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Thread: Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT System

  1. #501

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    Keep throwing red herrings into the debate.

    Read the thread title. This is about a privately funded gondola concept from Old Strathcona to DT. Nothing more. It is not the final nail in ETS's coffin or the end of the world.

    Sit down and relax Chicken Little...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 08-06-2018 at 05:01 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  2. #502
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Do you have any idea how inconvenient DATS is? And how expensive it is to move one person, for the COE?
    Somebody has a clue. And not every senior can get Dats.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  3. #503
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    ^^ Nailed it.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  4. #504

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    ^ ETS's coffin??? LOL
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  5. #505

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    “Uniquely well suited”, “best” (see below)

    Nice sentiments, maybe even cold-hard-rational positions but that means nothing. Decision making most often comes down to the decision makers’ most subjective feelings and fears. That’s why it makes a lot of sense for people to not get emotionally or even rationally attached to any idea. Some things just aren’t going to happen. (A corollary is that warnings about some things that are to some extent likely to happen similarly get ignored.).

    Jumping on a bandwagon to nowhere is just a waste of one’s time. The unconventional will simply not fly.

    The success of the accidental beach is a great example of our, when I see it, I’ll believe it, thinking processes.

    The idea of an artificial beach being both possible and popular here was presented (by me and maybe others on c2e and more importantly by someone at the City. That City proposal even got costed out and, as often happens with ideas slated for the killing floor, got costed into some stratospherically high sand mixed with gold dust proposal which then rightly got axed. (Conversely, ideas with buy-in, like convention centres, etc. get costed out at half their ultimate cost.)

    The point though is that wherever the beach idea came up, it met ridicule and comments that no one would use it, etc. (Same with the funicular, etc.) Seeing is believing is how everyone makes some decisions in their lives. (It rules the stock and housing markets.) So many ideas simply won’t happen here until, or if, that ‘wave of popularity’ reaches us.



    Gondola is best transit option between downtown and Old Strathcona, advisory board says | CBC News

    In a report, the board suggests a gondola would be uniquely well-suited to connect commuters with downtown and Old Strathcona.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...dola-1.4688038
    Last edited by KC; 09-06-2018 at 07:28 AM.

  6. #506

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    KC wrote
    (Conversely, ideas with buy-in, like convention centres, etc. get costed out at half their ultimate cost.)
    Actually I believe that the convention center was costed at 33 million and ended up at costing $101 million, some three times the cost.

    Overall you are right. If the administration likes an idea, they will under cost it and once the project has been approved to the point of no return, then place all the add-ons and the budget balloons. If the administration is asked to look at an idea that they don't want, they will throw in every upfront cost and make the cost so high that will make it unpalatable.

    Projects that were budgeted low and costs ballooned.
    Practice track on former Clarke Stadium 5x+
    Fort Road TOD 10x+
    Convention Center 3x

    Projects that the COE budgeted everything to kill it.
    Electric trolleys $100m for 10 years
    Accidental beach
    BRT fiasco $$$ or $$$$ or $$$$$ whatever that means

    Chime in with more examples
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^ ETS's coffin??? LOL
    Nooooo, I meant that you got it right imo.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  8. #508

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    It is amazing to see how a good idea is run through a meat grinder to destroy it before even understanding what an urban gondola is and both the benefits and see the many successful applications.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  9. #509
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    I think I'd rather have the gondola privately operated and maintained, given this transportation infrastructure may require specialized personnel.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  10. #510

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    Yes. Most importantly the financial risk is all on them. If they go bankrupt, the gondola can be bought by another company or the COE. Otherwise it could be dismantled and sold. Very little impact or risk.

    I think it all depends on a good fare structure, possibly allowing ETS transfers and fares.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  11. #511
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    I don't think the Edmonton Gondola concept/story will ever go away anytime soon.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  12. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Yes. Most importantly the financial risk is all on them. If they go bankrupt, the gondola can be bought by another company or the COE. Otherwise it could be dismantled and sold. Very little impact or risk.

    I think it all depends on a good fare structure, possibly allowing ETS transfers and fares.
    I don't think its that dependent on fare structure at all. People will pay differential amounts of $ just for the view, to ride it, bring the kids on and do that. So theres that segment, theres a tourist segment, and theres a commuter segment. They could probably even do different pricing levels for different demand or peak times of day and/or offer passes just like any other form of transportation. I certainly would have no expectation that this should be ETS transferable. You generally expect to pay something for such convenience. I don't see how it makes any sense for a private operator to do any favors on ETS transfers.

    Sure would be some revenue streams though aside from fare. Advertising on the cars, inside the cars, sponsorship potentials. Maybe even have pubs and places sponsor for Friday/Saturday promotional pub fares to and from DT to Whyte. Kind of a pub crawl except a bit more exciting. The operators may want to get on ground level with some places like Joeys, or chain places that do ample business in different areas of the city and see if they are interested in coming on board, excuse pun. This would draw even more people to Whyte Avenue, and to the DT. This should have DT and Old Strathcona backing.

    If they built something like this I don't think it could fail. It would be a much loved thing to do in Edmonton as well as being a fantastic commuter option and entertainment option (going to) for so many people.
    Last edited by Replacement; 09-06-2018 at 07:20 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  13. #513

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    ETS fares are 55% subsidized by the taxpayer. There are other cities such as Atlanta that have both private and public bus fleets that share fare revenue and get a shard of tax payer subsidies based upon ridership counts.

    I see no problem if a person used their ETS bus pass to board a gondola and the private company gets a credit for every fare. This is an avoided cost for the city. The key is an agreed formula as a contracted service. If the ticket purchased is only for the gondola, they get to keep the full fare and maybe a small subsidy. If they accept an ETS transfer or pass, they get an agreed rate. The trick is a balanced formula that both sides can agree to up front before they construct a single pylon.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 09-06-2018 at 07:38 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  14. #514

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    Good pointsbsbout the flexibility to offer different rate packages.

    I’d guess that commuters would be a prime focus to provide a stable predictable cash flow to cover financing costs. Lacking an ETS owner would hurt demand without a seemless process. Having to buy a second season pass would kill a lot of interest.

    Maybe shoppers and the lunch and bar crowds could be counted on at some base demand level. Most other sources of ridership would be volatile, unpredictable, seasonal, fickle, you name it. Special events, festivals, game night, and other demand could present staffing and timing issues.
    Last edited by KC; 09-06-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  15. #515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ETS fares are 55% subsidized by the taxpayer. There are other cities such as Atlanta that have both private and public bus fleets that share fare revenue and get a shard of tax payer subsidies based upon ridership counts.

    I see no problem if a person used their ETS bus pass to board a gondola and the private company gets a credit for every fare. This is an avoided cost for the city. The key is an agreed formula as a contracted service. If the ticket purchased is only for the gondola, they get to keep the full fare and maybe a small subsidy. If they accept an ETS transfer or pass, they get an agreed rate. The trick is a balanced formula that both sides can agree to up front before they construct a single pylon.
    Ahh, gotcha. I would be on board (again) heh, with a kick back credit for every fare but can't see the COE going for that. They seem pretty intent on not helping this. Its a good idea though and the avoided cost for the city is an interesting argument.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  16. #516

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    ETS knows the costs per passenger per kilometer. They have it on their website. When the transportation department wanted ETS to make a major detour for months while rebuilding the Whitemud Bridge, ETS demanded an interdepartment budget adjustment for the calculated extra expenses. The Transportation Department decided it was cheaper to make a shortcut from Fox Drive to avoid the extra costs.

    The COE has plenty of bean counters that know the metrics.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  17. #517

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    Tyranny of small decisions - Wikipedia
    Excerpt:

    “The event that first suggested the tyranny of small decisions to Kahn was the withdrawal of passenger railway services in Ithaca, New York. The railway was the only reliable way to get in and out of Ithaca. It provided services regardless of conditions, in fair weather and foul, during peak seasons and off-peak seasons. The local airline and bus company skimmed the traffic when conditions were favourable, leaving the trains to fill in when conditions were difficult. The railway service was eventually withdrawn, because the collective individual decisions made by travellers did not provide the railway with the revenue it needed to cover its incremental costs. According to Kahn, this suggests a hypothetical economic test of whether the service should have been withdrawn.
    ...”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrann...mall_decisions

  18. #518

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    What Munich's Gondola Proposal Gets Right - CityLab

    Excerpt

    ďIn Munich, the future of public transit might be up in the air. This month, the city is discussing a plan to create a new 4.5-kilometer gondola link in the northern part of the city, linking two districts on the internal beltway that are currently poorly connected for everyone except drivers.

    Supported by the mayor, the regional transit minister, and even the opposition parties in the cityís assembly, itís a plan that has a strong likelihood of being built.

    Itís still perhaps a little unexpected: Munich is a flat city with a good public transit network. ...Ē



    https://www.citylab.com/transportati...ramway/565493/

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