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Thread: Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT System

  1. #101

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    In Edmonton we are only granted two publoc transit options. Either more buses or more LRT.

    Never a third option.
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  2. #102
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    Ok, way too many posts to respond. Thanks for your replies Edmonton PRT

    ^ Its not a case of narrow minds of modes of transportation. We already have the streetcar on the HLB.

    I'm just not a cheerleader for everything the City of Edmonton does, including the so called Edmonton project. I more or less outlined my pet peeve about the gondola, and its not going to be a one way across the North Saskatchewan either. Wait for part 2 to happen on the other side of the HLB. Oh and wait for the art projects to be commissioned for the gondola project. We got to have some of that, right?

    What's next having the Red Bull ice track go across the river? Oops, better not give council any more hair brained idea's.

    And how does revising a failed idea that happened decades ago be imaginative? The only good part about this funicular was that at least the city of Edmonton had the good sense to consult with the River Valley Alliance.
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  3. #103

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    The streetcar across the HLB is not a part of our public transportation system. I have enjoyed it several times. It is not useful for commuters and daily use.
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  4. #104
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    Also, we're not Rio, we're not the Swiss Alps, or Whistler. I'd hate to ride on this thing on a windy day and we get a lot of wind here in the city.

    Edmonton is stacking up to look too much like a junkyard imo.

    Edmonton PRT: i like your posts in this, thank you and I'm all in favour of alternative modes of transportation. I like the bike lanes.

    What's next a hot air balloon ride tethered to cables? (Shhh, quiet envaneo maybe the City hasn't thought of that yet.)

    Henderson, Keen and Nickle are the more reasonable voices on council. I hope none of them voted on these hair brained schemes.
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  5. #105

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    More wind than Whistler????
    Give me a break.

    They have gondola city transit in London, New York and Portland Oregon. Your negativity to everything is noted.
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  6. #106
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    I'm not negative to everything here at c2e. Just to stupid not needed things like a make work project like this

    How about spending money on lowering transit rates instead. The river valley is not a amusement park. A gondola across the river is going to be slow.

    Your right about one thing. I don't get out much.

    And yes, I've seen the video's.
    Last edited by envaneo; 11-03-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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  7. #107

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    The gondola would be about 3 times faster than current bus service. A lot better than the Millwoods LRT that costs so much and only a couple of minutes faster.

    It would not be an amusement ride or a tourist only project it would be designed as a serious high capacity, convenient public transit route to connect with the LRT and expandable.
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  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Also, we're not Rio, we're not the Swiss Alps, or Whistler. I'd hate to ride on this thing on a windy day and we get a lot of wind here in the city.

    Edmonton is stacking up to look too much like a junkyard imo.

    Edmonton PRT: i like your posts in this, thank you and I'm all in favour of alternative modes of transportation. I like the bike lanes.

    What's next a hot air balloon ride tethered to cables? (Shhh, quiet envaneo maybe the City hasn't thought of that yet.)

    Henderson, Keen and Nickle are the more reasonable voices on council. I hope none of them voted on these hair brained schemes.
    You hate riding on a gondola? The only person I ever met like that had an extreme phobia of heights. For most people they absolutely love it. So much so that standard fare for a gondola ride now in the Rockies is what 50bucks and with long lineups to do it.

    A gondola isn't any hair brained scheme. Several outlying neighborhoods in Rio now have this kind of transport and its working fine, is unparalleled, and nothing matches it for efficiency. Nor were the lines built as some kind of Rio posh. They were built to link outlying areas.

    For Crossing our river or river valley conveyance particularly its the best way to go.

    Imagine if our visitors yesterday to our city that were here for Crashed Ice could just ride a Gondola from Jasper Avenue cross river to Strathcona etc. I guess we could keep building really expensive bridges or more freeways, or spend fortunes on LRT lines or do something really simply and efficient to do, like a smart Gondola route. It would be perfect for our wide and deep river valley system.
    Last edited by Replacement; 11-03-2018 at 05:07 PM.
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  9. #109

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    Actually envaneo inferred that he/she had never ridden in one.
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  10. #110

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    I was a couple of times in Stowe Vermont skiing or hiking and they have a 450 meter long free gondola to take you from one lodge to the other ski area, distribute parking areas and just to reduce pedestrians crossing the highway. It runs silently so even my wife did not notice it running overhead. If a private enterprise can build this, the cost must be quite reasonable to install. They also have one at Mont Tremblant.

    Stowe OverEasy 3,400 passengers per hour. Almost equal to a 4 car LRT consist on a 15 minute frequency
    Note small poles





    The drive system at one end is a bit noisy because it is diesel, not electric.


    Lots of photos at https://liftblog.com/over-easy-stowe-vt/
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 11-03-2018 at 06:39 PM.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Actually envaneo inferred that he/she had never ridden in one.
    Correct, I never have. And yes I don't like heights but this isn't about me.

    Nice images btw

    ^ As I said previously, the river valley is not an amusement park. But my opinion doesn't matter, I guess. I'll trey and keep an open mind.

    I could see something like this in the city, just not over the river valley.

    Could something like this even replace the WLRT? Just not over the river valley.
    Last edited by envaneo; 11-03-2018 at 09:43 PM.
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  12. #112

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    Small issue with figuring out over the river rescues.


    Cologne cable car accident: Up to 100 trapped in gondola

    “...
    Transport and fire department officials say that as many as 100 passengers, including children and elderly citizens, were left stranded.

    Some are stuck in cable cars over the river which are not accessible with the fire engine ladders.

    Around half of those have currently been lifted down to safety, with crews being recruited from outside the area to assist with the operation.

    Witnesses report that fire crews are using a mobile crane to bring down the first of them.
    ...”


    “She said: 'They are in the best hands at the Cologne Fire Brigade. Something like this has never happened before.'

    The mayor added that she has used the cable car several times and has no concerns about the system because of the incident.

    In Cologne, gondolas have been hovering over the Rhine for 60 years.

    The cable car has always been a popular means of transport in the city for locals, connecting the zoo to the Rheinpark on the opposite side of the river.”


    However, the cableway, which opened in 1957 to the opening of the Bundesgartenschau, is regarded as a tourist attraction.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Cologne.html

    Sky Tower gondola reaches the ground after being stranded for hours
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1YiepnVjg


    Hundreds of skiers trapped in chair lifts after gondola breaks down in French Alps

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8127661.html

    150 skiers rescued after being trapped in chair lifts in French Alps | World news | The Guardian

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ch-alps-resort



    Breakdown on gondola leaves skiers stranded - The Globe and Mail
    Dozens of skiers, many of them children, were trapped for hours in the dark and cold yesterday when a gondola stopped abruptly high above a Lake Louise ski resort.

    It took resort officials more than five hours to pull the stranded passengers off the string of cars stretching from the bottom of the ski hill to the top of the mountain.

    But by 8:50 p.m., they said everyone was off and the most severe injuries were a few cases of frostbite.


    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle18246293/

    100 people stuck on mountain as winds stall Jasper Skytram

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...park-1.4274043



    Passengers stranded 90 metres in the air as London's new cable car breaks down | London Evening Standard

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...n-7976314.html


    Pretty freakish:

    Nine killed in cable car plunge - Telegraph
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/149...ar-plunge.html



    Category:Cable car disasters - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego..._car_disasters




    Everyone remember this one? (And it was their second disaster!)

    Cavalese cable car disaster (1998 ) - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavale...ter_(199:cool:
    Last edited by KC; 11-03-2018 at 10:56 PM.

  13. #113

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    Interesting:



    Gondola lift

    Urban transport Edit

    While gondola lifts are traditionally used for ski resort purposes, in recent years they are finding increased usage in urban environments. Cable cars used for urban transit include the Metrocable in Medellín, Colombia; Portland Aerial Tram in Portland, Oregon, United States; Metrocable in Caracas, Venezuela; Trolcable in Mérida, Venezuela; Cable Aéreo in Manizales, Colombia; Mi Teleférico in La Paz, Bolivia; Mexicable in the State of Mexico, Mexico; Yenimahalle-Şentepe teleferik in Ankara, Turkey; and the Emirates Air Line in London, UK.[5] The Metrocable systems in Medellin and Caracas are fully integrated with the public transit network which provides passengers the ability to seamlessly transfer to the local metro lines.[6]

    In terms of urban gondola systems for the future, TransLink in Metro Vancouver has proposed to build a gondola up Burnaby Mountain to Simon Fraser University in an announcement in September, 2010.[7] The project was sidelined in 2014, [8] but was revived in 2017.[9]

    In late 2012, a widespread aerial gondola system was proposed for Austin, Texas in an effort to expand mass transit options in the rapidly growing city.[10] The proposal was rejected by the local transit agency in 2017.[11]

    A proposed gondola system in Montreal was ultimately rejected by the Old Port of Montreal.[12]

    Disney Skyliner is a gondola lift system which began construction in 2017 at Walt Disney World in Florida. When completed, the system will connect two theme parks with several Disney-operated hotels.

    List of accidents
    ...”


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondola_lift
    Aerial tramway - Wikipedia
    Terminology Edit

    Because of the proliferation of such systems in the Alpine regions of Europe, the French and German names, téléphérique and Seilbahn, respectively, are often also used in an English language context. Cable car is the usual term in British English, as in British English the word tramway generally refers to a railed street tramway while in American English, cable carmay additionally refer to a cable-pulled street tramway with detachable vehicles; e.g., San Francisco's cable cars. As such, careful phrasing is necessary to prevent confusion. It is also sometimes called a ropeway or even incorrectly referred to as a gondola lift. A gondola lift has cabins suspended from a continuously circulating cable whereas aerial trams simply shuttle back and forth on cables.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_tramway
    Last edited by KC; 11-03-2018 at 11:08 PM.

  14. #114
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    ^^ Seems i struck a nerve

    ^ And then some.

    However i got to admit as an alternate form of transportation, the Gondola idea for me at least has some initial appeal. Except in the river valley.

    This could even be another alternative to having a bridge go over the Yellowhead at Blatchford and a lot cheaper then a bridge and something that can be built as a temporary solution to the St. Albert LRT if not replace the concept altogether.

    Hmm.
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  15. #115

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    No at all. Go back to my earlier posts. I like the idea. I liked it when it was proposed here on c2e over a decade ago. However there will be problems. Moreover I’m not the type of person that likes the people who push all the potential problems under the rug in order to get buy-in. It is dishonest and repulsive behaviour. There will be issues and they need to be either designed out or prepared for. Moreover when the odd, very rare accident happens it shouldn’t be blown out of all proportion. Every day we accept auto fatalities with just a short passing note on the news. In terms of fatalities we probably lose more people to road accidents in a week in Alberta, maybe in just Edmonton, than we’d ever lose via a Gondola.

    We’d also face issues with drunks etc harassing people on the gondolas. New processes would have to be developed to deal with such situations where people are essentially trapped for the duration.

  16. #116

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    Agreed. No need to hide anything. There has been gondola accidents and deaths. Respectfully there have been LRT accidents, deaths and attacks on trains and in stations.

    What we need to do is be objective and balance both the risks and the benefits.

    Crossing the river has been an eternal issue in Edmonton and has separated two business, employment nodes and tourist zones. Any visitor to Edmonton who stays downtown would find it difficult to find out what public transit would take them to Old Strathcona for example. Even for Edmontonians, the typical transit time to go from Rogers Place to Old Strathcona by bus or LRT is 30 to 45 minutes, a distance that can be walked in 53 minutes, a straight line distance of only 3.1 km.

    The idea that Edmonton might spend a billion dollars to build a new LRT bridge and tracks that will be a huge disruption when a gondola could be built for an estimated $25M to $50M and operated for a fraction of the cost, in fact a total cost less than just debt servicing alone. We have to stop with the two option mantra; either LRT or more buses. Even now the City has moved from high floor to low floor LRt and is looking at other train options for the future, all with lines and fleets that are not interchangeable and require massive garages and service buildings and a huge infrastructure. There are more options that provide better service and no waiting and can be built far quicker.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 12-03-2018 at 07:57 AM.
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  17. #117

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    18,000 passengers an hour!

    Largest urban cable car soars over 'desperate' commuters of La Paz | Cities | The Guardian
    2014
    “The region's new $234m (£140m) cable car system, which whisks passengers between sleek modern terminals in controlled silence, was given its first public outing this week. When all three lines are running they will be able to transport 18,000 passengers an hour over nearly 11 kilometres – making it the longest urban cable-car system in the world. It’s an innovation many Bolivians hope will turn their uncomfortable, seemingly interminable commute into a quick and modern ride.”

    ...
    It is only 10km as the crow flies, but the winding, zigzagging, traffic-clogged trip down the precipitous mountainside takes more than an hour.


    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...la-paz-bolivia
    Last edited by KC; 12-03-2018 at 08:36 AM.

  18. #118

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    Switzerland’s incredible cable cars, gondolas and funiculars
    By Emily Rose Mawson, November 13 2015
    Excerpt:


    Titlis Rotair gondola

    This is the world’s first fully rotating gondola, which slowly spins around 360 degrees during its five-minute trip towards the summit of Mount Titlis from the Engelberg resort.

    Stanserhorn Cabrio

    Flying double decker bus meets convertible car? The so-called CabriO is somewhere along those lines.

    https://www.timeout.com/switzerland/...and-funiculars
    Bolding was mine

  19. #119

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    50 million passengers in 2 years!


    11 urban gondolas changing the way people move - Curbed
    2017

    in cities like La Paz, Bolivia or Cali, Colombia, gondolas are also being used to address urban inequities and drastically cut commute times. By linking poorer areas with more prosperous neighborhoods, gondolas have the possibility to break down barriers of class and race.

    According to recent articles in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times, aerial cable-propelled transit systems are being considered in Brooklyn, Washington, Chicago, San Diego, Seattle, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Baton Rouge, Austin, Tampa Bay and Miami. In light of the potential boom of gondola projects here in the United States, we explore 11 gondolas around the world that have changed how peopl...


    The Gondola Project reports that the Mi Teleférico has transported 50 million passengers in 2 years of operations and saved commuters 652 million minutes. The project was so successful that the city is now planning to build 7 more lines that will extend the system by 20 km. According to the New York Times, La Paz is the first city to use cable cars as the "backbone of a mass-transit system."

    https://www.curbed.com/2017/9/21/163...le-cars-cities

  20. #120
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    I'm betting it takes years before we see these, if at all..

  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Crossing the river has been an eternal issue in Edmonton and has separated two business, employment nodes and tourist zones. Any visitor to Edmonton who stays downtown would find it difficult to find out what public transit would take them to Old Strathcona for example. Even for Edmontonians, the typical transit time to go from Rogers Place to Old Strathcona by bus or LRT is 30 to 45 minutes, a distance that can be walked in 53 minutes, a straight line distance of only 3.1 km.

    The idea that Edmonton might spend a billion dollars to build a new LRT bridge and tracks that will be a huge disruption when a gondola could be built for an estimated $25M to $50M and operated for a fraction of the cost, in fact a total cost less than just debt servicing alone. We have to stop with the two option mantra; either LRT or more buses. Even now the City has moved from high floor to low floor LRt and is looking at other train options for the future, all with lines and fleets that are not interchangeable and require massive garages and service buildings and a huge infrastructure. There are more options that provide better service and no waiting and can be built far quicker.
    This is, for me, the #1 reason for this whole commuter gondola: A reliable and consistent 10 minute connection from Jasper Ave to Whyte Ave/Gateway...built at literally a fraction of the cost of LRT.

    Right now any resident currently living in Strathcona or Downtown and wishing to visit their counterparts, the first thought would be to drive. Taking the bus is not the first thing that would come to mind for anyone who has a vehicle. And if they did, its about a 30 minute trip. Especially during rush hour trying to go from Whyte Ave/Gateway to Downtown...it's almost an adventure with any form of travel - whereas a gondola would be an easy 10 minute commute.

    Give a consistent travel option to connect downtown to Strathcona and people will use it.

    Heck, if detractors really want to speak about winter, in winter this thing would be more reliable given how bad the hills can get sometimes with buses not able to get up McDougal hill. Traffic leading in and out of downtown is snail pace the two days after a big dump. The gondola will just glide over it all.

    Again, while the Edmonton Project wants this at Shaw, I envision it on MacDonald drive...right across from the funicular. Reason being, the closer it is to 101 Street, the more potential it has to service the residential condos now congregating on 103rd and 104th Streets.

  22. #122

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    I agree with a more central station than at the Shaw.

    MacDonald drive works OK but towards 101 or 102 streets seems better to me than over by Hotel Mac.

    102 street would be ideal if you can thread it up the street - it would probably need fairly close-spaced towers to do that. 102 Street has lots of room and can easily spare some for a station and accesses.

    How high would it need to be over ex-telus field to avoid issues? a 102 route would be right over the dugouts, but that might be better than a further east route that goes right over existing homes.
    There can only be one.

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post

    This is, for me, the #1 reason for this whole commuter gondola: A reliable and consistent 10 minute connection from Jasper Ave to Whyte Ave/Gateway...built at literally a fraction of the cost of LRT.
    ...*snip*
    This is critical. As a tourist/ weekend attraction it would still have some value, but as a legitimate transit option it would be worth it even at higher price - at $100m it would still be just a fraction of the cost of an LRT option.
    There can only be one.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    I still love this idea.

    Connecting End of Steel Park (Old Strathcona) to Rossdale (Expo site) to the North bank of the river (downtown) is brilliant. I'd like to see the north tower built right at Telus Plaza. They would probably even be open to buying the naming rights of it (thus reducing overall costs). This would connect the LRT (Central Station) to the Gondola (Telus Station?) to the River Taxi at Rossdale going to South Campus (other Expo site).

    Maybe Epcor would even pay for naming rights for the Rossdale stop?
    From an old Gondola daydreaming thread which featured one Mr. Don Iveson in 2009.

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...hlight=gondola

  25. #125

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    Until we can get the gondola up, we should run increased bus service between Downtown and Whyte Avenue. As I stated in another thread, we should run a high frequency copy of the portion of the number 7 bus route route between Macewan and the U of A . If route pictured below was altered slightlystop along 104 avenue in front of Rogers, it would be twenty one minutes from Roger's Place to Whye Ave and 103 st. Run the route as a late night, high frequency route, and you'd meet some of the needs of the gondola.

    Quote Originally Posted by Google Maps
    As a bonus, this would give direct bus access between Churchill Square/Edmonton City Centre east and Roger's Place, to supplement the LRT.
    Last edited by Ustauk; 12-03-2018 at 12:00 PM.

  26. #126

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    ^Heck, you can wait 10 minutes for your bus and by that time you could be at the other end of the gondola ride!

    To me, the 103 street alignment into downtown because it is along the Rossdale road alignment on the west side of ex-Telus Field, and a station at 103rd st and Jasper Ave. This could be coming inside on a side mounted station to the 3rd or 4th floor of the Bay Building. This would be an indoor station that would be a direct inside connection to the LRT Bay Station, a huge plus. I feel that the terminis at the north end should be the Rogers Place itself, possibly indoors at the end of the teardrop. We have to think big and with the best possible connectivity.

    On the south end, you have a perfect location for the south station. The vacant strip, directly on the east side of the public washroom where the CPR tracks used to be, right on Whyte Ave! Another benefit, there is a huge 200m long parking lot a half block to the north, adjacent to the Strathcona Market. This parking lot is empty all week long except on Saturdays. This would allow commuters to park on the south side and reduce bridge and DT traffic.

    Instead of ripping up streets, sewers and having to close streets to construct LRT and then preventing left turns, losing lanes and interfering with normal pedestrian and auto traffic we are all so familiar with LRT. Instead, the gondola alignment is as perfect and as straight forward than if you had planned for it decades ago. I see no major impediment to such an idea except in the minds of the decision makers who have a vested interest in the status quo or costly mega public transit projects that do not pass the smell test.
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  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post

    This is, for me, the #1 reason for this whole commuter gondola: A reliable and consistent 10 minute connection from Jasper Ave to Whyte Ave/Gateway...built at literally a fraction of the cost of LRT.
    ...*snip*
    This is critical. As a tourist/ weekend attraction it would still have some value, but as a legitimate transit option it would be worth it even at higher price - at $100m it would still be just a fraction of the cost of an LRT option.
    I see no reason why it should cost over $50M except if the COE get taken to the cleaners by consultants and profiteers.
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  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Until we can get the gondola up, we should run increased bus service between Downtown and Whyte Avenue. As I stated in another thread, we should run a high frequency copy of the portion of the number 7 bus route route between Macewan and the U of A . If route pictured below was altered slightlystop along 104 avenue in front of Rogers, it would be twenty one minutes from Roger's Place to Whye Ave and 103 st. Run the route as a late night, high frequency route, and you'd meet some of the needs of the gondola.

    Quote Originally Posted by Google Maps
    As a bonus, this would give direct bus access between Churchill Square/Edmonton City Centre east and Roger's Place, to supplement the LRT.
    Notice the frequency of the #7? Every 30 minutes. If you just missed the bus, your 21 minute trip just became 51 minutes at -15C. That is why people hate buses. In 51 minutes you can walk there or you can go into the pub and drink for 30 minutes and keep warm.
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  29. #129
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    ^The exact root of why people don't take the bus in Edmonton is frequency. Nobody wants to wait 25 minutes for a bus.

  30. #130

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    ^ Correct. If you miss your bus, your teacher does not let you into class. If you work, you can lose your job.

    On the other hand, we cannot have 10 minute frequency since it triples the cost of drivers, triples the emissions and triples the size of the fleet, and buses end up running near empty. Even at 10 minute frequency, with 60 passenger bus loads, your bidirectional capacity is only 1,200 passengers/hour.

    As an alternative, Gondola examples such as Mi Teleférico have 12 second frequency with a 10 passenger capacity, the bidirectional capacity is 5 times that of buses at 6,000 passengers/hour!
    The labour cost, energy required to operate and fleet size remains constant. And instead of building a huge and expensive bridge across the river, you have two wire ropes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I'm betting it takes years before we see these, if at all..
    These things take time to design and build, plus political will, supply and demand and an appetite to build them. I'm ok with a Gondola system provided there is safety/security for passengers.

    I agree with you, we're probably a decade or more away from seeing a Gondola system here in Edmonton. I'm not holding my breath it will happen anytime soon. What we're going to get in the short term is a Gondola across the river, one on each side of the HLB. Uggh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    ^The exact root of why people don't take the bus in Edmonton is frequency. Nobody wants to wait 25 minutes for a bus.
    During peak hours, wait times are rarely 25 minutes for an ETS bus. Off peak, plan your trip. I use ETS bus tracker.
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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^ Correct. If you miss your bus, your teacher does not let you into class. If you work, you can lose your job.

    On the other hand, we cannot have 10 minute frequency since it triples the cost of drivers, triples the emissions and triples the size of the fleet, and buses end up running near empty. Even at 10 minute frequency, with 60 passenger bus loads, your bidirectional capacity is only 1,200 passengers/hour.

    As an alternative, Gondola examples such as Mi Teleférico have 12 second frequency with a 10 passenger capacity, the bidirectional capacity is 5 times that of buses at 6,000 passengers/hour!
    The labour cost, energy required to operate and fleet size remains constant. And instead of building a huge and expensive bridge across the river, you have two wire ropes.
    A Gondola system like that here in Edmonton i opine would be excellent. Something like that beyond Nait to St. Albert would be cool instead of a trench system that was proposed earlier. It won't happen in our lifetimes Edmonton PRT
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^ Correct. If you miss your bus, your teacher does not let you into class. If you work, you can lose your job.

    On the other hand, we cannot have 10 minute frequency since it triples the cost of drivers, triples the emissions and triples the size of the fleet, and buses end up running near empty. Even at 10 minute frequency, with 60 passenger bus loads, your bidirectional capacity is only 1,200 passengers/hour.

    As an alternative, Gondola examples such as Mi Teleférico have 12 second frequency with a 10 passenger capacity, the bidirectional capacity is 5 times that of buses at 6,000 passengers/hour!
    The labour cost, energy required to operate and fleet size remains constant. And instead of building a huge and expensive bridge across the river, you have two wire ropes.
    A Gondola system like that here in Edmonton i opine would be excellent. Something like that beyond Nait to St. Albert would be cool instead of a trench system that was proposed earlier. It won't happen in our lifetimes Edmonton PRT

    Good!

  35. #135

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    I can't think of anywhere other than river crossings where a tram would make sense in Edmonton. After the Whyte ave to downtown connection there's no great opportunity, there just aren't many places where there's density or great transit connections close enough to the river bank.
    There can only be one.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    ^The exact root of why people don't take the bus in Edmonton is frequency. Nobody wants to wait 25 minutes for a bus.
    During peak hours, wait times are rarely 25 minutes for an ETS bus. Off peak, plan your trip. I use ETS bus tracker.
    I do plan my trip, and I have to wait 20+ virtually every day. A planned trip doesn't account for LRT delays (which are frequent) or the mosh pit of a crowd trying to move up and down the narrow staircases at Century Park.

    Unless I leave work 15 minutes early (i.e. before the end of the work day), this is just my reality.

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Until we can get the gondola up, we should run increased bus service between Downtown and Whyte Avenue. As I stated in another thread, we should run a high frequency copy of the portion of the number 7 bus route route between Macewan and the U of A . If route pictured below was altered slightlystop along 104 avenue in front of Rogers, it would be twenty one minutes from Roger's Place to Whye Ave and 103 st. Run the route as a late night, high frequency route, and you'd meet some of the needs of the gondola.

    Quote Originally Posted by Google Maps
    As a bonus, this would give direct bus access between Churchill Square/Edmonton City Centre east and Roger's Place, to supplement the LRT.
    Notice the frequency of the #7? Every 30 minutes. If you just missed the bus, your 21 minute trip just became 51 minutes at -15C. That is why people hate buses. In 51 minutes you can walk there or you can go into the pub and drink for 30 minutes and keep warm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    ^The exact root of why people don't take the bus in Edmonton is frequency. Nobody wants to wait 25 minutes for a bus.
    That's why I said it would have to be a high frequency route. Run it every fifteen minutes during peak hours, and also run extra buses around game times and bar closings. I would love to see the gondola built, but until then a higher frequency connection between downtown and Whyte would be useful. Plus you'd get extra high frequency busing along Whyte Avenue as a bonus.

  38. #138

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    The route info was for 12:16 pm. Not peak times. There may be not enough demand to warrant more frequent service. This is the point. It is a vicious circle, infrequent service results in low ridership, which results in lower frequency which results in lower ridership.

    The only way out is to offer a better service that is faster and more frequent. Gondolas can do that and have a unique 'bird's eye' travel experience that buses or even car travel cannot compete.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  39. #139
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    As a tourist draw or viewpoint kind of idea, a gondola in edmonton is useless. Huge waste of money. But as a replacement for LRT or transit, it probably has merit.

    I don't think that transit was the original intent of the competition though.

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    The route info was for 12:16 pm. Not peak times. There may be not enough demand to warrant more frequent service. This is the point. It is a vicious circle, infrequent service results in low ridership, which results in lower frequency which results in lower ridership.

    The only way out is to offer a better service that is faster and more frequent. Gondolas can do that and have a unique 'bird's eye' travel experience that buses or even car travel cannot compete.
    I would love if we could get the gondola. It would be a great tourist attraction, and a great means of public transit.


    Nonetheless, the MacEwan to UofA bus might fill the need in the meantime. Driving time in a car from Roger's to 103 st is 12 minutes at non-peak hours. The twenty-one minutes on the proposed route between the two destinations included every stop on the current 7 route. If you made this a pure express route, going MacEwan->Roger's->Churchill-> ATB/Telus -> 99 st -> 103 st -> 109 st -> U of A, you could decrease the trip time, and making this an express, BRT-like route might give demand needed to justify a 15 or 20 minute frequency. Hopefully you could combine this with transit signal priority to help the route move more smoothly, even at rush hour.

  41. #141

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    COOL!



    Glass-Floored Gondolas – Kitzbühel, Whistler, and Taipei
    Glass-floored cabins have been interspersed with regular opaque-floored cabins at gondolas in Kitzbühel, Whistler and Taipei. At it’s highest point Kitzbühel’s 3-S-Bahn gondola rises to 400m above the Austrian valley floor. Whistler’s Peak 2 Peak lift is even higher at 436m. Hope you’re not afraid of heights! In 2010 when the Maokong Gondola in Taipei introduced 30 glass-floored cabins, ridership doubled! The Maokong Gondola connects Taipei’s southern Muzha suburb and the mountainous Maokong area.

    http://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/0...eous-gondolas/
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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I'm betting it takes years before we see these, if at all..
    These things take time to design and build, plus political will, supply and demand and an appetite to build them. I'm ok with a Gondola system provided there is safety/security for passengers.

    I agree with you, we're probably a decade or more away from seeing a Gondola system here in Edmonton. I'm not holding my breath it will happen anytime soon. What we're going to get in the short term is a Gondola across the river, one on each side of the HLB. Uggh.
    I think its pie in the sky thinking,because the roads and back alleys aren't sexy enough for Edmonton's stupid mayor!

  43. #143
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    ^ LOL. Lately, I can't help but be sympathetic with you.

    As much as Left as she is, I miss Jan Reimer.
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  44. #144

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    Bumping my old 2012 post - which I’m sure some people hated because it revived this thread which had been dead since 2006






    Anyway, note the comparatives to LRT





    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Gondola possibility for Calgary is up in the air
    *
    *
    BY RICHARD CUTHBERTSON, POSTMEDIA NEWS FEBRUARY 15, 2012
    *
    "CALGARY — An advocate of bringing ski hill transportation to the congested urban setting says gondolas may be Calgary's solution to fill in the gaps in its public transit system..."

    "...Jen Malzer said a gondola system can start as low as $5 million per kilometre, while the same stretch of LRT typically runs between $20 million and $80 million, depending on the configuration..."


    http://www.canada.com/Gondola+possib...512/story.html

    see this earlier discussion...
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...read.php?t=527
    Wish I’d quoted more of the article as is typical - it seems to have vanished from the internet.



    Found this associates article from 2012:

    Share your urban gondola experiences – Calgary Herald

    http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...la-experiences



    Gondolas for Calgary touted as cost effective - Calgary - CBC News
    2012


    Skip to main content
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    "
    Gondolas for Calgary touted as cost effective
    CBC News
    February 15, 2012
    0 shares
    Some city planners think gondolas should become the next alternative mode of transportation in Calgary.

    si-cgy-medellin2-220
    Gondolas depart and approach a metro station in Medellin, Colombia. (Courtesy Steven Dale )
    Toronto-based Creative Urban Projects made a pitch for the idea at Fort Calgary on Wednesday.

    Steven Dale, who works with The Gondola Project — which does consulting projects on cable-propelled transit (CPT) systems — said gondolas make sense.

    "It’s a cost effective technology. You have less than one minute wait times ... and you have no traffic 25 feet in the air," he said.

    The idea has been examined before by Calgary officials.

    Calgary Transit proposed last year that a gondola run between a northwest LRT station and the Foothills Hospital and University of Calgary.
    ...


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tive-1.1202015

    Bolding mine
    Last edited by KC; 14-03-2018 at 06:48 PM.

  45. #145
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    ^ $5 million/Kilometer as opposed to $20-$80 in 2012 dollars?

    OMFG This city has money to burn. Nait could have been Gondolized without a Tunnel without all of the signaling issues.

    Thanks for this, I think.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  46. #146

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    But but but but but the NAIT line was shovel ready!!!

    Should have used the shovel to kill it and bury it before it started. Remind me, how much did it cost
    and how long did it take to run reliably?

    Also, how much is that new LRT garage? GTS does not need a garage.

    I think people are realizing that we were conditioned to believe the only alternatives we had were more buses or more LRT.

    As a cyclist, I would prefer to use my bike more often but placing a bike on a bus rack or on LRT is hardly practical and you can't during rush hours. That means if the weather is iffy or my trip is long or across the river I may decide to take my car. On a gondola, taking your bike is easy and I would use GTS and/or my bike way more often.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  47. #147

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    Again: 18,000 passengers a day!!!

    Why Latin America is seeing a cable-car boom - Subways in the sky
    October 26, 2017
    They appeal to both politicians and commuters

    https://www.economist.com/news/ameri...cable-car-boom

  48. #148

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    It is so popular that people wait in lines up 45 minutes long to take the gondolas in South America and they are responding with multiple new extensions and stations.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  49. #149

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    From another LRT thread

    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^^ That's getting ahead of the Rogers Place to Old Strathcona project with 3.1 km and my suggestion of 4-5 stations, Rogers, Bay/Jasper, Telus Field, maybe End of Steel and 103rd/Whyte. (I am not a fan of an End of Steel Park station)

    If they were to build two lines, one from Health Sciences LRT station to 103rd/Whyte and another to BD Mall LRT Station, here is a suggested station placement

    West Whyte
    1. Health Sciences LRT station
    2. 109th/Whyte
    2. Possibly 106th/Whyte
    4. 103rd/Whyte

    East Whyte
    4. 103rd/Whyte
    3. 99th/Whyte
    2. 92nd/Whyte (F. St. Jean)
    1. BD Mall LRT Station

    BTW, there are gondola systems that allow tight 90 degree turns. Something LRT cannot do.
    Actualy Councilor Tim Cartmell was saying earlier this week that such a cable car/Gondola system would have a stop at the University and one on Gateway blvd. Most likely the other stop would be at Bonnie Doon.

    I'm just wondering PRT how would the system be synced if someone wants to get off at say Gateway blvd or any station. do the Gondola cars just wait until that stop clears and moves forward or do the cars behind it continue and bunch up?
    Most modern gondolas are detachable from the line which is a major change how they operate. It allows cabins to slow, stop, detach and moved off line, switch from one line to another and now the lines can even turn 90 degree corners. http://gondolaproject.com/cornering/



    Since there are 10 to 20 second headways, cabins can be slowed and detached and other cabins can also be slowed to allow a minute or more delays without shutting down the line.

    Lego Version LOL

    It shows how the speed changes as it goes around
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  50. #150

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    Here are some other real videos



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yycEWZYlk8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8j3bF_LxIo

    Storage of extra cabins or off line loading/unloading of handicapped persons is possible



    I was in Switzerland in Torbel and Zermat and their gondola was totally wheelchair accessible without going off-line. .
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  51. #151
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    Hopefully the sliding doors on Gondola cars seal shut when they go across the river. Suicide jumps and all.
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  52. #152

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    Contrary to a ill informed belief that urban gondola transportation systems, GTS can have only two or three stations, here is an example of the very successful 4.9 km Mexicable system in Mexico City that has 7 stations and travels at 16km/hr making the trip in 17 minutes for a 42 cent fare. The system can move 6,000 passengers per hour and has a 11 second frequency that has moved 5 million riders since its opening in late 2016.




    Translated from http://www.mexicable.com/historia.php
    The Mexicable is a GREEN transport that works with electricity. It has two engines capable of generating more than one thousand horsepower each. The installation has a maximum capacity of 3,000 hour-time users which are transported in an agile, comfortable and safe way in its 185 cabins, achieving a journey in approximately 19 min. The cabins have a maximum capacity of 10 people, who have a privileged view of the urban environment, which has been enriched with 52 works of art made by international artists such as Farid Rueda, David Ortiz, Guido Van Helten and Jonh Pugh among others. .
    Safety for passengers is a key issue. The transport system has more than 2 thousand sensors whose main purpose is to guarantee its correct operation. It should be noted that this type of means of transport is one of the safest in the world.


    In terms of mobility and accessibility of users, it seeks to promote the use of bicycles. For this reason the stations have areas enabled with bicycle parking. The Mexicable has direct connection to the Mexibus line 4 in the direction of Tecámac - Indios Verdes, the latter being an important destination point.


    The Mexicable was designed to be a trigger for the economic and social development of the demarcation. It has been the source of more than 200 direct jobs. Generator of a better quality of life for the inhabitants, to date there are already more than 2 million people who have used this extraordinary means of transport, which marked the beginning of a new era in urban mobility.




    Video


    The full trip with intermediate stops
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7lFP25Rag
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  53. #153
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    ^ Way too advanced for some of our myopic civic leaders. Councilor Tim Cartmell gets it.


    Thanks for posting the above. Great video.
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  54. #154
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    One gondola proposed for Toronto's Don Valley:

    http://donvalleycablecar.com/
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  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Hopefully the sliding doors on Gondola cars seal shut when they go across the river. Suicide jumps and all.
    The doors close and open from the outside and latch shut. Someone on the inside can pry them open but usually results in damaging the doors and hinge system.

  56. #156
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    Suicides here in Edmonton have sadly made the news lately. Oxford have gone to great length to "suicide proof" some of their properties. Suicide is a controversial subject which is why the City of Edmonton had to modify the HLB. If anyone wanted to use the Gondola as a way to jump out, trust me the idea of wrecking the locking system wont enter their "minds" lord forbid that would happen.

    I'm a converted advocate of the Gondola system. PRT has shown me the light. However its always best to measure twice cut once.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  57. #157

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    I’ve always been on board with the idea of some sort of cable system through the valley. Now that it’s ‘proven’ to integrate with mass transit systems, it seems like a no brainer. In many ways it seems to be a lower risk lower cost, more flexible system than LRT.

    Moreover, integrating it seems like a surefire way to build a bigger, far nicer and far more interesting cable system than could be justified with an isolated run.
    Last edited by KC; 16-03-2018 at 06:29 AM.

  58. #158

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    On the issue of heating seats here’s what can be used:
    https://www.doppelmayr.com/en/components/seat-heating/


    With super fast charge batteries now on the horizon I imagine much more power in cabin will soon be technologically possible.

  59. #159

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    This morning the CBC radio show The Current is going to talk about Edmonton's Gondola project idea.


    I managed to catch it. Very interesting. Very sensible discussion about mixed solution approach to mass transit. (My thought was that this right tool for the job approach is like accepting both buses AND LRT in the system rather than just relying on the proven bus system alone.)

    A BRT system was mentioned as a Whyte Avenue solution.





    As an aside: it was disheartening that, of course, there was no mention whatsoever of c2e where these gondola threads ideas go back to 2006!!!

    The idea gets proposed and debated here a decade earlier yet the people that proposed it only thought of it and researched it via other sources. A sad testimony for homegrown, grassroots local discussions and idea dissemination.




    .
    Last edited by KC; 16-03-2018 at 09:23 AM.

  60. #160

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    Medellin Breaks Ground on 6th Urban Gondola « The Gondola Project

    http://gondolaproject.com/2018/03/09...urban-gondola/

  61. #161

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    New line, increased speeds and quadrupled capacity on existing line

    I guess the other 5 lines created a better Edmonton Medellin through effective, efficient and economical transit.

    Medellin has twice the population of Edmonton and runs both a metro rail and modern rail streetcar system.





    They have seen benefits of gondola transit systems (GTS) or Cable Propelled Transit (CPT) as stand alone systems or as feeders to their mass transit systems.




    Time for Edmonton to realize the benefits and opportunities.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 16-03-2018 at 09:58 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  62. #162

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    It's certainly a great way to go over the favelas where there is no planning, and no corridors to put proper LRT solutions through

  63. #163

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    Maybe if you had a reasoned argument, you could join into the debate. Your thoughtless disparagement is duly noted.

    I guess you have the same view of the gondolas over the favelas in London, England, Ankara, Turkey and Nizhny/Novgorod Russia?






    BTW, favelas are in Brazil, not Columbia, Mexico City, Bolivia, Portland, London, Singapore etc.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  64. #164

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    LRT analogy

    A US reporter that was touring a factory in the former East Germany where they made those god-awful noisy 2 cycle pollution spewing Trabant cars. He asked the worker how long he had been producing the model he was working. The worker said 20 years. The reporter asked they didn't make changes to improve the car. He said, "Why should I do that? I sell all I make"
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  65. #165

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    Something else to keep in mind is that there’s a lot of vested interests in seeing huge LRT expenditures take place, so potentially huge cost savings can work against such projects. Saving a billion dollars, or two or three ore four billion dollars means substantially lower spending and do fewer jobs, “vibrancy”, multiplier effects, future refurbishment spending, etc. It’s complex but the vested interests know how their bread is butttered so don’t expect a lot of buy in on unconventional projects.

    An example of the issues adopting new technologies presents might be the changing of street lighting over to LEDs. This project is stripping a lot of long term electricity expenditure away from the Alberta based utilities all the while causing large expenditure on the new fixtures which in turn is shipping millions of dollars to places like China. However the installation boosts short term jobs in the city and huge savings on the City’s books but at the cost of fewer long term Alberta based jobs mining coal etc.

  66. #166

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    A few comments. PRT mentioned the Mexico line with 6K riders per hour. That is interesting capacity. Much better than I think is generally thought the gondola systems are capable of.

    If I can contrast this with the Funicular experience I noted just last week at Red Bull. What occurred is that they had at 6;50pm CLOSED the SCC entrance to the event and diverted those with tickets to the two other gates. This meaning that around 1-2K people were simultaneously flooding to the Funicular/Stairs. Heres what immediately occurred (and I was witness to this) The first 30-40 people all lazily crammed into the Funicular. It wasn't moving because I think that the capacity and weight had been exceeded. It was full. The people were just standing there for awhile as I made a point of watching. Net effect is that the Funicular was quickly rendered obsolete due to the crowd and with EVERYBODY else having to take the stairs down.

    Now that's a system that can't take a load (albeit load conditions like this are rare) but the thing cost as much as a Gondola and nobody even questions the load or capacity of the system. I guess the stairs worked well, but the stairs we had prior would have worked just as well...

    Another comment on heating. Small cab Gondolas can heat up a bit just due to body temperature and on days with any sun are very comfortable to ride in. I don't know what heating is really required on most days.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  67. #167

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    Next, as mentioned Edmontons Wide swath deep river valley is a perfect obstacle use for Gondolas. Its very difficult to span our deep and wide river with bridges. This requires very long spans and incredible cost to provide top of bank to top of bank service.

    Conversely the SCC (or wherever) to Strathcona Bus Barns route would be a perfect use of a Gondola. This potentially being built with far less ripping out or intrusion that bridges require, does not interfere at all with traffic or other infrastructure and are better environmental solutions, better at moving people quickly, and effortlessly.

    Its the nature of our river valley that makes Gondolas such a good idea here. It always was something that should be done here rather than keep building new bridges or pedestrian bridges. I would hope there is some ability to use gondola cabs that can facilitate walk on bikes.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  68. #168

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    ^^ The stairs wouldn’t work well for people in wheelchairs. Moreover, why did so many able bodied people choose the funicular over the stairs?

    The gondola wouldn’t work well for people with a fear of heights.

    Trains don’t work well for people with claustrophobia...

    There’s always going to be something, some excuse for denigrating the different.


    As an aside note how streetcars and trolleys has to be done away with, and now we are coming full circle with what I think Ibgeard was going to be a low floor, frequent stop LRT down Whyte Ave.
    Last edited by KC; 16-03-2018 at 12:05 PM.

  69. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Something else to keep in mind is that there’s a lot of vested interests in seeing huge LRT expenditures take place, so potentially huge cost savings can work against such projects. Saving a billion dollars, or two or three ore four billion dollars means substantially lower spending and do fewer jobs, “vibrancy”, multiplier effects, future refurbishment spending, etc. It’s complex but the vested interests know how their bread is butttered so don’t expect a lot of buy in on unconventional projects.
    Are you suggesting that white elephants are a good investment?


    Well it could be said that you could just take the $2.2 Billion for 13km of LRT, and hand out $20 bills to people on the street, 30 bills per minute, 8 hours every day, 7 days a week FOR 20 YEARS! Economic benefits for everyone! Someone has to pay for that by raising your own taxes.

    The P3 contractor, the engineering group, the LRT fleet manufacturer, the ETS union monopoly and the COE Administration's pet project are the real intransigent groups that would kill a gondola project behind the scenes. We saw this in the Trolley bus fraud where they killed the trolleys using a sham test of hybrid diesel buses (a complete failure) just to kill a competing electric bus to allow an electric train that cost 10 times as much.

    I have no problem spending $2.2B on transit but not just for one slow 13km LRT line to the west end. If the average cost of GST is $25-$50M/km then, $2.2B/$37.5M = 58.7km of gondola lines, 450% greater coverage.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  70. #170

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    Some stills taken from a CTV news video.

    Source








  71. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    An example of the issues adopting new technologies presents might be the changing of street lighting over to LEDs. This project is stripping a lot of long term electricity expenditure away from the Alberta based utilities all the while causing large expenditure on the new fixtures which in turn is shipping millions of dollars to places like China. However the installation boosts short term jobs in the city and huge savings on the City’s books but at the cost of fewer long term Alberta based jobs mining coal etc.
    Except the City's own utility corporation is responsible for the streetlights & the swaps are done by existing EPCOR Technologies crews. EPCOR Technologies also handled the LED conversion of traffic lights here & in Calgary.

    https://www.epcor.com/products-servi...mentation.aspx
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  72. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Next, as mentioned Edmontons Wide swath deep river valley is a perfect obstacle use for Gondolas. Its very difficult to span our deep and wide river with bridges. This requires very long spans and incredible cost to provide top of bank to top of bank service.

    Conversely the SCC (or wherever) to Strathcona Bus Barns route would be a perfect use of a Gondola. This potentially being built with far less ripping out or intrusion that bridges require, does not interfere at all with traffic or other infrastructure and are better environmental solutions, better at moving people quickly, and effortlessly.

    Its the nature of our river valley that makes Gondolas such a good idea here. It always was something that should be done here rather than keep building new bridges or pedestrian bridges. I would hope there is some ability to use gondola cabs that can facilitate walk on bikes.
    On issue is raised platforms and access. The Elevator at the funicular/ staircase cost $1.5 million. So that might be an added cost of gondola stops with certain placements. A drop in the bucket additional cost compared to the overall astronomical LRT build costs.

  73. #173

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    I don't agree that the north terminal should be the Shaw CC.

    Rogers Place is a far better and straight line destination with the benefit of a direct access to the East Valley Line and the Metro/Capital line at Bay Station intermediate stop at Jasper Ave.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  74. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    An example of the issues adopting new technologies presents might be the changing of street lighting over to LEDs. This project is stripping a lot of long term electricity expenditure away from the Alberta based utilities all the while causing large expenditure on the new fixtures which in turn is shipping millions of dollars to places like China. However the installation boosts short term jobs in the city and huge savings on the City’s books but at the cost of fewer long term Alberta based jobs mining coal etc.
    Except the City's own utility corporation is responsible for the streetlights & the swaps are done by existing EPCOR Technologies crews. EPCOR Technologies also handled the LED conversion of traffic lights here & in Calgary.

    https://www.epcor.com/products-servi...mentation.aspx
    So not even job benefits. Just short term costs and long term job losses in existing industries. Once the savings start to accrue the spending may or may not regenerate numbers comparable to the lost jobs.

  75. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I don't agree that the north terminal should be the Shaw CC.

    Rogers Place is a far better and straight line destination with the benefit of a direct access to the East Valley Line and the Metro/Capital line at Bay Station intermediate stop at Jasper Ave.
    Very interesting idea.

    Or Shaw Conf Centre as an interim stop on a loop around downtown. ???

  76. #176

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    ^^ That is a broken window fallacy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para..._broken_window
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  77. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I don't agree that the north terminal should be the Shaw CC.

    Rogers Place is a far better and straight line destination with the benefit of a direct access to the East Valley Line and the Metro/Capital line at Bay Station intermediate stop at Jasper Ave.
    Rogers place is pretty far north though, threading further through downtown. I can see why they proposed right on the riverbank but I agree that closer to the core of downtown and closer to straight line would be better.

    Either Macdonald Drive at Alberta College/Telus plaza, or up 102 street to the underutilized block between next to Manulife and commerce place and at City Centre Mall's front door would be strong options.
    There can only be one.

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Suicides here in Edmonton have sadly made the news lately. Oxford have gone to great length to "suicide proof" some of their properties. Suicide is a controversial subject which is why the City of Edmonton had to modify the HLB. If anyone wanted to use the Gondola as a way to jump out, trust me the idea of wrecking the locking system wont enter their "minds" lord forbid that would happen.

    I'm a converted advocate of the Gondola system. PRT has shown me the light. However its always best to measure twice cut once.
    I agree, people will tamper with it if they really want to. I was just stating that it has a safety feature in place to prevent the doors from opening freely.

  79. #179

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    Easier to break a window in a tall building and jump or go to the roof. Or step in front of a truck on the highway or an LRT train

    With the hundreds of thousands who take a a Gondola each day, I have never heard that a suicide from one as a common occurance.

    Base jumping yes.

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  80. #180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ^^ The stairs wouldn’t work well for people in wheelchairs. Moreover, why did so many able bodied people choose the funicular over the stairs?

    .
    Because people are invariably selfish? You see the same behavior EVERY bus route. People sitting in the marked disabled and seniors seats without a 2nd thought. Being first on the bus at a crowded stop so that they could block people that need those seats.

    literally the first people around the corner of the Mac hotel (down that narrow sidewalk) made a beeline to the Funicular because they were the most fit, fastest, and without a thought that somebody else might require that conveyance.

    Its exactly what I expected to occur, and expected to see when I got there. People with no disability mobbing to the Funicular when it was known that thousands would be headed that same way.

    It was an interesting, and I'm sure unintended overuse of the system. I mentioned in the other thread as well that the crazy staircase with unexpected concrete abutment seats was causing some people to lose balance. Could have been some injuries there. When the stairway is PACKED with people you don't see the abutments upcoming. So that people were almost walking right into them, people walking behind jamming into the people stopped, etc and resultant logjams with people wondering what the delay is. Then at the elevator same thing. elevator jammed with mobile people, and a thousand or so people funneling in (bottleneck) to go around the elevator to get to the stairs because of lineups to the elevator. Whoever designed that stairway and system never expected that there would ever be a thousand or more people trodding down on it at any one time.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  81. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I don't agree that the north terminal should be the Shaw CC.

    Rogers Place is a far better and straight line destination with the benefit of a direct access to the East Valley Line and the Metro/Capital line at Bay Station intermediate stop at Jasper Ave.
    Theres no point to take it that far, or to take it to that destination, and it sure isn't something that the DT minded COE would be interested in doing. The first thought Silly Hall would have with a proposed route like that is taking arena Denizens away from their Ice entertainment district away to Strathcona. You didn't think this through. There is no way the COE would do that or have that as the line. They want people in the DT, not in Strathcona before/after a game.

    For simple accessibility, and shorter line, I'm fine with any area on or near the bank of the river on the DT side Or even reaching Jasper Avenue right in front of the Mac. This would also make for the most scenic route imo. With the Mac in full view. Would also line up naturally to utilize the Funicular at close location. I could see the City maybe doing a connection all the way to the back end of the Library but I don't see easement in that area that would allow easiest passage. Would run right over street in that case but where do the Towers go. Do you really want Gondola Towers in the DT. I don't, and I don't think the city would.
    Last edited by Replacement; 16-03-2018 at 12:58 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  82. #182

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    Replacement.

    So you seem to want a gondola to take tourist and conventioneers from Shaw to Whyte but not bring employees and shoppers to downtown? You didn't think this through...
    Bay and Rogers are far more central to Shaw every day of the week. A Shaw line is about 2.8 km to Whyte. The line from Whyte to Bay is 2.6 km and another station to Rogers is 3.1 km. The benefits of two stations DT on a 3.1 km line that is only 10% longer than a Shaw line.

    Since gondolas can go both ways, it can be used for tourists and Edmontonian alike if it offers practical destinations. It can bring people from the southside to DT and make the DT more vibrant unless you think that the DT cannot compete with Whyte Ave.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  83. #183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I don't agree that the north terminal should be the Shaw CC.

    Rogers Place is a far better and straight line destination with the benefit of a direct access to the East Valley Line and the Metro/Capital line at Bay Station intermediate stop at Jasper Ave.
    Theres no point to take it that far, or to take it to that destination, and it sure isn't something that the DT minded COE would be interested in doing. The first thought Silly Hall would have with a proposed route like that is taking arena Denizens away from their Ice entertainment district away to Strathcona. You didn't think this through. There is no way the COE would do that or have that as the line. They want people in the DT, not in Strathcona before/after a game.

    For simple accessibility, and shorter line, I'm fine with any area on or near the bank of the river on the DT side Or even reaching Jasper Avenue right in front of the Mac. This would also make for the most scenic route imo. With the Mac in full view. Would also line up naturally to utilize the Funicular at close location. I could see the City maybe doing a connection all the way to the back end of the Library but I don't see easement in that area that would allow easiest passage. Would run right over street in that case but where do the Towers go. Do you really want Gondola Towers in the DT. I don't, and I don't think the city would.
    The Idea of the line to Rogers would be to create an alternate route to get there rather than a car, bus or LRT. Oh I get it. If they were to build that then no one would want to live there. Right. Its called the city is growing. Lets create new ways for people to travel and have an element of surprise for some. Its a cheaper alternative than LRT. I see it that you would be drawing more people to Rogers than taking away. And ya after games not everyone hangs around. Not all things there appeases everyone.
    As for the problem of towers being an eyesore, They can find ways to integrate it in or on buildings.

  84. #184

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    ^I'm not at all opposed to any of the suggestions. I was simply saying the COE wouldn't do a gondola line that ran to the Arena or Ice district due to CRL levy, Katz, etc. I just don't see the city going for that.

    @PRT I did mention going to either the Mac (front, Jasper Ave) or to South plaza of the Library. Both of these are close, within walking distance of the Funicular, service the DT, to that end service visits to the DT or River Valley etc. I don't think these are ridiculous suggestions.

    Finally, Arenas in this day and age invariably have a 30-40 fear usage span before Cities typically build another one (and often somewhere else) We're in the speculative stages of a Gondola operation that might not occur, if ever, for a decade, (given typical pace of this city) So that the Arena by then will already be a dozen years in operation, and 2 decades until it probably ceases to be the main arena.

    Theres a danger in specifically routing to facilities that are short term vs places which are long term. Anything like City hall, Mac, Library, Locations like that make sense because what is contained in those areas is likely remaining indefinitely, and are convenient and CENTRAL DT locations.

    It makes less sense to overhshoot much of the DT to take this route right to the arena. I don't consider the Arena central to the DT. I've always kind of thought DT nexus to be in Churchill Square area.
    Last edited by Replacement; 16-03-2018 at 02:03 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  85. #185

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    ^^Good picture.

    I think many people have a ski hill or tourist attraction POV experience with gondolas. They don't understand how it integrates into an urban environment especially.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 16-03-2018 at 02:03 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  86. #186

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    Its sad the comments occurring in Journal, Sun, or by Knack just really opposed to any idea of a functional gondola. It seems people in this city are really opposed to anything novel. Again given that our heritage is a frontier breaking Municipality and Northern outpost where imagination was king and we found ways to serve outlying areas, territories its offputting there is so much opposition to this. I'm strongly behind a Gondola that connects the DT with Strathcona. This would be consumer driven, service a lot of needs and wants and make simple, what is now a difficult trip. Moreso this is the kind of route you do to further tourism. This is something that visitors would very much like and that citizens would use.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  87. #187

    Default

    Edmonton 1978, First City in North America under one million people to build LRT

    Edmonton 2078, Last City in North America over one million people to build GTS

    Sad
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  88. #188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    ^^Good picture.

    I think many people have a shi hill or tourist attraction POV experience with gondolas. They don't understand how it integrates into an urban environment especially.
    I love the picture as well. But wonder where that is located and if the facility is specifically a Gondola/Tour ships dock access point. That having specific use and driven use in that operation. So that the location as per the picture makes sense.

    in Edmonton its less important EXACTLY where the thing has terminus in DT. In Strathcona the Bus barns area is a no brainer. That is parking lots right now and so easily doable on that end.

    To me connecting Strathcona with the DT art district makes inate sense. I think that is our showcase. I love the idea of it offering views of city Hall, Winspear, AGA, Citadel, New Library, RAM, Mac hotel. I think that is more of location district then the propped up ice district. jmo but visually the route would be more interesting.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  89. #189

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    wouldn't be a sad thing if we didn't have a suitable route for an aerial tram (crossing the river). There are other cities with smaller rivers and narrower/shallower valleys where top-of-bank bridges are easy. Those places SHOULDN'T build Aerial Tramways.
    There can only be one.

  90. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Edmonton 1978, First City in North America under one million people to build LRT

    Edmonton 2078, Last City in North America over one million people to build GTS

    Sad
    Agreed, it sure is. But that's the kind of opposition I'm seeing. Its inordinately the silly level of opposition as well. Opponents not even making serious rebuttal. Just ridiculous comments about where is the ski hill, this isn't the Alps, etc. Complete lack of imagination.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  91. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Edmonton 1978, First City in North America under one million people to build LRT

    Edmonton 2078, Last City in North America over one million people to build GTS

    Sad
    did you just make that up? Just how many cities in north america are building gts today, to serve as function of mass transit? How many cities have any real plans to do so?

    it wasnt too long ago you were flooding these forums with your previous mickey mouse ideas of PRT. You were then also
    quite steadfast in your resolve that if Edmonton didnt immediately starting developing PRT that we would be left behind somehow... just how wrong were you about that is just about how wrong you are about gts

    sad indeed

  92. #192

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    No one has made a public case for the Downtown to Old Strathcona Aerial tram as being an actual transportation benefit, so the public's response treats it like just another Funicular-like novelty. The flawed idea of a whyte ave tram didn't help anything.
    There can only be one.

  93. #193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Edmonton 1978, First City in North America under one million people to build LRT

    Edmonton 2078, Last City in North America over one million people to build GTS

    Sad
    did you just make that up? Just how many cities in north america are building gts today, to serve as function of mass transit? How many cities have any real plans to do so?

    it wasnt too long ago you were flooding these forums with your previous mickey mouse ideas of PRT. You were then also
    quite steadfast in your resolve that if Edmonton didnt immediately starting developing PRT that we would be left behind somehow... just how wrong were you about that is just about how wrong you are about gts

    sad indeed
    You are being intellectually dishonest. I never said that Edmonton had to immediately start building PRT. I said we had a opportunity to have Ultra come to Edmonton and if the city would offer a lease on COE ROW that they would build a demonstration loop in the city and that could lead to Edmonton to become a leader in new transit technology. As far as I remember, you were the one who repeatedly flooded this forum by reposting long anti-prt rants from some off the wall cartoonist. As a point, I only became interested in PRT after reading about it after Fell posted PRT info on this forum back in 2006 or 2007

    It is also disingenuous of you to connect an emerging technology with the proven 100 year mature technology of aerial gondolas as some mickey mouse idea. In fact urban gondolas were being discussed on this forum before I even became a member. You are using you personal dislike of me to disparage a good idea that won a recent COE Award for this city. You also fail to understand that Mexicable in Mexico City with 21 million people is indeed a major North American city to use urban gondolas for public transit as does New York and Portland Oregon. Many other cities are also seeing the rapid expansion of aerial transit inSouth American cities as a solution to the first mile and last mile of LRT and other transit issues where other more conventional forms of transit are either too expensive, too disruptive or totally impractical or all three.

    Please don't make your personal bias and blind hate an issue in this debate. When you asked gondola supporters to leave the WLRT thread that envaneo derailed, I was the first to move it back to this thread.

    Remember this forum's motto. Go ahead, share your passion. Please allow us to do so. If you don't want to debate it, please don't become a EDP or MrO. type poster.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  94. #194
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    I think that a gondola going from the McEwan Station at Roger's Place to Whyte Avenue over the End of Steel park is a good route that would provide useful transportation options an not just be some tourist thing. Constant service would be a major benefit.

    If the City built this they would certainly determine if more widespread use would be beneficial.

  95. #195

    Default

    If they can spend $25M on a staircase and funicular, finding a $25-50M to build a 3 kilometer useful transportation route should be a no brainer.

    What the COE over spec the requirements and design a monstrosity that no gondola manufacturer builds so the costs equal that of an LRT line at $300M for an overdesigned 100 passenger gondola with LED lights on the cables. All to prove that people shall not get what they want and need.

    They should do the bidding like they did the Commonwealth Stadium in 1975. We had $25m to spend, (yup, that's was the budget) and the bidders had to offer the largest capacity stadium within this costs. The winning bid reused an existing stadium design from Ohio and actually the construction came in $2M UNDER BUDGET at $23M. Not pretty like other stadiums but very effective and had served Edmonton well. Compare that to the over $1 billion BIG O in Montreal that was built at the same time.

    The COE should find out what the average gondola costs at a dozen ski hills and then if it say, $36m, then asks the major manufacturers to offer them the highest capacity and fastest system within that budget. Highest spec wins on a fixed price. Top 3 bidders get option to bid on next two future lines if the first line proves popular and effective with 99.5% minimum uptime in first year of operation. Bonus 10% royalty during first year of operation on every fare paying passenger.

    Anyone have suggestions on other innovative bidding ideas?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 16-03-2018 at 09:45 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  96. #196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    I think that a gondola going from the McEwan Station at Roger's Place to Whyte Avenue over the End of Steel park is a good route that would provide useful transportation options an not just be some tourist thing. Constant service would be a major benefit.

    If the City built this they would certainly determine if more widespread use would be beneficial.
    In an earlier post I linked to a long article in which the London gondola project has been a lesson in what not to do. It’s a non-integrated private line that saw underwhelming ridership numbers.



    More here on the apparently outrageous London costs:


    Exploring the Thames Cable Car Costs « The Gondola Project

    Post by Steven Dale

    Over the weekend it was announced that the estimated project cost for London’s Thames Cable Car (Gondola) has ballooned to an estimated £60m. For those interested, that means the system will cost roughly $100m USD per kilometer.

    With the possible exception of the Caracas Metrocable (whose finances are discussed here), the London Thames Cable Car will easily be the most expensive gondola/cable car ever built. It’s even more expensive than the overpriced Burnaby Mountain Gondola, whose cost has also yet to be explained or justified.

    As we discuss here, the London Thames Cable Car appears to be nothing more than the latest example of largely English-speaking transit agencies’ unwillingness and/or inability to reign in costs related to transit projects.

    Whether this is an example of scope creep, pork barrelling, corruption or just pure out-and-out incompetence is virtually irrelevant at this point because all or some clearly have a role to play in this debacle.

    As someone who happens to know a little bit about cable transit systems, let be me completely blunt: There is absolutely, positively, completely no reason whatsoever this project should cost London taxpayers ~$100m USD. Not a single good reason:



    ONE. ...”


    http://gondolaproject.com/2011/09/26...ble-car-costs/
    Last edited by KC; 16-03-2018 at 10:07 PM.

  97. #197

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    You guys are delusional who think that this could be built for the $50Mil range over that kind of span. Think hundreds of millions of $'s for this boondoggle........

  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    No one has made a public case for the Downtown to Old Strathcona Aerial tram as being an actual transportation benefit, so the public's response treats it like just another Funicular-like novelty. The flawed idea of a whyte ave tram didn't help anything.
    Earlier in the week Ward 9 Councilor Tim Cartmell came close to a suggestion like that:

    http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1185196611805
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  99. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by happydays View Post
    You guys are delusional who think that this could be built for the $50Mil range over that kind of span. Think hundreds of millions of $'s for this boondoggle........
    Using Valley line standards, the cost of a LRT today is $138M/Kilometre. A Gondola/cable car system would be $12M/Kilometer. Do the math.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...mell-1.4575188
    Last edited by envaneo; 16-03-2018 at 10:11 PM.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  100. #200

    Default

    Will this fantasy gondola go all the way to millwoods with multiple stations and park-and-ride? Carrying anywhere near the volume of riders? Or anything even comparable?
    Last edited by Spudly; 16-03-2018 at 10:55 PM.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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