Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789
Results 801 to 856 of 856

Thread: North East LRT Extension | Clareview to Gorman | Planning/Discussion

  1. #801

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RTA View Post
    We need to work on more infill and higher density in the established city, but we also need to consider how we build new neighborhoods at the same time. We can't end sprawl, but we can manage it and mitigate its effects by building smarter, not by not building at all.
    There is absolutely no reason why Edmonton city has to continue building sprawl. If other cities want to build it, let them, their taxpayers can pay the costs of that mistake. Its time for Edmonton to stop, we live in one of the lowest density cities on earth, it is not environmentally sustainable for a winter city.

    As to Gorman, I think its pretty clear from the decision to redirect the shovel ready to NAIT, that Council understands it is more important to get the TOD's up and running closer in first, and building an urban LRT first. This planning should be put on ice, it is just a waste of effort right now.
    Totally agree with you. The LRT with massive parking lots only contributes to sprawl. However, the bigger threat is the Anthony Henday Drive - a recent report shows that the Henday has resulted is a massive amount of new low density car oriented big box retail at major intersections and more planned.

    It didn't have to happen this way. The Henday could have been built and strict zoning could have prevented the low-density big box retail. My concern is Edmonton will turn into a doughnut with all new development centered on the Henday and the city centre somewhat forgotten.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

  2. #802
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    Well Anthony Henday Drive will be open this coming Tuesday and I don't doubt that the opening will spark developers to look at the Gorman area a whole lot closer. I really think that the city should work really hard to establish concrete guidelines in order to properly create a future TOD. I still would love to see a complex where the central part of it would be an LRT station and then surrounding it would retail, professional and residential properties that would create a proper zone for TOD. I say keep the park n ride as it is at Clareview and they could create some sort of parking facility at Gorman station but I would much rather see building that would be an LRT station first and then a retail and professional mall second.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  3. #803

    Default

    ^I can all but guarantee they'll screw it up so hard. Last I heard, the North Edmonton Common type thing will be almost exactly the same as SEC. That is, LRT will not be fully integrated and will be a parking lot disaster accessible only by car, and you will need to drive from store to store even when inside the common.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  4. #804
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    ^I hear ya, but I can hope that the area directly around Gorman station can be done wisely.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  5. #805
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Beverly Heights in a small house with a large lot!!
    Posts
    2,056

    Default

    Project History

    February 2010 - City Council decided West and Southeast LRT lines are next priority

    City Council decided the West and Southeast LRT lines is the next priority after, or concurrent with, the North LRT to NAIT.


    Don't expect anything to happen with this for a great long while.
    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...lrt-study.aspx
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  6. #806
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    Oh I'm well aware of the priority for the LRT here in the city. With that said though if additional funding or were to come in, or if the capital region board said they want an LRT to the airport now, then things can always potentially change.

    I am personally happy with where they plan on going next.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  7. #807
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    I do hope that with the developments at the new Manning Power Center that any and all ROW's are protected so that one day when this extension gets built that there wont be any issues. Also too I think and hope that the city is going to hold to its visions of good TOD's and tries to regulate land uses around the future Gorman station.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  8. #808
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Beverly Heights in a small house with a large lot!!
    Posts
    2,056

    Default

    Strange that no talk of this particular line has been noted in some time even with the Henday extension going in along with Vic Trail.
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  9. #809
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Windermere
    Posts
    1,992

    Default

    The LRT will follow Victoria Trail and go under the Anthony Henday at what is now 18 street.

  10. #810
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    370

    Default

    the current plan is for the LRT and Victoria Trail to go OVER Henday, unless the P3 contractor comes up with something more cost effective.

  11. #811
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    ^Really?? I would have thought that LRT and roadway would be a whole lot easier if it went under AHD.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  12. #812
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    Gorman LRT station can wait till population in northeast grows in good numbers.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  13. #813

    Default

    The problem with that is you end up with a development that isn't suited to LRT. People already have it in their minds to drive rather than take the train. Have the LRT in place as the development goes up and people will see it as part of their neighbourhood rather than something that arrived later and they have to change for.

  14. #814
    never answered e-mail
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The problem with that is you end up with a development that isn't suited to LRT. People already have it in their minds to drive rather than take the train. Have the LRT in place as the development goes up and people will see it as part of their neighbourhood rather than something that arrived later and they have to change for.
    It's also possible you'll attract more of the type of residents who would have taken the train in the first place.

  15. #815

    Default

    If the train is already there or will be within a year or two. If the LRT extension is at some nebulous time in the future you'll attract the same people that are buying in the suburbs. Car first, transit distant second.

  16. #816
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    In order to make Gorman station a successful TOD I really think that the station could and should be a part of a larger complex similar to the Calgary West LRT station of Westbrook. The building which will have offices and retail at street level in the render is right above an underground station. Also according to the city of Calgary this is one of their TOD projects where there would be plenty of mixed use buildings are intended for this area. I included a PDF of the proposed TOD.

    I think if the future Gorman station could be designed like this the use as a TOD would work very well. There would not be much at all for parking in this area but there could be lots of residential within walking distance and plenty of retail and professional offices nearby or right on top of a station.



    http://realestate.cocnmp.com/documen...tation_tod.pdf
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  17. #817
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    So I went out to Kuhlmann Garden's the other day and passed by the new Manning Town Centre by Cameron Development. Unfortunately here is another power centre that has only cars and truck in mind. Looking at the maps though, Gorman station and supposed TOD development is essentially next door to the Manning complex. I think it's time to look at the Gorman station as it is no longer in the middle of nowhere. What I would like to see is a smart station that would help be a true catalyst for a new TOD in that corner of the city.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  18. #818

    Default

    ^ I disagree...

    Even if it only costs 200 million to build that 200 million should go to extending the Low floor line.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  19. #819
    Administrator *
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Queen Mary Park, Edmonton
    Posts
    2,755

    Default

    ^ And the NW Line to St. Albert... Extending the current line northeast or south should be on the back burner.

  20. #820

    Default

    ^ Exactly.. build the system in the inner city first. This is the highest concentration of ridership and we need to promote infill development, not suburban sprawl.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  21. #821

    Default

    I would agree except to extend the current line one stop over the Henday. Get it past the psychological barrier and encourage people in that area to take the train. Once they're in their car and they get to the current EOL they might as well just drive downtown based on the parking situation at Century Park. Get the train into a developing area and encourage transit right from the get go. The further south extensions can wait until it's built up a bit more.

  22. #822
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Summerside
    Posts
    1,577

    Default

    I don't think pushing it past the AHD at this point at that location would be the best investment. If they were going to push it past the AHD for some reason I would say that should be done on the SW side of the line. However, I'm like others and think the investment at this point should be downtown then the extented where it demands.

  23. #823

    Default

    It's just like Calgary's pending C Train Decision.

    Do we go after the South line with a HUGE price tag or the North Central line which will cost far less and have higher ridership?

    See my tagline
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  24. #824

    Default

    your tagline should have an asterisks besides it. Perhaps if people had better transit service they would start using it....?? You quite often lamant that you wont take a bus anywhere (millbourne mall, downtown, wem) but if there was a train that suddenly made it to 120th street, you'd suddenly be a transit rider.

    But, you choose to live with blinders on. You spout off that being central is the only way to be, and that central people should be the only ones that get decent transit service, with no reason for your strange assertions... outside the fact that you live central, and would benefit you... (who cares about anyone else right? suckers)

    As for the north central vs Southeast line in Calgary and the price tag, not sure how you are comparing the price tag, but isn't one line like 30 km long, versus the north central of about 10 km? And the SouthEast line serves a much larger population segement? You're probably only focused on "the inner city" again, ignoring that the rest of the city needs decent transit options too.
    Last edited by Medwards; 04-06-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  25. #825

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ Exactly.. build the system in the inner city first. This is the highest concentration of ridership and we need to promote infill development, not suburban sprawl.
    More craziness from you. Citation please. Please show that inner city has the highest concentration of ridership, and that some how building LRT to existing parts of the city would promote suburban sprawl and not infill. Infill can happen and should happen anywhere in the city. It's very myopic of you to only focus on transit for inner city residents. We are all tax payers, and we all can benefit from great transit service.
    I'm not sure why you always have to paint everyone/anyone who doesn't live downtown/central as "the big rob ford transit hating sprawl loving monster" Frankly, its tiring, untrue, and really does nothing but further isolate, rather than promote the city as a big community. It shouldn't be US VS THEM. It should be "we are all in this together"

  26. #826
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Transit should serve everyone. Given the cost and benefit, The Gorman extension is a no-brainer.
    Parkdale

  27. #827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Transit should serve everyone. Given the cost and benefit, The Gorman extension is a no-brainer.
    Can you please tell us what is the cost / benefit ratio that you speak of? Where is the source of your information.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  28. #828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Transit should serve everyone. Given the cost and benefit, The Gorman extension is a no-brainer.
    The capacity extended should match the demand..
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  29. #829

    Default

    I'd bet Gorman would be at capacity from the day it opened, even if it were to open tomorrow. Clareview is overfull plus add in the henday connecting everyone in the northeast plus a neighborhood the city wants to be transit friendly to encourage denser smarter developments ...

  30. #830
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Beverly Heights in a small house with a large lot!!
    Posts
    2,056

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'd bet Gorman would be at capacity from the day it opened, even if it were to open tomorrow. Clareview is overfull plus add in the henday connecting everyone in the northeast plus a neighborhood the city wants to be transit friendly to encourage denser smarter developments ...
    Concur.A friend of mine is a Bus driver who always comments on the masses at Clareview. It makes logical sense to extend the line to the Henday thus making a convenient connection to those coming in from Ft Sask and the north end. IE McConachie.
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  31. #831
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    This may not be a cool as the new SELRT line or extension to St.Albert, which I agree need to be done asap, but I think it is just as important to extend this line. There is nothing wrong with extending the LRT.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  32. #832
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'd bet Gorman would be at capacity from the day it opened, even if it were to open tomorrow. Clareview is overfull plus add in the henday connecting everyone in the northeast plus a neighborhood the city wants to be transit friendly to encourage denser smarter developments ...
    Yup, makes sense to me. $200 mil is chump change for this extension and the benefits will be massive. This should move forward as soon as possible.
    Parkdale

  33. #833

    Default

    IMHO, $210M for a ground level 2.9km extension partly on an existing RR ROW is ridiculously expensive. The Clareview 2.2km extension and station in 1981 cost only $10M ($26M in 2013 dollars) That makes this extension 6 times the cost per kilometer in real dollars.

    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...tatistics.aspx
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  34. #834
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    It was only $100 mil a few years ago. So once again dithering and delaying costs us a bundle...
    Parkdale

  35. #835

    Default

    I thought a major cost of the extension was power upgrade... Which was needed anyways...and went through on another budget (nait lrt)

  36. #836

    Default

    Eprt, consumer inflation costs is not the same number or formula I would use to look at difference in cost in construction over a 30 year span. Also missing in your figure is that clareview was build with only a temp station.

    Pretty sure kcantor helped you identify what is wrong with that method a few times now. Your amenesia kicking in again ?

  37. #837

    Default

    Your rude comments are not appreciated.

    Can you explain why the costs have risen from $4.5M/km in 1981 to $72M/km, a 1600% increase in 32 years? Show me any example of the labor cost, steel costs, concrete costs, diesel costs or any other related construction commodity has risen by 1600%? Or are we just being hosed, ya think?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  38. #838

    Default

    Good god, if I explain this again to you, could you estimate how many days later I will have to explain this to you again later?

    1) The first problem with your "equation" is that you only think its ties and track that are a part of the cost
    2) Station cost (temp station versus permanent
    3) Style of construction (concrete ties versus wooden ties)
    4) cost of materials has risen significantly
    5) cost of labour is much higher than it used to be. You've even identified this before in some other thread, complaining that even an inexperience tool push off the street gets 40$/hr.

    I also found that there was a significant power station being built, that is required anyways for the whole line that was tied in to the 210$ M ... that might be already built in a nother budget.

    If you can look into both budgets and see whats included, what wasnt... there's logical explainations...


    but ya, "we're being hosed" is always a good choice for you to go to. Next, you'll tell us how cheaply PRT can be built...
    Last edited by Medwards; 05-06-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  39. #839

    Default

    Don't be so obtuse

    The LRT was never built on wooden ties to my knowledge
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  40. #840
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Umm..... yes it was

    There are wodden ties on it right now. They're being replaced with a polymer/ recycled plastic tie
    Parkdale

  41. #841

    Default

    Thanks 240GLT for the correction.

    What I do remember was that they laid down cheap rails that sagged under the weight over time and had to be replaced.

    Still 1600% is a huge increase. In 1981 oil & diesel was just as expensive as today in constant dollars that construction equipment uses. Energy prices also affect steel and especially concrete costs. That $40/hr wages that workers want today was not $2.50/hr in 1981 ($40/16=2.5). Even minimum wage then was $3.85/hr

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 05-06-2013 at 01:24 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  42. #842

    Default

    Use the 100-200 mill on what we have outlined as our CURRENT and MOST IMPORTANT priorities.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  43. #843
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Thanks 240GLT for the correction.

    What I do remember was that they laid down cheap rails that sagged under the weight over time and had to be replaced.

    Still 1600% is a huge increase. In 1981 oil & diesel was just as expensive as today in constant dollars that construction equipment uses. Energy prices also affect steel and especially concrete costs. That $40/hr wages that workers want today was not $2.50/hr in 1981 ($40/16=2.5). Even minimum wage then was $3.85/hr

    It seems that they're replacing the rails too, north from Stadium

    What I'd really like to see, is all park and ride moved north to Gorman, to give the city a 2nd chance to fix Clareview into what it should hve been in the first place. The NE line is already very busy, and it's only going to get busier. There's also ample opportunity to merge some regional transit to Ft. Sask. Tonnes of people head out that way every day.
    Parkdale

  44. #844

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    What I'd really like to see, is all park and ride moved north to Gorman, to give the city a 2nd chance to fix Clareview into what it should hve been in the first place.
    Difficult to do. There are limits at Clareview in replacing the parking with more residential. The CN ROW prevents infill as they have Federal jurisdiction and can block any development based on safety distances. A train derailment could be disastrous.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  45. #845
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    Yes, the CNR ROW has been a difficult hurdle in even getting work done on the ROW south of the Yellowhead, where no trains will likely ever pass again.

    We've wondered what it will take for that ROW to be formally decomissioned (there's still a bunch of signalling infratructure along the ROW) Seeing as Railtown was able to be created on what was once the CN yards, I'd think it would be difficult, but not impossible to make that happen
    Parkdale

  46. #846

    Default

    Canadian construction material costs
    http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id37181

    Ready-mix concrete price index


    Concrete reinforcing bars price index


    Diesel fuel price index


    Sort of blows that whole hyper inflation theory to death.

    I wonder how many companies really bid on Edmonton's LRT projects? 2 or 3???
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  47. #847

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Yes, the CNR ROW has been a difficult hurdle in even getting work done on the ROW south of the Yellowhead, where no trains will likely ever pass again.

    We've wondered what it will take for that ROW to be formally decomissioned (there's still a bunch of signalling infratructure along the ROW) Seeing as Railtown was able to be created on what was once the CN yards, I'd think it would be difficult, but not impossible to make that happen
    Agree. Should have happened 20 years ago.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  48. #848
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,252

    Default

    As for the inflation.. It's hard to use Canadian figures and apply them locally. Look at the massive 23rd ave interchange cost over-runs as a classic example. I was involved in commercial and institutional construction for 13 years, in Vancouver, Calgary and then Edmonton. Edmonton was by for the most expensive jurisdiction to build in, because there is such stiff competition from industry for workers, materials and equipment. I ran into it over and over again... if I needed, say, a specialized instrumentation technician, or a mobile crane, or needed to rent a generator, or even an Atco trailer for a job site, things cost much, much more here. Not saying that this is specifically the cause of the inflation in Edmonton, but just noting that nothing suprises me about costs to do work here. It's an expensive city to get work done in, when times are good.
    Parkdale

  49. #849

    Default

    I agree but 23rd ave was a FUBAR from the start and very poorly managed by the COE, poorly planned, poorly costed and with a project manager who was not qualified. Is this what we have to put up with on every civic project?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  50. #850

    Default

    I guess the 400 M proposed 149st / Yellowhead interchange will make 23rd avenue seem cheap...

  51. #851

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Canadian construction material costs
    http://www.dcnonl.com/article/id37181

    Ready-mix concrete price index


    Concrete reinforcing bars price index


    Diesel fuel price index


    Sort of blows that whole hyper inflation theory to death.

    I wonder how many companies really bid on Edmonton's LRT projects? 2 or 3???
    You can't look at CANADIAN AVERAGES... You need to look at EDMONTON. We don't buy concrete from Ontario.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  52. #852

    Default

    I am showing trends

    Can you show me how much more we pay for concrete, reinforcing steel and diesel that the national average? 10% maybe but certainly not double.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  53. #853

    Default

    I am just saying..If you are going to dump info on us make it relevant.

    We have to pay Edmonton Area Labor Rates, Edmonton Area material costs...

    I wonder what the cost of Gorman would be now that the power upgrade has been stripped out of it... which relaly leads to the whole point of us discussing cost being redundant as we simply don't know.

    What we know..
    The cost of th eproject with power upgrades was x apx 5 years ago
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 05-06-2013 at 04:06 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  54. #854
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    Simple fact though is that if we had gotten things built back in the 70's and 80's it would have cost us a whole lot less and we would have already been talking about extentions to Fort Sask, deeper into St.Albert, Sherwood Park and improving on the LRT that would have already been at the Airport. Unfortunately we are very far behind and we have to push to get as much done as possible now not years from now.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  55. #855
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    Edmonton grew very little during the 1990s, and LRT extension was a low priority at the time. Still, I think the city could have planned for LRT expansion.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  56. #856
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,954

    Default

    Council at the time had other priorities.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •