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Thread: Transit Service to EIA | Planning/Discussion

  1. #101

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    You have not answered why this is more important than servicing Edmonton neighborhoods who are paying for LRT right now (unlike Leduc), but receiving no service.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    70km/hr (current LRT system top speed) is very fast isn't it.

    PS. Why should Edmotnon be prioritising helping those who don't live in Edmonton, when most Edmonton neighborhoods (including Milwoods, and West End) have been paying for LRT through taxes, yet still don't have service?
    I thought it was a little faster, 80, with the ability to reach 100 if properly equipped.

    The reality is that a constant 80 with a couple 10 seond stops over that distance is still faster than a tract of 110 km/h which swings quite a way East before turning North, then being stopped by 34, 51, 60, 63, 71, 75, 82, Sask Drive, the hell switchback, and 105. If poorly timed, you can be at lights for 10+ minutes. Add renting the car, driving it back, filling it up, etc etc etc, and it could be advantageous.

    This vs HSR, give me this. At least the money is going into the immediate region and for our service. Plus, as Mandel states, this is a NO GO without regional funding and support.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    You have not answered why this is more important than servicing Edmonton neighborhoods who are paying for LRT right now (unlike Leduc), but receiving no service.
    I totally agree. I don't know why we'd want to make it easier to live in Leduc or Nisku than in Callingwood or Millwoods.

  4. #104
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    One of the major issues is to convince our Provincial gov't. to repair pave and maintain their portion of this roadway. This is a huge embarrasment and disservice to the entire region. It is in my opinion one of the worst sections of roadway in Alberta.
    We can illuminate after
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    Just from impractical experience, the slow lane is apparently the centre and left lanes

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS

    I thought it was a little faster, 80, with the ability to reach 100 if properly equipped.
    My understanding is that the current system (which is different from train speed), is limited to 70. Maybe it can be upgraded? I don't know.

    Yes, maybe if province fully funded it then. But, we have to understand, we are providing a competetive advantage to a competing city. Not sure that's very smart.

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    I work in the core. If the LRT went to airport I could take it from my office instead of a cab, or parking at the airport and spending tonnes of money on parking.

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    Sorry, I forgot to add
    Bring on the Buses!

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by 53latitude
    I work in the core. If the LRT went to airport I could take it from my office instead of a cab, or parking at the airport and spending tonnes of money on parking.
    Why wouldn't you take an express bus then?

    I work in the core and I would not take it to the Airport, having to cart my luggage to my downtown parking. I bet there are more like me than you, but that's for someone to prove one way or the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled
    I totally agree. I don't know why we'd want to make it easier to live in Leduc or Nisku than in Callingwood or Millwoods.
    From the article that started this thread...

    Mandel in an interview mentioned the cost range, while withholding details. He said the city has worked out the probable amounts, including who should pay what. The mayor said one reason the service will cost so much is that Edmonton Transit must buy special highway buses.

    "As soon as we sit down with the (Edmonton) airport authority and Leduc County and Leduc City, and see what they say, then we can move down the line." He said those talks could happen within the next 10 days.

    "We'd like to move ahead as quick as possible. But there's always a cost and people have to be willing to share the cost."


    ..do I need to grab similar Mandel quotes from the gaggle of recent "we must share" speeches?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    The LRT is slow, and there is no proof anyone would use it anyway, given most people drive to Airport at the moment. Why would I park at an LRT station rather than Airport? Agree that a bus makes sense though. If it is very popular, then maybe LRT could work.
    What proof was there that anyone would use AHD? Or, since you'll call that unfair, what proof was there that anyone would use the original LRT alignment?

    The whole point of transit to the airport is not that you'd be parking at an LRT station, which would most likely be illegal, it's that you could get to the airport via transit. Shocking, I know.

  11. #111

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    It will just be an incentive to sell my house and move to Leduc, or another surounding city, to flight away from the bad dangerous city. Maybe that's what some want?

    Odd that we want to share with LRT but not with HST (which actually would move fast to airport).

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    It will be an incentive to sell my house and move to Leduc.

    Real smart. Odd that we want to share with LRT but not with HST (which actually would move fast to airport).
    So, then move. OK. Fine. In 10 years, it is Edmonton anyway...

    HST, yeah right. You wouldn't get ANY FASTER as you are in the urban area, it takes time to get to speed unless we are now talking MAGLEV, and once in the city limits HST will be 80 km/h anyway. Those limits are what, 3 miles from YEG?

    So, if anything here deserves a few it is HST to YEG from downtown alone.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  13. #113
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    Another thought:

    LRT + bus service to the airport primarily benefits people who are travelling to the airport.

    LRT service directly to the airport benefits people who are trying to get to the airport, and it also provides immense benefits to communters in the bedroom communities.

    Do we want to give people the option of taking transit to YEG? LRT to Century Park and a 20 minute bus ride provides that.

    Do we want exurbs springing up all along highway 2? Then put in LRT.

  14. #114

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    I think both ideas (HST and LRT) to airport are pretty silly, when we have urgent transit / commuter needs within the city.

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    OR

    We can through planning have these exurbs NOT spring up?

    Face it folks, the urban boundaries of Edmonton WILL expand, and more than likely south. 41st ave SW is not that far from YEG, and there are more than enough firm plans to build that way.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    I think both ideas (HST and LRT) to airport are pretty silly, when we have urgent transit / commuter needs within the city.
    but who said that LRT to YEG was mutually EXCLUSIVE of the nLRT, or the nwLRT, or wLRT?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueline
    One of the major issues is to convince our Provincial gov't. to repair pave and maintain their portion of this roadway. This is a huge embarrasment and disservice to the entire region. It is in my opinion one of the worst sections of roadway in Alberta.
    I had to laugh when I read this. Wanna be in the back of the bus when it goes over that rolling section of the road near Blackmud Creek?
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  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    OR
    We can through planning have these exurbs NOT spring up?
    25 years worth already approved in Edmonton. But this is even worse, at it pushes people to competitng towns, taking away tax base.

  19. #119
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    Sure, as I launch into the roof....

    EDIT - this was re murman's comment..
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    OR
    We can through planning have these exurbs NOT spring up?
    (...) at it pushes people to competitng towns, taking away tax base.
    I guarantee that in 10 years, you won't care as this will be a non issue.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  21. #121

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    If Leduc Nisku really want, let them join Edmonton and start paying taxes here. Until then, lets have ETS service Edmonton neighborhoods that are not being serviced, rather than encouraging growth outside Edmonton.

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    How about this: annex a few kilometres on either side of the line. Don't put any stations in immediately. When you do, built them as dependent on the LRT as today's suburbs are on the car.

    There's going to be growth for a while. Growth around transit in a linear corridor is much better than haphasard growth. This isn't something to fight in the name of sprawl, it's something to embrace.

    From an anti-sprawl perspective: If we are going to allow ANY additional growth, this is what it should be. If we can't build this, we shouldn't be building anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    but who said that LRT to YEG was mutually EXCLUSIVE of the nLRT, or the nwLRT, or wLRT?
    If the capital for this comes from a magical regional pot that doesn't take away from EdmontonLRT builds then maybe. But the very mention of WBRT means that this is a zero-sum game.

    Compared to LRT running bus service to YEG would take essentially no capital and could be done the day after tomorrow. It would be crazy to not at least get the bus service going as a pilot program.

  24. #124
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    ^We need bus service yesterday.

    LRT won't be a priority for a while, but it's something we should plan for (and I mean literally just for the LRT, not to merely accomodate it like now). Buses should be running now.

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagould
    From an anti-sprawl perspective: If we are going to allow ANY additional growth, this is what it should be. If we can't build this, we shouldn't be building anything.
    I guess we view this differently. My view is that you reduce traffic within Edmonton by providing LRT transit to existing Edmonton neighborhoods. Get people out of their cars. These neighborhoods will become more attractive, those who pay taxes, will be serviced. People have been waiting long enough.

    Your view (and obviously, the view of those who want to promote more development in the South of the City, and in neighboring cities) is that you reduce traffic in Edmonton by building LRT to where we expect the new neighborhoods to be. My fear is that this simply provides more impetuts for more sprawl, especially in the South. IMO this impetus is not needed, as these neighborhoods are coming anyway, we don't need to give this more of a kickstart. If they want LRT, let the developers / new home owners pay for their own system, not those patiently waiting for LRT.

    Edmonton transit has no business promoting growth beyond Edmonton until existing Edmonton neighborhoods are serviced with the same growth opportunity.

  26. #126
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    anyone ever think more people might live more centrally if they can use transit to get out to where they need to as well...

    currently i have to drive to the airport, drive to wem, drive to many things i dont need to...sure there is the bus, but the LRT is very different.
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  27. #127

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    LRT has very little use right now if it does not connect your neighborhood to downtown. So our neighborhoods should be first - Milwoods, WEM are pretty key.

    Aside from business travelors, I don't see the average SUV driving Edmontonian, using the LRT to go to the airport. It's just another step to haul your families luggage through. But we can test this pretty easily with a good (every 10 minutes or so) express bus service to find out if there is some demand. Montreal has a popular service like this, that works very well.

  28. #128

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    First of all MH, stop asserting that this conclusion that LRT to the airport encourages growth in surrounding muni's is true and then asserting that others that may support LRT to the airport therefore support your conclusion. It's fallacious. There are many reasons one may support it that do not equal your conclusion.

    So in addition to proactive planning for growth nodes, have we forgotten about visitors to Edmonton. While Edmontonians may be reluctant to leave their cars at home (evidence?), what about those arriving at the airport? Would you rather pay 50$ for a cab or $5/10 for the train.

  29. #129

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    Why won't an express bus to downtown work for visitors? It works in Montreal.

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick
    So in addition to proactive planning for growth nodes, have we forgotten about visitors to Edmonton. While Edmontonians may be reluctant to leave their cars at home (evidence?), what about those arriving at the airport? Would you rather pay 50$ for a cab or $5/10 for the train.
    In Boston, I took the subway, transferred to the Silver Line BRT right to the airport doors for about $2 all-in. One year ago, that same ticket cost only $1.25, but daddy had to pay for that fancy new ticketing system somehow...

    It was a total no-brainer, especially foregoing a $20 cab ride in one of Boston's notorious cabs.
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    ^my father took the transit system in washington DC over a cab just for fun and it was $3.75 versus $70USD (9.35 cdn):>
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  32. #132

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    I took an express shuttel bus from Montreal Airport to downtown. One goes every 20 minutes. It costs $13 dollars. A lot less than an a billion (just guessing) dollar LRT extension

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    In Boston, I took the subway, transferred to the Silver Line BRT right to the airport doors for about $2 all-in. One year ago, that same ticket cost only $1.25, but daddy had to pay for that fancy new ticketing system somehow...

    It was a total no-brainer, especially foregoing a $20 cab ride in one of Boston's notorious cabs.
    If Boston - the king of crazy infrastructure projects - is okay with a bus out to the airport, I would think Edmonton should be too.

  34. #134
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    you're guessing high....reallly high.

    No tunnels

    a small creek (aka a culvert and a gravel bed to cross)

    Flat land

    Rail, wire and 1 station, yeg.

    MAYBE an over/underpass on hwy 19 - depending on the future road alignment.

    ...and we are taking a what, 6 mile extension at ~ 5 million a mile for track from the already planned line and one station?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  35. #135

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    How much track wear, train wear, cost to electrify that distance, upgrading power source for higher speed, snow maintenance, extra trains to fill that extra distance, etc.? Compare that to an express bus service.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    you're guessing high....reallly high.

    No tunnels

    a small creek (aka a culvert and a gravel bed to cross)

    Flat land

    Rail, wire and 1 station, yeg.

    MAYBE an over/underpass on hwy 19 - depending on the future road alignment.

    ...and we are taking a what, 6 mile extension at ~ 5 million a mile for track from the already planned line and one station?
    considering the ROW cost from southgate to century park came in at 86 million bucks, I'd say 5million a mile is really really low.
    Add in the numerous power substations you would need...this might be a 200 million dollar extension.

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled
    Quote Originally Posted by murman
    In Boston, I took the subway, transferred to the Silver Line BRT right to the airport doors for about $2 all-in. One year ago, that same ticket cost only $1.25, but daddy had to pay for that fancy new ticketing system somehow...

    It was a total no-brainer, especially foregoing a $20 cab ride in one of Boston's notorious cabs.
    If Boston - the king of crazy infrastructure projects - is okay with a bus out to the airport, I would think Edmonton should be too.
    More than a bus, though...

    Actually, it's a BRT system, hybrid, that is part "on the road" and part underground, linking up with the Red Line. Boston's Blue Line subway also skirts the edge of the airport, and has a transfer shuttle.

    http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/
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  38. #138

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    If moahunter moves to Leduc, he'll finally be in the far flung suburb he thinks Glenora and Grovessor is... LOL

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    How much track wear, train wear, cost to electrify that distance, upgrading power source for higher speed, snow maintenance, extra trains to fill that extra distance, etc.? Compare that to an express bus service.
    Shall we bring in the trolley people now?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    considering the ROW cost from southgate to century park came in at 86 million bucks, I'd say 5million a mile is really really low.
    Add in the numerous power substations you would need...this might be a 200 million dollar extension.
    I said just track I don't have good figures for the wiring, etc. What I found on the lower end of the LRT scale is 4-5 mill per mile for unobstructed track, signals, gravel, cement ties, etc....

    Remember that after the already planned extensions, you have no houses, paved roads, offices, interchanges, etc in your way. Only raw farmland and probably 1-2 pieces of raw land for "future stations" where the track can be moved when needed in 2020.

    The main point, if we even dare to think throwing money at HSR and its disparate technology is even remotely a good idea, why not LRT to each airport instead giving BOTH Alberta cities rapid transit access from their airports to their downtowns...Nah, that would be fair...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  41. #141

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    Over the next 10 years, I'd really like to see the city complete a line to NAIT and WEM, while building 1-2 more stations on the NE line N of Clairview.
    The next step should be to build an extension from the heritage along 23 ave/28 ave to millwoods, and an extension south to the airport from heritage.
    After that, lets build the line thats at NAIT north to Northgate, and also NW to St Albert.

  42. #142
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    Whether it be LRT or bus, for the time being we definitely need *something* out to the airport.

    Athens had just the bus for many years, but it was great when the metro finally got built out to the airport.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

  43. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    but who said that LRT to YEG was mutually EXCLUSIVE of the nLRT, or the nwLRT, or wLRT?
    Not mutually exclusive, but this city seems incapable of working on more than one transit project at a time.

    The backwardness of planning LRT to the airport and BRT to WEM is breathtaking.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    I took an express shuttel bus from Montreal Airport to downtown. One goes every 20 minutes. It costs $13 dollars. A lot less than an a billion (just guessing) dollar LRT extension
    What does the cost of a $13 bus ride have to do with the cost of an LRT extension? What a ridiculous statement.
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    I think, for starters, that Edmonton Transit should implement bus service to the airport. We could do this from downtown, Southgate/Century Park LRT, WEM, and Sherwood Park and St. Albert could also provide their service.

    While the LRT is a great idea, I think we should first measure the success of the bus service to the Airport first. If the airport averages 20,000 passengers per day, we should see how many take the bus.

    In the meantime, I think the city and Leduc County could collaborate on purchasing and zoning land for the LRT right-of-way.

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    What does the cost of a $13 bus ride have to do with the cost of an LRT extension? What a ridiculous statement.
    I know it gives you an ego boost to name the views of others as ridiculous Sonic, all credit to you for that, glad it makes you feel good about yourself. Makes your statement that much stronger.

    Read the thread. The point is that a number of posters had given examples of how Airport trains in other cities are very cheap. My point is that Airport express busses are cheap to ride on too, and more than adequate for Airport service (try Montreal's if you don't believe me). An express bus would cost next to nothing to set up (it could even be contracted to third parties), versus a huge cost for LRT (which will also help competing cities grow). Shame I couldn't make it simple enough for you to understand

    Once we have LRT providing growth throughout Edmonton, lets think about helping Leduc, St Albert (which is mentioned above) and Sherwood Park grow. Otherwise, if we provide growth to them first, it will be at the expense of existing Edmonton neighborhoods IMO (just another reason to not need to live in Edmonton). Millwoods, WEM, Callingwood, Castledowns and other neighborhoods have waited long enough.

    It will be interesting to see where this LRT idea goes.

  47. #147

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    MH, you have no evidence to back up your statement that YEG LRT would help regional cities grow. The southern border of Edmonton is what 3-4km from the airport? There would be no need to have a stop between our southern borders and the airport.

  48. #148

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    I think the focus right now should be getting bus service to the airport. If it is reasonably fast and affordable people will use it. Once the popularity of the bus service increases then there will be increased incentive to build LRT or some sort of rail transit to the airport. But bus service should be implemented now.

  49. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick
    MH, you have no evidence to back up your statement that YEG LRT would help regional cities grow.
    You don't think LRT access would not make living in Leduc / Nisku and comuting to Edmonton more attractive? Maybe not for you, but it would appeal more to me, and I am sure others too. Century Park is a good example of growth tied to LRT access.

    I agree we need a good express bus service now though. Let's find out how that works first, I don't see any downside.

  50. #150
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    There is no question that as our city grows and expands, Leduc, Sherwood Park etc are becoming part of the Greater Edmonton Area. Ultimately the geographical boundrys will initially grey, then disappear (say 15 years). The Airport is our "gateway" for the rest of the world to come to us.
    We should support and encourage every effort that eases the hassle of people visiting the Greater Edmonton Area from the airport. Initially multiple bus links should be established. I agree that the LRT should head East-West and North before heading further South to YEG, but let us plan now and think strategically how corridors can be designated and "reserved" for future LRT expansion.
    I am encouraged that some are thinking with a wide perspective and long term vision and not worrying about how to get elected at the next vote. On the other hand we all know that there are many important and pressing immediate issues that must be addressed, so this is a balancing act and should be treated accordingly

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    Add in the numerous power substations you would need...this might be a 200 million dollar extension.
    So less than one junction in the city!

    Think of the polution that would be saved instead of having buses running backwards and forwards.
    Edmonton, Capital of Alberta

  52. #152

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    MH, I certainly think LRT to Leduc would make it more palatable to live there. However, we are talking about LRT to the airport, not Leduc town centre. I don't think many would be willing to drive from Leduc, pay airport rates for parking, then take a $5-10 LRT ride to Edmonton.

  53. #153

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    Mick - if it is only to the airport, I think we should try an express bus first.

    I can't imagine that Nisku / Leduc would not pay for their own station / park and ride. Given this would increase ridership on LRT, it would be pretty hard to say no once the line is built.

    If the bus is a huge success (it might be), then lets look at LRT to Airport then. Hopefully by then we will have more Edmonton neighborhood access to LRT too.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    You don't think LRT access would not make living in Leduc / Nisku and comuting to Edmonton more attractive? Maybe not for you, but it would appeal more to me, and I am sure others too. Century Park is a good example of growth tied to LRT access.
    Where is all this LRT to airport is fueling sprawl coming from? The route would be to service the airport and plug it into the system. While it would be good, it's not like an airport line should come at the cost of stopping expansion in the city.

    The Airport wouldn't want commuters parking at the airport to train to work from Leduc - their parking is already completely full.

    This is about creating quick and easy access to the airport from any part of the city via the transit system. Such an amenity would be a huge advantage for visitors and travellers coming to the city.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

  55. #155

    Default

    ^ Exactly. This should not be at the expense of expansion elsewhere in the city. Although, an observation: the political opposition in certain west-end neighbourhoods makes expansion to YEG a much more palatable proposition than wLRT for some politicians. Just because one may see other lines as a priority in no way makes YEG LRT any less of a good idea and potentially excellent asset to the city.

    We all complain about the lack of forsight in planning, yet when there's an opportunity to do it, we say we don't need it yet. Would it not be a good and less expensive idea to build an ROW before we have things like utilities to move and busy intersections to tunnel under? Would it not be a good idea to run this line to valuable city attraction for minimcal cost now, while planning future SW expansion around future station hubs. Would that not make living in Edmonton proper more attractive than Leduc or Nisku?

    MH, you make so many unstated assumptions, I find it difficult to keep up. Leduc may want to pay for an extension but with the exception of the province stepping in and legislating over the city, there is nothing saying the city has to agree to let them do it. Before the city builds any regional stations, I would have to see a plan where said communities contribute to the sunk costs of LRT infrastructure above and beyond paying for the portion of line and stations in their jurisdiction.

  56. #156

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    I don't have a problem with long term planning, perhaps creating right of ways for this option. But not to be built right now, which I fear may happen (given the existing Southern expansion) without fully considering all potential consequnces. This includes whether this expansion will promote new, maybe not yet existing sprawl suburbs, and whether or not this is actually in the best interests of the city as a whole.

    However, if the goal is just to service the airport (which I accept, many may want, and is the primary motivation of many on this thread), no-one has explained why tourists could not be adequately serviced at the moment by an express bus to downtown. This works in other cities, and should be tried first IMO.

  57. #157

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    As opposed to encouraging southern sprawl, this has the potential to dictate high density growth around mass transit hubs. That is not typical suburban spawl.

    I really don't see how this would be a bad thing for the city as a whole. The only question is where it fits in the priority list. I agree wLRT and even LRT to mill woods have a stronger case for LRT now. However, no one is saying that southern expansion should be at the expense of those things. Only that it is a good idea and doing it sooner rather than later may save money. To be honest, given the opposition our inner city western suburbs have to anything going through their neighbourhoods, I would build this rather than have a 10 year court battle about where an ROW will go.

  58. #158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mick
    I really don't see how this would be a bad thing for the city as a whole.
    How do we know this, if it hasn't been properly reviewed? This is a major bug-bear of mine. We spend a small fortune preparing future growth and line plans for LRT expansion, then all of a sudden, a Hotch Potch idea comes along and gets higher priority.

    Yes, I realize many residents of Leduc, and owners of Southern land (that could be developed faster and more profitably with LRT access) are having wet dreams over this one, but lets take it one step at a time. And the first step, is an Airport express bus for tourists and business travelors.

  59. #159

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    We obviously don't know for sure. I was expressing my opinion based on observations/experiences of other municipalities with metro service to the airport. This is not a hotch potch idea. The city has secured and/or identified LRT ROW south of Henday.

    You keep mentioning Leduc yet you fail to explain how they would get a stop. Land owners are irrelevant. They are not driving this any more than North Eastern land owners are pushing a potential expansion beyond Clairview. Any LRT expansion is going to be potentially profitable for landowners near station sites.

  60. #160

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    I will have a break - my views are above. I hope we try a bus first. Even if we do the LRT to airport, there is no reason why a good express bus could not be running now.

  61. #161

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    True, express bus service is long overdue.

  62. #162

    Default What's the holdup on the airport bus?

    What's the holdup on the airport bus?

    Hicks on Six
    Sun, November 4, 2007


    Article Link:
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Colu...30000-sun.html

    WHERE'S THE BUS TO THE AIRPORT?

    It's good to hear the mayor and council want to charge ahead on multiple fronts as Steve Mandel laid out in his "90-Day Speech" at the Chamber of Commerce this past Wednesday.

    But you have to wonder how many dreams will be sucked up and dissolved in the morass that is the city hall bureaucracy.

    Here's one symbolic issue that, to my mind, sums it all up: Mandel's great rallying call has been for regional integration and regional planning but he hasn't delivered on a most easily solved, symbolic piece of the regional puzzle.

    Edmonton, the International Airport, Nisku and Leduc have long agreed: scheduled public bus service connecting the four centres would be just fine and dandy.

    Tens of thousands of us drive those home-to-work routes every day, for lack of public transport. Has anything happened?

    Not yet. Be patient. Keep waiting.

    I saw airport authority president Reg Milley at that chamber luncheon and asked him about the bus route.

    He shook his head in frustration. "We've agreed on a funding formula, on a bus route. It's now sitting in (Edmonton) city hall, waiting for who knows what," he said.

    If you want to be seen as a man of action, Mayor Steve, go kick some bureaucratic butt.

    -30-

  63. #163
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    You guys are wrong !
    The ETS U2 LRT Maximum Speed is 80km/h,
    but the ETS limit its speed by 70km/h,
    I hope the new train would be faster.

    Most delays in rush hour is cause by all self-fish Edmontonian who is NOT let the door close, because of waiting those friend or other people!

    ~JRailfan www.youtube.com/jackieliem2007 ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackieliem2007
    You guys are wrong !
    The ETS U2 LRT Maximum Speed is 80km/h,
    but the ETS limit its speed by 70km/h,
    I hope the new train would be faster.

    Most delays in rush hour is cause by all self-fish Edmontonian who is NOT let the door close, because of waiting those friend or other people!

    ~JRailfan www.youtube.com/jackieliem2007 ~
    I think you mean to 70 km/h, otherwise that's saying those LRVs won't go faster than 10 km/h!

    Anyhow, if you try holding the door open too long, the operator's likely going to come out and threaten to either fine you or kick you off the LRV for doing this. I've seen this happen a few times.

  65. #165
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    with all of this talk about opening the muni and killing the city, why doesnt another council do a press conference to announce his or her vision of an LRT to the International?

  66. #166

    Default

    There isn't much talk, just one bone headed councillor sticking his neck out, when he shouldn't.

  67. #167

    Default ETS Buses to the Airport

    Read something recently about Ottawa having buses that run to the airport. Since we do not have the LRT running out there and you either have to drive or take a cab, what do people think about ETS running buses from downtown? I think it would be a great idea and now that everyone is talking about the environment and carbon footprints etc., it would be an enviromnmentally sound option. Now of course city buses are not equipped for luggage but they could use other buses such as those used by Red Arrow or Diversified. What do you think?

  68. #168
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    Your preaching to the converted buddy.

    We have been waiting for this to happen for a while.

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    if they even just ran one from heritage TC every hr or 2 that would be cool. The lrt is going to heritage so, a bus from there to the airport is all we really need.

  70. #170
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    lets merge this with the other transit to airport threads.

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    Ive said this before and Ill say it again...... How can we have regional cooperation if the Capital Region's municipalities can't even work out running a bus to the airport.

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    Why do any other municipalities matter in this? A bus to the airport would travel from the City of Edmonton to the airport using a provincial highway. No stopping in Leduc county. No driving on roads maintained by Leduc county. Nothing for them to worry their pretty little heads about.

  73. #173

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    You guys never mention the Air Porter..

    This system is currently in place and does not cost the tax payers any money.

    $30 sum Dollars return is extremely reasonable and it can be caught at every major hotel in the city.

    Support and grow this system.

    I took the airporter in Chicago, my bags were loaded for me and then the driver took me on a scenic tour of Miracle Mile. It was very nice and I was transported on a new, A/C coach, not some little 10 person van or some hot sweaty LRT train. Well worth the almost 50 dollar round trip, half the price of a cab and way faster than Chicago's slow moving L train.

    In fact riding the L train with my luggage was an eye opening experience. During the trip to DT i had to constantly fight with my bags to ensure people could get on and off the train. The cars will ill equipped with not enough large open spaces to accommodate travelers.

    For service added reasons and all over customer satisfaction..I stand behind the airporter service.

  74. #174
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    You guys never mention the Air Porter..

    This system is currently in place and does not cost the tax payers any money.

    $30 sum Dollars return is extremely reasonable and it can be caught at every major hotel in the city.

    Support and grow this system.

    I took the airporter in Chicago, my bags were loaded for me and then the driver took me on a scenic tour of Miracle Mile. It was very nice and I was transported on a new, A/C coach, not some little 10 person van or some hot sweaty LRT train. Well worth the almost 50 dollar round trip, half the price of a cab and way faster than Chicago's slow moving L train.

    In fact riding the L train with my luggage was an eye opening experience. During the trip to DT i had to constantly fight with my bags to ensure people could get on and off the train. The cars will ill equipped with not enough large open spaces to accommodate travelers.

    For service added reasons and all over customer satisfaction..I stand behind the airporter service.
    we need public transit there as much for the people working at the airport as for the passengers. at $30, the shuttle service is not for daily commute. we need public transit there.

  75. #175
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    Airporter isn't an option for me. I'd have to take a cab to a hotel ($15 or $20) then the Airporter ($30) = $45 or $50. May as well take a cab from the house to the airport.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

  76. #176
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    24karat and grish have done a nice job pointing out the inadequacies of the Sky Shuttle. It's perfect if you're a tourist with a bunch of luggage heading to one of those major hotels. If you live here, the chances of having a stop within walking distance of your house are small so you need to take a cab anyways. If you travel light, crowded busses and trains aren't such a problem and are a lot cheaper. If you work at the airport, $30/day for transportation is way out of line. Our airport is a bit further out of the way than Ottawa's, but an airport bus would still be a decent deal for airport workers and light travelers even if it didn't accept regular passes or transfers and you had to pay a second $2.50 fare or buy a $120/month city + airport pass.

  77. #177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Denizen View Post
    Read something recently about Ottawa having buses that run to the airport. Since we do not have the LRT running out there and you either have to drive or take a cab, what do people think about ETS running buses from downtown? I think it would be a great idea and now that everyone is talking about the environment and carbon footprints etc., it would be an enviromnmentally sound option. Now of course city buses are not equipped for luggage but they could use other buses such as those used by Red Arrow or Diversified. What do you think?
    Edmonton is one of the few major cities in canada with no transit service to the airport. The fact the airport is outside the jurisidiction of Edmonton shouldn't matter - it doesn't in other cities:

    Starting on the west coast:

    British Columbia
    Victoria - limited service - outside city limits - regional transit system
    Vancouver - frequent service - outside city limits - service operates until 3:30am - regional transit system
    Kelowna - hourly service - outside city limits - regional transit system
    Kamloops - limited service - inside city limits - city transit system

    Alberta
    Calgary - 20-30 minute frequency- inside city limits - city transit system

    Manitoba
    Winnipeg - 10-15 min frequency - inside city limits - city transit system

    Ontario
    Toronto - frequent service on several routes, - 24 hour service - city transit systems and regional transit systems
    Ottawa - frequent service on busway routes - regional transit system

    Quebec
    Montreal - outside city limits (I think) 30-60 minute service, 24 hours service - regional transit system

    There must be others.
    ETS Trolley Buses - 1939 to 2010 - R.I.P.

  78. #178
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    ^ Note the phrase REGIONAL transit system in most cases. No such animal in the metro Edmonton area where there are like 3 separate transit systems.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  79. #179
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    What about car or van pools? I believe the EIA assists in organizing this for staff

  80. #180
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueline View Post
    What about car or van pools? I believe the EIA assists in organizing this for staff
    I think a public bus is the best kind of car-pooling.

  81. #181
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    Default Mayor urges halt to airport LRT line planning

    Mayor urges halt to airport LRT line planning
    Report estimates Mill Woods route may carry $1B to $2B price tag
    By Gordon KentDecember 5, 2008

    EDMONTON - Planning underway for an LRT line to the Edmonton International Airport is "ludicrous" because construction isn't likely to happen for decades, Mayor Stephen Mandel said Thursday.

    The transportation department is working with Edmonton Airports and Leduc County to recommend a route south by next spring, but Mandel said they're focusing on the issue far too early.

    "Ludicrous, isn't it? Why don't we plan when we have got close to doing work rather than putting it on the shelf until it's no longer relevant?" he asked.

    "Our administration, for the most part, doesn't know how to say stop, and neither do many councillors. We spend money on this planning stuff and 20 years later it comes back and people say, 'That doesn't make sense, let's do it again.' "

    Full Story: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...173/story.html

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    Hmmm, our lack of planning in the past has sure served us well.

  83. #183
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    Not to mention waiting decades for LRT to the airport is completely unacceptable.

  84. #184

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    Planning underway for an LRT line to the Edmonton International Airport is "ludicrous" because construction isn't likely to happen for decades, Mayor Stephen Mandel said Thursday.
    From this article it is clear that his royal highness does not understand the concept of reserving right of ways for the future!

  85. #185
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    well, if there is only two guys capable of planning and we need to be planning something more urgent such as west line (urgent or not, I am not sure. just an example), then maybe he has a point. there is, however, something to be said about being ready for when some federal or provincial support comes along we are prepared. and also with advance planning perhaps other choices will be made from an informed point of view.

    so, i agree if we are limited in the planning department and disagree if not.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedub35 View Post
    Planning underway for an LRT line to the Edmonton International Airport is "ludicrous" because construction isn't likely to happen for decades, Mayor Stephen Mandel said Thursday.
    From this article it is clear that his royal highness does not understand the concept of reserving right of ways for the future!
    well, not so obvious. I am not sure if they don't already have a ROW in mind and the planning is of more technical and specific nature. the article isn't clear on that.

  87. #187

    Default

    well, not so obvious. I am not sure if they don't already have a ROW in mind and the planning is of more technical and specific nature. the article isn't clear on that.
    "When the county is doing land-use planning and trying to find out how that area would eventually develop, what kind of employment areas, what kind of industrial area ... the question of how you are going to serve them with transit comes up," he said.

    "It sets the framework so if a developer wants to build a big warehouse when we're ready to come in, we don't have a bunch of buildings in our way."

  88. #188
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    Planning makes sense! Thats why we had transportation corridors around Edmonton & Calgary 30 years before roads were built in them. Then again, Edmonton's planning has always had issues, but usually more with actually implementing the plans (Freeways).

  89. #189
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    If planning so far in advance doesn't make sense why is so much time and money being wasted on the plan showing future areas for housing?
    Edmonton, Capital of Alberta

  90. #190

    Default

    The mayor has only one vote. Also, if you think that this YEG LRT planning must be continued let the CoE know.

    Call the citizen action line, or the mayor or your councillors or all of them and make your opinions known.

    Office of the Mayor and Councillors 780-496-8100
    Citizen Action Centre 780-496-8200

    BTW, the Edmonton Sun's poll as of 10:30 December 05 results are:


    Should the LRT be expanded to the international airport?
    Yes 78%
    No 22%
    Total Votes for this Question: 1248

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    Wow, I'm surprised at the response to the poll. That's unusual for SUN readers.

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    If this keeps up, we just might see a coalition of councillors try & take over the mayors office.

  93. #193
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    One can plan and allocate corridors while its still farm land fairly cheaply, it makes sense IF the municipal airport is closed to plan an LRT corridor there are well. If its not going to be closed then maybe you route the LRT either on the west side of NAIT on 109th St or down 106/107th Streets

    How much would it have saved when the CN moved out of downtown the city made an LRT corridor along 104th Ave and 124th street? You could have had the LRT to Oliver Square very economically and perhaps extended it west on Stony Plain Road.

    But then his royal nimbyness the mayor might feel the LRT is way to close to his house and attract undesirable people like voters near his house.
    Last edited by sundance; 05-12-2008 at 12:23 PM.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobW View Post
    I love this kind of survey results. They show that we really do have something going for us in Edmonton, and it's not ALL to do with oil.

    Edmonton City Council and residents must not forget that we see these results here because of a wide variety of conditions and initiatives. In these uncertain financial times it's more important than ever to continue with growth plans, infrastructure and new community investments. Keep thinking long-term without getting stuck in current crisis. Focus on the Edmonton VISION.

    Some other good news from the Fraser Institute yesterday is all related: "Alberta is still ranked No. 1 for investors". Let's keep the momentum going!

    http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsa...ews/6372.aspx#
    I posted the above quote in the "Alberta Bucks National Employment Trend" topic, but it seems as appropriate here too.

    I've always believed that much of the financial "crises" like the current one takes place in the head. Panic selling spreads to other markets, people become uncertain of financial future stop buying and investing, or wait until markets "hit bottom". These actions contribute to the "boom and bust cycle".

    These crises are always temporary. Capital project planning, design and implementation stages typically take years to complete. I cannot remember a financial crisis that lasted as long as a typical civic project.

    I believe much more can be gained if more communities (and people) stuck with their "vision" and long-term planning processes no matter the economic climate of the day. That is the way to win in the long run. Just ask Warren Buffett.
    Where there's a will, there are a hundred ways!

  95. #195

    Default

    I'm telling you guys, Mandel doesn't know transportation. It's by far his weakest point. Not only trolleys, not only NLRT, not only 23rd Ave...

    In his defense his second weakest point does pale in comparison, but transportation may be starting to outweigh his strengths.

    I hope council finds it in them to disagree.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedub35 View Post
    Planning underway for an LRT line to the Edmonton International Airport is "ludicrous" because construction isn't likely to happen for decades, Mayor Stephen Mandel said Thursday.
    From this article it is clear that his royal highness does not understand the concept of reserving right of ways for the future!

    Mandel is a true visionary.

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    I agree JayBee... Transportation is definitely Mandels weak point in politics. He seems pretty clueless when discussing most things transportation related.

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    I disagree. Mandel is the first mayor to dig the train out of the ground and actually begin expansion. without reading the article, i would assume that we want an appropriate planning and development system for our biggest municipal transportation needs - like, some of you will agree, slrt, nlrt, and wlrt. he is basically recognizing that we need to save money bcuz the worst (poo) to hit the fan these days is still coming, and the current projects - slrt, nlrt - deserve all possible resources. personally, i believe that the airport lrt concept can be shelved until the other lines are in some stage of final planning, early construction. patience is a .......

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    Without a vision, we won't make plans. Without plans, we won't get anything done. Sounds like my vision of LRT to the airport in the next decade or two doesn't match Mandel's vision, or else he'd be approving those plans. I think LRT to the airport is one of the things I would most like to see this city accomplish in the next decade. Yes, I don't know how much it would cost. But I'd like to know the cost. And, perhaps the city/province/feds could build the line then focus growth along that line... But imagine... asking someone for a ride to the airport and they gladly drive you the 10 minutes it takes to get to the nearest LRT station... nice!

    I'd go so far to suggest that they should close the muni and use the extra money gained through better use of that land to pay for LRT to the International. If LRT went to YEG then it would not be so inconvenient to get there compared to YXD (the muni).

    Another consideration is: Is LRT best for going to the airport? Perhaps a higher speed train or another mode is better? And, in the interim, I think we need to at least look into having scheduled ETS service from Century Park LRT to the Airport. The airport is far away from the city. The city can either make that a big con for the city or mitigate the distance factor by improving transportation infrastructure to there.

  100. #200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DTrobotnik View Post
    I disagree. Mandel is the first mayor to dig the train out of the ground and actually begin expansion.
    Are you sure about this? The approval to bring the LRT to the surface happened before Mandel took office. I believe it was during Bill Smith's reign.
    Last edited by deedub35; 05-12-2008 at 01:20 PM.

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