Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 145

Thread: Second Annual Israel Apartheid Week

  1. #1

    Default Second Annual Israel Apartheid Week

    Over twenty years, we saw the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa, a regime where an ethnic minority set legal and social barriers to separate the "races" in that country. People such as Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu had worked towards bringing an end to that regime and played an integral role in reconciliation between the factions.

    Presently, we are seeing a similar phenomenon in Israel - but much like in the fight against apartheid in South Africa, the important thing to keep in mind is that this event is not to demonize or to make Israel "the enemy", rather to acknowledge that both side has a stake in bringing peace to the region and that there are people from both sides who can see the problems in the way the Israeli government is segregating people according to their ethnic/religious background. This event is to send a message to the Israeli government that apartheid practices is not an instrument for peace.

    Here is a link to the events calendar:

    http://edmonton.apartheidweek.org/

  2. #2

    Default

    ^I have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause (an injustice to one people, doesn't justify an injustice to another), but the comparison to apartheid is silly. There are many Palestinians with Israeli citizenship who vote, there are not restrictions on them doing so. Israel is the most democratic country in the middle east.

    At issue, is what constitutes Israel, and what doesn't. I dislike the settlements, and the other fighting over land, be it by the Israeli or Palestinian side. But, this is what religion does, religious people fight over land considered significant to them, throughout history. At the end of the day, it isn't my job to care if they kill each other over stupidity (i.e. religion), and it surprises me that a student body in Edmonton really thinks I should.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I have some sympathy for the Palestinian cause (an injustice to one people, doesn't justify an injustice to another), but the comparison to apartheid is silly. There are many Palestinians with Israeli citizenship who vote, there are not restrictions on them doing so. Israel is the most democratic country in the middle east.

    At issue, is what constitutes Israel, and what doesn't. I dislike the settlements, and the other fighting over land, be it by the Israeli or Palestinian side. But, this is what religion does, religious people fight over land considered significant to them, throughout history. At the end of the day, it isn't my job to care if they kill each other over stupidity (i.e. religion), and it surprises me that a student body in Edmonton really thinks I should.
    It's more than religion - it's strictly about land and who gets control of the land. Many non-Jewish residents within Israel, despite having equal rights on paper, are victims of legal and institutionalized discrimination. That's what these seminars are about - to get the experiences first hand from both the Palestinians and Jews who lives in the region who can see the injustices brought on to the non-Jewish populations by the Israeli government.

  4. #4
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,277

    Default

    Some differences to South Africa are; that the colored people in South Africa weren't lobbing hundreds of rockets into the white areas, they weren't for the most part doing suicide attacks against white people.

    Ask yourself this question, what would USA do if Canada was sending rockets into USA? The answer is pretty obvious, they would attack us pretty much overnight. So why do you expect Israel to do differently?

    After reading through the site, I think I might decide to start shopping at Mountain Equipment Co-op (even though they are higher priced).
    Last edited by sundance; 01-03-2010 at 05:21 PM.

  5. #5
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughtermaster View Post

    It's more than religion - it's strictly about land and who gets control of the land. Many non-Jewish residents within Israel, despite having equal rights on paper, are victims of legal and institutionalized discrimination. That's what these seminars are about - to get the experiences first hand from both the Palestinians and Jews who lives in the region who can see the injustices brought on to the non-Jewish populations by the Israeli government.
    This is simply not true. There are many non-Jewish members of the israeli parliament. there are no restrictions on work, residence, or any other civil rights. There are no limitations on the right to travel unless one wished to travel to a foreign state, in which case standard restrictions apply.

    This whole "Israel Apartheid" week is a veiled hate fest. The only way to bring about peace in the region is not by singling out one of two sides who are doing the fighting. They need to negotiate and they both need to stop fighting. As such, pressure needs to be placed on BOTH sides simultaneously to ensure a long-lasting peace. From what I understand, Israel needs to withdraw military from the palestinian territory and allow self-governance. On the other side, Palestinians need to recognize Israel and to stop threatening to kill everyone living there (this mostly applies to Hamas).

    This particular event is designed to put pressure on ONLY ONE side out of two to gain concessions for the other. The choice of focus is very ironic and extremely unfortunate, unfair, and biased considering that under attack is the only true democracy in the region. Talking about apartheid, there used to me very large jewish populations in Egypt, Jordan, Sirya, Lebanon, and what is now Palestinian territory. Most of those communities have all but vanished.

  6. #6
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    From the opening paragraph in the website:
    In 2010, there are approximately 11 million people who live in Palestine/Israel. Half are Israeli Jews and half are Palestinians, but the trend is that Palestinians are becoming the clear majority. The reality today is that the Israeli government effectively rules over all these people, but they do not all have equal rights. Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of the most fundamental civil, political, economic, educational and cultural rights as their land is under relentless assault from settlers and they are relegated to a separate road network. Within Israel, Palestinian citizens have some rights, but face institutionalized and legal discrimination.
    1. The reality today is that the Israeli government effectively rules over all these people...
    The governing body is the Israeli parliament with members elected through regular elections. There are people of every religion and race represented in the parliament. Like the Canadian government rules over the English-speaking and the French-speaking canadians, the Israeli government rules over the Hebrew and Arabic-speaking Israelis. Btw, both of those languages are the official languages of Israel.
    2. Israel has not been occupying Gaza for many years now. The unilateral withdrawal was largely seen as a test whether self-governance in gaza will lead to reduced hostilities and eventual peace. The ensuing rocket fire from there helped to convince many israelis to not make any more unilateral moves.

    ... and that is why apartheid week is a completely useless event designed to promote the interests of one side and not the promotion of peace between the two people.

  7. #7
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    From the opening paragraph in the website:
    In 2010, there are approximately 11 million people who live in Palestine/Israel. Half are Israeli Jews and half are Palestinians, but the trend is that Palestinians are becoming the clear majority. The reality today is that the Israeli government effectively rules over all these people, but they do not all have equal rights. Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of the most fundamental civil, political, economic, educational and cultural rights as their land is under relentless assault from settlers and they are relegated to a separate road network. Within Israel, Palestinian citizens have some rights, but face institutionalized and legal discrimination.
    1. The reality today is that the Israeli government effectively rules over all these people...
    The governing body is the Israeli parliament with members elected through regular elections. There are people of every religion and race represented in the parliament. Like the Canadian government rules over the English-speaking and the French-speaking canadians, the Israeli government rules over the Hebrew and Arabic-speaking Israelis. Btw, both of those languages are the official languages of Israel.
    2. Israel has not been occupying Gaza for many years now. The unilateral withdrawal was largely seen as a test whether self-governance in gaza will lead to reduced hostilities and eventual peace. The ensuing rocket fire from there helped to convince many israelis to not make any more unilateral moves.

    ... and that is why apartheid week is a completely useless event designed to promote the interests of one side and not the promotion of peace between the two people.
    agreed completely - once again. the very name seems designed to promote - or at the least to rationalize - more conflict than to promote mutual respect and resolution. as for the proposed boycotting of mec for selling goods from israel in favour of purchasing alternative goods from who knows what sweatshops with child labour, that's an agenda speaking and little more.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  8. #8
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    2,482

    Default

    I hope the organizers are planning apartheid weeks for other countries too. China for example (tibet).

    Otherwise this reeks of anti-semitism.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughtermaster View Post

    It's more than religion - it's strictly about land and who gets control of the land. Many non-Jewish residents within Israel, despite having equal rights on paper, are victims of legal and institutionalized discrimination. That's what these seminars are about - to get the experiences first hand from both the Palestinians and Jews who lives in the region who can see the injustices brought on to the non-Jewish populations by the Israeli government.
    This is simply not true. There are many non-Jewish members of the israeli parliament. there are no restrictions on work, residence, or any other civil rights. There are no limitations on the right to travel unless one wished to travel to a foreign state, in which case standard restrictions apply.

    This whole "Israel Apartheid" week is a veiled hate fest. The only way to bring about peace in the region is not by singling out one of two sides who are doing the fighting. They need to negotiate and they both need to stop fighting. As such, pressure needs to be placed on BOTH sides simultaneously to ensure a long-lasting peace. From what I understand, Israel needs to withdraw military from the palestinian territory and allow self-governance. On the other side, Palestinians need to recognize Israel and to stop threatening to kill everyone living there (this mostly applies to Hamas).

    This particular event is designed to put pressure on ONLY ONE side out of two to gain concessions for the other. The choice of focus is very ironic and extremely unfortunate, unfair, and biased considering that under attack is the only true democracy in the region. Talking about apartheid, there used to me very large jewish populations in Egypt, Jordan, Sirya, Lebanon, and what is now Palestinian territory. Most of those communities have all but vanished.

    Grish, that is completely not true.
    You say it's a hate fest but since when has Israel ever agreed to any of the sanctions from the UN, the Goldstone report, and most recently the Dubai assassination. Explain how Israel sending out hit squads is any different that Hamas' rockets?

    http://www.mujahideenryder.net/2009/...stinian-woman/

    That is disrespectful.

  10. #10
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Grish, that is completely not true.
    You say it's a hate fest but since when has Israel ever agreed to any of the sanctions from the UN, the Goldstone report, and most recently the Dubai assassination. Explain how Israel sending out hit squads is any different that Hamas' rockets?

    http://www.mujahideenryder.net/2009/...stinian-woman/

    That is disrespectful.
    As I was saying, singling out one side while completely ignoring the actions of the other is not helpful and will never bring about long lasting peace. While Israel has to make concessions, the Palestinians need to agree to peace and make concessions as well. The biggest concession from the Palestinians (Hamas specifically) is to abandon their calls for the destruction (read: mass murder of the Jewish ihabitants) of Israel.

    I am not sure what that little link is supposed to prove or illustrate. There are idiots on both sides and this guy should be charged with assault. His actions, however, cannot not be equated with the policies of the government. If we confuse the actions of one with the policies of the government, we would be concluding that Canada is against public bus drivers following few recent assaults on bus drivers in Edmonton.

  11. #11
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Many of us who can see both sides of this issue lost just a little bit of sympathy when Arafat turned down the deal that Clinton brokered. They were offered everything they said they wanted and then said no. There are no angels in this at all. But the Palestinians are going to have to accept the existence of Israel just as much as Israel will have to accept a Palestinian state.

  12. #12
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,277

    Default

    Explain how Israel sending out hit squads is any different that Hamas' rockets?
    Interesting Armin that you chose that phrase, the individual who was killed in Dubai Mahmoud Rauf al-Mabhouh was a founding member of the military arm of Hamas. He was directly involved in the death of two Israeli soldiers.

    Associated Press article http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...iYk7wD9DUG6B80

  13. #13
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    I just have to shake my head at those who point to one side or the other as being the victims or villains in all of this.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughtermaster View Post

    It's more than religion - it's strictly about land and who gets control of the land. Many non-Jewish residents within Israel, despite having equal rights on paper, are victims of legal and institutionalized discrimination. That's what these seminars are about - to get the experiences first hand from both the Palestinians and Jews who lives in the region who can see the injustices brought on to the non-Jewish populations by the Israeli government.
    This is simply not true. There are many non-Jewish members of the israeli parliament. there are no restrictions on work, residence, or any other civil rights. There are no limitations on the right to travel unless one wished to travel to a foreign state, in which case standard restrictions apply.

    This whole "Israel Apartheid" week is a veiled hate fest. The only way to bring about peace in the region is not by singling out one of two sides who are doing the fighting. They need to negotiate and they both need to stop fighting. As such, pressure needs to be placed on BOTH sides simultaneously to ensure a long-lasting peace. From what I understand, Israel needs to withdraw military from the palestinian territory and allow self-governance. On the other side, Palestinians need to recognize Israel and to stop threatening to kill everyone living there (this mostly applies to Hamas).

    This particular event is designed to put pressure on ONLY ONE side out of two to gain concessions for the other. The choice of focus is very ironic and extremely unfortunate, unfair, and biased considering that under attack is the only true democracy in the region. Talking about apartheid, there used to me very large jewish populations in Egypt, Jordan, Sirya, Lebanon, and what is now Palestinian territory. Most of those communities have all but vanished.

    Grish, that is completely not true.
    You say it's a hate fest but since when has Israel ever agreed to any of the sanctions from the UN, the Goldstone report, and most recently the Dubai assassination. Explain how Israel sending out hit squads is any different that Hamas' rockets?

    http://www.mujahideenryder.net/2009/...stinian-woman/

    That is disrespectful.

    Oh my...how ignorance is bliss...
    Israel doesn't have to "agree" to any "sanctions" by the UN b/c the bulk of UN is dominated by arab/muslim/leaftleaning countries who hate anythig that is Jewish... in a word: the UN is rigged.
    Please get real and read a little.
    The "Dubai hit", first and foremost, was not done by Israel, there is no proof yet it was (even the Hamas is saying today it was either Egypt or Jordan)..but even if it was Israel, since when killing a terrorist mastermind a crime? it should be praised not condemned.
    This "Apartheid week" is indeed a hatefest promoted by terrorist supporters who advocate the elimination of Israel.
    The moment they start discussing the Arab discrimination against jews, christians, women and gays in arab countries I will start having some sympathy for the cause.... in the meantime it's just a propaganda drive that preys on the ignorant and the gullible like you....

  15. #15
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    I just have to shake my head at those who point to one side or the other as being the victims or villains in all of this.
    exactly. I hope this message came through in my posts, so I will agree with this to make sure it does. "Israel Apartheid" thing is the complete opposite of what is needed to bring peace. I absolutely refuse to take part in this hate propaganda exercise.

  16. #16
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    I just have to shake my head at those who point to one side or the other as being the victims or villains in all of this.
    exactly. I hope this message came through in my posts, so I will agree with this to make sure it does. "Israel Apartheid" thing is the complete opposite of what is needed to bring peace. I absolutely refuse to take part in this hate propaganda exercise.
    Ummm, if you think that this movement is a "hate propaganda exercise", then you're the kind of person JasonR should be shaking his head at. There are real issues in Israel relating to institutionalized racism and discrimination against Palestinians and Arabs. Israel is very much a "Jewish" state, the very UN resolution that called for it's creation stated as such and so do it's basic laws (interestingly enough, they don't appear to have a formal constitution).

    Is it comparable to South Africa under apartheid? Of course not. They're clearly reaching by drawing that comparison, and they might well not have a well reasoned point to stand on.

    But they're entitled to their opinion without it being labeled "hate propaganda." Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere on their website to they argue for the destruction of Israel, expulsion of Jews, or anything else even remotely resembling hate speech. They have a different political viewpoint on the situation than you. Quite possibly it's egregiously and provably wrong. That doesn't make it hate speech.

  17. #17
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    This is one of those issues that just gets people so riled up. But in the end both sides have been total villains to each other. The Palestinians seem to want the destruction of Israel rather than a shared state or a two state model. The Israelis always answer an attack with an attack ten times stronger. It never ends. I don't understand how a nation-state that is a democracy can be based on race and religion, but that's what both sides have ended up doing. It's terrible.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere on their website to they argue for the destruction of Israel, expulsion of Jews, or anything else even remotely resembling hate speech. They have a different political viewpoint on the situation than you. Quite possibly it's egregiously and provably wrong. That doesn't make it hate speech.
    I will correct you. You're wrong.
    Their website

    http://edmonton.apartheidweek.org/

    shows the map if Israel labeled as "Palestinian" with the "Palestinian" colours and 2 arabs.. if that is not advocating hate I do not know what is... Until Arabs come to terms with the fact that they need to stop hating Israel and realise the world will come to ashes before Israel dissapears, until then, there will not be peace in the region and Arabs will have a hard time getting support from those not aligned with terrorists or the extreme left.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    This is one of those issues that just gets people so riled up. But in the end both sides have been total villains to each other. The Palestinians seem to want the destruction of Israel rather than a shared state or a two state model. The Israelis always answer an attack with an attack ten times stronger. It never ends. I don't understand how a nation-state that is a democracy can be based on race and religion, but that's what both sides have ended up doing. It's terrible.
    Palestinians have for a long time been willing to settle on a two state model but that doesn't mean at all costs. They have asked for the pre-1967 borders to be drawn and the dismantling of hundreds (yes hundreds) of settlements housing hundreds of thousands of settlers on Palestinian land. But Israel has never agreed to do so because it serves as a strategic location to grab land and control any future Palestinian state.

    Look at the map of Palestine in 1930 and then 1948 and then 1967 and 2010. As they say, picture is worth a thousand words.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post


    Grish, that is completely not true.
    You say it's a hate fest but since when has Israel ever agreed to any of the sanctions from the UN, the Goldstone report, and most recently the Dubai assassination. Explain how Israel sending out hit squads is any different that Hamas' rockets?

    http://www.mujahideenryder.net/2009/...stinian-woman/

    That is disrespectful.
    How is the targetted assination of a Hamas leader by an (until now) unknown group different than the indiscrimante bombing of civilians? Oh that's a tough one...

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    Many of us who can see both sides of this issue lost just a little bit of sympathy when Arafat turned down the deal that Clinton brokered. They were offered everything they said they wanted and then said no. There are no angels in this at all. But the Palestinians are going to have to accept the existence of Israel just as much as Israel will have to accept a Palestinian state.
    Israel has existed for last 60 odd years and with one of the largest armies in the world backed by the sole superpower in the world, both of whom possess nuclear weapons, it's not going anywhere.

    A better question is whether Israel and its supporters are willing to accept a Palestinian state not controlled and at the mercy of Israel?

  22. #22

    Default

    Before this degrades into a full fledged heated argument on Middle East politics, I'd like to say that both sides have made mistakes. Palestinians are not completely innocent and neither is Israel.

  23. #23
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    This does not compute. Consider the actions. The state of Israel gave up land for peace with Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Gaza. With the last two, instead of peace they got artilery attacks closer to the populated areas. I would excuse them being reluctant in pulling back more until peace is agreed upon. The last two pull backs were done unilaterally without a reciprocal gesture. This is why I do not believe that you can single out only one side of this conflict and label them villians. There should have beena gesture in kind towards peace from the other side of the conflict.

    Marcel,
    Jason shook his head (correct me Jason if this is not the case) at people who single out one side. This event singles out one side. I point to the fact that both sides need concessions such as Israel pulling out and Palestinians opting for a long lasting peace accord. Any event singling out only one of two sides with made up causes is a hatefest.

  24. #24
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    This is one of those issues that just gets people so riled up. But in the end both sides have been total villains to each other. The Palestinians seem to want the destruction of Israel rather than a shared state or a two state model. The Israelis always answer an attack with an attack ten times stronger. It never ends. I don't understand how a nation-state that is a democracy can be based on race and religion, but that's what both sides have ended up doing. It's terrible.
    Palestinians have for a long time been willing to settle on a two state model but that doesn't mean at all costs. They have asked for the pre-1967 borders to be drawn and the dismantling of hundreds (yes hundreds) of settlements housing hundreds of thousands of settlers on Palestinian land. But Israel has never agreed to do so because it serves as a strategic location to grab land and control any future Palestinian state.

    Look at the map of Palestine in 1930 and then 1948 and then 1967 and 2010. As they say, picture is worth a thousand words.
    They got everything they asked for in the deal Clinton negotiated and Arafat said no. To be fair to Israel, they have dismantled settlements, they have agreed on a Palestinian state.

  25. #25

    Default

    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.

  26. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

  27. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    This is one of those issues that just gets people so riled up. But in the end both sides have been total villains to each other. The Palestinians seem to want the destruction of Israel rather than a shared state or a two state model. The Israelis always answer an attack with an attack ten times stronger. It never ends. I don't understand how a nation-state that is a democracy can be based on race and religion, but that's what both sides have ended up doing. It's terrible.
    Palestinians have for a long time been willing to settle on a two state model but that doesn't mean at all costs. They have asked for the pre-1967 borders to be drawn and the dismantling of hundreds (yes hundreds) of settlements housing hundreds of thousands of settlers on Palestinian land. But Israel has never agreed to do so because it serves as a strategic location to grab land and control any future Palestinian state.

    Look at the map of Palestine in 1930 and then 1948 and then 1967 and 2010. As they say, picture is worth a thousand words.
    They got everything they asked for in the deal Clinton negotiated and Arafat said no. To be fair to Israel, they have dismantled settlements, they have agreed on a Palestinian state.
    Dismantling a few settlements when hundreds exist doesn't mean much. But I also understand that there are interest groups in Israel who are completely against such actions so when the government tries to do anything, there is great opposition.

    Bush was the first US President to explicity demand the existence of a Palestinian state. The fact that it took 40 odd years for someone to do it shows how concept of a Palestinian state is treated.

  28. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
    with the 'slight' differences that the prawns in the movie didn't fire rockets at civilians on the other side nor did they blow themselves in buses to kill hundreds of innnocent ppl.... oh...and the prawns didn't want the population on the other side to be thrown to the sea... these are just slight differences ...other than that, yeah, poor pals.

  29. #29

    Default

    In or outside of Gaza and the West Bank - it's still not a comperable situation to South Africa during 'apartheid'.

    The plight of Palestinians in Isreal and in the occupied territories is often overlooked and I applaud the organizers of the event for attempting to bring that our attention. Still, the use of the word 'apartheid' and the comparison that the organizers are trying to play off is unnaceptable and out of context. They'll get nowhere with an approach that tries to vilify the other party from the start rather than engaging them.

  30. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
    with the 'slight' differences that the prawns in the movie didn't fire rockets at civilians on the other side nor did they blow themselves in buses to kill hundreds of innnocent ppl.... oh...and the prawns didn't want the population on the other side to be thrown to the sea... these are just slight differences ...other than that, yeah, poor pals.
    To say oppression shouldn't be fought is a very unrealistic stand. Yes, the methods should be appropriate but to lay the entire blame based on the wrong methods is incorrect.

    Yes, the Palestinians should be smarter about how they resist but does that absolve Israel of the oppression and injustice that caused this reaction?

  31. #31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
    with the 'slight' differences that the prawns in the movie didn't fire rockets at civilians on the other side nor did they blow themselves in buses to kill hundreds of innnocent ppl.... oh...and the prawns didn't want the population on the other side to be thrown to the sea... these are just slight differences ...other than that, yeah, poor pals.
    It's comments like yours that make these debates really annoying.
    Israel killed hundreds of people last year and they'll never be held accountable for that, and that kind of one sided bias is a problem.

    You're blaming Palestinians as a group because some rebels launch crappy rockets that have killed less than 20 people in 10 years. Israel used white phosporous on civilians.

    And since when is assassination recognized as a substitute for international law?

  32. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
    with the 'slight' differences that the prawns in the movie didn't fire rockets at civilians on the other side nor did they blow themselves in buses to kill hundreds of innnocent ppl.... oh...and the prawns didn't want the population on the other side to be thrown to the sea... these are just slight differences ...other than that, yeah, poor pals.
    It's comments like yours that make these debates really annoying.
    Israel killed hundreds of people last year and they'll never be held accountable for that, and that kind of one sided bias is a problem.

    You're blaming Palestinians as a group because some rebels launch crappy rockets that have killed less than 20 people in 10 years. Israel used white phosporous on civilians.

    And since when is assassination recognized as a substitute for international law?
    I'm not blaming anyone... I just don't resort to lies and the propaganda machine used by the arabs and their 'rebel' brothers (aka as terrorists)

    I am just stating facts: more than 2000 rockets fell on Israel from Gaza from 2008 until the war was launched:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2008

    What would the U.S do if Canada fired more than 2000 rockets into their territory? Canada would simply cease to exist...Of course Canada and the US are civilised nations so this would never happen, but i just use the example to illustrate the fact that Israel is 100% justified in launching a war to defend its citizens...

    If you want to defend your cause use facts not made-up propagandistic lies..

  33. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debos View Post
    You are correct Faraz. Though, the name of this event would indicate otherwise. Perhaps the meaning of the Dutch word 'apartheid' could be applicable but the conotations it carries do not make for a suitable comparison.
    My understanding when I read the title was that it's referring to the treatment of the Palestinians within the territories. I think many people mistook it to mean inside Israel.

    Watching the movie District 9, the conditions of the aliens reminded me of Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
    with the 'slight' differences that the prawns in the movie didn't fire rockets at civilians on the other side nor did they blow themselves in buses to kill hundreds of innnocent ppl.... oh...and the prawns didn't want the population on the other side to be thrown to the sea... these are just slight differences ...other than that, yeah, poor pals.
    It's comments like yours that make these debates really annoying.
    Israel killed hundreds of people last year and they'll never be held accountable for that, and that kind of one sided bias is a problem.

    You're blaming Palestinians as a group because some rebels launch crappy rockets that have killed less than 20 people in 10 years. Israel used white phosporous on civilians.

    And since when is assassination recognized as a substitute for international law?
    I'm not blaming anyone... I just don't resort to lies and the propaganda machine used by the arabs and their 'rebel' brothers (aka as terrorists)

    I am just stating facts: more than 2000 rockets fell on Israel from Gaza from 2008 until the war was launched:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2008

    What would the U.S do if Canada fired more than 2000 rockets into their territory? Canada would simply cease to exist...Of course Canada and the US are civilised nations so this would never happen, but i just use the example to illustrate the fact that Israel is 100% justified in launching a war to defend its citizens...

    If you want to defend your cause use facts not made-up propagandistic lies..
    I think you forgot to mention one statistic....how many Palestianians were killed, how many children died, how many houses destroyed because of the Israeli occuption since 1967?

    And since you bought it up, how many Israelis died from those rocket attacks?

  34. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    I think you forgot to mention one statistic....how many Palestianians were killed, how many children died, how many houses destroyed because of the Israeli occuption since 1967?

    No I didn't forget...Lots of arabs have been killed by Israel and lots of Isrealis have been killed by arabs as well...
    About 50,000 between them... since 1948... but don't forget that muslims have killed more arabs than anyone else...more than 10,000,000 (yes, 10 million) since 1950...Funny how the arab propaganda machine forgets these statistics and concentrates on the (yes, terrible) 25,000+ deaths inflicted by Israelis on arabs...

    And since you bought it up, how many Israelis died from those rocket attacks?
    I dunno, about 5?... what i'm saying is that having 2000 rockets fall on your head day and night is not nice and I would want my government to crush whoever is firing those rockets and doesn't let me sleep...Again, what country would tolerate that? Israel is to blame in that they let 2000 rockets fall on their citizens and didnt act with full force

    And remember, if those attacks did not take place not a single arab would have died in Gaza.. The arabs only have themselves to blame...Informed people will not fall prey to propaganda..so the propagandistic attacks on Israel are really laughable to those with access to the internet

  35. #35
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    This is one of those issues that just gets people so riled up. But in the end both sides have been total villains to each other. The Palestinians seem to want the destruction of Israel rather than a shared state or a two state model. The Israelis always answer an attack with an attack ten times stronger. It never ends. I don't understand how a nation-state that is a democracy can be based on race and religion, but that's what both sides have ended up doing. It's terrible.
    Palestinians have for a long time been willing to settle on a two state model but that doesn't mean at all costs. They have asked for the pre-1967 borders to be drawn and the dismantling of hundreds (yes hundreds) of settlements housing hundreds of thousands of settlers on Palestinian land. But Israel has never agreed to do so because it serves as a strategic location to grab land and control any future Palestinian state.

    Look at the map of Palestine in 1930 and then 1948 and then 1967 and 2010. As they say, picture is worth a thousand words.
    They got everything they asked for in the deal Clinton negotiated and Arafat said no. To be fair to Israel, they have dismantled settlements, they have agreed on a Palestinian state.
    Dismantling a few settlements when hundreds exist doesn't mean much. But I also understand that there are interest groups in Israel who are completely against such actions so when the government tries to do anything, there is great opposition.

    Bush was the first US President to explicity demand the existence of a Palestinian state. The fact that it took 40 odd years for someone to do it shows how concept of a Palestinian state is treated.

    Don't get me wrong, my friend. I don't entirely disagree with you, although I think that you aren't giving enough credit to Israel. If it were up to the hardliners in Israel all of the occupied territories would be amalgamated with Israel as spoils of war. To dismantle any settlements was massively controversial in Israel. And considering the attempts to make peace and the results, you'll have to understand why there are many who just don't believe that the Palestinians want peace with Israel at all.

    For my part, I believe that many on both sides are fed up with old hatreds and want to move forward, while too many others still hold on to old hatreds.

  36. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    I think you forgot to mention one statistic....how many Palestianians were killed, how many children died, how many houses destroyed because of the Israeli occuption since 1967?

    No I didn't forget...Lots of arabs have been killed by Israel and lots of Isrealis have been killed by arabs as well...
    About 50,000 between them... since 1948... but don't forget that muslims have killed more arabs than anyone else...more than 10,000,000 (yes, 10 million) since 1950...Funny how the arab propaganda machine forgets these statistics and concentrates on the (yes, terrible) 25,000+ deaths inflicted by Israelis on arabs...

    And since you bought it up, how many Israelis died from those rocket attacks?
    I dunno, about 5?... what i'm saying is that having 2000 rockets fall on your head day and night is not nice and I would want my government to crush whoever is firing those rockets and doesn't let me sleep...Again, what country would tolerate that? Israel is to blame in that they let 2000 rockets fall on their citizens and didnt act with full force

    And remember, if those attacks did not take place not a single arab would have died in Gaza.. The arabs only have themselves to blame...Informed people will not fall prey to propaganda..so the propagandistic attacks on Israel are really laughable to those with access to the internet
    Day and night? Ten years is 3650 days. 2000 rockets. I think your statement is a little hyperbolic, especially since in the last few years, rocket attacks have decreased exponentially and the majority of those rockets were back 5-10 years ago.

    There was another article in the Journal today on Israeli settlement expansion. They don't have enough land so they keep building giant walls and pushing back the Palestinians.

    http://www.wake-up-america.net/apart...s/image004.jpg

    http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591...estine_map.jpg

  37. #37
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    something to think about before taking in on the hate-fest:

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/techn...768/story.html

  38. #38

    Default

    ^
    That article is the exact reason why non Israeli Jewish people should distance themselves from what the government of Israel does. How Israel treats the Palestinians and acts internationally just enflames anti semetic groups like the KKK.

  39. #39
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    you got THAT out of the article? wow

  40. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    something to think about before taking in on the hate-fest:

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/techn...768/story.html
    It's an article which tries to defend Israel by saying others are worse. It doesn't address the issue of the apartheid like treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis.

    Points fingers and stereotypes other groups while ironically complaining about the same treatment.

  41. #41

    Default

    From your article Grish:

    One of those organizations, the Ottawa Public Interest Research Group, refused in 2008 to promote a lecture on African development because Jewish students at the University of Ottawa happened to be organizing it. The event had zero connection to Israel but OPIRG said it wouldn’t partner with the Jewish students’ union due to the latter’s “relationship to apartheid Israel.”

    I found this article to counter your article.

    http://jewschool.com/2010/03/02/2131...partheid-week/




  42. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    something to think about before taking in on the hate-fest:

    http://www.montrealgazette.com/techn...768/story.html
    It's an article which tries to defend Israel by saying others are worse. It doesn't address the issue of the apartheid like treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis.

    Points fingers and stereotypes other groups while ironically complaining about the same treatment.
    its a superb article .... "pal" supporters are a joke, they are resorting to the same tactics of the 1930s nazis... too bad for them the world is not as ignorant as they'd like it to be..... more than a hatefest i'd call it a terrorfest because the organisers have the exact same tactics as the muslim terrorists such as hamas , hezbollah...which have graciously been called in here "rebels"...lol...what a hoot...

  43. #43

    Default

    That article is one sided. Read the one I posted for some more perspective.

    Israel is just as bad as Hamas as far as i'm concerned.

  44. #44
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,126

    Default

    As a general comment on the situation as a whole, I bet 90% of both Palestinians and Israeli Jews would be fine living side by side in the same unified, representative democracy where they all have equal rights and there's no need to worry about security checkpoints, security walls and all that other wonderful stuff. They do it throughout the world in other democracies. It's the 1% or 5% or 10% that are hardcore ideologues on either side that wreck it for everyone else and prevent any meaningful solution to the problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    I will correct you. You're wrong.
    Their website

    http://edmonton.apartheidweek.org/

    shows the map if Israel labeled as "Palestinian" with the "Palestinian" colours and 2 arabs.. if that is not advocating hate I do not know what is... Until Arabs come to terms with the fact that they need to stop hating Israel and realise the world will come to ashes before Israel dissapears, until then, there will not be peace in the region and Arabs will have a hard time getting support from those not aligned with terrorists or the extreme left.
    Can you point me to it specifically? Nearest I could find was this: http://apartheidweek.org/sites/apart...ck%20FINAL.jpg

    And that's just flat out factual. The maps anyway. Again, near as I can tell they don't call for the destruction of Israel and there's nothing outright "hateful" about their agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    Marcel,
    Jason shook his head (correct me Jason if this is not the case) at people who single out one side. This event singles out one side. I point to the fact that both sides need concessions such as Israel pulling out and Palestinians opting for a long lasting peace accord. Any event singling out only one of two sides with made up causes is a hatefest.
    Sorry, I don't buy it.

    Hate is hate. being one-sided in an argument is not hate.

    Where have they advocated anything hateful about Israelis or Jews?
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 02-03-2010 at 06:52 PM.

  45. #45

    Default

    Going through the event, it includes Anna Baltzer, Fulbright scholar and grand daughter of Holocaust survivors and b.h. Yael, an Israeli-Canadian director whose documentary about Palestine will be shown.

    I'm sure they'll be labeled as hate filled too now.

  46. #46
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Albert
    Posts
    1,987

  47. #47
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,277

    Default

    Thanks Ralph... here is a graph from the above site, of FATALITIES (not injured) people in Israel from terrorism.

  48. #48

    Default

    Nice chart. Now why don't you show the one that shows the Palestinian deaths?
    The reason why is that you can't since no one can keep count.
    They did manage to record them after Israel's last attack.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...hepalestinians

    Israel has killed about 4 times as many Palestinians and displaced about 4.5 million people. In fact, out of the 1600 killed last year, more of them were children than the highest point of your chart.

  49. #49
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,277

    Default

    Armin the funny thing I note that you skirt around is the issue of rocket and mortar attacks prior to Israel invading Gaza. If Hamas and others weren't attacking Israel in violation of the treaties then Israel wouldn't have invaded and nobody in Gaza would have died.

    You say you want peace, but you want it unilaterally and on your terms only.

  50. #50
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    Marcel,
    Jason shook his head (correct me Jason if this is not the case) at people who single out one side. This event singles out one side. I point to the fact that both sides need concessions such as Israel pulling out and Palestinians opting for a long lasting peace accord. Any event singling out only one of two sides with made up causes is a hatefest.
    Sorry, I don't buy it.

    Hate is hate. being one-sided in an argument is not hate.

    Where have they advocated anything hateful about Israelis or Jews?
    It is in what is not being said... what exactly is being proposed? equal citizenship and human rights for all? Are you sure Israel already does not have that ideal? No country is perfect and as canadians we know that. But israel in my mind has come a very long way to becoming a tolerant society. that includes having full members of their parliament who oppose the very state they serve...

    equal rights to palestinians living in gaza and the west bank? being part of one country? then why push for the withdrawal? why demand settlers to leave? why not demand equal rights instead? rather than kicking out the settlers, invite them in. make the whole country a welcome place for jewish, muslem, christian and other people. that is never talked about, suggested, or even whispered. why is the onus on the israel to create a tolerant society and not on israel, palestinian authority in the west bank, and hamas in gaza? israel already has two official languages, people of eveery race and religion with full citizenship, etc.. Cross the border to Gaza–are the rights of jewish people respected there? If we talk apartheid, I am not so sure it is israel who is the guilty party, or at least not the only guilty one...

    Hate? it is in the misleading label, in hypocricy, in hiding behind slogans and big, emotionally charged words like "apartheid, human rights, opression, etc.." The constant singling out of only one nation out of a whole line up of gross offenders including some nations who are the first to sling mud at israel.

    No, we may not necessarily see it written. But hate is the underlying message in this sad event. Hate is what blinds one side to only see faults in the other and the inability to have any sort of intraspection and honesty to realize it takes two sides to agree to a peaceful coexistence.

    This event has nothing to do with improving the treatment of the palestinians by israel. if that were the case, there would be offers of reciprocity in well-treating the jewish israelis, in calls to stop indescriminate attacks, and in other good will gestures like releasing the kidnapped soldiers. this event is to score public relation points and to put pressure on israel. it is a struggle against israel rather than a struggle for peace.

  51. #51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish
    Marcel,
    Jason shook his head (correct me Jason if this is not the case) at people who single out one side. This event singles out one side. I point to the fact that both sides need concessions such as Israel pulling out and Palestinians opting for a long lasting peace accord. Any event singling out only one of two sides with made up causes is a hatefest.
    Sorry, I don't buy it.

    Hate is hate. being one-sided in an argument is not hate.

    Where have they advocated anything hateful about Israelis or Jews?
    It is in what is not being said... what exactly is being proposed? equal citizenship and human rights for all? Are you sure Israel already does not have that ideal? No country is perfect and as canadians we know that. But israel in my mind has come a very long way to becoming a tolerant society. that includes having full members of their parliament who oppose the very state they serve...

    equal rights to palestinians living in gaza and the west bank? being part of one country? then why push for the withdrawal? why demand settlers to leave? why not demand equal rights instead? rather than kicking out the settlers, invite them in. make the whole country a welcome place for jewish, muslem, christian and other people. that is never talked about, suggested, or even whispered. why is the onus on the israel to create a tolerant society and not on israel, palestinian authority in the west bank, and hamas in gaza? israel already has two official languages, people of eveery race and religion with full citizenship, etc.. Cross the border to Gaza–are the rights of jewish people respected there? If we talk apartheid, I am not so sure it is israel who is the guilty party, or at least not the only guilty one...

    Hate? it is in the misleading label, in hypocricy, in hiding behind slogans and big, emotionally charged words like "apartheid, human rights, opression, etc.." The constant singling out of only one nation out of a whole line up of gross offenders including some nations who are the first to sling mud at israel.

    No, we may not necessarily see it written. But hate is the underlying message in this sad event. Hate is what blinds one side to only see faults in the other and the inability to have any sort of intraspection and honesty to realize it takes two sides to agree to a peaceful coexistence.

    This event has nothing to do with improving the treatment of the palestinians by israel. if that were the case, there would be offers of reciprocity in well-treating the jewish israelis, in calls to stop indescriminate attacks, and in other good will gestures like releasing the kidnapped soldiers. this event is to score public relation points and to put pressure on israel. it is a struggle against israel rather than a struggle for peace.
    I always hear this argument of how Israel is so democratic and treats everyone equally. Does that give her the right to subjugate and oppress an entire people?

    As for the one state solution, Israel will never ever accept it because it knows that the Arabs (muslims/christians) will be in the majority and she will lose her Jewish nature. No Israeli PM will ever advocate that and it is one of the reasons that Israel refuses the right of return for refugees.

    Labeling this event hate is just a way to distract everyone from the real message. Yes, this event gets the Palestinian point of view across which is often missed in the media. Do we know about the frequent incursions in the refugee camps that Israel makes? The hundreds of Arab houses that get destroyed in Jerusalem because they don't have the 'right permit?'

    The Palestinian uprising began in 1987 but the occupation by Israel had started 20 years ago in 1967 and continues on to this day.

  52. #52

    Default

    If the event is so biased and hate filled, why are two speakers/presenters of Israeli/Jewish origin invited?

  53. #53
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    If the event is so biased and hate filled, why are two speakers/presenters of Israeli/Jewish origin invited?
    everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is entitled to be wrong. it just happens that their opinion coincides with the agenda of the event. I think they are wrong to participate in it. But that is my opinion.

  54. #54

    Default

    Grish, we all got off the main topic here which is pretty normal in anything related to Middle Eastern politics.

    The main issue was the Israel Apartheid Week event and it seems like many posters jumped to conclusions without even looking at the program and based on articles written by the Canadian Jewish Congress (who of course will defend Israel at any cost).

    All I'm saying is for Edmontonions to look at the speakers and the program to make up their own mind about attending.

  55. #55
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    I always hear this argument of how Israel is so democratic and treats everyone equally. Does that give her the right to subjugate and oppress an entire people?
    they don't. as far as I know, all israeli citizens are treated with the same fairness. What is it in the laws of Israel that specifically prohibits a muslem arab from moving around, owning property, having access to education, health, representation in government, etc?

    Haifa is one (of many) great example where Jewish and Arab residents live side by side without an issue.

    The people living in hostile to Israel areas are treated with suspision, subjected to checkstops and other security measures that are warranted based on the history of violence, not the policy of the government. In these same areas, jewish israelis are subject to hostility and murder. This came to be during the state of war and has continued. In these areas, both sides are not able to be free.

    And that is the crux of the problem. At some point the war needs to end. That is when people will stop being affraid that one will stab you or blow you up and the other will search and hassle you. It is that tension along the fighting zone that continues to opress both sides. Until both sides come to a negotiation table and negotiate, rather than posture to their electorate, no event will help the situation. Particularly not one that unfairly singles out one of two sides. IAW is a propaganda excercise at best and a hate fest at worst. It is not something positive as it does not seek a positive resolution for peaceful coexistence. It is only designed to assign blame and act against one of two sides in the conflict.

  56. #56
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Grish, we all got off the main topic here which is pretty normal in anything related to Middle Eastern politics.

    The main issue was the Israel Apartheid Week event and it seems like many posters jumped to conclusions without even looking at the program and based on articles written by the Canadian Jewish Congress (who of course will defend Israel at any cost).

    All I'm saying is for Edmontonions to look at the speakers and the program to make up their own mind about attending.
    It starts with the title of the event. Once you place it in the heading–a false claim about one of the two sides–the whole event becomes the propaganda/ hate filled IAW's we have seen in the past.

    Call it: "Issues of Human Rights in Israel-Palestine Conflict" and there is room for a conversation, the equal presentation of both sides of the conflict, and a discussion towards (for not against) a peaceful resolution.

  57. #57
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post

    Call it: "Issues of Human Rights in Israel-Palestine Conflict" and there is room for a conversation, the equal presentation of both sides of the conflict, and a discussion towards (for not against) a peaceful resolution.
    Agreed entirely.

  58. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Grish, we all got off the main topic here which is pretty normal in anything related to Middle Eastern politics.

    The main issue was the Israel Apartheid Week event and it seems like many posters jumped to conclusions without even looking at the program and based on articles written by the Canadian Jewish Congress (who of course will defend Israel at any cost).

    All I'm saying is for Edmontonions to look at the speakers and the program to make up their own mind about attending.
    It starts with the title of the event. Once you place it in the heading–a false claim about one of the two sides–the whole event becomes the propaganda/ hate filled IAW's we have seen in the past.

    Call it: "Issues of Human Rights in Israel-Palestine Conflict" and there is room for a conversation, the equal presentation of both sides of the conflict, and a discussion towards (for not against) a peaceful resolution.
    Many people believe that ghetto like occupation of the territories surrounded by walls and dotted with illegal, lush, and suburban Israeli settlements is reminiscent of the apartheid era. Hence the title.

    You can disagree and that's your right.

  59. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    I always hear this argument of how Israel is so democratic and treats everyone equally. Does that give her the right to subjugate and oppress an entire people?
    they don't. as far as I know, all israeli citizens are treated with the same fairness. What is it in the laws of Israel that specifically prohibits a muslem arab from moving around, owning property, having access to education, health, representation in government, etc?

    Haifa is one (of many) great example where Jewish and Arab residents live side by side without an issue.

    The people living in hostile to Israel areas are treated with suspision, subjected to checkstops and other security measures that are warranted based on the history of violence, not the policy of the government. In these same areas, jewish israelis are subject to hostility and murder. This came to be during the state of war and has continued. In these areas, both sides are not able to be free.

    And that is the crux of the problem. At some point the war needs to end. That is when people will stop being affraid that one will stab you or blow you up and the other will search and hassle you. It is that tension along the fighting zone that continues to opress both sides. Until both sides come to a negotiation table and negotiate, rather than posture to their electorate, no event will help the situation. Particularly not one that unfairly singles out one of two sides. IAW is a propaganda excercise at best and a hate fest at worst. It is not something positive as it does not seek a positive resolution for peaceful coexistence. It is only designed to assign blame and act against one of two sides in the conflict.
    The issue at discussion is not about Israeli citizens but Palestinians in the occupied territories because they are treated worse than prisoners.

    Tanks, jets, and heavy artilellery is used to keep a cloud of fear and of course any one who gets killed in the Israeli incursions is automatically labeled a militant. For every Israeli, there are 5 Palestinians murdered through 'precision weapons.'

    Read the Amnesty and UN reports and you'll find the daily abuses that Israel inflicts and the thousands of deaths that you won't hear about in the media.

    But I guess Amnesty and UN are biased too right?

  60. #60
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    and many would argue that it is the fault of the leadership of the palestinian populations. for example, when all israeli settlers from Gaza were forced to evacuate, they left in tact large agricultural infrastructures. Instead of Hamas taking ownership of these and providing people with employment and, at the same time, food, they were looted.

    For the most part, Gaza and the west bank have been self-governing for years with only a small percentage of the territory in the west bank in direct contact with the state of israel and affected by the separation barrier, yet there are no improvements on the ground. The living conditions are poor, and unemployment is high.

    There is definitely the armed conflict with israel that shares in blame, but considering the millions of dollars in international aid, a large portion of responsibility for the conditions should be placed on failed leadership in the territories. The leadership that continues to seek military conflict rather than provide for their citizens.

    Two sides to the argument. Both need to be heard in order to work for peace rather than against israel.

  61. #61

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    and many would argue that it is the fault of the leadership of the palestinian populations. for example, when all israeli settlers from Gaza were forced to evacuate, they left in tact large agricultural infrastructures. Instead of Hamas taking ownership of these and providing people with employment and, at the same time, food, they were looted.

    For the most part, Gaza and the west bank have been self-governing for years with only a small percentage of the territory in the west bank in direct contact with the state of israel and affected by the separation barrier, yet there are no improvement on the ground. The living conditions are poor, and unemployment is high.

    There is definitely the armed conflict with israel that shares in blame, but considering the millions of dollars in international aid, a large portion of responsibility for the cnditions should be placed on failed leadership in the territories. The leadership that continues to seek military conflict rather than provide for their citizens.

    Two sides to the argument. Both need to be heard in order to work for peace rather than against israel.
    Israel evacuated but still controlled the air, land, and sea entrances to Gaza. So while it trumpeted to the world about the pull out, it kept the economic blockade to starve and punish the people of Gaza.

    It allowed bare minimum food requirements and nothing else that would help spur development of any kind.

    This is the other side of the story.

  62. #62
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    you missed the part when Gazans were given the means to produce their own. At one point, you grow your own food so you do not starve.

  63. #63

    Default

    So 2 million Gazans are expected to cultivate land and feed themselves because Israel is not willing to lift the blockade as it should?

  64. #64
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    So 2 million Gazans are expected to cultivate land and feed themselves because Israel is not willing to lift the blockade as it should?
    I am not sure if you are reading what I am saying.

    There is a part to blame the military events for the living conditions. The firing of rockets and the constant attempts by israel to stop the smuggling in response is one aspect subject to blame. The other is not taking ownership for your own future such as taking the opportunity to cultivate your own food.

  65. #65

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    So 2 million Gazans are expected to cultivate land and feed themselves because Israel is not willing to lift the blockade as it should?
    I am not sure if you are reading what I am saying.

    There is a part to blame the military events for the living conditions. The firing of rockets and the constant attempts by israel to stop the smuggling in response is one aspect subject to blame. The other is not taking ownership for your own future such as taking the opportunity to cultivate your own food.
    How can any development for the future takes place when Israel refues to lift the econimic blocked of the occupied territories?

    I would say the hundreds of lush illegal settlements (land grab) combined with the humiliating occupation causing THOUSANDS of deaths is the reason for the resistance. Once again, the occuption began in 1967 and the uprising in 1987.

  66. #66
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    and just so there is no misunderstanding on the blockade from air and see etc that faraz claims.

    Here is a news story from the Teheran Times stating that israel is doing as promised in lifting of the blockade. If an Iranian news agency reporting Israel is doing as promised, then it must be so. This is days before rockets started raining on israel yet again leading to yet another armed conflict.

    http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=171519

  67. #67

    Default

    Grish, I don't defend every method that Palestinians use for self defence but it is a response to the occupation and oppression by Israel since 1967.

    Generations have grown up seeing Israeli tanks and soldiers destroying homes, grabbing land, and building settlements while the occupied territories becomes one of the most crowdest regions in the world.

  68. #68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    and just so there is no misunderstanding on the blockade from air and see etc that faraz claims.

    Here is a news story from the Teheran Times stating that israel is doing as promised in lifting of the blockade. If an Iranian news agency reporting Israel is doing as promised, then it must be so. This is days before rockets started raining on israel yet again leading to yet another armed conflict.

    http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=171519
    BBC article:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7818022.stm

    So Tehran Times is reliable when it lines up with your views? Otherwise, it is biased and propaganda?

    Read the BBC article. It is actually pretty neutral and discusses both sides of the issue debunking the myth of lifting the economic blockade.

  69. #69
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    How can any development for the future takes place when Israel refues to lift the econimic blocked of the occupied territories?
    there is still an armed conflict to resolve. there will be blockades as long as one side has evidence or is convinced the other side is smuggling arms. I am surprized people are surprized by it. In the mean time, the Hamas is responsible for their people. They have to find ways to produce food, educate, provide health care, safety and security. The constant blaming of Israel does not obsolve them of their responsibility to their people. Use the donated funds to build up your nation, not to purchase weapons.

  70. #70
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    and just so there is no misunderstanding on the blockade from air and see etc that faraz claims.

    Here is a news story from the Teheran Times stating that israel is doing as promised in lifting of the blockade. If an Iranian news agency reporting Israel is doing as promised, then it must be so. This is days before rockets started raining on israel yet again leading to yet another armed conflict.

    http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=171519
    BBC article:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7818022.stm

    So Tehran Times is reliable when it lines up with your views? Otherwise, it is biased and propaganda?

    Read the BBC article. It is actually pretty neutral and discusses both sides of the issue debunking the myth of lifting the economic blockade.
    I did not claim Teheran Times to be biased or unbiased. I claim that when a news paper from Iran–a sworn enemy of Israel– says that Israel has done something half decent, it must be so.

    The BBC article does not contradict Teheran Times. It admits that both sides broke the truce. Hamas continued to fire rockets, and Israel in response did not fully re-open the borders. What is the issue?
    The six-month ceasefire, brokered by the Egyptians, was often broken in practice. Its terms were never written, but were widely understood to include Hamas ending all rocket fire from Gaza and weapons smuggling from Egypt, while Israel stopped military activity against militants in the strip and carried out a phased lifting of its blockade of Gaza. Negotiations on the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit were also supposed to begin.
    Rocket fire was greatly reduced, though not completely stopped, for the first few months of the truce. The volume of goods allowed into Gaza also increased for some of the time, but remained well below pre-embargo levels.
    Last edited by grish; 03-03-2010 at 11:51 AM.

  71. #71

    Default

    Don't just quote parts that suit you:

    "Hamas said Israel had broken the truce by failing to lift the blockade; Israel said Hamas had used the period to smuggle more rockets into Gaza, was planting explosive devices on the border fence and had not stopped the rocket fire completely.

    Hamas demanded that the blockade be ended or it would not renew the ceasefire.

    What have been the effects of the Israeli blockade?

    They have been severe. Little but humanitarian basics have been allowed into Gaza since Hamas seized power in 2007. Before the Israeli operation began, health, water, sewage and power infrastructure were seriously ailing because of a lack of spare parts. The blockade includes limits on fuel, which have on several occasions forced the power plant that supplies Gaza City to shut down.

    A total ban on exports has left the already fragile economy devastated. Unemployment has soared. The United Nations Relief and Works agency (Unrwa) provides basic food aid to about 750,000 people in Gaza, but in the weeks preceding the Israeli operation these were suspended because the UN ran out of food because Israel closed the crossings into Gaza citing security reasons.
    Goods ranging from food to missiles have, however, been brought in through smuggling tunnels from Egypt."
    Last edited by faraz; 03-03-2010 at 12:01 PM.

  72. #72

    Default

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051211.html

    Guardian and UN officials clearly blame Israel for violating the truce. The reason?

    Well it is not the missiles as so widely claimed but an 'imminent' threat to kidnap soliders according to Israel. Imminent or fabricated, either way, Israel broke the truce.

  73. #73
    Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    EDMONTON, AB
    Posts
    557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Armin the funny thing I note that you skirt around is the issue of rocket and mortar attacks prior to Israel invading Gaza. If Hamas and others weren't attacking Israel in violation of the treaties then Israel wouldn't have invaded and nobody in Gaza would have died.
    Sundance the funny thing I note that you skirt around is the issue of Israel expanding greatly beyond what was mandated to them under the UN Partition Plan (1947) into what was designated Arab territory. If Israel had respected the terms of the agreement and not forced countless Palestinians out of their homes and into refugee camps, Hamas wouldn't have fired rockets and nobody in Israel would have died.

    Note: I am in no way advocating rocket attacks... treaties are treaties, but this debate is not one sided.
    Mike

  74. #74
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,277

    Default

    Ah yes how far back shall we go back, getting back to the UN Partition plan what happened afterwards? Seems if my memory is right in January 1948 Egypt's Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni invaded Israel, as well as Fawzi al-Qawuqji from Syria invaded Israel as well with around 3,500 to 6,000 fighters. Jerusalem was blockaded. Of course the partition plan should be applied to Jews not Arabs?

    Ask yourself a question why are there refugee camps in Arab countries? Why are they not welcomed into their countries societies? Many Arabian people are citizens of the state of Israel, however Palestian refugees are barred from Lebanese citizenship.

  75. #75
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051211.html

    Guardian and UN officials clearly blame Israel for violating the truce. The reason?

    Well it is not the missiles as so widely claimed but an 'imminent' threat to kidnap soliders according to Israel. Imminent or fabricated, either way, Israel broke the truce.
    the rockets never stopped. there was never "cease fire". but that is a never-ending, circular debate. the point is that a one-sided event with a title attacking Israel is not conducive to working towards peace as it takes two hands to "shake".

    IAW is a publicity stunt, a propaganda event, and a hate fest that has got nothing to do with the promotion of peace in the region.

  76. #76
    Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    EDMONTON, AB
    Posts
    557

    Default

    Hypothetical situation:

    The Amish(or any other religious/ cultural group) are discriminated against around the world, and as a result, desire a new homeland. Now, the United States and England desire to help them create this homeland, and state that the Amish should receive all the land north of highway 16 (including half of Edmonton) in Alberta. The government of Alberta has no say in the matter.
    The plan proceeds, and Amish immigration begins to that territory, gradually displacing Albertans. Eventually, Alberta's fellow provinces decide to help out Albertans by invading, in an attempt to stop this. They are dealt a crushing defeat by the new powerful Amish army, and the Amish expand to take over most of the province in the course of the war, with the majority of the Albertan population being displaced into Saskatchewan.

    In time, Albertans are allowed self rule, but only to the area inside the boundaries of Banff and Jasper national parks. Some are even granted citizenship of the new Amishonia, but face discrimination, and their elected reps are seldom allowed to take part in government coalitions.

    Ask yourself the question: You are forced out of your home outside of Edmonton, where your family has lived for generations. Would you even want to consider becoming a "citizen" of Saskatchewan, and establish a new life there after that?

    I'll admit that this situation is a bit simplistic compared to reality but many argue that if displaced Palestinians accept citizenship in other countries, it would mean them accepting the situation, and giving up any say.
    Last edited by ike9126; 03-03-2010 at 01:30 PM.
    Mike

  77. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051211.html

    Guardian and UN officials clearly blame Israel for violating the truce. The reason?

    Well it is not the missiles as so widely claimed but an 'imminent' threat to kidnap soliders according to Israel. Imminent or fabricated, either way, Israel broke the truce.
    the rockets never stopped. there was never "cease fire". but that is a never-ending, circular debate. the point is that a one-sided event with a title attacking Israel is not conducive to working towards peace as it takes two hands to "shake".

    IAW is a publicity stunt, a propaganda event, and a hate fest that has got nothing to do with the promotion of peace in the region.
    With two Jewish/Israeli presenters at the event, I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense.

  78. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    Hypothetical situation:

    The Amish(or any other religious/ cultural group) are discriminated against around the world, and as a result, desire a new homeland. Now, the United States and England desire to help them create this homeland, and state that the Amish should receive all the land north of highway 16 (including half of Edmonton) in Alberta. The government of Alberta has no say in the matter.
    The plan proceeds, and Amish immigration begins to that territory, gradually displacing Albertans. Eventually, Alberta's fellow provinces decide to help out Albertans by invading, in an attempt to stop this. They are dealt a crushing defeat by the new powerful Amish army, and the Amish expand to take over most of the province in the course of the war, with the majority of the Albertan population being displaced into Saskatchewan.

    In time, Albertans are allowed self rule, but only to the area inside the boundaries of Banff and Jasper national parks. Some are even granted citizenship of the new Amishonia, but face discrimination, and their elected reps are seldom allowed to take part in government coalitions.

    Ask yourself the question: You are forced out of your home outside of Edmonton, where your family has lived for generations. Would you even want to consider becoming a "citizen" of Saskatchewan, and establish a new life there after that?

    I'll admit that this situation is a bit simplistic compared to reality but many argue that if displaced Palestinians accept citizenship in other countries, it would mean them accepting the situation, and giving up any say.
    Just to counter the first argument that will come up: lets say that the ancestors of these Amish people lived in Northern Alberta thousands of years ago and were promised the land by God.

  79. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Armin the funny thing I note that you skirt around is the issue of rocket and mortar attacks prior to Israel invading Gaza. If Hamas and others weren't attacking Israel in violation of the treaties then Israel wouldn't have invaded and nobody in Gaza would have died.

    You say you want peace, but you want it unilaterally and on your terms only.
    Since when did I skirt a thing?
    I wasn't the one shouting 'thousands of rockets daily' but then only a smattering of injuries or fatalities. And while it's tragic that anyone dies or gets hurt, I do know that as soon as a siren warns, Israelis head down to their bomb shelters.

    Gaza residents have no bomb shelters and Israel destroyed crucial infrastructure that will cost billions to repair.

    You want a balanced debate but nothing Israel does or says comes close to fair. Banned weapons like DU, WP, cluster bombs are all being used so when you say I'm skirting around the rockets, I say you're skirting around Israeli war crimes.

  80. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post

    Many TERRORIST SUPPORTERS believe that ghetto like occupation of the territories surrounded by walls and dotted with illegal, lush, and suburban Israeli settlements is reminiscent of the apartheid era. Hence the title.

    You can disagree and that's your right.
    Fixed it for ya...

  81. #81
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    Hypothetical situation:

    The Amish(or any other religious/ cultural group) are discriminated against around the world, and as a result, desire a new homeland. Now, the United States and England desire to help them create this homeland, and state that the Amish should receive all the land north of highway 16 (including half of Edmonton) in Alberta. The government of Alberta has no say in the matter.
    The plan proceeds, and Amish immigration begins to that territory, gradually displacing Albertans. Eventually, Alberta's fellow provinces decide to help out Albertans by invading, in an attempt to stop this. They are dealt a crushing defeat by the new powerful Amish army, and the Amish expand to take over most of the province in the course of the war, with the majority of the Albertan population being displaced into Saskatchewan.

    In time, Albertans are allowed self rule, but only to the area inside the boundaries of Banff and Jasper national parks. Some are even granted citizenship of the new Amishonia, but face discrimination, and their elected reps are seldom allowed to take part in government coalitions.

    Ask yourself the question: You are forced out of your home outside of Edmonton, where your family has lived for generations. Would you even want to consider becoming a "citizen" of Saskatchewan, and establish a new life there after that?

    I'll admit that this situation is a bit simplistic compared to reality but many argue that if displaced Palestinians accept citizenship in other countries, it would mean them accepting the situation, and giving up any say.
    not only is it "a bit simplistic', it might be more appropriate if you presented it as a first nations scenario and not an amish one... although i have to wonder "which side" of your simplistic scenario you would then choose to support.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  82. #82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Just to counter the first argument that will come up: lets say that the ancestors of these Amish people lived in Northern Alberta thousands of years ago and were promised the land by God.
    Being promised something by god justifies anything, including killing women and children in his name, while he claps and cheers like the christian god did (e.g. the story of Jericho). Which is why the world would be better off without hateful Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other gods, for they are the justification to do anything. It is no coincidence that many of the worst war spots in the world, are those locations where religions meet to do evil in their god's name.

  83. #83
    Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    EDMONTON, AB
    Posts
    557

    Default

    It is a different situation. The First Nations were here before Europeans, that is not debatable.
    The Palestinians have just as much of a claim to that land as the Jewish community.
    The primary issue in my mind is the unilateral decision of the Israeli government to expand beyond the boundaries of the original partition plan.
    Mike

  84. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post

    Many TERRORIST SUPPORTERS believe that ghetto like occupation of the territories surrounded by walls and dotted with illegal, lush, and suburban Israeli settlements is reminiscent of the apartheid era. Hence the title.

    You can disagree and that's your right.
    Fixed it for ya...
    CigarHippo, you are free to state your opinion under your name but please don't change my comment under my name.

  85. #85
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    It is a different situation. The First Nations were here before Europeans, that is not debatable.
    The Palestinians have just as much of a claim to that land as the Jewish community.
    The primary issue in my mind is the unilateral decision of the Israeli government to expand beyond the boundaries of the original partition plan.
    Do the 1948 or the six day war or the yom kippur war not factor in here at all? It wasn't Israel that did not hold to the original partition. Israel is not blameless, but let's keep our facts straight.

  86. #86
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    It is a different situation. The First Nations were here before Europeans, that is not debatable.
    The Palestinians have just as much of a claim to that land as the Jewish community.
    The primary issue in my mind is the unilateral decision of the Israeli government to expand beyond the boundaries of the original partition plan.
    Do the 1948 or the six day war or the yom kippur war not factor in here at all? It wasn't Israel that did not hold to the original partition. Israel is not blameless, but let's keep our facts straight.
    and it wasn't israel who forced anyone to leave. and it isn't israel who to this day refuses to grant citizenship to those who chose to believe in the false promises made to them by others...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  87. #87
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faraz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    Hypothetical situation:

    The Amish(or any other religious/ cultural group) are discriminated against around the world, and as a result, desire a new homeland. Now, the United States and England desire to help them create this homeland, and state that the Amish should receive all the land north of highway 16 (including half of Edmonton) in Alberta. The government of Alberta has no say in the matter.
    The plan proceeds, and Amish immigration begins to that territory, gradually displacing Albertans. Eventually, Alberta's fellow provinces decide to help out Albertans by invading, in an attempt to stop this. They are dealt a crushing defeat by the new powerful Amish army, and the Amish expand to take over most of the province in the course of the war, with the majority of the Albertan population being displaced into Saskatchewan.

    In time, Albertans are allowed self rule, but only to the area inside the boundaries of Banff and Jasper national parks. Some are even granted citizenship of the new Amishonia, but face discrimination, and their elected reps are seldom allowed to take part in government coalitions.

    Ask yourself the question: You are forced out of your home outside of Edmonton, where your family has lived for generations. Would you even want to consider becoming a "citizen" of Saskatchewan, and establish a new life there after that?

    I'll admit that this situation is a bit simplistic compared to reality but many argue that if displaced Palestinians accept citizenship in other countries, it would mean them accepting the situation, and giving up any say.
    Just to counter the first argument that will come up: lets say that the ancestors of these Amish people lived in Northern Alberta thousands of years ago and were promised the land by God.
    actually, lets not go to thousands of years ago and hypothetical promises by god... according to the ottoman empire records, there has always been Amish population on the territory you describe and some of the Albertans moved to the location as recently as some of the Amish. Alberta as an independent country did not exist until the US and the British helped to create the Amish state. Until then, there were various "mandates" and before that, the Ottoman Empire ruled over Alberta, the Albertans and the Amish living there.

  88. #88
    grish
    Guest

    Default

    and all this back and forth with facts, history etc underscores the need for a balanced presentation of facts, an open discussion and a mutual negotiation. An event such as IAW does absolutely nothing towards the promotion of peace. It is a propaganda event and a hate fest.

    The fact that there are two token jewish people participating only underscores that people are free to have opinions, not that their opinions are correct.

  89. #89
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Nice chart. Now why don't you show the one that shows the Palestinian deaths?
    The reason why is that you can't since no one can keep count.
    They did manage to record them after Israel's last attack.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...hepalestinians

    Israel has killed about 4 times as many Palestinians and displaced about 4.5 million people. In fact, out of the 1600 killed last year, more of them were children than the highest point of your chart.
    i wouldn't put an awful lot faith in the guardian's numbers. it's no secret that reported numbers of deaths are regularly inflated for the media:

    "The IDF released its official numbers of the Palestinian fatalities in Gaza and updated them on 26 March: "According to the data gathered by the Research Department of the Israel Defense Intelligence, there were 1166 names of Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead. 709 of them are identified as Hamas terror operatives, amongst them several from various other terror organizations. Furthermore, it has been found that 295 uninvolved Palestinians were killed during the operation, 89 of them under the age of 16, and 49 of them women. In addition, there are 162 names of men that have not yet been attributed to any organization."

    "A few out of these women and teenage victims were actually also proven as combatants or failed suicide bombers, but their number were left among the civilians. The further 162 identified fatalities were unclassified males, the majority of whom believed to be military men. Assuming their composition of military vs. civilians being similar to the other males;

    "one can conclude with high probability that more than 71 % of the Palestinian fatalities in Gaza were parts of the Hamas/Palestinian terror/military and less than 29% could have been civilian victims. Though every civilian death is tragic, this is a very low civilian casualty rate in any international comparison - particularly if one considers Hamas' consistent use of its population as human shields.

    "These figures are very different from those provided by diverse Palestinian sources and Palestinian-leaning NGO-s, who talked of about two-third of the casualties being civilians. Ample evidence supports the IDF figures and practically none the Palestinian hearsay.

    "To those however, who have doubts as to which side they can believe, let's remind the figures of the famous "Jenin massacre" rumors in April 2002. Saeb Erekat - the Palestinian Authority's Minister of Truth then - talked of 3000 and days later of 500 Palestinian civilian victims in Jenin. Israel - the IDF - reported within two weeks a total 52 Palestinian dead, mostly combatants. It took the UN investigating team until August to publish its report declaring that "no massacre whatsoever was committed by Israel in Jenin", and reporting about 53 Palestinian dead - mostly combatants - thus justifying the IDF figures to the letter."

    and it's also no secret that hamas and other palestinian "militia" groups consistently dress as civilians and use civilian populations - particularly those in hospitals and religious buildings and schools - as human shields.

    any fatality - civilian or not - is tragic but trying to find a workable solution that will be not only verbally acceptable to both sides but implemented by both sides (because acceptance without implementation is worthless for both sides) will not come about by using arithmetic as a shield as well.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  90. #90

    Default

    kcantor let me point out the flaw in your last post.

    You belittle the Guardian for a report that is created by the same guys who did the killing, it's like allowing Charles Manson to be his own prosecution.

    There's videos of IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians as human shields so you might want to watch your claims. Israel's soldiers weren't exacly saints either.

    http://www.the-two-malcontents.com/2...hooting-arabs/

  91. #91
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    kcantor let me point out the flaw in your last post.

    You belittle the Guardian for a report that is created by the same guys who did the killing, it's like allowing Charles Manson to be his own prosecution.

    There's videos of IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians as human shields so you might want to watch your claims. Israel's soldiers weren't exacly saints either.

    http://www.the-two-malcontents.com/2...hooting-arabs/
    by belittling, do you mean rebutting an newspaper article with a report that was verified as accurate by a united nations investigating team?

    i didn't represent any group on either side as being comprised solely of "saints" (an interesting word choice in this discussion ). on the other hand, i would certainly differentiate between the actions of specific individuals on either side and the actual official policies and tactics and procedures developed and implemented and condoned by either side.

    what i did say was that any fatality - civilian or not - is tragic. i also said both sides have to work together instead of throwing stones at each other either literally or figuratively using your "your side is worse than our side so that justifies our actions" as a rationale. that's the rationale behind why things are not much different for the current war in gaza than they were for:

    · 1948 Arab-Israeli War
    · 1956 Suez War
    · 1967 Six Day War
    · 1970 War of Attrition
    · 1973 Yom Kippur War
    · 1978 South Lebanon conflict
    · 1982 Lebanon War
    · 1987-1993 First Intifada
    · 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict
    · 2000-2007 al-Aqsa Intifada
    · 2006 Lebanon War

    and lest anyone think this is entirely an israeli phenomonen, they may want to look a little further at the relationships between jordan and syria, black september in jordan, the north yemen and lebanese civil wars, the conflicts between libya and egypt (who has "made peace" with israel and been more than somewhat ostracized for it), the wars between iraq and kuwait...

    they might also want to look a little further at the deaths of more than 400 palestinians in the ain al hilweh refugee camp or those in nahr al-bared to try and identify the real common denominator.

    and while you might want to question the full equality of an arab israeli's citizenship, that citizenship certainly offers more than virtually all palestinians are granted in virtually all of her neighboring states.

    (links from wiki - certainly not the only source but reasonably quick and reasonably accurate as well)
    Last edited by kcantor; 03-03-2010 at 08:07 PM. Reason: added links reference
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  92. #92
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Ken, as usual, spot on.

  93. #93
    In Guantanamo (Banned)
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Oliver
    Posts
    1,769

    Default

    If there's one thing there's just not enough of in this world, it's internet forum discussions about the Arab/Israeli conflict. Good to see folks here addressing this issue!

  94. #94
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by andy8244 View Post
    If there's one thing there's just not enough of in this world, it's internet forum discussions about the Arab/Israeli conflict. Good to see folks here addressing this issue!
    good to see you managing to find something positive to post.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  95. #95
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Albert
    Posts
    1,987

    Default

    Regarding the chart that Sundance copied from my links a point should be made. If a person was to put the yearly Jewish deaths from the Holocaust onto a chart of this scale the lines for 1942-1945 would be over 1000 feet high.
    Israel was created to provide a homeland for the survivors of history's worst crime. Although the Palestinians have absolutely no blame in the holocaust, with an event like this well within living memory how can anybody expect the Israelis to be understanding about just a few rockets?
    The people of Gaza allowed 2000 rockets to be launched from their territory against Israel. This means Gaza is either a failed state or a hostile state. I think the Israelis were totally justified in their actions to stop the rockets. The Gazan's obviously couldn't or wouldn't.

  96. #96
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Albert
    Posts
    1,987

    Default

    In a sad coincidence the first day of Israeli Anti-Apartheid Week was marked with a hatchet attack against a prominent Jewish shopkeeper in Edmonton.

  97. #97
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Albert
    Posts
    1,987

    Default

    Here is a link to an essay that says virtually everything that needs to be said on this issue. IMHO
    http://www.mindingthecampus.com/orig...itz_every.html

  98. #98
    C2E Super Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    NAITSA Advocacy
    Posts
    1,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Here is a link to an essay that says virtually everything that needs to be said on this issue. IMHO
    http://www.mindingthecampus.com/orig...itz_every.html
    Good article.

  99. #99
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    In a sad coincidence the first day of Israeli Anti-Apartheid Week was marked with a hatchet attack against a prominent Jewish shopkeeper in Edmonton.
    Link? Was it racially motivated?

  100. #100
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    10,868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    In a sad coincidence the first day of Israeli Anti-Apartheid Week was marked with a hatchet attack against a prominent Jewish shopkeeper in Edmonton.
    Link? Was it racially motivated?
    i doubt - hope? - there was no racial (?) or religious motivation to that attack. although your asking the question then begs the question of whether you think there is a racial or religious motivation behind the current situation in the middle east. and if so to which side would you attribute the motivation? because if it is racial or religious, then neither military or economic solutions will be effective without first addressing and overcoming that.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •