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Thread: Second Annual Israel Apartheid Week

  1. #101
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    I wasn't implying anything about the situation in the middle east, I was genuinely curious if it was just sad coincidence or not.

    And of course race and religion play a huge part in the conflict in the middle east. I haven't been keeping score on which side is more of a bigot unfortunately.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    and while you might want to question the full equality of an arab israeli's citizenship, that citizenship certainly offers more than virtually all palestinians are granted in virtually all of her neighboring states.
    Actually, it offers more than to ANY arab citizen in ANY country in the middle east... I would love to know what arab country in the middle east allows the level of freedoms and rights that Israeli arab citizens in Israel enjoy... If you ask ANY Israeli arab whether they'd like to live in any arab country or in Israel i am willing to bet that more than 90% would rather stay in Israel (and that includes the non-existent but potentially achievable state of "palestine")

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Link? Was it racially motivated?

    ' Course !

    Everybody knows that Al Queda's newest sleeper cells are the desparate crackheads of Emonchuk's inner city.

  4. #104

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    Ralph, where does it claim anywhere that assault was racially motivated, or are you just assuming because he's jewish, that it was an act of anti-semetism?

    kcantor, all of those links you posted are 1 sided. i've at least been trying to keep unbiased about this but it's obvious that none of you have any interest in doing so.

    Hamas may be listed as a terror group, but I think that should be extended to include Israel as well who continues to break more laws than any other country in the world.

    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.

  5. #105
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    Armin, What part of "In a sad coincidence" was so hard to understand?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Ralph, where does it claim anywhere that assault was racially motivated, or are you just assuming because he's jewish, that it was an act of anti-semetism?

    kcantor, all of those links you posted are 1 sided. i've at least been trying to keep unbiased about this but it's obvious that none of you have any interest in doing so.

    Hamas may be listed as a terror group, but I think that should be extended to include Israel as well who continues to break more laws than any other country in the world.

    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    all of those links??? there were only two source targets. the first was a link to a report verfied by the united nations. the others were all taken from a single wiki page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Middle_East

    and while wiki - as noted in the original post - isn't the be all/end all source reference, i would certainly put them right up there with the self admitedly biased guardian...
    Last edited by kcantor; 04-03-2010 at 06:27 PM. Reason: typo
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  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Armin, What part of "In a sad coincidence" was so hard to understand?
    I don't know what that means.
    What I do know is that you claimed that shopkeeper was attacked because he was jewish. I asked you to cite your information and you came back with an obscure deflection.
    Not cool.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Ralph, where does it claim anywhere that assault was racially motivated, or are you just assuming because he's jewish, that it was an act of anti-semetism?

    kcantor, all of those links you posted are 1 sided. i've at least been trying to keep unbiased about this but it's obvious that none of you have any interest in doing so.

    Hamas may be listed as a terror group, but I think that should be extended to include Israel as well who continues to break more laws than any other country in the world.

    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    all of those links??? there were only two source targets. the first was a link to a report verfied by the united nations. the others were all taken from a single wiki page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Middle_East

    and while wiki - as noted in the original post - isn't the be all/end source reference, i would certainly put them right up there with the self admitedly biased guardian...
    Wikipedia shut down the jewish group CAMERA from writing articles specifically because they were altering them to a pro jewish slant.

    The biggest issue is who decides what is the truth?
    I can counter every link you choose to pass with an alternate recounting of events. The point is to figure out who is actually telling the truth in a manner that doesn't have us resorting to baseless accusations or hyperbolic disconnects and actually provides a civil debate without the inflamatory jingoism.

    This back and forth thing solves nothing until each other side concedes and admits to making mistakes.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    This back and forth thing solves nothing until each other side concedes and admits to making mistakes.
    and let this be the finale word as you have finally agreed that an event that takes a one-sided approach at the issue is not going to solve anything "until each other side concedes and admits to making mistakes." Any event that promotes the "mistakes" of only one side is at best a simple propaganda and at the worst a hate fest.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    This back and forth thing solves nothing until each other side concedes and admits to making mistakes.
    and let this be the finale word as you have finally agreed that an event that takes a one-sided approach at the issue is not going to solve anything "until each other side concedes and admits to making mistakes." Any event that promotes the "mistakes" of only one side is at best a simple propaganda and at the worst a hate fest.
    I almost want to agree with you. In fact I do take offense to them calling it an apartheid week by just singling out Israel, but I wouldn't even think of stopping them. Call it payback for the George Galloway thing when he was banned from Canada as a terror supporter by Jason Kenney (the homophobe who just removed sections from the immigration guide relating to gay marriage), who was acting under the wishes of the Canadian Jewish Congress and the JDF which is recognized as a terror group in the United States.

    As a supporter of free speech, that event was offensive since Galloway's only crime was giving some money and riding a boat filled with diapers and wet naps. I fail to see how a speech can be taken as a terror threat anyways.

    If Israel wants to throw an apartheid week, they can, I won't try to stop them either.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    You're wrong.you like to reject arguments based on personal opinion and not out of reliable information/facts

    So, let's do this:

    I challenge you to a bet... come up with a poll where it shows that more than more than 10% (ten percent) of Israeli arabs would rather live in another ARAB country than Israel and you've won yourself CDN $1,000 (One thousand Canadian dollars)
    You have until noon MST of March 5th to accept this challenge...don't want to give you time to create something bogus. It has to be an independent, legitimate source, not Israeli or Jewish or Arab or muslim related.. (like the UN, HRW, etc)

    Accept the challenge and all you have to do is prove that more than 10% of Israel arabs would rather live in an arab country...

    On the other hand...if you accept the challenge by noon tomorrow, I would win the bet if i can come up with the same proof i am asking above...That is, an independent, reliable source stating more than 90% (ninety percent) would not leave Israel for another ARAB country...

    This C2E forum will serve as a sort of collective witness for the bet...

    If you think the amount of the bet is too high for you, name another number higher than $100...you know, to make things interesting...

    So, either put your money where your mouth is or stop spreading lies and try to spread your twisted ideology across...

    As i said before, propaganda pays off until confronted with facts..

    You're on?
    Last edited by CigarHippo; 04-03-2010 at 06:57 PM.

  12. #112
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    Armin, the word "coincidence" means two things happening at the same time by pure chance.
    I didn't say anywhere that the man was attacked because he was Jewish, and the opening line of my post made that very clear. I suggest that you take a deep breath and actually read what people are posting and if you don't know the meaning of a word just google it.
    If you want a source for the story, I think you should read a newspaper or go to the Journal or Sun's website, it was cited by both papers quite prominently, or are the local papers too big of an obscure deflection?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Call it payback for the George Galloway thing when he was banned from Canada as a terror supporter by Jason Kenney (the homophobe who just removed sections from the immigration guide relating to gay marriage), who was acting under the wishes of the Canadian Jewish Congress and the JDF which is recognized as a terror group in the United States.

    As a supporter of free speech, that event was offensive since Galloway's only crime was giving some money and riding a boat filled with diapers and wet naps. I fail to see how a speech can be taken as a terror threat anyways.

    If Israel wants to throw an apartheid week, they can, I won't try to stop them either.
    huh?



    what does this have to do with anything? i guess the discussion has reached its logical end (or the end of any logic).

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Call it payback for the George Galloway thing when he was banned from Canada as a terror supporter by Jason Kenney (the homophobe who just removed sections from the immigration guide relating to gay marriage), who was acting under the wishes of the Canadian Jewish Congress and the JDF which is recognized as a terror group in the United States.

    As a supporter of free speech, that event was offensive since Galloway's only crime was giving some money and riding a boat filled with diapers and wet naps. I fail to see how a speech can be taken as a terror threat anyways.

    If Israel wants to throw an apartheid week, they can, I won't try to stop them either.
    huh?



    what does this have to do with anything? i guess the discussion has reached its logical end (or the end of any logic).
    Agreed - although I'm not sure that a thread about Israel Apartheid Week started by someone opting to use Slaughtermaster as an alias wasn't always slated to be ironical rather than logical in it's conclusion anyway.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    You're wrong.you like to reject arguments based on personal opinion and not out of reliable information/facts

    So, let's do this:

    I challenge you to a bet... come up with a poll where it shows that more than more than 10% (ten percent) of Israeli arabs would rather live in another ARAB country than Israel and you've won yourself CDN $1,000 (One thousand Canadian dollars)
    You have until noon MST of March 5th to accept this challenge...don't want to give you time to create something bogus. It has to be an independent, legitimate source, not Israeli or Jewish or Arab or muslim related.. (like the UN, HRW, etc)

    Accept the challenge and all you have to do is prove that more than 10% of Israel arabs would rather live in an arab country...

    On the other hand...if you accept the challenge by noon tomorrow, I would win the bet if i can come up with the same proof i am asking above...That is, an independent, reliable source stating more than 90% (ninety percent) would not leave Israel for another ARAB country...

    This C2E forum will serve as a sort of collective witness for the bet...

    If you think the amount of the bet is too high for you, name another number higher than $100...you know, to make things interesting...

    So, either put your money where your mouth is or stop spreading lies and try to spread your twisted ideology across...

    As i said before, propaganda pays off until confronted with facts..

    You're on?
    What a ridiculous proposition that has nothing to do with the topic.
    You're deflecting the debate by trying to put me up against an irrelevant statistic. Argue that with Kcantor since you were using his quote.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    You're wrong.you like to reject arguments based on personal opinion and not out of reliable information/facts

    So, let's do this:

    I challenge you to a bet... come up with a poll where it shows that more than more than 10% (ten percent) of Israeli arabs would rather live in another ARAB country than Israel and you've won yourself CDN $1,000 (One thousand Canadian dollars)
    You have until noon MST of March 5th to accept this challenge...don't want to give you time to create something bogus. It has to be an independent, legitimate source, not Israeli or Jewish or Arab or muslim related.. (like the UN, HRW, etc)

    Accept the challenge and all you have to do is prove that more than 10% of Israel arabs would rather live in an arab country...

    On the other hand...if you accept the challenge by noon tomorrow, I would win the bet if i can come up with the same proof i am asking above...That is, an independent, reliable source stating more than 90% (ninety percent) would not leave Israel for another ARAB country...

    This C2E forum will serve as a sort of collective witness for the bet...

    If you think the amount of the bet is too high for you, name another number higher than $100...you know, to make things interesting...

    So, either put your money where your mouth is or stop spreading lies and try to spread your twisted ideology across...

    As i said before, propaganda pays off until confronted with facts..

    You're on?
    What a ridiculous proposition that has nothing to do with the topic.
    You're deflecting the debate by trying to put me up against an irrelevant statistic. Argue that with Kcantor since you were using his quote.
    lmao!!
    Translation: "i'm a tool of arab and Jihad propaganda and stop asking for facts...facts are for informed ppl, we arab supporters rely on propaganda Jihad only"....
    Alahu Fubar!!

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Armin, the word "coincidence" means two things happening at the same time by pure chance.
    I didn't say anywhere that the man was attacked because he was Jewish, and the opening line of my post made that very clear. I suggest that you take a deep breath and actually read what people are posting and if you don't know the meaning of a word just google it.
    If you want a source for the story, I think you should read a newspaper or go to the Journal or Sun's website, it was cited by both papers quite prominently, or are the local papers too big of an obscure deflection?
    I asked you twice now to back up the claim that this man was attacked because he was jewish and now you're backpeddaling. You make the claims, you scite the sources. I've read a few stories on that and have yet to see any claim to support your allegations.

    There is a new article that says this: "The Jewish immigrant originally from South Africa is a member of the Beth Israel Synagogue in west Edmonton."

    That's the only thing I could find noting his background. Why they pointed that out seems a little suspect to me. Could it be that you're the one looking for racial divisions? I'd say that's a little anti-semetic for pointing out this man is jewish.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CigarHippo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Cigarhippo, you're dreaming. I've read many accounts where arabic Israelis are treated like crap.
    You're wrong.you like to reject arguments based on personal opinion and not out of reliable information/facts

    So, let's do this:

    I challenge you to a bet... come up with a poll where it shows that more than more than 10% (ten percent) of Israeli arabs would rather live in another ARAB country than Israel and you've won yourself CDN $1,000 (One thousand Canadian dollars)
    You have until noon MST of March 5th to accept this challenge...don't want to give you time to create something bogus. It has to be an independent, legitimate source, not Israeli or Jewish or Arab or muslim related.. (like the UN, HRW, etc)

    Accept the challenge and all you have to do is prove that more than 10% of Israel arabs would rather live in an arab country...

    On the other hand...if you accept the challenge by noon tomorrow, I would win the bet if i can come up with the same proof i am asking above...That is, an independent, reliable source stating more than 90% (ninety percent) would not leave Israel for another ARAB country...

    This C2E forum will serve as a sort of collective witness for the bet...

    If you think the amount of the bet is too high for you, name another number higher than $100...you know, to make things interesting...

    So, either put your money where your mouth is or stop spreading lies and try to spread your twisted ideology across...

    As i said before, propaganda pays off until confronted with facts..

    You're on?
    What a ridiculous proposition that has nothing to do with the topic.
    You're deflecting the debate by trying to put me up against an irrelevant statistic. Argue that with Kcantor since you were using his quote.
    lmao!!
    Translation: "i'm a tool of arab and Jihad propaganda and stop asking for facts...facts are for informed ppl, we arab supporters rely on propaganda Jihad only"....
    Alahu Fubar!!
    Look, you're asking me to look for something irrelevant that probably doesn't even exist. You throw up a straw man argument and tell me to prove it. When I say it's useless, you resort to namecalling and slanderous interjections without ever backing anything up.

    I never made any such claims and you're purposely avoiding the real debate which is about Israel and Palestine.

  19. #119

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    I'm including 2 links to show 2 different perspectives

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...857671,00.html

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100305/...l_palestinians

    These are 2 different situations and don't overlap. I'm including both just to show that I'm not biased, unlike some of these other posters.

  20. #120

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    "I was similarly struck by what I heard from a business group at the Karni industrial park. This group of predominantly young businessmen and women graphically described the devastation that has been wrought on the private sector in Gaza, an economy that is now only operating at some 10-15 percent of capacity. Over a thousand companies have gone out of business since the Israeli Army’s Operation Cast Lead in early 2009. Unemployment now runs at over 50 percent."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/05/op...sq=gaza&st=cse

    I suppose the New York Times is just a tabloid too.

  21. #121

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    ^God told the chosen people that it is ok to do this. She also told the not-chosen people that it is ok to hold the Israeli soldier in captivity.

  22. #122

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    ^
    I hope Shalit makes it home safe. No one should be used as a political pawn.
    Hamas or should release him but Israel should have taken the offer when it was given to exchange his release.

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Look, you're asking me to look for something irrelevant that probably doesn't even exist. You throw up a straw man argument and tell me to prove it. When I say it's useless, you resort to namecalling and slanderous interjections without ever backing anything up.

    I never made any such claims and you're purposely avoiding the real debate which is about Israel and Palestine.

    It's not irrelevant b/c u said arab israelis are treated like crap and i rebuffed you by saying you are wrong, that more than 90% of arab israelis would rather live in Israel than in any arab country...and the poll exists and i can prove it...agree to the bet and i will post it...

    as i said, you made a bogus claim that arabs are treated like crap and i, as you said, interjected with offering proof as a challenge to you... you rejected, meaning you know you're lying...

    why can't you accept that most arabs (yes, many are treated like crap, but there'll always be ppl treated like crap in any country, usually a small minority in democracies like Israel and Canada) in Israel have it way better than any arab country

    If you don't accept it, if that is blasphemy to an arab, then offer some proof affirming that most israeli arabs would rather live in an arab country. otherwise you're full of it..
    Last edited by CigarHippo; 05-03-2010 at 04:55 PM.

  24. #124

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    ^
    You asked a loaded question. Why would they want to leave their country of birth?
    That would be like the city of Edmonton taking over Enoch reserve and saying they should either accept it or move to some reserve in northern Saskatewan. Not exactly a Mecca location.

    Post your poll, by all means. Israel is a nice country full of pools, big houses, a great history, lots of technology and western conveniences. I'd want to live there if it wasn't full of guns but I was born in a different culture. Who wouldn't want to live like that opposed to the rubble and poverty in Gaza? As far as other countries go, well I do know that there are Iranian, Turkish, and even Iraqi jews who live peacefully without persecution. Iraq is dangerous in general, so no one is truly very safe, but they are there.

    As far as muslims moving to other countries, there's lots of refugee camps that no one ever talks about. There was a Leonardo dicaprio movie I saw lately with a scene at one of these camps. It looks like a set from District 9. Sunny pools of blue water or tainted stillwater. Only a fool would choose the latter.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    As far as other countries go, well I do know that there are Iranian, Turkish, and even Iraqi jews who live peacefully without persecution. Iraq is dangerous in general, so no one is truly very safe, but they are there.
    I would be asking for a source backing such a statement, but it would be difficult to establish the bias for the source as even in most oppressed conditions, people claim to love thei leader and their country.

    One thing you did touch on is the state of jewish people in the entire region. Those communities and the jewish communities in Jerusalem and many other cities in Israel date back thousands of years.

    However, the jewish communities of the entire middle east have been decimated in all countries except for Israel. The majority of Persian Jews (Iranian Jews) living in the middle east live in israel. There was a combination of reasons for that including iranian revolution amongst all others. Still, Israel took on hundreds of thousands of refugees from communities that include Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc.. While some simply fled, others were kicked out. This is true for the Palestinian refugees, many of whom have fled on their own and others were kicked out.

    The difference in the reception of the refugees is that they were settled in Israel with full rights (that of course ties with the chief nature of the state of israel). Palestinian refugees are to this day confined to cramped refugee camps particularly in Lebanon. They have been restricted from becoming full citizens even though many "refugee camps" are real cities now and most of the "refugees" are second or third generation. I believe there are no refugee camps in Jordan as all refugees were kicked out of the country and many were killed by the Jordan army due to the politics there.

    While the status as a refugee in the country is one of those matters that needs to be negotiated by all nations together with Israel and Palestinian leadership, the conditions of those camps, the status of those people in their host countries, and other issues of human rights are in fact a lot more severe than those in Gaza and the West Bank. That includes safety as there are routine military clashes between the Lebanese army, for example, and the militia in the camps with civilians falling to "collateral damage".

  26. #126
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    Wow. Two sides that won't budge and ignore each other's good points and play up their own. Remind anyone of anything?

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    ^
    You asked a loaded question. Why would they want to leave their country of birth?
    ...
    isn't that a loaded question as well?

    the total number of palestinian "refugees" that left the newly formed state of israel in 1948 is estimated to have been somewhere between 700 and 750,000 with a further 300 to 400,000 leaving during the 6 day war in 1967. the number of palestinians "classified" as refugees today whether they live in refugee camps or not has been estimated at anywhere between 4 and 6 million.

    the issue is further complicated in that the un has never actually provided a workable definition of a palestinian refugee although it should be noted that the unrwa does include those displaced in 1948 and their descendants regardless of where they have lived since. palestinians are the only group to have ever been defined as refugees based on descent alone and this definition has exacerbated their circumstances for more than 6 decades...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  28. #128

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    kcantor, you just gave a bunch of statistical numbers then defined part of the semantical technicalities surrounding the conflict. Is there an answer to my somehow loaded question in there?

    Grish, there's plenty of sources available to tell you whether or not there is jewish communities in those locations. It's fairly common knowledge and you can go pull up any source you deem credible. I'd do it for you but you'll just call all my links biased.

    You ever hear of genome mapping? It's wonderful, they can tell where anyone is from just by using this thing called DNA. With it they figure out which Israelis are actually descendents of the region, and which ones are just using their religion to lay claim to the land. Arabic Israelis share the same DNA with the Arabic Palestinians. The only difference is the religious aspect. European Israelis are european in origin. They're eastern german jewish migrants who use the law of return to take away land from Arabs.

    JasonR, this stupid argument could go on for days and I am being intentionally stubborn until they concede a few facts or at least stop making such ridiculous claims.

  29. #129
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    armin, no offense, but you are just as guilty. You cannot argue the fact that Arabs have it much better in Israel than Jews have it in Arab countries. You place the blame all on Israel, and that's just not fair or accurate.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Grish, there's plenty of sources available to tell you whether or not there is jewish communities in those locations. It's fairly common knowledge and you can go pull up any source you deem credible. I'd do it for you but you'll just call all my links biased.


    what are you replying to? the conditions under which the jewish communities live or whether or not they exist?

    You ever hear of genome mapping? It's wonderful, they can tell where anyone is from just by using this thing called DNA. With it they figure out which Israelis are actually descendents of the region, and which ones are just using their religion to lay claim to the land. Arabic Israelis share the same DNA with the Arabic Palestinians. The only difference is the religious aspect. European Israelis are european in origin. They're eastern german jewish migrants who use the law of return to take away land from Arabs.
    You have no clue what genome mapping is. You are probably thinking of some sort of genetic geneaology thing, not the genome mapping project that simply tries to identify all human gene codes.

    Since you have quite obviously taken gene samples from all jews of the world, you have convinced yourself that there were no jewish people living in Jerusalem, in Tzfat (or Safed), Haifa, Ramle, Cescaria, Hebron, and many, many other cities and villages.

    You have also remembered–a reasonable thing to do using the magic of Gene Geneaology–to take samples of the DNA from every Arab living in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc and have identified all those arabs having different DNA from the DNA of the Palestinian Arabs. Obviously, when in lat 1800's and early 1900's the Zionist movement of the European Jews was taking place, not a single arab moved into what is now the state of Israel. I am sure the economic activity and trade would not have attracted anyone else just like no Arab has made a move to Canada or the US in search of a more prosperous life.

    This "scientification" of land claim has striking similarities to what the Nazis did to convince the enlightened Germans at the time that Arian is the pure race, others like Italians and the Spanish are a bit lower, and Jews and Gypsies are practically not human. But if you are going to go down that path, why not sample everyone and designate the areas in the world where they can establish a country for themselves.

  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    armin, no offense, but you are just as guilty. You cannot argue the fact that Arabs have it much better in Israel than Jews have it in Arab countries. You place the blame all on Israel, and that's just not fair or accurate.
    And you guys keep putting all the blame on the Palistinians. I've already answered that question earlier in this thread. I've even condemned Hamas earlier, but no, I'm just being racist.


  32. #132

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    Grish, where do you get your information from?

    You're talking about Eugenics, which wasn't a Nazi born idea. It was actually incredibly popular in the United States long before Hitler started buying into that junk. Also, Hitler was an *****.

    They can use the genome project to trace dna back to villages that are thousands of years old. Israel funded alot of the recent research trying to find genetic connections to religious writings.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ar...icle.aspx/7686

    I didn't write this stuff, and your accusations are close to Godwin rules. If you want to play the nazi card, you already lose because it's a stupid insinuation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    armin, no offense, but you are just as guilty. You cannot argue the fact that Arabs have it much better in Israel than Jews have it in Arab countries. You place the blame all on Israel, and that's just not fair or accurate.
    And you guys keep putting all the blame on the Palistinians. I've already answered that question earlier in this thread. I've even condemned Hamas earlier, but no, I'm just being racist.

    First of all, I have never called you racist. Second, I haven't ever put all of the blame on the Palestinians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonR View Post
    armin, no offense, but you are just as guilty. You cannot argue the fact that Arabs have it much better in Israel than Jews have it in Arab countries. You place the blame all on Israel, and that's just not fair or accurate.
    And you guys keep putting all the blame on the Palistinians. I've already answered that question earlier in this thread. I've even condemned Hamas earlier, but no, I'm just being racist.

    i don't believe i've ever called you a racist or even inferred it. but you have been guilty of deflecting criticism of some of your statements and positions.

    you asked "why would anyone want to leave their country of birth?"

    i pointed out that most palestinian refugees were not born in israel and acknowledged that as being an issue that has to be dealt with by both sides. you cannot at the same time question why people would want to leave their country of birth while you are supporting exactly that.

    and you came back stating that trying to address real numbers - who are all at the end of the day real people and not just numbers - is no more than "a bunch of statistical numbers" and "part of the semantical technicalities surrounding the conflict". how do expect the two sides to be able to resolve the conflict if even you can't even get past the semantical technicalities when semantical technicalities are one of the major reasons this conflict has gone on for more than six decades.

    and then you started to ramble on to grish about genome mapping and DNA and JasonR about how you are "being intentionally stubborn until they concede a few facts or at least stop making such ridiculous claims".

    as near as i can tell, most of the positions put to you have been more verifiable than many of your statement like that "As far as other countries go, well I do know that there are Iranian, Turkish, and even Iraqi jews who live peacefully without persecution".

    in the last 60 years, the jewish population of arab countries declined from estimates of between 750,000 and 900,000 to less than 9,000 in total. this would include your example of iraq with a decline from 140-150,000 to fewer than 100 today.

    the decline in non-arab muslim countries in total would be similar to or greater than your other two examples of turkey - which went from 140,000 to 17,000 - and iran - which went from estimates as high as 150,000 to 10,800 today.

    hardly true reflections of living peacefully without persecution.
    Last edited by kcantor; 08-03-2010 at 06:09 PM.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  35. #135

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    kcantor, define the Israel Palestine border and we'll probably get to the crux of the problem.

    You're accusing me of deflection, but I can say the same thing.

    The racist comment was to Grish and her stupid accusational tone.

    And all your stats mean very little without citations. I'll get back with a better response when I've got more time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    kcantor, define the Israel Palestine border and we'll probably get to the crux of the problem.

    You're accusing me of deflection, but I can say the same thing.

    The racist comment was to Grish and her stupid accusational tone.

    And all your stats mean very little without citations. I'll get back with a better response when I've got more time.
    as for my defining the border, israel's original borders weren't acceptable to her neighbors - it wasn't israel that went to war to change them. nor has any proposed border since been acceptable to her neighbors whether pre or post any of the wars since. my "definition" isn't likely to be any better received.

    you can certainly say the same thing about deflection if you want. although - much like many of your other assertions - that won't make it true.

    as for a better response with more time, you probably don't have to bother. as long as facts don't mean as much as your own personal opinions, our "stalemate" isn't likely to be resolved regardless of how much time goes in to crafting it. if the source of facts provided (regardless of how easy they are to verify) isn't cited, you discount them completely. although earlier when a source was provided you simply discounted the source just as readily and just as completely. if you have more accurate facts, please table them. until then, i will stay quite comfortable with mine.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    Grish, where do you get your information from?

    You're talking about Eugenics, which wasn't a Nazi born idea. It was actually incredibly popular in the United States long before Hitler started buying into that junk. Also, Hitler was an *****.

    They can use the genome project to trace dna back to villages that are thousands of years old. Israel funded alot of the recent research trying to find genetic connections to religious writings.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ar...icle.aspx/7686

    I didn't write this stuff, and your accusations are close to Godwin rules. If you want to play the nazi card, you already lose because it's a stupid insinuation.
    well, you didn't read it either.

    this article has nothing to do with providing a link between lineage to land claim. nor does it make an unequivocal claim to being trust-worthy.

    trying to "scientisize" something like that to determine belonging is not that far from claims of supremacy. i did not start down that path. I am just giving you a heads up that once you try to test the DNA of one people, every people will be subject to the same DNA analysis. Racism can be dressed up in many different ways. Saying that a whole people does not belong due to the absence of a particular DNA is not that far from the scientification of stature, head shape, etc perfected by Nazi "scientists". You are going to start building historical arguments, you should expect others to bring up history to counter them.
    Last edited by grish; 08-03-2010 at 10:59 PM.

  38. #138

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    kcantor, prior to 1948 there was no Israel. Palestine was under Britain at the time, and they just decided to give away land that never belonged to them. If the situation was different and the US gave away a part of Alberta to any reserve, I'd call you a coward if they were allowed to push us out and you just sat back. That's no different than any Israeli, or Palestinian. Both of them feel deserving of the land. The big problem is for the last 60 years, Israel has been taking all the land without sharing or treating arabs equally.

    Grish, just stop before you embarrass yourself further.
    You accused me of racism. After that, all gloves are off because I've fought racism for at least the last 20 years and for you to make such accusations is insulting.
    When you take a pair of Doc Martins across the head, then you can come back and try accusing me, until then you don't have any right to say spit.

    The link I posted is relevant because you accused me of preaching eugenics. I just showed you a link that confirms studies relating to genetic testing by Israel. Double standard much? Where's their allegations of racism?

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by armin View Post
    kcantor, prior to 1948 there was no Israel. Palestine was under Britain at the time, and they just decided to give away land that never belonged to them. If the situation was different and the US gave away a part of Alberta to any reserve, I'd call you a coward if they were allowed to push us out and you just sat back. That's no different than any Israeli, or Palestinian. Both of them feel deserving of the land. The big problem is for the last 60 years, Israel has been taking all the land without sharing or treating arabs equally.

    Grish, just stop before you embarrass yourself further.
    You accused me of racism. After that, all gloves are off because I've fought racism for at least the last 20 years and for you to make such accusations is insulting.
    When you take a pair of Doc Martins across the head, then you can come back and try accusing me, until then you don't have any right to say spit.

    The link I posted is relevant because you accused me of preaching eugenics. I just showed you a link that confirms studies relating to genetic testing by Israel. Double standard much? Where's their allegations of racism?
    First of all, you need to tone down your threats of physical violence and name calling.

    prior to 1948 there was no palestine either. There was no country for either people. There were jews and arabs and armenians and several other groups living on this land. European jews have orchestrated a large scale move into the land to join the jews already living there. That much is true and is very well documented. There were rich philantropists who have helped purchase land. That was done legally under the Ottoman Empire laws. Jewish settlers who did move back, moved into land they legally owned. Your comparisons to US giving parts of Alberta away are made out of complete ignorance of the history of the region.

    for some reason, you quite freely deny histry of one people over another. more over, you have written down as a fact that genetics has proved jewish people have no right to any claim on the land. as a proof, you offered an article on the religious comparison between judaism and the opinions of a scientist who has worked on the human genome project. The goal of the project was to map the DNA of humans. The opinion of the scientists has to do more with divine creation versus evolution. Yet, to you this article is written about the rights of jewish people to the land claim.

    You don't want to be called racist, but you are perfectly ok with using genetics to differentiate between people and their rights. The last time someone tried to use science to differentiate between people and their rights were the Nazis.

    I will not call you a racist. You pick a word that suits you better. Next time you threaten me to throw a shoe, make sure the shoe is not a boumerang.

    ps I did not accuse you of eugenics. Yet another term you quite obviously do not understand. I did not ever say that you wish some sort of purposeful, selective breeding:
    from the dictionary...
    eugenics is the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics. Developed largely by Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, it fell into disfavor only after the perversion of its doctrines by the Nazis.

    but I did accuse you of trying to pervert human genome project into something that it isn't and to differentiate between different groups of people and their rights.
    Last edited by grish; 09-03-2010 at 08:19 AM.

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    prior to 1948 there was no palestine either.
    or ever. there has never been a "palestine", ever... it has never been a country, it was a territory whose name was given by the romans when they conquered it and it remained like that until the brits took over from the turks... "palestina" is a name of a town in Italy, that's where the name dates back to, to ancient Rome.
    the name "palestine" has zero conection to arabic.. it has no arabic backround. it's a latin name.

    Neither "palestine" or "AlQuds" are named even ONCE on the Holy Quran, not once.
    Israel otoh, is named 52 times in the Quran. The Quran. The one document that arabs most believe in has no connection to "palestine" whatsoever.

    Armin, why isn't "palestine" mentioned once in the Quran? Where is the muslim connection to "palestine"? it seems to me the name "palestine" is just an made up name for a made up ppl, kind of like "Mordor" or "KPax"

  41. #141

    Default Israeli commedian final monologue - apartheid is already here

    Zombie thread but the topic fits. Brave stuff by Israeli commedian to call it like it is, apartheid.



    https://socioecohistory.wordpress.co...the-apartheid/

    I don't believe the answer is two state anymore. I think the only way for peace is for the Palestinans to be granted the same rights as Israelis (including the right to live anywhere and to vote) and the constitution to be rewritten not as a Jewish state but as a Secular state. With mutual rights and respect Arab and Jew can live together in peace in the Middle East, just like in Canada.
    Last edited by moahunter; 04-03-2017 at 02:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Zombie thread but the topic fits. Brave stuff by Israeli commedian to call it like it is, apartheid.



    https://socioecohistory.wordpress.co...the-apartheid/

    I don't believe the answer is two state anymore. I think the only way for peace is for the Palestinans to be granted the same rights as Israelis (including the right to live anywhere and to vote) and the constitution to be rewritten not as a Jewish state but as a Secular state. With mutual rights and respect Arab and Jew can live together in peace in the Middle East, just like in Canada.
    "With mutual rights and respect Arab and Jew can live together in peace in the Middle East, just like in Canada."

    lovely sentiment moa... if only it were either accurate or true. unfortunately it is neither and reflects at best a lack of understanding on many levels.

    firstly, there is no "equivalency" between "arab" and "jew". one describes a member of a semitic people originally from the arabian peninsula. the other describes people whose traditional religion was judaism. your descriptives aren't even exclusive of each other.

    secondly, i'm not sure that canada does treat either of these overlapping groups equally (or, more accurately, canada probably does treat both groups equally but not with equality in much the same way that canada still not treat first nations canadians with equality).

    thirdly, i find it interesting that you now want to insist that israel would be a better place if it became a secular place where religion no longer impacted on life within the state or on the state's behavior towards other states. interesting insofar as there seems to be no similar sentiment calling for the establishment of secular states in jordan or lebanon or syria or saudi arabia or yemen or iran or iraq or turkey or egypt or yemen or libya or qatar or the united arab emirates or kuwait or oman or bahrain or even palestine to rewrite their constitutions and enshrine similar rights and freedoms and security throughout the middle east.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  43. #143

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    ^did you watch the video? I'm guessing you didn't like watching an Israeli pointing out how inhumane it was that within a few kilometers, while he lives a good life, others struggle to get even basic government services / health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    thirdly, i find it interesting that you now want to insist that israel would be a better place if it became a secular place where religion no longer impacted on life within the state or on the state's behavior towards other states. interesting insofar as there seems to be no similar sentiment calling for the establishment of secular states in jordan or lebanon or syria or saudi arabia or yemen or iran or iraq or turkey or egypt or yemen or libya or qatar or the united arab emirates or kuwait or oman or bahrain or even palestine to rewrite their constitutions and enshrine similar rights and freedoms and security throughout the middle east.
    So because Israel is better than the rest of the middle east (for some of its residents, per you), its perfectly acceptable that some of its people live a very good, "white equivalent" apartheid live, whiles others live a "black equivalent" apartheid life with few rights and basic services. I would have though Israel can be better than that, maybe with a Swiss style government of quasi states (which could at a regional level choose a state religion), but I guess its good enough for you the way it is. I don't think its good enough, when you repress people into poverty / enclaves, a people whose population is growing at a faster rate than yours, the end result is not going to be pretty the longer it takes to face up to the inequality.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-03-2017 at 10:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^did you watch the video? I'm guessing you didn't like watching an Israeli pointing out how inhumane it was that within a few kilometers, while he lives a good life, others struggle to get even basic government services / health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    thirdly, i find it interesting that you now want to insist that israel would be a better place if it became a secular place where religion no longer impacted on life within the state or on the state's behavior towards other states. interesting insofar as there seems to be no similar sentiment calling for the establishment of secular states in jordan or lebanon or syria or saudi arabia or yemen or iran or iraq or turkey or egypt or yemen or libya or qatar or the united arab emirates or kuwait or oman or bahrain or even palestine to rewrite their constitutions and enshrine similar rights and freedoms and security throughout the middle east.
    So because Israel is better than the rest of the middle east (for some of its residents, per you), its perfectly acceptable that some of its people live a very good, "white equivalent" apartheid live, whiles others live a "black equivalent" apartheid life with few rights and basic services. I would have though Israel can be better than that, maybe with a Swiss style government of quasi states (which could at a regional level choose a state religion), but I guess its good enough for you the way it is. I don't think its good enough, when you repress people into poverty / enclaves, a people whose population is growing at a faster rate than yours, the end result is not going to be pretty the longer it takes to face up to the inequality.
    yes, i watched it...

    and i thought how different the acceptance of a different point of view in israel than if that video had come from jordan or lebanon or syria or saudi arabia or yemen or iran or iraq or turkey or egypt or yemen or libya or qatar or the united arab emirates or kuwait or oman or bahrain or even Palestine in terms of its remaining available for discussion. or even its author still being available for discussions.

    i also found it interesting to see which thread you chose to resurrect to make your point...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  45. #145

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    The PLO was the secular group fighting for Palestinians. In order to split the Palestinian vote, Israel supported Hamas, a religious group.

    How Israel helped create Hamas
    Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c1c5608ef9c6
    Israel, particularly the current Netanyahu government, isn't interested in a secular state. And there's no way that Israel will aloow the Palestininans in the occupied territories to become citizens. In a generation or two, Jews would be a minority

    You can't even get married in Israel unless you're approved by the approved religious authorities. If you want to marry in a secular, mixed faith, same sex or otherwise unapproved marriage, you have to do it outside of Israel.

    Israel’s religious authorities — the only entities authorized to perform weddings in Israel — are prohibited from marrying couples unless both partners share the same religion. Therefore, interfaith couples can be legally married in Israel only if one of the partners converts to the religion of the other. However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognised by the state
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel
    Immigration to Israel is based on your ethnic and/or religious background. You don't meet those standards, it's almost impossible to move there.

    Immigration to Israel and Israeli Citizenship
    Israel, despite being a liberal democratic country, is not an immigration country. Therefore, Israel does not have laws and regulations enabling foreigners who wish to come and settle Israel the opportunity to do so.
    http://www.visa-law.co.il/immigration-to-israel/
    It's really not that different in result than many of the countries you mention Ken. Only in execution. And isn't Israel supposed to be the example?

    Different laws for arrest and imprisonment based on citizenship, which, as we see above, is heavily titled towards Jewish citizens. A Christin or Muslim or Atheist person, even if they are a citizen, face a much harder time that a Jew would in the same circumstances.

    It's a rarity for a Jewish person to have their home taken from them by the government. Usually only in the cases of illegal settlements and usually not even then. However, Palestinians are often, you could even say routinely, evicted from their homes, often with little to no notice.

    But, according to Ken, that's their fault. If people who these people don't even know or support, who were put in power by the Israeli government, would simply stop doing what they were created to do, everything would be wonderful. Remember, if something bad happens to a Palestinian, it's their own fault, regardless of the circumstances.

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