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Thread: The right plane for Canadian Routes?

  1. #201

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    Human nature tends to offend and downgrade others when they feel threaten or jealous. This reminds me of the popular group wanting to stay on top, and in order to so, they pick on the unpopular because they believe that is what they have to do to stay relevant to the mass; when infact, all they did was deflect all the attention to the unpopular. Good or bad press, the most important factor is to be talked about which, eventually, will be ingrained into the masses head, and that is when potential happens.

  2. #202

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    ^it was a strange public comment given Airbus almost purchased the plane, although he did call it nice. It might also though be a shot at Embraer and the Chinese airline makers, basically saying, you can have your small plane niche, but you move into our / Boeings territory (ie the big boys) and we will eat you alive (and they have, with the Neo and Max, larger planes that are being sold below CS300 prices).

  3. #203

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    As for the Chinese, I'm sure it won't be too long before they start rolling out big planes.

  4. #204

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    ^ They're on it, but not really aiming as technologically advanced in the near term.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  5. #205

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    Give them 10 years...

  6. #206

    Default Stock jumps on Delta rumors

    A Delta contract would be a huge vote of confidence for the CS:

    http://montrealgazette.com/business/...n-cseries-jets

  7. #207
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    Default United, Southwest buy 73 Boeing jets in blow to Bombardier

    United Airlines (UAL.N) said on Thursday it will buy 40 small planes from Boeing Co (BA.N), dealing a $3.2 billion blow to Bombardier Inc's (BBDb.TO) hopes of landing a major customer for its fledgling CSeries program.

    Separately, Southwest Airlines Co (LUV.N) said it had ordered 33 of Boeing's 737-800 aircraft, a deal it struck in December but announced on Thursday.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ua...-idUSKCN0UZ1N5

  8. #208

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    ^ouch, that analyst comment " there is a real risk that the CS could be cancelled if no new sales materialize in the next six months". Bombardiar needs that Delta contract, Embraer and Bombardiar seem to be getting shut out of the big dollars on the airlines buying spree right now. Let's hope the CS doesn't go the way of the Arrow.

  9. #209

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    ^ What a refreshing change that you've switched to plain "concern trolling" rather than your unmasked cowfarty bigotries.

    I guess the pressure from Montreal is getting to your little cowmpanies.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  10. #210
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    Default Bombardier stock falls below $1 as Airbus inks Iran jet deal

    Bombardier shares were reduced to penny-stock status for the first time since 1991 on Wednesday as the plane and train maker continues to have trouble selling its next generation of aircraft.

    Bombardier shares were trading hands at 92 cents on the TSX on Thursday, a day after closing below the $1 level for the first time in 25 years.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...tock-1.3423957

    Missed out on another one to one of the big guys...

  11. #211

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    I've said and I maintain that I don't expect a major sales uptick until after around one year in service. In particular with data on the groundbreaking new engine. Assuming they don't ground-out entirely, I expect the significant portion of the 500 commitments to become firm sales around then, followed by big new orders.

    Lost in the noise is the fact that Mitsubishi is seeing the same sales curve (with the same engine.)

    First delivery only months away.
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  12. #212
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    Default Air Canada says costs may dip, to buy up to 75 Bombardier jets

    Air Canada said on Wednesday it would purchase 45 of the CS300 aircraft, with an option to buy an additional 30 planes. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2019.

    The order would be valued at as much as $3.8-billion based on the list price of the aircraft, Bombardier said.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle28779526/
    Last edited by Glenco; 17-02-2016 at 11:43 AM.
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  13. #213

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    Operationally a zero limit aircraft for AC:


    Also the most comfortable cabin aloft.

    Looking forward to my first ride, assuming AC schedules one to Edmonton...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  14. #214
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    I heard on the news they were to be used for transborder flights so the likely hood of them coming here on a regular bases is slim.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  15. #215

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    Flying to Toronto to fly to Raleigh Durham is asking a lot of a plane geek who already hates AC.

    But I might do it anyways.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  16. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    I heard on the news they were to be used for transborder flights so the likely hood of them coming here on a regular bases is slim.
    Maybe at first, but I think in time they will come to Edmonton, I always seem to get smaller regional jets from Edmonton, so it's logical there will be routes needing about this capacity, slightly more than an existing regional but slightly less than their 737max's.

  17. #217

    Default United chooses Boeing

    More bad news:

    The deal with Boeing, first reported by the Wall Street Journal, comes weeks after United agreed to buy 40 Boeing 737-700 jets listed at US$3.2 billion.

    Bombardier said last week it was in talks with United after winning an order from Air Canada for 45 of its CSeries jets, the first from a top flag carrier since 2011.

    The CSeries, a new carbon-composite aircraft whose two models seat between 100 and 160 passengers, is due to enter service in 2016 after years of delays and budget overruns.

    A spokeswoman for the Montreal-based plane and train-maker declined to comment on the United deal. Another potential competitor for the order, Brazil's Embraer SA , also declined to comment.

    United has long outsourced short-haul flights to regional contractors that operate planes from Embraer and Bombardier. However, those planemakers have yet to unseat Boeing or Airbus Group SE to gain a foothold in United's owned and operated fleet.
    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...e/2538718.html

  18. #218

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    ^ you aren't understanding the proposition still. I wonder why...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  19. #219

    Default c919 to fly by end of year

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Set to fly at the end of 2016, a larger plane than CS300:

    http://www.bidnessetc.com/64170-coma...rbus-cautious/

    Its going to have some certification challenges, but I guess, it could eat heavily into Boeing and Airbus share of the Chinese market:

    The C919 is set to compete against Boeing’s 737 and Airbus 320 single-aisle airplanes and is likely to be as good as current Airbus and Boeing models. Currently Airbus and Boeing have been manufacturing their A320 neo and 737 Max, respectively.

    These airplanes are designed to be further efficient and technologically advanced as well. Airbus has already started to deliver its A320 neo planes despite delays, while Boeing is expected to deliver planes by next year.

    The Chinese airplane manufacturer first unveiled its airplane in November 2015 and has obtained more than 517 orders from 21 customers since then. The aircraft has already received recognition from the Dubai and Singapore airshows, bagging numerous orders.

  20. #220

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    ^ this has been under development for 7 years and you just found out about it.

    You must be one of those "aviation insiders" or something, right?

    Oh, by the way before concern trolling Bombardier with the big Comac "411 scoop", there's something I think you might want to know:

    COMAC and Bombardier Sign Definitive Agreement to Establish Commonality Opportunities Between C919 and CSeries Aircraft

    March 21, 2012 Shanghai
    Aerospace, Press Release


    Low Resolution (90 KB)High Resolution (203 KB)
    Further to the framework agreement signed on March 24, 2011, Jin Zhuanglong, Chairman, Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd (COMAC) and Pierre Beaudoin, President and Chief Executive Officer, Bombardier Inc. signed today a definitive agreement covering program commonalities between the C919 and CSeries aircraft. More specifically, the two leading aircraft manufacturers have agreed to cooperate on four distinctive projects to be executed as part of the first phase of COMAC and Bombardier’s long-term collaboration on the C919 aircraft and the CSeries families of commercial airliners.
    Bombardier


    Bombardier strengthens partnership with China’s COMAC

    Scott Deveau | November 13, 2012 8:56 AM ET
    More from Scott Deveau | @scottdeveau
    The two planemakers have been collaborating on product development and customer operating efficiencies for COMAC’s C919 and Bombardier’s CSeries aircraft families.
    ReutersThe two planemakers have been collaborating on product development and customer operating efficiencies for COMAC’s C919 and Bombardier’s CSeries aircraft families.

    Bombardier, COMAC strengthen CSeries, C919 partnership

    Bombardier Inc. announced Tuesday it planned to deepen its strategic partnership with Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China [COMAC].

    The first phase of the agreement, formalized in March 2012, saw the two manufacturers collaborate product development and customer operating efficiencies for COMAC’s 168-to-190-seat C919 and Bombardier’s 110-to-145-seat CSeries aircraft families.
    Financial Post

    Bombardier ramps up Chinese partnership
    The Canadian Press Posted: Jun 17, 2013 6:39 PM ET Last Updated: Jun 17, 2013 9:19 PM ET

    Bombardier is ramping up its relationship with Chinese aircraft manufacturer Comac amid intensified pressure from a new line of regional planes to be launched by Brazilian rival Embraer.

    The Montreal-based manufacturer said Monday it signed a new agreement with Comac to enhance the commonalities between the CSeries and the C919 widebody aircraft from Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd.
    CBC

    Good one, moa.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  21. #221

    Default One of largest customers files for bankruptcy

    Each time a bit of good news like the Air Canada order, then comes some bad news - 40 orders gone:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...kruptcy-filing

  22. #222

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    I assume moahunter doesn't know the difference between 'doors-closed-lights-out' bankruptcy and 'how-AA-and-United-just-reemerged-tigers' bankruptcy.

    Nor, likely, the difference between a creditor, a shareholder, and (lol) a future supplier.

    Of course creditor protection is not where one wants all one's customers, but even the article linked suggests the reason is 'lack of pilots', not 'fear and loathing future aircraft delivery.'

    So, no, moagoof, doesn't mean '40 orders gone.'
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  23. #223

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    'lack of pilots'
    Yep no one saw that one coming, no warnings...what a surprise. (sarcasm alert)

  24. #224

    Default Predatory pricing? Or new Boeing market?

    It seems Boeing offered the 737-700 (which hasn't sold well, being smaller 737 version), at a crazy low price to United : 20 to 25m (list price is 80m). The CS was offered for 30m:

    http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/02/...-cseries-blow/

    The next generation 737 max 7s, which are more equivalent to the CS efficiency wise, may go for a similar price as CS, around 30m. Thing is, Boeing already has the production experience on these aircraft, and airlines are familiar with it re larger versions / maintenance is well known. It's bad news for Embaer and Bombardiar, if the small Max is sold at low prices it could almost sweep the larger regional jet market (Boeing can also offer it in packages for large airlines with larger planes). On the other hand, maybe the United 700 order will be an aberration, and the Max 7 will remain unpopular. Most of the orders are the 8 and up, nice comparison of Max and Neo here:

    http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/01/...-737-max-pt-i/

    Last edited by moahunter; 28-02-2016 at 09:24 PM.

  25. #225

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    ^ do you even realise you're posting an (accurate) graphic which shows Bombardier is killing both Boeing and Airbus at that size range?

    Let's take a look at that one in slow motion, Dick:

    Boeing 737 MAX 7 -- 60 orders.
    Airbus A319 neo -- 50 orders.
    Bombardier CSeries -- 243 orders, 435 other commitments.


    I really do not see your point.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  26. #226

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    Boeing is still selling the 737-700, at crazy low prices, like the United order, over 1,000 delivered to date, customers haven't transitioned to the Max 7 yet (may or may not, time will tell, many are choosing to move up to larger aircraft which is an industry trend):

    Last edited by moahunter; 29-02-2016 at 09:13 AM.

  27. #227
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    I don't see how Airbus and Beoing can be successful selling planes way below cost in the long run. The delivery will not happen for six or seven years because of the backlog of orders. Does not make sense to bump a paying customer to make way for a give away.
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  28. #228

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    ^an interesting thing from the charts is how the 737-6 was the poor seller in the last generation, and the Max-7 seems to be the poor seller (so far, although still in transition) of the next generation. Either a continued creep upwards in size by airlines, or alternatively, losing the market to Embraer / Bombardier, or airlines just playing a wait and see game on the CS. I'm not sure which. Its seems a bit like Boeing are treating the 737-7 right now as a loss leader to help them secure larger plane orders with airlines, which is unfair to Embraer and Bombardier.

  29. #229

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    ^ You're not really starting to get that the CSeries is already competitive and making a mark on the market, are you?

    678 commitments.

    I remember two pages ago in this thread where you were already campaigning against the hated Frenchy Plane, yet hadn't quite grasped that it was actually much bigger than a CRJ. I really didn't expect to see the day you'd realise it is a legitimate competitor to Boeing and Airbus. Yet here you are, trying to spin how it's cowering at their heels (despite inexplicably outselling them each over 10 to 1 and killing off the A318 and B-6 entirely.)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  30. #230
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    Default Air Baltic expands CSeries order to 20 jets, Bombardier says

    Bombardier says Latvian flag carrier Air Baltic has converted its remaining seven purchase options for CS300 passenger jets to a firm order.

    This brings Air Baltic's total firm order to 20 planes under an agreement initially signed in December 2012.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...ltic-1.3531619
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  31. #231
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    The Montreal Gazette reports today that Delta Air Lines is negotiating to purchase up to 125 CSeries aircraft:

    "According to the Wall Street Journal, Delta Air Lines is on the verge of signing an agreement with Bombardier for up to 125 of the Montreal-based plane maker’s CSeries jets.

    The Wall Street Journal says the information was obtained from three people familiar with the negotiations.

    The deal would represent a significant boost for Bombardier’s struggling CSeries program.

    If completed, the deal would reportedly consist of 75 firm orders and options for 50 more planes."

    http://montrealgazette.com/business/...es-jets-report

  32. #232

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    ^Delta and AA both fly MD80 type aircraft, which are a similar size to the CS, so it seems a nice fit. I hope the order goes through, it would be a much needed vote of confidence.

  33. #233
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    Default Possible Bombardier-Delta deal leads to talks of a bigger C Series

    Bombardier resisted building a larger CS500 version of the plane, believing the 100-to-150-seat segment represented the best niche for a new, more fuel-efficient plane and that Airbus and Boeing would be less likely to take steps to make sure the C Series never got off the ground if their cozy duopoly in the market above 150 seats was not threatened.

    Bombardier miscalculated. In a deal announced earlier this year between Boeing and United Airlines, Boeing offered a 75-per-cent discount from the list price of the 737NG, indicating how anxious the company is to keep Bombardier out.

    Adding four rows of five seats each to the 130-seat CS300 is a short stretch that should be relatively simple and take the plane up to 150 seats, he wrote.

    “The wing is certainly strong enough to support the additional weight, and the development of a third model should require low development costs and minimal testing of an existing model.”

    The Delta MD88s, which the airline is seeking to replace, seat 149 people. Delta owns 83 MD88s and leases another 33. They have an average age of 25.2 years.


    British Airways has also asked about a larger version of the plane, industry analyst and AirInsight partner Ernie Arvai said in a report on Tuesday.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29679594/
    Last edited by Glenco; 21-04-2016 at 08:47 PM.
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  34. #234

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    Giddy.

    Everybody knows that's the seat size that sells. Everybody knows the aircraft will not only save money but be a selling point to passengers. Exciting to see if some airlines make a stand here.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Bombardier resisted building a larger CS500 version of the plane, believing the 100-to-150-seat segment represented the best niche for a new, more fuel-efficient plane and that Airbus and Boeing would be less likely to take steps to make sure the C Series never got off the ground if their cozy duopoly in the market above 150 seats was not threatened.

    Bombardier miscalculated. In a deal announced earlier this year between Boeing and United Airlines, Boeing offered a 75-per-cent discount from the list price of the 737NG, indicating how anxious the company is to keep Bombardier out.

    Adding four rows of five seats each to the 130-seat CS300 is a short stretch that should be relatively simple and take the plane up to 150 seats, he wrote.

    “The wing is certainly strong enough to support the additional weight, and the development of a third model should require low development costs and minimal testing of an existing model.”

    The Delta MD88s, which the airline is seeking to replace, seat 149 people. Delta owns 83 MD88s and leases another 33. They have an average age of 25.2 years.


    British Airways has also asked about a larger version of the plane, industry analyst and AirInsight partner Ernie Arvai said in a report on Tuesday.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29679594/
    In other words predatory pricing?

  36. #236
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    Delta (NYSE: DAL) is expected to announce on April 28 or 29 that it will order 75 Bombardier C Series jets, with options for 50 more, which would in effect breach the duopoly Airbus and Boeing have maintained in the all-important narrow-body sector.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...kely-next.html
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  37. #237

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    ^great news, interesting they chose the smaller plane the CS100. In time they might want some CS300's as well as the MD85's retire:

    Quebec-based Bombardier said the deal included an option for Delta to buy an additional 50 CS100 aircraft. Delta also has the option to convert a number of its orders into the larger CS300 variant of the aircraft at a later date.

    This dramatically boosts the size of Bombardier's order book for the jet program, which is years behind schedule and billions of dollars over budget. The widely anticipated order, the first order from a major U.S. airline for the CSeries and the largest order to date for the new jets, also overshadowed Bombardier's worse-than-expected adjusted first-quarter loss on Thursday.

    For Delta, a leading U.S. airline with a global reach, the deal allows it to phase out 50-seat jets that it contracts regional airlines to fly under its Delta Connection brand. The larger CS100 planes burn less fuel per passenger and have room for two cabin classes rather than one, giving Delta an opportunity to up-sell customers to business class.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-04-2016 at 10:28 AM.

  38. #238

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    No question it's a huge deal for the CSeries. It basically proves the whole concept, as Delta will likely also bring the CS500 to life, completely bridging regional to narrowbody. I would guess they want to skip the CS300 though.

    Just as long as Bombardier don't ground-out financially in this last mile of the marathon.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  39. #239

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    ^CS500 would be perfect replacement for the MD's, if Delta get comfortable that CS100's work well / and are delivered on time, they might be willing to wait for Bombardier to develop the stretch version. I guess the question is if the MD's can keep flying that long, and the extra cost for Bombardier to do a stretch. AA also has 96 MD's still flying, but they have been buying Boeings of late.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-04-2016 at 11:32 AM.

  40. #240
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    And announce they did ... 75 CS100s

    http://news.delta.com/delta-orders-s...rdier-c-series

  41. #241

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    Really good news
    This is the second largest airline in America. Bombardier has finally garnered credibility.

  42. #242
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    With billions in taxpayer subsidies maybe they are selling them at a price that can't be beat

  43. #243

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    I think this is the breakthrough they needed. To land this type of deal at the point deliveries are just about to start, with that type of airline, this is a huge step for the program. The program itself has forced a breach in the Boeing/Airbus wall.

    Important because:
    • Delta obviously got to see as much of the current state of the aircraft as they wanted
    • Delta would have been courted by both Boeing and Airbus
    • At 100 seats, this is a huge blow to Embraer as well
    • They are strategising using these aircraft to replace 50 seaters, thus leveraging scarce pilots and scarce landing slots (proving the concept which will also likely be followed by other US airlines (possibly including aforementioned Republic during their restructuring, although that is not going to be a major purchase in the larger scheme.))
    • Commonality is a real thing, they will want more aircraft of a different size to maximise crew and maintenance flexibility and economics (and that means they will be pestering BBD for a CS500 basically every time they speak until they get it)
    • The pre-2016 orders were a bit speculative and toe-dipping, the Air Canada sale was a grudging legal responsibility, but this is a major competitive order based on real strategic operational needs for an airline which does its homework.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The program itself has forced a breach in the Boeing/Airbus wall.
    I think this will hurt Embraer more so than Boeing/Airbus which you also mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    [*]the Air Canada sale was a grudging legal responsibility
    Did the AC sale then have more to do with getting Trudeau to revise the archaic "Air Canada" rules regarding maintenance, headquarters, etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^CS500 would be perfect replacement for the MD's, if Delta get comfortable that CS100's work well / and are delivered on time, they might be willing to wait for Bombardier to develop the stretch version. I guess the question is if the MD's can keep flying that long, and the extra cost for Bombardier to do a stretch. AA also has 96 MD's still flying, but they have been buying Boeings of late.
    Delta has just ordered 37 A321's to raise their total A321 order to 82. This will replace the 116 MD aircraft.
    http://news.airwise.com/story/delta-...7-airbus-a321s

    Let's make sure the 100/300's do well before even getting into a 500 version.

  46. #246

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    ^there was talk Delta approached Bombardier a year or so ago and asked them to do a CS500. CS500 is a bit of a risk for Bombardier, on the one hand it makes a ton of sense as moves them into the biggest market slot, but on the other hand, it would cost $, and both Airbus and Boeings (e.g. Y1) future generations could leapfrog. Seeking Alpha has a recent story on:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/3968...ered-questions

    While the CS500 sounds good in theory, there are a lot of unanswered and concerning questions that remain. A move into the CS500 market could make the CS100 and CS300 more appealing to airlines, and the CS500 would have far more potential than the smaller two models due to the much larger market. Despite this, issues on financing remain along with the time frame for such a product to be launched. A CS500 may also remove what little focus remains at Bombardier on the regional jets and Q400, leading to reduced sales for products that have had their development costs paid off and are selling profitably albeit slowly. What happens if Bombardier abandons development of these products in favor of developing the CS500, and a competitive response by Boeing renders the CS500 obsolete before it has gained any real momentum? Investors should consider the implications of all of this when any talk arises concerning a CS500 aircraft.


    There have also been some interesting articles over whether the Y1 737 replacement will be two aircraft, one similar size to current 737 and a bigger one like 757 (which is where market seems to be going, around 200 to 250 seats), or if they will just up size the 737 with one model.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-04-2016 at 09:11 AM.

  47. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    With billions in taxpayer subsidies maybe they are selling them at a price that can't be beat

    On the "Exchange" they expounded that might have been the reason they sought the provincial bailout after losing one of the bids to Boeing. As well ,I saw a clip of the interior of that plane, and all I can say is wow! Very private jetish feel and look.

  48. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    With billions in taxpayer subsidies maybe they are selling them at a price that can't be beat
    They're not. You just described Boeing though, and that's what Bombardier have to compete against. Boeing is one of those companies that the USG buys $700 "military" hammers from so they can prop up the civil airliner programs. (Figuratively.) Then they turn around and 'sell' at a 75% discount to try to squelch the CSeries in its most desperate moment.

    Bombardier has paid back all of their government aid until this program, and Quebec's recent aid was a 50% share purchase of the program, not a subsidy. They'll profit whatever BBD profits.

    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The program itself has forced a breach in the Boeing/Airbus wall.
    I think this will hurt Embraer more so than Boeing/Airbus which you also mention.
    Yes, perhaps in terms of proportion of "hurt", but while less of an impact on Boeing or Airbus per se, they went from "wallflower at the dance of the giants" to "the only gunslinger with a laser sight (albeit with less bullets) in a now three-way battle."

    The respectability this deal proves is bigger than this deal, by a long shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    [*]the Air Canada sale was a grudging legal responsibility
    Did the AC sale then have more to do with getting Trudeau to revise the archaic "Air Canada" rules regarding maintenance, headquarters, etc.?
    No, it was actually the provincial government of Quebec, not the federal government.

    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^CS500 would be perfect replacement for the MD's, if Delta get comfortable that CS100's work well / and are delivered on time, they might be willing to wait for Bombardier to develop the stretch version. I guess the question is if the MD's can keep flying that long, and the extra cost for Bombardier to do a stretch. AA also has 96 MD's still flying, but they have been buying Boeings of late.
    Delta has just ordered 37 A321's to raise their total A321 order to 82. This will replace the 116 MD aircraft.
    http://news.airwise.com/story/delta-...7-airbus-a321s

    Let's make sure the 100/300's do well before even getting into a 500 version.
    For sure get a little more solidity, but the incremental investment in adding 5 rows of seats puts them in an exponentially larger arena, and remember, the CSeries actually looks like the better design in that arena.

    BTW any A321 or 737-900 sales are pretty immaterial to the CSeries. The A321 is one size beyond a theoretical C700 even. Those sales are simply unavailable to BBD.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Export financing snafus give Bombardier Inc a leg up on its competitors
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/expor...978/story.htmlr
    TORONTO — A fraud investigation in the U.K. and a Senate impasse in the U.S. have virtually eliminated export financing for two of Bombardier Inc.’s biggest competitors, inadvertently giving the Canadian company a leg up as it vies to win new orders for its CSeries commercial jet.
    For different and unrelated reasons, Boeing Co. and Airbus Group SE have found themselves unable to help their airline customers secure financing from government-backed export credit agencies. These agencies can help airlines — particularly those with weak credit ratings — access financing by offering loans and loan guarantees.
    In Airbus’s case, export credit agencies in the U.K., France and Germany have frozen financing to the aircraft manufacturer’s customers because of an ongoing criminal probe. The U.K.’s Serious Fraud Office is looking into allegations of fraud, bribery and corruption in Airbus’s civil aviation business related to its use of middlemen to sell aircraft and arrange financing.
    Last edited by Glenco; 18-08-2016 at 06:34 PM.
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  50. #250

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    Lol.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  51. #251

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    The reality of economic times? Fantastic to hear ! Now if we can get Porter...

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    Cool review. I want to try one now.
    My antidepressent drug of choice is running. Cheaper with less side effects!

  54. #254

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    This
    Bombardier exploring sale of Q400, CRJ units amid CSeries trouble: report The company is looking into selling its Toronto- and Montreal-based turboprop and regional jet programs as Boeing puts the screws to its new CSeries jets in a subsidy dispute, Bloomberg reports
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Air Canada and West Jet have both decided the Max is the right plane for Canadian routes. WestJet has been showing off their new model:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-max-1.4350759

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Air Canada and West Jet have both decided the Max is the right plane for Canadian routes. WestJet has been showing off their new model:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-max-1.4350759
    WestJet not even giving a Canadian firm a little nod that Bombardier Is a Canadian company and integral to the nations aerospace industry is rather short sighted and a slap in the face to Quebec and Ontario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    This
    Bombardier exploring sale of Q400, CRJ units amid CSeries trouble: report The company is looking into selling its Toronto- and Montreal-based turboprop and regional jet programs as Boeing puts the screws to its new CSeries jets in a subsidy dispute, Bloomberg reports
    Link please

  58. #258
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Air Canada and West Jet have both decided the Max is the right plane for Canadian routes. WestJet has been showing off their new model:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...-max-1.4350759
    WestJet not even giving a Canadian firm a little nod that Bombardier Is a Canadian company and integral to the nations aerospace industry is rather short sighted and a slap in the face to Quebec and Ontario.
    WestJet recently purchased Q400's from Bombardier (it could instead have purchased the top-selling ATR's), so not that big of a slap. I just flew on a westjet Q400 - they are nice props, and over shorter distances (like to Vancouver), virtually as fast as a jet.

  60. #260

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    One way to skirt the Trump tactics of protectionism

    Europe's Airbus to buy majority stake in Bombardier CSeries program

    CSeries headquarters will remain in Montreal area, 2nd assembly line will be set up in Alabama
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...ries-1.4357567
    European aircraft giant Airbus Group is buying a majority stake in Bombardier's CSeries program.


    The two aircraft manufacturers announced the partnership Monday evening, weeks after the United States announced 300 per cent preliminary duties on exports of the aircraft following a complaint from Airbus rival Boeing.


    The CSeries headquarters will remain in the Montreal area but a second assembly line for the 100- to 150-seat plane will be set up at an Airbus facility in Alabama.
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    Thank goodness this great plane will not go to waste.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    It’s interesting, good news I think. I wonder if the tariffs get dropped now, if it’s going to be built in Alabama? No doubt that would make the Delta order.

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    Pleased to read the Airbus acquisition. Airbus and the EU have much bigger teeth to nash Trump and Boeing. I bet the talks and negotiations took many months and US Republican Party spies (also called Russians) got wind, briefed the Whitehouse and Trade Secretary and the US made a futile attempt to screw Bombardier and Canada.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 16-10-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  64. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    It’s interesting, good news I think. I wonder if the tariffs get dropped now, if it’s going to be built in Alabama? No doubt that would make the Delta order.
    What's the benefit to Canada.?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    It’s interesting, good news I think. I wonder if the tariffs get dropped now, if it’s going to be built in Alabama? No doubt that would make the Delta order.
    What's the benefit to Canada.?
    49.5% of the shares in the C Series Program remain in Canadian hands. If with the new line in Alabama sales increase and grow in the US and elsewhere - thats jobs for Canada (lots of the parts will be made in Canada) and revenue will flow to Bombardier and Government of Quebec. Further, the line at Montreal will be strengthened as sales increase. This is a huge win for the C Series - and actually is likely to hurt Boeing given this AirBus and Bombardier partnership will certainly secure new market share and may well have the legs needed for the next aircraft in the CS series. A great news day for Canada.

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    Great, GREAT, nay fantastic news.

    Hey Boeing - up yours, now on to the world trade organization about your subsidies.
    ... gobsmacked

  67. #267

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    Its essentially a joint venture to get around the Tariff, I don't see how the US can impose foreign tariffs on something that will be assembled in the US. It gives Airbus an interesting aircraft that slots in below the 319, it basically takes the place of the old 318 for airbus (re the CS 300).

    It might make sense to rebrand the CS300 the Airbus 318, and the CS100 the Airbus 317, not sure, or if Airbus drops the 319 which at 160 has same capacity as CS300.

    The deal is the first of its kind for Airbus, which is putting in no equity upfront for its 50.01% stake. Bombardier has agreed to finance up to $700 million of any near-term funding needs. Airbus, meanwhile, will take operational control and put its enormous sales and marketing infrastructure to work selling the CSeries.

    The single-aisle jet has won positive reviews from passengers and airlines. Bombardier has struggled to sell the plane, however, amid uncertainty over whether the Canadian firm had the financial muscle to sustain the program. That worry is now gone.

    Whether Airbus’ backing alone can turn the plane into a real hit is another question. The plane is slightly smaller than the workhorses that have become the industry’s best sellers. It’s a plane size Boeing and Airbus have both stayed away from in the past, amid questions over demand from airlines, especially in the U.S. They have tended to prefer either smaller regional planes seating up to 100 passengers or larger short-haul planes carrying 150 people or more and even bigger intercontinental versions.

    Airbus thinks the CSeries, that typically seats between 100 and 150 passengers, can dominate what it calls a new market for some 6,000 planes over the next two decades, said Patrick de Castelbajac, Airbus head of strategy, in an interview Tuesday. “We see a big growth reservoir in a market that is largely untapped,” he said. Bombardier has so far sold just 360 CSeries planes in almost a decade.
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/airbus-...ing-1508245759

    Not surprisingly, Boeing is upset:

    The uncertainty over the U.S. deal helped spur talks between Airbus and Bombardier, which began in August. The Airbus agreement with Bombardier “looks like a questionable deal between two heavily state-subsidized competitors to skirt the recent findings of the U.S. government," Boeing said in a statement. Boeing and Airbus are also locked in a multi-year battle at the World Trade Organization over commercial airplane subsidies.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-10-2017 at 11:15 AM.

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    Business analysts are saying Boeing made a tactical blunder - and now Bombardier / Airbus have delivered a blow to Boeing's solarplexes ...

    Bombardier has been hit with massive preliminary duties in the U.S. in a trade dispute with Boeing Co. over a big C Series sales to Delta Air Lines.

    While many analysts believed Boeing's claim was unjustified, it came during a new trade era in the U.S., where the Trump administration has taken off the gloves.


    "This is a program that has been waiting for a deus ex machina, and wow, it really got one," Mr. Aboulafia told Bloomberg.


    While Airbus now looks like a global company, Boeing appears "a bit shortsighted and protectionist. It makes Boeing look like they've been playing tic tac toe against a chess master," Bloomberg reported.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Airbus builds another plant , in Alabama, hmm, I wonder down the road if they will need Bombardier

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Airbus builds another plant , in Alabama, hmm, I wonder down the road if they will need Bombardier
    Airbus already operates a plant in Alabama. The C-Series would just be a second production line in the existing plant.
    No they don't need Bombardier. The C-series can be thought of as a separate company and they're the majority owners now.

    It's an interesting deal. BBD gives up half their program (and all the costs) for free. But by doing so, they likely increase the future sales by 2-3x. So they're probably still further ahead. Good strategic move.

  71. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Airbus builds another plant , in Alabama, hmm, I wonder down the road if they will need Bombardier
    Airbus has the ability in a few years time to buy Bombardier and Quebec out.

    The good news here, is Airbus will probably design fund and build the stretched CS500 as its replacement for the 320 (or they will take a lot of the design and increase the diameter of the body). It gives them a competitor for much cheaper than the Boeing 737 replacement - basically the Canadian / Quebec government has paid for a ton of the research for the next generation of Airbus.

  72. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Airbus has the ability in a few years time to buy Bombardier and Quebec out.
    Then we can go back to being hewers of wood....
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  73. #273

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    ^I'd rather chop wood and make money, than make planes and lose money (that wood choppers have to pay for).

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Airbus builds another plant , in Alabama, hmm, I wonder down the road if they will need Bombardier
    Airbus has the ability in a few years time to buy Bombardier and Quebec out.

    The good news here, is Airbus will probably design fund and build the stretched CS500 as its replacement for the 320 (or they will take a lot of the design and increase the diameter of the body). It gives them a competitor for much cheaper than the Boeing 737 replacement - basically the Canadian / Quebec government has paid for a ton of the research for the next generation of Airbus.
    Isn't 50% made in the US now. $450 million, does the good old taxpayer get that back??

  75. #275

    Default CSeries planes — controlled in Europe, built in Alabama, subsidized in Canada

    Whatever else may have changed as a result of the deal, the basic elements of the Bombardier business model — sucking subsidies from the government — have not

    ...

    Not only is Airbus paying no cash and assuming no debt for its share in the CSeries program, but Bombardier will remain on the hook for any future losses on the project, up to US$700 million

    ...

    All the Airbus deal has done is crystallize past folly. It’s obviously a great deal for Airbus. And it’s better than nothing, for Bombardier. But is it for the taxpayer, or the Canadian economy? It’s true that 50 per cent of some sales is better than 100 per cent of no sales (or as Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard put it, “selling planes makes money, not selling planes makes no money”). But so far as the planes sell for less than they cost to make, the least-cost option is not to make them at all.
    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andr...ized-in-canada

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    Interesting news now says it was the govt that suggested restarting talks with Airbus, rather than pair up with China. They were concerned about IP drainage and theft in a China tie-up and so Ottawa nudged BBD towards Airbus. Also interesting that Boeing had essentially the same offer presented to them a year ago, but passed on it.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/c-se...rbus-1.4370696

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    Don't think there will be CS500 if the Comac C919 is out there.

    Also, need to look at Sukhoi SuperJet 100
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Superjet_100

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    Air Canada is about to take delivery of its first Boeing 737-8 Max. The photo in the link is of the aircraft on a test flight at Boeing's Renton facility in Seattle.

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...-8-Max/4661285

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    Default Delta agrees to purchase up to 200 Airbus jets

    Boeing and Delta are embroiled in an ongoing trade dispute over the airline's purchase of the smaller Canadian Bombardier C Series. Boeing has accused Bombardier of selling the C Series to Delta at unfairly low prices, and the U.S. Commerce Department has recommended a preliminary 300% tariff on the import of the jets. Bombardier and the Canadian government deny any unfair trade practices.
    http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/14/news...eal/index.html

    Retribution? Delta is really p*ssed off at Boeing.
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  80. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    Air Canada is about to take delivery of its first Boeing 737-8 Max. The photo in the link is of the aircraft on a test flight at Boeing's Renton facility in Seattle.

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-C...-8-Max/4661285
    Curious how it lines up to the WJ version which is already in service (I was luck enough to fly on it per below), I'm guessing its pretty similar:

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...Dreamliner-etc

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    Default JetBlue orders 60 A220-300s to replace E190s

    JetBlue Airways, providing an early boost to the newly rebranded Airbus A220 line and delivering a notable blow to Embraer, has placed an order for 60 A220-300s—previously known as Bombardier CS300s—and earmarked them as E190 replacements. Delivers are planned to start in 2020.
    The deal, the first announced under the new Airbus-Bombardier partnershipthat took over the CSeries, includes options for 60 more aircraft, which would begin arriving in 2025. JetBlue also has options to swap smaller A220-100s (previously CS100s) for the larger -300 models.
    http://m.atwonline.com/aircraft-orde...-replace-e190s
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    Strange how with the new name on the hull, the orders begin....
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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    Strange how with proper management sales begin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Strange how with proper management sales begin.
    These will be assembled in the USA by Aerobus. Bombardier is not in the picture other than parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Strange how with proper management sales begin.
    These will be assembled in the USA by Aerobus. Bombardier is not in the picture other than parts.
    We bail them out and get SOLD out!!!
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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    Interesting article on the new 90-seat Q400 approved certification.

    "Transport Canada has certified Bombardier's 90-seat Q400 configuration, clearing the way for deliveries to launch customer SpiceJet starting later this year, and the manufacturer said more orders are on the way. Indian LCC SpiceJet last year signed on to be the 90-seat Q400’s launch customer as part of a 25-aircraft firm order, and all of them are slated to be in the new configuration. The Gurgaon, India-based LCC operates 22 Q400s in 78-seat configurations."

    "Many operators viewed the Q400 as a typical turboprop—too slow and small to truly integrate with mainline flying, Bombardier Commercial Aircraft VP & head of marketing Patrick Baudis explained. But airlines such as Ethiopian Airlines and Calgary-based WestJet Airlines are leveraging the aircraft’s speed—its 360-kt maximum cruise speed is about 25% faster than the ATR 72—to work the Q400 into mainline schedules. The carriers are able to swap the aircraft on routes that cannot support mainline narrowbodies, or benefit from having more frequency instead of higher-capacity aircraft."

    http://atwonline.com/airframes/bomba...es-more-orders

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