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Thread: The right plane for Canadian Routes?

  1. #101

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    ^hopefully the drop in oil prices will lead to a resurgence in air travel / increase airline demand. I do want this plane to succeed, but it is a massive gamble as it is butting up against Airbus and Boeing and the whole movement towards single plane fleets which reduces maintenance and pilot training costs, ala WestJet and their 737's.

  2. #102

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    Don't count on lower prices to increase demand. If anything, demand from YEG may drop.

    Air fares unlikely to fall alongside oil prices, experts say

    Executives and analysts at the Airline Economics conference in Dublin said carriers would keep prices high as long as there was sufficient demand, except when paring back fuel surcharges on long flights.

    “Ticket prices are market-driven not cost-driven,” said Peter Davies, former chief executive of Air Malta, adding that lowering fares was not necessarily the correct response to lower oil prices.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle22536542/

  3. #103

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    ^ the delay at the moment is understandable because most airlines purchase their fuel well in advance with forward contracts. These will start expiring in a few months time though, this will show us how competitive the airline market is, I have heard there is already some price cutting in the US. With just WJ and AC here, I fear the wait could be a lot longer, there is little incentive for either to drop prices.
    Last edited by moahunter; 22-01-2015 at 06:17 AM.

  4. #104

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    "Any commodity is sold at the price the market will bear, the only thing related to input costs is airline profit margin."

    - micro 101
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  5. #105

    Default Bombardier financial issuance massively oversubscribed

    The company on Friday announced the final number: it ended up raising $1.08 billion — or 80% more than it originally anticipated. In all, Bombardier sold 487.84 million receipts. In fact, it sold so many that shareholder approval is required.
    Source

    I don't think there's any way to misinterpret the market's confidence and expectations.
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  6. #106
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    Good news although I am surprised with all the negativity surrounding upper management.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  7. #107

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    From this distance I'm more surprised by the negativity. They've already hit the 500 break-even mark for commitments with a product with the first engine technology shift in decades. That alone could keep their manufacturing lines going for five years.
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  8. #108
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    The fact that their sales team is in a state of flux could have been enough to turn people off.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    The fact that their sales team is in a state of flux could have been enough to turn people off.
    Unfortunatley a massive chunk of the market has already been taken by the 737 Max and Airbus NEO. The biggest sweet spot in the market is a little bigger than this plane, and airlines tend to prefer commanality, being able to fly a bigger plane slightly unprofitable on a smaller route for the maintenance savings / pilot training simplicity. Hopefully there is enough "niche" left for the CS, but its not a sure thing that this will ever earn a sufficient return to justify the billions invested (hence, the run on the stock price). I read an article recently which quoted anon some former executives of Bombardiar, who said the analysis when they did this project, assumed that Airbus and Boeing would compete with their existing plane / or a brand new plane (which would take years). They totally missed the possiblity the two competitors would simply bolt on more efficient engines / make some other upgrades, a tactic that has taken the market by storm as it has generated close fuel savings to the CS but without the massive development cost to recover. Even Canadian carriers - Air Canada and WJ purchased the Boeing Max. The CS looks a terrific plane, but it is up against two proven / well established planes, whose manufacturers have the money to discount deeply / predatory price (they are selling larger planes for less than what the CS will sell for).
    Last edited by moahunter; 02-03-2015 at 04:33 PM.

  10. #110

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    ^ and even more unfortunate than that, there is over a billion dollars looking at your assessment and calling it wrong.
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  11. #111

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    ^The shares were issued at a more than 25 percent discount from market price (and Quebec has said publicly it would bankroll the company / not allow it to fail). Its a good bet, as long as prices stay stable, a 25% return, those are hard to find today. Bombardiar is more than just the CS. The CS I think will be a great plane, but I don't think it will ever be a profitable one (at least, if you include the development cost).
    Last edited by moahunter; 02-03-2015 at 04:56 PM.

  12. #112
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    Yes Moa we know all of this so don't you think it is quite remarkable that they over sold their stock offering if the plane is a lemon? It is a pro ute to the plane itself that it has done as well as it has considering the inept sales department and upper managements handling of the business end of things.
    AC still has to replace 25 Embraers to service their smaller routes and they have shown a strong interest but they don't need them right now.
    Bombardier have the CS500 on the drawing boards designed for 160+ passengers which if they commit to would be right up the gut of their rivals. That is what their competition is really frightened of as Bombardier could offer a nice suite of aircraft for domestic carriers.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Yes Moa we know all of this so don't you think it is quite remarkable that they over sold their stock offering if the plane is a lemon?
    That's a credit card return (with downside perhaps limited by the Quebec government backing). I really do hope the plane does well, I think technological wise it is ahead of the competitors, and it would be great for Canada to have a real competitor to Boeing and Airbus (albeit, subject to how much government subsidy needed - Boeing gets juicy military contracts, Airbus gets grants). I just don't think there is enough market it for it right now (it would have been there if Boeing and Airbus had not done the next generation engine bolt on upgrades). As to a bigger version, if they can afford it, that might be the future, but that will all turn on how the CS does, there is every incentive for Airbus and Boeing to approach the "soft" customers of the CS and offer them predatory deals.
    Last edited by moahunter; 02-03-2015 at 05:07 PM.

  14. #114
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    Let's just agree this is not a slam dunk. If the Bombarier family steps back and does not undermine the new CEO then it stands a chance but remember they have the majority of voting shares. Frightening.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  15. #115

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    ^agreed, I'm sure someone will write a great book on it. It would be fun to interview the former sales group, for example, I can imagine (?) the family berating them for lack of sales (at least, that is what I have seen at other private companies), sales people get the biggest bucks, and the biggest stress.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Yes Moa we know all of this so don't you think it is quite remarkable that they over sold their stock offering if the plane is a lemon?
    That's a credit card return (with downside perhaps limited by the Quebec government backing). I really do hope the plane does well, I think technological wise it is ahead of the competitors, and it would be great for Canada to have a real competitor to Boeing and Airbus (albeit, subject to how much government subsidy needed - Boeing gets juicy military contracts, Airbus gets grants). I just don't think there is enough market it for it right now (it would have been there if Boeing and Airbus had not done the next generation engine bolt on upgrades). As to a bigger version, if they can afford it, that might be the future, but that will all turn on how the CS does, there is every incentive for Airbus and Boeing to approach the "soft" customers of the CS and offer them predatory deals.
    Between them Boeing and Airbus have about 6500 orders.
    http://www.pdxlight.com/neomax.htm
    The prediction for total orders for the next 20 years is 22,000 single aisle planes.
    http://www.airbus.com/company/market...docID%5D=40815
    Still lots of potential for sales.
    Last edited by Glenco; 02-03-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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  17. #117
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    Default C-series exceeds some performance targets as flight tests progress

    In its brochure for the CSeries, Bombardier touts “a 20% fuel burn advantage and a 15% cash operating cost advantage over in-production aircraft in its class.”

    The company wouldn’t specify which numbers are coming in better than expected, saying it plans to release more details at the International Paris Air Show in June.

    http://business.financialpost.com/20...ests-progress/
    Last edited by Glenco; 07-03-2015 at 02:06 PM.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  18. #118

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    Lufthansa has pulled out, and Qatar also announced no longer considering. Customers and potential customers are dropping like flies:

    http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-...ile&cmpid=rss1

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    LH didn't pull out they still have an order, their subsidery decided to order something else. Still hope with Swiss.

  20. #120

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    ^I fear they are the blackberry of the airlines though, interesting technology and a limited niche market. The CS will be like the passport, loved by a few fans but ignored by most. I had the misfortune to fly a CRJ 705 a few days ago, I hate when airlines fly these little planes on distance roots, tiny toliets, and my head bangs into the ceiling. At least the CS will have a bit more room being one seat wider, but it won't be as comfortable as an Airbus or boeing with six across (at least for me, I like space above). Imo they should have matched 737 / 320, not chosen "one size smaller" on the diameter.
    Last edited by moahunter; 13-03-2015 at 07:12 AM.

  21. #121
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    This plane can't be compared to the CRJ's. Personally I prefer flying a Embraer over an airbus due to 2x2 seating. The C series on the side that has 3 seats has a wider middle seat which should make it even more comfortable.

    The C series may not have a lot of backorders, but I don't think the comparison to BlackBerry is a fair example. Unlike BlackBerry the C Series is a new direction for BBD. They have done their research to find a market niche, where Blackberry was playing catch-up in technology.

  22. #122
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    ^ Me too. The Embraer 2 X 2 seating is the only reason I fly Air Dickhead.

    As for the C Series - it will all come down to fuel performance in the end - because while it may not be an issue now - the price of jet fuel will once again hurt some day.
    ... gobsmacked

  23. #123

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    ^ agreed. The success of the program will mostly depend on the success of the engine in terms of maintenance, reliability, as well as its real fuel performance.

    But thank goodness loagunter has graced us with his in-depth analysis of a Quebec company's market from the standpoint of a Cowfartgy bigot, who knows as little about either aerospace or any other nationalised oligopolistic competition as he does about stucco on the Pearl tower.

    Opinions are like a§§holes, and a§§holes like their opinions.

    Looking forward to some large number stats on the GTF performance. The theory looks bang-on, but Pratt and Whitney have just got to execute.
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  24. #124

    Default Will low oil prices crush Bombardier Inc?

    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    ^ Me too. The Embraer 2 X 2 seating is the only reason I fly Air Dickhead.

    As for the C Series - it will all come down to fuel performance in the end - because while it may not be an issue now - the price of jet fuel will once again hurt some day.
    A big part of performance though is price, both up front, and long term maintenance. Per the article below, the A320 Neo is being offered by Airbus at half the price of the CS300, for a more flexible plane as larger, that has proven performance and the latest engines. 30m pays for a lot of fuel:

    http://www.fool.ca/2015/03/13/will-l...ombardier-inc/
    Last edited by moahunter; 14-03-2015 at 05:41 AM.

  25. #125
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    I really never understand the "better engine" and fuel savings brought up by Bombardier. First, isn't Boeing and Airbus basically refitting the 737 and 320 families with new engines which are quite fuel efficient in their own right? Second, if Bombardier's fuel savings were so significant over Boeing and Airbus wouldn't that equate to more sales? Something just doesn't add up but i'm only asking. I have no ides about the technical differences in the Boeing, Airbus and Bombardier families.

  26. #126

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    Companies with huge pockets- such as Boeing and Airbus- can easily drown out smaller players despite having a better product.

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by LO 044 View Post
    I really never understand the "better engine" and fuel savings brought up by Bombardier. First, isn't Boeing and Airbus basically refitting the 737 and 320 families with new engines which are quite fuel efficient in their own right? Second, if Bombardier's fuel savings were so significant over Boeing and Airbus wouldn't that equate to more sales? Something just doesn't add up but i'm only asking. I have no ides about the technical differences in the Boeing, Airbus and Bombardier families.
    First, yes, Ai and Boe are refitting, but in that case they're still basically decades-old designs and they shrink towards the C-Series sweetspot unoptimaly. They're best at the A321 and B-900 lengths.

    Second, sometimes extra fuel cost is worth eating when total fleet costs are lower. In a higher density market, bigger airplanes fit better and if you need and you've got 50 A320s, then all your pilots and maintenance crew know the A319 better than the CS300, thus they save costs in training, spare parts and crew flexibility.

    If you only need one type of aircraft, and it's 120 seats for your market optimisation, I think only subsidies and politics would play a Boe or Ai ahead. Which often happens as well...

    But closer to the reason the Pratt and Whitney GTF is such a big deal is it's the first really different engine in a very long time, and BBD has no backup plan if it doesn't work out the gate.

    The tube itself and the wings though, by far the best for its size range.
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  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Companies with huge pockets- such as Boeing and Airbus- can easily drown out smaller players despite having a better product.
    Agreed. Some basic advantages:
    1. Years of production efficiencies mass producing these aircraft
    2. Designs that recovered their basic design cost decades ago
    3. Proven reliability / maintenance
    4. Deep pockets like you say (to predatory price). Id bet are going after every Bombardier customer with sweet deals now
    5. Common cockpits with other aircraft (allowing pilots to advance / be redeployed with less training)
    6. Fuel economy that isn't that different by changing to same generation engines. It will be interesting to see if the max and neo are commercially flying before the CS300.

    Regardless of how good the CS300 plane is, it's looking more and more like a financial dud. It will work in some niche markets but that's not enough to justify the billions to build it. There is a long history of airline makers disappearing even after making great aircraft (eg MD 80s).
    Last edited by moahunter; 15-03-2015 at 10:09 PM.

  29. #129
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    Predatory pricing is not going to help when no one wants to buy your comparative model either. Boeing have said they will not make the next gen B737-600 anymore unless an airline insists. Only two airlines have ordered the Max 7 one being Westjet who have the option to change their minds and order the Max 8 or 9 instead. The Boeing max does not perform well in the smaller versions. The same for Airbus A319neo which is some 12,000lbs heavier than the CS 300.
    The big questions are, is there a sufficient demand for a plane in the 110 to 130 seat range or is it a dead zone as some suggest and have Bombardier lost credibility with airlines?
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  30. #130

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    Talk Bombairdiar may be forced to sell its rail operations to help fund the CS:

    http://montrealgazette.com/news/loca...it-up-for-sale

  31. #131

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    Lang and Oleary on CBC had mentioned that as well. According to that report, they have heavily invested in the C series and cannot back out.

  32. #132
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    Default Bombardier Weighs Third CSeries Jet Model

    A notional third model, dubbed the CS500, would compete with larger versions of coming updated models of Boeing’s 737 and Airbus’s A320 that have sold by the thousands.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/bombardi...del-1432239757
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  33. #133

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    Wow. Some high stakes, but possibly will be their best seller anyways. Bigger effect is providing a complete family for many airlines.
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  34. #134
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    Bombardier said flight test results showed the plane was exceeding initial targets for fuel burn, payload, range and airfield performance. The jet can fly a maximum range of up to 3,300 nautical miles, 350 nautical miles further than originally anticipated.

    In terms of fuel burn, it is delivering a 20 percent advantage compared with existing aircraft and offers a 10 percent benefit against new engine aircraft, Bombardier Commercial President Fred Cromer told journalists at an event ahead of the Paris Airshow, which begins on Monday.
    http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine...0OU0EE20150614
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  35. #135

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    Wow, maybe Sunwing can buy some so they can get all the way to Dominican Republic without refuelling in Regina.

    (please)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  36. #136

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    The Paris Air Show is turning into a bit of a fiasco for Bombardier , its great the CS 300 is flying and looks beautiful and all, but its the competitors getting the sales. Boeing just sold 100 plus:

    Dutch-based leasing company AerCap ordered 100 737MAX-8 planes after long negotiations, Boeing said Tuesday. The deal is worth up to $10.7 billion, though customers routinely negotiate discounts off list prices.
    In other Boeing announcements:
    • the Ireland-based leasing company SMBC Aviation Capital ordered 10 of the 737MAX-8 jets, worth up to $1 billion.
    • the Indonesian domestic airline Sriwijaya Air ordered two 737-900 jets, for up to $198 million.
    • the Chinese low-cost carrier Rulli Airlines made a commitment to buy 30 planes from the 737 MAX range.
    • the Chinese leasing company Minsheng Financial signed a preliminary 737 deal for 30 planes.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11466192

    Embraer has also announced a big order of 50 sales (in the smaller CS teritory):

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/0...0OV0SR20150615

    Bombardier is still short of the 300 goal pre production, and there are concerns many of the signed up contracts are not "locked in". They need to get selling ASAP, a big Paris announcement would help a lot, only an upsizing for Swiss so far.

    “I maintain that, without an order (this) week, it’s a bad week for them,” said Rolland Vincent, former director of international airline analysis at Bombardier who now runs aviation consultancy Rolland Vincent Associates.

    “The best thing they could be doing right now is keeping an ace up their sleeve and pull out a nice big order in Paris. Even 20 airplanes plus 20 (options) would be a really nice vote of confidence.”
    http://www.nationalpost.com/Paris+Sh...488/story.html
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-06-2015 at 04:19 PM.

  37. #137

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    ^ you know, it's funny. I woke up this morning and right then it occured to me:

    "I wonder what brainwashed Calgary bigots think about Québec companies on Tuesdays?"

    Thanks!
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  38. #138
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    Wow, that is pretty offensive.

  39. #139

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    What would you call a spade?
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  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Wow, that is pretty offensive.
    I'm guessing another imature personal attack (Admin seem to condone them from some posters) from someone I ignore. I wonder if personally attacked Rolland Vincent as well, former Bombardiar employee? I hope Bombardiar get some orders ASAP. I'm worried about this plane though, the 737Max and Airbus Neo are wracking up the sales at the larger size, and Embraer is wracking them up at the smaller size. Its a bit like the Boeing 717, terrific aircraft that has performed very well in service, but all of a sudden the market fell away, these niche planes don't always work out, especially since airlines moved more towards standardized fleets (the 717 is an MD plane that Boeing acquired, so not the same cockpit as its 737's, sold well to Delta though who still fly MDs). The problem for Bombardiar is they have a lot of development cost to recover, so they are struggling to competivley price against existing/modified models at both ends of the squeeze, the drop in fuel prices doesn't help them either. They need a big order / vote of confidence, if I was them, I'd consider even discount / price at a loss (i.e. not recovering development cost), just to get that vote of confidence right now. A firm 100 plane order might do wonders for the CS 300, the risk though is if you discount, then you might have to write off that sunk development spend, which would I suspect be financially devestating. I sense a big Quebec government bail out coming (hopefully not Feds as well, although it would make a great executive plane for the government, and perhaps a good soldier transport for the military, so some sweetheart deal there might work), to enable them to price it better. After that, it could perhaps still be a "success" (depending on how you define that word, in fairness, Boeing and Airbus get big subsidies too, through military contracts / or direct assistance).
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-06-2015 at 09:08 AM.

  41. #141

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    (^ asterisk as always.)
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  42. #142
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    Default Airbus, Boeing Suppliers Urge Caution on Boosting Single-Aisle Jet Production

    LE BOURGET, France—As Airbus Group SE and Boeing Co. explore whether to boost output of their most popular single-aisle jetliners, key suppliers are starting to urge the two plane makers to move cautiously, with demand already stretching production capacity.

    “There are restrictions to how fast we can ramp up,” said François Bastin, executive vice president at CFM International, a joint venture between General Electric Co. and Safran SA, ahead of the coming week’s Paris International Air Show.
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/airbus-b...ion-1434210995
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  43. #143

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    ^the next gen jet engines seem to have had a lot of problems, Gear failures on A380's Trents, failures on CS and F35. I suppose just teething problems (I'm sure earlier jet engines had even more issues), if there is demand, hopefully the production can ramp up. It seems to be a "sign" that the industry is moving away quickly from spoke and hub though, all these single aisle.

  44. #144
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    Default Could build larger C Series aircraft, Bombardier executive says

    The C Series’ wings performed better in tests than expected, Dewar said, implying a larger C Series model could be developed without major new expense as a complete wing redesign would not be required.

    “That wing, if we ever did the 500, of course would be used and modified to do that,” he said.

    Customers have already shown an interest in a larger CS500 version, Dewar said.

    “We get demand for a larger aircraft, but we give them exactly the same response, we’re focused on the CS100 and 300,” he said.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle24996265/
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  45. #145

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    I really hope the 500 becomes a program soon, we all knew it would.

    Stretches always end up the most efficient members in the family, 150 seats is by far the largest segment in the world, and most importantly, airlines can buy a complete fleet of multiple family members.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Th“That wing, if we ever did the 500, of course would be used and modified to do that,” he said.
    A 180 seat plane would be a big help, but who will pay for it?

    Until Bombardier builds a bigger aircraft, it will never be able to compete effectively with Airbus and Boeing. These two companies operate at lower costs, thanks to their heft, and also have more to offer airlines. For example, if an airline agrees to buy some large aircraft from Airbus, some small planes can be thrown in at a heavy discount. Bombardier simply can’t compete with that.

    So, Bombardier will eventually have to build a bigger CSeries aircraft. I know that’s not what shareholders want to hear. They just want the nightmare to be over. But until the bigger plane gets built, Bombardier will be a minnow in a shark tank.

    Airbus and Boeing are well aware of this, and they don’t want Bombardier encroaching further on their turf. So, you should expect them to keep offering steep discounts in an attempt to keep Bombardier at bay.

    This is not good news for Bombardier, nor its shareholders. As an investor, this is something I don’t want to be a part of.
    http://www.fool.ca/2015/05/28/will-w...ombardier-inc/

  47. #147

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    ^ oh yes, let's prevent them from incurring a relatively minor incremental cost so that they can't attain a vastly more profitable and employment-creating profile. Because you'd rather pay for Québeccers on welfare.

    Let me guess, you studied poli sci?

    Neither industrial organisation nor business strategy nor economic strategy.
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  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    The C Series’ wings performed better in tests than expected, Dewar said, implying a larger C Series model could be developed without major new expense as a complete wing redesign would not be required.

    “That wing, if we ever did the 500, of course would be used and modified to do that,” he said.

    Customers have already shown an interest in a larger CS500 version, Dewar said.

    “We get demand for a larger aircraft, but we give them exactly the same response, we’re focused on the CS100 and 300,” he said.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle24996265/
    So are they ignoring what the market wants?

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    I don't think they are ignoring the market they simply don't have the resources to develop all three versions at once. However not having the CS500 is hurting sales. Rock and hard place.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  50. #150

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    ^ Exactly.

    It's actually their very first completely new commercial airplane platform (and second all-new overall to the Global series), it's got to start somewhere, but it can't really start at maturity. I expect the family could be stretched again to a CS700 even, with 170 seats in mixed class, but one step at a time.
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  51. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Bombardier said flight test results showed the plane was exceeding initial targets for fuel burn, payload, range and airfield performance. The jet can fly a maximum range of up to 3,300 nautical miles, 350 nautical miles further than originally anticipated.

    In terms of fuel burn, it is delivering a 20 percent advantage compared with existing aircraft and offers a 10 percent benefit against new engine aircraft, Bombardier Commercial President Fred Cromer told journalists at an event ahead of the Paris Airshow, which begins on Monday.
    http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine...0OU0EE20150614
    Just for a visual reference, 3300 nm at YEG (no wind effects, etc.):



    Source
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Bombardier said flight test results showed the plane was exceeding initial targets for fuel burn, payload, range and airfield performance. The jet can fly a maximum range of up to 3,300 nautical miles, 350 nautical miles further than originally anticipated.

    In terms of fuel burn, it is delivering a 20 percent advantage compared with existing aircraft and offers a 10 percent benefit against new engine aircraft, Bombardier Commercial President Fred Cromer told journalists at an event ahead of the Paris Airshow, which begins on Monday.
    http://ca.reuters.com/article/busine...0OU0EE20150614
    Just for a visual reference, 3300 nm at YEG (no wind effects, etc.):
    Just for my own reference, when they are listing a maximum range, is that a realistic range for the distance that an airline would actually comfortably fly, or is 3300 miles when the tank runs dry? I am just trying to get a sense if the destinations marked on the globe are realistic, or if once airlines account for wind, safety factor etc, will this number be lower.

  53. #153

    Default

    I think the distances they quote are for air, not ground, and air of course moves.

    Wind will put a dent in "reliable operations" as while it sometimes helps increase range, you have to operate at the minimums, not the maximums or even the averages.

    For context, Sunwing's 737-800s are rated at around 200 nm less than the CSeries, and they often need to refuel in Winnipeg, Regina, or Calgary to make it all the way back from Punta Cana (although I understand they usually make the outbound flight non-stop). I would venture the CSeries would be able to operate that route non-stop significantly more often than the 737. Other routes would naturally have other prevailing wind conditions.

    It's also normal for makers to release "extended range" models after the first versions generate a few years' data.
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    Default Bombardier Inc ‘doing all the right things’ — but still a long way from CSeries targ

    “After years of foolishness, they’re doing all the right things,” he said. “I’m prepared and I think many other people are prepared to give them time, but on the other hand there’s an awareness that this is a 12- to 18-month story, not a take-the-rest-of-the-decade story.”
    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...cseries-target
    Last edited by Glenco; 23-06-2015 at 07:39 PM.
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  56. #156

    Default Bombardier shares hit 22 year low

    An expected customer appears to be choosing Boeing:

    Bombardier could also be taking a hit from the lack of CSeries orders.

    China Eastern Airlines announced it is buying 50 Boeing 737 aircraft for its budget subsidiary, China United Airlines.

    Boeing said the order is for planes with 160 to 189 seats, larger than the CSeries. However, the order from China's third-largest airline will reportedly also include upgraded Max variants.

    Walter Spracklin of RBC Capital Markets initially issued a report suggesting the order could include the 737Max-7, which holds 125 seats and would be a direct competitor to the CSeries.

    He later amended it to reflect the larger plane size.

    "While the 737-800 is not a direct competitor to the CSeries, the order from China Eastern...does likely reduce the probability of a CSeries order from China Eastern in the near term," he wrote in a report.
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/bomba...-low-1.2463400
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-07-2015 at 01:36 PM.

  57. #157
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    Default Bombardier Inc offered to sell majority stake in CSeries program to Airbus: sources

    Under a proposed tie-up, Airbus would help Bombardier complete development of the troubled aircraft in exchange for a controlling stake in the program, effectively ending Bombardier’s independent efforts to break into the 100- to 160-seat airplane market dominated by Airbus and Boeing.

    Significant hurdles would need to be cleared before Airbus took up the surprise offer to invest in its smaller competitor.

    “There are ongoing discussions, but they are still exploratory ones. Neither management has made a decision,” said one of the sources, who asked not to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter, as did the other sources.
    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...airbus-sources
    Bombardier’s Class B shares surged nearly 15 per cent to $1.77 in Toronto when markets closed on Tuesday.
    Last edited by Glenco; 06-10-2015 at 02:37 PM.
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  58. #158

    Default

    ^what a disaster for Bombardiar, I wonder if production would even stay in Canada then once development is done.

  59. #159

    Default The best technology doesn't always win

    Interesting article here (albeit a little old). It's suggests Pratt and Whitney might have talked bombardier into the CS300, simply to get Airbus and Boeing to re-engine:

    http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...ombardier.html

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    Default Bombardier, Airbus end talks over CSeries jet investment

    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  61. #161

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    ^it was a bit of a strange idea. Airlines like Boeing and Airbus, like to have "commonality". Things like compatible cockpits (so a pilot can easily get trained on another of their brands aircraft), and common parts (to encourage airlines to stick with their "fleet"). I think if Boeing or Airbus aquired the CS, it wouldn't turn out well.

  62. #162

    Default

    ^ so much for chicken little's "disaster", I guess? Better 'luck' next time?



    Airbus and Bombardier rehash these talks pretty much every 5 years.


    For the CSeries, it (still ) all comes down to the engine. If the engine makes it one year in service without either catastrophic failure or unexpected maintenance costs, Bombardier will have the most coveted narrowbody aircraft (and narrowbody program) in the World. A fleet of them will be a selling point for airlines, and combined with the vastly more competitive delivery slots, the siege will loosen and wither. If that happens, that would be when you sell out. Again, it all comes down to the engine.

    Yes it's a balancing act, yes this is one of the years when the rail division has to carry the company, yes it's still going to be a balancing act next month and next Spring, just like last month and last Spring. That this is (still ) a colossal gamble is not news. When wasn't it?

    Personally I'm more anxious to see the C500 officially launched, as I mentioned before, that's where the larger numbers can be sold. The C100 and C300 are too close in size, many airlines would want a wider spread in capacity configurations. Plus the most efficient aircraft are always the stretches.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  63. #163

    Default Trudeau would allow foreign investment, Mulcair opposed

    A difference between Trudeau and Mulcair re Bombairdiar (and perhaps oil and gas companies as well):

    http://www.torontosun.com/2015/10/08...reign-investor

    It notes in there that Bombardiar haven't sold one CS in more than a year. In the meantime Boeing and Airbus have been racking up sales of the Max and Neo, which are larger, only marginally less fuel efficient (about 5 percent), and based on proven designs. There seems to be a trend happening with Airlines choosing larger two engine models, not just in these single isles, but also wide bodies. Airlines have been switching 787 orders to instead take larger 777s. Hopefully there is still enough of a niche for the CS to gain new sales once it's in production, but it's a tough ask to convince an airline to take a smaller plane at a higher price.

  64. #164

    Default

    ^ good idea changing the topic. Still not voting for the clown 'saving tax dollars' (for Calgary.)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  65. #165
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    Default Bombardier Inc shares climb as United Airlines shows interest in CSeries, Embraer jet

    United Airlines plans to order a fleet of 100-seat jetliners from either Bombardier Inc. or Embraer SA if it can agree on terms for a two-year contract extension with pilots in expedited bargaining.
    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...s-embraer-jets
    Last edited by Glenco; 09-10-2015 at 10:07 PM.
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  66. #166

  67. #167

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    ^ wait, I thought we were only supposed to bail out Cowgary companies.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ wait, I thought we were only supposed to bail out Cowgary companies.
    Only one if they are controlled by US interests - then the Harper government finds money to "flow" to them somehow and someway.

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    For those of us with long memories, Liberal gov'ts of yesteryear frequently bailed out companies based in Quebec. It fit with their strategy of regional industrial development, job creation in depressed areas, and promotion of national unity.

  70. #170

    Default Feds asked to chip in one billion as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    For those of us with long memories, Liberal gov'ts of yesteryear frequently bailed out companies based in Quebec. It fit with their strategy of regional industrial development, job creation in depressed areas, and promotion of national unity.
    And it looks like it's returned:

    http://www.thestar.com/business/2015...r-bailout.html

    I don't expect Trudeau will be bailing out any failing oil service companies around Edmonton...

  71. #171

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    ^ not if the brainless Calgary troll can help it, huh?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  72. #172

    Default

    ^ why you always have your panties in a knot? Is it that time of the month?? Chill out!!!

  73. #173

    Default

    ^ Cry babies gonna cry.

    Time for Calgary companies to pay fair taxes and royalties.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  74. #174

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger View Post
    For those of us with long memories, Liberal gov'ts of yesteryear frequently bailed out companies based in Quebec. It fit with their strategy of regional industrial development, job creation in depressed areas, and promotion of national unity.
    The worst thing with this bail out, unlike Boeing or Airbus, or GM or Chrysler, is that Bombardiar is owned by a private family, it would be like if Alberta bailed out Husky, which is also privately owned, who just wrote off 3.8 billion, and cut 1400 jobs (note - I don't think Husky needs a bailout, I don't believe in bailouts - except in very rare situations). The super rich it seems, are also the super politically connected rich re propping up their mismanaged private businesses, if they are in Quebec.
    Last edited by moahunter; 01-11-2015 at 06:05 AM.

  75. #175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ Cry babies gonna cry.

    Time for Calgary companies to pay fair taxes and royalties.
    so only companies based outside of Calgary have been paying their share of taxes and royalties??? You are a joke and very immature. Somewhere somehow Calgary really really screwed your life. Wow....you are funny with your hate on for Calgary....lighten up!!

  76. #176

    Default

    oh look, its phifly, who only shows up to promote or discuss Calgary on an Edmonton forum.

    HI PHIFLY!!!
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  77. #177

    Default

    So anyways we have a thread here.

    Can we please discuss the airplane and program without the hyperpartisan freakazoid cowfarters biased idiocy?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    oh look, its phifly, who only shows up to promote or discuss Calgary on an Edmonton forum.

    HI PHIFLY!!!
    Hello Bedfards!

  79. #179

    Default

    ^
    Donkee is that you. Changed your name...

  80. #180

    Default Trudeau under pressure to bail out

    I agree with this article - I think if they must do a bail out, a condition should be that the family who has mismanged this project, loses ownership of it so a proper management team can come in (emphasis added):

    "I think any government — I don't care what party they're from — should walk very, very carefully into this," said Lee, who believes Ottawa should only provide the funds if the company changes the decision makers at the top.

    He said Bombardier faces internal challenges of being led by officials who overreached, guiding the company beyond its comfort zone of making smaller regional jets.

    With the bigger, CSeries commercial jets, it will find itself competing at a new level with massive global players like Airbus and Boeing, he added.

    "It's unfortunate but that's what happens on what I like to call the Serengeti of capitalism," Lee said of Bombardier's CSeries challenge.

    "On the Serengeti, the big, hungry, lean lions eat the weaker animals. That's just the way it is."
    http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/...-decision.html

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    I think the most interesting angle to federal government support of Bombardier, is the fact the Liberal government has already come out and said they wouldn't support any expansion of Toronto's Billy Bishop Airport, which would require both federal and municipal support to go ahead. Porter Airlines order for 30 of the C-Series jets is conditional on the runways being expanded at the island airport, I just think it would an interesting bit of political juggling if the Liberals are keen to offer direct support to Bombardier, but at the same time are dealing a heavy blow to their bottom line by effectively blocking a considerable order.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle27074974/

    The incoming Trudeau government, already facing a tough decision on whether to offer a $1-billion (U.S.) bailout to Bombardier, says it’s standing by a different political pledge that will end up hurting the Montreal aircraft maker and its troubled C Series plane.

    The Liberals, who take office in Ottawa on Wednesday, confirmed Monday that they remain opposed to allowing jets at Toronto’s Billy Bishop airport – which would kill an order worth more than $2-billion to Bombardier.

    Porter Airlines Inc. is prepared to buy as many as 30 of Bombardier’s C Series planes, but only if the runway at Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport is extended. The federal government is one of three parties that will rule on whether that extension can go ahead.

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  83. #183

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    ^basically, an Airbus 320 clone... the chinese went the whole hog after Airbus / Boeing, but will probably end up having the same problems Bombaridiar has had, re finding it hard to break customers from those companeis. Bombardiar has a strategic agreement with Comac. There was some speculation in the past Comac might buy Bombardiar:

    http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...ardier-win-win

    Not sure how that would work (not to mention the Chinese investment issues), problem is, its not really ideal to develop two planes independently then "stick them together as a family", as they won't have a lot of commonality.
    Last edited by moahunter; 03-11-2015 at 02:03 PM.

  84. #184

    Default Bombardier’s biggest gamble: How everything went so wrong with the CSeries dream

    Good article in the Financial Post:

    Scott had seemed unfazed initially by the possibility of Boeing and Airbus launching a counterattack against the CSeries.

    “They’ve said themselves that they don’t see introducing a new aircraft until 2015 or later,” he said on a 2008 conference call. He was right. But despite a two-year head start for Bombardier, by 2015, Airbus had still beat the CSeries with its own competing model. It received certification last month for its A320neo, a 150- to 180-seat aircraft that also uses Pratt & Whitney’s “whisper” engine and burns 16 per cent less fuel than the older A320s — just a bit less efficient than the CSeries.

    And Boeing is preparing a new, more fuel-efficient version of its 737, known as the 737 MAX, with first delivery planned for 2017. It, too, will compete for a portion of the same segment as the CSeries. Bombardier has been left to watch as Boeing and Airbus offer up aggressive pricing plans for longstanding clients who are more comfortable with brands they’ve used for decades, and the ones their pilots and mechanics already know their way around.

    As the CSeries troubles mounted, the company sensed its competition seizing on them to spread worry among buyers that Bombardier might not even be around for future servicing. “Your competition is spreading rumours that this program is going to kill the company financially,” says one former executive. “It presented a lot of clouds for customers.”

    The trouble was, the rumours weren’t that hard to believe: What had begun as an already ambitious and expensive initiative had begun to spin out of control. CEO Pierre Beaudoin estimated in 2008 that development of the CSeries would cost US$3.2 billion, split three ways between the company, its suppliers, and subsidies from Ottawa, Quebec, and the U.K., where Bombardier makes the CSeries’ wings. By early 2015, that budget had ballooned to US$5.4 billion. And Bombardier had nothing like the deep pockets of its rivals.
    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...-cseries-dream

  85. #185

    Default

    ^ wow, didn't hear the moaPost the first thousand times.

    We get it, anti-Quebec bigots are anti-Quebec bigots.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  86. #186
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    Default Bombardier receives CSeries certification from Transport Canada

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bomb...iday-1.3371265

    The Montreal-based manufacturer held a news conference Friday morning in Mirabel to provide an update on the 110- to 125-seat CS100, the smaller of two planes in the $5.4-billion US CSeries program.

  87. #187

    Default

    ^ Important first hurdle to certification, this after several hurdles of engineering.

    US and EU certification are practically certain to follow.

    If the engine doesn't suddenly crap out, BBD will be holding the most comfortable, coveted, and most economical single-aisle platform in the industry. Again, yes, high-stakes-gamble, but a step closer to reach today.
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    Just read the full literature on these babies, very impressive.
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  89. #189

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    With the engine trouble issue resolved, I hope they get going on production and sales. It will be hard to compete against the Giants Boeing and Airbus; and recently, on the CBC program "The Exchange,"(?)
    it stated that China will enter the construction race to produce airplanes as well.

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    That cockpit looks awesome.
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    Love that CS100 !!

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    That cockpit looks awesome.
    Sidestick ala Airbus.
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  94. #194

    Default

    Cold weather proving?

    Startup airline in the wings?
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    ^ Would cold-weather proving not have occurred prior to certification? Also, I don't think it gets cold enough in Edmonton for that. Usually it happens in a really cold spot, such as Iqaluit.

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    ^I think it has more to do with route proving as in exact fuel consumption and block times.
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    Bombardier’s C Series jet an ‘orphan,’ Airbus says

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle28133795/
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  98. #198

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    ^ouch, that's taking the gloves off - "a nice little plane that was probably forever doomed to be a poor seller"

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    Leafy is being an arse. Why make any comments about your competition unless you are not confident in your own product? Reminds me of BA when they made disparaging remarks about Virgin airlines trying to put them out of business.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  100. #200

    Default

    It's what Airhead and Boeknuckle have been trying to have all believe all along, but no mistake, very likely all 500 commitments will firm into hard sales, and lead to more.

    No different from Airbus's own entry to the market with the groundbreaking A300 versus better established but weaker technologically Douglas, Boeing and Lockheed.

    Similar even to Boeing's emergence to the jet scene with the 707. More people predicted failure of that program than this one by far.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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