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Thread: Arts-Hab | 10220 - 96 St. | ?m | 18 floors | Approved

  1. #101

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    That's closer to what I remember, but still changed a lot.

    Should have excellent heat performance, but I hope the first thing the residents do is repaint the exterior themselves...




    Editing to provide relevant pictures at the to of this new page:


    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post


    Proposed rezoning in The Quarters Downtown for artists' tower

    Residents are invited to a public meeting to provide feedback on a proposed rezoning on the southwest corner of 96 Street and 102 A Avenue NW in the Armature District of The Quarters Downtown.

    Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2015
    Time: 7 p.m.
    Location: Boyle Street Community League (101 Boyle Street Plaza)
    9538 103A Ave NW

    The proposed rezoning to a new (DC1) Direct Development Control Provision would allow for the construction of a 77-metre (approximately 18 storeys) tower known as the Artists Quarters. The proposed building would feature a maximum of 75 suites where artists would live and work, recreational and commercial uses in the bottom four storeys, and an underground parkade.

    A closure of a portion of a north/south alley located west of 96 Street NW between 102 and 102A Avenues would be required to accommodate the development.

    The public meeting will be an opportunity to learn more about the proposal and provide feedback, which will be summarized in a report to city council for a final decision on the proposed rezoning.

    The Artists Quarters Project is a partnership between the Artists Urban Village and the Arts Habitat Association of Edmonton, and is supported by the City of Edmonton’s Cornerstones program.
    https://twitter.com/CityofEdmonton/s...35852946690048
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sahlgoode View Post
    Some great wall adverts were exposed by the razing of that one.

    Mount Royal Razed by Canadax, on Flickr
    :
    Last edited by JayBee; 18-11-2015 at 05:09 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Can someone pretty please post the picture here on a non-twitter site?
    Many of us who access from work computers won't have access to Twitter.

  3. #103
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    I like it.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  4. #104
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    Looks great. Hope it gets built.

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    It's alright. The random scattering of balconies is interesting.

  6. #106

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    Just noticed those are sun-shades over the Southerly windows. Someone is putting everything they know into heat performance on this one. Would love to see some utility data modelling for this one.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  7. #107

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    BTW, this was mentioned in post 41, but I think bears mentioning again: this project is to feature yet another theatre.

    I'm guessing 200-300 seats, minimal fly and backstage, no pit. I know it's getting a very active resident company as well. Don't know if it's black-box or permanent seated, but really hope it's permanent seated.

    With this, RAM, the Winspear expansion, EDACC, and MU CFAC, that's eleven new performance halls within 2 km of each other.

    Plus at least eight new live music venues for the core (2 live venues in the ICE District Casino, Chvrch of John, 9910, The Needle, SPACE2, ARTery2, MU CFAC restaurant.)

    Oh yes we are getting somewhere.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    great podium. wtf is the rest supposed to be??

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    So, what I am wondering about is, the building on the corner, will that be left untouched or will it be part of this new complex and be rebuilt like the Kelly Ramsey was?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  10. #110

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    ^ façade kept only in this version.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  11. #111

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    Reminder of the meeting tonight.
    www.decl.org

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    Now I'm not suggesting that Micheals is the primary stop for artists in this city, but as I brought up in another thread, I wonder if a Micheals location (on a couple floors or so) in part of the podium of this building would be a good fit or not for the downtown area?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  13. #113

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    ^Michaels might be a bit large, and is more craft-oriented. I also can't see it going in a location with little existing pedestrian retail or numbers. But something like Colors or some other small art supply shop would be nice.
    www.decl.org

  14. #114
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    Colours would be awesome there. Although I wonder if they would they want to move their central location or have a second location in the core?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    If not Colours, perhaps Delta Art Supplies.

  16. #116

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    There are a number of art supplier retailers (one just off whyte whose name I can't remember and seems to be the go to for all my artist friends) in the city that would fit in a spot that was hosting a large group of artists. Would be nice if there was some funky gallery spaces/art exhib that came along with this.

  17. #117

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    Here's the "Picasso" Tower in Toronto. I think their tower was just named as such. It's not geared towards artists. I feel there are slight similarities in the design cues between the arts hab and picasso...


    Picasso Tour by Marcanadian

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    The Toronto tower is far superior in design than the gulag being planned for Edmonton.

  19. #119

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    that TO tower is sexy as all get up. rawr

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    Artists Quarters goes to rezoning on Monday
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...st-a-hairdryer
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  21. #121
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    Artists Quarters in downtown Edmonton given green light by council
    http://globalnews.ca/news/2947527/ar...ouncil-monday/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Good news

  23. #123

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    Fantastic synergies on the way. Very glad to have this so near the "Arts District."
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Still missing funding from the Province and the Feds (although sounds like they are on boardish). $8 million from the city committed, the rest to come from other levels of Gov't.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ight-1.3769549

  25. #125

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    I like the project, but I do not like the building at all. They could pain the old remand centre and build out the podium with similar end results (exterior-wise).
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Interesting. Judging from the rendering it will encompass the 2 story brick building on the corner as well.

    Hopefully provide more customers for the Won Ton restaurant next door
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

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    Am I the only person who thinks this kinda looks like the old remand center?

  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamantium View Post
    Am I the only person who thinks this kinda looks like the old remand center?
    Nope, look two posts above yours and I say the same thing!
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Hahaha that's hilarious! I should have actually read the posts above! Touche Chmilz...

  30. #130
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    Well if this gets built it will be another major leap forward for this area. I really hope that one or two more proposals come forward for this area.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  31. #131

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    From what I understand, there is enough pent-up demand for about 2 or 3 more arts habs this size...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  32. #132

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    I find something ironic about an arts building looking dull.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  33. #133

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    ^

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ...

    Should have excellent heat performance, but I hope the first thing the residents do is repaint the exterior themselves...
    ...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  34. #134

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    Arts-Drab
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    It looks affordable. I'd prefer artists be able to afford the walls they live in so they can buy supplies and pursue their work.
    Last edited by Stevey_G; 21-09-2016 at 11:33 PM.

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    I'm all about that. I remember when artistic communities lived in ancient (but respectable and clean) apartment blocks. And then the yuppies (this is dating myself) thought these places were quaint and priced the artists out of their housing.

    I prefer not to agonize about architectural splendour. Artist run buildings develop their own aesthetic after a certain amount of time of habitation. (Until the yuppies or hipsters drive them out again. Lather, rinse, repeat.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    It looks affordable. I'd prefer artists be able to afford the walls they live in so they can by supplies and pursue their work.
    Very true, Bohemians are not defined by their architecture but by their state of mind and lifestyle.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

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    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    I agree.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    Or palaces for billionaire sports franchises.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

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    Subsidized housing isn't necessarily a bad thing. In this case; it gets people into a community and incentivizes developers to build a few shops here and there. Not saying it'll work every time. But sometimes an area needs a kick in the financial ***

  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    Or palaces for billionaire sports franchises.
    This argument again?

    Arena: City owns the land and the building, and OEG is paying rent for decades to use it. Edmonton is the landlord, but OEG is paying for maintenance and upkeep. This is a publicly owned asset.
    Arts-Hab: Wants to be heavily subsidized by the public, but will not be owned by the public. This is not a publicly owned asset.

    Both will supposedly help revitalize their respective areas. However, the arena revitalized the surrounding blocks to the tunes of a few billion in investment. I wouldn't bank on Arts-Hab creating any direct new investment at all. In fact, I believe Hyatt has done all the lifting here.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    hmmmm. maybe try thinking. thinking is a tool the human brain uses to gather knowledge - and understanding comes from gathering knowledge over time. in this case, you should try it for at least 10 minutes per day to start, and then slowly increase that number. be careful though - doing it too much right away may cause injury, and we wouldn't want you to hurt yourself now.

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    Just what I would expect, a personal attack instead of a reasoned response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Just what I would expect, a personal attack instead of a reasoned response.
    it's not an attack. attacks contain offensive or dated adjectives. i'm merely suggesting a solution that could help you with your problem.

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    What's the model of filling this place? I mean, what criteria does one have to meet to live here? Seems kind of wishy washy.

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    /\ DTRobotnick, you're so full of it your eyes are brown.
    Have you got a reasonable response or just more of your written diarrhea?

  48. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    I agree.

    I pay for far more things that I don't use than either of you guys.

    You give me back my tax money for your Henday, and i'll give you yours back from this.

    Deal?

    Ha ha. Didn't think so.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    This argument again?
    Not it wasn't an argument, more along the lines of rhetorical sarcasm since it would appear that Ralph is implying there is no value in supporting artists. I support the city's financial involvement in the arena since it is a critical part of our entertainment infrastructure much as I believe that a vibrant cultural and arts community is an important aspect of what a city offers to those living in it.

    I'm not sure whether you are arguing that the city should actually own the Arts-Hab building rather than subsidizing it. Personally I see no long term value in the city in actually owning the building if private money pays more most of it, it will leave money on the table to support other artistic endeavors.

    Governments often give grants and subsidies to artistic and cultural agencies and organizations and receive no actual physical assets in return. I see this as an indirect subsidy to the artistic community.
    Last edited by norwoodguy; 23-09-2016 at 02:24 AM. Reason: grammar
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    I agree.

    I pay for far more things that I don't use than either of you guys.

    You give me back my tax money for your Henday, and i'll give you yours back from this.

    Deal?

    Ha ha. Didn't think so.
    Transportation infrastructure is public infrastructure, it's not mine any less than it is yours. This is private housing. I can't use it. Massive difference JayBee. If you feel like they should be subsidized, you should donate to their cause. I have - I give money to Rapid Fire. But I don't think the public should be paying for it via taxes.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  51. #151

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    ^ you think that's unanimous, don't you?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Norwoodguy, You state that " it would appear that Ralph is implying there is no value in supporting artists."
    I believe in supporting artists, the city's policy on putting aside a portion of building cost for art is a smart one. (I think it should support local or maybe Canadian artists but that is a different argument.)
    I think though, that building a residence for the lucky few who get in, is not an efficient or cost effective way to promote art.
    They are asking for $millions, that, in my opinion is money that would be better spent on art commissions.
    The best way to support artists is to buy art.

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    Apparently, this project is not merely a residence but will incorporate work/living spaces. I agree that simply underwriting residential facilities for a minority of people is not a good use of public funds. I'm a bit more approving of the provision of artist communities where artists can mingle their life and art. It's a bit like building students residences. Also, I think creating a community of artists that are not directly connected to the university might allow the development of art that is not "academic". At the time I lived in Saskatoon, most artistic endeavors were a product of the University and it told on what we were able to see (as in, a lot of it was works that copied each other and which reflected the preferences of faculty members).

    I don't believe that the artists are being allowed to live rent (purchase) free. I would be curious as to what the financial arrangements are going to be. But I do see this in much the same light was public support for athletics.

  54. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Apparently, this project is not merely a residence but will incorporate work/living spaces. I agree that simply underwriting residential facilities for a minority of people is not a good use of public funds. I'm a bit more approving of the provision of artist communities where artists can mingle their life and art. It's a bit like building students residences. Also, I think creating a community of artists that are not directly connected to the university might allow the development of art that is not "academic". At the time I lived in Saskatoon, most artistic endeavors were a product of the University and it told on what we were able to see (as in, a lot of it was works that copied each other and which reflected the preferences of faculty members).

    I don't believe that the artists are being allowed to live rent (purchase) free. I would be curious as to what the financial arrangements are going to be. But I do see this in much the same light was public support for athletics.
    I am fine with affordable housing, but what guarantees will be in place? Otherwise, this is just a public government funding a private (for profit) developer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand why I should have to pay for somebody else's housing just because they choose to be an artist.
    I agree.
    I'm the person who first proposed what became "ArtHab", during the Downtown Plan Review in the 90's. The first one went in in the building I lived in.

    Everywhere I'm familiar with that has addressed artist housing in this manner has seen real estate values in the surrounding area go up as the area becomes more vibrant and "hip". It seems a lot of people want to live in the area. Artists have been partly responsible for turning around many downtrodden areas.

    Here is how it has usually worked. An area is depressed and run down. Low rents are the attraction for the artists who move in (104 st downtown). The area turns around, real estate values, and rent, goes up, and artists are forced out of the area they were partly responsible for improving.

    One reasoning behind my proposal was that the artists who were responsible for turning around an area should have some stake in it's future. Everybody wins.

    Artists bring a lot to an area, and to a city's culture. And, if they are able to survive, to a city's economy. Just about every product you can think of has value added by an artist of some sort.

    There's nothing stopping any other group from organizing and making their case the way I did. But I'm thinking artists contribute more to vibrancy than, say, accountants.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 26-09-2016 at 05:11 PM.
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    And let's not forget that this project is not just about housing; it's also about venue space for Rapid Fire Theatre, Mile Zero Dance and the Alberta Craft Council.

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    My impression also is that the building is going to be at least partially self-sustaining through the rents that the residents will pay and the businesses in the podium.

    And I agree with you about the transition of neighborhoods from quirky, fun places into very expensive places that actually drive out the populations that made the areas desirable in the first place. I've seen this happen several times. Older, affordable buildings are torn down because they are considered "dumps" by the people moving in. They're replaced but by new, shiny businesses that can only be afforded by people with a tried and true formula for success or high margin businesses. The off-the-wall artists, the knick knacks, the lower priced antiques and the yarn shops have to move out along with many of the more interesting residents (like playwrights, jazz musicians, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    My impression also is that the building is going to be at least partially self-sustaining through the rents that the residents will pay and the businesses in the podium.

    And I agree with you about the transition of neighborhoods from quirky, fun places into very expensive places that actually drive out the populations that made the areas desirable in the first place. I've seen this happen several times. Older, affordable buildings are torn down because they are considered "dumps" by the people moving in. They're replaced but by new, shiny businesses that can only be afforded by people with a tried and true formula for success or high margin businesses. The off-the-wall artists, the knick knacks, the lower priced antiques and the yarn shops have to move out along with many of the more interesting residents (like playwrights, jazz musicians, etc.).
    The science of urban development stems from debates that came out of New York in Years past. Edmonton doesn't have much excuse for tearing down old buildings unless they're unsafe considering the mass of vacant lots we have. It's not like developers are strained for land. Our situation is unique and we need to start holding onto these paid for and cheaper oldies.

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    Jimbo, if artists residences increase surrounding property values so much then you should get neighboring land owners to support you.
    As for public money, if you look at this as subsidized housing, there are lots of people more deserving of subsidies than artists. (disabled, elderly, veterans....)
    If you look at this as support for the arts, there are a lot better ways to support art than cheap housing for a select, small group of artists.
    Good for you to have sold city council on this concept but I see it as a diversion of funds that should go to support actual art, not subsidize a few lucky artists lifestyles.

  60. #160

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    So no hypocritical takers on giving my "Henday Donation" back to me.

    Enjoy your Henday, Ralph, I paid for it. Just for you.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  61. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    So no hypocritical takers on giving my "Henday Donation" back to me.

    Enjoy your Henday, Ralph, I paid for it. Just for you.
    Apples. Oranges. My taxes pay for schools that kids I don't have won't use. They also pay for hospitals I don't regularly visit. However, those are public spaces open to all. Sally Sculpter's private residence is not.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  62. #162

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    How exactly do I as a non-driver access the Henday? Should I go walking on it?

    I also have no kids and can't remember the last time I visited a hospital.



    You're avoiding the question.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    So Jaybee, you never consume any products brought by truck on the Henday? Nobody who ever visits you travels on it?
    You're totally self-educated so nobody else paid school taxes when you were in school?
    You're also immortal and will never use health care?
    wow

  64. #164

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    ^ why would I care which road the truck uses?

    The road system is overbuilt, and costing double by creating sprawl. Billions more than it needs to. Proven. Known.

    But go ahead, arrogantly take it for granted and condemn miniscule projects like this instead. I know you like your free roads, Ralph.

    You're so welcome.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Does anyone know how much actual public money is being used for this project? I don't include the sponsors because they are allowed to use their money for what they want. Ditto, the charitable donors. I don't expect it would be very much in comparison with what is spent promoting professional sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Does anyone know how much actual public money is being used for this project? I don't include the sponsors because they are allowed to use their money for what they want. Ditto, the charitable donors. I don't expect it would be very much in comparison with what is spent promoting professional sports.
    25 million would be public money. The rest from sales.

    The price tag on the project is $63 million.

    While the city is putting up $8.3 million, the arts groups are counting on an additional $8.3 million from each of the federal and provincial governments.


    The rest of the funding is to come from the sale of the units, 20 of which will be affordable housing.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ight-1.3769549

    Fairly proportionate with Rogers if you include EAC contribution, cash, and ticket surcharge in what Katz contributes. A bit higher proportion from the public on Rogers, albeit at a much larger number. However, you can't really compare a project like this to Rogers when making a decision. It needs to be looked at on its own merits and compared to projects that are similar in nature.

    Regardless, from the sound of it, not all units will be affordable housing in this building. Sounds like the $25 million covers those units, while the rest of the units, anyone can buy.
    Last edited by Moodib; 28-09-2016 at 10:42 AM.

  67. #167

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    The amount spent on professional sports (if that's innuendo for the arena) is about 1/20th what we've spent on Ralph's free Henday.

    If anyone wants to know why their tax rates are up and they have even the fewest unwashed brain cells left, it's pretty obvious this project is not where they should be pointing their long fingers.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  68. #168

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    The arena is a city-owned facility on city-owned land. OEG pays rent to use it and is paying all maintenance and upkeep. You know, sorta like any other owner/tenant business. Explain again how the Arts-Hab is comparable? The public will pay a chunk of it, but gets no public benefit.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The amount spent on professional sports (if that's innuendo for the arena) is about 1/20th what we've spent on Ralph's free Henday.

    If anyone wants to know why their tax rates are up and they have even the fewest unwashed brain cells left, it's pretty obvious this project is not where they should be pointing their long fingers.
    Still apples and oranges since both the Henday/Arena are funded from different government levels. As I said before, it isn't applicable to this discussion, so you guys need to move on.

    This project; however, is funded the same amount, from municipal, provincial, and federal governments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The amount spent on professional sports (if that's innuendo for the arena) is about 1/20th what we've spent on Ralph's free Henday.
    No, it wasn't innuendo for the arena.

  71. #171

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    ^^ Apples being "things you like" and oranges being "things you don't like?"

    We're all taxpayers to all three levels of government.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^^ Apples being "things you like" and oranges being "things you don't like?"

    We're all taxpayers to all three levels of government.
    You're over simplifying it and you know it.

    I'm not going to get into the discussion as to why here though. Open a new thread in off topic and link us there if you want to continue the discussion.

  73. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The arena is a city-owned facility on city-owned land. OEG pays rent to use it and is paying all maintenance and upkeep. You know, sorta like any other owner/tenant business. Explain again how the Arts-Hab is comparable? The public will pay a chunk of it, but gets no public benefit.
    When did I say the arena was comparable (or not)?

    I neither know what your point is supposed to be, nor to whom you're speaking.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  74. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The arena is a city-owned facility on city-owned land. OEG pays rent to use it and is paying all maintenance and upkeep.
    We pay Katz to manage "our" arena what he pays in rent, plus $2M/year for "advertising" the city without any say in how that money is spent, making his annual contributions roughly zero while taking 100% of the profits made in the build. The money he "contributed" to the building's construction itself was largely funded by the profits he made in selling the land for the arena to the city (but we had to sell him back the land for the casino at the cost we bought it). Also, only minor upkeep & maintenance is OEG's responsibility, major maintenance & upkeep is the provenance of the City. Oh, and who decides whether something is major or minor? The tenant.

    The arena deal is economically one of the most one-sided deals in the history of lopsided funding of pro-sports arenas in North America. Touting it as an example of public funding done right requires "Emperor's New Clothes" levels of cognitive dissonance.

    E: Ignore italicized sentence (I'd strike it through but that's no longer available on the forums)
    Last edited by noodle; 29-09-2016 at 09:45 AM. Reason: E: Retracting claim.
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  75. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^^ Apples being "things you like" and oranges being "things you don't like?"

    We're all taxpayers to all three levels of government.
    You're over simplifying it and you know it.

    I'm not going to get into the discussion as to why here though. Open a new thread in off topic and link us there if you want to continue the discussion.
    I'm discussing that Arts Hab is deserving of tax dollars and doesn't need to apologise for it. I do not need a different thread.

    Every business and individual in existence is subsidised in different ways, but there are some people who perhaps feel overly entitled.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  76. #176

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    ^^Fair points. At the end of the day, the public still owns the land and the facility, which have tremendous value. That will not be the case for the Arts-Hab. The public will be putting in a good share, with no return whatsoever. That's even more lopsided.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  77. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    The amount spent on professional sports (if that's innuendo for the arena) is about 1/20th what we've spent on Ralph's free Henday.
    No, it wasn't innuendo for the arena.
    Just saying "if it were, it would be the basis for my rough calculation (not including iterations.)"
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^^Fair points. At the end of the day, the public still owns the land and the facility, which have tremendous value. That will not be the case for the Arts-Hab. The public will be putting in a good share, with no return whatsoever. That's even more lopsided.
    What is the return for building the Henday?

    That we get more suburbs which also don't pay for themselves?

    Well?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  79. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^^Fair points. At the end of the day, the public still owns the land and the facility, which have tremendous value. That will not be the case for the Arts-Hab. The public will be putting in a good share, with no return whatsoever. That's even more lopsided.
    The return on investing in the arts doesn't have to be "dollars in the pocket" to still be worthwhile.

    The economic impact of the arts extends beyond jobs created and other direct and measurable benefits. If anything, the indirect economic benefits of a robust arts and culture community might be more important, as a vibrant social climate, which includes a well-funded arts scene, is key to attracting top businesses and top talent.
    http://albertaventure.com/2010/09/re...ts-in-alberta/
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    it's sad that some people have reduced themselves and others to just "taxpayer." but you can't discuss what's valuable with a religion in which money is god

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle
    The money he "contributed" to the building's construction itself was largely funded by the profits he made in selling the land for the arena to the city (but we had to sell him back the land for the casino at the cost we bought it).


    The first claim in that sentence is false. Katz sold the arena land to the city for the cost of acquisition.

  82. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle
    The money he "contributed" to the building's construction itself was largely funded by the profits he made in selling the land for the arena to the city (but we had to sell him back the land for the casino at the cost we bought it).


    The first claim in that sentence is false. Katz sold the arena land to the city for the cost of acquisition.
    That doesn't jibe with what I've heard, but I'll happily retract it if you can back up your side. Got a link?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  83. #183

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    ^ He's correct, and anyone familiar enough with the process to criticise it should have remembered without needing a link. Or were you not familiar enough with it to criticise it?

    Back to ArtsHab.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    That doesn't jibe with what I've heard, but I'll happily retract it if you can back up your side. Got a link?
    It was specifically mentioned in a recent news article summarizing the whole process. I believe a Journal article. Can't seem to find it in a quick bit of Googling. In any case, I'm not the one making the initial claim here. You are. The City purchased the land from Katz for 26.5 million, which is supposedly what he purchased it for initially. I look forward to you backing up your claim that he paid less to acquire it in the first place.

  85. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^^Fair points. At the end of the day, the public still owns the land and the facility, which have tremendous value. That will not be the case for the Arts-Hab. The public will be putting in a good share, with no return whatsoever. That's even more lopsided.
    The return on investing in the arts doesn't have to be "dollars in the pocket" to still be worthwhile.

    The economic impact of the arts extends beyond jobs created and other direct and measurable benefits. If anything, the indirect economic benefits of a robust arts and culture community might be more important, as a vibrant social climate, which includes a well-funded arts scene, is key to attracting top businesses and top talent.
    http://albertaventure.com/2010/09/re...ts-in-alberta/
    I agree. And we got that return in spades with the arena, which the public owns. It also included huge commissioned art pieces. Which supported the arts.

    I'm a big fan of art, artists, and what they do. However it's important that we ask what the point of throwing money at it is? If we want to support art, shouldn't the city buy art? Is there an ROI on this? We invest in businesses of all types hoping for ROI (AIMCo). What is the ROI here? Is this the best way to get it? I'm not convinced it is. Will a struggling artist find success and then move out to make room for the next upcomer? Will we end up with a building full of bead-necklace hippies that can't make a buck selling their junk at the farmer's market?

    Somehow I doubt that those with talent really need a subsidized housing project. My personal feeling is this will be a home for the hacks. The "bucket drumming buskers" of the art world.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  86. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    It was specifically mentioned in a recent news article summarizing the whole process. I believe a Journal article. Can't seem to find it in a quick bit of Googling. In any case, I'm not the one making the initial claim here. You are. The City purchased the land from Katz for 26.5 million, which is supposedly what he purchased it for initially. I look forward to you backing up your claim that he paid less to acquire it in the first place.
    Oh totally, burden of proof is on the claimant. I just thought you might have a link handy. I'll check my stuff when I get home. I've got archives of stuff saved offline, my bookmarks & links are all dead after however many CMS changes at the newspapers & TV stations in the intervening years. Either way he got a pretty cherry deal. I'm not gonna pull this farther off topic.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Funny how things work, the National Arts Centre is looking for $25 million to start an endowment fund to support arts projects.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment...aign-1.3780767
    This is how I like to see arts money spent.
    Chmilz, I don't necessarily see Arts Hab as a place for hacks, it would probably be a good thing for arts in the city. I just don't think it's a good enough thing to deserve millions of tax dollars.

  88. #188

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    ^ in terms of revitalising The Quarters, it is absolutely the best form of subsidised low-income housing we could ask for. Rather than the burden that many of the other forms present, this one will spur further revitalisation.

    Furthermore, which City are you even talking about? The one where this is being built? Or the one where you pay taxes yourself?


    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    The city I pay taxes to is in Alberta, Canada. This project is looking for some of my money that goes to both of these.
    Also, as soon as Edmonton renounces matching funds from either of these entities, I will stop commenting on how Edmonton wastes my money.
    And are you saying that the disabled, elderly and veterans are a burden on their neighborhoods?

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    ^ a suburbian's opinion of how money should be spent in a struggling inner city area. please... bestow more of your wisdom upon us.

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    Dtrobotnik, I know that you're capable of the occasional rational thought. I see them on Plenty of Fish, they're desperately seeking companions.

  92. #192

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    Let's not kid ourselves: if we subsidized the building of a Pearl-quality tower and sold it below market rates to wealthier people, you'd see a Starbucks and shiny new dental offices open tomorrow. If this is about revitalization, why don't we do that? I simply don't see how a building full of artists will inherently change the area better or worse than a building full of anyone else, and why we should bend over for artists instead of some other group?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    That's actually an idea worth exploring. Developers would be way more interested in an area that is seeing an influx of yuppies with money than one filled with struggling artists.

  94. #194

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    Further thought: are we even lacking artists? Or are our existing artists lacking customers? You have a building full of people spending $15k/yr + hospitality to watch guys play 40 games of hockey right down the street. How many of them have a $15k art collection? Maybe 5%? I doubt even that many. Our artists don't need subsidized housing, they need people to just buy their stuff. Helping them market their wares would do far more than just relocating them to a different home on the taxpayers dime.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  95. #195

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    Excited for this to happen.
    Last edited by JayBee; 29-09-2016 at 02:03 AM.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  96. #196

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    I think in an area like this it makes complete sense to focus on artists first, as they far more likely to take a chance on a neighbourhood 'in transition' than yuppies would. Once the artists are here yuppies will almost certainly follow (see the evolution of Whyte as a perfect example)
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    I think in an area like this it makes complete sense to focus on artists first, as they far more likely to take a chance on a neighbourhood 'in transition' than yuppies would. Once the artists are here yuppies will almost certainly follow (see the evolution of Whyte as a perfect example)
    To what end, though?

    That is kind of how Williamsburg went down, and now it costs $9k/month to rent in some spots. You're not wrong though; that is usually how gentrification occurs. Going on a lot further east in Brooklyn. So many good examples there of how it happens. Within Edmonton, 104th Street is probably similar on a much smaller scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    I think in an area like this it makes complete sense to focus on artists first, as they far more likely to take a chance on a neighbourhood 'in transition' than yuppies would. Once the artists are here yuppies will almost certainly follow (see the evolution of Whyte as a perfect example)
    To what end, though?

    That is kind of how Williamsburg went down, and now it costs $9k/month to rent in some spots. You're not wrong though; that is usually how gentrification occurs. Going on a lot further east in Brooklyn. So many good examples there of how it happens. Within Edmonton, 104th Street is probably similar on a much smaller scale.
    Edmonton isn't the climate for that kind of revitalization. However; simply having buildings filled with people will incentivize surrounding areas to build up into things like coffee shops, retail outlets, and restaurants.

    I think it's a small amount of money to invest into developing an area to bring larger amounts of tax revenue in. Low risk for high reward.

  99. #199

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    [QUOTE=Moodib;792232
    That is kind of how Williamsburg went down, and now it costs $9k/month to rent in some spots. You're not wrong though; that is usually how gentrification occurs. Going on a lot further east in Brooklyn. So many good examples there of how it happens. Within Edmonton, 104th Street is probably similar on a much smaller scale.[/QUOTE]

    Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think gentrification is a universally good thing (in fact, quite the opposite in many cases), but I just meant to point out that it often happens in a similar pattern.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

  100. #200

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    Going back to the 2008 discussion on The Quarters, I still don't see how it's "Gentrification" if the "neighbourhood" is 80% parking lots. The dominant form of urbanisation is clearly more like "de-surface-parking-lotification."
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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