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Thread: Snow and the city Streets

  1. #201

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    They came through my alley with... hell, I don't know what it was, but it smoothed out the center part so cars wouldn't bottom out.

    ...except the sides where the wheels went were now completely putty rather than hard packed snow like they were before, making it even worse than when there was that huge dump of snow. The worst part is, this is the alley I've bragged about plowing before, so it didn't even need to be smoothed out. Why the **** would they even mess with it

    No, I'm not bitter that I had to push my car out at 2 AM after coming home from work. No, I'm not bitter that the resulting knee injury resulted in me getting home when I should be waking up to go to school.

  2. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by accountingsucks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Perhaps if you dropped the city is always doing everything wrong mantra that you carry around, others might be more delighted to share in your views.

    You gleefully ignore the fact that this city is under a record snow fall. You seem to think that this snow fall amount is something we regularly get. We have had more snow fall in 15 days than we normally do all year. But yet, here you are crying foul...

    Give it a rest. Get your parked vehicle off the road so maintenance crews can clear your street when they can get to it.

    (By the way, there is south terwillegar, and Terwilligar south. They are 2 different areas... Check the ASP/NSP of the city...)

    For the amount of snow we have got in the last 2 weeks, I think the city has done a really good job of keeping the main roads passable.

    If I was dicator though, I would've shut the city down for 2 days after that large dump and had a snow route ban, allowing crews to get as much work done as quickly as possible before sending everyone back to work.

    It was quite the snow fall after-all, it will take awhile to clean up.
    Uggghh, I keep hearing about this "record" snowfall. The two back to back (+ all the other snowfall in January) was not a record snowfall, not even close really for the month of January. Yes, it's more snow then we have seen in awile but well within the realm of what could happen in a winter city. Also, we get on average 123.5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton - see 1/3 of the way down) cm of snowfall per year so the 50-60 we have gotten this month is nowhere near the "normal we get all year" you proclaim. I'm actually somewhat grateful for it as perhaps we can get meaningful improvements to the snow removal here as it is an issue EVERY SINGLE FREAKING YEAR!!!. Also 5000 calls is an enormous # of calls. How many people are upset and don't know where to call? How many don't drive. Yes there are 750K people, but the number of households is maybe 200K. 2.5% of the population calling to complain IS statistically significant. People are upset and they should be given the poor job the city has done.

    No sense in arguing with Med.

    If the city dumped snow right on his house he'd be okay with that.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    As per CBC Edmonton's Facebook page, we had 46 cm of snow up to January 17 or 37% of our yearly snowfall average. We usually get about 20 cm a month (0.67 cm/day) compared to 2.71 cm/day this year, with most of it coming over the last week or so. So in fact, it is a record snowfall as we have only had more in 4 other years in 40 (and we are less than 2/3 through the month).

    Other Big Snowfalls in January as per CBC:

    A snow update from CBC Edmonton Meteorologist Stephanie Barsby: at the Edmonton International airport so far January 2011 has recorded 45.6 cm (as of 11 PM, Jan 17).
    I looked back at the month of January as far as 1970 and here are some other big January snowfalls months.....
    1999 with 46.6 cm
    1994 with 80.4 cm
    1982 with 71.7 cm
    1974 with 61.2 cm
    1971 with 55.9 cm
    So by these numbers what it tells us is that we get such a snowfall about one in six years. Hardly a rarity and again not a record

  4. #204

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    Thanks Hilman for the information and putting this snowfall into perspective.
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    No problem PRT, I found the stats interesting.

    Accountingsucks this is the most snow in January (46 cm in only 17 days) in 16 years, which means it is a rarity.

  6. #206

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    QUOTE=Medwards;344052]Perhaps if you dropped the city is always doing everything wrong mantra that you carry around, others might be more delighted to share in your views. That's not true! Are you stalking me?
    Constructive criticism is the way of a democracy.

    You gleefully ignore the fact that this city is under a record snow fall. You seem to think that this snow fall amount is something we regularly get. We have had more snow fall in 15 days than we normally do all year. But yet, here you are crying foul... Never said that anywhere. You are making this up! p.s. I am not gleeful about this at all!

    Give it a rest. Get your parked vehicle off the road so maintenance crews can clear your street when they can get to it.

    I don't have any vehicles on any roads nor do my neighbours. Stop making things up!

    (By the way, there is south terwillegar, and Terwilligar south. They are 2 different areas... Check the ASP/NSP of the city...)
    Clever!

    For the amount of snow we have got in the last 2 weeks, I think the city has done a really good job of keeping the main roads passable.
    So... there is no problem now or last year then?

    If I was dicator though, I would've shut the city down for 2 days after that large dump and had a snow route ban, allowing crews to get as much work done as quickly as possible before sending everyone back to work.

    It was quite the snow fall after-all, it will take awhile to clean up.

    Not everyone who disagrees with you is your enemy.
    ...It could be you're just plain assed wrong.
    Last edited by Old Dawg; 21-01-2011 at 12:21 PM.
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    No problem PRT, I found the stats interesting.

    Accountingsucks this is the most snow in January (46 cm in only 17 days) in 16 years, which means it is a rarity.
    Thanks Hilman, those are interesting. Where did you find them. I looked all over environment Canada's site but the historical weather never seemed to include total snowfalls.

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    It took me awhile to find, it was a post on CBC Edmonton's Facebook page of all places.

  9. #209
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    What a bunch of whiners.

    Paul (or Hilman), I assume the CBC stats came from environment canada here:

    Climate Normals 1971-2000

    Daily Weather Station Results

    The interesting thing about the Weather Station results is the variance across the region. Stony Plain showed 70cm on the ground a few days ago, with the Int'l at 51cm and the Muni at 47cm. In terms of snowfall this month Stony Plain shows 80cm versus 56cm at the Int'l and 23cm at the Muni.

    And now back to the whining.

  10. #210
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    what's the big deal? i don't find the roads any worse than previous winters. the windrows are higher, but that's about it. on my commute, i find the roads to be in worse condition in strathcona county rather than edmonton. odd since the gold-paved roads in sherwood forest are supposed to be heated. maybe that's only under the dome.

  11. #211

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    The Government has issued a travel warning due to the cold weather.


    They suggest that anyone travelling in the current icy conditions should make sure they have the following:

    Shovel
    Blankets or sleeping bag
    Extra clothing including hat and gloves
    24 hours worth of food
    De-Icer
    Rock Salt
    Flashlight with spare batteries
    Road Flares or Reflective Triangles
    Empty gas Can
    First Aid Kit
    Booster cables


    I looked like an ***** on the bus this morning!
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  12. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I looked like an ***** on the bus this morning!
    Hahahaha! Yeah, you pretty much need all of that just to get to the bus stop

  13. #213
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    Richard Craniums at the Capital Centre just finished dumping tones of snow into the curb lane on 109th
    Frickin idjits!!!
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

  14. #214

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    On 109th st south of Jasper, they took away the snow from the outside lanes and left the center windrow. The windrow is so wide that portions of the left turn lanes are only 5 ft wide.

    There are many places where lanes just disappear, are narrowed or all full of brown oatmeal snow including YH, WGD, James Mac Bridge etc.
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  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    The Government has issued a travel warning due to the cold weather.


    They suggest that anyone travelling in the current icy conditions should make sure they have the following:

    Shovel
    Blankets or sleeping bag
    Extra clothing including hat and gloves
    24 hours worth of food
    De-Icer
    Rock Salt
    Flashlight with spare batteries
    Road Flares or Reflective Triangles
    Empty gas Can
    First Aid Kit
    Booster cables


    I looked like an ***** on the bus this morning!
    Love it! Way to go Gemini!
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  16. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    On 109th st south of Jasper, they took away the snow from the outside lanes and left the center windrow. The windrow is so wide that portions of the left turn lanes are only 5 ft wide.

    There are many places where lanes just disappear, are narrowed or all full of brown oatmeal snow including YH, WGD, James Mac Bridge etc.
    Honestly, What exactly are they supposed to do with it until they can cart it away? Move the snow as much as possible off the road until all the roads are reasonably clear. Then, they can start to clear the windrows left behind...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ the city claims every street was plowed in December...
    Well that's complete BS. Windsor Park is still waiting from the big snowstorm in December and the neighborhood still isn't on the list of up and coming neighborhoods expecting to be cleared, despite paying some of the highest taxes in the entire city.

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    No problem PRT, I found the stats interesting.

    Accountingsucks this is the most snow in January (46 cm in only 17 days) in 16 years, which means it is a rarity.
    It is irrelevant that it is a rarity. I remember those years, and the roads were never this bad, or this poorly managed. I'm not talking windrows, either. Just general plowing of the roads.

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    You specifically remember the road conditions in 1994 hey, give me a break.

  20. #220

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    So after my injury, I'm thinking about how I'm going to be adjusting to the next week/month without walking. It has come to my attention that there's no way it is even possible for me to reach my bus stop by crutches or wheelchair. The giant windrow from the plows are the first obstacle, then the only ramp to access the little raised island the bus stop is on is currently being used to as a place to store snow. My neighborhood also isn't really full of people who enjoy clearing their walks, and I'd have to go about two blocks through patchy unkempt walkways to even get to the area where I'd need to climb a windrow to get to the bus stop.

    ...does anyone have suggestions :\ I'm really at a loss, and I have to take the bus, nobody is available to drive me and I can't drive myself.

  21. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    You specifically remember the road conditions in 1994 hey, give me a break.
    I remember what is like driving and walking in my neighbourhood in 1994, absolutely, because I was heavily pregnant at the time. Coincidentally, I was on those same streets this morning. At that time, there were no huge ruts in the streets. Now, though those streets are secondary streets and have a large volume of traffic, they are bumpy and barely drivable.

    I also remember the huge snowfalls in the 1970's and 1980's, when I was walking to school or taking a bus to high school/university. I remember walking a half mile through bitter winter winds, on a plowed street, from my parents, to the bus to the U of A, in 1987/88/89. I remember driving those streets at 2 am, after being out, and seeing plows and big trucks full of snow in my neighbourhood. I also remember when the city implemented three day parking bans on snow routes. So yeah, you can believe what you want, I've lived here most of my life and I recall the past.

    The last time my car was stuck, prior to the 2000's, when it became common, was in 1982, in an alley opposite my parents' house. Two teen aged boys pushed me out of the snow.

    I was a driving a 1981 Dodge Omni, and that car, which I drove through the 1980's, was never stuck in snow again. I never had an accident in that vehicle either, despite being a young driver.

    I now drive a far more substantial vehicle, with much better winter tires, and getting stuck is not uncommon, the most common place is backing out of my driveway.
    Last edited by Halo; 22-01-2011 at 03:42 AM.

  22. #222
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    Edmonton has had over 80 cm of snow up to January 21 or 65% of it's yearly average (123 cm). This is 21 days out of the 180 day (or more) snowfall season, resulting in it being the most snow in January in over 40 years. Guess what, we still have 10 days to go and it's still snowing, so much for the "it's the same as when I remember" and "it's not a rarity" comments. Sounds like a record to me, too bad most of you on here sound like a broken record. Sorry for the update, let the whining continue......
    Last edited by Hilman; 22-01-2011 at 07:41 AM.

  23. #223
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    Snowfall at least double normal amount: Meteorologist

    According to CTV's weather desk, the city's current snow pack is closing in on a record set in 1974.

    The distinction comes after more white stuff buried Edmonton Saturday, just days after a storm system dumped an estimated 35 centimetres of snow.

    According to official measurements taken at the Edmonton International Airport, there is a precipitation depth of 38 cm. Meteorologist Richard Ozero says that's more than double the amount of snow compared to normal, with the long-range average for mid-January pegged at close to 17 cm.

    Ozero points out Edmonton's record for this time of year is 43 cm, which was recorded 37 years ago. He adds that season ended up being an overall record-breaker, with the highest-ever snow pack marked at 81 cm on March 18th.

    http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=EdmontonHome



    Sounds like the 90's were a breeze Halo, your memory looks to be a little snowy lol.

  24. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Guess what, we still have 10 days to go and it's still snowing, so much for the "it's the same as when I remember" and "it's not a rarity" comments. Sounds like a record to me, too bad most of you on here sound like a broken record.
    It's a well-known fact in the field of statistics (and psychology) that people remember the past better than it was; there's an entire branch of statistics (Reference Class Forecasting) devoted to correcting this bias when researchers are asking people about their impressions of the past.

    Specifically, it has also been found that those under little political pressure (e.g., the common citizenry: us) face the Optimism Bias, that is, "a cognitive predisposition found with most people to judge future events in a more positive light than is warranted by actual experience." With this snow-ploughing debacle, people are inclined to think, "Oh, the snow was much worse in my day, and we managed to get it ploughed in less time!! All this snow could be ploughed by tomorrow if the City just had its act together!"

    Fortunately for us (at least in this scenario), it has also been found that the minds of people who are under political pressure somehow ignore the optimism bias: so, all the folks working for our City whose job it is to assess what resources ought to be put to snow removal, they're all probably thinking, "WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THESE PEOPLE?? WHY ARE THEY WHINING?? ISN'T THIS THE CITY OF CHAMPIONS?? I'VE WORKED HERE THIRTY YEARS AND WE'VE NEVER DEALT WITH THIS MUCH SNOW IN SO LITTLE TIME!! GAHH!!"

    So, yeah. Unfortunately, optimism bias is a form of unconscious self-deception, so even when we know we're susceptible to it, we can't accurately correct our emotions and memories. That's where we turn to something that can't be biased, such as the hard-numbers that Hilman has presented to us. Now, if we can all put aside our "memories" of the past (and their associated emotions) and look at how much snow we've actually had in so little time, we can all realise that, yes!, the City is dealing with more than it's dealt with in coming-on four decades.


    (As a post scriptum to those interested, this psychological phenomenon is why so many of us can experience an unexpected disappointment when we find something we remember fondly from our past…that painting you made in Grade III that was so awesome that you couldn't find for years and now you just found it? Yeah, looks pretty bad, dun it? That really cool YouTube video you wanted to show someone but oh, you can't find it now, but you tell that someone it was so great…and then when you finally find it and show it to them, you're embarrassed at how not-quite-cool it ends up being? Yeah, that's optimism bias at work, though in colloquial situations such as the aforementioned, it's usually called rosy retrospection).
    Last edited by ut_libet; 22-01-2011 at 11:47 AM. Reason: typo
    Ut libet.

  25. #225

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    When I was your age, we had twice as much snow. We had to walk up hill both ways. When we got a big snow storm like this, the city used to plow it right away. Of course, when I was your age, Edmonton was only 300,000 people, and didn't sprawl from here to kingdom-come.

    Edmonton has changed a lot since yesteryear. We have lower population densities, and more roads per person than any other metropolitan area in Canada. No wonder it takes so long to plow all the roads. No wonder it costs so much money. We are victims of our own self. We have chosen this path of life, these are one of the cons. Those who want better snow removal should move to a main road or bus route, and for those that want to remain in their cul du sac of 6 houses, remember that your road is the lowest priority for the city to clear.

  26. #226

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    True, we are victims of bad planning and sprawl. I don't live in a small cul de sac. Still, there are many, many things that could be done to improve snow removal, and all those who are making excuses have done so for the past five years and will do so for the next five. What is the definition of insanity? . . .

    As for suggesting I remember things in a way they did not exist, I am not revising any memories, and I find the suggestion that I am too stupid or nostalgic to remember the past as it truly was by a bunch of yahoos who don't know me personally extremely condascending.

  27. #227
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    Condescending? The facts don't support your memories, face it, this is the most snow in one month that we have had in over 40 years.

  28. #228
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    Can someone please start a photo thread for 2011's record snowfall? I don't live in Edmonton anymore, but I like to stay abreast of current events in my hometown. I'd love to see everyone's pics of their snow piles and neighborhood roads.

  29. #229

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    Our neighborhood still not plowed.

    I was doing some snow cleanup with the windrows in front of our house. Impossible with only a shovel, BTW, and suddenly I saw a truck from Alberta highway services stopped in front of my house and coming from the other direction was an ambulance and firetruck.

    The fireman came to the guy in the AHS truck and said he got "stuck" several times trying to get to a house where they may have to "save a life". hmmmm......

    Yep. City doing a great job. Now the emergency vehicles can't do their job because of Mandel's incompetence as a mayor concerning snow removal.

    But he's really bent on spending money on the Indy and new arena. That's more important than saving lives.

    If that person dies, I hope the family sues Mandel and everyone involved in the transportation department.

    I now officially hate this city.


    There I said it.

  30. #230
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    You do know that Mandel is one voice of 13 and it is up to city council right?

  31. #231

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    Then he needs to strap on a pair and be a man by running this city.

  32. #232
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    Yes, that's exactly what he needs to do

  33. #233

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    You know what, Hil?

    If it were your family member waiting for an ambulance and they can't get through because of these conditions and their life depends on it, you wouldn't be so flip about it.

    And you didn't read my entire post. I said Mandel and the transportation dept.

    But Mandel makes the ultimate decision, otherwise why would he be called "Mayor"?

  34. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Condescending? The facts don't support your memories, face it, this is the most snow in one month that we have had in over 40 years.
    Ah, yes, the facts do indeed support my assertions. This situation has been the same for more than half a decade, and not every winter was like this one.

    Two weeks ago, the roads were as bad as they are now. There have been no bans on parking on any streets. You are, indeed condascending. If you enjoy driving on rutted major thoroughfares, great for you. I don't, and I expect more in city services.

  35. #235

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    How is it your neighborhood isn't plowed but you have a windrow? The city won't be taking residential roads down to pavement. They will blade it to a 5 cm base.

  36. #236

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    was plowed from the first major snowfall. nothing since. After the major fall the snow kept piling on the original windrow.

  37. #237

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    What major throughfare is rutted? Most of the main roads ar clear save for a bit of slush. Why is it I can drive any where in this city with all seasons on but a select few whiners have realized this is a winter city and adapted their driving skills...

  38. #238

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    Emergency vehicles getting stuck is not a big deal to you then.

  39. #239

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    You would think if it was a common occurrence it would be all over the media... It's not.

  40. #240

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    it doesn't have to be common. It doesn't have to happen at all.

    Again. If it were your family or you (touch wood), I doubt you would be saying "oh well" about it.


    Doesn't matter. I think there's problem. Lot of people think there are problem, and some people think everything's fine.

    Que Sera Sera.

  41. #241

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    I don't think everything is fine. I believe we've had a record snow fall, and the city is doing a pretty good job cleaning up, despite mother nature hitting us several different times during the clean up efforts.

  42. #242

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    Major arteries, absolutely.
    Residential neighborhoods? Still an issue.

    I didn't have any problems today despite the roads being slushy, but took it easy between parked vehicles.

    But when you see an ambulance or fire truck trying to respond to an emergency and can't, it's not something you ever think about until it does become a problem.

  43. #243

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    87 Avenue is a major thoroughfare that is badly rutted between 149 and 163 Streets, or was as of yesterday. I am equally tired of the pollyanna boosters who believe any criticism of poor service is "whining".

  44. #244

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    don iveson just posted: Just got word: given the warm conditions, the City will start grading residential roads to bare pavement as of 7am tomorrow. (Blading not working.) Park off street. Prepare for windrows.

  45. #245

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    No doubt when I saw the AHS employee in our neighborhood, he probably made a call to make sure we were on the list.

  46. #246

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    Yes we had a lot of snow but it also was stretched over many weeks, not just in one storm. They only started hauling snow away in the past week, knowing that more snow was coming. They should have started hauling snow two weeks ago before things got out of hand and had nowhere to plow the stuff.

    The real test is to compare private parking lots to city roads. It seems that businesses kept on top of the job and most parking lots at malls, stores and commercial & industrial businesses are well plowed and cleaned.

    I took this picture on 63 ave and 102nd street at about 11 am Saturday the 22nd. One lane is just used to store snow and even the bus stop was not ploughed in a week. Notice the sidewalk as well



    Whitemud Ramp West Bound at railway tracks (102 avenue)
    Lane not plowed (about 1 meter wide Jan 22 2011



    90th Street at 127th Avenue
    Windrows piled high and close to road that makes entering intersection dangerous.
    Jan 21 2011
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-01-2011 at 01:02 AM.
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    I wouldn't call two weeks, many weeks. Has the snow clearing been great, no, adequate, yes, especially considering it has broken a more than 40 year record of monthly snowfall.

  48. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    90th Street at 127th Avenue
    Windrows piled high and close to road that makes entering intersection dangerous.
    Jan 21 2011
    This looks exactly like what I'm dealing with near where I live, the snow is piled up from the intersection to around my bus stop (cleared immediately around it). I have no idea how I'm going to get to work or school now.

  49. #249

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    The back alley was lightly graded earlier in the week, and then the melt came which made things very difficult.

    On Thursday and Friday evening when folks were coming home I pulled-out seven vehicles with my quad, and another three Saturday morning.

    The sad part is a neighbour who lives near the end of the street was pushing out his wife early Saturday afternoon and had a major cardiac incident. Apparently the ambulance had a difficult time getting to the scene. The paramedics thanks to their heroic efforts ran most of the way down the alley to reach him. Currently, he's on life-support and the family is weighing a very difficult decision.

    We're acquainted with the family, but not terribly close.

    These winter tragedies happen every year in Edmonton, it sure becomes poignant when it's in your neighbourhood.

    I wish, I would've been home to help pull them out. I wish it didn't melt. Unfortunately, life is not fair and rarely is. The best we can do is offer support and compassion regarding their family.

    This is not a blame-game nor things of a litigious nature. Please be very careful out there and if you see someone who needs help, do what you can or able to do, even if it's just a phone call.

  50. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wilson View Post
    The back alley was lightly graded earlier in the week, and then the melt came which made things very difficult.

    On Thursday and Friday evening when folks were coming home I pulled-out seven vehicles with my quad, and another three Saturday morning.

    The sad part is a neighbour who lives near the end of the street was pushing out his wife early Saturday afternoon and had a major cardiac incident. Apparently the ambulance had a difficult time getting to the scene. The paramedics thanks to their heroic efforts ran most of the way down the alley to reach him. Currently, he's on life-support and the family is weighing a very difficult decision.

    We're acquainted with the family, but not terribly close.

    These winter tragedies happen every year in Edmonton, it sure becomes poignant when it's in your neighbourhood.

    I wish, I would've been home to help pull them out. I wish it didn't melt. Unfortunately, life is not fair and rarely is. The best we can do is offer support and compassion regarding their family.

    This is not a blame-game nor things of a litigious nature. Please be very careful out there and if you see someone who needs help, do what you can or able to do, even if it's just a phone call.

    Frank, the similar situration happened yesterday.

    The victim is about 4 doors from my house. When the Ambulance and Fire truck arrived, they experienced the same problem. Uncleaned roads and lots of parked cars on the street. I noticed a snow machine in the front of their house which suggests the victim was cleaning the snow when it happened.

    I am truly disgusted with the city. I started noticing the snow problems since the days of Bill Smith when that ***** ran this city.

    Ever since, Edmonton has been suffering a rapid decline in how a city should run.

    People who are true pro-Edmonton are the ones who see clean streets in front of their house because they live near the bus route or they don't live in a residential neighborhood.

    Don't even get me started on the construction.........

  51. #251

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    perils of the lifestyle choice you make fore living in sprawlsville. Reality sets in. Hey my roads are being cleared super pronto.

    Understandably, the city has higher priorities for snow clearing. Your low use residential road gets cleared last. Order: 1) River Valley routes and other hill roads 2) Major arterties and main roads 3) bus routes and collector roads 4) Your street.

    Each time it snows, we start back @ # 1.

  52. #252

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    How many Edmontonians live in in those "Low Use" Residential neighborhoods?

  53. #253

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    too many... and we keep building more... and its going to keep costing us more and more (exponentially). We seriously need a green belt built around the existing build up areas of the city, and confine growth inwards, if we have any hopes of solving issues like this. Bring up the tax base on the existing infrastructure. Bring up the service levels. It's going to take some creative thinking, but it has to happen one way or another. There is no way we can continue to push out low density sprawl and expect service levels to remain high and our taxes low.

    The more sprawl we build, the more low-use roads have to cleared.... clearing low use roads is very expensive and time consuming.

  54. #254

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    We have problems.

    I know that this snowfall is no comparison to all the others previously, but we do have problems every year.

    What bothers me is that people say that if you don't want to get stuck drive a 4x4.
    If you don't want to get stuck, live in an apartment building where your roads will be cleared.

    I have lived in the same house since I was a toddler, so there should be no reason to move or sell my house because of the lack of maintenance me and the rest of my neighbors experience. We like where we are. It's quiet, private and no traffic.

    But, we do pay property taxes higher than most and it seems unfair that we don't get what we "pay for". That's how I see it.

    But....

    When I hear from people who just moved here and they advise me that they came from a city where snow gets cleared immediately, I second guess why we can't do the same?

  55. #255

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    Actually, we pay some of the lowest property taxes for a major city in Canada...

    Here's the thing - we haven't done snow clearing so well in the past. This year, we looked like we would do better, until we got this record dump.

    It's clear the city doesn't have the proper resources to deal with a major dumps like we've had.

    Had we had our regular seasonable average snow, I'm sure the city would've done a great jump.

    There is no snow in the forecast, and all the major routes/bus routes/main roads are all clear (maybe theres a half lane blocked off due to piles... here and there) the city will now go into all residential areas, and clear to the pavement.

    Expect windrows.

    Those people coming from other cities... No where in Canada do they have the amount of paved roads per person than we do. We have more paved roads per person than any other city in Canada. It takes us longer, and more money and effort to clear all our roads than anywhere else, per person. Go figure. And here we have people wanting to build more and more sprawl...
    Last edited by Medwards; 23-01-2011 at 10:37 AM.

  56. #256

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    More than, say Toronto? Winnipeg? Calgary?

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    Definitely more than Winnipeg and I would say more than Calgary. Toronto has much warmer winters with the snow melting much faster (snow doesn't build up). Edmonton has over 11,400 km of roads, how long do you expect every km to be finished in?

    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...e-control.aspx
    Last edited by Hilman; 23-01-2011 at 12:03 PM.

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    Seems Calgary has a policy that residential streets are plowed after 12 cm of base, ours states it will be done after a snowfall and after major roads are complete to a base of 5 cm.

    Calgary Policy
    http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/...2010_TP004.pdf

    Edmonton Policy
    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/C409F.doc

  59. #259

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    for anyone curious:

    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/C409F.doc
    Winter Maintenance Programs (within city limits)

    Roadway Sanding:
    • Crews will be on duty at all times from mid October to mid April to provide sand/salt mixture to meet weather conditions.

    Roadway Plowing:
    • Plow snow from all arterial and bus routes within 48 hours following the end of a storm to achieve bare pavement.
    • Plow snow as required from roadways (other than arterial roadways and bus routes) carrying in excess of 1500 vehicles per day, roadways abutting schools, emergency access routes, and roadways abutting property zoned RF5-RA9 inclusive.

    Residential Blading:
    • In any given snow event , a city-wide residential plowing program will be initiated ( including Alleys ) immediately after the Arterial and Collector road network has been plowed and considered to be in safe condition. Residential Roads will be bladed to a 5 cm snow pack condition.
    • When rutting or snow drifting occurs residential roadways will be bladed to maintain a level, snow pack condition.


    Page 2 of 3

    • Service level will only involve the blading of snow. Windrows (less than 30 cm in height) left behind blocking driveways will be the responsibility of the adjacent property owner. Windrows (more than 30 cm in height) left behind will be cleared as to not block driveways.
    Snow will not be hauled away.
    • Notification of residential blading or plowing will be announced through the media. A parking ban will not be used.
    • Plowing to bare pavement on residential roads may be initiated at the discretion of the City Manager. Bare pavement shall include:
    o All driveways, crosswalks and corners will be opened.
    o Where windrows of snow are created they will not be hauled away.
    o In cul de sacs snow will be stacked in the centre and hauled away.
    o Alleys are not covered under city-wide bare pavement policy

    Snow Removal:
    • Remove snow from business districts as required.
    • Remove snow from arterial roadways and bus routes when the driving width or parking area restricts safe vehicular movement.
    • Remove snow as required from roadways (other than arterial roadways and bus routes) carrying in excess of 1500 vehicles per day, roadways abutting RA9 when the driving width or parking area restricts safe vehicular movement.

    Sidewalks:
    • Plow snow from sidewalks adjacent to city owned land within 48 hours to meet the requirement of Community Standards Bylaw #14600.
    • Snow will not be hauled away.

    Snow Storage Site Management:
    • Snow removed from arterial roads, bus routes, and private parking lots must be hauled to snow storage sites to meet Environment Canada and Alberta Environment guidelines and Codes of Practice outlined in the Salt Management Plan.

    Spring Clean-Up:
    • Annual removal of all street sand from entire paved road system placed during winter months. Street sweepings must be disposed to meet environmental guidelines set by Alberta Environment.

    Street Sanding Recycling:
    • All street sand collected shall be washed and recycled for re-use.

    Salt Management Plan:
    • Report to both Alberta Environment and Environment Canada annually on road salt usage and road salt management. Meet Codes of Practice established by Transportation Association of Canada and adopted by Environment Canada.



    Page 3 of 3
    Roadway Priority Hierarchy

    Priority I
    River valley hills, all bridges, grade separations, freeways.
    Business Areas: C.B.D. (City Business Districts – Central, Southwest, Northwest, Northeast, Southeast)

    Priority 2
    Arterial Roadways

    Priority 3
    Collector I Roadways

    Priority 4
    Collector II Roadways

    Priority 5
    Rural Roadways:
    Priority 6
    Residential
    Alleys
    Last edited by Medwards; 23-01-2011 at 12:20 PM.

  60. #260

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    Interesting info Med.

    My favorite is the policy on the height of Windrows. the Major bus route in my area clearly shows the windrows well above 30 cms. actually more than 100 cms which is roughly 3 feet of windrows.

    I guess that policy should be changed.

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    We all hear how great Winnipegs snow removal is, seems their newspapers have the same comments with people getting stuck, streets not plowed, etc. Winnipeg gets 110 cm of snow a year versus our 123 cm, this January we already have 84 cm (76% of Winnipeg's YEARLY snowfall).

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...110080504.html

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...110080504.html

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bre...110781749.html


    Calgary
    http://my-complaint.com/calgary-hit-...int-avalanche/
    Article states Calgary has 14,000 km of roads and clears 8,000 km of them compared to Winnipeg's 3,300 km of roads (we clear 11,400 km of roads). Seems Calgary had 1,100 complaints in one weekend, maybe we all have similar issues and the grass is always greener?

    http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=CalgaryHome
    Calgary MLA praises Edmonton snow removal, much better than Calgary's.

    http://www.globalregina.com/D%C3%A9j...239/story.html
    Calgary residential streets non-drivable.

  62. #262

    Default snow pack

    I my view, it would be better to leave the snow pack in the alleys as they are and not grade them.

    Very seldom are they graded to the pavement and the snow is not removed, just pushed aside, which either becomes packed again by people using their driveways or it's shovelled back into the alley. Not many people will remove it to the sides. Also, some people simply do not have room to pile the snow due to fences, fifth-wheels, garbage stands, sheds, etc.

    Of course, things do become more difficult when the alley becomes a slurpee in the spring with the pack melting. And it likely would not matter if the alley was graded or not.

    I would prefer to leave the alleys alone and divert that resource to other areas.

  63. #263

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    I never mention Calgary's snow problem. I already knew that.

    I am thinking about Edmonton's snow problems. And of course Calgary is going to say that Edmonton is better. Calgary's snow budget is lower than Edmontons, but they don't get nearly as much as we do.

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    On CTV News last night, Calgary MLA Lindsay Blackett said that Edmonton does a better job of snow removal than Calgary.

    http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=CalgaryHome
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  65. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    On CTV News last night, Calgary MLA Lindsay Blackett said that Edmonton does a better job of snow removal than Calgary.

    http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...ub=CalgaryHome

    I hate to say this, but that statement really doesn't prove much.

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    ^ It could be a provincial issue, which gives me a Great Idea! Check it out:
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...d.php?p=344676
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    But Mandel makes the ultimate decision, otherwise why would he be called "Mayor"?
    How could someone be so clueless as to how municipal governments run? (or any form of politics that function using the vote of the MAJORITY to make decisions)

  68. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    But Mandel makes the ultimate decision, otherwise why would he be called "Mayor"?
    How could someone be so clueless as to how municipal governments run? (or any form of politics that function using the vote of the MAJORITY to make decisions)

    Snide insults will not be well received.

    Since you claim to be such an expert, why don't you tell me what Mandel's role as Mayor is.

    you have my undivided attention.

  69. #269

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    he is chief executive officer. His vote is equal to the 12 other board members.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    Snide insults will not be well received.

    Since you claim to be such an expert, why don't you tell me what Mandel's role as Mayor is.

    you have my undivided attention.
    Sorry, that was uncalled for... I just find it shocking that anyone would think that a Mayor, a Premier, or a Prime Minister in this country is the ultimate power and that anything they demand happens. Yes, they can have incredible influence because of their position, but their vote doesn't count for anything more than anyone else's vote on city council, in the legislative assembly or in parliament.

  71. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    Snide insults will not be well received.

    Since you claim to be such an expert, why don't you tell me what Mandel's role as Mayor is.

    you have my undivided attention.
    Sorry, that was uncalled for... I just find it shocking that anyone would think that a Mayor, a Premier, or a Prime Minister in this country is the ultimate power and that anything they demand happens. Yes, they can have incredible influence because of their position, but their vote doesn't count for anything more than anyone else's vote on city council, in the legislative assembly or in parliament.

    No problem.

    I probably think like many others in Edmonton when it comes to who makes the ultimate decisions.

    Mandel believes in the beauty that is Edmonton. We need a mayor like him. Reminds me of Mayor Decore a little in how he supported our city. I think we have been soured by the leadership that was Jan Reimer and Bill Smith in the late 80s and 90s. I will admit, I was quite impressed with the snow maintenance last year, however, this year was a true test of his leadership skills concerning Snow Removal, but people have made it sound like he's failed.

  72. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadzia2000 View Post
    Interesting info Med.

    My favorite is the policy on the height of Windrows. the Major bus route in my area clearly shows the windrows well above 30 cms. actually more than 100 cms which is roughly 3 feet of windrows.

    I guess that policy should be changed.
    That policy defines windrows left in front of driveways, all other places there is no limit to the heights if windrows


    My beef is this line

    Snow Removal:
    • Remove snow from business districts as required.
    • Remove snow from arterial roadways and bus routes when the driving width or parking area restricts safe vehicular movement.
    • Remove snow as required from roadways (other than arterial roadways and bus routes) carrying in excess of 1500 vehicles per day, roadways abutting RA9 when the driving width or parking area restricts safe vehicular movement.
    You go downtown and on the top of McDougall Hill on 100th Avenue right in front of the MacDonald Hotel, the City left a windrow 8 ft wide covering the entire inside lane of 100th Ave NB and it also narrows the SB lane.

    76th Ave east of 91 street is so narrow that all eastbound traffic (6,000 vehicles per day) cars and ETS buses must straddle the yellow line and cannot move for oncoming traffic. This condition is dangerous and has existed for at least two full weeks.

    Update
    11:45 pm
    They just started plowing the east portion of 76 ave. They have to come with the blower twice because the windrow is so huge.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 24-01-2011 at 12:46 AM.
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  73. #273

    Default

    Oops. You're right. i just read that again.

    I know that people were complaining about jasper avenue and its ruts last week.

    My bus was having problems down fox drive as well because of uneven roads.

  74. #274

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    There's too many "rule makers" and not enough shovellers.

    Had to push out a Peace Officer and his 1 ton "city leased truck" yesterday. (Sunday)
    ... he was in the neighbourhood following up on pet animal licenses.

    I got stuck in his ruts this morning trying to get to work!

    My street is still not plowed after 18 days.
    Wasn't done last year either!

    Is there a huge disconnect between City hall and Admin?

    I'm trying to separate the obsfucation from the "truth" here.

    p.s. The ruts are so deep now you can't turn your wheels out of them!
    What if there is a fire or worse?
    Last edited by Old Dawg; 24-01-2011 at 04:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dawg View Post
    There's too many "rule makers" and not enough shovellers.

    Had to push out a Peace Officer and his 1 ton "city leased truck" yesterday. (Sunday)
    ... he was in the neighbourhood following up on pet animal licenses.

    I got stuck in his ruts this morning trying to get to work!

    My street is still not plowed after 18 days.
    Wasn't done last year either!

    Is there a huge disconnect between City hall and Admin?

    I'm trying to separate the obsfucation from the "truth" here.

    p.s. The ruts are so deep now you can't turn your wheels out of them!
    What if there is a fire or worse?
    At this point I think they're working as fast they can with the resources they have. The problem is that the city does not have the equipment to do the job faster and money can't make that equipment appear out of thin air.

    More entertaining will be all the people complaining about the size of the windrows that will be left along the residential streets once the city grades them to pavement. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be able to see the street anymore.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    I've been trying (mostly with success) to be patient and acknowlege that we've had a LOT of snow and spread out over two weeks.

    But now I hear the City has changed its mind about residential streets and will scrape down to the pavement after all.

    Didn't this happen just a year or two ago, where we tried this remove down to 5 centimetre strategy at a cost of $millions, only to have to go back and do it all a second time because "it got warmer than we expected?"

    Having failed miserably at considerable cost a second time, my question is, has this strategy ever worked and why do we keep trying it?
    ... gobsmacked

  77. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dawg View Post
    There's too many "rule makers" and not enough shovellers.

    Had to push out a Peace Officer and his 1 ton "city leased truck" yesterday. (Sunday)
    ... he was in the neighbourhood following up on pet animal licenses.

    I got stuck in his ruts this morning trying to get to work!

    My street is still not plowed after 18 days.
    Wasn't done last year either!

    Is there a huge disconnect between City hall and Admin?

    I'm trying to separate the obsfucation from the "truth" here.

    p.s. The ruts are so deep now you can't turn your wheels out of them!
    What if there is a fire or worse?
    I got stuck twice yesterday, had to help a guy today and now my steering is acting strange. I don't even live on a side street, it's a busy road.

  78. #278

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    My buddy bought a tow rop. She said it's the best investment she has made this year. She has pulled a few people out and other people have used it to pull her out.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    I think the problem some of us are having with how the city is approaching their snow clearing strategy is that there are some neighorhoods, such as where my in-laws live in Millwoods, that have been cleared three times now, twice down to the five cm base, and then a third time to the pavement. Other neighborhoods such as Windsor Park where my parents live, haven't been cleared once yet. And the neighborhoods around the U of A don't just see local traffic, they see hundreds and thousands of people who work or go to school in the area, or who are patients in one of the many medical facilities.

  80. #280

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    ^My daughter lives within a couple of blocks of The Cross Cancer Hospital. Her street has not been touched at all. The back lanes are an even bigger nightmare. The main roads seem to be O.K.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^My daughter lives within a couple of blocks of The Cross Cancer Hospital. Her street has not been touched at all. The back lanes are an even bigger nightmare. The main roads seem to be O.K.
    Yep. That's what I mean. Why do these areas get abandoned when it comes to snow clearing in the winter and spring cleaning in the summer? Just because these neighorhoods are residential, doesn't mean they don't get a ton of commuter traffic that should really only be driving on the main arterial roads such as 87 Avenue, Groat, Saskatchewan Drive, 76 Ave, 114 Street. Unfortunately, these roads get extremely backed up during rush hour, especially when traffic slows down due to winter road conditions such as narrow or even non existent lanes due to windrows. As an area of the city that has one of the highest traffic volumes, it really deserves better care and attention from the city than some suburb neighborhood like the one in Millwoods I mentioned earlier that see maybe 1/500th the traffic the areas around the U of A do.

  82. #282

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    I read that emergency vehicles were getting stuck in residential neighborhoods trying to respond to emergencies over the weekend.

    Um.....

    so, now that it's hit the media, any chance we might see the roads bladed?

    I know my street still not cleared. The majority of homeowners have not cleared their sidewalk and now there's icey spots in front of their house.

    It's looking like a lost cause.

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    The City said all residential roads would be done to the pavement a few days ago and should take 7 days.

  84. #284

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    Ugh I was 1 day late after the snowfall. And i was 'reported'

    I wish the neighbour who had enough time to file a formal report would have had enough time to come see me face to face to resolve the issue. Passive aggressive ugh
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  85. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I think the problem some of us are having with how the city is approaching their snow clearing strategy is that there are some neighorhoods, such as where my in-laws live in Millwoods, that have been cleared three times now, twice down to the five cm base, and then a third time to the pavement. Other neighborhoods such as Windsor Park where my parents live, haven't been cleared once yet. And the neighborhoods around the U of A don't just see local traffic, they see hundreds and thousands of people who work or go to school in the area, or who are patients in one of the many medical facilities.
    Maybe you should clarify, what part of Mill Woods. There are plenty of neighbourhoods there that haven't been done any better than Windsor Park. Just as there are neighbourhoods in the university area that have been done quite well.

    Perhaps your in-laws live near someone with influence at the city!
    Edmontonian and proud of it!

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    MacEwan here.

    MacEwan Road (bus route) and 119 St. and that's it, nothing else.

    Yes, the stick firetruck story was on CTV Edmonton tonight - finally the poop hits the fan.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  87. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    MacEwan here.

    MacEwan Road (bus route) and 119 St. and that's it, nothing else.

    Yes, the stick firetruck story was on CTV Edmonton tonight - finally the poop hits the fan.
    That story with pictures was on Global dinnertime news last night. Pretty sad when emergency vehicles can't manuever down residential streets.

  88. #288

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    priceless...
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  89. #289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post


    priceless...

    I think the paper said it was in the blue quill area.

    It's funny that I made a post some posts earlier about the problem with my neighbor and now this is big news today.

    hmmmm

    unfortunately, I haven't heard anything about my neighbor, but it looked like he was clearing snow when it happened. I don't know the details.

  90. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    The City said all residential roads would be done to the pavement a few days ago and should take 7 days.
    Right. The schedule up to and including January 28 is out, and my neighbourhood isn't even on the list.

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    My neighbourhood wasn't either and guess what, they just did them

  92. #292

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    Well, good for you.

    I won't hold my breath. Our neighbourhood was supposed to be plowed this weekend to yesterday, but is now off the list.

    We tried to clear the road near our driveway when the snow softened, with no success. The ruts are so high now, there are places that, no matter what I do, the bottom of my vehicle scrapes some snow pack. Residents parked off the streets, anticipating some level of minimal service.

    There was a good article in The Journal today about how other municipalities deal with this. St. Albert did so partly by getting equipment on the road very early. Ottawa even takes care of municipal streets! Edmonton could learn from both of them.

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    I rather not learn from St. Albert as their taxes are usually twice as much.

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    My ave (99) has been well taken care of this year and our alley was done for the 3rd time in recent weeks and is almost down to pavement. I have to commend the City snow removal downtown this year.

    Mind you, last night I had to help push 3 people out of front streets in Central Mc within an hour. The City does need to prioritize for multi-family areas such as those with higher traffic and limited on street parking. Both the alleys and streets were almost impassible.

    I would like to see, other than main and bus, that we work from the inside out... a nice message and nod to those who live centrally.
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  95. #295

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    The problem with that approach is it doesn't necessarily work from an economic perspective, on several levels.

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    and sprawl does?
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  97. #297

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    Take it to city planners. It is what it is. Residents of those "sprawling neighbourhoods" pay the same amount in taxes as you do. And, my neighbourhood is not part of that "sprawl". It's been here for about 40 years.

    St. Albert's snow removal budget is slightly less than half that of Edmonton's. That, in and of itself, is part of the problem.

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    ... and their taxes are...
    www.decl.org

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  99. #299

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    Their taxes are higher, but it is not all budgeted to snow removal. Part of the reason for the higher taxes is a total absence of an industrial tax base.

  100. #300
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    47,263

    Default

    ^yes yes i know.

    Winnipeg's budget is 25mil
    Ottawa's with far more annual snow is 65mil

    Is it that we are not getting the best value for our removal $ or that our labour rates etc. are simply and once again out of whack due to the economy here?
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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