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Thread: Crosswalks

  1. #1
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    Default Crosswalks

    Am I the only one who thinks that crosswalks in this city are ill-conceived and are placed in a haphazard fashion?

    First of all, I am both a pedestrian and a driver, so I am tackling this from both sides of the coin. As a pedestrian, I've lost count of the number of times I've nearly been hit by a car in unlit X-walks. As a driver, I've lost count of the number of times I've nearly hit a pedestrian in an unlit X-walk because I'm unable to see why that big truck in the lane to my right is stopped.

    Why is there no standard configuration? There are red-light X-walks, amber-light X-walks and unlit X-walks. I say stick to only one of these, so both drivers and pedestrians know what to expect. I'd choose the amber-light ones. Unlit ones are dangerous, while red-light ones seem to needlessly stop traffic in many cases.

    Why are there unlit X-walks going across 6-lane roads? There's a couple on Gateway Blvd, and some others going across Kingsway.

    Why are there unlit X-walks just a half-block away from fully traffic-lighted intersections? Best example is the one going across 109 St just a few steps north of Whyte.

    Why is it that everytime some moronic jaywalker is hit by a car, the city's solution is to put in yet another unlit X-walk?

    So, put in only amber-light X-walks and only put them where they make the most sense.

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    I agree. I don't like the red-light crosswalks as either a pedestrian or a driver. As a pedestrian, you push the button and wait. As a driver, the pedestrian crosses the road and is halfway down the block before the light turns green. The amber flashing lights are much faster. As a pedestrian, you push the button, wait a few seconds to make sure the approaching drivers are slowing down and cross the street. As a driver, you stop for the pedestrian then go once your lane is clear. Faster all around.
    The only place where the red light crosswalks should be used are places where there are very high volumes of pedestrians. Under these conditions, amber lights can create a constant stream of pedestrians that hold up traffic for extended periods of time.

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    This is a great rant...and a suggestion for a C2E column. Volunteers?

    This issue is really enhanced on Jasper Avenue. Pick a poison already, these unlit x-walks are going to get someone killed. Daily I see near misses...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Unlighted crosswalks are DANGEROUS. Especially the one by Joey Tomato's. A couple of months ago, while I was eating at the Sicilian Pasta Kitchen with my sister and my mom, I noticed that someone was hit by a car while trying to use that crosswalk, so there were emergency vehicles surrounding that spot.

    And yes, it's incredibly easy to actually not notice there's a pedestrian just about to cross on of these.

    For this reason, I usually never use any unlit crosswalks at night. I'm also not very fond of red-lighted crosswalks like the one at 117 St and Jasper. Jeez, you end up WAITING, and it does tend to encourage jaywalking rather than discourage it. I kid you not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeK
    Unlighted crosswalks are DANGEROUS. Especially the one by Joey Tomato's.
    This is the most dangerous one I know of...and the one I see the near misses on daily. I am really surprised that no one gets killed there daily. Even when I am stopped, there is always some ***** not paying attention (pedestiran or car) and does not look to see whether or not someone is coming.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Wow...when I first posted this, I thought nobody cared.

    Unfortunately, Richard, it seems that the city's policy is to wait until someone is killed in an unsignalled X-walk before they decide to install amber lights. Case in point, Whyte Ave and 106 St. And to have unlit X-walks across high-traffic, multi-lane roads such as Gateway and Kingsway is completely ludicrous.

    The only fix so far is the province increasing fines for failing to yield to a pedestrian in a X-walk. But I don't think that is good enough. The way X-walks are implemented in this city must be revisited because they make no sense in the majority of cases.

  7. #7

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    The one on jasper and 113th is the absolute worst crosswalk in the city. Pedestrians have to walk out from behind parked cars and hope that someone stops. Often times you'll see people slam on their brakes trying to avoid others crossing.

  8. #8
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    I hate red light crosswalks. They last way longer than it takes for me to walk across so as I walk away, and they wait, I feel like apologising for the delay. I guess the lights are timed for the proverbial old lady, but it's just one more reason why amber is better.

    I agree that there should be no unlighted X-walks across roads like kingsway or gateway. actually, any road that has a 60km/h speed limit shouln't have them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    I agree that there should be no unlighted X-walks across roads like kingsway or gateway. actually, any road that has a 60km/h speed limit shouln't have them.
    It was posted elsewhere that the transport planning department is not living in the real world. This is ample proof. I'm convinced that they are holdovers from the Riemer/Tooker days when they wanted to force people out of their cars and skate to work.

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    I think there's a couple crosswalks on West Jasper around the Earls and I swear I almost saw a pedestrian get hit there last night. On a road as busy as Jasper Ave. there shouldn't be crosswalks there with no traffic lights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedyturtle
    I think there's a couple crosswalks on West Jasper around the Earls and I swear I almost saw a pedestrian get hit there last night. On a road as busy as Jasper Ave. there shouldn't be crosswalks there with no traffic lights.
    Correction:
    On a road as busy as Jasper Ave. there shouldn't be crosswalks there with no flashing amber lights.

  12. #12

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    I find that Jasper and Whyte are awful places to cross, both as a pedestrain and a driver. And I think a lot of the blame lies in new "safer headlights". You will hear the ads all extoll how "todays headlights are 2.5x brighter than those of of 20 years ago" and such... well that's fine when you are on a country road but not when looking into 3 lanes of oncoming traffic in a city, especially with a windshield splatered with road spray.

    You just can't see people. Doesn't matter if they are wearing light clothes, dark clothes or no clothes. Often, even if you know they are there you can't see much against the glare.

    I think for the busiest roads we need to look at something like flood lamps that shine down on the road from above and light up the whole crosswalk area when someone wants to cross.

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    I had to laugh...

    Last night, I was on Jasper and almost pegged a drunk ***** as he darted out onto the crosswalk west of the Druid... No amber lights there...

    Yet, on 116th and ~102, a boring little crosswalk and, lo and behold - AMBER FLASHING LIGHTS!!!

    Why there and not on Jasper??????
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  14. #14

    Default Crazy Crosswalks

    It is my long-held opinion that the cacophony of crosswalks in Edmonton (and region) is the number one cause of pedestrian accidents (and near accidents).

    In addition to the extreme inconsistency of design and often the illogical placement of crosswalks, most crosswalk signs are white … which is the single worst colour for a sign for six months of the year in Edmonton.

  15. #15

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    Ah, crosswalks in Edmonton, fun and games for drivers and pedestrians alike.

    My biggest pet peeve area is exiting Rice Howard Way onto Jasper (E or W). Drivers do not know that the “cute” double-red on the traffic lights means that they CANNOT turn right! Time and time again I see it happen (last week it was two cars and a police car!). I know that this is a tight corner and if there are a lot of pedestrians it can be time consuming to turn but deal people.

    Turning left (east) has its “fun” as well. Pedestrians blatantly ignore the flashing don’t walk sign and stroll right in front of drivers. Other pedestrians also ignore the do not cross at this part of the intersection sign and again stroll across—impeding traffic all the while ignorant. Drivers coming up Jasper Ave are just as clueless as they block the intersection even though it (should have been) readily apparent that there was no chance that they would clear the intersection before a light change.

    I had the unique experience of driving a rental vehicle a little while ago around Edmonton and was amazed at how bad other drivers treated me because they figured I was an out-of-towner.

    I had barely travelled two blocks when I stopped for a pedestrian. (I know this sets me apart from most drivers but hey it is my bad habit.) Something the person behind did not appreciate (or see) as they let me know with annoyed honking. At least they had the grace to look abashed when they realized that I did know what I was doing and had stopped for a reason.

    I was not so lucky during the rest of the week as I was bullied over parking spots, honked and given the finger at when I refused make an unsafe left turn because I could not see clearly enough to be sure there was no oncoming traffic (there was). Screamed at and ignored when I gestured to a driver that they were attempting to go down the wrong way on a one way street. Told to “go home and get off the road” when I was passed on Groat road doing (approximately, within the range at least!) the speed limit. I was vindicated when I saw the yahoo pulled over by “real” radar just up the road (something I had guessed may be up ahead!)

    It was interesting to see a city I know and navigate extremely well from a visitors’ perspective. Sad and scary as I realized that I was often given a “pass” for my good driving habits due to my Alberta plates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSR
    I think for the busiest roads we need to look at something like flood lamps that shine down on the road from above and light up the whole crosswalk area when someone wants to cross.
    The flashing lights at 108 and 106 Sts. on Whyte are test sites for crosswalks that have lights shining down across the entire crosswalk area. When you push the walk button you activate not only the flashing lights but lights that shine down on the road.

    The crosswalk at 109 St. and 83 Ave. is a heavily used one. It is the connecting crosswalk for east Garneau and Safeway as well as the closest pedestrian crossing for the south bound and north bound bus stops. No one is going to walk up to Whyte Avenue and then back a block. What it needs is the flashing lights when pedestrians area crossing.

  17. #17
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    Default Crosswalks

    J-walk. It's safer.

    Statistically, most pedestrians get hit in crosswalks.

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    You bring up some good points. However you are part of the problem. If that truck to the right of you is stopped then you have to stop too. That is the law. Perhaps it is time you took a refresher driving course.

    Please signal when you change lanes or turn corners. Make sure you signal your intention not your accomplishment. I know this has nothing to do with pedestrians but I'm guessing that if you don't know enough to stop alongside that truck that you are probably making all kinds of driving errors.

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    Default Jasper crosswalks

    I am also both a pedestrian and a driver and have had similar issues as others have noted - it can be difficult to see pedestrians trying to cross at 113st, especially if there is a bigger vehicle parked just before the crosswalk. As a pedestrian, I cross at 119th Street often and it is a very rare case when the first few vehicles stop. It sometimes takes a while to get noticed there and it will be worse in the next 4 months. I have noticed that the preliminary wiring seems to be up for flashing crosswalk lights there. I'm not sure how long this should take but maybe it should be considered at 112 Street as well. It will be interesting to see if flashing lights have any effect!

  20. #20

    Default Standardization and upgrading of crosswalks

    This topic has such urgency that I would like to see it kept alive as one of the many ideas collected for C2E to champion as part of the Great Ideas for a Greater Edmonton contest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    I don't like the red-light crosswalks as either a pedestrian or a driver. As a pedestrian, you push the button and wait. As a driver, the pedestrian crosses the road and is halfway down the block before the light turns green.
    Would it help if the little sign by the pushbutton informed the user to 'press and hold button until walk light comes on' and fix the control box so that the request to cross is discarded if the user leaves before the right to cross is granted?

    No more light changes forced by bored pedestrians tapping the button while passing the intersection or lights changing after the pedestrian decided it was safe to cross against the light.

    Is this done anywhere else? What would be the safety impact?

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    Somebody PLEASE get the 104 ave and 106 street Grant Mac crossing lit already! I see way too many apathetic students believing that the right of way will save them as they dart out into rush hour traffic!!!! Every monring and every evening I see people there almost meet their maker, and in the bright morning sun, guess what you squishy fleshy *****, WE CAN'T SEE YOU AS YOU RUN OUT!!!!!
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Yes. A pedestrian activated stop light would be good.

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    pressing the button should generate a noise/intermittant beep to tell users the lights are activated

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDavidson
    Yes. A pedestrian activated stop light would be good.
    Amber lights, dammit!!!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAL
    Quote Originally Posted by CSR
    I think for the busiest roads we need to look at something like flood lamps that shine down on the road from above and light up the whole crosswalk area when someone wants to cross.
    The flashing lights at 108 and 106 Sts. on Whyte are test sites for crosswalks that have lights shining down across the entire crosswalk area. When you push the walk button you activate not only the flashing lights but lights that shine down on the road.

    The crosswalk at 109 St. and 83 Ave. is a heavily used one. It is the connecting crosswalk for east Garneau and Safeway as well as the closest pedestrian crossing for the south bound and north bound bus stops. No one is going to walk up to Whyte Avenue and then back a block. What it needs is the flashing lights when pedestrians area crossing.
    The sense of pedestrian entitlement alluded to in the bolded part is incredible. By this logic every main road in Edmonton should have a signalled crosswalk on each block whereby one pedestrian could, at any moment they choose, stop several lanes of traffic and hundreds of commuters for their more considerable individual convenience.

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    If the flow of traffic is that necessary, a pedestrian bridge should be built.

  28. #28

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    Interesting thread. I second that driver training manuals need to be given a closer look and for people to revisit their driver tendencies.

    That said. The proponderence of crosswalks and frequent redundant(i.e. one block away) configurations of them leave drivers desensitized and impacted by the sheer volume.

    I agree that the notion has seemed to be add crosswalks at any risk area. I don't agree its the solution.

    But as my response above indicates I think we have raised overly entitled pedestrian expectation in this city. The expectation that they should be afforded "most direct path" convenience in blocking any main road with multiple crosswalks. The tragic irony is that this has ultimately been a bane instead of a boon for pedestrian safety whereby the sheer multitude of crossings has resulted in very inattentive modal driving patternsand in crosswalks not offering safe passage.. More is not always more.

    The comment on white regulatory signs for crosswalks in a winter city is brilliant. I'd like to add that a plethora of larger vehicles in this city has added significant visual road pollution with the resulting effect that a driver in a car no longer really see's road ahead beyond next bumper. Not to mention that a large vehicle parked legally just short of the crosswalk sign effectively blocks the view of the sign and that the snow/ice covers the rest of any visual clue that the area is in fact a crosswalk.

    That pedestrains regularly venture past visually obstructing vehicles assuming the best while not even looking either way is a very large part of problem and an autonomy not just advised, but entirely requisite for survival in living in an urban environment.

    Perhaps a bit too much is being expected of drivers and too little of pedestrians here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Perhaps a bit too much is being expected of drivers and too little of pedestrians here.
    I think so....
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    At Groat Road and 115th Ave NW I was in a Vehicle heading southbound. There is a Crosswalk there, but uncontrolled. It was quite busy and getting dark. All the traffic in the northbound lanes were still driving north and there was a large delivery truck stopped ahead in our right lane. We thought it was just stopped and or signaling but couldn't see the signal lights because of the car directly behind it. So the driver of our car just kept going and as we go t closer we realized it was a pedestrian (father holding Child) crossing.. we couldnt stop ( we tried) so just kept going. At least the pedestrian was attentive and holding their child close by. We realized the mistake and should have been more cautious before proceeding. what takes the cake was about 50 yards up one of the cars which did stop pulled up to us.. gave us the finger.. ranted and raved with his windows and our windows closed.. cut us off and then slammed on his breaks then gunned it.. smoked his tires.. and sped off. GREAT reaction....

    I drive that road quite a bit and witness similar events like this all the time. They should either make that cross walk controlled or take it out completely forcing ppl to cross at the intersection of groat and 114th ave NW...

    Oh and pedestrian bridges are unsightly metal monstrosities. I would not want to have one in my neighborhood.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xelebes
    If the flow of traffic is that necessary, a pedestrian bridge should be built.
    Well of course the flow of traffic is important. the highlevel and 109 is one of the arterials that supposedly drains rush hour traffic from downtown. Except it doesn't work well to do that.

    Traffic gets backed up all the way past Jasper Avenue and often to 104avenue. Meanwhile theres as many as 6 different lighted stops a driver could have to stop at from Highlevel bridge to Whyte ave.

    In any other city that would be viewed as irregular or excessive. In Edmonton pedestrians lobby if theres one intersection they can find in the entire 6 block length that doesn't have a lighted crossing....

    Pedestrian bridges? Not necessary.

    Less regulated stops-necessary.

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    The main problem with 109 St downtown is the High Level bottleneck, which takes in traffic from both 109 St and 98 Ave at rush hour.

    Pedestrian bridges don't work except when going across rivers or major freeways such as the Whitemud.

  33. #33

    Default A very cross pedestrian crossing

    A very cross pedestrian crossing
    Time for zombie drivers to wake up


    Paula Simons, The Edmonton Journal
    Published: Saturday, March 24, 2007


    So I'm crossing 102nd Street.

    I do it every morning and evening, walking from my car park to my office.

    There's a crosswalk on the corner. It's not the most well-marked crosswalk in town. There are no flashing lights, no bells and whistles. But there are faded white lines painted on the ground, and there is a sign with a little stick-man crossing the road. It's not a big sign. But it's there.

    I look both ways. The coast looks clear. I start across the street.

    Whizz. A car blasts past me. The driver shakes his fist. I can't hear him, but it's obvious from his twisted face that the stream of words coming out of his mouth are less than flattering.

    This time I snap.

    "It's a crosswalk!" I shout back, as the car speeds off. "It's a crosswalk."

    Why am I yelling? It's obvious the guy can't hear me. And it's equally obvious nothing good would come of it if he could. But today, I've had enough.

    Because it's not the first time this has happened. It has become commonplace. The crosswalk on the corner of 102nd Street and MacDonald Drive has got to be one of the most ignored traffic crossings in the city. You take your life in your hands every time you step into it.

    What bothers me most isn't the mere fact that people perpetually drive through "my" crosswalk without slowing down or stopping for those who are already crossing. As I said, it's not that easy to see. And I'm no vehicular saint.

    I have to admit there have been times when I, too, have been distracted behind the wheel and gone through an unlit crosswalk. But when it happens, I feel chagrined, not defensive. I make ashamed and apologetic faces. I'm mortified. I don't yell indignantly.

    What astonishes me most is the righteous fury of these drivers. I find myself horrified and amused by their impervious aura of entitlement, their outraged sense of grievance that I have had the temerity to cross their street, to impede their imperial progress.

    Or to interrupt their important phone call. Oh yes, at least three of the drivers I've dodged recently were talking on their phones. I'm pretty sure one woman never saw me at all -- she was so clearly engaged in her phone chat.

    It's been a bad week in city crosswalks.

    Last Saturday evening, 27-year-old Lawrence Daher was killed when his wheelchair was struck by a Dodge Neon. Daher and a 64-year-old woman were in a crosswalk at 34th Street and 44th Avenue. The crosswalk was marked, but it had no lights. The pair crossed the southbound lanes of 34th Street without incident. When they got the northbound lanes, one northbound car, in the middle lane, stopped to let them pass. The Neon didn't.

    The woman was hospitalized with a leg injury. Daher died of his injuries in hospital the next day.

    Then, on Wednesday morning, an 18-year-old woman was hit by a car as she crossed 118th Avenue at 82nd Street. That crosswalk wasn't just a couple of grubby white lines on the ground -- it was a full-fledged intersection with red, yellow and green traffic lights. The preliminary police reports were that the teenager was crossing legally when she was struck by a car and pinned between the car and another vehicle stopped at the lights. The young woman was taken to hospital with serious injuries to her lower body.

    The investigations into these recent accidents are far from complete. It's too soon to look for causes or patterns. But our streets do feel particularly treacherous these days.

    You're a fool if you live here and think you can just stride into a crosswalk confidently, assuming traffic will stop. We shouldn't let those faded white lines give us a false sense of security.

    Our roads are so busy, so crowded. Everyone is impatient, everyone is in a hurry. A drive that used to take 10 minutes often now takes 20. If you don't recalculate your travel time, based on the new reality of our boomtown streets, you end up frustrated and panicky.

    All the multitasking we're doing behind the wheel isn't helping. I thought cellphones in the car were bad enough, until I pulled up beside a woman who had been driving somewhat erratically beside me. I boggled when I saw she was texting on her BlackBerry while she drove.

    We've made our cars into our offices, our dining rooms, our day-care centres. We eat in our cars. We bank in our cars. We take meetings in our cars. We drive our kids around -- and around -- in our cars to put them to sleep.

    We drive in splendid isolation, on automatic pilot, fiddling with our CD or DVD players, jamming iPods in our ears, checking our e-mail, only a fraction of our attention on the road. It's as if we're so desperate for stimulation that just navigating a powerful vehicle through heavy traffic with due care and attention has become boring. We're not just distracted behind the wheel. We're avidly chasing distraction.

    We've become the land of the driving zombies. And when the undead take to the road, the results can't be good for anybody.

    It's time, folks, to wake up and watch where we're going.

    [email protected]

    --30--

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    Perhaps fences and other barriers should be installed like in European cities, to prevent pedestrians from simply running out into the road expecting traffic to stop.

    Edmonton's just too busy these days to have archaic traffic rules that give pedestrains the right of way

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    Ya know I don't really know why topics like this get so many people riled up. There is a reason a cross walk exists. It is to allow pedestrians to cross roads. There is an expectation that drivers will yield. They don't always.

    There is also good pedestrian behaviour. You do have to step onto the road sometimes to grab the attention of drivers, but as a pedestrian I am always cautious and aware of traffic speeds. I give drivers several seconds to choose if they can stop or not, before I step on the road. That is where I "signal my intention" before proceeding. I think of it as "entering the field of vision". My posture shows I mean business, and 80% of the time drivers stop, or motion me to cross. For those that don't I don't waste too much energy being angry.

    It takes two. Drivers, and peds need to be aware of their surroundings. As we grow as a City were going to need to get to "know" each other better.

  36. #36

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    True.

    There is also the issue that far too many crosswalks in this city are underbuilt.

    I mean, really, a crosswalk going across Jasper Ave at 119th St, and they can't be bothered to light it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0nkyman
    True.

    There is also the issue that far too many crosswalks in this city are underbuilt.

    I mean, really, a crosswalk going across Jasper Ave at 119th St, and they can't be bothered to light it?
    The crosswalks at Jasper and 119th and 120th should not exist.

    Most of the people that use them (at least during rush hour) are heading to the bus stops at 118th and 121st. If they actually walked all the way to 118th and 121st they would be able to cross in relative safetly at the traffic lights. Instead though, they need to shortcut across Jasper risking the lives of themselves and others.

    As a pedestrian I can't believe how desperate some people are to avoid walking one block.

    I realize that Oliver has a large population of seniors, for whom one block is a significant distance. That is unfortunate, but I don't think that having a crosswalk every 100m is the solution.

    The people that I see using those crosswalks every day before and after work are people who could walk the extra block, but choose not too because they're given an easier option.

    (and all of this also applies to the crosswalks at 122nd, 115th, and particularly 113th)

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled
    Quote Originally Posted by m0nkyman
    True.

    There is also the issue that far too many crosswalks in this city are underbuilt.

    I mean, really, a crosswalk going across Jasper Ave at 119th St, and they can't be bothered to light it?
    The crosswalks at Jasper and 119th and 120th should not exist.

    Most of the people that use them (at least during rush hour) are heading to the bus stops at 118th and 121st. If they actually walked all the way to 118th and 121st they would be able to cross in relative safetly at the traffic lights. Instead though, they need to shortcut across Jasper risking the lives of themselves and others.

    As a pedestrian I can't believe how desperate some people are to avoid walking one block.

    I realize that Oliver has a large population of seniors, for whom one block is a significant distance. That is unfortunate, but I don't think that having a crosswalk every 100m is the solution.

    The people that I see using those crosswalks every day before and after work are people who could walk the extra block, but choose not too because they're given an easier option.

    (and all of this also applies to the crosswalks at 122nd, 115th, and particularly 113th)
    ^ I used to work near the 113th crosswalk and NEVER crossed there. I would walk over to 114 or 112th always. I witnessed too many accidents and close calls to ever take the chance myself.

  39. #39
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    I agree with many of DeathMonkey's comments. Many crosswalks are very unsafe because drivers sometimes cannot see them clearly (this is not an excuse for inattentive drivers). Also, many pedestrians do not even look to see if they made eye contact with driver.

    Crosswalks should be made more visible. It makes it more difficult in the middle of night when you cannot see pedestrians walking (which is why I am a fan of flashing lights).

    Having said that, who do we complain about unsafe crosswalks or even streets?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman99
    Having said that, who do we complain about unsafe crosswalks or even streets?
    e-mail: [email protected]

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    Default Re: Crosswalks

    Quote Originally Posted by smart-water
    J-walk. It's safer.

    Statistically, most pedestrians get hit in crosswalks.
    Reminds me of a fellow I used to live near who heard that more than 80% of all accidental deaths happened within 1.5 kilometres of home - so he moved.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Crosswalks

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    Quote Originally Posted by smart-water
    J-walk. It's safer.

    Statistically, most pedestrians get hit in crosswalks.
    Reminds me of a fellow I used to live near who heard that more than 80% of all accidental deaths happened within 1.5 kilometres of home - so he moved.
    ^

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Quote Originally Posted by BDavidson
    Yes. A pedestrian activated stop light would be good.
    Amber lights, dammit!!!
    Why not flashing red lights instead of flashing amber. This forces the driver to stop and then continue. The amber lights just encourage the driver to slow down.

  44. #44
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    I wrote to [email protected] yesterday to complain about the 113th and Jasper crosswalk. I must agree, as a driver and a pedestrian, it just isn't safe.

    In London, there are pedestrian crosswalks on nearly every block with lights and all the bells and whistles. We need to make downtown more pedestrian friendly if we want any kind of sustainable street life. The spartan crosswalk that currently exists is fine for a small residential road, not for one the busiest streets in the city.

    I encourage anyone who is concerned to write in.

  45. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JZ
    I wrote to [email protected] yesterday to complain about the 113th and Jasper crosswalk. I must agree, as a driver and a pedestrian, it just isn't safe.

    In London, there are pedestrian crosswalks on nearly every block with lights and all the bells and whistles. We need to make downtown more pedestrian friendly if we want any kind of sustainable street life. The spartan crosswalk that currently exists is fine for a small residential road, not for one the busiest streets in the city.

    I encourage anyone who is concerned to write in.
    That particular intersection is one of the worst I have ever seen.

    Good comments, thank you!

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    That one is bad.

    Also bad. The one on 109ST, just North of Whyte and the one at the top of the hill at 105 St and 99 Ave.

    They are both terrible; as a pedestrian and as a driver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDavidson
    the one at the top of the hill at 105 St and 99 Ave.
    It is a stupid one as a driver because it's at the top of a very steep hill where people are speeding just to get some momentum to get to the top.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JZ
    I wrote to [email protected] yesterday to complain about the 113th and Jasper crosswalk. I must agree, as a driver and a pedestrian, it just isn't safe.

    In London, there are pedestrian crosswalks on nearly every block with lights and all the bells and whistles. We need to make downtown more pedestrian friendly if we want any kind of sustainable street life. The spartan crosswalk that currently exists is fine for a small residential road, not for one the busiest streets in the city.

    I encourage anyone who is concerned to write in.
    Thanks, I will write to Transportation to complain as well and suggest that we make Edmonton more pedestrian friendly.

  49. #49

    Default Making streets safer

    Making streets safer

    The Edmonton Journal
    Published: August 13, 2007 2:06 am


    Since six-year-old Jacob Medicoff's death on May 28, have you noticed any changes at intersections such as improved crosswalk markings or more crosswalks with lights? Have you noticed whether, since that terrible day, the Edmonton Public School Board has reviewed or changed bus routings to ensure that the kiddies get off on safer streets? Have you seen ETS move bus stops to the safer side of intersections?

    Neither have I. Just take a look at the intersection of 73rd Avenue at 83rd Street, where Jake was hit by a truck while trying to cross the street.

    This means that children in Edmonton, perhaps yours, are still at the same risk that little Jake was when he and his brother tried to safely cross the street to get home from school.

    Probably, no changes will be made to improve safety of the children unless you get up and try to make a difference. Letters to the city asking why no improvements have been made, or phone calls to your municipal leaders or the school trustees who represent your neighbourhood just might help.

    I've already written letters to the above on behalf of your kids, but obviously we need more support to get things done properly. People of Edmonton, please stand up and be counted, and get involved -- for your children's sake.

    Christopher C. Clarke,
    Jacob's granddad, Calgary


    © The Edmonton Journal 2007

    -30-

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    Default Re: Making streets safer

    Quote Originally Posted by djgirl
    Since six-year-old Jacob Medicoff's death on May 28, have you noticed any changes at intersections such as improved crosswalk markings or more crosswalks with lights? Have you noticed whether, since that terrible day, the Edmonton Public School Board has reviewed or changed bus routings to ensure that the kiddies get off on safer streets? Have you seen ETS move bus stops to the safer side of intersections?
    It wasn't the intersection.
    It wasn't the crosswalk.
    It wasn't the School Board.
    It wasn't the bus stop.

    It was the vehicle.

    In the past decade I can recall at least three other, similar fatalities; two along 118 Avenue and one at Southgate, where a pedestrian walked in front of the 'pickup' truck while the driver was looking for a gap in traffic. The high hood of the truck forms a blind spot directly in front of the vehicle where the pedestrians happened to be at the moment.

    Driver inattention?
    Pedestrian right of way?
    Intersection design?

    I can't accept any of these causes in this case.

  51. #51
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    Can't really blame the crosswalk if it is lit or not. Here every intersection is a crosswalk whether there are lines or not, lights or not, or even a bridge across. If you coming up to an intersection as a driver you have to remeber that it is automaticly a crosswalk and to watch for pedestrians. Unfortunately too many of the drivers out there have either forgotten this or do not know this. Back when I took driver ed this was pointed out, maybe that is were the problem really begins. As a pedestrian you need to take care crossing and watch for traffic all the time. Too often I have seen a pedestrian come up to the crosswalk and just continue on without any consideration for allowing traffic time to stop. The lines are not walls and the pedestrian will loose. Watch for oncoming traffic in each lane, not just the first lane.

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    Although I no longer live in the section of town Check out the cross walk by Walmart going across 137 at 38th st. I have video of drivers going through the crosswalk with people in the cross walk, and saw the results when a child was severely injured crossing at this crosswalk. Especially when the neighbourhood has been after transportation to put in a lit crosswalk. (Actually the suggestion was that Walmart should have to foot the bill as this is the usual destination, but at the very least teh Development)

    In most other cities marked crosswalks are lit with a Yellow crosswalk sign going over the whole street and pedestrian activated flashing ambers in both directions.

    But I agree with kilocar as well, the traffic regulations states that pedestrians may cross between to corners directly across from each other, and drivers must give the right of way to the pedestrian. Where a median exists the traffic must remain stopped until the pedestrian has stepped on to the median and traffic on the other side of the median must give right of way and remain stopped until the pedestrian exits the intersection.

    From the driver's handbook Page 122 and 123
    When you get out of your vehicle you become a pedestrian. When you are driving, treat pedestrians the same way you would expect to be treated if you were walking.

    * Watch for pedestrians on or near the road.
    * If a pedestrian has entered a marked or unmarked crosswalk, a motorist must stop their vehicle before entering the crosswalk and yield the right-of-way to the pedestrian. When stopping for a pedestrian, remember to stop far enough back so that traffic in another lane is able to see the pedestrian in the crosswalk and have time to stop.
    * When a pedestrian intends to cross a street at a crosswalk in an urban area, they may, before leaving the curb, indicate their intention to do so by raising their arm approximately at right angles to their body and point to the opposite curb in the direction they wish to walk.

    Pedestrian on corner pointing across street.

    * When a pedestrian has indicated their intention to cross the street, a motorist must stop their vehicle before entering the crosswalk and allow the pedestrian to cross.
    * When you see a yellow flashing pedestrian activated traffic light, slow down to 30 km/h and yield to any pedestrians wanting to cross the street.
    * Never pass another vehicle when you are approaching a crosswalk. There is always a chance that the other vehicle is slowing down or stopping for a pedestrian.
    * Remember that not all crosswalks are marked, but nearly all intersections have crosswalks.
    * Be especially considerate of visually impaired pedestrians who may have a white cane or guide dog.
    * At night, do not "over-drive" your headlights. This means you must be able to stop your vehicle within the distance illuminated by your headlights. Be especially alert for pedestrians. They may be wearing dark clothing and be difficult to see from a distance.
    * In residential areas, watch for children darting out from between parked vehicles, riding bikes or playing on the street. Glance under parked vehicles ahead to check for children's feet, toys, bicycle/tricycle wheels that may indicate a need to stop.
    REF: http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT.../dhpage122.htm
    http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT.../dhpage123.htm
    Ronald Palmer

  53. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by qualityresults
    Although I no longer live in the section of town Check out the cross walk by Walmart going across 137 at 38th st. I have video of drivers going through the crosswalk with people in the cross walk, and saw the results when a child was severely injured crossing at this crosswalk. Especially when the neighbourhood has been after transportation to put in a lit crosswalk. (Actually the suggestion was that Walmart should have to foot the bill as this is the usual destination, but at the very least teh Development)

    In most other cities marked crosswalks are lit with a Yellow crosswalk sign going over the whole street and pedestrian activated flashing ambers in both directions.

    But I agree with kilocar as well, the traffic regulations states that pedestrians may cross between to corners directly across from each other, and drivers must give the right of way to the pedestrian. Where a median exists the traffic must remain stopped until the pedestrian has stepped on to the median and traffic on the other side of the median must give right of way and remain stopped until the pedestrian exits the intersection.

    From the driver's handbook Page 122 and 123
    When you get out of your vehicle you become a pedestrian. When you are driving, treat pedestrians the same way you would expect to be treated if you were walking.

    * Watch for pedestrians on or near the road.
    * If a pedestrian has entered a marked or unmarked crosswalk, a motorist must stop their vehicle before entering the crosswalk and yield the right-of-way to the pedestrian. When stopping for a pedestrian, remember to stop far enough back so that traffic in another lane is able to see the pedestrian in the crosswalk and have time to stop.
    * When a pedestrian intends to cross a street at a crosswalk in an urban area, they may, before leaving the curb, indicate their intention to do so by raising their arm approximately at right angles to their body and point to the opposite curb in the direction they wish to walk.

    Pedestrian on corner pointing across street.

    * When a pedestrian has indicated their intention to cross the street, a motorist must stop their vehicle before entering the crosswalk and allow the pedestrian to cross.
    * When you see a yellow flashing pedestrian activated traffic light, slow down to 30 km/h and yield to any pedestrians wanting to cross the street.
    * Never pass another vehicle when you are approaching a crosswalk. There is always a chance that the other vehicle is slowing down or stopping for a pedestrian.
    * Remember that not all crosswalks are marked, but nearly all intersections have crosswalks.
    * Be especially considerate of visually impaired pedestrians who may have a white cane or guide dog.
    * At night, do not "over-drive" your headlights. This means you must be able to stop your vehicle within the distance illuminated by your headlights. Be especially alert for pedestrians. They may be wearing dark clothing and be difficult to see from a distance.
    * In residential areas, watch for children darting out from between parked vehicles, riding bikes or playing on the street. Glance under parked vehicles ahead to check for children's feet, toys, bicycle/tricycle wheels that may indicate a need to stop.
    REF: http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT.../dhpage122.htm
    http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFT.../dhpage123.htm
    Thank you for this important information. Far, far too many drivers forget these regulations once they pass their test and many pedestrians do not take into account they have responsibilities also.

    As I mentioned in another post I NEVER jaywalk or cross against the light because not only is it a risk I am unwilling to take (read it is stupid) but I know that as big as I am I am no match to 3,000 pounds or so of metal.

    Eye contact--works as a driver and as a pedestrian--never assume you are seen until you KNOW. I would rather be the dork waiting for that light (on RHW!) than dead. Feeling stupid I can recover from, dead I cannot.

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    One thing that some are forgetting that even though a pedestrian has the right to cross at an intersection, that it does not make sense to be dead right. Pedestrians need to be ultra vigilant in making that decision to cross only when it is safe.

    Now drivers also have to pay attention, because they are required to stop when a pedestrian is at or in a crosswalk, marked or not.

    We have all probably seen the commercial where the person is yapping away and complaining about cars stopped at a n intersection and then car blasts through an intersection killing a pedestrian. This happens far to often, luckily it does not result in a fatality. The other day while on 109st (many uncontrolled intersections), myself and 2 other drivers (1 in the opposite direction) stopped for a pedestrian, while, get this, an AMA driver education vehicle with student driver blasted by me on my left. Thankfully the pedestrian was only halfway in front of my car.

    I seem to recall an article somewhere some city was removing most controlled crosswalks as some study pedestrians were safer in uncontrolled one, I will see if I can find that.

  55. #55
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    Default Re: Making streets safer

    Quote Originally Posted by dwells
    Quote Originally Posted by djgirl
    Since six-year-old Jacob Medicoff's death on May 28, have you noticed any changes at intersections such as improved crosswalk markings or more crosswalks with lights? Have you noticed whether, since that terrible day, the Edmonton Public School Board has reviewed or changed bus routings to ensure that the kiddies get off on safer streets? Have you seen ETS move bus stops to the safer side of intersections?
    It wasn't the intersection.
    It wasn't the crosswalk.
    It wasn't the School Board.
    It wasn't the bus stop.

    It was the vehicle.

    In the past decade I can recall at least three other, similar fatalities; two along 118 Avenue and one at Southgate, where a pedestrian walked in front of the 'pickup' truck while the driver was looking for a gap in traffic. The high hood of the truck forms a blind spot directly in front of the vehicle where the pedestrians happened to be at the moment.

    Driver inattention?
    Pedestrian right of way?
    Intersection design?

    I can't accept any of these causes in this case.
    Vehicle design may well be a contributing factor, and it's not just pickup trucks. Modern vehicle styling seems to be trending towards higher hoods and beltlines, thicker pillars and smaller windows in most cars, creating ever larger blind spots. Hopefully people will start to recognise this problem and demand manufacturers produce cars with better visibility. If you can't see out of a car, don't buy it. Maybe then the manufacturers will get the message.
    Ultimately, however, the driver is responsible for being aware of these blind spots and being vigilant in making sure there is nothing in them before proceeding.

  56. #56

    Default Re: Making streets safer

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48

    Vehicle design may well be a contributing factor, and it's not just pickup trucks. Modern vehicle styling seems to be trending towards higher hoods and beltlines, thicker pillars and smaller windows in most cars, creating ever larger blind spots. Hopefully people will start to recognise this problem and demand manufacturers produce cars with better visibility. If you can't see out of a car, don't buy it. Maybe then the manufacturers will get the message.

    Ultimately, however, the driver is responsible for being aware of these blind spots and being vigilant in making sure there is nothing in them before proceeding.
    ^ YES, as a driver, it is my responsibility to ensure I can see and ascertain that there are no hazards in my way BEFORE I put the vehicle in drive.

    The “walk around your vehicle before you pull out” was mandated on some commercial vehicles for a reason—you can spot hazards (like a small child or animal) or you can see if you have a flat tire BEFORE you head out on the road.

    These do not help crosswalk safety but they are best practices for driving.

    One more and this is something I always do and insist that my SO does too and that is I always back into the garage (or drive through in a parking lot) to ensure that I can see what is coming and to eliminate the need for backing out blind. You will note that fire trucks always do this and I would bet it is not just to ensure a faster departure (although it does) but it is always better to back in under controlled circumstances.

  57. #57
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    Hi,

    This crosswalk was mentioned but I'll add my 2 cents.

    The Grant Mac crosswalk on 104 Ave and 106 St. has been the bane of my driving existance. I've been given the finger by drivers when I stop for a pedestrian (who can't be seen from behind Healy Ford's monster pickup trucks that they insist on parking up to the sidewalk), almost been hit several times crossing to Grant Mac and home, and have come damn close to hitting more than one person with my own vehicle.

    The problem is that 104 ave can have a couple of lanes at a stand still due to congestion while the third lane is clear. Traffic has stopped because of a distant light, not a pedestrian. How can you know that there is or isn't a person crossing when traffic is stopped all the way to 107st in two of the three lanes? I can't, and I had almost taken out a student on the last day of classes last December. It scared the crap out of me because there was no way I could see it coming. Given the amount of people walking to the college this crosswalk must have lights.

    I don't know the technical road terms, but I'm wondering if Jasper ave crosswalks would benefit from having islands at the halfway point and if the corner of the sidewalks had the "bulge out" for pedestrians to stand on so they can see and be seen. Amber lights as well. And I do like the idea of having to hold the button down at red light intersections.

    Is anyone from the city reading this?

    s.

  58. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.steevo
    Hi,

    This crosswalk was mentioned but I'll add my 2 cents.

    The Grant Mac crosswalk on 104 Ave and 106 St. has been the bane of my driving existance. I've been given the finger by drivers when I stop for a pedestrian (who can't be seen from behind Healy Ford's monster pickup trucks that they insist on parking up to the sidewalk), almost been hit several times crossing to Grant Mac and home, and have come damn close to hitting more than one person with my own vehicle.

    The problem is that 104 ave can have a couple of lanes at a stand still due to congestion while the third lane is clear. How can you know that there is or isn't a person crossing when traffic is stopped all the way to 107st in two of the three lanes? I can't, and I had almost taken out a student on the last day of classes last December. It scared the crap out of me because there was no way I could see it coming. Given the amount of people walking to the college this crosswalk must have lights.

    I don't know the technical road terms, but I'm wondering if Jasper ave crosswalks would benefit from having islands at the halfway point and if the corner of the sidewalks on had the "bulge out" for pedestrians to stand on so they can see and be seen. Amber lights as well. And I do like the idea of having to hold the button down at red light intersections.

    Is anyone from the city reading this?

    s.
    That intersection is a nightmare/pig/accident(s) that have happened place. I was going through this intersection last night and there was roadwork being done making it even harder to see going westbound at least.

    Not sure if having lights there would be my first choice as there are lights at 105, 107, 108 and 109.

    People are reading this...doing is another thing altogether.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by djgirl
    ...Not sure if having lights there would be my first choice as there are lights at 105, 107, 108 and 109.

    People are reading this...doing is another thing altogether.
    just add the lights for what my 2 cents is worth (a full set, not just pedestrian).

    we don't take out the lights at 106 street at 100th ave or jasper ave or 102 ave or 103 ave "because there are lights at 105, 107 108 and 109" streets, so why not have them at 104?

    they can be timed away from operating 24/7 if need be even if they can't be completely timed to traffic flow (as if that seems to matter on most other streets anyway). there's probably no reason that i can think of why most of the street lights can't flash red from 11.00 pm to 6.00 am with the avenue lights flashing amber...

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    Ah yes, one of my long-time pet peeves of this city - its half-arsed and inconsistent crosswalk policy - rears its head again.

    Unmarked crosswalks on Jasper Avenue cause for concern for restaurant staff


    http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/89...taurant-staff/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    There needs to be an enforcement blitz on marked, unlit crosswalks. Drill it in to the public's head that yielding to pedestrians at one is NOT optional. The EPS could make a killing handing out huge fines for people blowing through the crosswalks on Jasper Avenue. It's unreal what you'll see some ignorant drivers doing, like blowing past three or four lanes of stopped traffic in the curb lane and nearly hitting someone crossing.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    There needs to be an enforcement blitz on marked, unlit crosswalks. Drill it in to the public's head that yielding to pedestrians at one is NOT optional. The EPS could make a killing handing out huge fines for people blowing through the crosswalks on Jasper Avenue. It's unreal what you'll see some ignorant drivers doing, like blowing past three or four lanes of stopped traffic in the curb lane and nearly hitting someone crossing.
    EPS seems more focused on revenue generation from jaywalking pedestrians when it comes to the—pardon the pun—intersection of motorists and pedestrians.
    I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

  63. #63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dialog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    There needs to be an enforcement blitz on marked, unlit crosswalks. Drill it in to the public's head that yielding to pedestrians at one is NOT optional. The EPS could make a killing handing out huge fines for people blowing through the crosswalks on Jasper Avenue. It's unreal what you'll see some ignorant drivers doing, like blowing past three or four lanes of stopped traffic in the curb lane and nearly hitting someone crossing.
    EPS seems more focused on revenue generation from jaywalking pedestrians when it comes to the—pardon the pun—intersection of motorists and pedestrians.
    Easier to chase someone down on foot. Running down cars going through the crosswalk would take having an officer on the ground radioing ahead to a patrol cruiser; similar effort to a speed trap, but probably less revenue. Maybe someone should remind them they could combine it with a speed trap; typicallly those blasting through a crosswalk with pedestrians in it are also speeding; they could get a twofer of tickets

  64. #64

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dwells
    Quote Originally Posted by djgirl
    Since six-year-old Jacob Medicoff's death on May 28, have you noticed any changes at intersections such as improved crosswalk markings or more crosswalks with lights? Have you noticed whether, since that terrible day, the Edmonton Public School Board has reviewed or changed bus routings to ensure that the kiddies get off on safer streets? Have you seen ETS move bus stops to the safer side of intersections?
    It wasn't the intersection.
    It wasn't the crosswalk.
    It wasn't the School Board.
    It wasn't the bus stop.

    It was the vehicle.

    In the past decade I can recall at least three other, similar fatalities; two along 118 Avenue and one at Southgate, where a pedestrian walked in front of the 'pickup' truck while the driver was looking for a gap in traffic. The high hood of the truck forms a blind spot directly in front of the vehicle where the pedestrians happened to be at the moment.

    Driver inattention?
    Pedestrian right of way?
    Intersection design?

    I can't accept any of these causes in this case.
    Vehicle design may well be a contributing factor, and it's not just pickup trucks. Modern vehicle styling seems to be trending towards higher hoods and beltlines, thicker pillars and smaller windows in most cars, creating ever larger blind spots. Hopefully people will start to recognise this problem and demand manufacturers produce cars with better visibility. If you can't see out of a car, don't buy it. Maybe then the manufacturers will get the message.
    Ultimately, however, the driver is responsible for being aware of these blind spots and being vigilant in making sure there is nothing in them before proceeding.
    My thoughts on school bus design.
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=34150

    As for crossing design, sometimes a re-think can solve some problems.



    Last edited by KC; 20-12-2013 at 07:03 PM.

  65. #65
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    City of Edmonton promising to take “local experience” into account for crosswalk decisions
    http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/14...alk-decisions/

    The city’s transportation department is promising a more people focused approach to pedestrian safety that will make community input a higher priority.

    In a report going to city council next week, the department says they are no longer looking for minimum numbers of pedestrians to justify a crosswalk and the focus will be around “local experience and local conditions around the constraints to more pedestrian use.”

    Spokesperson Laura McNabb said the department will still consider the science and the numbers, but community concerns are going to weight.

    “It’s going to be a combined thing there is still a scientific element to it in terms of traffic flow and in terms of number of pedestrians, but definitely there is room for the community feedback,” she said.

    McNabb said the department has to consider budget and the needs of the whole city, so some numbers will always come into play.

    “We have a specified number of resources that we were given to implement it and so it really has to be in those locations where it’s going to have the greatest positive impact,” she said.

    Councillors called for the city to take a harder look at its policy last year after several troubling incidents, including a crash that left a 19-year-old woman badly injured.

    The transportation report said that reviewing Jasper, Whyte, 104 Avenue and 109 Street with this new approach identified nine other intersections where a crosswalk would be warranted.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  66. #66

    Default

    My comments from a couple other threads...


    What are 'street' lights for? What should they be for?
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=33129

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    The current 'standards' seem rather simplistic considering the variability in designs that should be demanded for public safety. For instance, poles are spaced equally whether there is a cross walk or not, where a wide boulevard separates a street from the sidewalk it seems that the street takes priority even though cars have headlights... Why not have an extra one or two lights straddling crosswalks? Or why not have two lights on some poles with one focusing on street illumination and the other on sidewalk illumination?...
    "Look Left - Look Right" decals - - - - - - - [applies to pedestrians too] - - - - - - - -
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...read.php?t=387

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    When I drive to work, at red lights, I look around at the other drivers and many seem to be in some sort of trance like state - staring straight ahead. When the light changes they just go for it.

    Soooo... I'd like to suggest that beside some of Edmonton's overhead traffic lights some sort of tactful, unobtrusive, socially acceptable sign or decal be put up (or spray painted on the cross members) saying something like:

    'On Green - look left, look right - before proceeding'

    or even "Remember to <- ->"

    or something better.

    My father once mentioned a NewYork cabby interview, a cab driver with a long term accident free record, where he said he; 'saved is own life one a week or something like that by simply looking before proceding into intersections. Someone was always running a red light.' Maybe something to get people thinking about that here, might help.
    Last edited by KC; 26-06-2015 at 12:58 AM.

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    I like the lights sort of mirroring a striped crosswalk. With LEDs you can turn them on when a pedestrian presses a button. I do wonder what the anti-trolley wire/traffic signal wire crowd will think of more wires across a street.

    At one time Winnipeg's crosswalks stood out as they used a yellow/orange light and the regular streetlights were white mercury vapor, now that they are primarily sodium vapor the crosswalks don't stand out as much. Perhaps once Winnipeg goes to white LEDs it they will stand out again.

    http://media.winnipegfreepress.com/i...3_17269088.jpg

  68. #68

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    ^^ or the drivers attempting to make a right on red will stare over their left shoulder and then proceed forward once they see no oncoming vehicles without returning attention to their intended direction of travel.


    There needs to be more education on all fronts. Pedestrians think they always have the right of way. But it doesn't work like that. Don't just simply stand at a crosswalk and simply wait for vehicles to stop. Don't be shy and kind of "linger" around until traffic lightens - this confuses drivers. You have to make your intentions clear (sticking your arm out doesn't make you look funny - there's a reason the crossing signs depict a person with their arm out).

    Confirm acknowledgement from drivers with eye contact. Proceed to cross and be vigilant of all lanes of traffic for potential unaware drivers. This means don't text and don't be plugged into your mp3 player. The onus is on the pedestrian to defend themselves. They're ultimately "squishy" and will not fare well against a 3000lb metal object hurling at them.


    Driver education is also lacking. Pedestrians are allowed to cross at any intersection unless otherwise signed. This means, yes, they are allowed to cross on a busy street that intersects with a collector road even if there are no signage or marked crossing lines on the road. Don't honk at the pedestrian; don't honk at the vehicle stopped for the pedestrian; don't pressure the pedestrian by inching.


    Focus on education and enforcement. We can only dumb-proof these crosswalks so much before we get to the point of installing grade separated crossings with escalators and elevators =/

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    I always maintain eye contact with drivers when I cross the street, either at a light, or a marked crosswalk. You can see whether someone is messing around in their car, or paying attention to you while you cross. I've seen too many people that wait for the first car to stop and then walk across the other 3 lanes as though they're invincible. Very, very foolish.

    And drivers have to drive within the rules as well. I saw a close call this morning when a driver slammed on their breaks for a jaywalker in the middle of a block.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    When there is traffic on the road, but not enough to prevent a gap shortly, I stand several feet back from the curb to signal that I prefer to wait. I hope this is a clear signal. I even had a trucker wave a thanks once.

    I've had too many close calls with other traffic attempting to pass the car that stopped. Or even worse, being pressured as B.ike describes, by inching forward or gunning the engine.

    If the road is so busy that I will not be able to cross, I walk over a a light-controlled intersection. I don't trust the pedestrian activated overhead lights because there are too many drivers who don't understand them.

    I'm never in that much of a hurry. It's not a perfect world.

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    The primary concern continues to be drivers who are paying attention to something other than driving. It's bad now, and it seems to be getting worse. Young adults in particular (though far from exclusively) don't seem to be taking it seriously.

    Anecdotes abound. A couple weeks ago traffic was stopped for a woman crossing 107 ave pushing a baby carriage. A car in the inside lane, coming up behind the one already stopped, wasn't slowing down There was no way for the woman crossing to see, so I yelled "look out!". The woman driver finally swerved into the outside lane, ostensibly to go around, then slammed on her brakes and barely skidded to a stop.

    At no point did I see her head come up from being focussed on her lap, even after she came to a stop. It was like something pathological, as if she couldn't help herself. She never once looked up.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but there are a lot of people driving doing similar things. They need to have their licenses taken away for awhile, and there should be big demerits.

    It's often said distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. I'd say it might be worse. What makes it even worse again is that those doing it aren't using impaired judgement. They are entirely sober, and still make the wrong decision.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    It's often said distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. I'd say it might be worse
    It IS worse. Statistics are starting to roll in and it's not good, look up what the OPP recently press released. It IS the new drunk driving. Even worse though - 1/3 to 1/4 people do it on a regular driving basis.

    Let's all just think about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The primary concern continues to be drivers who are paying attention to something other than driving. It's bad now, and it seems to be getting worse. Young adults in particular (though far from exclusively) don't seem to be taking it seriously.

    Anecdotes abound. A couple weeks ago traffic was stopped for a woman crossing 107 ave pushing a baby carriage. A car in the inside lane, coming up behind the one already stopped, wasn't slowing down There was no way for the woman crossing to see, so I yelled "look out!". The woman driver finally swerved into the outside lane, ostensibly to go around, then slammed on her brakes and barely skidded to a stop.

    At no point did I see her head come up from being focussed on her lap, even after she came to a stop. It was like something pathological, as if she couldn't help herself. She never once looked up.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but there are a lot of people driving doing similar things. They need to have their licenses taken away for awhile, and there should be big demerits.

    It's often said distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. I'd say it might be worse. What makes it even worse again is that those doing it aren't using impaired judgement. They are entirely sober, and still make the wrong decision.
    When I was trying to delineate snail mail, from phones, email, texting, Twitter etc by the need for immediacy of response (ie you phone if it's important, email when it's not, text when it's not and you have little to say...) a friend said: "NO ONE talks on the phone anymore".

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The primary concern continues to be drivers who are paying attention to something other than driving. It's bad now, and it seems to be getting worse. Young adults in particular (though far from exclusively) don't seem to be taking it seriously.

    Anecdotes abound. A couple weeks ago traffic was stopped for a woman crossing 107 ave pushing a baby carriage. A car in the inside lane, coming up behind the one already stopped, wasn't slowing down There was no way for the woman crossing to see, so I yelled "look out!". The woman driver finally swerved into the outside lane, ostensibly to go around, then slammed on her brakes and barely skidded to a stop.

    At no point did I see her head come up from being focussed on her lap, even after she came to a stop. It was like something pathological, as if she couldn't help herself. She never once looked up.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but there are a lot of people driving doing similar things. They need to have their licenses taken away for awhile, and there should be big demerits.

    It's often said distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. I'd say it might be worse. What makes it even worse again is that those doing it aren't using impaired judgement. They are entirely sober, and still make the wrong decision.
    When I was trying to delineate snail mail, from phones, email, texting, Twitter etc by the need for immediacy of response (ie you phone if it's important, email when it's not, text when it's not and you have little to say...) a friend said: "NO ONE talks on the phone anymore".
    That's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. I rarely answer my phone, because I'm doing something. Half the time it's a scam call anyway (including the newer "Thanks for choosing Air Canada" one" I'm being bombarded with from a local number).

    Texting is better for me because I can consider my response and reply at my leisure.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    It's often said distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. I'd say it might be worse
    It IS worse. Statistics are starting to roll in and it's not good, look up what the OPP recently press released. It IS the new drunk driving. Even worse though - 1/3 to 1/4 people do it on a regular driving basis.

    Let's all just think about that.
    I wish more people would think about that.

    Pick any relatively busy intersection and watch - it's scary how common it is.

    I was riding in a truck with a contractor awhile back, and he was using two phablets, one in his hand, and one in his lap. Weaving in and out of lanes. Coming to abrupt stops. It was terrifying for me. I got the impression it was normal behaviour for him.

    Maybe he figures because he has a huge truck that he's safe. He clearly doesn't think about the safety of anyone else.

    I'll never work with him (he wanted me to do a job for him), and for sure I'll never ride in a vehicle he's driving. I feel as if he should warn everyone prior to hitting the road, stating his route, so others can take precautions.

    He's the only one I know of that really stands out for his blatant disregard for the safety of others. Others have texted while driving, usually something like "ok", but it still makes me uncomfortable.

    I don't know what we do to get people to take driving seriously. Repeat offenders need to lose their license before they hurt somebody or themselves.

    The Police said in a tweet I read that people just don't believe it's going to happen, to them, until it happens to them.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Just how well are the police working on this? Not well enough, clearly.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

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    City identifies locations for crosswalk upgrades
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/06/2...swalk-upgrades

    City officials are set to debate whether pedestrian crosswalks in nine areas of Edmonton need to be upgraded.

    In keeping with the city’s strategy to make Edmonton’s streets more friendly to various modes of active transport – such as bicycling and walking – transportation services says they are progressing with efforts to assess and upgrade crossings on Whyte Avenue, 109 Street, 104 Avenue and Jasper Avenue.

    Nine crosswalks in these areas have been identified for upgrading to either a pedestrian amber flasher or a full pedestrian signal sometime in 2015 or 2016.
    A report by transportation services outlines areas where upgrades to pedestrian crosswalks are already being implemented, including around school zones and near seniors centres.

    The report identifies possible enhancement options including having overhead mounted signs indicating a pedestrian crosswalk, installing rapid-flashing beacons below side mounted pedestrian crosswalk signs – which, in a pilot study at Saskatchewan Drive and 99 Street in April, 2014 showed improvement in drivers’ yielding behaviour – and adding florescent tubing to the sign posts of existing pedestrian crossing signs.

    Transportation services also reports working on a city-wide priority list of all crosswalk locations, which will be then prioritized based on pedestrian activity levels, the number of lanes that need to be crossed, the posted speed limit in the area and the volume of traffic flowing through.

    The report will be presented to the transportation committee on Monday.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I used to think that pedestrians should choose to wear more visible clothing when walking in the dark so that when they cross a street, drivers have a better chance to see the pedestrian. Now I realize that that would be considered "victim blaming". In fact, even if there are crosswalk lights, drivers shouldn't 'expect' pedestrians to use them when they cross as that too is just victim blaming.


    Interesting interview...


    What keeps walkers safe? A West Vancouver crosswalk gets mocked online - Home | The 180 with Jim Brown | CBC Radio

    ...

    So, what made the Twittersphere react so angrily to the District's plan?

    To some transportation advocates, the concept of flags reinforces an idea that pedestrians must take on the job of keeping themselves safe while walking around. Martyn Schmoll was not one of the displeased tweeters, but he is a parent in North Vancouver, and advocate for pedestrian-friendly streets. His take on flag crosswalks generally, is that despite the good intentions of the designers, they send a signal to the world.

    It sends a message that pedestrians are the ones who should be looking out. It basically absolves the driver of some responsibility to make sure they obey the rules, and the law around crosswalks.
    - Martyn Schmoll

    To Martyn, there's a general philosophy in society that cars are the priority, and designing for pedestrians is an afterthought. Beyond this specific intersection, Martyn believes we need to flip the order of priority when we design streets. The alternative, to Martyn, is reimagine every intersection from the point of view of pedestrians, and flip what he sees as a long-time priority for vehicles over walkers.


    ...


    http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/refug...line-1.3454481

    Last edited by KC; 21-02-2016 at 11:54 AM.

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    It wouldn't be so bad if a lot of pedestrians actually looked to see if it was safe to cross rather than just marching out into the roadway expecting a ton of moving metal to stop on a dime.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

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    Yup, those ******* pedestrians. What the **** is wrong with them?

    They're almost as bad as signs, and signs are the worst. C'mon signs, if you don't take any personal responsibility then it's no one's fault but your own when you get hit.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    It wouldn't be so bad if a lot of pedestrians actually looked to see if it was safe to cross rather than just marching out into the roadway expecting a ton of moving metal to stop on a dime.
    Pretty much this. Its amazing how naive some people are. I have a friend and she completely assumes vehicles will stop for her as soon as she steps off the curb and does so without looking. I've had to pull her back a couple times downtown cause she would have been smoked by a car.

    Couple that with people not even bothering to look away from their cell phone while they cross the street with ear phones on and yeah, its no wonder we see an increase in pedestrian accidents.

    I don't know but common sense to me says that in a one on one with a truck or car I'm probably going to lose so maybe I'll take the tiny precaution and see if its safe to cross the street and not assume buddy behind the wheel with the Tim Horton's coffee in one hand and cell phone in the other is going to see me.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfangled View Post


    Yup, those ******* pedestrians. What the **** is wrong with them?

    They're almost as bad as signs, and signs are the worst. C'mon signs, if you don't take any personal responsibility then it's no one's fault but your own when you get hit.
    Brings a point to my previous post. Don't put your life in the hands of crappy drivers.

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    When out in the world everybody needs to pay attention, drivers and pedestrians. I've seen plenty of both doing stupid things.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I used to think that pedestrians should choose to wear more visible clothing when walking in the dark so that when they cross a street, drivers have a better chance to see the pedestrian. Now I realize that that would be considered "victim blaming". In fact, even if there are crosswalk lights, drivers shouldn't 'expect' pedestrians to use them when they cross as that too is just victim blaming.


    Interesting interview...


    What keeps walkers safe? A West Vancouver crosswalk gets mocked online - Home | The 180 with Jim Brown | CBC Radio

    ...

    So, what made the Twittersphere react so angrily to the District's plan?

    To some transportation advocates, the concept of flags reinforces an idea that pedestrians must take on the job of keeping themselves safe while walking around. Martyn Schmoll was not one of the displeased tweeters, but he is a parent in North Vancouver, and advocate for pedestrian-friendly streets. His take on flag crosswalks generally, is that despite the good intentions of the designers, they send a signal to the world.

    It sends a message that pedestrians are the ones who should be looking out. It basically absolves the driver of some responsibility to make sure they obey the rules, and the law around crosswalks.
    - Martyn Schmoll

    To Martyn, there's a general philosophy in society that cars are the priority, and designing for pedestrians is an afterthought. Beyond this specific intersection, Martyn believes we need to flip the order of priority when we design streets. The alternative, to Martyn, is reimagine every intersection from the point of view of pedestrians, and flip what he sees as a long-time priority for vehicles over walkers.


    ...


    http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/refug...line-1.3454481

    Pedestrians must take on the job of keeping themselves safe while walking around! What good is it to be right when you are dead?

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    Well, if we actually want to make the city a better place then we might take a look at actual statistics that tell us who is actually causing injuries, doing what, and trying to make those places better, and I can tell you right now that we don't make it better by helping negligent drivers feel better about themselves by blaming pedestrians as much as the Alberta government's current billboard campaign seems to think so.

    Will a billboard at Yellowhead and Fort Road be seen by more walkers who are reminded to make eyecontact, or more drivers who are encouraged to think of ever pedestrian who doesn't look them in the eyes is somehow an accident waiting to happen?

    Incidentally, eye contact as a major crossing strategy is pretty much useless. At a normal crosswalk you typically can't make eye contact with drivers until they're much too close to stop if they haven't already slowed to a crawl. When drivers are stopped waiting for a gap to make a turn eye contact is possible if the driver actually looks, but if you wait for eye contact as a pedestrian you might miss the light half the time and that's not acceptable.

    Unless, of course, the message is that pedestrians should smack hoods and fenders to alert drivers and make them make eye contact.
    Last edited by highlander; 23-02-2016 at 08:44 AM.

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    I think of the eye contact rule as a euphemism for eyeballing each vehicle that could hit you and ensuring they are actually slowing down before you walk in front of them. I regularly cross 107th where the bike path meets it north of the old brewery and do this all the time. It's paid off as there are vehicles that blow right past slowing and stopped vehicles, and through the flashing lights.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post

    Brings a point to my previous post. Don't put your life in the hands of crappy drivers.
    I don't want to, but they exist and nothing I can do will make me 100% safe from crappy drivers. Like the one who passed me when I was cycling at what seemed like a respectful low speed and safe distance, and then turned without signalling across my path before she was completely past me. Or the one that pulled rapidly out of a parallel parking spot into a 3-point turn without looking. Nothing I could do to prevent that incident but come to a stop every time there's a running car at the side of the road. Or the ones who drive onto the sidewalk for whatever reason. I've seen it.

    There are better ways that we can avoid "putting our life in the hands of crappy drivers. Like making it harder to get and easier to lose a drivers license. Like making better crosswalks, sometimes including lights but more often just making the corners tight so bad drivers can't speed through turns, and by making the 5M of the curb lane where drivers aren't allowed to park into a safe part of the sidewalk. Narrower lanes would minimize crossing distances and exposure to bad drivers. Lane rationalizations where extra lanes aren't absolutely needed for traffic volumes - 2 lanes each way to one each way plus a left turn lane - doesn't set up a bad situation where bad drivers pass good drivers who are stopped for pedestrians.

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    This will likely be very unpopular, but a solid way of improving the pedestrian experience and traffic safety in general downtown would be to ban right turns on red lights.

    What happens right now is that drivers inch up, blocking the crosswalk and forcing pedestrians out into the street. They also tend to speed to catch "gaps" in traffic, taking corners far too fast to react to pedestrians stepping into the street.

    If we banned right turns on red lights downtown, we could also easily push the stop line back a couple yards. This would improve visibility of pedestrians for cars, and allow for innovative crosswalk patterns that allow people to "cut the corner" on foot (i.e. have a wider crosswalk adjacent to the sidewalk that narrows down in the middle - much more efficient for walking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I think of the eye contact rule as a euphemism for eyeballing each vehicle that could hit you and ensuring they are actually slowing down before you walk in front of them. I regularly cross 107th where the bike path meets it north of the old brewery and do this all the time. It's paid off as there are vehicles that blow right past slowing and stopped vehicles, and through the flashing lights.
    I do the same, but "When eyes lock it's safer to walk" as the billboard says is a different message.

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    Good thoughts, guys, this last little batch of posts. Underlines the fact that everyone, on foot or behind the wheel, bears responsibility. Everyone wants to go home rather than to a hospital at the end of the day. Make it so.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    This will likely be very unpopular, but a solid way of improving the pedestrian experience and traffic safety in general downtown would be to ban right turns on red lights.
    So long as there is a commensurate increase in the enforcement of jaywalking penalties for pedestrians crossing against no walk signals, and an increase in the amount of no-walk time in a given green light sequence. I live downtown and frequently am both a pedestrian and driver, and prohibiting right turns on red lights will cause most streets crossing Jasper Avenue to only have a couple vehicles clear the intersection per green phase, because both lanes will be continuously blocked by left and right turning vehicles unable to do so because pedestrians in Edmonton basically cross during the entire green light phase regardless of what the pedestrian signal tells them to do.

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    ^ Scramble crosswalks might be a better approach in areas with high pedestrian volumes.

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    It's not even that there's high volumes of pedestrians at the intersections I'm thinking of. It's just that there's a constant flow throughout the light cycle. You'll be trying to make a left or right and stuck through most of the light cycle, see what you think is an opening as the clock ticks down on the "no-walk" sign, and right as you're about to go for it someone steps off the curb with 4 seconds left. This often happens on both sides of the intersection, leaving all 4 lanes of traffic blocked in both directions because there's vehicles in each lane trying to turn left or right (there are no right hand turn only lanes at these streets). Happens frequently at 103 and 104 streets at Jasper Avenue.

    Pedestrian crossings downtown are not limited by volume. We don't have anywhere near that kind of pedestrian activity. At virtually every intersection, the volume of pedestrians crossing can easily be handled by a very short walk phase. The problem is that people continue walking throughout the entire light phase, and the countdown clocks have very much enabled that kind of behavior.

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    I just got back from Stockholm & was pleasantly surprised (and a little bewildered at first) by their crosswalks/pedestrian signaling.

    Much shorter intervals for the entire cycle; cars are stopped more frequently & the pedestrian cycle is much quicker. It's also permitted to cross when you don't have the right-of-way, with the understanding you're responsible if you get smacked by a car. It was quite common to "jaywalk" the first half of a street due to a gap in traffic & then wait at the mid-point of the road, usually in a street-level gap in an island for the rest of the traffic to be stopped.

    It was a refreshing change for pedestrian traffic flow to be considered & accommodated as much as vehicular traffic, if not more.

    (Plus their transit system is a thing of beauty)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    ^same in many euro downtowns, even in S.F., but you need much narrower streets in most cases.

    S.F. DT had many 15-20sec intervals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    It's not even that there's high volumes of pedestrians at the intersections I'm thinking of. It's just that there's a constant flow throughout the light cycle. You'll be trying to make a left or right and stuck through most of the light cycle, see what you think is an opening as the clock ticks down on the "no-walk" sign, and right as you're about to go for it someone steps off the curb with 4 seconds left.
    Uh huh. This happens a lot around Whyte as well. The worst is when you're trying to make a left turn and someone starts in behind you. They're running, while you're turning left, then slamming on your breaks because the person is crossing the intersection when they shouldn't be. Very frustrating, and dangerous.

    The city should set up some cameras at busy intersections and record (for statistics, not tickets) how many people start crossing when the hand pops up.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^same in many euro downtowns, even in S.F., but you need much narrower streets in most cases.

    S.F. DT had many 15-20sec intervals.
    Yes. Many crosswalks in downtown Edmonton are so wide that during some intervals pedestrians barely make it. If you are a slow mover for any reason (age being one), you will just scrape through at some times of the day. This is a problem that prevents mobility, social inclusion, and aging in place in our downtown.

    Of course this belies a greater issue, which is that we have a full highway sized road in the middle of our downtown...

  98. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Of course this belies a greater issue, which is that we have a full highway sized road in the middle of our downtown...
    QFT.

    Don't forget the ample on-street parking!

    I don't think I saw a single vehicle parked on the street in central Stockholm & I certainly didn't see any surface lots. Between that & the pedestrian-friendly approach to signals & streetscapes it was like Shangri La
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  99. #99
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
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    What Edmonton needs are the shorter traffic light cycles. It is unacceptable for cars and pedestrians alike to have to wait 3 minutes to cross a street.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  100. #100
    highlander
    Guest

    Default

    Then we need shorter crossing distances. Extend the sidewalk out through the parking lane in crosswalks, 5m approaching crosswalks and anywhere else parking isn't allowed.

    Another approach that could work in some locations is provide mid-block crossings instead of at the corners. there there's no turning drivers to worry about, and no need for extra turning lanes. Of course, mid-block doesn't line up with the sidewalk so there are limited locations where it can work.

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