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Thread: The Cost of Religious Discrimination

  1. #1

    Default The Cost of Religious Discrimination

    This is one of the better articles on the absolute stupidity of providing public funding to religion-based schools.

    http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/02...iscrimination/

    If Ontario is flagrantly wasting $500 million, I would anticipate that Alberta is flushing at least $250 million down the drain each year.

    Instead, the Alberta Conservatives persist in building duplicate school infrastructure side-by-side and separating children from the same communities based on the supposed superior values of one religion's preferred status.

    Until this fundamental issue is addressed, with urgency, I have no respect for any Alberta Government platitudes that they are responsibly managing taxpayer dollars.
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  2. #2

    Default Alberta petition to disestablish separate schools

    For those that aren't aware, Albertans owe Dave King a debt of gratitude for trying to create some public awareness on this issue in our province:
    http://www.separateschooleducation.ca/index.php

    Given that King is a respected ex-Tory cabinet minister, including a former Education minister, I have a hunch that the Alberta Tories may be quietly supporting King's straw-dog initiative as it's only a matter of time before even Alberta is forced to make educational reforms to stop this (19th Century) insanity.
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    Agree with you completely Kenn.
    Last edited by trojonowicz; 25-04-2011 at 12:08 AM. Reason: spelling

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    The universality debate arrives at the school door.

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    as one who has for a long time felt the duplicate structure was inappropriate in addition to expensive - particularly at the municipal level where these costs are really incurred in terms of duplicate undeveloped or underdeveloped land and resulting underutilized facilities - i am struggling with your first post's "I have no respect for any Alberta Governement platitudes that they are responsibly managing taxpayer dollars" single issue conclusion with your second post's "I have a hunch that the Alberta Tories may be quietly supporting King's straw-dog initiative as it's only a matter of time before even Alberta is forced to make educational reforms to stop this (19th Century) insanity."
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  6. #6

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    Everyone on here should do their due diligence and link that website/petition on Facebook, help it gain traction.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  7. #7
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    I agree and argued in the past that there should not be parallel public school systems. Having said that, I think the issue is not as simple to resolve as it potentially a consitutional issue which is not as easy to decide as cutting off funding.

    Ideally, governments need to fund basic education–arts, sciences, physical education, and maybe some options that cover issues of religions and study religions as a subject. All the rest should come out of pockets of communities who would like to see additional education opportunities. A great example of this arrangement is Edmonton Public School's Talmud Torah school. It is a public school and most teachers there come from the pool of teachers hired by Edmonton Public Schools. The parents of students at that school pay tuition for Jewish education portion only. Teachers who instruct in Jewish Education subjects are not necessarily Edmonton Public Schools teachers.

    I think arrangements such as this one are the way to go. It ensures fundamental quality of education–the area where pubic money needs to be spent, while giving parents options to add-on a special educational experience they want for their children.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    I agree and argued in the past that there should not be parallel public school systems. Having said that, I think the issue is not as simple to resolve as it potentially a consitutional issue which is not as easy to decide as cutting off funding.

    Ideally, governments need to fund basic education–arts, sciences, physical education, and maybe some options that cover issues of religions and study religions as a subject. All the rest should come out of pockets of communities who would like to see additional education opportunities. A great example of this arrangement is Edmonton Public School's Talmud Torah school. It is a public school and most teachers there come from the pool of teachers hired by Edmonton Public Schools. The parents of students at that school pay tuition for Jewish education portion only. Teachers who instruct in Jewish Education subjects are not necessarily Edmonton Public Schools teachers.

    I think arrangements such as this one are the way to go. It ensures fundamental quality of education–the area where pubic money needs to be spent, while giving parents options to add-on a special educational experience they want for their children.
    While I agree in principal to the overall I do have some serious issues with the targeting of the Catholic program.

    While there are some examples, as grish points out above, how can we possibly say no to the Catholic program when we fund many others that are based on other religions, ethnic audiences or even other non central formats.

    How can you support a "Hockey School" a "Ballet School" or another culturally or alternative based school yet target the Catholic programming? How about the Nellie McLung all girls programming?

    To me it becomes fairly clear...if you allow one you allow all...where does the line get drawn?

    IMO

    Tom

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    Please do not call it nineteeth-century insanity. It is a necessary component of the society you support and continue to work toward. Especially if you are Conservative.

    If you don't like it, you have no choice but to reconsider your values more deeply.

  10. #10

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    ^I'm (fiscally) Conservative, and also a devout atheist. Schooling should be secular. Religion should be taken up outside of school.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Sorry, Chmiltz, I'm afraid I don't buy that. There are three things secular conservatives too often fail to acknowledge:

    1. The society has become more religious in the last thirty years. Oh, church attendance may have dropped -- but those who believe are more devout and more political about it, and so its influence has risen enormously.

    2. The more devout, the higher breeding.

    3. The right-wing has milked the religious vote for all its worth.

    So again -- if you have a problem with religious schooling, think more deeply what you really stand for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Sorry, Chmiltz, I'm afraid I don't buy that. There are three things secular conservatives too often fail to acknowledge:

    1. The society has become more religious in the last thirty years. Oh, church attendance may have dropped -- but those who believe are more devout and more political about it, and so its influence has risen enormously.

    2. The more devout, the higher breeding.

    3. The right-wing has milked the religious vote for all its worth.

    So again -- if you have a problem with religious schooling, think more deeply what you really stand for.
    So just that I understand you, when someone like Chmilz (or I) disagrees with you, the solution is to think deeper.

    Wouldn't just appreciating the fact that not everyone thinks the way you do (or has to) be quicker and easier?

    That's kind of an hypothesis, by the way. They teach them in actual science classes.

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    ^Yes, yes, let's begin to slug each other. Very good.

    Let me say my point a third time: you can't call increasing religiosity archaic if it's actually very modern; it is an integral part of the modern right wing; and people who claim to be right wing but don't like the religiosity have a problem as regards the consistency of their views.

    Other than despising me for daring to point that out, do you have a way out of the inconsistency that involves not what should be and might be, but rather what is?
    Last edited by alex69; 25-04-2011 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Yes, yes, let's begin to slug each other. Very good.

    Let me say my point a third time: you can't call increasing religiosity archaic if it's actually very modern; it is an integral part of the modern right wing; and people who claim to be right wing but don't like the religiosity have a problem as regards the consistency of their views.
    Just seeking some clarity.

    It's based on ideas 2000 plus years old. It's archaic. If you believe a god made the world 1500 years ago, and people still believe it 1500 years later, the idea is no more modern.

    You don't get a monopoly on defining the term right wing. Or any other term for that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Yes, yes, let's begin to slug each other. Very good.

    Let me say my point a third time: you can't call increasing religiosity archaic if it's actually very modern; it is an integral part of the modern right wing; and people who claim to be right wing but don't like the religiosity have a problem as regards the consistency of their views.
    Just seeking some clarity.

    It's based on ideas 2000 plus years old. It's archaic. If you believe a god made the world 1500 years ago, and people still believe it 1500 years later, the idea is no more modern.

    You don't get a monopoly on defining the term right wing. Or any other term for that matter.
    I am not talking about the ancient and not so ancient content of what various people consider scripture, but rather about the absolute fact that the religious content of our political discourse has increased in the last fifteen, and perhaps even thirty-five, years.

    As for the rest -- try writing a message without the pronoun "you".

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Yes, yes, let's begin to slug each other. Very good.

    Let me say my point a third time: you can't call increasing religiosity archaic if it's actually very modern; it is an integral part of the modern right wing; and people who claim to be right wing but don't like the religiosity have a problem as regards the consistency of their views.
    Just seeking some clarity.

    It's based on ideas 2000 plus years old. It's archaic. If you believe a god made the world 1500 years ago, and people still believe it 1500 years later, the idea is no more modern.

    You don't get a monopoly on defining the term right wing. Or any other term for that matter.
    I am not talking about the ancient and not so ancient content of what various people consider scripture, but rather about the absolute fact that the religious content of our political discourse has increased in the last fifteen, and perhaps even thirty-five, years.

    As for the rest -- try writing a message without the pronoun "you".
    When I'm making a comment about what you wrote, what pronoun should I use?

    Anyway. . . .

    The religious content is exactly what's old. And using it has been around likely as long as the religion it's based on.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    I agree and argued in the past that there should not be parallel public school systems. Having said that, I think the issue is not as simple to resolve as it potentially a consitutional issue which is not as easy to decide as cutting off funding.

    Ideally, governments need to fund basic education–arts, sciences, physical education, and maybe some options that cover issues of religions and study religions as a subject. All the rest should come out of pockets of communities who would like to see additional education opportunities. A great example of this arrangement is Edmonton Public School's Talmud Torah school. It is a public school and most teachers there come from the pool of teachers hired by Edmonton Public Schools. The parents of students at that school pay tuition for Jewish education portion only. Teachers who instruct in Jewish Education subjects are not necessarily Edmonton Public Schools teachers.

    I think arrangements such as this one are the way to go. It ensures fundamental quality of education–the area where pubic money needs to be spent, while giving parents options to add-on a special educational experience they want for their children.
    While I agree in principal to the overall I do have some serious issues with the targeting of the Catholic program.

    While there are some examples, as grish points out above, how can we possibly say no to the Catholic program when we fund many others that are based on other religions, ethnic audiences or even other non central formats.

    How can you support a "Hockey School" a "Ballet School" or another culturally or alternative based school yet target the Catholic programming? How about the Nellie McLung all girls programming?

    To me it becomes fairly clear...if you allow one you allow all...where does the line get drawn?

    IMO

    Tom
    Jeremy/Chmiltz

    Referring to my above quote...

    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.

    Tom

  18. #18

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    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing. According to the last few Canadian census', there's a clear trend showing that "not affiliated with a religion" is growing. So while one religion or another may be gaining or losing members, the crowd that isn't religious is the one that's growing.

    Wikipedia article comparing 1991 vs 2001 Canadian census. 12.6% of Canadians claimed no religious affiliation in '91, vs 16.5% in 2001. No religious affiliation is now 2nd to Christian religions, and larger than all minority and other religions combined.

    By province, Alberta has one of the top non-religious affiliation percentages in Canada, meaning we're not a bunch of "God-fearing fat white Christian male" Conservatives as you'd seem to be suggesting.

    Get the facts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  19. #19

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    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.
    Don't offer it. If parents want to enroll their children in special extracurricular activities, that should come out of their pocket, not from taxpayers. That's an investment each person should have to personally choose to make.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing.
    I said the influence of religion on politics (and therefore on society as a whole) is growing even if church attendance, etc. are dropping.

    And the fact it's growing is proved quite simply by the expansion of publicly-funded religious education. If the influence were not growing, the public funding would be denied.

    There are other indicators also, but the one I've brought up is quite enough.

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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing.
    I said the influence of religion on politics (and therefore on society as a whole) is growing even if church attendance, etc. are dropping.

    And the fact it's growing is proved quite simply by the expansion of publicly-funded religious education. If the influence were not growing, the public funding would be denied.

    There are other indicators also, but the one I've brought up is quite enough.
    I'd like to see hard facts back that up. I think what you're seeing is non-Christian religions looking to get the same treatment, hence the surge of Islam schools. I think it's temporary due to the influx of new immigrants from a wider array of cultures. Over time, as religion declines, you'll see all this fall away.

    The whole point of the thread is to recognize that these different school systems are costly and ineffective, and we should scrap it like the few other provinces that even had it have already done (most other provinces have never had anything but a secular system).
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.
    Don't offer it. If parents want to enroll their children in special extracurricular activities, that should come out of their pocket, not from taxpayers. That's an investment each person should have to personally choose to make.

    Thanks for clarifying...we share the same stand +/-

    Tom

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post

    I am not talking about the ancient and not so ancient content of what various people consider scripture, but rather about the absolute fact that the religious content of our political discourse has increased in the last fifteen, and perhaps even thirty-five, years.
    I would suggest that religion has become more visible/more vocal is due to the very fact that fewer people are religious.

    If the majority of the country is a practicing Christian (i.e. the Canada of a few generations ago) then there really is nothing for the fervently religious people to discuss because everybody is already doing what "they" want anyways.

    As fewer people participate actively in religion, those that remain then galvanize and this becomes an issue for them to discuss/worry about.

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    All schoolboards are a throwback to the 19th century.
    The trustees are typically former educators and the boards simply serve to protect teachers interests. Eliminate the administration costs and the feather-bedded unions and spend the money on front line education.
    Give parents vouchers for the value of a childs education and make the schools truly compete for students.
    With school based budgeting the schools are already doing most of the administrative work anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing.
    I said the influence of religion on politics (and therefore on society as a whole) is growing even if church attendance, etc. are dropping.

    And the fact it's growing is proved quite simply by the expansion of publicly-funded religious education. If the influence were not growing, the public funding would be denied.

    There are other indicators also, but the one I've brought up is quite enough.
    The influence of religion you are referring to does not have influence on politics. It doesn't really have influence on educational spending either, unless you count Islamic schools and other religious schools propping up. Increased funding is largely due to inflation rates, growing population needed to be accommodated, increases in teacher salaries, and other direct expenditures.

    If religion influenced politics, we would be outlawing abortions, promoting abstinence, and suppressing gay rights. If religion influenced politics, Canada would be a theocracy.

    Realistically, one could argue that a religious school receiving public funding would be in direct violation of separation of church and state mandates. But that's just me thinking.
    Last edited by lpasternak1; 25-04-2011 at 11:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.
    Don't offer it. If parents want to enroll their children in special extracurricular activities, that should come out of their pocket, not from taxpayers. That's an investment each person should have to personally choose to make.

    Thanks for clarifying...we share the same stand +/-

    Tom
    Same here, this would be my view as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lpasternak1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing.
    I said the influence of religion on politics (and therefore on society as a whole) is growing even if church attendance, etc. are dropping.

    And the fact it's growing is proved quite simply by the expansion of publicly-funded religious education. If the influence were not growing, the public funding would be denied.

    There are other indicators also, but the one I've brought up is quite enough.
    The influence of religion you are referring to does not have influence on politics. It doesn't really have influence on educational spending either, unless you count Islamic schools and other religious schools propping up. Increased funding is largely due to inflation rates, growing population needed to be accommodated, increases in teacher salaries, and other direct expenditures.

    If religion influenced politics, we would be outlawing abortions, promoting abstinence, and suppressing gay rights. If religion influenced politics, Canada would be a theocracy.

    Realistically, one could argue that a religious school receiving public funding would be in direct violation of separation of church and state mandates. But that's just me thinking.
    There is not and never has been any doctrine of the separation of church and state in Canada.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Jeremy/Chmiltz

    Referring to my above quote...

    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.

    Tom
    Tom, I'm neither Jeremy nor Chmilz, but the programs you listed are offered within the public school system. In fact, Edmonton Public Schools offers a Christian based program called Logos.
    http://districtsite.epsb.ca/root/Sho...?Program_ID=25

    This would support the argument there is no need for two separate school systems. Catholic instruction could be offered within the existing public system, thereby reducing administrative and infrastructure costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Jeremy/Chmiltz

    Referring to my above quote...

    I do understand your position as mine is not terribly different, but I fail to understand how we can support special programming as noted and not support "selected" others...seems hypocritical, but I am hoping you can explain so I can understand better.

    Tom
    Tom, I'm neither Jeremy nor Chmilz, but the programs you listed are offered within the public school system. In fact, Edmonton Public Schools offers a Christian based program called Logos.
    http://districtsite.epsb.ca/root/Sho...?Program_ID=25

    This would support the argument there is no need for two separate school systems. Catholic instruction could be offered within the existing public system, thereby reducing administrative and infrastructure costs.
    Seriously, what a stupid waste of taxpayers money. You want to go to a special school because science class confuses you, pay for it yourself.

  31. #31

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    The other schools are not a seperate system tho?

    Hockey schools do not have their own board, ect.

    If there was a Christian school, but from Edmonton Public, that could be a fair option.

    But two seperate systems is just a waste of money. You can still respect everyones right to choose their style of education under 1 system.
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    Not sure how much money would actually be saved if separate and public school systems are merged into one. Avoidance of duplicate school boards, yes, but infrastructure and transportation costs will need to be incurred regardless of which banner flies over the school building.
    Speaking from experience as a parent of three high school graduates, the competition offered by two competing school systems in our community did a lot to eleveate the calibre of educational programming offered by each. Not sure how a monopoly will make that better.
    Also, want to suggest that separate schools generally do a good job of instilling strong moral values in kids which in turn prepares them to be compassionate and contributing members to society when they are adults - not a bad thing in my view.

  33. #33

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    ^I agree, I think the competition is a good thing. Monopolies are never good, especially not government run ones. You always end up with wasteage / lack of effort. Both school systems are kept more honest by having competition, I was impressed when our kids entered elementary that two schools had to present / compete for them. It was interesting to see the different options the schools presented, I don't think that would be possible under one board.

    I also know parents who have moved kids from the public system to separate due to issues with bullying that they were unable to resolve in the public system. I think its good for parents to have that option, regardless of your religious belief (I am atheist).

  34. #34

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    Hmmmm send my kid to M.E. Lazerte, or send him to Archbishop O'Leary? O'leary it is! I really don't want to have my kid so enveloped in the dream of multiculturalism that's very prominent in the public school system. There are some of us who do not want multiculturalism believe it or not. Go ahead and call me a racist, as a matter of fact, I'm in an inter-racial marriage, and my child is inter-racial. I really don't care.

  35. #35

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    ^Might be the dumbest comment I've read on C2E, pardon if you find that offensive.

    Basically what you said there is that you're racist against yourself and are trying to paint your kid white and send him to what you believe is white-school.

    Newsflash, there's a lot of different cultures in the Catholic system as well. Cultures are not the same as religions. There's lots of Christian arabs, blacks, etc.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^Might be the dumbest comment I've read on C2E, pardon if you find that offensive.

    Basically what you said there is that you're racist against yourself and are trying to paint your kid white and send him to what you believe is white-school.

    Newsflash, there's a lot of different cultures in the Catholic system as well. Cultures are not the same as religions. There's lots of Christian arabs, blacks, etc.
    I'm not racist at all. I just don't buy into multicultarlism and feel as though it's being force fed to everyone. Not everybody is on board. I'm a proponent of assimilation more than anything. Why do you asusme that I'm white?

  37. #37

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    I don't assume you're white. It's not important. You stated that your kid isn't white, but you want him to go to what you think is a white school.

    Also, all those kids from other cultures in the schools? They're being assimilated. How else do you think it happens? Feed them Vitamin Assimilation until they're cured of their non-Canadianism?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I don't assume you're white. It's not important. You stated that your kid isn't white, but you want him to go to what you think is a white school.

    Also, all those kids from other cultures in the schools? They're being assimilated. How else do you think it happens? Feed them Vitamin Assimilation until they're cured of their non-Canadianism?
    I never stated that my kid wasn't white. Those kids are being assimilated? Try going to Londonderry mall for lunch on a weekday and see how well those kids assimilate with each other.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    I really don't want to have my kid so enveloped in the dream of multiculturalism that's very prominent in the public school system.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't think either Catholic or public schools target anybody of any specific race.

    It sounds to me like you're saying you don't want your kids to associate with any non-white kids. (I am assuming that you consider the Catholic schools to be predominantly white, accurate or not.)

  40. #40

    Default Edmonton Catholic Schools is not "separate"

    Another thing that really galls me is the convenient misnomer that Catholic schools in Alberta and Ontario are somehow "separate."

    I have always forcefully opposed that incorrect term as this supposed "separate" entity is 100 per cent funded by taxpayers and is supposed to conform to 100 per cent of the provincial education curriculum.

    The term "separate" is simply a modern means to soft-sell Catholic indoctrination and perpetuate the myth that a separate (albeit duplicate) school system is somehow superior to the public school system.

    In short, if you want to be separate ... you should pay 100 per cent of all costs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lpasternak1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that religion is growing.
    I said the influence of religion on politics (and therefore on society as a whole) is growing even if church attendance, etc. are dropping.

    And the fact it's growing is proved quite simply by the expansion of publicly-funded religious education. If the influence were not growing, the public funding would be denied.

    There are other indicators also, but the one I've brought up is quite enough.
    The influence of religion you are referring to does not have influence on politics. It doesn't really have influence on educational spending either, unless you count Islamic schools and other religious schools propping up. Increased funding is largely due to inflation rates, growing population needed to be accommodated, increases in teacher salaries, and other direct expenditures.

    If religion influenced politics, we would be outlawing abortions, promoting abstinence, and suppressing gay rights. If religion influenced politics, Canada would be a theocracy.

    Realistically, one could argue that a religious school receiving public funding would be in direct violation of separation of church and state mandates. But that's just me thinking.
    There is not and never has been any doctrine of the separation of church and state in Canada.
    No, there isn't a direct quote or doctrine. However, it would seem present as we don't approve of bronze-aged ideas that religion can bring forth. Also, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that certain freedoms are guaranteed and are subject "only to such reasonable limits that prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

    In addition to that, the very fact that Canada is not a theocracy can attest to the idea that we uphold the notion that there is separation of church and state.
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  42. #42
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    ^Nonsense. The Charter begins with the words "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God". We are an explicitly theist nation. And since RC's remain the biggest single cult (denomination, whatever), they obviously get to have their own school boards.

    It is a non-issue.

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    I find it interesting that last I checked Canada spent the OECD average on education per student (at least at the secondary level).... so really not that much especially since there are a few provinces practicing the dual-systems philosophy. We spend less than the U.S. and the U.K. However, we are consistently very high scoring on international tests.

    So let me see: a system that isn't costing us a bunch in comparison with other countries, a really great result, what is the problem?


    P.S. Logos hasn't been particularly happy with all of the choices Edmonton Public has made, so it isn't necessarily easy to be under the umbrella of Public schools while maintaining a denominational standpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decade View Post
    So let me see: a system that isn't costing us a bunch in comparison with other countries, a really great result, what is the problem?
    We must rid the world of christians/catholics. They are evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Nonsense. The Charter begins with the words "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God". We are an explicitly theist nation. And since RC's remain the biggest single cult (denomination, whatever), they obviously get to have their own school boards.

    It is a non-issue.
    Where do the churches etc: fit into all of this. You know, those things that are dotted all over the country. Build by the followers of that particular religion to teach the faithful all about their religion. The fathers, priests, pulpit bashers etc: that are waiting for the faithful to show up at the doors so that they can preach the doctorine. Oh, wait, it's the school responsibility to do that. No wonder on any given Sunday you can fire a cannon in any given church and not hit anyone.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    I started this tread to see what views are, when we all 'benefit'...


    Should Christmas remain a stat holiday?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    No wonder on any given Sunday you can fire a cannon in any given church and not hit anyone.
    Go to Saint Thomas More Catholic Church in Edmonton on Sunday and you will find it full for each of three Masses.
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    To me the funding should be student based for the lower grades, course based for high school. Funding should change a bit depending on if this is in classroom schooling versus internet or video conferencing schooling.

    Asides than that, I could care less if the school was atheist, Catholic or even the Unification Church (AKA Moonies) so as long as they teach the curriculum effectively.

    But if we do have public school boards then I do think that Morinville MUST have public schools and not this half *ssed job they are currently reluctant to provide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Asides than that, I could care less if the school was atheist, Catholic or even the Unification Church (AKA Moonies) so as long as they teach the curriculum effectively.
    How much less?
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    I could care less than I care about the Calgary Flames (AKA not at all).

    While teachers all over complain about standardized testing they really hate the fact that all students are measured using the same tool. If we have system that allows for differences in delivery than we need to measure the students uniformly to see if the students are getting an effective education.

    "I don’t represent children. I represent the teachers."
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    Last edited by sundance; 13-01-2012 at 10:01 AM.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    While teachers all over complain about standardized testing they really hate the fact that all students are measured using the same tool. If we have system that allows for differences in delivery than we need to measure the students uniformly to see if the students are getting an effective education.


    [/I]
    I agree, however, I don't think that the standardized testing should be used to "punish" certain schools for poor performance unless they are looked at within a context. For example, an inner-city school with a ESL population over 70% or a school that has special programming for low-cognitive students who must still take P.A.Ts should not be expected to do as well as a Charter school that doesn't have to accept these students due to a lack of programming for them or even a school out in a wealthier suburb who doesn't deal with children moving in and our of foster care on a weekly basis. Context should certainly be part of a performance review of a school. I guess what I am saying is that P.A.T.s should be kept but they shouldn't mean that a school has to stress out the children to do well because the government is stupid about it.

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    I am non-religious (believer but not into organized religion). I have no problem if someone wants to have some religious programming within the school- The EPSB allows a Jewish and a Muslim school , so, the same could be arranged for a few more Catholic-focused schools.
    What I don't like is the hypocrisy of calling it 'separate' or the duplications (in money and other resources) involved in having a whole different board/admin/school structure.
    An inclusive EPSB with a few religious schools might be able to satisfy most needs.

    On a different note, I just don't see what 'race' has got to do with Catholic versus Secular education. Given that the Phillipines (over 80% RC) is our biggest immigrant source country and many aboriginals are Catholics too, I am quite surprised that RC schools are thought of as 'white' !!

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    I'm not saying standardized testing should be used to "punish" schools, but with different educational methods how else can you assure an adequate education is being delivered?

    Any "punishment" should be decided by the parents choosing to enroll (or not) their children in the school of their wishes.

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