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Thread: Is this the end of the Liberal Party?

  1. #101
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    Liberals knew that many Canadians does not want election for the 4 th time in 7 yrs but they choose to force an election because Tories broke parliamentary laws. Canadians does not show interest whatever Tories did but does not want an election period. Liberals went for it and suffered a crushing defeat and causing Iggy to lose his seat. end of story.
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  2. #102
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    I realize. I am saying that these 48% outside of Quebec and 40% of all Canadians got it wrong. They have essentially allowed the governing party to get away from breaking the democratic rules of the country that they were governing. That is a very bad precedent to set. We should not be giving up on our parliamentary rules and procedures.

    Canadians should care whether the governing party discloses to parliament how our public money is being spent. Full disclosure is essential so that we, Canadians, can exercise our democratic rights and communicate with our elected officials. We should also care about our MPs having full access to information about government expenditures before they vote on different legislation.

    This wasn't about installing left handed or right handed door handles. The contempt of parliament was about full disclosure of the crime prevention legsilation and the amount of money it would cost us. Witholding costing information from Parliamet–the body that in essence approves expenditures on our behalf–is never ok and we, Canadians, should care about stuff like that.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Liberals knew that many Canadians does not want election for the 4 th time in 7 yrs but they choose to force an election because Tories broke parliamentary laws. Canadians does not show interest whatever Tories did but does not want an election period. Liberals went for it and suffered a crushing defeat and causing Iggy to lose his seat. end of story.
    that is the problem and the fault of Canadians (the 40% who voted conservative), not the Liberal party. Breaking parliamentary procedure as a matter of principle deserves strong consequences at the ballot box.

    I really don't care about voter fatigue. Any time parliamentary rules are broken, the party breaking them has to pay the price. Our democratic institutions depend on taking a strong stance in this respect.

  4. #104

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    ^The Conservatives presented a budget that costed out all of their programs. The Liberals could chose to support that, or to to challenge it / not support it. They chose to not support it, that's a political decision no matter how much you wrap it up in select committee rhetoric about wanting to micro detail ever costing item estimate (and they are just estimates, details of which previous Liberal governments never had to supply to win budget approval). We will see what the true, not estimated, costs are over the next four years. I expect the Conservatives will do well and balance the budget / eliminate the deficit in 3 or 4 years time, but the proof one way or the other will be in the pudding which will be fully transparent.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-05-2011 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^The Conservatives presented a budget that costed out all of their programs. The Liberals could chose to support that, or to to challenge it / not support it. They chose to not support it, that's a political decision no matter how much you wrap it up in select committee rhetoric about wanting to micro detail ever costing item estimate (and they are just estimates, details of which previous Liberal governments never had to supply to win budget approval). We will see what the true, not estimated, costs are over the next four years.
    the confidence vote had nothing to do with the budget... would you like the wording played back to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I expect the Conservatives will do well and balance the budget / eliminate the deficit in 3 or 4 years time, but the proof one way or the other will be in the pudding which will be fully transparent.
    not withstanding your "expectations", nothing in the Conservative fiscal track record suggests they will be able to eliminate the deficit... the lil' leprechaun Flaherty has no such magic in either his provincial or federal record.

    and really, c'mon... "fully transparent"! Really? These are the Harper Conservatives you're speaking about - right?

  6. #106
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    ^^^ confidence vote is why Liberal have forced an election because Tories broke the rules at the house of commons. I can understand that but why can't liberals wait till 2012 or 2013 , then Tories can call an election. once election is called, liberals can prove to the public what Tories did at the Parliament, the voters can decide for themselves which party is best to lead but liberals have rush to judgment on Tories far too early which has cost liberals a few seats and losing its leader.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    ^^^ confidence vote is why Liberal have forced an election because Tories broke the rules at the house of commons. I can understand that but why can't liberals wait till 2012 or 2013 , then Tories can call an election. once election is called, liberals can prove to the public what Tories did at the Parliament, the voters can decide for themselves which party is best to lead but liberals have rush to judgment on Tories far too early which has cost liberals a few seats and losing its leader.
    The Liberals should not have waited for the same reason the police does not wait to lay charges when a crime is committed. If you break the laws, you should have to answer for your actions as soon as possible.

    Canadians (the 40% or 48% or whatever) have excercised their democratic right to give up some of our democratic rights to having an open and transparent government. The vote excused misconduct. More than that, the vote rewarded the misconduct. That was a huge mistake. We should not take things like that for granted and look the other way just because we are too lazy to go to the polls an extra time.

  8. #108
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    Remember in early Mulroney years, Tories won the biggest landslide winning 211 seats and liberal have suffered huge losses of seats from 147 to 40 and 1988 liberal have made a little recovery from 40 to 83, anyway for Tories it went from 211 in 1984 to 169 in 1988 then mulorney have resigned in 1993 due to that Tories is at all time low of popularity poll and he was replaced by Kim Campbell. Kim did call an election which led Tories to the biggest defeat in canadian history from having won only 2 seats from 169 seats . Voters were very patiently wait till 5 years Tories's mandate is done, Tories were punished by the voters in an election because of Mulroney. I remember very well that year which my mom and dad and the public have voiced their anger at the Mulroneys because Tories introduce GST to help cut down debts but did not do much about it. voters should be patient and wait till Tories have done their 5 yrs mandate then Harper himself can call an election, then public can decide for themselves to whether to keep supporting Tories or not.
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  9. #109
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    ^ the anger there was due to the GST, not the fact that a political party broke the rules of parliament. (Although there was also the helicopter deal... questionable dealing between Mulroney and that arms dealer surfaced much later and did not involve the whole party).

    A closer comparison was with the Liberals under Chretien. They did a bad thing with the adscam. They paid a price at the polls for that (and a suspicion of multiple other transgressions). The electorate got it right then, even if they had elected the party that does not represent most of my political views. Canadians got it right then because the punished a party for not respecting our democratic rules of transperency, full disclosure, and acting in ethical and legal manner.

    This time around, the elctorate got it wrong. The party that was elected to bring transparency and ethics to government (the chief slogan of the conservatives when they beat out the liberals) instead used their position to try and mislead parliament. Voting for them again to the tune of a majority government is a huge mistake and a very short sighted, stupid thing so many of Canadians had done. Out of principle, we should never ever vote for parties that break our own rules. That is the only way to ensure politics is done with integrity.

  10. #110
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    Huge (!!!) difference between Adscam/Sponsorship scandal and this trumped up charge. Not even on the same planet in terms of scandal.

    A committee, dominated by members of the opposition parties, on a witch hunt looking for anything they could use to smear the government, because they, in their infinite stupidity, wanted to force an election.

    Regardless of whether we think it's important, it PREDICTABLY had ZERO traction outside of political junkies and those with an axe to grind determined to vote against the Conservatives anyway. The media barely cared, and abandoned the issue when they found few gave a crap.

    Canadians, by and large, don't care much about Parliamentary procedures. And they don't care about this. If there was a top ten list of government issues most Canadians were concerned with, this wouldn't be anywhere close. They care about their well being and that of their friends, families, and neighbours. It's so blindingly obvious.

    "It's the economy, stupid!" - Bill Clinton

    They should have brought the government down on the budget. It was only days away. That's something people can understand. Could it be they (the Liberals) knew it was a good budget similar to one they'd put forward?

    Again, the Liberals made the biggest blunder in Canadian political history. There's no denying it. Really, really dumb move from someone who was supposed to be brilliant. If Ignatieff's so smart, how come he did so many dumb things? I even like the guy, but there were too many head scratching moments.

    What happened was most Canadians not only didn't care about the contempt charge, but they didn't want an election. And by forcing one, the Liberals showed they cared more about themselves than the people.

    Trying to outflank the NDP was dumb, though that started with Dion. Then Ignatieff refused to categorically deny he'd form a coalition until it was too late. Then he responds to a backlash and changes his mind a day later, making himself look like someone who'd say anything at all to win. His unfathomably dumb answer to Layton's attendance charge sealed his fate.

    They gave the centre away to the Conservatives. All the Conservatives have to do now is govern reasonably and disprove the "hidden agenda" evil neo-con bogeyman trotted out regularly by the ideologically bankrupt left.

    D'oh.

    And now they seem to be piling dumb on top of stupid, with Chretien and Broadbent looking for a merger between the Libs and ND's. Unbelievable. Abandoning the centre was idiotic. And now they seem to want to make it even worse. And having Chretien involved in any way is a really bad idea. He's gone out of his way to destroy the Liberal Party, out of spite, and they've never really recovered.

    I'd be a classic Liberal in that I'm socially progressive and fiscally conservative. It's people like me that used to elect the Liberals. Now they've abandoned us. I hope they get it together and come back strong. I want a great alternative. But it seems they're determined to commit suicide.
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  11. #111
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    I disagree that the Liberals schemed for an election. They brought down the government because their base (university educated professionals) would not stand for them continuing to prop up a government that had broken laws. It was clear that they were so scared of scandals that they didn't want to even be seen to be supporting the government in any way, and become associated with the numerous conservative potential-scandals. The Liberal supporters seem much less tolerant of any potential scandals than the conservative supporters - who seem willing to overlook what can only be described as abuses of power in the hopes the party will implement hard-conservative policies. I would hypothesize that the NDP would also be more immune to scandals. Again because their base is ideological and dogmatic as much as the conservatives are and desperately want their policies implemented.

    Too bad the Liberals overestimated the intellegience and attention span of the canadian public - "this problem with the government sounds too complicated, oh well, let's go back to watching CSI - I can understand that! Geez, all politicians are bad"

    This is probably the thought process of a good 60% of us when there is a complex series of problems with one political party that simply takes too much effort to unravel and understand.

  12. #112
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    Jimbo, what was huge is difference in the amounts of Adscam (some $300 million) and the money wasted by the conservatives (about a billion for G8/G20 with several hundred million diverted to questionable projects). The rest is the same. Being untruthful with parliament and not disclosing the cost of proposed programs is not some "trumped up charge". Either you present the information or you do not. The conservative government did not present the information about the cost of their law and order bills. The parliament could not, then, in good faith discuss and debate the bill. It was misleading to the public and a breach of parliamentary rules. It also goes against the principles of good and transparent government–something that every one of every political leaning should support.

    Voting for the conservatives in the face of this was stupid and incredible short sighted.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Voting for the conservatives in the face of this was stupid and incredible short sighted.
    Thanks for calling 48% of voters outside Quebec, and 67% of voters in Alberta, stupid. Of course, you imagine you are "smart" though. Even though you can't tell the difference between government spending (and all governments spend money sometimes inefficiently e.g. billion dollar gun registry) and effectual fraud with a view to personally / party / friends benefiting.
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-05-2011 at 08:08 AM.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Thanks for calling 48% of voters outside Quebec...
    you keep pushing this number... and I'll keep asking and pointing out. Do you not consider Quebec a legitimate part of Canada? You were shown, pointedly, that a 12 riding Conservative majority (based upon selected ridings outside of Quebec) reflects upon a mere ~5300 vote differential... one directly attributed to vote splitting. After just one election result, you trotted out absolute puffery and made the most grandiose claim that Quebec will never be required for a majority - ever again! Wow!

    when pressed to qualify your separatist bent, you so graciously offered a "no longer required" comeback. Really? Wow, your separtist leanings would appear to align with a mere vote split attributed ~5300 vote differential. Do you always swing in the wind that easily?

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Voting for the conservatives in the face of this was stupid and incredible short sighted.
    Thanks for calling 48% of voters outside Quebec, and 67% of voters in Alberta, stupid.
    you are welcome.

    ps someone had to… hopefully next time people actually notice issues of transparency and abuse of power when they cast a ballot… not holding my breath. If I did, I would look like Jeff's favourite
    Last edited by grish; 09-05-2011 at 09:24 AM.

  16. #116
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    Of course, you imagine you are "smart" though. Even though you can't tell the difference between government spending (and all governments spend money sometimes inefficiently e.g. billion dollar gun registry) and effectual fraud with a view to personally / party / friends benefiting.
    it wasn't an "inefficient spending". The g8/g20 spending problem had to do with a request from parliament to fund one project with money directed to fund something completely different with close freinds benefiting. Glad you see the similarities between that and adscam.

    It was the biggest issue in this campaign that got ignored: misleading the parliament is never ok and should never have been ignored. it was stupid to reward the conservative party with a win after they had been found in contempt of parliament.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    when pressed to qualify your separatist bent, you so graciously offered a "no longer required" comeback. Really? Wow, your separtist leanings would appear to align with a mere vote split attributed ~5300 vote differential. Do you always swing in the wind that easily?
    I have said it, I don't mind if Quebec separates. The fact that they chose to vote for an NDP party, after years of supporting a separatist party, doesn't really matter to me.

    The hard reality Quebec doesn't understand is that if they separate, they will be economically bankrupt without Alberta's equalization. I'm tired of "paying off" Quebec to keep them in Federation. The last straw for me, was when their politicians attacked a hydro program supported by the Federal government for a neighboring province, to me, it was just petty, arogant, and incredibly hypocritical.

    I hope the Conservatives, now they don't need Quebec's votes for a majority, reduce the hand outs. I realize its probably a false hope, but one can hope.
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-05-2011 at 09:29 AM.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    when pressed to qualify your separatist bent, you so graciously offered a "no longer required" comeback. Really? Wow, your separtist leanings would appear to align with a mere vote split attributed ~5300 vote differential. Do you always swing in the wind that easily?
    I have said it, I don't mind if Quebec separates. The fact that they chose to vote for an NDP party, after years of supporting a separatist party, doesn't really matter to me.

    The hard reality Quebec doesn't understand is that if they separate, they will be economically bankrupt without Alberta's equalization. I'm tired of "paying off" Quebec to keep them in Federation. The last straw for me, was when their politicians attacked a hydro program supported by the Federal government for a neighboring province, to me, it was just petty, arogant, and incredibly hypocritical.

    I hope the Conservatives, now they don't need Quebec's votes for a majority, reduce the hand outs. I realize its probably a false hope, but one can hope.
    no, no, no... the, my question context, was western separatism... perhaps my misunderstanding on some of your comments. In any case, even accepting this, your latest reply, your degree of federalism seems tailored/weak.

    you clearly don't understand Quebec voters... the fact they so dramatically shifted to the NDP simply highlights there is little separatist alignment within Quebec... or, at least, not at the moment. Quebecois certainly were not voting BQ for any separatist intents... see Mulroney and the rise of the BQ for a/the rationale behind initial BQ support. Of course, many are concerned over the anticipated inability of Layton/NDP to make any difference for Quebec (or progressive Canadians at large)... that, coupled with Harper simply being Harper.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Jimbo, what was huge is difference in the amounts of Adscam (some $300 million) and the money wasted by the conservatives (about a billion for G8/G20 with several hundred million diverted to questionable projects). The rest is the same.
    Oh my god... Yes, the costs were different, but there is a HUGE difference between a massive political corruption scandal like Adscam, and hosting a world leaders summit that turned out to be expensive.

  20. #120
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    ^ no, the gun registry turned out to be "expensive."

    the g8/g20 didn't turn out to be expensive, rather under the pretext of paying for improvements to border crossings the conservative government directed the funds to projects of their freinds with no direct links to the summit. It is EXACTLY like the adscam.

    Misleading the parliament about the purpose of the approved funding is fraud and should be punished by the voters on principle (more so when money is wasted in the process).

  21. #121
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    Grish, Adscam involved the Liberals issuing contracts for non-existent work and then the beneficiaries of those contracts funnelling a portion of the money back to the Liberals in the form of cash donations.
    If you have evidence that this happened with G8/G20 contracts then you should be contacting the RCMP.

  22. #122
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    ralph, g8 spending involved conservatives asking the parliament to approve funds for thins like border crossings. Instead they used the money to help out their friends in building things that had nothing to do with the event, but were to assist with general tourism and trickle down money in the pockets of said friends.

    the crime bill that they introduced to parliament did not contain information about the costs necessary for the parliament to make informed decision about support for the legislation.

    the elctions scam was used to circumvent the elections canada rules and spending limits by funnelling national campaign funds into local ridings "for a while" and then being used to buy national advertisements.

    the conservatives have used parliamentary mail priveleges of the MP's (such as Laurie Hawn to mail Toronto's Eglinotn-Lawrence riding). The pamphlets contained partisan party-specific information.

    The conservatives used their discression with resepct to government advertisment to spend close to $30 million over the period of a few months leading up to the election call of public funds to promote their own initiatives as the election was becoming more and more certain.

    ----------------

    The Liberals were found to have broken laws, and subsequently they had paid at the polls

    The conservatives were found in contempt of parliament for misleading the parliament, and the courts have already implicated the party to have been in breach of elections canada rules (subject to an appeal). Unlike the liberals, the conservatives were rewarded with a majority government. That is what I describe as "stupid" and "very short sighted" by so many of us who voted conservative. A government must be punished or at the very least not rewarded when they break the rules.

    If we ever hope to teach our politicians to be honest with the electorate, we should never elect those who are crooks. Seems very straightforward to me, but aparently not to the 40% of Canadians including the 67% of Albertans and 48% of people not living in Quebec.
    Last edited by grish; 09-05-2011 at 03:41 PM.

  23. #123

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    ^I take it you won't be calling the RCMP then because you have no evidence, and have seen none, that actually indicates a fraud? All this boils down to, is you don't like what the Conservative minority government spent money on, and accordingly, it was "illegal" in your mind.

  24. #124
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    not in my mind, moahunter. nice try. the election part of what I had outlined has gone through the courts already. courts are a huge part of our legal system. the misleading of parliament has gone through the parliamentary committee that has the tradition of ruling on such motions. the g8 spending is up for a review of the auditor general. the outcome of it we will hear shortly.

    You are right is saying "you don't like". You're just having difficulty writing it down what exactly that I do not like: I do not like when politicians bend and break our rules. At election time the elctorate has only one responsibility: reward the politicians who do good and punish those who do bad. the 40% of failed to live up to that responsibility. I take it, you were one of those people.

  25. #125

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    ^so if it is not in your mind, where is the RCMP investigation into these "illegal" or "crooked" activities, concerning the G8? Illegal and Crooked is not the same as "wasteful" which is something the Auditor General always finds (this is a government filled with useless civil service burecrats we are writing about).

  26. #126
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    it has gone beyond the RCMP and directly into the courts who ultimately pass the judgement. RCMP can only investigate, but the judgement is reserved for the judges. The same with the parliamentary committees and the speaker of the house. A committee investigates, but the speaker rules on the investigation.

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^so if it is not in your mind, where is the RCMP investigation into these "illegal" or "crooked" activities, concerning the G8? Illegal and Crooked is not the same as "wasteful" which is something the Auditor General always finds (this is a government filled with useless civil service burecrats we are writing about).
    ahem... speaking of the Auditor General... surely you must be aware of the multi-draft version leaks of her report on the G8. Surely you must be aware of the last minute scramble by Conservatives to ensure her final report wasn't released before the election... surely, no? There is no disputing the facts, as grish related, that Parliament approved the contentious funding for "border services". Perhaps you might take leave and speak to all that additional spending, hundreds of miles from any border on items completely unrelated to border services/security, keyed to Conservative pork-barreling (see the outrageous spending within Tony Clement's riding, etc.). In any case, if nothing else, the Conservative G8/G20 2-day brazillion dollar spendapoolza, beats any kind of money associated with the so-called "adscam" - hands down!

    you certainly are quite bold in your assessment of the Conservative G8/G20 spending - or are you privy to the Auditor General's, as yet, unreleased final report?

    Auditor's draft report alleges Tories misspent G8 funds... I guess we'll see if the Conservatives will be successful in having the language of the early drafts "tempered" - hey?

  28. #128

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    ^mispending (something every government I can ever remember has done, its the same civil service they all have to put up with), and even not following burecratic procedures set in place by requests by the opposition parties, is not the same as "criminal", "illegal" or "crooked".
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-05-2011 at 05:20 PM.

  29. #129
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    ^ some of the players possibly facing criminal charges with respect to elections canada notwithstanding, not voting these people out is an incredibly shortsighted and stupid thing that the 40% of Canadians had done regardless of the adjective you use. I for one do not want a government that does not follow bureaucratic procedure or elections canada rules or that misleads the parliament with respect to cost of programs.

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    for years, liberals and Tories does get hit with a scandal or two, sometimes three and it is very likey that we will never have scandal free government now or in the future.

    some politicians is crooked, greed or whatever you name it. most of them are in "get rich quick " scheme by doing illlegal lobby to get contracts. some MP doesn't care if they broke Parilmentary rules and get away with it.
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    for years, liberals and Tories does get hit with a scandal or two, sometimes three and it is very likey that we will never have scandal free government now or in the future.
    of course not if we continue to reward these guys with majority governments. the only weapon we have–the election box–has misfired on this election.

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    These are some of the results of the sponsorship scandal:

    Jean Brault-sentenced to 30 months in prison.
    Chuck Guite'-sentenced to 42 months in prison
    Jean Lafleur=sentenced to 42 months in prison and ordered to pay back $1.6 million to the federal government.

    The Liberal Party of Canada-reduced to irrelevance.

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    Liberals could postpone choosing new leader of the party for year.
    Liberals must never choose Toronto MP Bob Rae who is once a Premier of Ontario under NDP banner which did devastated its economy and drive up huge debts to be new liberal leader.

    http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...leader-110509/
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    These are some of the results of the sponsorship scandal:

    Jean Brault-sentenced to 30 months in prison.
    Chuck Guite'-sentenced to 42 months in prison
    Jean Lafleur=sentenced to 42 months in prison and ordered to pay back $1.6 million to the federal government.

    The Liberal Party of Canada-reduced to irrelevance.
    right. exactly.

    the entire conservative party was found in contempt of parliament and several of its members are waiting for an appeal to a judicial ruling that they have breached elections canada rules, and the punishment is a greater seat count in the parliament. not very consistent of the electorate.

    perhaps this is due to people having a certain expectation of the liberals to have been honest and good. so when the scandals broke the people were shocked. that and the economy was doing well–nothing else to focus the mind. the thing with the concervatives is that they got a free pass as people are in panic over employment and not really tuning into the abuses of power. While this shortsightedness can be explained, it cannot be excused. No party should deserve a vote if it elects to bend the laws and ignore the rules.

  35. #135
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    Grish wrote:
    "perhaps this is due to people having a certain expectation of the liberals to have been honest and good. so when the scandals broke the people were shocked."
    Yeah right, and they found Unicorns living in Banff!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkW-EAkClbE

  36. #136
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    I am just trying to rationlize it from your point of view, ralph. if the elctorate decided to punish the liberals for being corrupt, why would the same electorate pass the opportunity to punish the conservatives for being corrupt? same crime, different punishment. what gives? why excuse them now? this is a very stupid and short sighted thing that we had done. no wonder we have such low expectations of our politicians. there is no incentive for the bad guys to leave. in fact, they just get promoted to PM without an opposition.

  37. #137
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    ^Grish, stop treating Canadians as rational human beings.

    We are not.

  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    same crime, different punishment. what gives?.
    OK, at this point its just pointless isn't it Grish? We don't have people in prison regarding the G8 or similar, in fact, we don't even have people charged with crimes that could lead to prison sentences, yet you imagine its the same. Luckily most Canadians, unlike you, can tell the difference between some paper shuffling irregularities and an actual criminal political scheme designed to personally enrich.

    And no, I don't think the Conservatives are perfect. One day in the future, it wouldn't surprise me at all if one Conservative politician or another does a criminal activity, just like the "natural governing party" did, and there is some evidence Mulroney may have done. As of right now though, there is nothing to indicate Harper or any of his senior ministers did anything criminal for the benefit of themselves personally, or the benefit of the Conservative party. The "worst" we have is taking advantage of a spending loophole (which would have been orchestrated lower in the party by some bright folks I'm guessing), something I certainly don't know if was right or wrong, and am I sure will result in financial penalties for the Conservative party if it turns out it wasn't legitimate.
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-05-2011 at 12:21 AM.

  39. #139

    Default Which Liberal Party does Canada need?

    Does the country still need the Liberal Party of Canada? It depends which Liberal party you mean. If you mean the Liberal party of Wilfrid Laurier, a collection of 19th-century liberals who cherished individual freedom and enterprise, we most certainly need that kind of party but, after the demise of the Reform party, seem unlikely to get it from any quarter, the Conservatives included.
    Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/de...#ixzz1Lvh71puF

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    I am just trying to rationalize it from your point of view, ralph.
    truly - apparently, misappropriation of funds means something different if it's G8/G20 funding that's been misappropriated by Conservatives... misappropriated funding... said to be... well above and beyond adscam levels. Harper names a new AG at the end of the month... perhaps he can get him/her to bury Sheila Fraser's final audit report on the G8/G20!

  41. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    the entire conservative party was found in contempt of parliament and several of its members are waiting for an appeal to a judicial ruling that they have breached elections canada rules, and the punishment is a greater seat count in the parliament. not very consistent of the electorate.
    although blame aplenty, for completeness, perhaps the selective ralph60 should advise that of the 3 names he mentioned, 2 were private citizens and one was a civil servant.

    and yes, it was particularly galling to see those same "In&Out", (now) Conservative Senators, campaigning during the election... as if they had done nothing wrong.

  42. #142
    grish
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    Jeff, for completeness, is it not true that a private citizen or a civil servant is not, in fact, a member of the party caucus?

    --------

    This is one of those "I know the answer and I also know that you know the answer" questions. But do play along for the general information of others.

  43. #143
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    I'm sorry, adscam must have just been a big misunderstanding. Maybe you should apply to Elections Canada to have last Monday's results overturned because most of Canada just misunderstood adscam, and the registry, and Iggy and.........
    We should just appoint Liberals to run everything because gosh darn, they're so smart.
    Last edited by ralph60; 10-05-2011 at 03:18 PM.

  44. #144
    grish
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    ralph, you continue to misunderstand my point.

    The Liberals did a bad thing and got punished for it at the polls. That was good.
    The conservatives have done a bad thing and got rewarded. That was stupid and short sighted.

    That is my point.

    What did you think I was saying?

  45. #145

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    ^The conservatives didn't get rewarded for this. The public just don't care about it, it isn't a big deal (despite what political academics, and loony left activists, imagine it to be). It was dumb of the Liberal party to force an election over a non-issue when there are real issues facing Canadians, per the election results.

  46. #146
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    The public just don't care about it, it isn't a big deal
    precisely what I describe as stupid and short sighted. we should never close our eyes on corruption in any form it takes. If a political party does something such as circumventing the election rules, or misleading the parliament, or falsifying financial statements to funnel government money into the pockets of close friends, or misuse government funds to promote the individual party the elctorate needs to care, realize that it is a big deal, and punish the party come election.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    a political party does something such as circumventing the election rules, or misleading the parliament, or falsifying financial statements to funnel government money into the pockets of close friends.
    If you have evidence this happened, please contact the RCMP. If you don't, stop making up lies to support your argument.

  48. #148
    grish
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    ^ Didn't some of the Liberals correction: some of the people associated with the Liberal party (see a list a few posts previous) go to jail over that? I think they don't need me to call the RCMP anymore, do you?

    so, please apologize for accusing me of lying.
    Last edited by grish; 10-05-2011 at 03:55 PM.

  49. #149
    grish
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    moahunter,

    I was dialing the RCMP to investigate the conservatives and their in and out scheme, but aparently someone beat me to it by a couple of years:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1920146/

    In 2008 the Mounties raided Tory party headquarters in connection with the controversy over the so-called in-and-out financing scheme.

  50. #150

    Default

    ^that has nothing to do with the G8 or the select committee issue that the Liberals forced an election on.

    The unrelated issue you raise concerns whether or not a loophole that was used was legitimate or not, it is a techncial interpretation issue. That has been going through the courts for sometime, and is still under appeal.

  51. #151
    grish
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    who said anything about g8?

    I was writing a list of reasons people should not vote for a party. The election was called not because of g8.

    The election was called because when the Conservative government introduced motions and bills to change law and order legislation, they purposely left out details about the cost to the government to introduce these measures. In effect, they had asked government to vote on incomplete information. A parliament is entitled to know the cost projections of any expenditure. By not releasing these projections, the conservatives broke the rules of parliament. The parliament made several requests for the cost of the legislation to be released. The conservative refused and thus, after an investigation of parliamentary committee, they were found in contempt of parliament which automatically triggered a non-confidence motion and defeated the government.

    These attempts to ignore the rules of parliament particularly when the involve full disclosure of government spending cannot be excused. By closing eyes on this, the 40% of canadians who voted conservative made a stupid and short sighted decision. They have created precedent whereby a governing party can breach all rules of parliament with no real consequence at the poll.

  52. #152

    Default

    ^In other words, the opposition parties wanted costing estimate information on the budget, and when it didn't arrive as quickly as they wanted, they threw a hissy fit and forced an election. This was a smart move for the NDP, but a dumb one for the Bloc and Liberal Party. The electorate, tired of the hissy fits, looked at the real issues (aside from Quebec which went through a mass orange psychosis), and 48% of them voted for the Conservative party.

    Glad we sorted that one out.

  53. #153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Jeff, for completeness, is it not true that a private citizen or a civil servant is not, in fact, a member of the party caucus?

    --------

    This is one of those "I know the answer and I also know that you know the answer" questions. But do play along for the general information of others.
    gee... that's a tough one - perhaps ralph60 could advise further... perhaps he could comment on the relevance of his taking the effort to, at length, include and detail those references to the 2 private citizens and 1 civil servant... none of whom were party caucus members. Just what was ralph60 up to?

  54. #154
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^In other words, the opposition parties wanted costing estimate information on the budget, and when it didn't arrive as quickly as they wanted, they threw a hissy fit and forced an election. This was a smart move for the NDP, but a dumb one for the Bloc and Liberal Party. The electorate, tired of the hissy fits, looked at the real issues (aside from Quebec which went through a mass orange psychosis), and 48% of them voted for the Conservative party.

    Glad we sorted that one out.
    Glad you get to make stuff up as you go. The conservatives tabled the motion separate from the budget and as such, it should have been costed alongside the legislation. Them are the rules ensuring appropriate and informed decisions are made. They knew the rules and decided to ignore them. Allowing parties in power to ignore rules is a stupid and a short sighted thing to do.

  55. #155
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    I must admit that I don't care which party wins or lose but I can tell you that public is very concern about the status of economy in this country because we got hit with deep recession in 2008 but we made a recovery pretty well, but has a long way to get back the same way it was before recession hits everyone here. public don't seem to worry about political scandal much anymore because they all know there will always scandals for years to come.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  56. #156

    Default

    I've always had a suspicion that the Liberals played right into a PC trap. The PC's knew how far ahead they were in the polls and how Canadians did not want another election, so they set up a 'minor' contempt charge that they knew wouldn't be a big election issue (which the Liberals should have made into a big issue).

  57. #157
    grish
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    ^ agreed with the part that the liberals should have stuck to the message that this indeed is the big issue. The trouble with the Liberals, and actually returning to the main topic of this thread, is that their past would make it seem hypocritical. While that is not an excuse to the electorate–responsibility in the end lies with the individual to take note of abuses of authority–it does perhaps explain the elections outcome.

    The Liberals, in their attempt to rebuild, need to really make a clean break from anything in their past that could make them seem "same old". Also, they need to show much more discipline and set policy out of strong principles, rather than populism. People in the end do respect principles-based leadership.

  58. #158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Also, they need to show much more discipline and set policy out of strong principles, rather than populism. People in the end do respect principles-based leadership.
    I think part of the problem there is some of the principles of the last Liberal government aren't shared by the electorate anymore, with the Conservatives being closer. For example, the Conservatives are not as Federalist as the Liberal party. People in the West in particular don't want to be told by the Federal government in Ottawa how to run their provinces / daycare programs, gun registry, etc. It didn't used to matter so much becaue the Liberals could rely on Quebec votes.

    But without that base anymore, they need to decide which direction they go. If they want to win votes in the West, they have to stop coming up with policy from the top down, and start accepting the empowerment of the Provinces. As has been noted by a few comentators, the GTA is also becoming more like the West with people not really wanting big government centralized programs anymore.

    If they can overcome that centralist/federalist "father knows best" image hurdle which is holding them back, I think there is a place for the Liberal party. They can be a fiscal conservative alternative to the Conservative party, but more socially liberal. That would probably do quite well in Edmonton, BC and Ontario.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-05-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  59. #159
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    NDP won 2nd at poll due to protest vote is not entirely true and I believe that Liberal party have choose the wrong leader is what led to its own downfall.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

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