Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 61213141516
Results 1,501 to 1,551 of 1551

Thread: Atheism vs. Religion

  1. #1501

    Default

    Pakistan’s secret atheists - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40580196

  2. #1502
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    https://ticketstonight.ticketforce.c...s.asp?evt=3519

    I'm really interested in going to this!

  3. #1503

    Default

    Sounds to me like a good reason to create another stat holiday in September. You never know, so let's be prepared, and relaxed.

    Biblical Literalists Say End Is Coming In 'The Sign' : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR

    http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/201...ng-no-it-isn-t

  4. #1504

    Default

    I'll put off doing my laundry, just in case.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  5. #1505
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,588

    Default

    What will they say on Sept. 23 when the world remains where it is?
    I don't know exactly what they'll say, but this kind of thing has been well studied: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsd...ogical_studies

    Social scientists have found that while some group members will leave after the date for a doomsday prediction by the leader has passed uneventfully, others actually feel their belief and commitment to the group strengthened. Often when a group's doomsday prophecies or predictions fail to come true, the group leader will simply set a new date for impending doom, or predict a different type of catastrophe on a different date.[15] Niederhoffer and Kenner say: "When you have gone far out on a limb and so many people have followed you, and there is much "sunk cost," as economists would say, it is difficult to admit you have been wrong."[16]

    In Experiments With People: Revelations from Social Psychology, Abelson, Frey and Gregg explain this further: "..continuing to proselytize on behalf of a doomsday cult whose prophecies have been disconfirmed, although it makes little logical sense, makes plenty of psychological sense if people have already spent months proselytizing on the cult's behalf. Persevering allows them to avoid the embarrassment of how wrong they were in the first place."[17] The common-held belief in a catastrophic event occurring on a future date can have the effect of ingraining followers with a sense of uniqueness and purpose.[18] In addition, after a failed prophecy members may attempt to explain the outcome through rationalization and dissonance reduction.[10][19][20]

    Explanations may include stating that the group members had misinterpreted the leader's original plan, that the cataclysmic event itself had been postponed to a later date by the leader, or that the activities of the group itself had forestalled disaster.[10] In the case of the Festinger study, when the prophecy of a cataclysmic flood was proved false, the members pronounced that their faith in God had prevented the event. They then proceeded to attempt to convert new members with renewed strength.
    They'll get right back to figuring out when the next End of Days will come.

  6. #1506

    Default

    Seventh Day Adventists built a religious sect from a failed doomsday prophesy.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  7. #1507

    Default

    ^^ Just like the cult of political ideology we see on the far right and left today. People will double down on their stupidity rather than admit they were wrong and move on. There's a tremendous lack of humility out there these days.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  8. #1508

    Default

    Simply believe their religion because their parents believed their religion, and their parents before them...?

    Why do we believe in gods? Religious belief 'not linked to intuition or rational thinking': The study challenges a growing trend that has attempted to show that believing in the supernatural is something that comes to us 'naturally' or intuitively -- ScienceDaily

    Leading author Miguel Farias said:

    “... "What drives our belief in gods -- intuition or reason; heart or head? There has been a long debate on this matter but our studies have challenged the theory that being a religious believer is determined by how much individuals rely on intuitive or analytical thinking.

    "We don't think people are 'born believers' in the same way we inevitably learn a language at an early age. The available sociological and historical data show that what we believe in is mainly based on social and educational factors, and not on cognitive styles, such as intuitive/analytical thinking.

    "Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition." ...”


    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1108092429.htm


  9. #1509

    Default

    Indonesia's Orang Rimba: Forced to renounce their faith - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41981430
    Excerpt:

    “ "For now we are focusing on the children. It's easier to convert them - their mind isn't filled with other things. With the older ones it's harder," he says.

    "Before Islam they just believed in spirits, gods and goddesses, not the supreme god Allah. “...

    “ "So that our children can have the same opportunities as the outsiders, the people of the light, we had no other choice. We had to all convert to Islam." “ ...


    “The surrounding majority Muslim population calls the Orang Rimba "Kubu".

    "It means...”
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2017 at 08:46 PM.

  10. #1510

    Default

    He has or had followers:

    Sale of controversial 'miracle' tonic results in dozens of charges - British Columbia - CBC News
    Excerpt:
    “Humble is quite literally an evangelist for sodium chlorite, a sacrament in the church he founded to spread his belief that a liquid generated from combining the bleach with water "has proven to restore partial or full health to hundreds of thousands of people" afflicted with everything from cancer to Alzheimer's.

    Humble also claims to be a billion-year-old god from the Andromeda Galaxy sent to Earth to save humans.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...each-1.4481198

  11. #1511

    Default

    Interesting. Accurate and factual? I don’t know.


    [Said during a debate when his opponent asserted that atheism and belief in evolution lead to Nazism:]

    Atheism by itself is, of course, not a moral position or a political one of any kind; it simply is the refusal to believe in a supernatural dimension. For you to say of Nazism that it was the implementation of the work of Charles Darwin is a filthy slander, undeserving of you and an insult to this audience. Darwin’s thought was not taught in Germany; Darwinism was so derided in Germany along with every other form of unbelief that all the great modern atheists, Darwin, Einstein and Freud were alike despised by the National Socialist regime.

    Now, just to take the most notorious of the 20th century totalitarianisms – the most finished example, the most perfected one, the most ruthless and refined one: that of National Socialism, the one that fortunately allowed the escape of all these great atheists, thinkers and many others, to the United States, a country of separation of church and state, that gave them welcome – if it’s an atheistic regime, then how come that in the first chapter of Mein Kampf, that Hitler says that he’s doing God’s work and executing God’s will in destroying the Jewish people? How come the fuhrer oath that every officer of the Party and the Army had to take, making Hitler into a minor god, begins, “I swear in the name of almighty God, my loyalty to the Fuhrer?” How come that on the belt buckle of every Nazi soldier it says Gott mit uns, God on our side? How come that the first treaty made by the Nationalist Socialist dictatorship, the very first is with the Vatican? It’s exchanging political control of Germany for Catholic control of German education. How come that the church has celebrated the birthday of the Fuhrer every year, on that day until democracy put an end to this filthy, quasi-religious, superstitious, barbarous, reactionary system?

    Again, this is not a difference of emphasis between us. To suggest that there’s something fascistic about me and about my beliefs is something I won't hear said and you shouldn't believe.
    - Christopher Hitchens

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag...urch-and-state

  12. #1512
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,588

    Default

    It's not interesting. It's boring. That argument has been won a million times over. Atheism has nothing to do with the murderous totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. Their heinous acts were committed in the name of ideologies that were elevated to the level of religion. Not atheism.

    But as usual, it's slapped down with eloquence and derision by Hitchens.

  13. #1513

    Default

    Calgary Secular Church The First Atheist Church In Alberta

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...n_2583930.html

  14. #1514
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Below that old white mountain, just a little southeast of Nome
    Posts
    628

    Default GQ Magazine Says Book That Built Western Civilization is ‘Foolish'

    "The Holy Bible is rated very highly by all the people that supposedly live by it, but in actuality have not read it"

    I would have to agree with the GQ editor's assertion that not many (as compared to the entire adult world population) have actually read it in depth, but that doesn't take away from the enormous impact that it has had on Western Civilization especially the New Testament in the last 2000 years and more specifically since it appeared in book form for the common reader in the last 600 years.

    Good rebuttal by Gary DeMar...

    https://garydemar.com/gq-magazine-says-book-built-western-civilization-foolish/
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God" Paul

  15. #1515

    Default

    A good rebuttal? Oh, dear ...

    ... It’s a history of our world, a story of fall and redemption, to put in language that someone like Ball might understand. ...
    Fall and redemption, no doubt. But the bible is a history of our world only to those who believe its self-proclaiming infallibility and rectitude. In reality it's no more our history than any other texts and stories of the world's multitude of religions. Just try convincing the majority of the world (past and present) who didn't/don't follow a given religion of its divine providence (... without starting a war).

    The history of Western civilization is the history of the development and implementation of the Bible to all of life. ...
    Again, thank the gods, no. The history of any civilization is far more accurately the adaptation of its predominant religion to contemporary society's mores, not the other way around.

    In these respects, there is little to differentiate Christianity from any other religion. So please don't feel singled out.

  16. #1516
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Below that old white mountain, just a little southeast of Nome
    Posts
    628

    Default

    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God" Paul

  17. #1517

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.

  18. #1518
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Below that old white mountain, just a little southeast of Nome
    Posts
    628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.
    To me it points to a purposeful designer operating outside the confines of our universe, rather than a random chance especially when you consider that they both are proposing a limited number of multiverses rather than unlimited number.
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God" Paul

  19. #1519

    Default

    ^ I call BS on that...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  20. #1520

    Default

    ^^ Does it, now?

    And what "purposeful designer" might the Hawking and Hertog paper indicate to you and, more importantly, why?

    Hint: It's important that one read the paper, not just the news article and, if there is no objectively-specific correlation whatsoever to one's conclusion, one might want to re-evaluate one's construed correlation, if not conclusion.

  21. #1521

    Default

    Here is an experiment you can do in your own home. Take a clear glass of un-swished water and add a drop of food colouring, milk, juice etc. to it. A cloud that looks like a nebulae in space forms. The millions of living organisms within the water would agree that you created their world and therefore are their 'God'. You are intelligent, you made it; BUT you had no control over how that cloud formed within the water.

    Anyone who believes God individually made them and knows intimately everything single about them are fools.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  22. #1522

    Default

    One more thing, do you hear the prayers the living organisms within the glass of water are praying to you?
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  23. #1523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.
    To me it points to a purposeful designer operating outside the confines of our universe, rather than a random chance especially when you consider that they both are proposing a limited number of multiverses rather than unlimited number.
    Maybe, maybe not. It could be that the combination of factors is rare but how rare? The univers likely has huge numbers of factors that are in balance one way or another.

  24. #1524
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Below that old white mountain, just a little southeast of Nome
    Posts
    628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^^ Does it, now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post

    And what "purposeful designer" might the Hawking and Hertog paper indicate to you and, more importantly, why?

    Hint: It's important that one read the paper, not just the news article and, if there is no objectively-specific correlation whatsoever to one's conclusion, one might want to re-evaluate one's construed correlation, if not conclusion.
    I never said that Hawking and Hertzog came to any conclusion in their paper which by the way you can access for free here
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1707.07702.pdf go ahead and fill your boots but according to astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross.... "It is a variation of the no-boundary model that Hawking and Hartle proposed three decades ago. Like the original no-boundary model, this variation is speculative and untestable. The paper presents a toy cosmic model and argues that the multiverse is finite. That is, it claims that only a finite number of universes were spawned during the very brief inflation episode. However, like all multiverse models, this model is not testable."

    The more science delves into the questions of origin of universe and origin of life on earth the more questions it raises which is great. Yes I do believe that the purposeful designer is the God of the Bible. Genesis was written thousands of years ago yet matches what scientists have found about so far regarding the creation of life on the earth.
    Last edited by edTel; 06-05-2018 at 08:45 PM.
    "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God" Paul

  25. #1525

    Default

    Actually, no, it doesn't According the Genesis, dry land and water were created on day 3 and all the stars and the sun and the moon were created on the fourth.

    “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=NIV
    So, according to Genesis, the Earth existed before the sun and there was plant life before the creation of the sun and moon as well.

    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?

  26. #1526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Actually, no, it doesn't According the Genesis, dry land and water were created on day 3 and all the stars and the sun and the moon were created on the fourth.

    “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=NIV
    So, according to Genesis, the Earth existed before the sun and there was plant life before the creation of the sun and moon as well.

    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Most concerning is the promotion of incestuous relationships - of the worst kind.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 06:58 AM.

  27. #1527
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,522

    Default

    Ahhh, the fine-tuning argument. I think Douglas Adams had the most succinct description of the main problem with the argument:

    “Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’
    The universe fits us perfectly because we evolved in this universe.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  28. #1528

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Ahhh, the fine-tuning argument. I think Douglas Adams had the most succinct description of the main problem with the argument:

    “Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’
    The universe fits us perfectly because we evolved in this universe.
    And the staggering large number of different combinations of conditions throughout the universe that I imagine exist, must to me mean that “finely tuned” conditions likely exist ”for everything under the sun”. Our own finely tuned and balanced conditions might randomly form billions of times if not trillions of times across time and universes (if time and alternative universes even exist).


    That said, the puddle might be right - the chicken and egg problem.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 10:15 AM.

  29. #1529

    Default

    That certainly applies to "local conditions", like atmospheric conditions, presence of water vs?, temperature and climate stability.

    It doesn't apply to universal constants and physical laws that Hawking et al are talking about.

    While multiverses may be a thing and I understand at least some of the theoretical basis for them there isn't a bases for the idea that those alternate universes have universal laws and constants any different than our own. That's a reach outside of science that's seems to me to be as much of an appeal to faith as a deist explanation is.
    There can only be one.

  30. #1530

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Unicorns were and are real but they are single horned rhinos, not magical flying horses.

    Rhinoceros Unicornus is the official name.

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    Last edited by Vincent; 07-05-2018 at 03:48 PM.

  31. #1531
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Unicorns were and are real but they are single horned rhinos, not magical flying horses.

    Rhinoceros Unicornus is the official name.

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    The scientific name for the Indian Rhinoceros was taken from mythology, not the other way around. That said it is possible the ancient greek legends that predate the medieval version where distorted references to the India Rhinoceros but that is far from clear.

    My understanding is that unicorns don't appear in the Bible at all. While the Hebrew word re'em is translated as unicorn in the King James Bible I think that's the only text that does. The standard translation is wild ox or auroch which fits better with the bible references which are mostly metaphors to strength.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  32. #1532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ...

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    And you can't support a religion without it.

  33. #1533

    Default

    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.

  34. #1534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.
    The fact is there are many mistakes in translations and differences between them even to the point of changing the meanings, but translations don't alter the original text which is why any serious bible student always looks at the original meanings of the original words. And it's true that many Christians disagree on the meanings of scriptures and many are also guilty of eisegesis, but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.

    There are for example heated debates among Christians about the meaning of the thousand years, the number of the beast, the harlot, the anti-christ, the resurrections, you name it. There's actually very little agreement on that kind of stuff which is why churches don't even touch it. They stick with the basics for fear of causing dissension amongst the tithe paying faithful. And that's why I no longer attend church. The tithe itself is not even biblical, but you'll never hear a pastor admit it. And their fear of delving deep into the word keeps the vast majority of church goers woefully ignorant of the scriptures and their meanings.

    Anyway, the point is that there are mistakes in translations but that obviously doesn't invalidate the original text in any way. It only invalidates the translations. The Bible student's job is to weed out those mistakes and get to the true meaning.

  35. #1535

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.
    The fact is there are many mistakes in translations and differences between them even to the point of changing the meanings, but translations don't alter the original text which is why any serious bible student always looks at the original meanings of the original words. And it's true that many Christians disagree on the meanings of scriptures and many are also guilty of eisegesis, but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.

    There are for example heated debates among Christians about the meaning of the thousand years, the number of the beast, the harlot, the anti-christ, the resurrections, you name it. There's actually very little agreement on that kind of stuff which is why churches don't even touch it. They stick with the basics for fear of causing dissension amongst the tithe paying faithful. And that's why I no longer attend church. The tithe itself is not even biblical, but you'll never hear a pastor admit it. And their fear of delving deep into the word keeps the vast majority of church goers woefully ignorant of the scriptures and their meanings.

    Anyway, the point is that there are mistakes in translations but that obviously doesn't invalidate the original text in any way. It only invalidates the translations. The Bible student's job is to weed out those mistakes and get to the true meaning.
    “but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.”


    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 07:31 PM.

  36. #1536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    ^^ I do not understand what is the ultimate "purpose" in a theist world? To live eternity in happiness? To please the creator?

    I don't know my purpose but I find comfort in believing/knowing that death = nothingness. There is no hell waiting for me, no heaven where one would find eternal happiness. I have all these questions about heaven. How can one know happiness/joy if there is an absense of sorrow and pain? Is it just a mind state, like people high on drugs/a sugar rush?

    I find comfort that when/if something horrific happens to me, it's just random chance. Not some greater being "testing" my faith. Not everything is forgiven with finding faith/Jesus at the end of one's life and people that lose faith are not rotting in hell.

    I can accept that I live in a random/chaotic world, but I cannot accept living in an unjust world, where the only measure of my "goodness" is my undivided devotion to some greater being.
    Your take on the Christian message seems to be based on misinformation. Though there is a heaven, there is no hell. Though there is death and eternal life, there is no eternal suffering. Not even for the wicked. God is not that cruel.

    Dante, Fra Angelico, John Milton and even C.S. Lewis depictions of hell were the results of Catholic church indoctrination (which protestants have gladly carried forward) designed to scare the people into the church and their money into the coffers. "Follow the money" was never more aptly used. The word "hell" in scripture is a constant mis-translation from the words Sheol, Hades and Gehenna, with Sheol and Hades both meaning the grave and Gehenna being a reference to the Valley of Hinnom just outside of Jerusalem where Jews used to sacrifice their children to pagan gods in fire, and later where garbage was burned. As a point of interest when the King James Bible refers to the death of the righteous the word Sheol is translated as "the grave", but in reference to the deaths of the wicked that same word is translated as "hell". The agenda becomes obvious.

    So if your disdain for the Christian message is partly due to the threat of eternal suffering if you choose not to worship God, then that disdain is misplaced and the Christian machine that has expounded this message about hell for centuries is to blame. The truth is, according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.

  37. #1537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    If you believe the Qu'ran "updates the Bible" then you must believe it to be true. I don't.

  38. #1538

    Default

    Maybe hell is the eternal life path.

  39. #1539

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    If you believe the Qu'ran "updates the Bible" then you must believe it to be true. I don't.
    Actually I don’t. However don’t many devout, studious followers believe the Qur'an writings represent God’s will?

  40. #1540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.

  41. #1541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.
    I believe the lake of fire is merely symbolic for eternal death, as fire consumes completely. So yes, you could say "non-existence". Wiped from history, never to be remembered (Isaiah 65:17).

    And where the KJV uses the word hell, the original Greek is word #86 "Hades".

    86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.


    Note that Hades is not for the wicked only but for all the departed, which contradicts the typical depiction of hell as being a place of torment and punishment for the wicked. The KJV is a poor translation.

    Also note that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) which is eternal, meaning there will be no more "grave", ie. no more death after this point. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, rather than "eternal life or eternal death" there will be only "eternal life or eternal non-existence".

  42. #1542
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8

  43. #1543

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.
    I believe the lake of fire is merely symbolic for eternal death, as fire consumes completely. So yes, you could say "non-existence". Wiped from history, never to be remembered (Isaiah 65:17).

    And where the KJV uses the word hell, the original Greek is word #86 "Hades".

    86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.


    Note that Hades is not for the wicked only but for all the departed, which contradicts the typical depiction of hell as being a place of torment and punishment for the wicked. The KJV is a poor translation.

    Also note that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) which is eternal, meaning there will be no more "grave", ie. no more death after this point. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, rather than "eternal life or eternal death" there will be only "eternal life or eternal non-existence".
    And what’s the whole point to it all? Eternal life vs eternal something else? Why was it worth mentioning?

    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    Last edited by KC; 10-05-2018 at 05:55 AM.

  44. #1544

    Default

    Losing their religion: The young Turks rejecting Islam - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-eur...ejecting-islam

  45. #1545
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,588

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.

  46. #1546
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.
    I haven't watched this one yet but I have seen Matt speak and debate as well as had the chance to have a beer with him afterwords. Good guy and very smart. I'm also impressed with how much effort he puts into treating his opponents well and respectfully. I highly recommend watching his material on atheism and the various debates he's put online.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  47. #1547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    And what’s the whole point to it all? Eternal life vs eternal something else? Why was it worth mentioning?

    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    I explained it in response to another post that implied the thought of eternal torture in hell does not fit the image of a loving God and therefore the entire thing was preposterous. Perhaps a clearer picture of what scripture actually teaches makes it all a little less preposterous as there seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about the Bible in general, not only amongst the atheists but also amongst believers.

  48. #1548

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    There's no limit to those who can come into eternal life, but not everyone will receive it for a simple reason. It's the reason God created mankind in the first place. We were created for God to give love and receive love. And this is the reason why we have a free will: only if love is freely given is it true love.

    God wants to spend eternity with those who love him, which is really not so different than what any of us want, is it?

    I see the judgment not so much as something that God decides, but something that we as people decide because eternal life is offered to all those who accept it. It's a free gift. You don't have to earn it. And if you're not interested, that's your prerogative too. No hard feelings.

  49. #1549
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,522

    Default

    Protestants decline, more have no religion in a sharply shifting religious landscape (POLL)



    As the share of Protestants has declined, the number of adults expressing no religious affiliation has risen from 12 percent in 2003 to 21 percent of all adults in 2017. That includes 3 percent who say they’re atheists, 3 percent agnostic and 15 percent who say they have no religion. The proportions were similar 15 years ago.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  50. #1550
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.
    I haven't watched this one yet but I have seen Matt speak and debate as well as had the chance to have a beer with him afterwords. Good guy and very smart. I'm also impressed with how much effort he puts into treating his opponents well and respectfully. I highly recommend watching his material on atheism and the various debates he's put online.
    Ya I've been following Matt on The Atheist Experience as well as other YouTube videos for years now. I'm very familiar with his lectures and I'm jealous you got to meet him. He seems to get better and better at debating each time he speaks. I particularly like watching the videos of him vs Matt Slick.

  51. #1551

    Default

    I wonder what the parents think:

    Pennsylvania priests 'abused thousands of children' - BBC News


    “After an 18-month investigation, "over one thousand child victims were identifiable, from the church's own records,"...

    "We believe that the real number - of children whose records were lost or who were afraid ever to come forward - is in the thousands."
    ...

    "All of them were brushed aside by church leaders who preferred to protect the abusers and their institution above all," the report reads.

    Due to alleged cover-up efforts by the church's senior officials, most of the cases ...


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45190355
    Last edited by KC; 15-08-2018 at 01:58 AM.

Page 16 of 16 FirstFirst ... 61213141516

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •