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Thread: Atheism vs. Religion

  1. #1501

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    Pakistan’s secret atheists - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40580196

  2. #1502
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    https://ticketstonight.ticketforce.c...s.asp?evt=3519

    I'm really interested in going to this!

  3. #1503

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    Sounds to me like a good reason to create another stat holiday in September. You never know, so let's be prepared, and relaxed.

    Biblical Literalists Say End Is Coming In 'The Sign' : 13.7: Cosmos And Culture : NPR

    http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/201...ng-no-it-isn-t

  4. #1504

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    I'll put off doing my laundry, just in case.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  5. #1505
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    What will they say on Sept. 23 when the world remains where it is?
    I don't know exactly what they'll say, but this kind of thing has been well studied: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsd...ogical_studies

    Social scientists have found that while some group members will leave after the date for a doomsday prediction by the leader has passed uneventfully, others actually feel their belief and commitment to the group strengthened. Often when a group's doomsday prophecies or predictions fail to come true, the group leader will simply set a new date for impending doom, or predict a different type of catastrophe on a different date.[15] Niederhoffer and Kenner say: "When you have gone far out on a limb and so many people have followed you, and there is much "sunk cost," as economists would say, it is difficult to admit you have been wrong."[16]

    In Experiments With People: Revelations from Social Psychology, Abelson, Frey and Gregg explain this further: "..continuing to proselytize on behalf of a doomsday cult whose prophecies have been disconfirmed, although it makes little logical sense, makes plenty of psychological sense if people have already spent months proselytizing on the cult's behalf. Persevering allows them to avoid the embarrassment of how wrong they were in the first place."[17] The common-held belief in a catastrophic event occurring on a future date can have the effect of ingraining followers with a sense of uniqueness and purpose.[18] In addition, after a failed prophecy members may attempt to explain the outcome through rationalization and dissonance reduction.[10][19][20]

    Explanations may include stating that the group members had misinterpreted the leader's original plan, that the cataclysmic event itself had been postponed to a later date by the leader, or that the activities of the group itself had forestalled disaster.[10] In the case of the Festinger study, when the prophecy of a cataclysmic flood was proved false, the members pronounced that their faith in God had prevented the event. They then proceeded to attempt to convert new members with renewed strength.
    They'll get right back to figuring out when the next End of Days will come.

  6. #1506

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    Seventh Day Adventists built a religious sect from a failed doomsday prophesy.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  7. #1507

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    ^^ Just like the cult of political ideology we see on the far right and left today. People will double down on their stupidity rather than admit they were wrong and move on. There's a tremendous lack of humility out there these days.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  8. #1508

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    Simply believe their religion because their parents believed their religion, and their parents before them...?

    Why do we believe in gods? Religious belief 'not linked to intuition or rational thinking': The study challenges a growing trend that has attempted to show that believing in the supernatural is something that comes to us 'naturally' or intuitively -- ScienceDaily

    Leading author Miguel Farias said:

    “... "What drives our belief in gods -- intuition or reason; heart or head? There has been a long debate on this matter but our studies have challenged the theory that being a religious believer is determined by how much individuals rely on intuitive or analytical thinking.

    "We don't think people are 'born believers' in the same way we inevitably learn a language at an early age. The available sociological and historical data show that what we believe in is mainly based on social and educational factors, and not on cognitive styles, such as intuitive/analytical thinking.

    "Religious belief is most likely rooted in culture rather than in some primitive gut intuition." ...”


    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1108092429.htm


  9. #1509

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    Indonesia's Orang Rimba: Forced to renounce their faith - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41981430
    Excerpt:

    “ "For now we are focusing on the children. It's easier to convert them - their mind isn't filled with other things. With the older ones it's harder," he says.

    "Before Islam they just believed in spirits, gods and goddesses, not the supreme god Allah. “...

    “ "So that our children can have the same opportunities as the outsiders, the people of the light, we had no other choice. We had to all convert to Islam." “ ...


    “The surrounding majority Muslim population calls the Orang Rimba "Kubu".

    "It means...”
    Last edited by KC; 16-11-2017 at 09:46 PM.

  10. #1510

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    He has or had followers:

    Sale of controversial 'miracle' tonic results in dozens of charges - British Columbia - CBC News
    Excerpt:
    “Humble is quite literally an evangelist for sodium chlorite, a sacrament in the church he founded to spread his belief that a liquid generated from combining the bleach with water "has proven to restore partial or full health to hundreds of thousands of people" afflicted with everything from cancer to Alzheimer's.

    Humble also claims to be a billion-year-old god from the Andromeda Galaxy sent to Earth to save humans.”

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...each-1.4481198

  11. #1511

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    Interesting. Accurate and factual? I don’t know.


    [Said during a debate when his opponent asserted that atheism and belief in evolution lead to Nazism:]

    Atheism by itself is, of course, not a moral position or a political one of any kind; it simply is the refusal to believe in a supernatural dimension. For you to say of Nazism that it was the implementation of the work of Charles Darwin is a filthy slander, undeserving of you and an insult to this audience. Darwin’s thought was not taught in Germany; Darwinism was so derided in Germany along with every other form of unbelief that all the great modern atheists, Darwin, Einstein and Freud were alike despised by the National Socialist regime.

    Now, just to take the most notorious of the 20th century totalitarianisms – the most finished example, the most perfected one, the most ruthless and refined one: that of National Socialism, the one that fortunately allowed the escape of all these great atheists, thinkers and many others, to the United States, a country of separation of church and state, that gave them welcome – if it’s an atheistic regime, then how come that in the first chapter of Mein Kampf, that Hitler says that he’s doing God’s work and executing God’s will in destroying the Jewish people? How come the fuhrer oath that every officer of the Party and the Army had to take, making Hitler into a minor god, begins, “I swear in the name of almighty God, my loyalty to the Fuhrer?” How come that on the belt buckle of every Nazi soldier it says Gott mit uns, God on our side? How come that the first treaty made by the Nationalist Socialist dictatorship, the very first is with the Vatican? It’s exchanging political control of Germany for Catholic control of German education. How come that the church has celebrated the birthday of the Fuhrer every year, on that day until democracy put an end to this filthy, quasi-religious, superstitious, barbarous, reactionary system?

    Again, this is not a difference of emphasis between us. To suggest that there’s something fascistic about me and about my beliefs is something I won't hear said and you shouldn't believe.
    - Christopher Hitchens

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag...urch-and-state

  12. #1512
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    It's not interesting. It's boring. That argument has been won a million times over. Atheism has nothing to do with the murderous totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. Their heinous acts were committed in the name of ideologies that were elevated to the level of religion. Not atheism.

    But as usual, it's slapped down with eloquence and derision by Hitchens.

  13. #1513

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    Calgary Secular Church The First Atheist Church In Alberta

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...n_2583930.html

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    Default GQ Magazine Says Book That Built Western Civilization is ‘Foolish'

    "The Holy Bible is rated very highly by all the people that supposedly live by it, but in actuality have not read it"

    I would have to agree with the GQ editor's assertion that not many (as compared to the entire adult world population) have actually read it in depth, but that doesn't take away from the enormous impact that it has had on Western Civilization especially the New Testament in the last 2000 years and more specifically since it appeared in book form for the common reader in the last 600 years.

    Good rebuttal by Gary DeMar...

    https://garydemar.com/gq-magazine-says-book-built-western-civilization-foolish/

  15. #1515

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    A good rebuttal? Oh, dear ...

    ... It’s a history of our world, a story of fall and redemption, to put in language that someone like Ball might understand. ...
    Fall and redemption, no doubt. But the bible is a history of our world only to those who believe its self-proclaiming infallibility and rectitude. In reality it's no more our history than any other texts and stories of the world's multitude of religions. Just try convincing the majority of the world (past and present) who didn't/don't follow a given religion of its divine providence (... without starting a war).

    The history of Western civilization is the history of the development and implementation of the Bible to all of life. ...
    Again, thank the gods, no. The history of any civilization is far more accurately the adaptation of its predominant religion to contemporary society's mores, not the other way around.

    In these respects, there is little to differentiate Christianity from any other religion. So please don't feel singled out.

  16. #1516
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    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."

  17. #1517

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    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.

  18. #1518
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.
    To me it points to a purposeful designer operating outside the confines of our universe, rather than a random chance especially when you consider that they both are proposing a limited number of multiverses rather than unlimited number.

  19. #1519

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    ^ I call BS on that...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  20. #1520

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    ^^ Does it, now?

    And what "purposeful designer" might the Hawking and Hertog paper indicate to you and, more importantly, why?

    Hint: It's important that one read the paper, not just the news article and, if there is no objectively-specific correlation whatsoever to one's conclusion, one might want to re-evaluate one's construed correlation, if not conclusion.

  21. #1521

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    Here is an experiment you can do in your own home. Take a clear glass of un-swished water and add a drop of food colouring, milk, juice etc. to it. A cloud that looks like a nebulae in space forms. The millions of living organisms within the water would agree that you created their world and therefore are their 'God'. You are intelligent, you made it; BUT you had no control over how that cloud formed within the water.

    Anyone who believes God individually made them and knows intimately everything single about them are fools.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  22. #1522

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    One more thing, do you hear the prayers the living organisms within the glass of water are praying to you?
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  23. #1523

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    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Interesting article regarding Hawking's final paper which he co-authored with Hertog

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...aper-1.4648542

    From interview with Hertog...
    "The laws of physics, the ones we test in our labs,turn out to be very, very special. They are delicately fine-tuned and balanced in order for life and complexity and structures to be able form in our universe."
    And what does that point to?

    I think, that: I have almost no idea and could only guess.
    To me it points to a purposeful designer operating outside the confines of our universe, rather than a random chance especially when you consider that they both are proposing a limited number of multiverses rather than unlimited number.
    Maybe, maybe not. It could be that the combination of factors is rare but how rare? The univers likely has huge numbers of factors that are in balance one way or another.

  24. #1524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    ^^ Does it, now?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post

    And what "purposeful designer" might the Hawking and Hertog paper indicate to you and, more importantly, why?

    Hint: It's important that one read the paper, not just the news article and, if there is no objectively-specific correlation whatsoever to one's conclusion, one might want to re-evaluate one's construed correlation, if not conclusion.
    I never said that Hawking and Hertzog came to any conclusion in their paper which by the way you can access for free here
    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1707.07702.pdf go ahead and fill your boots but according to astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross.... "It is a variation of the no-boundary model that Hawking and Hartle proposed three decades ago. Like the original no-boundary model, this variation is speculative and untestable. The paper presents a toy cosmic model and argues that the multiverse is finite. That is, it claims that only a finite number of universes were spawned during the very brief inflation episode. However, like all multiverse models, this model is not testable."

    The more science delves into the questions of origin of universe and origin of life on earth the more questions it raises which is great. Yes I do believe that the purposeful designer is the God of the Bible. Genesis was written thousands of years ago yet matches what scientists have found about so far regarding the creation of life on the earth.
    Last edited by edTel; 06-05-2018 at 09:45 PM.

  25. #1525

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    Actually, no, it doesn't According the Genesis, dry land and water were created on day 3 and all the stars and the sun and the moon were created on the fourth.

    “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=NIV
    So, according to Genesis, the Earth existed before the sun and there was plant life before the creation of the sun and moon as well.

    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?

  26. #1526

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Actually, no, it doesn't According the Genesis, dry land and water were created on day 3 and all the stars and the sun and the moon were created on the fourth.

    “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=NIV
    So, according to Genesis, the Earth existed before the sun and there was plant life before the creation of the sun and moon as well.

    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Most concerning is the promotion of incestuous relationships - of the worst kind.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 07:58 AM.

  27. #1527
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    Ahhh, the fine-tuning argument. I think Douglas Adams had the most succinct description of the main problem with the argument:

    “Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’
    The universe fits us perfectly because we evolved in this universe.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  28. #1528

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Ahhh, the fine-tuning argument. I think Douglas Adams had the most succinct description of the main problem with the argument:

    “Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’
    The universe fits us perfectly because we evolved in this universe.
    And the staggering large number of different combinations of conditions throughout the universe that I imagine exist, must to me mean that “finely tuned” conditions likely exist ”for everything under the sun”. Our own finely tuned and balanced conditions might randomly form billions of times if not trillions of times across time and universes (if time and alternative universes even exist).


    That said, the puddle might be right - the chicken and egg problem.
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 11:15 AM.

  29. #1529

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    That certainly applies to "local conditions", like atmospheric conditions, presence of water vs?, temperature and climate stability.

    It doesn't apply to universal constants and physical laws that Hawking et al are talking about.

    While multiverses may be a thing and I understand at least some of the theoretical basis for them there isn't a bases for the idea that those alternate universes have universal laws and constants any different than our own. That's a reach outside of science that's seems to me to be as much of an appeal to faith as a deist explanation is.
    There can only be one.

  30. #1530

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Unicorns were and are real but they are single horned rhinos, not magical flying horses.

    Rhinoceros Unicornus is the official name.

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    Last edited by Vincent; 07-05-2018 at 04:48 PM.

  31. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Also, according to the Bible, unicorns were real. Where's the fossils?
    Unicorns were and are real but they are single horned rhinos, not magical flying horses.

    Rhinoceros Unicornus is the official name.

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    The scientific name for the Indian Rhinoceros was taken from mythology, not the other way around. That said it is possible the ancient greek legends that predate the medieval version where distorted references to the India Rhinoceros but that is far from clear.

    My understanding is that unicorns don't appear in the Bible at all. While the Hebrew word re'em is translated as unicorn in the King James Bible I think that's the only text that does. The standard translation is wild ox or auroch which fits better with the bible references which are mostly metaphors to strength.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  32. #1532

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ...

    You can't refute the Bible with ignorance.
    And you can't support a religion without it.

  33. #1533

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    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.

  34. #1534

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.
    The fact is there are many mistakes in translations and differences between them even to the point of changing the meanings, but translations don't alter the original text which is why any serious bible student always looks at the original meanings of the original words. And it's true that many Christians disagree on the meanings of scriptures and many are also guilty of eisegesis, but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.

    There are for example heated debates among Christians about the meaning of the thousand years, the number of the beast, the harlot, the anti-christ, the resurrections, you name it. There's actually very little agreement on that kind of stuff which is why churches don't even touch it. They stick with the basics for fear of causing dissension amongst the tithe paying faithful. And that's why I no longer attend church. The tithe itself is not even biblical, but you'll never hear a pastor admit it. And their fear of delving deep into the word keeps the vast majority of church goers woefully ignorant of the scriptures and their meanings.

    Anyway, the point is that there are mistakes in translations but that obviously doesn't invalidate the original text in any way. It only invalidates the translations. The Bible student's job is to weed out those mistakes and get to the true meaning.

  35. #1535

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You mean that the different translations have altered the original meanings? But it's the unwavering word of god. How can that be? How many translations and interpretations have there been through the centuries? Different languages, different meaning for unfamiliar words. Modifying the text in order to support one position or the other? And people have been slaughtering each other for millennia over who's imaginary friend is real. The bible is just one example.
    The fact is there are many mistakes in translations and differences between them even to the point of changing the meanings, but translations don't alter the original text which is why any serious bible student always looks at the original meanings of the original words. And it's true that many Christians disagree on the meanings of scriptures and many are also guilty of eisegesis, but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.

    There are for example heated debates among Christians about the meaning of the thousand years, the number of the beast, the harlot, the anti-christ, the resurrections, you name it. There's actually very little agreement on that kind of stuff which is why churches don't even touch it. They stick with the basics for fear of causing dissension amongst the tithe paying faithful. And that's why I no longer attend church. The tithe itself is not even biblical, but you'll never hear a pastor admit it. And their fear of delving deep into the word keeps the vast majority of church goers woefully ignorant of the scriptures and their meanings.

    Anyway, the point is that there are mistakes in translations but that obviously doesn't invalidate the original text in any way. It only invalidates the translations. The Bible student's job is to weed out those mistakes and get to the true meaning.
    “but none of that alters the original text or the original meaning and that's the only thing that really matters. The author is not responsible for the reader's confusion.”


    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    Last edited by KC; 07-05-2018 at 08:31 PM.

  36. #1536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    ^^ I do not understand what is the ultimate "purpose" in a theist world? To live eternity in happiness? To please the creator?

    I don't know my purpose but I find comfort in believing/knowing that death = nothingness. There is no hell waiting for me, no heaven where one would find eternal happiness. I have all these questions about heaven. How can one know happiness/joy if there is an absense of sorrow and pain? Is it just a mind state, like people high on drugs/a sugar rush?

    I find comfort that when/if something horrific happens to me, it's just random chance. Not some greater being "testing" my faith. Not everything is forgiven with finding faith/Jesus at the end of one's life and people that lose faith are not rotting in hell.

    I can accept that I live in a random/chaotic world, but I cannot accept living in an unjust world, where the only measure of my "goodness" is my undivided devotion to some greater being.
    Your take on the Christian message seems to be based on misinformation. Though there is a heaven, there is no hell. Though there is death and eternal life, there is no eternal suffering. Not even for the wicked. God is not that cruel.

    Dante, Fra Angelico, John Milton and even C.S. Lewis depictions of hell were the results of Catholic church indoctrination (which protestants have gladly carried forward) designed to scare the people into the church and their money into the coffers. "Follow the money" was never more aptly used. The word "hell" in scripture is a constant mis-translation from the words Sheol, Hades and Gehenna, with Sheol and Hades both meaning the grave and Gehenna being a reference to the Valley of Hinnom just outside of Jerusalem where Jews used to sacrifice their children to pagan gods in fire, and later where garbage was burned. As a point of interest when the King James Bible refers to the death of the righteous the word Sheol is translated as "the grave", but in reference to the deaths of the wicked that same word is translated as "hell". The agenda becomes obvious.

    So if your disdain for the Christian message is partly due to the threat of eternal suffering if you choose not to worship God, then that disdain is misplaced and the Christian machine that has expounded this message about hell for centuries is to blame. The truth is, according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.

  37. #1537

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    If you believe the Qu'ran "updates the Bible" then you must believe it to be true. I don't.

  38. #1538

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    Maybe hell is the eternal life path.

  39. #1539

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    But the Qur'an updates the Bible so shouldn’t it be studied too?
    If you believe the Qu'ran "updates the Bible" then you must believe it to be true. I don't.
    Actually I don’t. However don’t many devout, studious followers believe the Qur'an writings represent God’s will?

  40. #1540

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.

  41. #1541

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.
    I believe the lake of fire is merely symbolic for eternal death, as fire consumes completely. So yes, you could say "non-existence". Wiped from history, never to be remembered (Isaiah 65:17).

    And where the KJV uses the word hell, the original Greek is word #86 "Hades".

    86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.


    Note that Hades is not for the wicked only but for all the departed, which contradicts the typical depiction of hell as being a place of torment and punishment for the wicked. The KJV is a poor translation.

    Also note that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) which is eternal, meaning there will be no more "grave", ie. no more death after this point. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, rather than "eternal life or eternal death" there will be only "eternal life or eternal non-existence".

  42. #1542
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    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8

  43. #1543

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    ..according to the word of God, there are only two possible outcomes; eternal life and eternal death. Anyone who tells you differently did not study thoroughly.
    That may be too definite an understanding of it. Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV below, but the Vulgate, Slavonic -- and, I am told, the koine Greek -- texts are the same word for word):

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Not death, but fire. What is in the fire -- nonexistence? suffering? It seems deliberately ambiguous.
    I believe the lake of fire is merely symbolic for eternal death, as fire consumes completely. So yes, you could say "non-existence". Wiped from history, never to be remembered (Isaiah 65:17).

    And where the KJV uses the word hell, the original Greek is word #86 "Hades".

    86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.


    Note that Hades is not for the wicked only but for all the departed, which contradicts the typical depiction of hell as being a place of torment and punishment for the wicked. The KJV is a poor translation.

    Also note that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire (the second death) which is eternal, meaning there will be no more "grave", ie. no more death after this point. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, rather than "eternal life or eternal death" there will be only "eternal life or eternal non-existence".
    And what’s the whole point to it all? Eternal life vs eternal something else? Why was it worth mentioning?

    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    Last edited by KC; 10-05-2018 at 06:55 AM.

  44. #1544

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    Losing their religion: The young Turks rejecting Islam - BBC News

    http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-eur...ejecting-islam

  45. #1545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.

  46. #1546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.
    I haven't watched this one yet but I have seen Matt speak and debate as well as had the chance to have a beer with him afterwords. Good guy and very smart. I'm also impressed with how much effort he puts into treating his opponents well and respectfully. I highly recommend watching his material on atheism and the various debates he's put online.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  47. #1547

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    And what’s the whole point to it all? Eternal life vs eternal something else? Why was it worth mentioning?

    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    I explained it in response to another post that implied the thought of eternal torture in hell does not fit the image of a loving God and therefore the entire thing was preposterous. Perhaps a clearer picture of what scripture actually teaches makes it all a little less preposterous as there seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about the Bible in general, not only amongst the atheists but also amongst believers.

  48. #1548

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    i.e. the whole judgement thing? Why doesn’t everyone get eternal life or death? Is the eternal life place, space limited?
    There's no limit to those who can come into eternal life, but not everyone will receive it for a simple reason. It's the reason God created mankind in the first place. We were created for God to give love and receive love. And this is the reason why we have a free will: only if love is freely given is it true love.

    God wants to spend eternity with those who love him, which is really not so different than what any of us want, is it?

    I see the judgment not so much as something that God decides, but something that we as people decide because eternal life is offered to all those who accept it. It's a free gift. You don't have to earn it. And if you're not interested, that's your prerogative too. No hard feelings.

  49. #1549
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    Protestants decline, more have no religion in a sharply shifting religious landscape (POLL)



    As the share of Protestants has declined, the number of adults expressing no religious affiliation has risen from 12 percent in 2003 to 21 percent of all adults in 2017. That includes 3 percent who say they’re atheists, 3 percent agnostic and 15 percent who say they have no religion. The proportions were similar 15 years ago.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  50. #1550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Not trying to change the course of the conversation. Just want to add this video of things to watch. Very interesting discussion / debate between Matt Dillahunty and Jordan Peterson. Took place in Toronto a few days ago.

    https://youtu.be/FmH7JUeVQb8
    I haven't watched/listened to much of Peterson, because when I have something just doesn't seem quite right. His arguments sound good in isolation and in some respects, but when you put him up against other big brains that challenge his views and opinions, all of the sudden the visage starts to fall apart.
    I haven't watched this one yet but I have seen Matt speak and debate as well as had the chance to have a beer with him afterwords. Good guy and very smart. I'm also impressed with how much effort he puts into treating his opponents well and respectfully. I highly recommend watching his material on atheism and the various debates he's put online.
    Ya I've been following Matt on The Atheist Experience as well as other YouTube videos for years now. I'm very familiar with his lectures and I'm jealous you got to meet him. He seems to get better and better at debating each time he speaks. I particularly like watching the videos of him vs Matt Slick.

  51. #1551

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    I wonder what the parents think:

    Pennsylvania priests 'abused thousands of children' - BBC News


    “After an 18-month investigation, "over one thousand child victims were identifiable, from the church's own records,"...

    "We believe that the real number - of children whose records were lost or who were afraid ever to come forward - is in the thousands."
    ...

    "All of them were brushed aside by church leaders who preferred to protect the abusers and their institution above all," the report reads.

    Due to alleged cover-up efforts by the church's senior officials, most of the cases ...


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45190355
    Last edited by KC; 15-08-2018 at 02:58 AM.

  52. #1552
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    'There is no God,' says Stephen Hawking in final book

    "There is no God. No one directs the universe," he writes in "Brief Answers to the Big Questions."
    "For centuries, it was believed that disabled people like me were living under a curse that was inflicted by God," he adds. "I prefer to think that everything can be explained another way, by the laws of nature."

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  53. #1553

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    I wonder whether Hawking has found out otherwise.

  54. #1554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    'There is no God,' says Stephen Hawking in final book

    "There is no God. No one directs the universe," he writes in "Brief Answers to the Big Questions."
    "For centuries, it was believed that disabled people like me were living under a curse that was inflicted by God," he adds. "I prefer to think that everything can be explained another way, by the laws of nature."
    It's the age old question, just posed in a different way...."Why do bad things happen to good people?" Well for one we are not "good" people... all we have to do is take one look at our hearts to know that. Because we are all sinful we are all living under a curse of disease and death for our own good God did not let us live forever in our current state. We may not all face the same physical challenges as Hawking did, but we each have our own challenges to conquer in this life. However, even Hawking admitted that his disability made him a better scientist.

    From https://www.biography.com/people/ste...awking-9331710

    "In a sense, Hawking's disease helped turn him into the noted scientist he became. Before the diagnosis, Hawking hadn't always focused on his studies. "Before my condition was diagnosed, I had been very bored with life," he said. "There had not seemed to be anything worth doing." With the sudden realization that he might not even live long enough to earn his PhD, Hawking poured himself into his work and research."
    Last edited by edTel; 17-10-2018 at 07:55 PM.

  55. #1555

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    What’s sinful or, should I ask: what’s not sinful?

    As for after death, I sure don’t have any great expectations.
    Last edited by KC; 17-10-2018 at 11:21 PM.

  56. #1556
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    I think the only way the Catholic Church can save itself is to allow the clergy to marry. I just do not understand why they don’t change that rule, like yesterday already.

  57. #1557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think the only way the Catholic Church can save itself is to allow the clergy to marry. I just do not understand why they don’t change that rule, like yesterday already.
    100%. It's a stupid rule and has no basis in Christianity.

    1 Corinthians 7:9
    But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


    Last edited by Vincent; 18-10-2018 at 10:49 AM.

  58. #1558

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I wonder whether Hawking has found out otherwise.
    Not yet. He's sleeping in the dirt right now.

    Genesis 3:19
    For dust you are and to dust you will return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    What’s sinful or, should I ask: what’s not sinful?
    Whatever your religion says is wrong.

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  60. #1560

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.
    That's like saying if I close my eyes the scary monster can't see me.

  61. #1561

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    What’s sinful or, should I ask: what’s not sinful?
    Whatever your religion says is wrong.

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.
    And that involves putting morality into a modern and/or local context. 1,000 - 5,000 year old rules may no longer work to control the followers.

  62. #1562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.
    That's like saying if I close my eyes the scary monster can't see me.
    I would say you have that backwards. It's more like saying if we open our eyes we can see there is no monster, only us. Knowing that we understand our behaviour is our responsibility, no one elses.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  63. #1563

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.
    That's like saying if I close my eyes the scary monster can't see me.
    Have you ever worn a ply-cotton blend? Then you're a sinner.

    Have you ever eaten shrimp or lobster? Off to Hell with you.

    Any tattoos? Satan is waiting for you.

  64. #1564

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post

    If you don't have a religion then you have to do the heavy lifting of thinking about morality yourself rather than rely on a dusty tome and some dubious authority figures to tell you what to do.
    That's like saying if I close my eyes the scary monster can't see me.
    Have you ever worn a ply-cotton blend? Then you're a sinner.

    Have you ever eaten shrimp or lobster? Off to Hell with you.

    Any tattoos? Satan is waiting for you.
    Lol. Clearly you don't understand the first thing about Christianity.

  65. #1565

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    Yeah, not a thing.

    Leviticus 19:19 - "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

    Leviticus 11:12 - Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

    Leviticus 19:28 - 'You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.

    Yeah, totally misunderstanding these.

  66. #1566

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    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.

  67. #1567

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    There’s still lots of old rules still being enforced by various religions.

    Angry crowds block women from Hindu temple - BBC News

    “Most Hindu temples allow women to enter as long as they are not menstruating.”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-as...a-hindu-temple

  68. #1568

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.
    Well Vincent, so far, I don’t understand your point. Do you understand Christianity? If so, what exactly is it that you are saying kkozoriz doesn’t understand about Christianity?

  69. #1569

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.
    Oh I see. It doesn't actually mean what it says. There's deeper meanings to it. Please, enlighten us.

    Meanwhile.

    Deuteronomy 22:28 - “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

    Deuteronomy 22:29 - then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

    BTW, 50 shekels of silver is about 550 grams. Silver is about $15 per gram. So for about $8250, you can continue to rape your victim as long as you like.


    And then there's this one. Again, the woman gets no say in the matter.

    Deuteronomy 22:13-21
    "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,' then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her; and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, "I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity." And yet this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the cloak before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him, and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. He may not divorce her all his days. But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father's house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.Yup, rapists can marry their victims as long as they pay off her father and she doesn't get any say in the matter.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 18-10-2018 at 10:42 PM.

  70. #1570

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.
    Well Vincent, so far, I don’t understand your point. Do you understand Christianity? If so, what exactly is it that you are saying kkozoriz doesn’t understand about Christianity?
    Well, first of all, all those old testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus which means we don't have to follow them. Secondly, believing in Jesus means not that you are sinless but rather that you are forgiven for your sins. We all sin, Christian or not, but only Christians are forgiven.

    Christianity, unlike every other religion, does not require you to do things or refrain from doing things. It only requires you to believe and accept. And a key point here is that you can not earn your way into heaven, like the Muslims believe. Rather salvation is a gift freely given to those who don't deserve it.

    None of us deserve salvation but God freely gives it to those who accept it. That is why we sing amazing grace and that is Christianity in a nutshell. Admit you're a sinner, accept salvation.

  71. #1571

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    The ten commandments are in the old testament. Does that mean that they're no longer valid to Christianity?

    Is salvation given to murderers? To rapists? Thieves? If they accept, then they are wprty and deserving. So they don't get in? Is that right? But if they don't accept, then they don't deserve and so the do go to heaven?

  72. #1572

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.
    Well Vincent, so far, I don’t understand your point. Do you understand Christianity? If so, what exactly is it that you are saying kkozoriz doesn’t understand about Christianity?
    Well, first of all, all those old testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus which means we don't have to follow them. Secondly, believing in Jesus means not that you are sinless but rather that you are forgiven for your sins. We all sin, Christian or not, but only Christians are forgiven.

    Christianity, unlike every other religion, does not require you to do things or refrain from doing things. It only requires you to believe and accept. And a key point here is that you can not earn your way into heaven, like the Muslims believe. Rather salvation is a gift freely given to those who don't deserve it.

    None of us deserve salvation but God freely gives it to those who accept it. That is why we sing amazing grace and that is Christianity in a nutshell. Admit you're a sinner, accept salvation.
    This is most obviously not true.

  73. #1573
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    Something to keep in mind here is Christianity and Islam are not singular religions but rather groups of related religions. Within those groups there can be a wide range of beliefs.

    On the issue of works vs faith, Vincent is correct that in Christian religions faith is the main requirement for salvation rather than works. How that is balanced varies between the various Christian religions with some putting more emphasis on work than others but in general faith is the defining element.

    Islam also considers works and faith with both being required however it does put more emphasis on works. By some interpretations I've read, in Christian religions faith alone can save you while in Islamic religions faith alone is not sufficient, you must of done good works as well. Where particular Christian religions talk about works it is as an expression of faith so you can determine that someone has faith by their behaviour.

    This, of course, is all at the theological end and in practice humans are judgemental sorts. We put great stock in actions and, no matter what religion people subscribe to, there is a tendency to treat their holy books as rule books for behaviour. This is not a particular issue until it impacts people outside the religion.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  74. #1574

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    Vincent may be correct for whatever splinter group of Christianity he claims to speak for, but no more. The Christian works versus faith argument is a long and tedious one.

    I would like people to grow past their infantile need to define supreme beings that will somehow erase all their faults, all because they are scared shitless of whatever happens after they die.

    What happens after death is the real question, the only one with any real meaning in this world, but the recourse to faith and religion is the reaction of unworthy children.

  75. #1575
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    What happens after death is well... nothing. Other than our loved ones scattering our ashes in all of our favorite haunts.

    I've never understood the appeal of resurrection and eternal life. Truth be told sounds rather pointless and boring.

  76. #1576

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The ten commandments are in the old testament. Does that mean that they're no longer valid to Christianity?
    Not exactly. Most people will agree that murder and theft are wrong, and therefore if we do these things we are sinning. For Jesus said in John 9:41

    If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

    In other words, if you believe it's wrong then you're guilty, regardless of where it may or may not be written.

    As for the other old testament laws that you quoted earlier, those are not required of us as per the letter written to the Gentiles by Paul and the other church elders, after a debate around whether or not the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and follow the other laws of Moses. (Gentiles are non-Jews)

    The apostles and elders, your brothers,To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:Greetings.
    24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.Farewell. Acts 15

    In other words, as Christians we are not burdened by the law Moses. The only requirements carried forward to Christians are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Is salvation given to murderers? To rapists? Thieves?
    Yes, if they repent from their sins and accept Christ. Anybody can be forgiven.

  77. #1577

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Vincent may be correct for whatever splinter group of Christianity he claims to speak for, but no more. The Christian works versus faith argument is a long and tedious one.
    I believe that when you accept Jesus into your heart you will want to do good works. So you do them not because you're required to, but because you want to. If you don't want to do good works, then I would question whether or not you've really accepted Jesus.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you need Christ to do good works, far from it. I'm merely saying that if you do accept Christ, good works will flow from you. If they don't, then your faith is dead.

    James 2
    What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?... faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e]and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

    25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  78. #1578
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    How does:

    Christianity, unlike every other religion, does not require you to do things or refrain from doing things.
    work with:

    requirements carried forward to Christians are
    It would seem your latest says Christianity does require Christians to refrain from some things.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  79. #1579

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    Now you see why this topic is so hotly debated.

    I believe they carried forward those four requirements only to help guide new Christians in the ways of the Lord as Paul said that the law was a "schoolmaster" designed to teach, not to save. In other words, obeying these four commands are still not required for salvation but it's a good idea to keep them in mind, or as Paul said "You will do well to avoid these things".

    Galatians 3:2
    Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Remember that the reason they wrote this letter in the first place was their acknowledgement that the law was a burden and a curse which they knew could never bring salvation. It's also worth noting that even Paul himself backtracked on at least one of those requirements in 1 Corinthians 10 when he said you can eat meat sacrificed to idols but don't do it if it will cause anyone else to stumble and in this way you do everything for the glory of God.

    1 Corinthians 10
    So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.


  80. #1580

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    I like Dr Jordan Peterson's take on the Bible and religion - the reason these stories and ideas have lasted for thousands and thousands of years is because something in their "formula" has led to successful societies when people follow them.

    You don't even have to be religious to agree with that.

  81. #1581

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The ten commandments are in the old testament. Does that mean that they're no longer valid to Christianity?
    Not exactly. Most people will agree that murder and theft are wrong, and therefore if we do these things we are sinning. For Jesus said in John 9:41

    If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

    In other words, if you believe it's wrong then you're guilty, regardless of where it may or may not be written.

    As for the other old testament laws that you quoted earlier, those are not required of us as per the letter written to the Gentiles by Paul and the other church elders, after a debate around whether or not the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and follow the other laws of Moses. (Gentiles are non-Jews)

    The apostles and elders, your brothers,To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:Greetings.
    24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.Farewell. Acts 15

    In other words, as Christians we are not burdened by the law Moses. The only requirements carried forward to Christians are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Is salvation given to murderers? To rapists? Thieves?
    Yes, if they repent from their sins and accept Christ. Anybody can be forgiven.
    Many would agree on murder and theft so instead, murder and theft are redefined as self-defense, or so some other excus is made. Layers of deniability are instituted to provide anexcuse. Wartime bombing of schools and cities kills citizens as well as soldiers that are not actively fighting.

  82. #1582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Yup. You think quoting some verses means you understand Christianity. Thanks for proving my point.
    Well Vincent, so far, I don’t understand your point. Do you understand Christianity? If so, what exactly is it that you are saying kkozoriz doesn’t understand about Christianity?
    Well, first of all, all those old testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus which means we don't have to follow them. Secondly, believing in Jesus means not that you are sinless but rather that you are forgiven for your sins. We all sin, Christian or not, but only Christians are forgiven.

    Christianity, unlike every other religion, does not require you to do things or refrain from doing things. It only requires you to believe and accept. And a key point here is that you can not earn your way into heaven, like the Muslims believe. Rather salvation is a gift freely given to those who don't deserve it.

    None of us deserve salvation but God freely gives it to those who accept it. That is why we sing amazing grace and that is Christianity in a nutshell. Admit you're a sinner, accept salvation.
    If christians don't have to follow the Old Testament anymore then why do they believe that homosexuality is a sin?

  83. #1583

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    And why are bibles sold with both old and new testaments in them?

  84. #1584
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I like Dr Jordan Peterson's take on the Bible and religion - the reason these stories and ideas have lasted for thousands and thousands of years is because something in their "formula" has led to successful societies when people follow them.

    You don't even have to be religious to agree with that.
    See my sig.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  85. #1585

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Many would agree on murder and theft so instead, murder and theft are redefined as self-defense, or so some other excus is made. Layers of deniability are instituted to provide anexcuse. Wartime bombing of schools and cities kills citizens as well as soldiers that are not actively fighting.
    Excuses are for people who know they're doing wrong, which means they're still guilty of sin.


    However, it may not be considered wrong to drop bombs in wartime. Even God himself instructed the Israelites to go to war at times and kill every living thing. Sometimes God himself killed every living thing, like at Sodom and Gomorrah or during the flood. If you believe the enemy is evil and you're doing good by killing the evil enemy, then I would argue that you're not guilty of sin. You may be wrong, but that doesn't mean you're guilty of sin. You're only guilty of sin if you know you're wrong, but you still do it.


    During WW2 for example, many people believed that Hitler and all those who fought for Hitler were evil, and thereby doing God's work by killing Nazis. On the flip side Hitler himself believed he was doing God's work by instituting the third Reich. Obviously both sides killed a lot of innocent people yet even so perhaps neither side was guilty of sin, but that's not for me to judge.
    Last edited by Vincent; 19-10-2018 at 08:34 PM.

  86. #1586

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    And why are bibles sold with both old and new testaments in them?
    Because the new testament interprets the old testament. Without the old testament for reference, many of the things written in the new testament we wouldn't understand.

    Also, the old testament includes many valuable lessons and examples for us specifically around how obedience to God resulted in fortuitous times and disobedience to God resulted in troubled times. And because in the old testament days God intervened in the affairs of man directly, we can learn a great deal about the character of God through those stories. We see that God is emotional, loving and sometimes angry. Not to mention the historical account of the beginnings of life on earth, mankind and his relationship with God, the flood, the tower, and the people of Israel.

    Personally, I love the old testament. There's so much good information in there.
    Last edited by Vincent; 19-10-2018 at 09:24 PM.

  87. #1587

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    If christians don't have to follow the Old Testament anymore then why do they believe that homosexuality is a sin?
    Just because we don't have to follow the law of Moses anymore, doesn't mean that the book is no longer true. In fact quite the opposite. Whatever God said in the old testament is as true today as it was back then.
    Last edited by Vincent; 19-10-2018 at 08:35 PM.

  88. #1588

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    But you said
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Well, first of all, all those old testament laws were fulfilled in Jesus which means we don't have to follow them.
    Do you have to follow it or not? Or do you get to pick and choose like at a Chinese restaurant? One from column A and one from column B?

    If Jesus said nothing about homosexuality (which he didn't), why would you feel that the old testament had a good lesson about it? BTW, those good lessons call for homosexuals to be put to death. But that totally, really doesn't violate "Thou shalt not kill.". Really?

  89. #1589

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    If christians don't have to follow the Old Testament anymore then why do they believe that homosexuality is a sin?
    Just because we don't have to follow the law of Moses anymore, doesn't mean that the book is no longer true. In fact quite the opposite. Whatever God said in the old testament is as true today as it was back then.
    What about the different things God commanded other religions to do. Following God’s commandments in the many different religions could be extremely hard to do. How does one prioritize the various wishes of God. It seems that there are conflicting views on how to best obey God in the most populous religions Islam vs Christianity vs Judaism. Then there’s likely ancient ones that don’t get much in the way of followers. (Say those in various tribes in Africa, South America, etc)
    Last edited by KC; 19-10-2018 at 10:20 PM.

  90. #1590

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Many would agree on murder and theft so instead, murder and theft are redefined as self-defense, or so some other excus is made. Layers of deniability are instituted to provide anexcuse. Wartime bombing of schools and cities kills citizens as well as soldiers that are not actively fighting.
    Excuses are for people who know they're doing wrong, which means they're still guilty of sin.


    However, it may not be considered wrong to drop bombs in wartime. Even God himself instructed the Israelites to go to war at times and kill every living thing. Sometimes God himself killed every living thing, like at Sodom and Gomorrah or during the flood. If you believe the enemy is evil and you're doing good by killing the evil enemy, then I would argue that you're not guilty of sin. You may be wrong, but that doesn't mean you're guilty of sin. You're only guilty of sin if you know you're wrong, but you still do it.


    During WW2 for example, many people believed that Hitler and all those who fought for Hitler were evil, and thereby doing God's work by killing Nazis. On the flip side Hitler himself believed he was doing God's work by instituting the third Reich. Obviously both sides killed a lot of innocent people yet even so perhaps neither side was guilty of sin, but that's not for me to judge.
    Even those that know they are guilty of sin can be forgiven. There’s no downside it seems, for the followers.

    As always, the enemy is who? Who exactly? I need names. It can’t be Joe and the 500 unrelated, unnamed, unknown all-aged people living all around Joe.

    Moreover if someone of another religion is dutifully following Gods commandments to his religion how can anyone of another religion call that person an enemy according to God’s commandments?
    Last edited by KC; 19-10-2018 at 10:29 PM.

  91. #1591

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post

    During WW2 for example, many people believed that Hitler and all those who fought for Hitler were evil, and thereby doing God's work by killing Nazis. On the flip side Hitler himself believed he was doing God's work by instituting the third Reich. Obviously both sides killed a lot of innocent people yet even so perhaps neither side was guilty of sin, but that's not for me to judge.
    Not for you to judge? The Nazis were gassing people and putting them in furnaces and it's not for you to judge?

    "Sure, the Nazis are deliberately killing people but the people trying to stop them have killed some people too. They didn't set out to kill them though so it's basically a wash."

    OK, you just lost any credibility.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 19-10-2018 at 11:07 PM.

  92. #1592

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Many would agree on murder and theft so instead, murder and theft are redefined as self-defense, or so some other excus is made. Layers of deniability are instituted to provide anexcuse. Wartime bombing of schools and cities kills citizens as well as soldiers that are not actively fighting.
    Excuses are for people who know they're doing wrong, which means they're still guilty of sin.


    However, it may not be considered wrong to drop bombs in wartime. Even God himself instructed the Israelites to go to war at times and kill every living thing. Sometimes God himself killed every living thing, like at Sodom and Gomorrah or during the flood. If you believe the enemy is evil and you're doing good by killing the evil enemy, then I would argue that you're not guilty of sin. You may be wrong, but that doesn't mean you're guilty of sin. You're only guilty of sin if you know you're wrong, but you still do it.


    During WW2 for example, many people believed that Hitler and all those who fought for Hitler were evil, and thereby doing God's work by killing Nazis. On the flip side Hitler himself believed he was doing God's work by instituting the third Reich. Obviously both sides killed a lot of innocent people yet even so perhaps neither side was guilty of sin, but that's not for me to judge.
    The delusion that God exists and that God instructs people to start wars, commit genocide, and pillage Earth is very dangerous. It is exactly the same delusion that causes people to fly planes into buildings.

  93. #1593

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    The potential survival of souls, whatever they are, after life would by itself say nothing about the existence of a supreme being.

    Putative punishment and reward after life for sins or good works, in the way that we understand these words -- and it basically boils down to mental anguish and pleasure -- is also something by itself independent of a supreme being.

    No religion I know of considers the possibility that some of us are meat machines that have no afterlife, whereas others do have a surviving soul, and we cannot know what we ourselves are until the moment of death.

    Lastly, afterlife survival would not by itself indicate an immortal soul. Perhaps souls too live only for so many lives in the body, or just so much universal time, whatever that is.

    But most religions don't really consider these possibilities. They instead transpose primitive and childish musings about good and evil to a universal scale. Monotheism especially ties itself in knots with its impossible divine trilemma of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence, while its holy scriptures glorify in the divinity the ugliest possible traits of jealousy, retribution, and violence for the sake of power. It is depraved, and its believers are, to the extent they take their god seriously, dehumanized and made utterly immoral.

    None of this can in any way prove the monster the Jews, Moslems and Christians pretend to worship exists or does not, but it would seriously be a crying shame if it did.

    Except that most Christians and Jews don't really worship that hideous creature. They are essentially good people, though to a lesser or greater extent they show their crying need for a global big daddy. (I haven't dealt with enough Moslems closely enough to say anything about them.)
    Last edited by AShetsen; 20-10-2018 at 10:22 AM.

  94. #1594

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    The delusion that God exists and that God instructs people to start wars, commit genocide, and pillage Earth is very dangerous. It is exactly the same delusion that causes people to fly planes into buildings.
    Not to mention the delusion that one has magically or divinely chosen the "correct" religion, sub-sect and associated religious-text interpretations. All substantiated by ancient, oft-translated (with meanings inherently shifting over time) doctrinal quotations, no less. Oy vey.

  95. #1595

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    Why am I suspicious of the honesty of the author’s “error” noted at the end?


    12 Famous Scientists On The Possibility Of God

    “In chronological order, here's a glimpse into what some of the world's greatest scientists thought about the possibility of a higher power.

    1...”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b057d7d7c7a1e5



  96. #1596

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    Peace loving beliefs

    Facebook used to 'incite offline violence' in Myanmar, says report - BBC News

    “ultra-nationalist Buddhists seized on Facebook as a powerful means of inciting violence against Muslims.”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46105934



    Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims? - BBC News
    2013
    Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?
    This is happening in two countries separated by well over 1,000 miles of Indian Ocean - Burma and Sri Lanka. It is puzzling because neither country is facing an Islamist militant threat. Muslims in both places are a generally peaceable and small minority.
    In...”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22356306
    Last edited by KC; 06-11-2018 at 09:08 AM.

  97. #1597

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    Atheist United Church minister keeps her job; ‘heresy trial’ called off | Vancouver Sun

    https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pm...ial-called-off

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