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Thread: Edmonton Downtown Academic and Cultural Centre | Proposed

  1. #1201

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    Got a rezoning notice for the CN Tower from AJ (Alternative Jurisdiction Zone) to CCA (Core Commercial Arts Zone). I had heard for housing.
    www.decl.org

  2. #1202
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    An update more than anything
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  3. #1203

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    ^^ ? As in turning the CN Tower into condos??? That would be soooooo awesome.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    ^ Awesome only so long as a condo conversion doesn't mean converting the existing windows into ones that you can slide or crank open. Then it would be horrible.

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    I heard a portion might turn into rental...
    EDACC-EAD-YEGDT FTW!

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    That would be great if it was repurposed to a hotel or condos, it would take a large chunk of office floorspace off the market with those people moving to a new/different space.

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    They (Strategic) are looking at multiple options.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Supporters of downtown Edmonton Galleria pushing ahead, despite no word on government funding
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...g-slowly-ahead
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  9. #1209

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    Having said previously that this could take the decades the Muttart Conservatory took, I'm feeling optimistic...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  10. #1210

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    ^ There's nothing to feel optimistic about. This had a slightly better chance when PCs were in power but this isn't happening under this govt or this UofA board. It's still a dream and far from reality especially with mixed feelings from key university stakeholders. Most agree that this shouldn't be green lighted anytime in the foreseeable future. Their idea to fill the new office tower with govt staff is too controversial and damaging to the office market. Add the poor example of badly spending $150MM on the the underutilized Enterprise Square and they have too many objectors to deal with.

  11. #1211

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    ^ I don't think you read what I wrote, but fair enough that you're pessimistic.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  12. #1212
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    I thought this whole project didn't need any public funding?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  13. #1213

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    @Downtown Guy Where do you get this idea that it won't happen under this current government or UofA board? As I posted previously, the president of the U of A (David Turpin) stated "We are more than happy to partner with the city in terms of a number of downtown initiatives, the Galleria being an important one. If the city is interested in moving forward, we’ll be there with them.” (1) And from CBC last year regarding the city's support: "For the first time, city councillors have given the proposed downtown Galleria project their full support."(2) With both the Uni and CC backing this I'd say there is ample reason to be optimistic that the province will respond positively to this project.

    1. http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...alberta-campus
    2. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ject-1.3088854

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    The conductor at the Music Department's high school honours band performance on Sunday was talking positively about the Galleria project on Sunday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevester View Post
    @Downtown Guy Where do you get this idea that it won't happen under this current government or UofA board?
    I'm going to guess, at least on the government side, that some of the pessimism may be that this project is being spearheaded by longtime PC donors Irv and Dianne Kipnes, who couldn't even get traction with a government that they were closely tied with, let alone a new NDP government that's saddled with the most daunting fiscal challenges faced by this province in decades. So, yeah, maybe JayBee's right that this could be way off in the multi-decade distance, but that's quite the candle in the wind to be holding.

  16. #1216

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    Did the geotechnical drilling on the parking area southwest of the CN tower. Two 40 storey towers are planned for that site. Hoping this actually goes through. Would be fantastic for this area.
    Last edited by plshprince; 10-02-2016 at 03:56 PM.

  17. #1217

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    The UofA board, and the music dept are both very much supportive of this.

    The NDP may be supportive but they've got lots of fires they are dealing with. EDACC is a win for the city and the province and the UofA there are some important and influential people pushing for it. The circles I run in there is lots of positive talk about it.

  18. #1218

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    The foundation has done a terrible job of marketing this project much to its detriment. They haven't clearly defined the need. The resulting benefits are nebulous. The scope is vague. The funding model is confusing. All of this has left it as easy fodder for its detectors.

  19. #1219

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    This kind of confusing statement is emblematic of the communication issues. How can they call it shovel-ready if they haven't even done concept designs?

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...-just-wont-die

    Paula Simons: 'Shovel-ready' Galleria the zombie project that just won't die

    The Galleria. It’s the zombie project that will not die.

    Never mind that oil prices are $27 US a barrel. Never mind that the project lost its key political champions when Stephen Mandel and Dave Hancock exited the political stage. Never mind that many in the Edmonton arts community oppose the Galleria, which they see as a luxury venue they’ll never be able to afford, and one that is siphoning off their own traditional donors.

  20. #1220

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    I do think it's fair that the project hasn't been widely communicated well, but it's a brilliant project for the Arts Groups, City, Province, and University.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  21. #1221

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    It's not a matter of being pessimistic or optimistic - I prefer to simply be realistic based on facts rather than hopes. The project doesn't need city council to approve this although it's nice they support it for the good of downtown. The project is entirely enabled by the GoA since they need to commit to the operating budget for a 30 year lease and let's be clear - this is not a "win" for the province. Many influential people are pushing to fund a new building on campus. This project needs to get done in less than 10 years or it will not happen for the sole reason of who is behind it.

  22. #1222

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    ^ Everyone thinks they're a realist.

    10 years is fair.

    Would be a huge win for the University, City, and if only by extension, the Province.

    Also a huge win for the paranoid, shadowy arts groups Paula cites, whether they know it or not. I think she's referring to career bureaucrats, not artistically inclined or enlightened thinkers.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  23. #1223

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    No doubt it's a fun debate to watch as insiders wrestle with the idea of where the next significant phase of university development should be and whether the student and faculty experience should be secondary to those that so desire a further injection of downtown development for the good of the core. Is the need to improve the western edge of the Quarters more important than adding to the cultural experience on campus? As for the topic at hand for the GoA, they are primarily challenged with whether enabling this development downtown for the added benefit of an opera hall is worth half a billion dollars. That is the fiscal liability being requested of the province. What if these faculties could have their needs met with enthusiastic donors for a new building on campus? That is a worthwhile debate. And that would be truly shovel ready much more quickly since the university owns the land and the province wouldn't need to sign on for a liability as large. However that would mean goodbye to the new opera house and the 16 performances a year that would sparkle inside.

  24. #1224
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    Be nice to see this go ahead, but I have concerns about the timing. The province and the feds are likely going to have much higher funding priorities over this project, and in this economic climate it's likely a low priority on the totem pole.

    As for the tower - I'm glad they are switching from office to mixed-use residential because new office towers in this city are only spawning lateral downtown movement instead of attracting new HQs. But even with a mixed-use residential, can they realistically still fill the damn thing?

    If this goes ahead, they should consider turning the tower into a mixed use hotel similar to JW/Legends, given that the arena will be right across the street.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  25. #1225

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    The main campus is too hothoused for public display or artistic sensibility. Con Hall, the Timms, fabulous facillities, very few current students buying tickets, but just too sterile,too ensconced, too detatched. The only people I can see it "working" for is overprotective nagging arts-moms.
    • Having those kinds of productions just down the walk from the Citadel and Winspear would definitely build the fanbases for all.
    • Arts students on premises go to AGA and the RAM during their spares.
    • Contemplate the real issues of dynamic and varied human experience on all sides.
    • Citadel/Catalyst/Rapid Fire/ESO/Pro Coro personnel can mentor.
    • Students can get part time jobs in the arts.
    • Just imagine the festival energy with MacEwan New CFAC and ArtsHab Quarters just up and down the Avenue and Victoria School for Art just up the street.

    Main Campus is perfect for medicine (because of their hospital), science, and engineering, but is very limiting for arts.

    Rinse, add Business, lather, repeat.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  26. #1226

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Guy View Post
    No doubt it's a fun debate to watch as insiders wrestle with the idea of where the next significant phase of university development should be and whether the student and faculty experience should be secondary to those that so desire a further injection of downtown development for the good of the core. Is the need to improve the western edge of the Quarters more important than adding to the cultural experience on campus? As for the topic at hand for the GoA, they are primarily challenged with whether enabling this development downtown for the added benefit of an opera hall is worth half a billion dollars. That is the fiscal liability being requested of the province. What if these faculties could have their needs met with enthusiastic donors for a new building on campus? That is a worthwhile debate. And that would be truly shovel ready much more quickly since the university owns the land and the province wouldn't need to sign on for a liability as large. However that would mean goodbye to the new opera house and the 16 performances a year that would sparkle inside.
    There is no room on north campus for this project and south campus already has an expansion plan that doesn't include this and would be stupid to stick performance arts venues there anyways. They could put it elsewhere but there was a reason that music and arts were going here.

    GMAC has moved music downtown, winspear and the citadel and a winspear expansion, not mention AGA and RAM are in the area. The musicians and arts students are better off being closer to that action than further away from where there is venue spaces.

    If you stick performance arts venues in the middle of no where they likely won't be utilized. The goal of this project was to put performance art programs near theatre spaces and have a collection of spaces that meet various demands for various groups.

    This was designed to create a critical mass of arts students plus programming space plus other performers in an area where people will congregate to attend art-inclined events.

    Sure the quarters sucks but I don't know if you've ever been to the Royal college campuses in london, or Berklee in Boston, or some other conservatories. I've wandered around a few. Berklee was not in an up and coming neighbourhood. A skinhead pulled a knife on me near one of the RCM campuses. Prague, LA, and other cities I have been to have some of their fabled music schools or arts schools in some pretty crap areas at times. It doesn't mean the school is crap or the students won't go, it means that the area is struggling. Students and the security to protect them will often help clean up an area.

    It is a net positive to clean up part of DT, but this was proposed not to clean up DT but because there is existing arts spaces and cultural events and goings on happening and a critical mass of those things is needed to build the arts scene. What better way to build that scene than locate students of the arts, more spaces that have more variety of size and equipment/use potential, near pre-existing art spaces. Students of the arts also visit arts spaces, want to see usage of RAM and AGA and the citadel go up, stick a bunch of arts students in the area. Friends of arts students will attend events further increasing the audience numbers. ~5000 students to mention nothing of the teachers, support staff, friends, family of those all near existing facilities. That's huge. Toss in the gmac crowd who aren't far away and things get very exciting indeed.

    Sure it's not a good area but if a secondary benefit is that the area improves because of this relocation than by all means do it.

    I don't know how well you know the music or arts scene in this city but we still punch above our weight class and have had some monsters come out of this area or make their home here. The music dept at the UofA has been sorely neglected for years as have a few other arts programs. It would be a big boost for the image of the city, and the univ to step up and create some world class facilities and redevelop these programs into world class programs given the talent base.

    There hasn't been a very good publicity program around this but given the number of people that need to be on board and the organization sizes involved there is a surprising amount of discussion and buy-in. Lots of behind the scene work has to take place and that is a huge undertaking. They do need to get out and spread the good word and do a better job of detailing why this program exists (and no it's not to revitalize the NE of DT).

    My 2 cents from a non-outsider perspective so grain of salt to be taken.

  27. #1227

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    Plus what's wrong with getting a proper backstaged opera house?

    Even the Jubilee would prefer to have those setup/rehearsal/show/takedown nights to book other events. Literally have to book the entire thing for a month for four production nights which feature lousy accoustics, poor sightlines, and zero amenities until you get to Booster Juice 500 metres away.

    Would be far more than 16 productions in the new one, we can be assured, and significantly more event nights in the Jubilee too.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  28. #1228

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    Would have been underway if the City had built here rather than across the intersection.

  29. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Would have been underway if the City had built here rather than across the intersection.
    Interesting.

  30. #1230

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Would have been underway if the City had built here rather than across the intersection.
    Um, no. The City lease has no correlation as to whether the PC govt would have agreed to a 30 year lease for 300,000 sq feet in order to bring the UofA to the Galleria.

  31. #1231

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    ^ I believe kkozoriz is referring to a scenario where the City builds the arena on the Baccarat Block, thus making the EDACC Tower proposal on 101 Street more competitive to have won Stantec.

    I don't particularly agree that that alone would have won Stantec. Basically Katz Group versus EDACC are the opposite ends of the leverage scale, and it would have been/is/will be immensely difficult for EDACC to defeat Katz Group for a major tower tenancy, unless the tenant specifies NPO in the bid criteria.

    That being the case, I'd love to see Katz Group become a major opera house sponsor so we can see it built in our lifetimes.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  32. #1232

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    Build the opera house on the baccarat block - then you'd actually have a connected cluster of activity.

  33. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by micmac View Post
    Build the opera house on the baccarat block - then you'd actually have a connected cluster of activity.
    Katz Group owns that lot
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  34. #1234
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    Probably kitty corner of Baccarat on the SE of 104 ave/101 St would be a great theoretical place to put an opera house.

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    Memorandum of Understanding posted

    http://edmontongalleria.ca/memorandu...g-signed-city/
    Last edited by jmart81; 03-03-2016 at 10:16 AM.

  36. #1236

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    Cool! There are so many moving pieces to this project, nice to see things falling into place.

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    Due to the fact that TBF is going to have to revise their forecast and budget from last year to reflect the fall in oil prices, cuts are going to be made. While I'm hopeful that this project will be funded in the future, I wouldn't expect a positive announcement from the province backing this project this year. Next fiscal? Perhaps, if oil prices perform. To put this in perspective, the government was projecting $61 barrel oil in the budget last year and the bet is now closer to $40 (currently it is lower). Anyhow, TBF will look at the fiscal climate and most likely commit mostly flat lined funding on improving access and status quo tuition versus new infrastructure. If anyone has a couple hundred million laying around to donate to the U of A that is earmarked cash... now would be the time.

  38. #1238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Due to the fact that TBF is going to have to revise their forecast and budget from last year to reflect the fall in oil prices, cuts are going to be made. While I'm hopeful that this project will be funded in the future, I wouldn't expect a positive announcement from the province backing this project this year. Next fiscal? Perhaps, if oil prices perform. To put this in perspective, the government was projecting $61 barrel oil in the budget last year and the bet is now closer to $40 (currently it is lower). Anyhow, TBF will look at the fiscal climate and most likely commit mostly flat lined funding on improving access and status quo tuition versus new infrastructure. If anyone has a couple hundred million laying around to donate to the U of A that is earmarked cash... now would be the time.
    while there would be more than a kernel of truth in your comments if a couple of hundred million were being spent now, this project does not require a couple of hundred million from the provincial government or from the university of alberta today or tomorrow or next year or the year after that or the year after that...

    what this project probably does require is a commitment for something that might approach that amount on a cumulative basis over a period of 35 years or more. and, for perspective, that same something will probably be required over that same period of time trying to maintain the status quo without this project.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Due to the fact that TBF is going to have to revise their forecast and budget from last year to reflect the fall in oil prices, cuts are going to be made. While I'm hopeful that this project will be funded in the future, I wouldn't expect a positive announcement from the province backing this project this year. Next fiscal? Perhaps, if oil prices perform. To put this in perspective, the government was projecting $61 barrel oil in the budget last year and the bet is now closer to $40 (currently it is lower). Anyhow, TBF will look at the fiscal climate and most likely commit mostly flat lined funding on improving access and status quo tuition versus new infrastructure. If anyone has a couple hundred million laying around to donate to the U of A that is earmarked cash... now would be the time.
    while there would be more than a kernel of truth in your comments if a couple of hundred million were being spent now, this project does not require a couple of hundred million from the provincial government or from the university of alberta today or tomorrow or next year or the year after that or the year after that...

    what this project probably does require is a commitment for something that might approach that amount on a cumulative basis over a period of 35 years or more. and, for perspective, that same something will probably be required over that same period of time trying to maintain the status quo without this project.
    Thanks for the clarification in the first part of your comment.

    The second part however, is more difficult to measure in terms of financial obligations to maintain status quo versus costs to expand the program, etc. What types of budget pressures does committing to this project put on the university program from a tuition perspective versus maintaining the status quo? While I don't agree with this sentiment myself: a large portion of the "noisy" population in Alberta doesn't exactly see a project of this sort as necessary given the current state of the economy. I don't envy those in TBF and Advanced Ed that have to make a decision on committing to the project, even a long term lease commitment, over the next couple of years. Many will argue that this project goes above and beyond maintaining the status quo that currently exists for the existing program that this facility would support. The amount necessary for the lease obligation hasn't been made public, so a couple of hundred million versus several hundred million seems to be speculative right now.
    Last edited by Moodib; 04-03-2016 at 03:38 PM.

  40. #1240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Due to the fact that TBF is going to have to revise their forecast and budget from last year to reflect the fall in oil prices, cuts are going to be made. While I'm hopeful that this project will be funded in the future, I wouldn't expect a positive announcement from the province backing this project this year. Next fiscal? Perhaps, if oil prices perform. To put this in perspective, the government was projecting $61 barrel oil in the budget last year and the bet is now closer to $40 (currently it is lower). Anyhow, TBF will look at the fiscal climate and most likely commit mostly flat lined funding on improving access and status quo tuition versus new infrastructure. If anyone has a couple hundred million laying around to donate to the U of A that is earmarked cash... now would be the time.
    while there would be more than a kernel of truth in your comments if a couple of hundred million were being spent now, this project does not require a couple of hundred million from the provincial government or from the university of alberta today or tomorrow or next year or the year after that or the year after that...

    what this project probably does require is a commitment for something that might approach that amount on a cumulative basis over a period of 35 years or more. and, for perspective, that same something will probably be required over that same period of time trying to maintain the status quo without this project.
    Thanks for the clarification in the first part of your comment.

    The second part however, is more difficult to measure in terms of financial obligations to maintain status quo versus costs to expand the program, etc. What types of budget pressures does committing to this project put on the university program from a tuition perspective versus maintaining the status quo? While I don't agree with this sentiment myself: a large portion of the "noisy" population in Alberta doesn't exactly see a project of this sort as necessary given the current state of the economy. I don't envy those in TBF and Advanced Ed that have to make a decision on committing to the project, even a long term lease commitment, over the next couple of years. Many will argue that this project goes above and beyond maintaining the status quo that currently exists for the existing program that this facility would support. The amount necessary for the lease obligation hasn't been made public, so a couple of hundred million versus several hundred million seems to be speculative right now.
    You also have to look at the state of the programs and the buildings they're in and the facilities they have access too.

    Music and some of the arts are in ancient buildings that haven't been touched essentially since the 70s. The programs also are in much need of a revamp and revitalization. If we want to further the arts in the city we need the UofA to support its music and arts programs better.

    I don't know the other arts programs current states as well as music but the music program is not one I am very proud of. Macewan for a long time was kicking UofA's music programs ***. Macewan had some monster musicians associated with the program so that helps. But if you want to attract that sort of educational and technical talent then you need facilities and funding to bring those educators on board. If you want to attract the Bobby Cairns, the Charlie Austins of the world then the UofA will have to step up its game.

    Currently the music program is mediocre and Edmonton has a history of churning out some amazing talent. It is a solid heritage that we should be proud of and support with the big university having a solid program. Sure we won't compete with the RCM for classical students or with mcgill or berklee for the jazz guys but maybe we could be an acceptable second instead of a 3rd (at best) or 4th tier school in comparison.

    You look at the dollars and cents of it but are missing some of the major big picture pieces. The university brings people to the city, the better its programs the better the profs and the better the facilities than the more people from outside its borders. That is a large economic and cultural stimulus that is much needed. These facilities would allow the UofA to do so much more with some of its most neglected programs and really do a good job in making this city a bunch better place for students to want to come to. For families to want to stay. For individuals to want to stay. We lose lots of musical/artistic talent because there is better education opportunities elsewhere. And then they never return because there are industries that are supported near those educational institutions, and support for the arts in those cities. No I am not talking about pop music and that should be left out of this discussion. There is lots of work that session players can do where you don't need to be in the studio. And with the ever increasing quality in homestudio gear ($20 grand in kit for a few nice 500series boxes a few diy kits *like JLM*, some good AD/DA, some nice cans and some nice near fields and protools/logic and you are set) and you don't necessarily need to spend lots of time in studio. Besides the big studio gigs just are getting fewer and fewer. It's mostly tracking at smaller studios, and the mixes are done by skilled guys that are in their own studios or showing up to a nice studio and mastering is done at another set of facilities. Build out a base of talent and other things will come. It's what happened in Chicago, Nashville, LA, London, NY, Vancouver, Memphis, etc. Not that we need the music industry to show up. But it would better serve this city, and the province to not lose those guys/gals. All the talk of diversified economy and yet we aren't willing to spend the money to create the bases of people to support a diversified economy. We keep screwing up in the technology sector. TecEdmonton pretty much single-handedly keeps it alive. We don't do nearly enough to support the biotech and genetics field. Why there isn't more spent on building a nanotech related field here given we've got the NRCs Nanotech research facility and one of the leading centres for it.

    This new facility would be indicative of long term investment in the betterment of this city and the province. It's one that would breed a new set of economies.

    If we ever want to improve the arts programs for at the UofA we either rebuild their current facilities or build here. And there is no room on the main campus to build this sort of facility. I would hazard a guess that to get even half way there, with all the shuffling and various other nonsense, that it would cost nearly as much. Why spend almost the same to get a fraction of the goods. Or worse wait 10 years, spend even more to get even less?

    Sometimes there are moments when the stars align and you get a best of all worlds scenario. When the deal can't be beat. This would be one of those times. It moves programs off campus that don't need to be on campus. It puts them in an area with other like minded facilities. It gives them room for HUGE new and awesome facilities that would be world class. It raises the status of the programs involved. It further revitalizes downtown. It increases the student and faculty capacity of the program. It allows for better interaction between students from a competing program and to allow cross pollination of those programs (grant mac). It frees up tonnes of space on the main campus to allow for further expansion of programs that are currently in cramped or old spaces. It raises the status of the University, the city and the province and brings new talented and interesting people that wouldn't otherwise come and gives a reason to keep people here. And to top it off it helps further kill the dreaded stigma of this as 'deadmonton'. I call that win win win win win win.

    Does it cost a lot? Absolutely and sticker shock is a healthy reaction. Jumping in and going "zomg let's do this now and ignore anything else" would be foolhardy at best and destructively idiotic at worst. But when looking at what this brings and the risk/rewards? It would be one of those kick ourselves for the next 50 years if we let this pass. Due diligence is absolutely necessary. But lets not hmm/haw to the point of inaction and miss out on a once every 50 years type of opportunities. Let's not be so risk averse as to miss out on one of the better projects to ever come by this cities way.

    This is as big as the arena district in terms of post secondary. Grant mac consolidating and expanding DT is a HUGE deal. This is much bigger than that. It demonstrates the UofA and the province are willing to invest in this city and really make it something unique. The only thing bigger would be jumping on with a huge multi billion dollar expansion in the south campus (which will more accurately be in smaller bite sized chunks over 20-50 years).

    Just my very long winded and personal 2 cents.

  41. #1241

    Default Edmonton Galleria uses newly signed city support to woo province, federal government

    Edmonton Galleria uses newly signed city support to woo province, federal government for cash
    Bill Mah

    Published on: March 4, 2016 | Last Updated: March 4, 2016 8:21 AM MST


    A new deal with the City of Edmonton will go far in wooing the provincial and federal governments for cash to build the $850-million Galleria, says a spokesman for the proposed downtown arts and culture development.
    Source
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  42. #1242

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    It would help people better assess the risk / reward of this project if the development team was more forthcoming with details behind a comment like the last sentence, "Most of the remaining money needed will come from using the project’s commercial leases to leverage funding from financial institutions." The public will feel like there's more transparency if they knew how much space needs to be leased to commercial tenants to meet the proforma and in what way this commercial space may compete with other existing properties (if at all?). Why not clearly explain how this not-for-profit intends to maintain financial viability?

  43. #1243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Guy View Post
    It would help people better assess the risk / reward of this project if the development team was more forthcoming with details behind a comment like the last sentence, "Most of the remaining money needed will come from using the project’s commercial leases to leverage funding from financial institutions." The public will feel like there's more transparency if they knew how much space needs to be leased to commercial tenants to meet the proforma and in what way this commercial space may compete with other existing properties (if at all?). Why not clearly explain how this not-for-profit intends to maintain financial viability?
    You can reach out to the org to learn more.

    I am sure bigger players in the commercial real estate world have a better idea of what all is involved. Someone like mr KCantor I would assume has a better idea. My knowledge about this project comes from knowing the music dept/UofA

  44. #1244

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    Not the best angle (was thinking more that this picture was of the EPCOR Tower, post demolition) but does sortof show the huge scale of EDACC's land (everything from the little foreground building to the base of EPCOR.)

    Take it or leave it.

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    Not sure if this is newsworthy, but the Provincial Budget doesn't include any funding for this project - at least not in the "Adult Education and Skills" investment as part of the Capital Plan. There is something called “Future Projected (unallocated)” which provides $100 MM in funding starting in 2018/2019, so who knows, maybe some of that could go towards the project...
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    I don't think you will see a dime directly from the Province UNLESS there is Federal funding they need to match. Other than this - GoA was never intended to finance any of it. The University of Alberta asked for lease dollars that come out of operations. If there are funds flowing with the 2% increase the UofA got...and the GoA makes no never mind about the lease...the UofA can make the decision to go forward with lease of the little shitsy box building on top of the Epcor parkade...and made space in a tower for Business Faculty. Iirc - that is all that was being asked. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

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    Edmonton Galleria Project Suspended
    The Board of Directors of the Edmonton Galleria Foundation have made a decision to suspend the current development of the Galleria.
    Bringing Edmonton Galleria Foundation’s vision to life required us to be able to bring several different components together. Unfortunately at this time, and despite the significant support from the City of Edmonton, we have been unable to reach our milestones.
    The proposed state-of-the-art performing arts facilities were to be supported by the development of income producing real estate which also would have provided a sustainable funding source for the arts and culture in Edmonton through the Edmonton Cultural Trust Foundation.
    The Board of Directors is appreciative to all those who supported the project.
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    ^

    Some announcements instil excitement and anticipation... others elicit sadness for opportunity lost.

    This one falls in to the second category.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Indeed Ken, indeed.
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  50. #1250

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    I was never convinced that this project would work so I'm not surprised to see it stalled. You win some, you loose some...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  51. #1251

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    I would have preferred the city tower to be part of this project than the ICE district. But sports trumps arts. Pity

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    How dead is it?

  53. #1253

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    They say suspended so who knows?

  54. #1254

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    It is sad, but I still feel this will revive. Once the population of downtown nears the plateau that is planned for the paradigm, we will see this comeback to the drawing board.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It is sad, but I still feel this will revive. Once the population of downtown nears the plateau that is planned for the paradigm, we will see this comeback to the drawing board.
    this worked - or would have - because it had a $100 million private sector philanthropic donation to kick start it. it’s “suspended” because there has been insufficient government support - primarily provincial and federal - to leverage that properly and it lacked a municipal champion to secure it. if the latter isn’t there while the first one still might be, there will, sadly, be nothing to revive. this had the potential to be more positive for downtown and the quarters and the north edge than the arena which is why it’s so sad. it would have brought 75 - 100 times more people downtown every day than work for dynalife.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I was never convinced that this project would work so I'm not surprised to see it stalled. You win some, you loose some...
    Yeah, it was obvious to Top_Dawg that this was pie in the sky stuff from the outset.


    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It is sad, but I still feel this will revive. Once the population of downtown nears the plateau that is planned for the paradigm, we will see this comeback to the drawing board.
    this worked - or would have - because it had a $100 million private sector philanthropic donation to kick start it. it’s “suspended” because there has been insufficient government support - primarily provincial and federal - to leverage that properly and it lacked a municipal champion to secure it. if the latter isn’t there while the first one still might be, there will, sadly, be nothing to revive. this had the potential to be more positive for downtown and the quarters and the north edge than the arena which is why it’s so sad. it would have brought 75 - 100 times more people downtown every day than work for dynalife.



    It's "suspended" because every level of government quickly realized that in very short order it would become an eternal money pit from hell.

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    Well said Ken. The galleria was the number one reason why I purchased downtown and I felt it was going to transform the entire core.

    It’s sad to hear that the reason why it failed was because the city didn’t have the vision requires to do a sales drive on the idea to other levels of government. What a huge, huge, opportunity lost.

  58. #1258

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It is sad, but I still feel this will revive. Once the population of downtown nears the plateau that is planned for the paradigm, we will see this comeback to the drawing board.
    this worked - or would have - because it had a $100 million private sector philanthropic donation to kick start it. it’s “suspended” because there has been insufficient government support - primarily provincial and federal - to leverage that properly and it lacked a municipal champion to secure it. if the latter isn’t there while the first one still might be, there will, sadly, be nothing to revive. this had the potential to be more positive for downtown and the quarters and the north edge than the arena which is why it’s so sad. it would have brought 75 - 100 times more people downtown every day than work for dynalife.
    I have no arguments with that. When we see a dynamic downtown in the future, i see potential. Who says a different finance system cannot be conjured up. We did the arena without government funding did we not? As well, our arena approached government funding prior to us coming up with our own solution no? When time comes and we want it badly, we'll find a way. This is no different when people thought Qualico was insane for purchasing the Epcor tower area. I came on line in your defense and who ever thought it would be the first tower built since 1991 in that location when there were much better location at that time? I have faith, and i see it built in the future.
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  59. #1259

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    We did the arena without government funding did we not?

    Try again.
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  60. #1260

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    Yeah, the entire CRA is funnelling tax revenue towards the arena. How is that not government money? The city signed a long term lease on a office building? Again, government money.

    There was also funding from MacEwan for the "community rink". The ticket surcharge is also a tax that goes to the city to help pay off the arena. The vast majority of the funding is public money.

  61. #1261

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    The theme was " Federal and provincial." We got to stay with the context of the conversation.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  62. #1262

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The theme was " Federal and provincial." We got to stay with the context of the conversation.
    $7 million in Federal Gas Tax funding, plus the Province is contributing over $200M via the CRL diverting funds away from the province's coffers to pay for the interest on the Arena.
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  63. #1263

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    Yes, but that money was for Edmonton to use as is require which will be paid back to the city through businesses the project has/will procure . It is no different than borrowing money from a bank and paying it back. To my understanding, through one of this forum, that it has already done that(?).
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 22-03-2018 at 12:07 PM.
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  64. #1264

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Yes, but that money was for Edmonton to use as is require which will be paid back to the city through businesses the project has/will procure .
    The CRL is money that would have previously gone into the Province's coffers (not the CoE) to pay for things like schools, infrastructure & healthcare instead of paying down the debt on a deal designed to maximize the profitability of a plutocrat. $200M+ redirected from provincial coffers to service the debt on a public building we signed away all the direct financial benefits from.

    If it was ours to use as we please we'd not have required provincial assent for the CRL.
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    I’m sure the Galleria will be resurrected as our downtown grows, and the LRT is completed.
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    I am not so sure about that, but do hope elements can be resurrected and other cultural legacy donations made.
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  67. #1267

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    Noodle, Calgary got their share as well. Like I said, that money use for the arena has already been or will be gained back soon. Im a little lost with where you are heading. This is not like the coliseum where tax money was completely given to build that structure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Yes, but that money was for Edmonton to use as is require which will be paid back to the city through businesses the project has/will procure .
    The CRL is money that would have previously gone into the Province's coffers (not the CoE) to pay for things like schools, infrastructure & healthcare instead of paying down the debt on a deal designed to maximize the profitability of a plutocrat. $200M+ redirected from provincial coffers to service the debt on a public building we signed away all the direct financial benefits from.

    If it was ours to use as we please we'd not have required provincial assent for the CRL.

    Not to speak of the creative redirection of MSI funding the city received from the province for infrastructure projects which they conveniently fail to mention.


  69. #1269

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Noodle, Calgary got their share as well. Like I said, that money use for the arena has already been or will be gained back soon.
    Uh, no. That's not how a CRL works. The money that's currently being diverted to the City to pay for the arena & other vanity/revitalization projects Downtown won't go back where it belongs (the Provincial coffers) until the CRL expires 5 years before the Arena is paid off. So long as the CRL is in place we're directing money that could have gone into provincial coffers solely to service the debt. Instead of building new schools or hospitals, money is going to pay off the arena loan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Im a little lost with where you are heading.
    I'm not "going anywhere". You made a ridiculously, ludicrously incorrect statement about where the funding for the arena came from & I corrected you. If you're still lost, that's entirely on you. There's a huge amount of government money in the arena, from all 3 levels of government, with the largest chunk coming from the City & Province via the CRL.
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  70. #1270

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    It was talked about on the arena thread and the news.
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  71. #1271

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Noodle, Calgary got their share as well. Like I said, that money use for the arena has already been or will be gained back soon.
    Uh, no. That's not how a CRL works. The money that's currently being diverted to the City to pay for the arena & other vanity/revitalization projects Downtown won't go back where it belongs (the Provincial coffers) until the CRL expires 5 years before the Arena is paid off. So long as the CRL is in place we're directing money that could have gone into provincial coffers solely to service the debt. Instead of building new schools or hospitals, money is going to pay off the arena loan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Im a little lost with where you are heading.
    I'm not "going anywhere". You made a ridiculously, ludicrously incorrect statement about where the funding for the arena came from & I corrected you. If you're still lost, that's entirely on you. There's a huge amount of government money in the arena, from all 3 levels of government, with the largest chunk coming from the City & Province via the CRL.
    We'll just have agree we have different points of view.
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  72. #1272

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    We'll just have agree we have different points of view.
    This isn't something opinion-based.

    There's hundreds of millions in public funding in the arena, it's a simple, easily verifiable fact that you were 100% wrong about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    We'll just have agree we have different points of view.
    This isn't something opinion-based.

    There's hundreds of millions in public funding in the arena, it's a simple, easily verifiable fact that you were 100% wrong about.
    well the facts are probably easily verifiable but the conclusions - including yours - are often closer to opinion-based.

    yes, the province "financed" the crl monies that the city spent but that's not much different than the bank financing the purchase of your condo.

    it's not money spent and gone if it's being repaid. if it's being repaid, the loan is an asset, not a sunk cost never to be recovered.

    you're free to argue that it might have been better placed elsewhere, but that would be your opinion, not a fact.

    from the province's perspective - as well as the city's - if there is additional economic growth as a result of the actual expenditure, then the return on the loan is actually higher than the face rate of interest earned by the province/paid by the city. of course, that's just my opinion and in a decade or two the facts will tell us who was right.

    in the interim, all we have are our respective opinions but those facts which are available to date would seem to support mine more than yours.
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    I keep thinking about the stimulus that something like the galleria could have provided to our economy, not just the direct and indirect jobs it would create through the employment of thousands of construction workers, but the ancillary benefits it would have brought hand in hand with the museum. It single handedly would have changed the identity of the area and had far ranging economic impact that I don’t think the arena is capable of doing.

    Wasn’t it expected to double the population of the downtown or something?

  75. #1275

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    Professional hockey team > University arts program.

    We had a choice to make and we made it. Our priorities are clear. Katz made thinly veiled threats to move the team to Seattle or Quebec City and we folded like a house of cards. And for the next three decades we get to provide services to the ICE district with no property tax to pay for it. The tax monies instead go to paying off the arena. And it's the same with all the other new properties that go up in the CRL area, regardless of the impact the construction of the arena had on them.

  76. #1276

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Professional hockey team > University arts program.

    We had a choice to make and we made it. Our priorities are clear. Katz made thinly veiled threats to move the team to Seattle or Quebec City and we folded like a house of cards. And for the next three decades we get to provide services to the ICE district with no property tax to pay for it. The tax monies instead go to paying off the arena. And it's the same with all the other new properties that go up in the CRL area, regardless of the impact the construction of the arena had on them.
    Yep.

    And yet we have a "fiscal conservative" wanting to spend tons of public money to make Downtown more attractive (on top of the billion of public cash already spent) to then attract more families Downtown despite there being limited family-oriented infrastructure & the funds that would be generated in-neighbourhood to provide said infrastructure now go to debt servicing, placing the financial burden on the rest of the city.
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    I've forgotten the details on timelines for this project. Can anyone explain to me why they don't phase in this billion dollar development over a couple decades?
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  79. #1279

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    We did the arena without government funding did we not?
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    This is not like the coliseum where tax money was completely given to build that structure.
    I have tried to resist responding to various degrees of misinformation posted on this forum over the last several weeks but I cannot let these bald-faced lies go uncorrected.

    Forget about the CRL. Forget about points of view. Forget about what Calgary did or did not get.

    More than 96% of the funding for the arena came directly from government to the tune of $580 million of public funds being used to acquire the land (from Katz) and build the structure. These public funds were to take two forms: the city of Edmonton borrowing $541 million and $39 million of grants from other levels of government.

    This is not open for debate, nor is it a matter of opinion: it is a matter of public record as documented in CoE bylaw 15962. This bylaw, as amended in 2013, is the legal mechanism that allowed the city to borrow its share of the funds (and in so doing increase the city's debt to $2.2 billion (with a B)). The bylaw serves as the authoritative record on how the arena was paid for; the text of the bylaw reads (in part):

    BYLAW 15962 A Bylaw to authorize the City of Edmonton to acquire arena land, and to design and construct a downtown arena

    ...

    In order to acquire arena land and design the said Project, it will be necessary for the City of Edmonton to borrow the sum of $541,811,000.00 for the terms and conditions referred to in this bylaw, as detailed in Schedule “A”;

    The above expenditure was approved by the City of Edmonton in its estimate of capital expenditures through the 2009 – 2011 Capital Budget or approved by way of City Council resolution;

    ...

    The amount of the existing debenture debt of the City of Edmonton at December 31, 2012 is $2,232,921,181.89, as calculated in accordance with the Debt Limit Regulation, A.R. 255/2000, as amended, no part of which is in arrears;
    (Source: https://www.edmonton.ca/documents/PDF/C15962(2).pdf)

    Of course, it gets worse because most of the government grants never materialized so in 2016 the CoE had to borrow an additional $32 million dollars to make up the shortfall. This was allowed by bylaw 17639 which reads (in part):

    BYLAW 17639 A Bylaw to amend Bylaw 15962, as amended by Bylaw 16433, to authorize the City of Edmonton to acquire arena land, and to design and construct a downtown arena

    ...

    It has now been determined that the total cost of the said project is $611,859,000.00. The estimated grants and contributions to be received and applied to the capital project is has been revised by $32,000,000.00. Therefore, the borrowing authority will be increased by $31,559,019.00 from $541,811,000.00 to $573,370,019.00;
    (Source: http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/c...8060853473.PDF)

    So you can debate, if you wish, whether this was a good use of public money. You can even debate, if you wish, how this debt is to be repaid. But you cannot debate whether or not it was public money in the first place because it most certainly was.

  80. #1280

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    I'm well aware of that. The topic at hand was that the Galeria was halted because funding from provincial and federal did not come through. I stated we have alternative means when our downtown has sustained the targeted desired population. I threw in the angle of how as city we were able to pulled it off hence the position of where our conversation has led us. Ken Canter is also very cognizant of those facts and many other forumers here as well. Thank you for uploading that information for our newer forumers to peruse as they may be new to the city.
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  81. #1281

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    I'm well aware of that. The topic at hand was that the Galeria was halted because funding from provincial and federal did not come through. I stated we have alternative means when our downtown has sustained the targeted desired population. I threw in the angle of how as city we were able to pulled it off hence the position of where our conversation has led us. Ken Canter is also very cognizant of those facts and many other forumers here as well. Thank you for uploading that information for our newer forumers to peruse as they may be new to the city.
    Will you certainly didn't seem well aware of that when you said no government funding was used.

  82. #1282

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    It is in a firm of a loan which has to be paid back. The funding didn't come from "FEDERAL or PROVINCIAL." From the city's contribution perspective, it is really not funding either as that was a loan that will be recooperated through CRL.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  83. #1283

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It is in a firm of a loan which has to be paid back. The funding didn't come from "FEDERAL or PROVINCIAL." From the city's contribution perspective, it is really not funding either as that was a loan that will be recooperated through CRL.
    I can't tell if you're being serious or not. It's almost as if you're being deliberately obtuse.

    The city has borrowed $573 million to build the arena. This has already happened; there's no way to change it. Now the city's creditors want their money back (with interest).

    Please explain how the city can pay back the $573 million it owes without using any public money.

    (Oh and you spelt "recuperated" wrong. But what you really meant to say was "recouped" so that doesn't matter too much.)

  84. #1284

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    The arena is owned by the city not Katz.
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  85. #1285

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The arena is owned by the city not Katz.
    All that means is that we can't collect any property tax on it since it's a civic property. Katz gets 100% of all revenues from 100% of the events & has the ultimate say over when the City can use their arena. So we don't get any direct monetary benefit, nor can we exert any direct control over the operations, making the benefits of ownership infinitesimal while keeping the costs of ownership the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The arena is owned by the city not Katz.
    All that means is that we can't collect any property tax on it since it's a civic property. Katz gets 100% of all revenues from 100% of the events & has the ultimate say over when the City can use their arena. So we don't get any direct monetary benefit, nor can we exert any direct control over the operations, making the benefits of ownership infinitesimal while keeping the costs of ownership the same.
    I also believe with all that said, that the city is still in charge of the facility’s maintenance yes?

  87. #1287

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    I also believe with all that said, that the city is still in charge of the facility’s maintenance yes?
    Nope.

    • EAC will operate Rogers Place and pay all operating and maintenance expenses, and will receive all operating revenues, including naming rights and parking revenue.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/attractions_...agreement.aspx

    That being said, that's just for the arena itself. The City is on the hook for at least half of the already-leaking Ford Hall roof repairs, as that's a separate bit in the Agreement.
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    Is the roof leaking already ?

    That's hilarious.

  89. #1289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Is the roof leaking already ?

    That's hilarious.
    Yeppers!



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  90. #1290

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    I wonder why it's leaking?



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    Just roof it with shingles. Flexible and good as new.

  92. #1292

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    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  93. #1293

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    ^ You found the material they used for the exterior walls!

  94. #1294

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The arena is owned by the city not Katz.
    All that means is that we can't collect any property tax on it since it's a civic property. Katz gets 100% of all revenues from 100% of the events & has the ultimate say over when the City can use their arena. So we don't get any direct monetary benefit, nor can we exert any direct control over the operations, making the benefits of ownership infinitesimal while keeping the costs of ownership the same.
    If it city owned of course not; we are collecting from his developments and byproducts do to the arena. You must have seen businesses set up shops and more to com? We don't live in the ultimate socialist ideals so nothing is perfect, but, compared to other cities, i think we done quite well. Look at Calgary. They don't even know how to get onto the springboard to do the dive. In a perfect world, you have a point Noodle, but we are not in a perfect world and never will. It takes money to make money. The arena was our part in investment to spur downtown's developments. Would Ice exist? Would other developments downtown be as strong without he arena' s momentum? The most value outcome of it is that it changed the depressed mentality of our city, and no money can compare to that. We are both in our older years, so you must have seen the stagnant we went through, so I ask you this... Save that 500 million for stagnant or spend 500 million for progress? For me, I chose to spend. This is my opinion and cannot be alter unless it is my me.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 26-03-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  95. #1295

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    Ah yes, the capitalist paradise.

    The taxpayers build the billionaire the building he needs to run his business and let him run it, tax free, for 40 years. All so he can pay his players millions of dollars, in one case, 100 million over 10 years.

    Why doesn't the city do the same deals with other businesses? Want to open a car dealership? Let the taxpayers build it for you.

  96. #1296

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    If it city owned of course not; we are collecting from his developments and byproducts do to the arena.
    Except the only thing we're collecting is the pre-development value, the uplift is collected for repaying the debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    You must have seen businesses set up shops and more to com?
    Yay, more tax revenue diverted to pay off the lining of the pockets of a billionaire! Woop woop!


    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    We don't live in the ultimate socialist ideals so nothing is perfect, but, compared to other cities, i think we done quite well. Look at Calgary. They don't even know how to get onto the springboard to do the dive.
    We signed the most-lopsided arena deal economists had seen up until that point. I've no idea if anyone has bent over more thoroughly than us in the past decade, but if they have it's because we raised the bar in dropping trou & taking it from plutocrats.


    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    In a perfect world, you have a point Noodle, but we are not in a perfect world and never will. It takes money to make money.
    Except it's OUR money being spent & Katz' money being made. Any uplift only goes to paying off the debt thanks to the CRL.


    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The arena was our part in investment to spur downtown's developments.
    Which developments were specifically spurred by the Arena? Not Stantec, that was open for RFP before. Likewise the CoE tower. The hotel? Maybe, but we've had a deficit in the higher-end hotels in Edmonton for a while & there'd been rumblings for a long time prior to the Ice District


    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Would Ice exist? Would other developments downtown be as strong without he arena' s momentum?
    Yeah, I mean look at the huge impact it's had in the real issue with Downtown, office vacancies. Oh, wait, it exacerbated the issue? Nevermind then.


    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The most value outcome of it is that it changed the depressed mentality of our city, and no money can compare to that. We are both in our older years, so you must have seen the stagnant we went through, so I ask you this... Save that 500 million for stagnant or spend 500 million for progress?
    $500M into private hands so we can get enough developments downtown to pay for the loan, versus $500M that could be spent on any number of other needs that'd return a lot more on the investment than lining Katz' pockets & paying off debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    For me, I chose to spend. This is my opinion and cannot be alter unless it is my me.
    Bully for you? My views on your mental faculties & how much stake I place in your opinion should be obvious by now & I don't want to get into mudslinging.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    so how about that Edmonton Downtown Academic and Cultural Centre? Geez some folks will take any opportunity to derail, pick a fight and make it about Katz. I'm very disappointed with this turn of events. Originally it was about building the city an Opera house, which I was very much looking forward to; I know it's not everyone's cup of tea. Take me for example. I couldn't care less about hockey but I don't begrudge others (DAMN KATZ....see what I did there?). I think this project's demise was due to good old scope creep; first an opera house, then a few more people chirped in about a couple of extra performance spaces thrown in, then a glass covered plaza, then an office tower, then the UofA gets involved and makes demands left and right. I think that was the moment the wheels fell off the rails. I hope the Kipneses can get back to basics and get this thing done eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    For me, I chose to spend. This is my opinion and cannot be alter unless it is my me.
    Bully for you? My views on your mental faculties & how much stake I place in your opinion should be obvious by now & I don't want to get into mudslinging.
    Mudslinging, although tempting after enough driveling provocation, won't help. Recent activity proves that.

    Some might say the "Strength of a Man" is in his ability to resist the temptation to comment on virtually EVERY post on virtually EVERY thread as if it is a contractual obligation...

  99. #1299

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    Some might. I wouldn't, but some might.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  100. #1300

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I was never convinced that this project would work so I'm not surprised to see it stalled. You win some, you loose some...
    Yeah, it was obvious to Top_Dawg that this was pie in the sky stuff from the outset.


    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It is sad, but I still feel this will revive. Once the population of downtown nears the plateau that is planned for the paradigm, we will see this comeback to the drawing board.
    this worked - or would have - because it had a $100 million private sector philanthropic donation to kick start it. it’s “suspended” because there has been insufficient government support - primarily provincial and federal - to leverage that properly and it lacked a municipal champion to secure it. if the latter isn’t there while the first one still might be, there will, sadly, be nothing to revive. this had the potential to be more positive for downtown and the quarters and the north edge than the arena which is why it’s so sad. it would have brought 75 - 100 times more people downtown every day than work for dynalife.



    It's "suspended" because every level of government quickly realized that in very short order it would become an eternal money pit from hell.
    The only thing I can suggest is that you walk the walk and run for office.
    You seem to have a strong convicts of standards and that is respected. So do yourself proud and lead; tit for tat with my opinion is reductive, lead you no where, and resolves nothing.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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