Page 1 of 39 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 3815

Thread: Air Service Development, Routes, and carrier conversations

  1. #1
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    47,258

    Default Air Service Development, Routes, and carrier conversations

    Missed out on NYC again

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...928/story.html

    {ADMIN EDIT - I moved these posts from the Terminal Development thread as these deal with air service and carrier conversations}
    Last edited by Admin; 05-03-2012 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Commentary
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  2. #2
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,962

    Default

    Did you really think AC would add NYC to YEG, lets count the number of transborder flights they supply us................oh wait, it is zero.

    The only airlines that may give us service to the NYC area are Westjet or Continental (as it is an United Eastern hub).

  3. #3
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Summerside
    Posts
    1,577

    Default

    That's a east coast battl for market share, I wouldn't classify it as a loss as we weren't in the running for those type of flights to ward off WS New slots to start with

  4. #4
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    47,258

    Default

    Letter off to AC reminding them how I will continue to fly WJ where possible until we see some fair attention to YEG.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  5. #5

    Default

    Unfortunately as long as the majority of Edmontonians are perfectly happy connecting through Calgary, AC will not even give a moment's thought to your letter before they file it under "irrelevant".

  6. #6
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    5,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brentk View Post
    That's a east coast battl for market share, I wouldn't classify it as a loss as we weren't in the running for those type of flights to ward off WS New slots to start with
    Exactly.

    You'd think though, that if the market was really there, AC would have done this without prompting by WS.

    Meaning, this will be a repeat of AC's already-once-failed business plan to match WS on virtually every route.

    And it will be no surprise when, bleeding red ink yet-again, AC bullies its staff to take pay cuts.
    ... gobsmacked

  7. #7
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Unfortunately as long as the majority of Edmontonians are perfectly happy connecting through Calgary, AC will not even give a moment's thought to your letter before they file it under "irrelevant".
    Where did you get the idea its the majority? Its not. Its just a good portion thats all and portion large enough to screw the rest of us. EIA ought top have massive billboards stating if you fly from EIA there you get there faster, help this city etc. Right as you drive by. Or LARGE digital screens announcing the flights that are departing - as in "too bad your not on it".

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Unfortunately as long as the majority of Edmontonians are perfectly happy connecting through Calgary, AC will not even give a moment's thought to your letter before they file it under "irrelevant".
    Where did you get the idea its the majority? Its not. Its just a good portion thats all and portion large enough to screw the rest of us. EIA ought top have massive billboards stating if you fly from EIA there you get there faster, help this city etc. Right as you drive by. Or LARGE digital screens announcing the flights that are departing - as in "too bad your not on it".
    Let me rephrase. The majority of people who have made a habit out of flying through Calgary have been unresponsive to EIAs "Fly Edmonton First" campaign.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Letter off to AC reminding them how I will continue to fly WJ where possible until we see some fair attention to YEG.
    Actually Ian, we should organize a signature petition from Edmontonians... I recall in 2009 when Cathay Pacific reduced their flight frequency from Vanvouver, and I emailed Carol Hutchinson suggesting we go after that as we have a large south east Asian base here- Chinese & East Indian etc. She stated they tried, but I don't believe her. To my understanding, roughly 1000 people head to Vancouver daily to board planes for Asian. Think about this folks... That is two Boeing 747+ daily for Edmonton. We could approach leaders of the Chinese and East Indian communities for help; amongst others. I'm guessing the population of south eas Asian would be around 200 000+ in our city. The problem with Air Canada is that, it is emulating the American hub model, and at the same time, try to shut down West Jet with direct route competition. They have no confidence with their own direction; is too worried and focus on what others are doing rather than focussing on themselves. This is why they claim bankruptcy roughly every decade duration. On top this, we need to encourage EIA to go after more B.C population using the 'convenient in/out process' of our aiport. Vancouver is having too many delay problems now.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Unfortunately as long as the majority of Edmontonians are perfectly happy connecting through Calgary, AC will not even give a moment's thought to your letter before they file it under "irrelevant".
    Where did you get the idea its the majority? Its not. Its just a good portion thats all and portion large enough to screw the rest of us. EIA ought top have massive billboards stating if you fly from EIA there you get there faster, help this city etc. Right as you drive by. Or LARGE digital screens announcing the flights that are departing - as in "too bad your not on it".
    Let me rephrase. The majority of people who have made a habit out of flying through Calgary have been unresponsive to EIAs "Fly Edmonton First" campaign.
    It is this attitude that contributed to our past demises. You ranted the problem; now rave the solution to me like I just did with the above post. Complaining can be done with eyes completely closed and quite frankly, boring.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post

    Let me rephrase. The majority of people who have made a habit out of flying through Calgary have been unresponsive to EIAs "Fly Edmonton First" campaign.
    It is this attitude that contributed to our past demises. You ranted the problem; now rave the solution to me like I just did with the above post. Complaining can be done with eyes completely closed and quite frankly, boring.
    My "attitude" is not the problem. The problem is lack of flights and there's nothing you or I can do about that. The other problem is people bypassing EIA and driving to Calgary. Again, there's nothing you or I can do about that.

    A small percentage of those people may change their ways if you explain the issue to them, as was evident with the "Fly Edmonton First" campaign. But the vast majority of these people have either given up on EIA or simply couldn't care less. If those people don't change their attitudes, again, there is nothing you or I can do about that.

    If the airlines don't change their models then this is simply the way it's going to be. And unless you or I have a seat on the board of AC there is nothing you or I can do about that.

    You going to write a letter? It'll make no difference. Start a petition? Make no difference. What else can you do? Call the troubleshooter? Good luck to you, but unless you have clout you can make no difference.

  12. #12
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Summerside
    Posts
    1,577

    Default

    If one steps back and looks at the full picture you realise that one only makes a difference when they put their money where their mouth is. AC and WS are not going respond to the squeaky wheel of petition or a letter like political figure looking for re-election. They are looking tosses how they can make the most money plan and simple. Ctzn-Ed you stated that you wrote Carol at ERAA about Cathay Pacific and you doubt she even checked see if they would fly to YEG, why do you doubt her? Do you think attracting an airline, not just
    a New route is simple ? The business community and citizens of Edmonton need to utilize the services they have at YEG. That bringbsaid I would argue that both mentioned have done so. The ERAA says that connections through YYC are down by 10% in the past few years. I would also point out since the 2005 how many New routes have been added from Edmonton. One must realise that YEG has an uphill battle and always will. We are a strong focus city and neither WS or AC want YEG to become two strongoing of a focus city that we hurt their hubs else where. Sucks for us but it is reality ofbthe beast. What do we do? Keep flying routes hat are the best for the airport. Its working! We are seeing growth and more and more we are seeing airlines adding flights.
    Last edited by Brentk; 27-01-2012 at 02:25 PM.

  13. #13

    Default

    ^^You orated something we already know. What are the solution you think may help? Your idea/s may not be the 'end all solution,' but with collective thoughts, a grand finale could result in something better for us. Currently, you still have the ' I give up; there's nothing we can do...' attitude, and that, my friend, is de(ED)trimental to you and our community. Don't take offence to it... Now join me in coming up with solutions, so we can we can approach EIA... Even people in positions of making changes don't have all the solutions. This is why EIA and every company are
    not a 'one person' show. Food for thought... I much rather be a loser attempting something to better myself than be a loser and attempt nothing at all. The worse outcome is a no; the ultimate outcome is something that will benefit us all!

  14. #14
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Summerside
    Posts
    1,577

    Default

    Actually Im not giving up at all. If you knew me its far from that. I do know the industry well, and the industry is old school and set in its ways. To be able to grow our routes the only way to do is by creating money for airlines on risks they take on our market. The ERAA is knows what they are doing. The CEO is a very smart man. What I asked you was how did you know Carol at ERAA never followed up? If you are going to throw someone under the bus you should back it up. Also what is your solution besides being a squeaky wheel, we and the ERAA and the City of Edmonton have done that since deregulation.
    Last edited by Brentk; 27-01-2012 at 02:27 PM.

  15. #15

    Default

    ^^ Yes, BrentK, you are right! There has been incredible changes- and definitely one step at a time. I did not save the dialogue between her and I, but it was the way she responded that left doubt in my mind... West Jet has served us really well; it's Welfair Canada that I have an issue with... Both have similar business model- with hubs- but WJ realized that doing the American ideology can't be done for our population in Canada. Hence the alteration of their agenda to serve in Edmonton, and the results have been quite prosperous for them. Welfair Canada, in the meantime, focusses on wasting medals in trying to detered WJ from success; all in the meantime, not focussing on their business and improving their business. Why? Inferior complex; perhaps not astute enough to have a vission. Why waste money on metal, take off and landings-gas, landing fees etc. - when you can you have enough passengers here to go direct. They are losing money on duplicate costs. Hubs are fine when dealing with cities like Saskatoon, Regina etc. because their population cannot fill up like Edmonton.

    As well, I also suggested to them the advantage of advertising to BC residence the advantages of coming to our airport as means of travel as it is smaller, and processing etc would be quicker and more covenient. Why did I suggested this? We in the western world have been so spoiled and demand the Mc Drive through services... What better way than EIA? This has now been confirmed to me through the statement a few days ago... The CEO of Vancouver's airport stated, in part, "they fear Edmonton."
    On a side note, our geographical location is advantage over Calgary and Vancouver in Western Canada. Flight wise, we get to Asia & Europe faster than they do, and we are right in the centre of Western Canada. If airlines are talking about profits, when you can cut cost for gas, is that profit. One cent thrown away one time is nothing; collectlively over years, well, you get my picture. Throw in a business argument along with 1000s of signature petition...something could result.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brentk View Post
    Actually Im not giving up at all. If you knew me its far from that. I do know the industry well, and the industry is old school and set in its ways. To be able to grow our routes the only way to do is by creating money for airlines on risks they take on our market. The ERAA is knows what they are doing. The CEO is a very smart man. What I asked you was how did you know Carol at ERAA never followed up? If you are going to throw someone under the bus you should back it up. Also what is your solution besides being a squeaky wheel, we and the ERAA and the City of Edmonton have done that since deregulation.
    That reference was for Vincent-post #1102

  17. #17

    Default

    On a side note Brentk, I am not presenting a 'squeaky wheel,' and much like you, refused to be futiled by any obstacles. Hence, my support and expanded idea for Ian's suggestion of E-mailing Welfair Canada through signature petition, advertisement to BC and business ideas on how airlines can save etc.
    It's also good to hear/envission your thoughts. As well, no I don't have all the solutions; just part of...; and yes, I do have a big mouth and not afraid to express it. I just desire to give back to Edmonton and area, for the people here have given my father and I a second chance in life from our incredible insidious past.

  18. #18

    Default

    When WJ sets up its new carrier, you will see their jets sent to more profitable runs and YEG will be left with Q-400s to YYC/YWG/YQR/YXE/YMM/YQU.

    YVR will still be 737 unless they want to give the market to AC.

    Yes i know the flights are full, but, you can operate a full flight and still lose money. WJ is no different than AC, as we will soon find out. The economics of flying 737 to YYC are not justifiable likewise YQR/YXE even YWG.

    West Jet needs it 37s to fly transborder, that is where the money is. AC has responded to WJ entry into LGA by going hourly, WJ has to keep up.

  19. #19
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    2,533

    Default

    Anyone who hysterically calls Air Canada welfair canada does not have much credibility in my books

  20. #20
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Anyone who hysterically calls Air Canada welfair canada does not have much credibility in my books
    Agree. I would much rather have a really good airport with many flights to YVR and YYZ to connect than a single flight a day or 4x a week service (ie LHR), this would give more opportunities to get to where you want to go.

    We need to face reality a nd make the best of it.

  21. #21
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,962

    Default

    We already have tons of flights to YVR and YYZ. I rather have a great airport and continue to use better connecting airports like ORD, IAH, SFO, DEN, SEA, LHR, etc which supports YEG and gets me to my destination quicker. YEG is heading in the right direction and think a few more routes will be added with the opening of the new terminal.

  22. #22
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,605

    Default

    I expect our airport to give us superior service with as many direct flights as possible. To suggest that we just accept the status quo and learn to deal with it is absolutely deplorable.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  23. #23
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    11,020

    Default

    YEG is doing well with respect to flights and passenger counts. I think, though, that it's best for YEG to stay away from these political messages (Stop the Calgary Habit, Unite for More Flights) as these take away from the great job YEG is doing.

    One thing I think would be nice would be iPads (arrivals level) showing the attractions in the Edmonton area, as well as directions to tourist destinations. The Westin has these for their hotel guests.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  24. #24
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    2,533

    Default

    Yes, but Air Canada is running a REALLY tight ship right now. That is why we aren't getting anything.

    Talk to some Air Canada frequent flyers who have faced benefit reduction, or their own staff. They are being very aggressive on costs which is where the ridiculous statement of "welfair canada" doesn't really jibe today.

    I agree YEG needs more international flights. The demand is slowly being built. They will come eventually.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Anyone who hysterically calls Air Canada welfair canada does not have much credibility in my books
    I'm not seeking your credibility. You are who again? I don't recall yor signature on my paycheck that has allowed me the privelege of travelling around the world again & again...I answer only to my family and true friends as what I do in life will affect them.

    My resentment towards this airline is for this reason: It has no business plan, for it rests on its laurel due to the fact our government owns them-yyyyyes, our tax dollars! Having been a Canadian citizen for 32yrs- and very proud of it- this is the airlines achievement... Claiming bankruptcy in the mid-80s (government bail out); forced a take over of Canadian airline(formerly known as Ward Air-Edmonton based). Its reasonings, "Canada cannot function with two airlines." So, its parent, our government, approved it. While having complete monopoly in our country, puts itself in financial trouble again and sought another bail out- courtesy of you, me and the rest of Canadian tax payers. In the early 90s, a new airline emerged call West Jet- Capgary based whom consistently garners profit every quarter up to now, and still operating with profit. The reason for their conception? We got tired of your airline's waste of our tax dollar and giving us cut reduced service. Meanwhile, the airline you so adore, continues to function under some form of intoxication, forces it staffs to take pay cuts and so forth twice since WJ commencement- both times due to financial mismanagements. West Jest, adds new route; your airline matches in an attempt to impede West Jet success. Why would they have any interest of prudent responsiblity when the parents have our tax dollar ready to bail them out? Recently, WJ announced their entry to NY; your airline responds, add more flights to NY. Fool me once shame on your airline; foole twice, shame on me; fool me a third/fourth time, change all executives, or get out of the business. Minimum to no service for Edmonton; West jet incredible service for Edmonton. Verdict: West Jet, a true entreprenuriel. Your airline, a welfare recipient. Me, I will fly West Jet where I can or an American Airline. You know why WJ became so successful since its conception? Because, my child, Your airline showed no respect to the consumers- us Canadians- so, we all flocked to West Jet like gaggle of geeses and happily-still today. Did you enjoy that explanation?

  26. #26

    Default

    ^My apologies for missed spellings as this is done on my iPhone.

  27. #27
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Far away from clueless people.
    Posts
    341

    Default

    My head hurts from all the poor spelling and grammar. As for ctzn-Ed, your arguments, though passionate, are seriously lacking and terribly misguided. Go ahead and lob a salvo in my direction. I could not, I repeat, couldn't (contraction) give less of a ****.
    Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to...ZZZZZZZZZZ.....

  28. #28

    Default

    Sounds like ctzn-Ed is working off hearsay and conjecture.

  29. #29

    Default

    ^As mentioned, I did expressed my apolgies for missed spellings etc as I was using an iPhone- pretty hard to type and view without your reading glasses as your're being driven home from a night out, and having a conversation with a friend simultanously.

    As well, you stated I was misguided. Explain to me how so, and if there is any relevant information from you, I am more than willing to change my point of view... Stating someone is misguided without any back information is weak. That is giving an answer of "beacause... Why? Because...."
    your attempt of belittling/defaminging my character does not phase me. As a tax payer, I remember what they did!

  30. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Sounds like ctzn-Ed is working off hearsay and conjecture.
    Not conjecture but facts. There were two bail outs within a 7yr span. Force Canadian Airline to become part of its fleet. With a complete monopoly in Canada, they cut services nation wide-Edmonton included- and in the meantime, they hiked the prices to an exorbitant level. Henced West Jets' conception in '91 or '92. How do you think a prudent carrier in Canada came about? Air Canada's irresponsibility, made people turned against them. They, really, have never completely recovered From that.

  31. #31

    Default

    Furthermore, they lost my luggages twice and made no attempts to compansate me. The last time this occured, I went to meetings in jeans and T-shirts. Let me see, four suites at the cost of $2500-$3000. This is definitely not chump change of an investment!

  32. #32

    Default

    I'd like to know how Air Canada forced Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...anada_takeover

    Also might want to review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada

  33. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'd like to know how Air Canada forced Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...anada_takeover

    Also might want to review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada
    Wiki gets some of it Medwards....but lots of details left out.

    IMO
    Short form from what I know...
    CP absorbed Ward Air and the debt from it's expansion of it's fleet.
    IMO they essentially bought market share by absorbing Ward Air.

    This put CP in a tough position with a slightly aged fleet and high debt load, which in the financial world of the time, making it near impossible to upgrade to more efficient aircraft (cost per pass mile).

    Air Canada responded with it's usual low fare etc approach forcing CP to follow magnifying the problem.

    This pushed CP into a position where the then very profitable PWA absorbed CP creating Canadian Airlines International.

    Theory was good but basically same problem as CP, mid age fleet, high debt load, predatory market...it was only a matter of time till they became vulnerable and absorbed by Air Canada.

    Now Air Canada almost repeated the previous history, but they did dispose of a large number of the older aircraft. Started JAZZ and Tango using some to create those low fare carriers. But in short it put them into financial trouble and from there we have watched the modern progression between WestJet and Air Canada.

    That is a reader digest version of both what is out there in print, talking to many that lived through it and watching it happen at the time.

    Who says history doesn't repeat.

    My opinion

    Tom

  34. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'd like to know how Air Canada forced Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...anada_takeover

    Also might want to review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada
    Before I make any attempts to answer your question(s), could you please intimate your age to me, because I see you using 'wiki,' an unreliable source...

  35. #35

    Default

    So you don't have a rebuttal? Wiki, although not always completely accurate, is not wrong either, and is a reliable source of information.

    So go on - answer the question. How did Air Canada force Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet. the burden of proof rests with those making the claims
    Last edited by Medwards; 28-01-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  36. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I'd like to know how Air Canada forced Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...anada_takeover

    Also might want to review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada
    Wiki gets some of it Medwards....but lots of details left out.

    IMO
    Short form from what I know...
    CP absorbed Ward Air and the debt from it's expansion of it's fleet.


    IMO they essentially bought market share by absorbing Ward Air.



    This put CP in a tough position with a slightly aged fleet and high debt load, which in the financial world of the time, making it near impossible to upgrade to more efficient aircraft (cost per pass mile).

    Air Canada responded with it's usual low fare etc approach forcing CP to follow magnifying the problem.

    This pushed CP into a position where the then very profitable PWA absorbed CP creating Canadian Airlines International.

    Theory was good but basically same problem as CP, mid age fleet, high debt load, predatory market...it was only a matter of time till they became vulnerable and absorbed by Air Canada.

    Now Air Canada almost repeated the previous history, but they did dispose of a large number of the older aircraft. Started JAZZ and Tango using some to create those low fare carriers. But in short it put them into financial trouble and from there we have watched the modern progression between WestJet and Air Canada.

    That is a reader digest version of both what is out there in print, talking to many that lived through it and watching it happen at the time.

    Who says history doesn't repeat.

    My opinion

    Tom
    Thank you Tom! Through your other posts, I concluded that you have an avid passion for aviation. As well, no offence intended, your sage wisdom exceeds that of mine. Your perspective is not an opinion, and infact, the truth! You expanded and expounded much more than I could have. I was only in my mid-teens during the era of 'CP & Ward Air,' but I had astute interest in current event even that age. It is good to have individual such as you extolling history to our young pannelists!

    It perturbs me just a little bit, when individuals dismisses your life experience for the sake of 'wiki.' On an extreme comparison, it is like telling a holocaust survivor that certain events didn't occur to them.

  37. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So you don't have a rebuttal? Wiki, although not always completely accurate, is not wrong either, and is a reliable source of information.

    So go on - answer the question. How did Air Canada force Canadian Airlines to become part of its fleet. the burden of proof rests with those making the claims
    Not the least my friend... During this period, Air Canada and Canadian Airlines had different destination. In essence, a non competing clause with each other. Air Canada was the dominant carrier. After their first bankruptcy- since my arrival to Canada- they had a second bankruptcy , as I had alluded to before, 7 yrs. later. They then used this bankruptcy and argued that Canada could not support two airlines in our country. Due to such, they went after Canadian airlines. If my memory recalls correctly, Canadian Airline and our citizens rejected this notion heavily. They continued their rants stating Air Canada would fall into complete demise if this didn't happen- in essence, using the argument that there would be no air service for Canada. Our federal government approved it because it was there airline. Henced no more Canadian Airlines!

    Furthermore Medward, when West Jet, first came into operation, they only served Western Canada- hence their name 'WEST' Jet. Were you aware of that, or is this just hearsay and conjecture on my part? You can peruse through wiki if you so choose. I lived it.

  38. #38
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    E-town!
    Posts
    421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Sounds like ctzn-Ed is working off hearsay and conjecture.
    Not conjecture but facts. There were two bail outs within a 7yr span. Force Canadian Airline to become part of its fleet. With a complete monopoly in Canada, they cut services nation wide-Edmonton included- and in the meantime, they hiked the prices to an exorbitant level. Henced West Jets' conception in '91 or '92. How do you think a prudent carrier in Canada came about? Air Canada's irresponsibility, made people turned against them. They, really, have never completely recovered From that.
    You do realize that your facts are all wrong right? First WestJet started in 1996. Secondly both Airlines (Air Canada and Canadian) where in horrible states when the merge happened, we were going to be a country with out a National carrier since there was no one to fill in the void at that time.

    Air Canada's moves as of late are protecting their lucrative routes in the East, I don't blame them for that. These markets are their bread and butter and everyone in their right mind would expect them to fight a good fight to protect them.

    For some reason some of the older generation in these forums don't realize that we are not in a regulated market anymore...let me rephrase...they think Air Canada is regulated and WestJet free to do what they want. The only area that this is sort of true is that Air Canada has some restrictions left on it from when deregulation happened...ie French/English service on all flights, hq in Montreal.

    Like others have stated above if you are going to start bashing YEG, AC, or even WS provide factual information, otherwise your statements are waste of our time, since your just going off of hearsay and talking circles only with yourself.

    Going back to interesting facts, did you know Air Canada approached United about starting up service to YEG back in the early 2000's when AirBC started retiring aircraft thus canceling their flight to DEN from YEG? United and AirCanada are one of the strongest aligned airlines in the world. YEG service has been UAL mainly because AC doesn't have a tonne of extra aircraft lying around.

  39. #39

    Default

    Actually...

    Secondly both Airlines (Air Canada and Canadian) where in horrible states when the merge happened, we were going to be a country with out a National carrier since there was no one to fill in the void at that time.
    Both had financial issues at the time, IMO Air Canada's caused by driving down fare pricing to weaken Canadian and Canadian's caused by their debt loading from the CP/PWA merger.

    Ctzn-ed is partly right that a large number of MP's were opposed to the merger as it created a monopoly...but Air Canada pushed the semi accurate "we will have no airline" tactic effectively over riding a number of other private take overs in progress at the time that were waiting for the cost to take over to drop to a survivable level.

    Net result was Air Canada successfully lobbied but had to absorb a much greater debt load to block potential competition and suffered the resulting extended financial ills.

    Air Canada's irresponsibility, made people turned against them. They, really, have never completely recovered From that.
    While a broad comment not completely incorrect...Air Canada's actions for many years did turn customers against them.

    But I will say my recent experiences with AC have shown huge improvement and WestJet, while still good, is not as good as I had previously experienced.

    The two are much closer service wise than previously.

    As fer as us older folks...I do not believe you are correct at all, but what we have seen for decades is how Air Canada has played the game and used political connections to maintain dominance.

    As far as deregulation...in general in North America the airlines have never recovered, profit margins remain slim, debt loads increasing and working conditions deteriorate.

    There are a very few exceptions, but not many IMO.

    My opinion

    Tom
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 28-01-2012 at 01:15 PM. Reason: correcting wording, added comment at the bottom

  40. #40

    Default

    Going back to interesting facts, did you know Air Canada approached United about starting up service to YEG back in the early 2000's when AirBC started retiring aircraft thus canceling their flight to DEN from YEG? United and AirCanada are one of the strongest aligned airlines in the world. YEG service has been UAL mainly because AC doesn't have a tonne of extra aircraft lying around.
    Interesting and something I had not run into...

    That said you do realize that is when AC was dumping aircraft and had JAZZ and Tango running at low loads (which led to their discontinuation)?

  41. #41

    Default

    ^your right 53 latitude! I'm merely intimating my displeasure for Air Canada's business concept and wasn't trying to assert knowlegde of aviation. The fact still remains... While having a complete monopoly and still fail in economics says a lot about their strategies. As well, to prove to certain pannelists that my points were not hearsay, conjecture , and that Im not hysterical. My experience with them has been not memorable. Further, the fact that West Jet, has been profitable from the get go tells me something is fundamentally wrong with Air Canada business approach. The precise dates and so forth are just trivial to the point, but my arguments still stands. Thanks for clearing my mories as well!

  42. #42
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    South Beverly Heights in a small house with a large lot!!
    Posts
    2,092

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Last week I flew into EIA from Mexico (I live in CGY but the group i was going with is all from Edm and it was much cheaper going through EIA). It was quite frankly one of the best international arrival experiences I have ever had in Canada. It was a very short walk from the plane to immigration and a direct route, unlike at YYC where you seem to walk forever through all sorts of back hallways. When we got to immigration the staff were not particularly friendly but very efficient (didn't charge me duty for going over on liquor purchases). The best part was that EVERY booth was manned by an immigration official. I have only ever seen that at Heathrow. I have never seen that many officials in YYC. BTW the Airport looks fantastic, can't wait to see the expansion. I would fly through this airport any time!
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

  43. #43

    Default

    To AAAAE, I want to apologize to you... That reference will not be used again, but my distaste for that airline will not change, for reasons I hope you understand. I much rather dialogue with you rather than against you as that is wasted energy which could be used to help us all. My attitude of the airline could (willing) change if they innitiate improvemnts to our city. I don't expect us to become hubs, but I do expect a better commitment from them. I hope our future dialogue is one of enlightenment and constructiveness.


    ... But dammit, I am not hysterical lol...

  44. #44
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,355

    Default

    I thought the takeover of Canadian Airlines by Air Canada was largely directed by the federal government. I could very well be wrong, but that's how I remember it happening. Canadian would have gone bankrupt and thousands of the company's employees would have been laid off.

  45. #45
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    2,533

    Default

    Thank you for that ctzn-Ed. I would still argue that Air Canada, in its current form is highly strategic and cut throat competitive.
    This is actually evidenced by the attempted hubbing of Edmonton passengers to other cities like Calgary.

    Air Canada also likes to engage in fare wars. However, in markets with less competition will charge as high a rate as they can get away with.

    Again evidence of a very aggressive (and non-burecratic) business. Too bad the current situation has served YEG so poorly however.

    With continued market growth here we will see new flights.

  46. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I thought the takeover of Canadian Airlines by Air Canada was largely directed by the federal government. I could very well be wrong, but that's how I remember it happening. Canadian would have gone bankrupt and thousands of the company's employees would have been laid off.
    Our federal government approved the take over... Keep in mind, West Jet is a private company with major investors and shareholders; *** Canada, on the otherhand, is a financed institution by the Feds- you got it, our tax dollars. If you connect the dots, you could see why Im displeased with them. Our tax dollars were used to bail them out in the past; but we are not privy to their service ( minimal). All major cities of Canada should be serviced well.

  47. #47
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Far away from clueless people.
    Posts
    341

    Default

    (Sigh.....)
    Yes, they were bailed out. Yes, they were a crown corporation at the time. Yes, since they're a privately held corporation, they've been "aided" by the feds to stay afloat, through short-term (unused) lending, national transportation policy protectiveness, etc, but what the folks on Parliament Hill want to do to protect a major Canadian employer is entirely their prerogative. I don't disagree with it, either. You, on the other hand, somehow dredge up stuff from 1976 and thereabouts in a senseless rant about how they're no longer offering up the service as though it's AirCanada/CP circa 1976. There's a newsflash here somewhere, methinks. If you can't smell what me cookin', then you best get out of the kitchen. You got screwed out of some suits. You'll have to get over that because if they (AC) were expected to compensate you dollar-for-dollar for everything that went missing at airports that they service, then I'll readily claim to have lost luggage carrying $5000 cash, a couple Armani suits, and my favourite gold-plated undies every time I fly.

    From a financial perspective, if you can't fathom why WS and AC are in two different boats, then you need to take an economics course or two. Even the most basic will do. (This is where you claim to be a financial adviser or a broker or something of that ilk. ) Look, I've got nothing against you personally. You've just got to be prepared to look at things from a more balanced perspective. Things are what they are, and if that means YEG is at the bottom of the AC food chain, then so be it. We're getting 'decent' service in the interim. It will get better. In the meantime, take a little less WS koolaid because have you seen some of their prices to the States....?!? You want to talk monopoly?
    Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to...ZZZZZZZZZZ.....

  48. #48

    Default

    YEGATC said it better. Delete post.

  49. #49
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    31,481

    Default

    Can the Air Canada topic be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with terminal expansion.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  50. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Can the Air Canada topic be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with terminal expansion.
    Concur SDM hence my innuendos with fellow pannelists to put their two cents worth into the pot to encourage flyerships to EIA- whether one believes it to be pertinent or not. Sometimes what appears to be irrelevant, may spark a "grandeur."

    As for YEGcat, I'm familiar with both models- although not an authority at it- on the last note. Comparing the two since '96, *** Canada has had some form of financial difficulties four times. West Jet continuous profits under the radar. The hub system we have is flawed. It is proving so in the US- with a population over 300 mil. I asserted that *** Canada should focus on their business and improving that. However, their too concern with what WJ has plan and counteracts by putting metals on the same route knowing it won't be profitable in an attempt to shut out compitition. When you're focus on shutting people out of a route you normally don't serviced, that is economic failure. Wouldn't those planes be better used on your business platform. As alluded before, there are factors for gasoline, take off and landing fees, etc. Why waste that? For the sake of putting West Jet out of business- which won't happen?

    Side note, every descent individual has the right to be be treated with general respect and dignity in life. This airline did not do so with me. It was not about the material issues- although a small part.

  51. #51

    Default

    Back on topic...I was at the airport recently and noticed that the Old Stairway going down to Arrivals (across from Northern Bush Pilot) has once again been designated as a one-way arrivals portal. It used to be a portal a long time ago (back in the 90's when we still had the Harvey's ), but was left generally unused until now. The new portal is now known as "Arrivals B."
    Last edited by JordanGalhanth; 29-01-2012 at 07:38 PM.

  52. #52
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Far away from clueless people.
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Can the Air Canada topic be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with terminal expansion.
    You're absolutely correct. Air Canada will have nothing to do with the expansion......
    ....
    ....
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ....
    ....
    Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to...ZZZZZZZZZZ.....

  53. #53
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,605

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yegatc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonic death monkey View Post
    can the air canada topic be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with terminal expansion.
    you're absolutely correct. Air canada will have nothing to do with the expansion......
    ....
    ....
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ....
    ....
    h
    h
    s
    s
    s
    h
    h
    ?
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  54. #54
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Any airline flying into YEG has something to do with the expansion. YEG is served quite well by both Westjet and Air Canada, with AC and it's partners providing the best access outside of Canada.

    Unfortunately airlines are businesses and can't wait for cities or airports to get their act together. The operating paradigm is the same for both carriers and both have similar market shares.

  55. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by yegatc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonic death monkey View Post
    can the air canada topic be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with terminal expansion.
    you're absolutely correct. Air canada will have nothing to do with the expansion......
    ....
    ....
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ....
    ....
    h
    h
    s
    s
    s
    h
    h
    ?
    . - . .
    - - -
    . - . .

    L
    o
    L

  56. #56
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    St Albert
    Posts
    133

    Default

    Westjet announced its summer schedule today.

    Have they not noticed our expansion?

    Absolutely nothing for YEG... all new flights/routes are YYZ or YVR.

    http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=628

  57. #57
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Far away from clueless people.
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Any airline flying into YEG has something to do with the expansion. YEG is served quite well by both Westjet and Air Canada, with AC and it's partners providing the best access outside of Canada.

    Unfortunately airlines are businesses and can't wait for cities or airports to get their act together. The operating paradigm is the same for both carriers and both have similar market shares.
    Suppose I should've put "rolly eyes", in the event that would've been missed by some. And yes, I was partially defending them before, and now I would like ctzn-Ed to take notice of how much WS has "boosted" YEG service. SFA. <--- need me to decipher that, Glenco?
    Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to...ZZZZZZZZZZ.....

  58. #58
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,605

    Default

    I would not get too excited about the lack of service from WS just yet it does seem incomplete. What intrigues me is the start of service to Whitehorse. From where? If they service it the same way they did Yellowknife we could end up being very happy.
    I never said I boycott AC far from it. It is very frustrating though to see their lack of commitment to their market from here. Don't give me the bs about AC and it's partners. If they were really interested in helping to develop service to YEG they would be asking "how can we help" As far as I know the execs from AC don't want to look anyone from Edmonton in the eye. Obviously there is a very strong transborder market here. WS must be making a killing as they actively develop THEIR market.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  59. #59
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,605

    Default

    [QUOTE=YEGatc;418303. SFA. <--- need me to decipher that, Glenco?[/QUOTE]
    San Francisco? I thought it was SFO.
    Last edited by Glenco; 31-01-2012 at 01:25 PM.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  60. #60

    Default

    ^ Re: YEGcat
    Out of respect for those whom have requested this post to be dicussed pertaining issues of EIA expansion, perhaps a new post should be established regarding air service...

    I'll will only reply to this one last time... *** Canada rewarded us with minimal service, but my tax dollar is associated with them. They have an incredible part of EIA's real estate. WJ, on the other hand, commits to our city with more connections than *** Canada with a decrepit part of the terminal with no room to expand services. Do you how to connect the dots togerther? I am a firm believer that respect is a two way street. Falsifying my friendship with my cash face to face, and behind my back, well you get my picture. Further, there is nothing you can do to augment my convictions and beliefs. It is up to *** Canada to take innitiative with good faith to the public before I can even commenced reversal of attitude. Picking out parts here and there to argue will not persuade me. I'm thinking of Edmonton's economic future and that dependants of the air service for prosperity. If the government's game is aviation at everyone expense, the least they coud do is provide air services to Canada's six major cities. The pertinent of this service are for economic and image to the world. What major cities in other countries requires their population to be funneled to a hub?

  61. #61
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Any airline flying into YEG has something to do with the expansion. YEG is served quite well by both Westjet and Air Canada, with AC and it's partners providing the best access outside of Canada.

    Unfortunately airlines are businesses and can't wait for cities or airports to get their act together. The operating paradigm is the same for both carriers and both have similar market shares.
    It is NOT AC metal that serves Edmonton to the USA. The Airport screens (all of them) should state the airline who owns, flys and staffs the plane. They could put small 2 letters for code shares. United should be FIXED on the screen as THAT is who operates the planes. I could care less about their partnerships - I am the consumer and want to know who the airlines is that is actually flying - not their so called code share alliance crap. The code share ref. should be secondary information on the screens. EIA could find a way to do that for sure.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 31-01-2012 at 01:44 PM.

  62. #62
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    5,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod View Post
    Westjet announced its summer schedule today.

    Have they not noticed our expansion?

    Absolutely nothing for YEG... all new flights/routes are YYZ or YVR.

    http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=628
    YYZ will be ground zero for Air Wars III, possibly the air war to end all air wars!

    Slightly dramatic, but between Porter, AC and WJA, there's going to bre financial blood on the Pearson tarmac for awhile.

    Alas, maybe have to wait for CO to get LGA for us ... *sigh*
    ... gobsmacked

  63. #63
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,962

    Default

    I think you mean Newark as that is a Continental/United hub and flights to/from LaGuardia have a maximum range of 1500 statute miles (2400 km).

    LaGuardia is the busiest airport in the United States without any non-stop service to and from Europe.[4] A perimeter rule prohibits nonstop flights to or from points beyond 1,500 statute miles (2,400 km). Exceptions to the perimeter rule are flights on Saturdays and flights to Denver. Transcontinental and international flights use Kennedy International or Newark Liberty.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaGuardia_Airport

  64. #64

    Default

    ^ although Newark is in New Jersey, it's just across the Hudson River-so really part of New York. Akin to Edmonton-St.Albert/Sherwood Park.

  65. #65
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    St Albert
    Posts
    133

    Default

    Somebody at Westjet told me that with this new summer schedule, YYZ will actually have more flights per week than YYC. For the first time in Westjet history, YYC won't be its number 1 base. A direct result of the YYZ-LGA route.

    Whether Westjet has finalized its summer flights or not, YEG has received nothing. Apparently, there will be one extra weekly flight each to Vegas, Calgary and Vancouver. Speechless! Glenco, the daily Whitehorse flight will be from Vancouver not YEG.

    I am sure summer flying is not final but United is only showing 3 daily Denver, 2 daily Chicago and 2 daily SFO as well. CO to Houston back to 1 daily and US to PhX back to 1 daily for the summer as well. Sooo even transborder is looking rather pathetic right now. This blows me away since we have been showing exceptional growth.

    Where is the second London flight "they" were talking about earlier....

  66. #66
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    5,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    I think you mean Newark as that is a Continental/United hub and flights to/from LaGuardia have a maximum range of 1500 statute miles (2400 km).
    Whoops, yes. Thanks
    ... gobsmacked

  67. #67

    Default

    With Whitehorse, WJ is only competing with AC so the YVR run is the likely battle ground. The Air North flight to Alberta stops in YYC first but most people on the flight travel through YEG.

  68. #68
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^ although Newark is in New Jersey, it's just across the Hudson River-so really part of New York. Akin to Edmonton-St.Albert/Sherwood Park.
    Its a great way to get to NYC via a quick connection in MSP, usually around 7 hours one way with layovers.

  69. #69
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Any airline flying into YEG has something to do with the expansion. YEG is served quite well by both Westjet and Air Canada, with AC and it's partners providing the best access outside of Canada.

    Unfortunately airlines are businesses and can't wait for cities or airports to get their act together. The operating paradigm is the same for both carriers and both have similar market shares.
    It is NOT AC metal that serves Edmonton to the USA. The Airport screens (all of them) should state the airline who owns, flys and staffs the plane. They could put small 2 letters for code shares. United should be FIXED on the screen as THAT is who operates the planes. I could care less about their partnerships - I am the consumer and want to know who the airlines is that is actually flying - not their so called code share alliance crap. The code share ref. should be secondary information on the screens. EIA could find a way to do that for sure.
    No it is not AC metal but they do work together in the service, and all those flights are easily booked through AC.

    As is clear Westjet is not adding anything for the summer. I would not be surprised to see Westjet move to the newer area and a portion of the old area closed, since there will be way more gates than required, of course if business picks up they will be opened.

    I think it has more to do with the attitude the airport and Edmonton in general has that hurts any significant expansion by AC, along with limited aircraft to deploy which as a business they deploy to maximize return.

  70. #70
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    2,533

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod View Post
    Westjet announced its summer schedule today.

    Have they not noticed our expansion?

    Absolutely nothing for YEG... all new flights/routes are YYZ or YVR.

    http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=628
    here are some changes for yeg

    United to houston double daily for april onward now. Formerly the flight did not operate one day of the week

    United to Chicago also true double daily (april)

    WestJet to Vegas:
    JUNE Last year: 1.4 flight daily (calculated weekly), This year: 1.6 flights daily
    JULY 1.5 Last year, 1.6 this year
    AUGUST 1.4 last year, 1.5 this year
    SEPTEMBER 1.8 last, 2.0 this year
    OCTOBER 1.9 last, 2.0 this year.

    WestJet to Phoenix:
    MAY 0.3>0.5
    OCTOBER 0.2>0.7

    WestJet to Palm Springs:
    MAY 0>0.3
    OCT 0.1>0.4


    So let's do some research before claiming that YEG has not had any flight increases.

    source: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/5373870/

  71. #71
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    ^key word is "new" routes, not increased frequencies.

  72. #72
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    St Albert
    Posts
    133

    Default

    ^ actually increased frequencies is also important, but a couple of additional frequencies per week on a few routes is not going to fill the gates.

    Westjet to Vegas is only 1 extra flight per week. The other Westjet flights are showing minor adjustments earlier and later in their seasons, but in effect it is just a couple of extra flights per week.

    CO is only showing 1 daily Houston, effective 2 June for the entire summer. That may obviously change later.

    As for United, last summer UA to Denver had 4 daily and Chicago 3 daily. United is known for adjusting their schedules quite often so of course this could change. I am just surprised to see 2 less daily than last summer at this stage.

    To make this expansion viable, we have to get new airlines/routes.

    Until we see some actual significant announcements, like a new route, or an additional DAILY flight, let's not kid ourselves with an extra flight on Saturdays or whenever.

    There is definitely no excuse now saying we do not have the capacity.... we do, so let's see it getting used.

    Again, does anybody have any info on this second London flight they talked about a few months ago?
    Last edited by Jarrod; 31-01-2012 at 06:16 PM.

  73. #73
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    ^Exactly!

    And there other airports that will likely see more routes before YEG, such as YMM which as a community s booming more than in 2008.
    Last edited by jbubble; 01-02-2012 at 12:40 AM.

  74. #74
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    I think it has more to do with the attitude the airport and Edmonton in general has that hurts any significant expansion by AC, along with limited aircraft to deploy which as a business they deploy to maximize return.
    That is one of the most mindless comments I have read on this or any other forum.

  75. #75
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    4,605

    Default

    ^You beat me to it.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  76. #76
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    I think it has more to do with the attitude the airport and Edmonton in general has that hurts any significant expansion by AC, along with limited aircraft to deploy which as a business they deploy to maximize return.
    That is one of the most mindless comments I have read on this or any other forum.
    Well any business relationship takes two. And if one party is always talking negatively the other party may be less willing to provide more business.

    Not sure how that is mindless. Pointing out the a vinous perhaps.

  77. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^ although Newark is in New Jersey, it's just across the Hudson River-so really part of New York. Akin to Edmonton-St.Albert/Sherwood Park.
    Its a great way to get to NYC via a quick connection in MSP, usually around 7 hours one way with layovers.
    Concur! That is preference when possible. Most times I do Edm-Chi-NY do to work- time alignment with employer.

  78. #78
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    11,020

    Default

    I think one thing Air Canada may look at are first class (or executive class) seat sales. Calgary and Toronto may have more seats they could sell for a higher margin compared to Edmonton. Edmonton's sales are largely economy class.

    Perhaps Edmonton could shoot for additional service (from Air Canada) to eastern Canadian destinations (Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax), without having to transfer in Toronto. I think that if we could sell Edmonton as a lucrative market (6.5 million passengers annually), and offering a greater advantage than trying to maintain market share in certain hubs, they might go for this.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  79. #79
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Far away from clueless people.
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    ^ Re: YEGcat
    Out of respect for those whom have requested this post to be dicussed pertaining issues of EIA expansion, perhaps a new post should be established regarding air service...

    I'll will only reply to this one last time... *** Canada rewarded us with minimal service, but my tax dollar is associated with them. They have an incredible part of EIA's real estate. WJ, on the other hand, commits to our city with more connections than *** Canada with a decrepit part of the terminal with no room to expand services. Do you how to connect the dots togerther? I am a firm believer that respect is a two way street. Falsifying my friendship with my cash face to face, and behind my back, well you get my picture. Further, there is nothing you can do to augment my convictions and beliefs. It is up to *** Canada to take innitiative with good faith to the public before I can even commenced reversal of attitude. Picking out parts here and there to argue will not persuade me. I'm thinking of Edmonton's economic future and that dependants of the air service for prosperity. If the government's game is aviation at everyone expense, the least they coud do is provide air services to Canada's six major cities. The pertinent of this service are for economic and image to the world. What major cities in other countries requires their population to be funneled to a hub?
    Huh? Ok. And I agree, there is nothing I could say to 'augment' your convictions....

    YEG-A.T.C.
    Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to 160, contact tower. Slow to...ZZZZZZZZZZ.....

  80. #80
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    2,712

    Default

    My wife and I are planning a trip to Ireland in May. For months we've been checking prices. Edmonton-London-Dublin is consistently $150 to $200 more expensive than Edmonton-Calgary-London-Dublin. If we fly direct from Calgary to London we can save $250 compared to Edmonton to London.

    One gets the impression that Air Canada is trying to kill the Edmonton to London route by directing traffic through Calgary. I would love to hear another explanation or justification for this price differential.

  81. #81
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    My wife and I are planning a trip to Ireland in May. For months we've been checking prices. Edmonton-London-Dublin is consistently $150 to $200 more expensive than Edmonton-Calgary-London-Dublin. If we fly direct from Calgary to London we can save $250 compared to Edmonton to London.

    One gets the impression that Air Canada is trying to kill the Edmonton to London route by directing traffic through Calgary. I would love to hear another explanation or justification for this price differential.
    Suggest you look at only the AC flights to LHR from YEG and a separate price for tickets from LHR to Dublin and back too LHR to catch the AC flight to YEG. I do just that and save $$. Also I will pay a premium to fly from Edmonton anytime...and my contribution to growth of our airport for the future.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 02-03-2012 at 08:52 PM.

  82. #82

    Default

    I'm doing the same flight in July, but going Edmonton Chicago Dublin....................significantly cheaper {$600 per ticket} than through TO or Cowtown. Check through the Aer Lingus site.

    The added cost direct to London from here as opposed to Calgary to London has always bugged me!
    Edmontonian and proud of it!

  83. #83
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    My wife and I are planning a trip to Ireland in May. For months we've been checking prices. Edmonton-London-Dublin is consistently $150 to $200 more expensive than Edmonton-Calgary-London-Dublin. If we fly direct from Calgary to London we can save $250 compared to Edmonton to London.

    One gets the impression that Air Canada is trying to kill the Edmonton to London route by directing traffic through Calgary. I would love to hear another explanation or justification for this price differential.
    Just good old supply and demand in action!

    I would book a separate ticket to Dublin, and either go YEG-LHR or even nnect via YVR.

  84. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    My wife and I are planning a trip to Ireland in May. For months we've been checking prices. Edmonton-London-Dublin is consistently $150 to $200 more expensive than Edmonton-Calgary-London-Dublin. If we fly direct from Calgary to London we can save $250 compared to Edmonton to London.

    One gets the impression that Air Canada is trying to kill the Edmonton to London route by directing traffic through Calgary. I would love to hear another explanation or justification for this price differential.
    Just good old supply and demand in action!

    I would book a separate ticket to Dublin, and either go YEG-LHR or even nnect via YVR.
    If supply and demand makes our prices higher then that means we have more demand here than in Calgary. Is that what you're saying?

  85. #85
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    2,712

    Default

    Checked out Aer Lingus via Chicago to Dublin. They were slightly more than Edmonton London Dublin at today's prices for the dates we need to travel. Booking Edmonton London Dublin as separate flights is exactly the same price as combining them. And I refuse to add on the extra time and distance and make two stops by connecting via Vancouver and Amsterdam even though it is a bit cheaper.

    Since I raised the concern about whether Air Canada has a policy of routing Edmonton passengers through Calgary, here are a comparison of all-in prices from earlier today for the dates we plan to be away (we have limited flexibility re dates):
    Edmonton London Dublin - $1727/person
    Edmonton Calgary London Dublin - $1561/person
    Calgary London Dublin - $1474/person

    Airline pricing does fluctuate almost daily. But I've been checking every few days for the past 6 weeks and these Edmonton vs Calgary pricing discrepancies have been fairly consistent.

    I'd love to hear somebody from YEG (or Air Canada) comment on this. IMO it's outrageous especially when Edmonton London is actually a shorter travel distance than Calgary London.

  86. #86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Checked out Aer Lingus via Chicago to Dublin. They were slightly more than Edmonton London Dublin at today's prices for the dates we need to travel. Booking Edmonton London Dublin as separate flights is exactly the same price as combining them. And I refuse to add on the extra time and distance and make two stops by connecting via Vancouver and Amsterdam even though it is a bit cheaper.

    Since I raised the concern about whether Air Canada has a policy of routing Edmonton passengers through Calgary, here are a comparison of all-in prices from earlier today for the dates we plan to be away (we have limited flexibility re dates):
    Edmonton London Dublin - $1727/person
    Edmonton Calgary London Dublin - $1561/person
    Calgary London Dublin - $1474/person

    Airline pricing does fluctuate almost daily. But I've been checking every few days for the past 6 weeks and these Edmonton vs Calgary pricing discrepancies have been fairly consistent.

    I'd love to hear somebody from YEG (or Air Canada) comment on this. IMO it's outrageous especially when Edmonton London is actually a shorter travel distance than Calgary London.

    The Calgary-Europe market is more competitive: AC, BA and KLM compete. AC is the only competitor in town , so they can get away with the extra charge.

    Pricing in the airline industry does not depend on distance, but on yields. There's a very good chance that AC sells more business class tickets out of YYC, so they can offer cheaper economy fares.

    Some budget and most business travelers will pay the extra 150 a person for the convenience...I know that I would. In the grand scheme of things , an extra 150 a person is a small amount of money to save over 3 hours each direction in my opinion

  87. #87
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    31,481

    Default

    Were you to drive down to Calgary to catch a flight, you're likely going to pay $150 - $200 for gas and parking anyway.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  88. #88

    Default

    200 dollars savings per person in a family of 4 is 1000 bucks. Makes worth driving to Calgary for 200 bucks seem very reasonable.

  89. #89
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    2,712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Checked out Aer Lingus via Chicago to Dublin. They were slightly more than Edmonton London Dublin at today's prices for the dates we need to travel. Booking Edmonton London Dublin as separate flights is exactly the same price as combining them. And I refuse to add on the extra time and distance and make two stops by connecting via Vancouver and Amsterdam even though it is a bit cheaper.

    Since I raised the concern about whether Air Canada has a policy of routing Edmonton passengers through Calgary, here are a comparison of all-in prices from earlier today for the dates we plan to be away (we have limited flexibility re dates):
    Edmonton London Dublin - $1727/person
    Edmonton Calgary London Dublin - $1561/person
    Calgary London Dublin - $1474/person

    Airline pricing does fluctuate almost daily. But I've been checking every few days for the past 6 weeks and these Edmonton vs Calgary pricing discrepancies have been fairly consistent.

    I'd love to hear somebody from YEG (or Air Canada) comment on this. IMO it's outrageous especially when Edmonton London is actually a shorter travel distance than Calgary London.

    The Calgary-Europe market is more competitive: AC, BA and KLM compete. AC is the only competitor in town , so they can get away with the extra charge.

    Pricing in the airline industry does not depend on distance, but on yields. There's a very good chance that AC sells more business class tickets out of YYC, so they can offer cheaper economy fares.

    Some budget and most business travelers will pay the extra 150 a person for the convenience...I know that I would. In the grand scheme of things , an extra 150 a person is a small amount of money to save over 3 hours each direction in my opinion
    Not sure if you officially represent YEG, but if you do, this kind of justification is a big turn off to average joe or jane.

    I have no idea how many Edmontonians have relatives or close friends in Calgary but I'm willing to bet it's a pretty high percentage.

    So the conversation goes like this: "We can save over $500 if we drive to Calgary and even squeeze in a quick visit with Mom. We can leave our car at Mom's and one of my siblings will drive us to the airport and pick us up when we get back."

    And people wonder why Edmontonians don't break the Calgary habit? I'm trying to put my foot down and insist we fly Edmonton direct to Heathrow, but I'm like the 1% of the population that doesn't shop at Walmart either. Many people (probably most) see the cheaper price flying out of Calgary and that's what they go for.

  90. #90

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Checked out Aer Lingus via Chicago to Dublin. They were slightly more than Edmonton London Dublin at today's prices for the dates we need to travel. Booking Edmonton London Dublin as separate flights is exactly the same price as combining them. And I refuse to add on the extra time and distance and make two stops by connecting via Vancouver and Amsterdam even though it is a bit cheaper.

    Since I raised the concern about whether Air Canada has a policy of routing Edmonton passengers through Calgary, here are a comparison of all-in prices from earlier today for the dates we plan to be away (we have limited flexibility re dates):
    Edmonton London Dublin - $1727/person
    Edmonton Calgary London Dublin - $1561/person
    Calgary London Dublin - $1474/person

    Airline pricing does fluctuate almost daily. But I've been checking every few days for the past 6 weeks and these Edmonton vs Calgary pricing discrepancies have been fairly consistent.

    I'd love to hear somebody from YEG (or Air Canada) comment on this. IMO it's outrageous especially when Edmonton London is actually a shorter travel distance than Calgary London.

    The Calgary-Europe market is more competitive: AC, BA and KLM compete. AC is the only competitor in town , so they can get away with the extra charge.

    Pricing in the airline industry does not depend on distance, but on yields. There's a very good chance that AC sells more business class tickets out of YYC, so they can offer cheaper economy fares.

    Some budget and most business travelers will pay the extra 150 a person for the convenience...I know that I would. In the grand scheme of things , an extra 150 a person is a small amount of money to save over 3 hours each direction in my opinion
    Not sure if you officially represent YEG, but if you do, this kind of justification is a big turn off to average joe or jane.

    I have no idea how many Edmontonians have relatives or close friends in Calgary but I'm willing to bet it's a pretty high percentage.

    So the conversation goes like this: "We can save over $500 if we drive to Calgary and even squeeze in a quick visit with Mom. We can leave our car at Mom's and one of my siblings will drive us to the airport and pick us up when we get back."

    And people wonder why Edmontonians don't break the Calgary habit? I'm trying to put my foot down and insist we fly Edmonton direct to Heathrow, but I'm like the 1% of the population that doesn't shop at Walmart either. Many people (probably most) see the cheaper price flying out of Calgary and that's what they go for.

    I definitely would want to save the money....and it's even better when I can overnight at "mom's" in Calgary if I could. And I do not represent the Airports Authority.

    All I am saying is that cheaper means (in many cases) less convenient. And if the stop in Calgary is convenient to your travel schedule, by all means, go for it. Please don't get me wrong.

    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.

  91. #91
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Beaumont, ab
    Posts
    836

    Default

    You people crack me up. Just pay the premium. Is $150.00 or whatever it is worth while to fly to Calgary - deplane and than board again. My rule of thumb - if you can't afford it or are too cheap - DON'T FLY!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Checked out Aer Lingus via Chicago to Dublin. They were slightly more than Edmonton London Dublin at today's prices for the dates we need to travel. Booking Edmonton London Dublin as separate flights is exactly the same price as combining them. And I refuse to add on the extra time and distance and make two stops by connecting via Vancouver and Amsterdam even though it is a bit cheaper.

    Since I raised the concern about whether Air Canada has a policy of routing Edmonton passengers through Calgary, here are a comparison of all-in prices from earlier today for the dates we plan to be away (we have limited flexibility re dates):
    Edmonton London Dublin - $1727/person
    Edmonton Calgary London Dublin - $1561/person
    Calgary London Dublin - $1474/person

    Airline pricing does fluctuate almost daily. But I've been checking every few days for the past 6 weeks and these Edmonton vs Calgary pricing discrepancies have been fairly consistent.

    I'd love to hear somebody from YEG (or Air Canada) comment on this. IMO it's outrageous especially when Edmonton London is actually a shorter travel distance than Calgary London.

    The Calgary-Europe market is more competitive: AC, BA and KLM compete. AC is the only competitor in town , so they can get away with the extra charge.

    Pricing in the airline industry does not depend on distance, but on yields. There's a very good chance that AC sells more business class tickets out of YYC, so they can offer cheaper economy fares.

    Some budget and most business travelers will pay the extra 150 a person for the convenience...I know that I would. In the grand scheme of things , an extra 150 a person is a small amount of money to save over 3 hours each direction in my opinion
    Not sure if you officially represent YEG, but if you do, this kind of justification is a big turn off to average joe or jane.

    I have no idea how many Edmontonians have relatives or close friends in Calgary but I'm willing to bet it's a pretty high percentage.

    So the conversation goes like this: "We can save over $500 if we drive to Calgary and even squeeze in a quick visit with Mom. We can leave our car at Mom's and one of my siblings will drive us to the airport and pick us up when we get back."

    And people wonder why Edmontonians don't break the Calgary habit? I'm trying to put my foot down and insist we fly Edmonton direct to Heathrow, but I'm like the 1% of the population that doesn't shop at Walmart either. Many people (probably most) see the cheaper price flying out of Calgary and that's what they go for.

    I definitely would want to save the money....and it's even better when I can overnight at "mom's" in Calgary if I could. And I do not represent the Airports Authority.

    All I am saying is that cheaper means (in many cases) less convenient. And if the stop in Calgary is convenient to your travel schedule, by all means, go for it. Please don't get me wrong.

    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.

  92. #92
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.
    The "reasonableness" argument you put forth is not based on fact. For example: there is NO reason to believe that Edmontonian's are NOT subsidizing the airfare of Calgarians...is there? If we polled Northern Albertans and those in the Capital Region what they thought..."is it reasonable to have fares 30% more than Calgary for the same plane that flys less miles" do you think the poll results would come back as a YES? I doubt it - but then like you the poll would show the reasonableness of how people see the fare being applied.

    I would like to see ERAA work with the Capital Region, UofA School of Business, Economic Development stakeholders and regional Chambers of Commerce groups to commission a survey ands and analysis on costs of routes etc. to determine if citizens are getting "reasonable" airfares compared to our counterparts in all other areas of Canada, services etc. For example do we in Edmonton subsidize AC operations and routes in Toronto and Calgary etc. Seats in service, frequency, non-stipns, directs, etc. average flight cost etc. Also development of a route and service strategy.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 04-03-2012 at 09:47 AM.

  93. #93
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.
    The "reasonableness" argument you put forth is not based on fact. For example: there is NO reason to believe that Edmontonian's are NOT subsidizing the airfare of Calgarians...is there? If we polled Northern Albertans and those in the Capital Region what they thought..."is it reasonable to have fares 30% more than Calgary for the same plane that flys less miles" do you think the poll results would come back as a YES? I doubt it - but then like you the poll would show the reasonableness of how people see the fare being applied.

    I would like to see ERAA work with the Capital Region, UofA School of Business, Economic Development stakeholders and regional Chambers of Commerce groups to commission a survey ands and analysis on costs of routes etc. to determine if citizens are getting "reasonable" airfares compared to our counterparts in all other areas of Canada, services etc. For example do we in Edmonton subsidize AC operations and routes in Toronto and Calgary etc. Seats in service, frequency, non-stipns, directs, etc. average flight cost etc. Also development of a route and service strategy.
    Cost of route is only one factor the airline would consider in setting the price for a route. They would look at what competitors are doing to service that market, what type of passenger - business versus economy, the demand, how many seats the have sold, etc . As there is only the one plane servicing this route it s often full and therefore usually more expensive than Calgary that has a lot more competition and more seats and more business/first class travelers.

  94. #94
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Edmonton Downtown Core
    Posts
    4,887

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.
    The "reasonableness" argument you put forth is not based on fact. For example: there is NO reason to believe that Edmontonian's are NOT subsidizing the airfare of Calgarians...is there? If we polled Northern Albertans and those in the Capital Region what they thought..."is it reasonable to have fares 30% more than Calgary for the same plane that flys less miles" do you think the poll results would come back as a YES? I doubt it - but then like you the poll would show the reasonableness of how people see the fare being applied.

    I would like to see ERAA work with the Capital Region, UofA School of Business, Economic Development stakeholders and regional Chambers of Commerce groups to commission a survey ands and analysis on costs of routes etc. to determine if citizens are getting "reasonable" airfares compared to our counterparts in all other areas of Canada, services etc. For example do we in Edmonton subsidize AC operations and routes in Toronto and Calgary etc. Seats in service, frequency, non-stipns, directs, etc. average flight cost etc. Also development of a route and service strategy.
    Cost of route is only one factor the airline would consider in setting the price for a route. They would look at what competitors are doing to service that market, what type of passenger - business versus economy, the demand, how many seats the have sold, etc . As there is only the one plane servicing this route it s often full and therefore usually more expensive than Calgary that has a lot more competition and more seats and more business/first class travelers.
    Obviously these may be some of the factors....but a conclusion on what is "reasonable" without a factual basis is not credible. There are industry benchmarks and ERAA is the one to lead an analysis with on this. We just spent $1+ billion dollars and the public will be expecting new routes, improvements to frequency and competitive air fares. Saying just drive to Calgary and stay at mamas is trite and not worthy of posting on this forum.

  95. #95
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    AC's Edmonton-Heathrow is the only direct non-stop flight to Europe. It is quite reasonable to expect AC to charge a small premium for that.
    The "reasonableness" argument you put forth is not based on fact. For example: there is NO reason to believe that Edmontonian's are NOT subsidizing the airfare of Calgarians...is there? If we polled Northern Albertans and those in the Capital Region what they thought..."is it reasonable to have fares 30% more than Calgary for the same plane that flys less miles" do you think the poll results would come back as a YES? I doubt it - but then like you the poll would show the reasonableness of how people see the fare being applied.

    I would like to see ERAA work with the Capital Region, UofA School of Business, Economic Development stakeholders and regional Chambers of Commerce groups to commission a survey ands and analysis on costs of routes etc. to determine if citizens are getting "reasonable" airfares compared to our counterparts in all other areas of Canada, services etc. For example do we in Edmonton subsidize AC operations and routes in Toronto and Calgary etc. Seats in service, frequency, non-stipns, directs, etc. average flight cost etc. Also development of a route and service strategy.
    Cost of route is only one factor the airline would consider in setting the price for a route. They would look at what competitors are doing to service that market, what type of passenger - business versus economy, the demand, how many seats the have sold, etc . As there is only the one plane servicing this route it s often full and therefore usually more expensive than Calgary that has a lot more competition and more seats and more business/first class travelers.


    Obviously these may be some of the factors....but a conclusion on what is "reasonable" without a factual basis is not credible. There are industry benchmarks and ERAA is the one to lead an analysis with on this. We just spent $1+ billion dollars and the public will be expecting new routes, improvements to frequency and competitive air fares. Saying just drive to Calgary and stay at mamas is trite and not worthy of posting on this forum.
    It is free market. The airlines can decide what to do and what to charge, at the end of the day no amount of analysis by ERAA will get new routes, decision is the airlines.

    I have never said to drive to Calgary, I think that is just plain stupid. Connect through Calgary, why not if it makes sense for the consumer. ERAA is always promoting connecting elsewhere so what is wrong with connecting in Calgary?

  96. #96
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    231

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    I have never said to drive to Calgary, I think that is just plain stupid. Connect through Calgary, why not if it makes sense for the consumer. ERAA is always promoting connecting elsewhere so what is wrong with connecting in Calgary?
    Depends. If you always want to connect, if your only desire is high frequency to airline hubs, plus some direct leisure flights (whether WestJet or charter), then I suppose any connection will do. You might save a few minutes flying more directly to your destination using a connection further away...but all in all Calgary isn't a bad place to connect. For the once-a-year flier, it's hard to argue.

    If your desire is to have direct flights of your own, though, then the very last place you want to connect is the airport that competes with you for passengers. If you need 200 people to fly to Europe direct, and 50 of them come from Edmonton, then the last thing you want is those 50 to go elsewhere. If you need 600 people to have three daily flights to London, and you need 150 from Edmonton.... If those 150 don't connect in Calgary, then many of those passengers are lost to the national carrier - they'll connect using another airline(s). Now you have some encouragement to put a direct flight into Edmonton, instead of continuing to load Calgary flights. Partly because the Calgary flights become less economical (which frees up an airplane - very important re: AC because they have all their long-haul planes well utilized), partly because Edmontonians demonstrated with $$$ that connecting through Calgary isn't good enough any more.

    As Edmonton gets more direct flights, the airlines have to start filling those seats. Some increased local and regional connections may occur to assist with that. Low-end economy fares will decrease to help fill a few extra seats. Any of this sound familiar? And then there's the improved business and tourism impression of having more direct flights. You won't believe how many people in Toronto say it's "hard" to fly to Edmonton.

    Some things may not make sense for the typical traveller. Connecting in the U.S. to fly to Europe means clearing U.S. Customs. For me, I don't give it a second thought. For others...maybe you connect in Canada instead. For people who do not like the long distance walk in Vancouver and who don't want to ask for assistance, maybe you choose Calgary. On the other hand, if you don't like the long waits for US Customs in Calgary, maybe you choose Vancouver.

    But an "Anything but Calgary" approach demonstrates your desire to support airlines that choose Edmonton with flights that go more than 300km. That applies just as much to WestJet as it does to Air Canada Express...although we know WestJet supports more direct flights to Edmonton than Air Canada does.

    (BTW: I'm not convinced driving to Calgary is "stupid". You save an hour (+-) outbound, probably don't save anything flying home. You save two airport connection experiences. Driving QE2 isn't for everyone, but if you're looking to save money by not flying direct, and you can save even more by driving...?)

  97. #97

    Default

    ^ excellent point.

    Connecting in Calgary hurts Edmonton much more than connecting in Vancouver, Toronto or a US hub when a direct service is available.

  98. #98
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    231

    Default

    ^ FWIW - Vancouver has the same problem w/ Calgary. Every passenger that connects in Calgary could be the difference in added service to Vancouver, especially because Calgary is conveniently located between Vancouver and just about every other city on the continent. Less noticeable since YVR has 50% more passengers and lots of direct service. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't want more, e.g. YVR-ORD, YVR-YUL, YVR-JFK that isn't scheduled for 1:00 AM, more Delta service, lots more WestJet service that isn't going to Hawaii.

  99. #99
    Partially Addicted to C2E
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JustYeggin View Post
    ^ excellent point.

    Connecting in Calgary hurts Edmonton much more than connecting in Vancouver, Toronto or a US hub when a direct service is available.
    Please explain, as this makes no rational sense.

    The airline knows exactly where the passenger is from as that is required info in order to ticket. They will know who connects and who drives to YYC, and from this could figure out if it makes sense to add service from YEG. Even though there may be enough passengers out of YEG for other reasons it may make sense for more service from YYC (or another airport) and have YEG passengers connect. Air Canada and WestJet are businesses making businesses decisions for their shareholders.

  100. #100
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sherwood park
    Posts
    2,573

    Default

    I don't believe that Air Canada makes decisions for their shareholders. I have no idea who they make their decisions for but they have proven time and again that they are not capable of making business decisions for anyone.

Page 1 of 39 1234511 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •