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Thread: Air Service Development, Routes, and carrier conversations

  1. #4101
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    Let’s just keep supporting the likes of Flair. If we keep having service cut it makes loyalty to an airline like WestJet less common. I am considering ditching my WestJet MasterCard. I understand business decisions by airlines to a point but we Edmontonians need to speak with our wallets and make decisions that are best for our region. How we get that to become commonplace amongst the general flying public has always been the difficult question.

  2. #4102

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The amount of malicious intent people heap onto what amounts to a pure business-case driven decision is always hilarious. People feel entitled to a level of service that YEG can't support & when their expectations fall flat it's always some moustache-twirling evil scheme designed to screw over Edmonton behind it.

    I guess today is the day to see boogeymen everywhere...

    Not true at all. YEG continues to be a victim of hubbing in YYC in particular. In the 90's we had much better service to Europe: AC and CP to LHR, LOT to WAW, MartinAir to AMS, Air Transat to LGW, BER and FRA.

    Management at EIA continues to be focusing on real estate development. The number of flights we continues to lose is alarming.

  3. #4103

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    The hub is YYC is there because the airline is headquartered there and there are more business travellers in and out of Calgary than Edmonton. It's not some malicious plot to do bad by Edmonton. It's a consequence of the hub and spoke model that the airlines use. Some cities are hubs. Some, including YEG, are spokes.

    And it's not as if we've never had direct connections to the cities that we desire. We just can't sustain them for the most part. NYC for one example. But if YYC can do 70% and Edmonton adds 30% (or 60-40 or some other ratio), it's sustainable.

    For the most part, you either need a steady stream of business travellers or a LOT of tourist traffic. Edmonton is a city of a million people situated away from the vast majority of the air traffic. Very few routes stop here on the way to somewhere else.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 01-11-2019 at 07:35 PM.

  4. #4104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Base View Post
    Let’s just keep supporting the likes of Flair. If we keep having service cut it makes loyalty to an airline like WestJet less common. I am considering ditching my WestJet MasterCard. I understand business decisions by airlines to a point but we Edmontonians need to speak with our wallets and make decisions that are best for our region. How we get that to become commonplace amongst the general flying public has always been the difficult question.
    Why support Flair? In one year YEG has gone from their largest base to their 4th largest base. They now have more flights out of Calgary than Edmonton.

  5. #4105

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    “I don’t understand why the YEG management continues to try and diversify and increase profitability instead of pandering to and/or paying an airline to give us an unsustainable route to somewhere!”
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  6. #4106

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The hub is TTC is there because the airline is headquartered there and there are more business travellers in and out of Calgary than Edmonton. It's not some malicious plot to do bad by Edmonton. It's a consequence of the hub and spoke model that the airlines use. Some cities are hubs. Some, including YEG, are spokes.

    And it's not as if we've never had direct connections to the cities that we desire. We just can't sustain them for the most part. NYC for one example. But if YYC can do 70% and Edmonton adds 30% (or 60-40 or some other ratio), it's sustainable.

    For the most part, you either need a steady stream of business travellers or a LOT of tourist traffic. Edmonton is a city of a million people situated away from the vast majority of the air traffic. Very few routes stop here on the way to somewhere else.
    Geography explains part of it, for instance going to NYC. Its not surprising that is not non stop. However, if you draw a line on a map from Edmonton to New York it does not go to Calgary. When I traveled there, I stopped in a US city more en route, not Calgary.

    However, the strange lack of flights to Europe is not explained but totally contradicted by geography. Someone from Edmonton is expected to fly down to Calgary, get on a plane and then fly back over Edmonton. So why couldn't the 70% of the passengers get on in Calgary, then stop in Edmonton get the additional 30% and then fly to Europe? This doesn't apply to just London, but most other European destinations also.

  7. #4107

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    Maybe that 30% isn't worth the gate fees and infrastructure costs.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  8. #4108

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    “I don’t understand why the YEG management continues to try and diversify and increase profitability instead of pandering to and/or paying an airline to give us an unsustainable route to somewhere!”
    Perhaps because somebody has told them (or they have assumed) their mandate is to try make more money rather than focusing on serving the community better.

  9. #4109

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    Making money isn't as nebulous as "serving the vommunity better" so I can't blame them.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  10. #4110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Perhaps because somebody has told them (or they have assumed) their mandate is to try make more money rather than focusing on serving the community better.
    It's in their mandate, as they're expected to be financially independent.

    The Edmonton Regional Airports Authority is a community-based, financially independent, non-share corporation responsible for operating and developing two airports in the best interests of the Edmonton region: Edmonton International Airport and Villeneuve Airport.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...authority.aspx
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  11. #4111

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Perhaps because somebody has told them (or they have assumed) their mandate is to try make more money rather than focusing on serving the community better.
    It's in their mandate, as they're expected to be financially independent.

    The Edmonton Regional Airports Authority is a community-based, financially independent, non-share corporation responsible for operating and developing two airports in the best interests of the Edmonton region: Edmonton International Airport and Villeneuve Airport.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...authority.aspx
    Being financially independent is not the same thing as focusing on making money, rather than serving the community.

  12. #4112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Being financially independent is not the same thing as focusing on making money, rather than serving the community.
    You need profits to be financially independent. 2018 was a banner year for the Airport, yet their net revenue was less than $2M. 2017 was a $3.3M loss.

    (Also, throwing money away trying to land unsustainable routes isn't really serving the community either.)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  13. #4113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    So why couldn't the 70% of the passengers get on in Calgary, then stop in Edmonton get the additional 30% and then fly to Europe?
    Because the cachet of "non-stop service" from Calgary is more important/lucrative than trying to pander to Edmonton.

    (Hilarious that people who refuse to transfer in Calgary wonder why the inverse wouldn't also be true.)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  14. #4114
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    So why couldn't the 70% of the passengers get on in Calgary, then stop in Edmonton get the additional 30% and then fly to Europe?
    Because the cachet of "non-stop service" from Calgary is more important/lucrative than trying to pander to Edmonton.

    (Hilarious that people who refuse to transfer in Calgary wonder why the inverse wouldn't also be true.)
    Dave, it is up to the airline to make that pit stop - which they could do if they wanted to. Many airlines around the world do just that but WS chooses not to. Their answer is to fly you south from YEG to YYC and then overfly YEG and then overfly Edmonton on the return ... and have you clear Customs at YYC and rebound to go to YEG. They might tell you to just drive down - wtf. Anyone thinking WS gives a damn about Metro Edmonton is delusional or a shill for WS.

  15. #4115
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Perhaps because somebody has told them (or they have assumed) their mandate is to try make more money rather than focusing on serving the community better.
    It's in their mandate, as they're expected to be financially independent.

    The Edmonton Regional Airports Authority is a community-based, financially independent, non-share corporation responsible for operating and developing two airports in the best interests of the Edmonton region: Edmonton International Airport and Villeneuve Airport.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...authority.aspx

    At least there is one large airport authority that is trying to be financially independent in Alberta!

  16. #4116

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    So why couldn't the 70% of the passengers get on in Calgary, then stop in Edmonton get the additional 30% and then fly to Europe?
    Because the cachet of "non-stop service" from Calgary is more important/lucrative than trying to pander to Edmonton.

    (Hilarious that people who refuse to transfer in Calgary wonder why the inverse wouldn't also be true.)
    Dave, it is up to the airline to make that pit stop - which they could do if they wanted to. Many airlines around the world do just that but WS chooses not to. Their answer is to fly you south from YEG to YYC and then overfly YEG and then overfly Edmonton on the return ... and have you clear Customs at YYC and rebound to go to YEG. They might tell you to just drive down - wtf. Anyone thinking WS gives a damn about Metro Edmonton is delusional or a shill for WS.
    Part of the problem (and there are a number the delusional shills ignore) is WestJet wants to provide superior service to where its head office is located and Air Canada has to compete against that. Ironically, we might get better service if WestJet was based out of Toronto and was EastJet instead. It would eliminate one of the biases. Of course, a duopoly is not a "free" market and that is part of the problem too.

  17. #4117
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    "Air Transat revealed details of its summer plans Friday, detailing major cuts to service from Western Canada and a greater concentration on flights from Eastern Canada.

    While Vancouver will continue to see flights to Amsterdam, London, and Manchester, previous non-stop flights to Paris disappear in 2020, replaced by connections in Toronto and Montreal. Calgary will lose all its non-stop Transat service to Europe in 2020.

    The airline will offer 150 flights a week to 27 cities in Europe, the vast majority operating from Toronto and Montreal. Travellers in Vancouver and Calgary will be able to board Transat domestic flights to connect to European destinations. A similar service that was offered from Edmonton in 2019 disappears in 2020."

    https://westernaviationnews.com/2019...estern-canada/

  18. #4118
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    So why couldn't the 70% of the passengers get on in Calgary, then stop in Edmonton get the additional 30% and then fly to Europe?
    Because the cachet of "non-stop service" from Calgary is more important/lucrative than trying to pander to Edmonton.

    (Hilarious that people who refuse to transfer in Calgary wonder why the inverse wouldn't also be true.)
    Dave, it is up to the airline to make that pit stop - which they could do if they wanted to. Many airlines around the world do just that but WS chooses not to. Their answer is to fly you south from YEG to YYC and then overfly YEG and then overfly Edmonton on the return ... and have you clear Customs at YYC and rebound to go to YEG. They might tell you to just drive down - wtf. Anyone thinking WS gives a damn about Metro Edmonton is delusional or a shill for WS.
    Maybe if WS choose this approach for their European and future Asian routes it would provide some stability to their hopes of expanding internationally. Won’t happen of course.

  19. #4119

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    More cuts from WS. Phoenix is down to one daily. For all the WS fanatics...

  20. #4120
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyYeg View Post
    More cuts from WS. Phoenix is down to one daily. For all the WS fanatics...
    Calm down, it's a small cut for the month of January. Back to it's regular schedule in February.

  21. #4121
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    Are the airlines looking at purchasing new aircraft if the Boeing 737 Max 8 issue isn’t resolved?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  22. #4122
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    Finally see that Rouge is flying to Vegas....

  23. #4123
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Are the airlines looking at purchasing new aircraft if the Boeing 737 Max 8 issue isn’t resolved?
    There's nothing else to purchase. Airbus is the only alternative, and they have a years long backlog, just like Boeing. There's no fundamental reason why they won't be able to resolve the issues with the flight controls, it's just a matter of doing enough testing to be confident that the issue is fixed and that they didn't create any other problems while they were at it. And of course making the flying public comfortable with it.

    Once it's back in the air, it'll probably be the safest aircraft around because of all the scrutiny. The bigger concern is reforming the certification/regulatory process, which appears to have been captured by the industry. The whole thing never should have happened in the first place.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 10-11-2019 at 04:02 PM.

  24. #4124

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    Despite the weather yesterday morning (Sunday, November 10th) and the need to de-ice, AS2535 got to Seattle with plenty of time for us to make the PSP connection on AS381. I can't understand why anyone with any common sense would fly via YYC at any time.

  25. #4125
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Despite the weather yesterday morning (Sunday, November 10th) and the need to de-ice, AS2535 got to Seattle with plenty of time for us to make the PSP connection on AS381. I can't understand why anyone with any common sense would fly via YYC at any time.
    Why wouldn't you just take the nonstop?

  26. #4126

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    I used my MBNA Alaska Airlines Credit Card that gives me an annual second ticket for $99 plus tax and 1 mile for every CDN$! I use it as my operating card.

    A typical points round trip via SEA to PSP, ONT and/or LAX on Alaska is 15,000 to 25,000 miles and only USD$63 in extra fees.

    Besides WestJet prices have become stupid to PSP but I do use them from time to time.

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