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Thread: LED Street Lighting - not yet

  1. #1

    Default LED Street Lighting - not yet

    I hope the City waits. Break even isn't good enough when you know that LED's are almost guaranteed to get much better and much cheaper. Why get stuck with a bunch of sub-par long life assets that cost 'full' price.

    According to this news release:

    Cree introduces brighter street lights
    The new LEDs add to a compelling case for long-term efficiency.

    "The XSP Series LED street lights use nearly 50% less energy and are designed to last more than three times longer than high-pressure sodium street lighting. More importantly, when bought in volume, the new lights will cost around $200 per light, which, when maintenance and energy costs are included, will be on par with the high-pressure sodium street lights."...

    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...9-cfc3a83e3c46

  2. #2

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    There's always going to be something new and better down the road. And there will be always be something new and better down the road from that.

    Can't wait forever.

  3. #3

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by atrus View Post
    There's always going to be something new and better down the road. And there will be always be something new and better down the road from that.

    Can't wait forever.
    I understand that. However the last 20 years have revealed a desperate need for the City to take a more intelligent approach to capital expenditures on infrastructure. Corporate promises of savings from technological changes rarely match the final reality, so I'd sure guess that waiting on rapidly evolving technologies can only improve our leverage.

    Convert everything over in your neighbourhood now and you may be stuck with it for a decade or two.
    Last edited by KC; 12-04-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #5

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    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...onversion.aspx
    That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...

    We are still years away from having the curbs and sidewalks done in Oliver...

    I could just SPIT!

    Side note.. the bubble houses made it into the renewal project report
    http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...tingBudget.pdf
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 12-04-2012 at 01:44 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...
    That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I hope the City waits. Break even isn't good enough when you know that LED's are almost guaranteed to get much better and much cheaper. Why get stuck with a bunch of sub-par long life assets that cost 'full' price.

    According to this news release:

    Cree introduces brighter street lights
    The new LEDs add to a compelling case for long-term efficiency.

    "The XSP Series LED street lights use nearly 50% less energy and are designed to last more than three times longer than high-pressure sodium street lighting. More importantly, when bought in volume, the new lights will cost around $200 per light, which, when maintenance and energy costs are included, will be on par with the high-pressure sodium street lights."...

    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...9-cfc3a83e3c46
    Cost will undoubtedly fall, but how do you know the current LED streetlights being installed by the CoE are worse—I presume you mean quality—than what has been announced, how do you know this?
    I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by atrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...
    That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.
    And why wouldn't you test some of Edmonton's most dense neighborhoods?! neighborhoods that are walkable, where people actually need better lighting and want it?!

    Where the cost of the pilot project would be the cheapest per capita?
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Maybe it has to do with this, from the link Medwards provided:

    Neighbourhood LED Retrofit Program

    This program selects neighbourhoods that are in the middle of their life span. The retrofit program targets neighborhoods with poor pole conditions and old luminaires. Both the pole and luminaires will be replaced in these areas. This will include the conversion of alley lighting. The existing base and cable will remain until the neighbourhood is eventually selected in the future for full reconstruction.
    More reading, less complaining?

  10. #10

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    Riverdale's alley lighting conversion to LED isn't complete yet; I forget why, but it's not a case of being a taxpayer-paid upgrade, like getting an alley paved.
    I think of art, at its most significant, as a Distant Early Warning system that can always be relied on to tell the old culture what is beginning to happen to it. —Marshall McLuhan

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I hope the City waits. Break even isn't good enough when you know that LED's are almost guaranteed to get much better and much cheaper. Why get stuck with a bunch of sub-par long life assets that cost 'full' price.

    According to this news release:

    Cree introduces brighter street lights
    The new LEDs add to a compelling case for long-term efficiency.

    "The XSP Series LED street lights use nearly 50% less energy and are designed to last more than three times longer than high-pressure sodium street lighting. More importantly, when bought in volume, the new lights will cost around $200 per light, which, when maintenance and energy costs are included, will be on par with the high-pressure sodium street lights."...

    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...9-cfc3a83e3c46
    Cost will undoubtedly fall, but how do you know the current LED streetlights being installed by the CoE are worse—I presume you mean quality—than what has been announced, how do you know this?

    I'm making the huge assumption that LEDs might evolve like computers, etc.

    Note: I've owned shares in Cree on and off for about 10 or so years. Their lighting has changed.
    Last edited by KC; 14-04-2012 at 08:50 AM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...
    That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.
    And why wouldn't you test some of Edmonton's most dense neighborhoods?! neighborhoods that are walkable, where people actually need better lighting and want it?!

    Where the cost of the pilot project would be the cheapest per capita?
    God you whine a lot... I know you have never left central Edmonton, but people walk in all neighbourhoods, not just dense central neighbourhoods...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    I'm making the huge assumption that LEDs might evolve like computers, etc.

    Note: I've owned shares in Cree on and off for about 10 or so years. Their lighting has changed.
    While there certainly is more room for improvement, Moore's law will not apply to LEDs. Production LEDs now achieve over 100 lumens per watt, and the current record is over 250 lm/W. The theoretical maximum efficacy for any light source is 683 lm/W, and that would have to be monochromatic greenish yellow. For white light with a modest color rendering index, the limit is about 400 lm/W, or about 300 lm/W for a high CRI. Future production models are unlikely to be more than twice as efficient as current models, and I would not be surprised if we don't see those until the current models are nearing the end of their life and need replaced anyways.

    Pricing is likely to come down, but with current models having achieved breakeven on life cycle costs, it is perfectly reasonable to do exactly what the city is doing now - use LEDs to replace streetlights that need replacing anyways. Sometime in the near future a combination of modestly improved LED efficiencies, lower LED prices and higher electricity prices will make converting the whole city cost-effective, and it will be good to have some experience with different brands and different vendors at that time.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    I'm making the huge assumption that LEDs might evolve like computers, etc.

    Note: I've owned shares in Cree on and off for about 10 or so years. Their lighting has changed.
    While there certainly is more room for improvement, Moore's law will not apply to LEDs. Production LEDs now achieve over 100 lumens per watt, and the current record is over 250 lm/W. The theoretical maximum efficacy for any light source is 683 lm/W, and that would have to be monochromatic greenish yellow. For white light with a modest color rendering index, the limit is about 400 lm/W, or about 300 lm/W for a high CRI. Future production models are unlikely to be more than twice as efficient as current models, and I would not be surprised if we don't see those until the current models are nearing the end of their life and need replaced anyways.

    Pricing is likely to come down, but with current models having achieved breakeven on life cycle costs, it is perfectly reasonable to do exactly what the city is doing now - use LEDs to replace streetlights that need replacing anyways. Sometime in the near future a combination of modestly improved LED efficiencies, lower LED prices and higher electricity prices will make converting the whole city cost-effective, and it will be good to have some experience with different brands and different vendors at that time.
    Great post. Yes all things being equal, replace with LED. However going forward competition will improve LEDs in other ways. Right now they are just meeting and copying the standard but now that new minds are on the task, expect many new innovations to be introduced.

    i.e. off the top of my mind I could see people inventing all kinds of things for street lights. Say increasing/decreasing illumination levels according to ambient light for further efficiency, hybrid solar-grid lights, fog / snow storm specific lighting, high traffic illumination, pedestrian focused illumination and other directional enhancements, WiFi/APP triggered lighting, emergency situation flashing colours...

    The future could be very bright
    Last edited by KC; 15-04-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  15. #15

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    Just read about a new high efficiency solar breakthrough. Maybe some new areas could eventually completly avoid the cost of wiring them in and instead just use solar/battery operated streetlights.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Just read about a new high efficiency solar breakthrough. Maybe some new areas could eventually completly avoid the cost of wiring them in and instead just use solar/battery operated streetlights.
    link?

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    Solar cells are at best around 40% efficient today, but advances are being made all the time especially with organic polymers. As they are becoming thinner and more transparent and you can stack more levels increasing the power output per area.

  18. #18

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    Here's the link. Again - the point is - why rush a total conversion when improvements are coming fast and the lifecycle is so long that you may be stuck living that long time with a substandard early generation light/fixture.

    Counterintuitive "LED-type" solar cell breaks efficiency record
    http://www.sciencenewsdaily.org/ener...ster147117480/

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    The problem with solar streetlights is then you need battery, which adds to the cost and are very inefficient during the cold winter months.

  20. #20

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    what does everyone think of the new LED lights they put up around west edmonton mall i for one like them as there not as bright would be nice if we would change the whole city to it maybe i wouldnt have to really go all the way out of the city to take a good night photo anymore

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    The problem with solar streetlights is then you need battery, which adds to the cost and are very inefficient during the cold winter months.
    Yeah, I've got one (solar/battery/LED) in my backyard and it is rather useless. That doesn't mean they will still be crap in 10 years time.

    I'd still like to see "task lighting" adopted for our streets and LEDs will create new possibilities (just look at how digital cameras are moving beyond the traditional capabilities of old film cameras. eg. the Lytro.).

  22. #22

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    I've seen some of the new LED lights down in Yellowbird over the past couple months. I do admit that they increase the amount of light on the street, and likely save the city a lot of money on electricity usage.

    It's just nostalgia and not rooted in logic, but I will miss the calm orange glow of a high pressure sodium lamp when white LEDs eventually take over

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by atrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    That list just Annoys me... No Queen Mary Park.. No Oliver...
    That is still a pilot project, so of course they're not doing the whole city. They're testing a few different models to see how it goes.
    And why wouldn't you test some of Edmonton's most dense neighborhoods?! neighborhoods that are walkable, where people actually need better lighting and want it?!

    Where the cost of the pilot project would be the cheapest per capita?
    God you whine a lot... I know you have never left central Edmonton, but people walk in all neighbourhoods, not just dense central neighbourhoods...
    Ansd you can thank me for raising these Oliver issues with the city...
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Quote Originally Posted by cantilever View Post
    It's just nostalgia and not rooted in logic, but I will miss the calm orange glow of a high pressure sodium lamp when white LEDs eventually take over
    My nostalgia tends to either incandescent or mercury vapor. I remember seeing a lone incandescent light on 76th Avenue south of Bonnie Doon about 10 years ago, perhaps it was the last one left on Edmonton streets. So the whiter slightly bluer light is more what I grew up with.

  25. #25

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    I was just reading something that makes me think that the lifespan ratings on LEDs are too low and that they might last much longer than currently accepted/promoted. If that is true that will be great news. However, I also just read the following comment by a poster on another site. It's very interesting. Maybe they need to think about initially replacing only some lights where the impact will be minimal and hoping that technical solutions will follow for the high visibility locations.


    http://seekingalpha.com/article/5478...s-another-look
    excerpt (I've added para. breaks to improve readability):
    roblitesComments (46)

    "LED’s Brightness Headache."

    "Having been in the lighting industry for 40 years, I remember in the 70's that the brighter than incandescent, more efficient high pressure sodium lamps, those orange lights you see from a plane, were installed into street lights everywhere, synergised by the oil embargos and ghastly high oil prices and contrary to their being brighter bulbs supplying more light, pedestrian deaths reportedly started to increase remarkably.

    The problem uncovered was that the new HPS lamp brightness placed in an incandescent fixture not designed for such was affecting drivers’ peripheral, "scotopic" vision, which we depend on when we are driving at night. It helps us perceived such things as a pedestrian walking out onto the road from between two parked cars. This safety issue was mitigated over time by designed reflectors being installed into the street lights which deaden some of the brightness with cut-offs to more safe levels. It is in a gentle balance of not too much cutoff to suppress brightness because that causes lower fixture efficiency and light output. Goldie Locks balanced fixture design.

    In my opinion,that balancing act can't happen with the LED, which is extremely bright, (high foot lamberts). Have you looked into your LED flash light lately? And Cree, the leading technologist, just announced they are exacerbating the brightness factor by starting to manufacture LEDs that produce approximately twice the brightness.. Their reason is you use less of the LEDs, which are expensive, in a fixture and therefore, the fixture is cheaper. They are particularly “bully” about the street light fixture utilizing these higher brightness LED’s they will be marketing per a recent press release.

    LEDs brightness can't be harnessed by meaningful sized reflectors. Each can be aimed but there will always be the brightness problem from any angle from which you view light output. A designer can stuff the LED “bread board” way up inside a street light head but then there goes the output and spread.

    This problem has been recognized by a Carnegie Mellon, Remaking Cities Institute, report for the city of Pittsburgh. In the text, their report is very critical of the LED for street lighting due to brightness and points out that some involved in consideration are not using correct instrumentation to evaluate the brightness issue. They also point out that typical municipal evaluations are not fairly designed. Do not be fooled by the upfront “executive brief” which seems to recommend the LED street lights for the city. It assumes the city will find a way to solve all the brightness problems they perceive in the guts of the report and initiate,for all other US municipalities with similar curiosities,ways of finding solutions. The report is incredibly complete and thorough in its research.

    Unfortunately the “unenlightened” equate good lighting to brightness without understanding its danger in street lighting and in this situation observers, the report points out, witness typical trial installations in static mockups with odd color comparisons, that orange colored lamp. The report link is below and it is worth a look.
    http://bit.ly/I2ZSaa
    Also, put “bright LED street lights” in a search engine and look at all the local paper articles high lighting citizens complaining about brightness from new neighborhood LED installations. Next, go to the high end coffee shop and look into their parking lot LED fixture. You'll get retinal retention, like a flash bulb went off...even at dusk. .
    I see the street light and tunnel brightness problem gaining wider attention which will affect these LED applications, an extremely important market to those involved. I’m only waiting until the first Tort Law office sees something like the Pittsburgh report. They’ll all be out looking for a pedestrians injured by car accidents in those communities that have installed LED street lights and will attack everyone involved; mfrs, consulting engineers, and the communities.
    I don’t own anything vaguely related to LED’s and should be retired from 40 years in the business. I stayed because I was afraid of the dark as a child.
    ECR, LLC"
    Last edited by KC; 08-06-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  26. #26

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    http://www.technologyreview.com/view...ng-sweet-spot/


    "An important advantage LED-based lamps have over incumbent technologies is that LED light sources—the semiconductors that emit light—are on a faster price-performance curve. That means each new generation puts out more light per watt, while the costs continue to go down. In the case of the latest CR6, Cree was able to reduce the number of LEDs from over 30 to six and still get more light output than the previous version. Designers also wrung out costs by cutting out electrical components and using a new lens to diffuse light."

  27. #27

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    Another interesting article...

    LEDs And OLEDs Light Up Markets
    Dr. Nisa Khan, Seeking Alpha, Nov 1, 2013

    "Although commercial LEDs are now more efficient than incandescent and even fluorescent lamps, the overall system efficacy and light properties of LED replacement lamps are still inferior. This is largely because LED or OLED-based lighting includes glare and lacks ability to generate omnidirectional light radiation. While inorganic LEDs produce much higher glare than their OLED counterparts, OLED-based lamps are still not as comfortable as incandescent lamps. The glare issue is still not fully recognized or understood by the LED industry. I have long been fascinated by light characteristics from various perspectives including science, art and human psychology and in recent years worked on bridging the gap between the LED and traditional lighting industries. I have discovered ..."

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/1799...ght-up-markets

  28. #28

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    And another. EPRI is very reputable.


    The future of streetlights
    13 August, 2013

    Excerpts:

    "New findings from the Electric Power Research Institute suggest that the installation of LED lights in streets have a number of positive externalities. These benefits, however, vary considerably in different locations."

    "Energy savings at EPRI’s sites ranged from 20 to 70 per cent after replacing the traditional bulbs with LEDs, which typically last over five times longer and require less energy to achieve desired lighting. However, in their executive summary of the demonstration, the EPRI researchers cite known disadvantages of LED technology, including... For example, temperature had an impact on all of the bulb’s components and affected energy consumption."...

    " “The one thing that is for sure is that [LED] technology is rapidly evolving. There are tremendous, tremendous improvements being made quite often,” says Geist. His colleague from the lab, Sharp, concurs. “When Tom and I started this project, LED fixtures were approximately $1,000 a piece,” says Sharp. “I saw earlier today that there’s a $100 LED street light that’s being released in about two weeks.” Not only are new LED street lights becoming cheaper up front, the amount of energy they require to produce the same light is decreasing with every round of new models, Sharp says."
    http://www.corporateknights.com/arti...e-streetlights
    Last edited by KC; 01-11-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Prison Yard Lighting ?

    We saw these in Lynnwood the other night. I think the white glare is awful. I agree with many of the comments in this article from Seattle :

    http://crosscut.com/2013/03/18/energ...s-seattle-led/

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarsands View Post
    We saw these in Lynnwood the other night. I think the white glare is awful. I agree with many of the comments in this article from Seattle :

    http://crosscut.com/2013/03/18/energ...s-seattle-led/
    Yes interesting article. The thing is, the technology is improving fast so those who are among the first in the rush to convert may find that they wish they'd waited a year or two but are now stuck for a decade or two with lights that while efficient, and saving the city money, are substandard (the 'new' standard) for your neighbourhood. In other words, the city gains, you lose.


    New York's innovations... Multi-lens streetlights

    http://m.inhabitat.com/inhabitat/#!/...fc7b56705086ca






    Street Light of the Future Would Provide Wi-Fi, Cell Coverage and More

    V-pole for Vancouver pole...

    http://techland.time.com/2012/05/25/...rage-and-more/


    'Smart' streetlamps light up when you're near
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/18/tech/i...ps-roosegarde/
    Excerpts:

    "Shaw reckons the system will slash energy costs and CO2 emissions by 80%, and maintenance by another 50%, thanks to the integrated wireless sensor that allows lamps to alert a central control center when it's time to be serviced."

    "It could save the ambulance two minutes because the light could tell everyone it's coming, and they could move aside more quickly because we control the streets, we control the lamps," says Shah. "It could save a life."


    The Streetlight of the Future Will Do So Much More Than Light Your Street - Emily Badger - The Atlantic Cities
    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/tec...r-street/4958/


    .
    Last edited by KC; 03-11-2013 at 02:49 PM.

  31. #31

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    The stretch of 97 St just north of 137 Ave with the new LED's looks really good. Much better illumination of the street, far less bleed. The light is where you need it, and it's bright and crisp. Convert the entire city asap!
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The stretch of 97 St just north of 137 Ave with the new LED's looks really good. Much better illumination of the street, far less bleed. The light is where you need it, and it's bright and crisp. Convert the entire city asap!
    Then once done, that's all you gain, unless they can somehow justify the cost of replacing still useful and long lasting lights.

    Try to envision the possibilities of going well beyond the limited options we have today.
    Last edited by KC; 03-11-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    Then once done, that's all you gain, unless they can somehow justify the cost of replacing still useful and long lasting lights.
    Clean unglary lighting justifies itself. The lower energy costs justify themselves.

    Penny-wise, KC. You are so very infinitely penny-wise.

  34. #34

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    I wouldn't mind a couple of these in my back alley to prevent the light pollution I get. The white light is clean, crisp, better for seeing most objects, saves money, and doesn't light up the whole city once they're all in. In winter we turn orangey pink! Keep the lights comin'!
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    The difference from above:

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I wouldn't mind a couple of these in my back alley to prevent the light pollution I get. The white light is clean, crisp, better for seeing most objects, saves money, and doesn't light up the whole city once they're all in. In winter we turn orangey pink! Keep the lights comin'!
    Actually low pressure sodium vapor lights give off less light pollution because they emit less of the spectrum of light, white lights give off pretty much the entire visible spectrum...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp

  37. #37

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    "As sodium vapor lights are often the source of urban illumination, this turns the sky a tinge of orange. If the sky is clear or hazy, the light will radiate over large distances, causing large enough cities to be recognizable by an orange glow when viewed from outside the city."
    What could be a case for white LED lights effect in this regard I wonder. I perhaps was talking more in line with the more direct lighting that LED streetlamps provide, hence the less light I find shining into houses on LED streetlamp roads. I always find LED streets less lit, but better concentrated, and I wonder to what effect and difference there is between the two light sources (as a matter of actual specifics in difference).
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  38. #38
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  39. #39

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    I am the author of the article mentioned in post #27 for LED street lighting. The writer of "LED's Brightness Headache" mentioned in post #25 is correct about his assessment on LED brightness - LED's inherent brightness is unsafe and ineffective. With conventional reflectors, the problem cannot be easily solved with regular reflector sizes. However, I believe I have a solution. It is rather high tech and I am working on it to prove feasibility and towards cost reduction.

    Nisa Khan
    Last edited by Admin; 04-11-2013 at 05:08 PM. Reason: fixed formatting issues

  40. #40

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    ^ ok that was cool
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I wouldn't mind a couple of these in my back alley to prevent the light pollution I get. The white light is clean, crisp, better for seeing most objects, saves money, and doesn't light up the whole city once they're all in. In winter we turn orangey pink! Keep the lights comin'!
    Actually low pressure sodium vapor lights give off less light pollution because they emit less of the spectrum of light, white lights give off pretty much the entire visible spectrum...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp

    Yes and no...

    The problem is that they have no focus and spill light everywhere thus giving off far more light pollution. And beyond that the quality of light is actually quite terrible.

    Astronomers prefer LPS because they can easily filter it out. harder with broadspectrum LED.. That being said, LPS is a joke for urban lighting, and HPS is worse.

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    Many of the neighbourhoods in Hawaii use LPS because of their proximity to the observatories. They obviously serve a purpose there, but they give off horrible light quality. I would hate to see them used here for any reason (not that anyone is really considering it).

    The LEDs seem to be kind of a subjective thing. I wasn't too thrilled with the light temperature when I first started seeing them around the city, but I don't really notice it now. And I have never found there to be any glare issue with them while driving. But that's just a personal opinion.

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    I like LPS for highway lighting (such as at interchanges) because they don't disrupt night vision as much. LEDs could be used for interchange lighting too, but only at much lower illumination levels. "White" LEDs put out a lot of blue light, and rod cells (responsible for low light vision) are very sensitive to blue light. I like the LEDs for urban lighting, but I think some of the harsh quality of them is because they are too bright. With a lower illumination level LED light would resemble moonlight.

  44. #44

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    ^Edmonton in winter will be a different story once the whole city has LED's. It will look like moonlight (that's what I've been telling everyone it resembles best... more natural in a strange way) and not a gloomy horror movie of orange haze.

    Good points by all on this topic; good to see.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    Many of the neighbourhoods in Hawaii use LPS because of their proximity to the observatories. They obviously serve a purpose there, but they give off horrible light quality. I would hate to see them used here for any reason (not that anyone is really considering it).

    The LEDs seem to be kind of a subjective thing. I wasn't too thrilled with the light temperature when I first started seeing them around the city, but I don't really notice it now. And I have never found there to be any glare issue with them while driving. But that's just a personal opinion.
    I'm guessing that a lot of the issues with glare and colour will be corrected or accepted in short order since they get a lot of press.

    There's so much more potential with LEDs to design enhanced features into the fixtures. Eg lighting that would disperse light for roadways as it does now (status quo replacement) but focus other LEDs in the fixture on crosswalks, sidewalks, maybe using different lens, sensors, etc. for those areas.

    For instance the lights on either side of a crosswalk (to the left and right) could better illuminate the crosswalk and people crossing the street by providing more lateral lighting. In situations where the sidewalk is well back from the street a dual lighting LED could be designed to better light those walks. During foggy or snowing situations different levels of lighting could be employed or differently coloured LEDs...

    During special events and celebrations (night runs, parades, elections, oilers wins, whatever) different coloured LEDs could be turned on to provide a 'path' or signal, etc. Even bring back the "gloomy horror movie orange" for halloween.
    Last edited by KC; 05-11-2013 at 08:17 AM.

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    One of the best things I saw for glare is downward facing lights. Some of the bridges on Anthony Henday have this where the lights are mounted between the beams of the bridge, I do wonder why the mount lights on the sides on any new bridge when the bottom works better.

    The old type of mercury vapor and sodium vapor fixtures had a lens that extended down below the cobrahead of the light, the newer ones are flatter so more of the light is directed downwards and not sideways into your eyes.

    Some of the problems with the LED lights might be the posts are lower, your eye is looking at the road and cars so with a low post the lights are in your field of vision more, a higher post would reduce this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    ^Edmonton in winter will be a different story once the whole city has LED's. It will look like moonlight (that's what I've been telling everyone it resembles best... more natural in a strange way) and not a gloomy horror movie of orange haze.
    Only if we ratchet down the illumination levels. Otherwise LEDs will look a lot like the harsh blue mercury vapor streetlamps of 30 years ago. The streetlight in front of my house was once a 70 watt HPS, which provided a good level of illumination. Then the city changed it to 100 watt HPS and I now think it is too bright. I don't want to see anything more than 40 watts when my street goes LED.

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    It would be interesting to see the continued use of LPS to visually indicate interchanges etc,
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    ^Edmonton in winter will be a different story once the whole city has LED's. It will look like moonlight (that's what I've been telling everyone it resembles best... more natural in a strange way) and not a gloomy horror movie of orange haze.
    Only if we ratchet down the illumination levels. Otherwise LEDs will look a lot like the harsh blue mercury vapor streetlamps of 30 years ago. The streetlight in front of my house was once a 70 watt HPS, which provided a good level of illumination. Then the city changed it to 100 watt HPS and I now think it is too bright. I don't want to see anything more than 40 watts when my street goes LED.

    With LEDs we might be able to cut consumption after it snows. Increase light output in spring summer and fall and then reduce it in the winter. Through some sort of life extension programming/circuitry, we cold further extend the life of the product - maybe 25% longer? i.e. the LEDs turned off in the winter would be used for base load (non-peak) lighting demand periods in other seasons. Or think traditional field rotation. Actually, every day, light intensity could be varied by progressively switching on then off LEDS as darkness comes and goes. Then it's just a case of averaging 'bulb' usage to maximize unit lifespan.


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    Last edited by KC; 05-11-2013 at 02:27 PM.

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    ^ Good point about how well LEDs respond to dimming. Unlike nearly all other light sources, LEDs get more efficient in the cold and more efficient at lower currents. With the combination of low temperatures, a reflective surface and lower target illumination levels power consumption could be cut in half again for most of the winter.

  51. #51

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    ^ Yeah, just trying to make the case that emerging technologies get better and cheaper.

    eg. Say in 2000, your spouse said, here's a thousand dollars for a new camera. You had a working 35 mm but the new digital cameras were, and this is important, just then coming onto the market for about $1,000 for a 3 MP camera. Now you knew that you were going to have a load of other future priorities to spend on (house, mtge, kids, etc.) so it was unlikely that in 5 or 6 years you'd have a battle on your hands convincing your spouse that it made sense to toss a relatively new digital camera and buy another one - even if it was 10-times better. What would you do? Make do with the current 35 mm, buy a new but cheap and on the verge of being obsolete 35 mm to "make do" plus keep say $800 - $900 for a few more years or go for it and get the 3 Megapixel camera?

    I think in about 5 years the digital cameras were in fact 10 times better.

    Now the city with payback periods, continuous replacement plans etc are another matter but some of the concepts are the same. I bet they could even get deals on the old technology lighting making them more cost effective as an interim measure.

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    ^ You need to factor in operating costs. No, the very expensive mediocre quality early generation digital camera would not have been worth buying for a casual photographer who shot a few rolls of film a month. On the other hand, someone who shot a roll a day would have made that money back quickly by cutting out film and processing costs, and would have more money to buy a new and improved version a few years later.

    With streetlights, cutting power consumption by 50 watts saves 220 kW-h (about $30) a year. They also eliminate the need for bulb replacement every 3-4 years. This is likely enough to result in a net savings even if the lights are again replaced by next generation technology in 10 years.

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    I live near Rossdale Bridge, and this past spring they installed LED lights as part of the bridge reconstruction. There's no upward or side light bleed, just downward. The entire bridge is nicely illuminated with white light instead of that ghastly orange color. I just drove back and crossed this bridge tonight...yes they are bright but not unpleasantly so. Not like those after-market halogen headlights on douchemobiles these days.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I live near Rossdale Bridge, and this past spring they installed LED lights as part of the bridge reconstruction. There's no upward or side light bleed, just downward. The entire bridge is nicely illuminated with white light instead of that ghastly orange color. I just drove back and crossed this bridge tonight...yes they are bright but not unpleasantly so. Not like those after-market halogen headlights on douchemobiles these days.
    Yeah I think any glare issues, say at tops of hills, bridges, etc should be easily managed. I only worry that a mass rollout to save money ASAP will stick the city with substandard lighting for years.

  55. #55

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    Here's where some efficiency gains are going to be obtained. But it's still incredibly un-imaginative.

    And of course the Americans are immediately weaponizing the opportunity (see below).




    ISS Finland offers innovative street lighting in Helsinki - ISS World - Group Website

    "Through the acquisition of the C2 SmartLight® control solution, Helsinki is among the first capitals in the world to start using intelligent lighting systems. Intelligent lighting allows the right level of lighting to be offered when it is needed in specified areas. In the future, it will be possible to control outdoor lights in different areas of Helsinki according to schedule, luminance, the season, motion detectors or volume of traffic.

    During the 15 year agreement, some 10,000 individual automatic controllers will be installed. Using these controllers, it will be possible for street lights to be dimmed or brightened as required, for example along pedestrian routes and beside pedestrian crossings and bus stops."...

    http://www.issworld.com/en/press/new...ng-in-helsinki




    Turning street lighting into a system for gathering Big Data | L'Atelier: Disruptive innovation

    "In addition, the Light Sensory Network (LSN) will provide a regular income from the use of the data gathered. By encouraging the emergence of a new ‘smart’ ecosystem replacing what has hitherto been ‘dumb’ infrastructure, Sensity is offering city authorities a way of turning this costly public service into a revenue-generator. However, the major remaining issue appears to be the question of data confidentiality. As the LSN is likely to become one of the largest sensor systems ever put together, its potential as a security and surveillance network is obvious. "

    http://www.atelier.net/en/trends/art...ig-data_425042



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    Last edited by KC; 10-11-2013 at 09:25 AM.

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    LA saved $10 million. Now if they had waited... i.e. I wonder what LA's cost-benefit calcs would show four years later. I imagine they paid a far higher price for their LED lighting.


    Cree $99 LED streetlight could come to a city near you | Crave - CNET

    "Of course, Cree isn't the only runner in the race to convert U.S. streets to LED lighting. Last year, Los Angeles concluded a four-year program to replace 140,000 street lights with energy efficient LED fixtures from companies such as Cree, Hadco, and Leotek. The result? $10 million dollars a year in savings and 40,500 tons of emissions displaced. "

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57597262-1/cree-$99-led-streetlight-could-come-to-a-city-near-you/

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    Last edited by KC; 17-11-2013 at 08:42 AM.

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    LA saved $10 million. Now if they had waited... i.e. I wonder what LA's cost-benefit calcs would show four years later. I imagine they paid a far higher price for their LED lighting.


    Cree $99 LED streetlight could come to a city near you | Crave - CNET

    "Of course, Cree isn't the only runner in the race to convert U.S. streets to LED lighting. Last year, Los Angeles concluded a four-year program to replace 140,000 street lights with energy efficient LED fixtures from companies such as Cree, Hadco, and Leotek. The result? $10 million dollars a year in savings and 40,500 tons of emissions displaced. "

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57597262-1/cree-$99-led-streetlight-could-come-to-a-city-near-you/
    Yes but those savings were immediate. So waiting 4 years would equal 40 million saved PLUS interest which could go to other projects to save money. Should they could save more later but to push back that far would lose out on a huge scale of savings likely not 40million plus interest. And if that money saved has been pushed to other 'green' initiatives that also save money then you get a great little feedback loop happening. Also the goal with this stuff really should be environmental savings not financial, the financial should be the secondary stuff that just makes life easier and adds to the good vibes.. 40,500 tons of emissions is massive amount, *back of napkin math* that's like 8100 cars.

  58. #58

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    Yeah, I'll admit, I might be completely wrong on this thread, it depends on the dollars saved and the willingness to replace and landfill or sell four or five year old LEDs. Of course I'm suspicious about the savings. Do they include labour costs for replacement, or were replacements part of their normal cycle? Also, if will they now turn around and replace those now to upgrade them to the latest / greatest versions or keep them on the old technology replacement cycle so those neighbourhoods aren't relatively disadvantaged compared to others yet to come?


    Here's another obvious idea for networked LED lighting. Coloured LEDs to identify emergency routes, etc. and pertinent to our climate "snow clearing parking bans".



    I'm back with further cost-benefit material:

    Los Angeles Has Swapped Out 140,000 Street Lights for Highly Efficient LEDS
    by William O'ConnorJun 20, 2013 4:45 am EDT

    "The replacement program cost an estimated $57 million over the four years. It was funded through a $40 million loan and $16 million in rebate funds from the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, as well as $3.5 million from the Street Lighting Maintenance Assessment Fund. After the loans are repaid through energy savings, the program is expected to save the city $10 million annually from reduced energy usage and maintenance."

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ient-leds.html

    So a part of the $10 million/yr is due to "maintenance" so a part of those annual savings wouldn't apply for some lights that would have been part of a regular maint. schedule anyway - vs. ad hoc maint. Which would normally be greatest near the end of a bulb's lifespan. Warranty would minimize initial early life cycle failures. So I in the end the savings in the first years would be a bit less than $10million year. That's still impressive. Nonetheless, they still have to capture another $17 million to get ahead. I imagine high capital costs on those early LEDs compared to the $99 versions delays the benefits.

    Now, even $99 still seems high to me for just basic mass produced lights. $30, $40, $50 seems more reasonable to me, a total layman. But add in wifi, more advance light sensors or timers to minimize usage, better directionality, custom designs for around crosswalks, etc. would push up the future costs.
    .
    Last edited by KC; 17-11-2013 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Add another LA article reference

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Yeah, I'll admit, I might be completely wrong on this thread, it depends on the dollars saved and the willingness to replace and landfill or sell four or five year old LEDs. Of course I'm suspicious about the savings. Do they include labour costs for replacement, or were replacements part of their normal cycle? Also, if will they now turn around and replace those now to upgrade them to the latest / greatest versions or keep them on the old technology replacement cycle so those neighbourhoods aren't relatively disadvantaged compared to others yet to come?


    Here's another obvious idea for networked LED lighting. Coloured LEDs to identify emergency routes, etc. and pertinent to our climate "snow clearing parking bans".



    I'm back with further cost-benefit material:

    Los Angeles Has Swapped Out 140,000 Street Lights for Highly Efficient LEDS
    by William O'ConnorJun 20, 2013 4:45 am EDT

    "The replacement program cost an estimated $57 million over the four years. It was funded through a $40 million loan and $16 million in rebate funds from the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, as well as $3.5 million from the Street Lighting Maintenance Assessment Fund. After the loans are repaid through energy savings, the program is expected to save the city $10 million annually from reduced energy usage and maintenance."

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ient-leds.html

    So a part of the $10 million/yr is due to "maintenance" so a part of those annual savings wouldn't apply for some lights that would have been part of a regular maint. schedule anyway - vs. ad hoc maint. Which would normally be greatest near the end of a bulb's lifespan. Warranty would minimize initial early life cycle failures. So I in the end the savings in the first years would be a bit less than $10million year. That's still impressive. Nonetheless, they still have to capture another $17 million to get ahead. I imagine high capital costs on those early LEDs compared to the $99 versions delays the benefits.

    Now, even $99 still seems high to me for just basic mass produced lights. $30, $40, $50 seems more reasonable to me, a total layman. But add in wifi, more advance light sensors or timers to minimize usage, better directionality, custom designs for around crosswalks, etc. would push up the future costs.
    .
    Hmmmm interesting. Good link!

  60. #60

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    ^ Sorry for all the typos. (I'll blame it on tablet error.)

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    What about this as a solution? A "golden glow"

    http://www.braun-lighting.com/index....9c5f81be61be74
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  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ike9126 View Post
    What about this as a solution? A "golden glow"

    http://www.braun-lighting.com/index....9c5f81be61be74
    Wow! Very interesting article. I had no idea that simple colour mattered so much to people.

    ..and design possibilities so little.

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    A new LED streetlight was recently installed at the south end of the new apartment building on 95 St and 113 Av. I like the idea, but this one is way too bright. This size might be appropriate for the main roads, but I do not want more of them on my neighborhood streets. Let's cut the upfront costs a bit and cut the power consumption in half by using reasonable brightness LED lamps on residential side streets.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 21-12-2013 at 12:15 PM.

  64. #64

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    Some street lighting is so bright, you can be in your backyard and still read a newspaper at midnight. Generally, I find that in Canada we use way more street lighting that in many places in the USA. Maybe it has to do with our long dark winters. Even so, when there is snow on the ground and overcast skies, the amount of light can edge on ridiculous, IMHO. On nights like that, I wish there were automatic dimmers. I cannot see how hard that would be to accomplish with all the technology available.
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    Properly designed reflectors and lenses that focus the light better can benefit in a few ways, less light pollution to other areas, brighter roads and sidewalks, less poles and lights needed and less electricity used.

    PRT you might want to invest into either metal venetian blinds, they reflect a lot of the light and heat in the summer, or blackout curtains.

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    ^ The new LED lights are well designed with regard to beam patterns and cutoffs. They are just too bright for residential street applications, especially in the winter when the ground is covered in highly reflective snow. On an overcast winter night the light reflects off the snow on the ground, then reflects back off the clouds and everything is horribly overlit. The change in color temperature from HPS to LED makes the problem worse. We need to reserve the currently used lamps for the main roads and use lower power lamps for residential streets. Adding dimming technology to further reduce the light output late at night would also be good.

  67. #67

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    Interesting information in this article on residential lights, but the concept of rapidly advancing technology shows here. Also, the longevity comments and rated life are interesting.

    So... if you get early tech installed in front of your house and then colour and capability technology advances and the life expectancy of existing installs increase by say 50%, can you envision the city coming along and upgrading your streetlight anytime soon, or even at the original replacement lifespan?

    My guess is that once installed you face a very real risk being stuck with outdated, if not relatively poor, technology for many years.



    LED bulbs: We test the new products to find out who has the bright stuff - The Washington Post
    By Katherine Salant, Published: December 19 | Updated: Friday, December 20

    "Philips has already developed a bulb that allows you to wirelessly vary the color of the lighting from standard white to shades of blue, yellow, red and green and create a mood as you settle into a comfortable chair after a hard day’s work, drift off to sleep at the end of the day or have a few friends over to share a bottle of wine. Also get ready for unconventional shapes and sizes."
    ...
    "When Philips’s A19 LED was run for 25,000 hours straight (this took two years and 10 months) by the Department of Energy, the bulb was still emitting light at 100 percent of its original brightness. The manufacturers do not yet know when the light emitted by the A19 LEDs will be too faint to be usable because the technology is too new; theoretically, several engineers said, the bulbs could last another 25,000 hours."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/reales...02c_story.html
    Last edited by KC; 26-12-2013 at 12:44 PM.

  68. #68

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    Probably not. But to not upgrade because something better is around the corner isn't productive either, because there's always something better around the corner, so you'd just never upgrade.

  69. #69

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    ^ it depends on where you're at in the development curve and what can be expected from a new technology. I expect great new developments in the near future.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    The new LED lights are well designed with regard to beam patterns and cutoffs. They are just too bright for residential street applications, especially in the winter when the ground is covered in highly reflective snow. On an overcast winter night the light reflects off the snow on the ground, then reflects back off the clouds and everything is horribly overlit. The change in color temperature from HPS to LED makes the problem worse. We need to reserve the currently used lamps for the main roads and use lower power lamps for residential streets. Adding dimming technology to further reduce the light output late at night would also be good.
    I agree they're far too bright and really LED is the wrong application for street or commercial lighting. Plasma (radio frequency induction lighting a Tesla invention) has roughly double the lumens, costs half as much, and supposedly lasts twice as long. Also, vehicle headlamps are much better than they were a decade ago.
    Last edited by Frank Wilson; 29-12-2013 at 12:45 PM.

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    I've never really thought about this, but it is already affecting movie production. I thought the whiter lights leads a more 60s-70s feel to the area memories of mercury vapor lights.

    How LED Streetlights Will Change Cinema (And Make Cities Look Awesome)
    ... All of those LEDs, with their new urban color scheme, will dramatically change how the city appears on camera, thus giving Los Angeles a brand new look in the age of digital filmmaking. ...
    http://gizmodo.com/led-streetlights-...y-c-1514840416

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    ^ While I was too young to drive at the time, I do remember liking the transition from the harsh blue mercury vapor lamps to the softer orange sodium vapor lamps in the early 1980s. LEDs have better color rendering than mercury vapor (which was almost devoid of red), but they still have some of the same qualities when used at high illumination levels. Dial back the brightness and things improve as LEDs start to resemble natural moonlight.

  73. #73

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    What I have noticed on LED lighted streets is that IMHO, they have really raised the lighting levels to ridiculous amounts.

    You can go in your backyard and easily read a newspaper at midnight. Do we really need so much light at night? Just look at the QEII to the airport. IMHO, they could reduce the number of lights by 2/3rds and still have plenty enough.

    You go down to the US and in many cities, arterial roads and neighbourhoods that have no streetlights at all or just at intersections. A little spooky but with halogen headlights I have no trouble getting around.

    I think we should not be scared of the dark and cut our lighting by half. I would love to see some tests done with lower wattage lights.
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  74. #74

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    ^ since new technologies are inevitably viewed from just a replacement point of view and most people are too lazy to try to see the potential, it takes a while for businesses to offer up creative, disruptive variants... But they are starting to flow:

    These LED streetlights can fight crime | Grist

    "Instead of driving away crime by installing more or brighter lights, police officers can brighten these networked LED lights from inside their cars — turning up the light on suspicious activity, or illuminating the path of a fleeing suspect. Chattanooga is safe from light pollution, money is saved, and crime is fought. You don’t need to be a streetlight expert to call that a win-win."...

    "Still, a light system like this is handy for a lot of other things besides crime fighting. Like lighting people’s way during evacuations. Or after natural disasters. It’s the old progress vs. civil liberties question. ..."

    http://grist.org/list/these-led-stre...n-fight-crime/


    The Streetlight of the Future Will Do So Much More Than Light Your Street
    EMILY BADGERMAR 13, 2013

    "Global Green Lighting installed 350 of these next-generation streetlights in and around Coolidge Park as part of the pilot. Crime dropped. “We went from having people vacate the park at dark to having frisbee leagues at 11 at night,” Lepard says. Now the company – which had long been in the electronic component design world, not the lighting business – has a nearly $20 million order from the city to install 27,000 such lights throughout town. Starting next week, they’ll be delivering 350 to 400 lights a week, all controllable individually or in concert."...

    "The lamp pole could suddenly become a vastly more valuable strip of vertical real estate. Lepard pictures that the city could even generate revenue renting out access to it. "...

    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/tec...r-street/4958/



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    Last edited by KC; 04-02-2014 at 08:06 AM.

  75. #75

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    How LED Streetlights Will Change Cinema (And Make Cities Look Awesome)

    http://gizmodo.com/led-streetlights-...0416/+gmanaugh

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    More choices are appearing... Maybe Edmonton's light standards don't have to look like every other city's.

    Public Lighting Authority of Detroit Install Historically Styled Street Lights
    Sep 5, 2014 By Jessica Byrd
    Excerpt:

    "The LED lights being installed in neighborhoods are the lighting equivalent of 150 watt High Pressure Sodium lights, twice as bright as the 75 watt High Pressure Sodium lights that have been the standard in the past."

    http://michronicleonline.com/2014/09...street-lights/



    City to consider 'smart' LED street lights | Stuff.co.nz
    Excerpt:
    "They would also be fitted with infra-red sensors so they can dim to about 10 per cent of full power when no-one is around and illuminate whenever someone walks by."

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...-street-lights





    One more. I sure hope this isn't near mature as the guy below suggests. There's so many more neat things that could be imagined, well beyond just adding sensors to save electricity.



    Cutting Emissions with Light? Copenhagen Adopts Smart Street Lamps : Environment : Nature World News
    Excerpt:
    " ..."Really smart street light systems are going to be much more about the sensors the street lights have, than the LEDs that happen to be in them. The technology is getting very mature very quickly," he said."

    http://www.natureworldnews.com/artic...reet-lamps.htm
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2014 at 09:29 AM.

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    No! We absolutely do not need brighter lights in our neighborhoods. With the much higher level of blue light in LEDs compared to sodium vapor they need to be half the brightness or less, not double.

    Also not a big fan of motion sensor streetlights. The energy savings might sound good at first, but no way do I want the streetlight in front of my house to be flashing all night. Maybe dim to half brightness from midnight to 6 AM instead.

  78. #78

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    ^you'll agree with this:

    Lighting cities with cheap, glaring LEDs is a dim move
    NewScientist, October 15, 2014 by Jeff Hecht

    "...but if they had waited for better bulbs it would have saved time, money and aggravation."

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.VFWJZohOKK1

  79. #79

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    I'm back to add a quote. It seems they are starting to see the potential and are getting much more creative...

    Cisco and Sensity partner on smart street lights
    Sensors use spare energy freed up by power-efficient LED lights, which are also being pushed as a network in their own right
    By CAROLINE GABRIEL, 29 October, 2014

    Excerpt:
    "The NetSense modules use 802.11a/n WiFi for local area communication, and cellular or available fiber for data backhaul. WiFi, compared to something like ZigBee or Sigfox, is one of the most power-hungry wireless protocols in the IoT, but because these units are being installed on top of existing power supply infrastructure, this is less important than it would be in wireless and remote deployments.

    "But the main reason for using WiFi in this scenario is its data bandwidth, since some of the potential applications will use video. According to Sensity, its platform's "native video support and storage can perform real time analytics on raw HD video streams for traditional applications, such as extending security perimeters; but also enables an entirely new arena of innovative services such as real time parking availability, traffic reports, asset tracking, snowfall depth detection and many more. With NetSense, video cameras are transformed into useful sensors, where specific event triggers are used to determine how much video, if any, is sent back to central servers." "...

    http://www.rethink-wireless.com/2014...eet-lights.htm
    Last edited by KC; 02-11-2014 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Add quote

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    ^^ I certainly do agree with that article, but I think the best solution in most cases is lower illumination levels, not lower color temperature. Cutting the illumination level in residential areas to something resembling natural 5000 K moonlight would cut energy costs by another factor of 10. The lamps could use an array of cheap 20 mA LEDs (the kind used in Christmas lights) instead of the high power, high brightness LEDs that cause glare problems. For major roads where higher illumination levels are warranted, use color temperatures of 3000 K or less or just stick with sodium vapor lamps.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ I certainly do agree with that article, but I think the best solution in most cases is lower illumination levels, not lower color temperature. Cutting the illumination level in residential areas to something resembling natural 5000 K moonlight would cut energy costs by another factor of 10. The lamps could use an array of cheap 20 mA LEDs (the kind used in Christmas lights) instead of the high power, high brightness LEDs that cause glare problems. For major roads where higher illumination levels are warranted, use color temperatures of 3000 K or less or just stick with sodium vapor lamps.
    But if they've aready replaced the streetlights in your neighbourhood, will they rush back to put in the new innovative improved ambience lighting? You'll be at the tail end of the replacement cycle and if innovations like the Cisco article come about, your property values may even suffer as people prefer the latest tech neighbourhoods to the obsolete tech neighbourhoods (no different than with any infrastructure upgrades).

  82. #82

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    Agree with the article. There's a lot of LED going up in the north end, and I wish it was a touch warmer. I haven't really noticed any glare, so maybe we're using a better product?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  83. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Agree with the article. There's a lot of LED going up in the north end, and I wish it was a touch warmer. I haven't really noticed any glare, so maybe we're using a better product?
    Ahh, to me the issue of light quality is splitting hairs. ...or like talking about which flip phone was best just before the first 'smart phone' appeared on the market. Big changes are coming way, way beyond just the colour of the light.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ I certainly do agree with that article, but I think the best solution in most cases is lower illumination levels, not lower color temperature. Cutting the illumination level in residential areas to something resembling natural 5000 K moonlight would cut energy costs by another factor of 10. The lamps could use an array of cheap 20 mA LEDs (the kind used in Christmas lights) instead of the high power, high brightness LEDs that cause glare problems. For major roads where higher illumination levels are warranted, use color temperatures of 3000 K or less or just stick with sodium vapor lamps.
    But if they've aready replaced the streetlights in your neighbourhood, will they rush back to put in the new innovative improved ambience lighting? You'll be at the tail end of the replacement cycle and if innovations like the Cisco article come about, your property values may even suffer as people prefer the latest tech neighbourhoods to the obsolete tech neighbourhoods (no different than with any infrastructure upgrades).
    HIghly doubt that anyone would make a decision about buying a house based no whether it has LED street lights or not

    They just finished installing some on 50th st.. You can see the old sodium lights next to the LEDs'.. quite a drastic difference. Our street has the sodium vapor lights, and I do think I prefer them.
    Parkdale

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ I certainly do agree with that article, but I think the best solution in most cases is lower illumination levels, not lower color temperature. Cutting the illumination level in residential areas to something resembling natural 5000 K moonlight would cut energy costs by another factor of 10. The lamps could use an array of cheap 20 mA LEDs (the kind used in Christmas lights) instead of the high power, high brightness LEDs that cause glare problems. For major roads where higher illumination levels are warranted, use color temperatures of 3000 K or less or just stick with sodium vapor lamps.
    But if they've aready replaced the streetlights in your neighbourhood, will they rush back to put in the new innovative improved ambience lighting? You'll be at the tail end of the replacement cycle and if innovations like the Cisco article come about, your property values may even suffer as people prefer the latest tech neighbourhoods to the obsolete tech neighbourhoods (no different than with any infrastructure upgrades).
    HIghly doubt that anyone would make a decision about buying a house based no whether it has LED street lights or not

    They just finished installing some on 50th st.. You can see the old sodium lights next to the LEDs'.. quite a drastic difference. Our street has the sodium vapor lights, and I do think I prefer them.

    You're right who cares about just the lights, and who shops for housing in the dark anyway. However, you're missing the point. In a few years, they may not be just LED streetlights.

    eg. Would you buy a new flip phone today, or a smart phone? They're both just phones.



    ...and a problem with converting the lights now is that in a few years, new technology may offer huge unimaginable jumps in technology and neighbourhood services but then the City will be saying in the future, 'but if we adopt the latest tech. in neighbourhoods now, it will create dissension in the old-tech, plain-old-LED-lights neighbourhoods we just did few years ago - and those lights have 20 yrs of service left in them and they capture 80% of the electricity savings already so we can't justify another conversion based on electricity savings.. so we now have to dumb down the lights going forward to keep everyone happy...'.
    Last edited by KC; 04-11-2014 at 10:49 AM.

  86. #86

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    The payback on LED streetlights is about 7 years, so it makes economic sense to replace the sodium lights, imho... The next iteration of lighting technology may, or may not, have a similar payback by then... we'll see. All we know right now is that it makes economic sense to do this now...

    http://www.lightsavers.ca/case_studi...se%20Study.pdf

  87. #87

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    I think that a lot of the complaints about LED light quality are based on the fact that people are accustomed to the sodium light and that LED light is jarring by comparison. Once LED lights are more commonplace, one's eye will be accustomed to that, and the sodium light will seem very muddy.

    A good side-by-side comparison:


  88. #88

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    I do find the shadows from LED to be far more significant. It's a bit unnerving when walking down streets with LED. With sodium there's more light spillage, whereas with LED that dark spot behind an obstacle is dark.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    ^ It isn't "spillage" (poor light control), it is the way the eye works. Rod cells (responsible for night and peripheral vision) are very sensitive to blue light, while cone cells (responsible for detailed vision and color perception) are more sensitive to yellow. Both types of cell automatically become less sensitive as illumination levels increase, but rods are affected before cones. Low color temperature sources like sodium vapor can provide enough light to stimulate cones and provide detailed vision without desensitizing the rods too much, so your peripheral vision works well and you can see into the shadows. High color temperature sources desensitize the rods and the shadows are sharper.

    High color temperature is best for getting maximum visibility out of a very small amount of light (think of a full moon in a rural area away from artificial lights), but low color temperature is best for higher level outdoor night lighting. At even higher illumination levels with multiple sources and diffuse reflections to prevents shadows (in other words, indoor lighting), the shadow problems disappear and bluer light sources may appear more aesthetically pleasing. Bluer may look better indoors, but the sooner the current blue light fad for bright streetlights and car headlights passes, the better. I'd like to see some more R&D on yellow LEDs - if these could reach the efficiency of modern blue LEDs they could be an ideal solution.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 04-11-2014 at 01:51 PM.

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    The payback on LED streetlights is about 7 years, so it makes economic sense to replace the sodium lights, imho... The next iteration of lighting technology may, or may not, have a similar payback by then... we'll see. All we know right now is that it makes economic sense to do this now...

    http://www.lightsavers.ca/case_studi...se%20Study.pdf
    And that's the thing. If payback drops to just another 10% potential gain in 7 years time but the LEDs offer all kinds of new enhancements, the dollars will rule. Adoption of next-gen LEDs may drop precipitously because everyone will then be butting heads with municipal accountants and not people with vision. ;-(

    Anyone that lived here in the 1980s & 90s knows what that is like in terms of infrastructure maintenance, repair and enhancement.


    Mass 'smart city' experiment lights up Copenhagen suburb
    http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/11...eoId=346787120


    The Future of Cities
    The Internet of Everything will Change How We Live
    By John Chambers and Wim Elfrink OCTOBER 31, 2014

    "By using such energy-saving technologies, cities can drastically lower their municipal expenditures on electricity. Cisco estimates that smart street lighting initiatives can also reduce area crime by seven percent because of better visibility and more content citizenry. Further, connected light poles can serve as wireless networking access points, enabling citizens and city managers to take advantage of pervasive connectivity. And networked sensors incorporated into utility lines could help reduce costs for both consumers and providers, with meters being “read” remotely, and much more accurately. Cities such as Nice, France are already implementing smart lighting, which monitors lamp intensity and traffic sensors to reduce car theft, assaults, and even home burglary. These lighting initiatives are also expected to reduce the city’s energy bill by more than $8 million."

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ture-of-cities
    Last edited by KC; 04-11-2014 at 04:18 PM. Reason: add a couple links

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    Its a matter of deciding when to jump in to a tech that is constantly evolving. Eventually you have to make the commitment. Since the economics make sense now, choose your product and move forward, imho. Just make sure that you implement said product in such a way that it allows for easier retrofitting to newer technology. Ideally should be just a matter of replacing the head with whatever comes down the pike...

    EDIT: Or even just replacing a module within the head.
    Last edited by lat; 04-11-2014 at 04:14 PM.

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    Driving across the Capilano last night I see they're getting ready to re-lamp the bridge ( new standards, bases and cabtire) and both approaches. It'll be interesting to see what that ends up looking like
    Parkdale

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    Whitemud between about 34th and 50th there were quite a few new bases too.

    I just read this article how LEDs are now becoming more efficient than compact flourescent.
    http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/...-fluorescents/

    However they are still less efficient than some sodium vapor lamps, but they have a much longer lifespan, as well the efficiency of LEDs will increase as white LEDs are still a very new technology
    http://www.grahlighting.eu/learning-...ogy-comparison

  94. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    I just read this article how LEDs are now becoming more efficient than compact flourescent.
    http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/...-fluorescents/

    However they are still less efficient than some sodium vapor lamps, but they have a much longer lifespan, as well the efficiency of LEDs will increase as white LEDs are still a very new technology
    http://www.grahlighting.eu/learning-...ogy-comparison
    From the grahlighting article:
    Less energy consumption
    LED street lights use 40-80% less electricity and have at least 5 times the life expectancy than regular High Pressure Sodium (HPS) fixtures. LED lamps are 7 times more energy efficient than incandescent and twice as efficient as fluorescent lamps.

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    Not according to the lumens/watt rating, LEDs get at best currently 100 lumens/watt some sodium vapor types get up to 180 lumens/watt.

  96. #96

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    True, the article seems to contradict itself. However, low pressure sodium gets up to 180 lumens / watt, but LED get up to 150, according to their table. LPS colour temp is 1800 K though, which is unusable, imho. HPS is up to 130 lumens / watt... and the colour temp is 2000 K, which is still bad, again imho...

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    ^^^ If replacing HPS with LED results in 80% less energy consumption the illumination level has been reduced. That is a good thing. If you don't want to reduce the illumination level, stick with sodium vapor.+

    ^ LPS is a poor choice for indoor lighting, but they are perfect for things like lighting highway interchanges. The complete lack of blue light prevents them from disrupting your night vision, so you can still see after you drive out of the lighted area.

    The efficiency of LEDs may increase some, but the hard limits aren't that far off. Theoretical maximum for a 100% efficient, 100 CRI light source is 250 lumens/watt. Cutting some red and blue light and increasing yellow and green will increase this, but once you get to about 350 lm/W the CRI begins to drop rapidly and the light color starts to turn from white to green. The use of a phosphor to convert blue to white also introduces an unavoidable loss of about 25%, so a "perfect" white LED would achieve 200-280 lm/W.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 05-11-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^^ If replacing HPS with LED results in 80% less energy consumption the illumination level has been reduced. That is a good thing. If you don't want to reduce the illumination level, stick with sodium vapor.
    ^ LPS is a poor choice for indoor lighting, but they are perfect for things like lighting highway interchanges. The complete lack of blue light prevents them from disrupting your night vision, so you can still see after you drive out of the lighted area.
    The eye is more sensitive to bluer light, so I would guess that if LED highway lighting is disrupting your night vision, then it is too bright and should be reduced, as per your first point. This would save even more money on power...

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    ^^ Less light is certainly a good option too.

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