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Thread: Metro Line - North LRT | Churchill to NAIT | Under Construction

  1. #8501
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    If they walk away from Thales and the contract can they then hire someone else to fix it?

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    Perhaps, but if they do expect years of lawsuits from various parties

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    I'd be pleasantly surprised if the city had the balls to actually sue, and win. However, at the end of the day, I just want the fukkin thing to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If they walk away from Thales and the contract can they then hire someone else to fix it?
    Not that I'm an expert or anything but I have a close friend in commercial Law with an active practice here in the city. My lawyer friend suspects that as long as there is a on going Lawsuit, chances of the city or a 3rd party, can't do anything with Metro. I'm wondering that if both parties drag this out in litigation, would the city even be able to still continue day-to-day operations of Metro? I asked and he didn't have an answer.
    Could such a scenario play out with Metro?
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    Curious to know how much getting the two lines running on the same system would cost. If we do walk away from the contract, would the retained money cover such a venture?

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    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up? They're announcing nait trains currently as approaching southgate for every stop. The signage and vocal announcements are glitchy as hell too. I only made it to class yesterday on a gamble of which train was which headed from Corona Station.

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    ^ The CBTC system was approved by the then Transportation manager back in Feb/2010.

    In July 2010, LRT Design and Construction staff expressed concerns about potential risks, including delays, due to splitting the CBTC contract. And imo that is the crux of the problem we face today.


    https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...t-history.aspx
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    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    The worst part of all that is the post only pays $105K/year.
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  11. #8511

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    Worst part is that they have to know how to use Gmail.
    It is an actual requirement on the job posting.
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  12. #8512

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    The worst part of all that is the post only pays $105K/year.
    ya no doubt on that. They want an engineer for 105k max a year, who could likely work just about anywhere else for more, and on a project like our botched LRT signalling, the poop to pay ratio just doesn't seem adequate

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    Likely this is the guy or gal that will figure it all out once Thales is fired and wobbled off the job. I think my autistic boy may know how to fix it. He's a genius at that kind of stuff. Lol. My suggestion is to match the old system of the capital line which has only had two events over all these years. Practically flawless. They will then work well and work well together. Newest technology isn't always the best technology. We have the proof of that. Keep things simple and running.

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    On the plus side, I saw more community spirit on the train the past couple days. Everybody talking amongst one another laughing at the gross incompetence of the city.

    And albeit I was rolling my eyes and snickering too this stuff is unacceptable. We pay a tonne of taxes in this city and that number keeps going higher for services that are supposed to be functional after billions are spent. If you wanna be a big city with big ambitions you have to be willing to build things right the first time and resist the urge of value engineering. Now this is the current admin's mess, is gonna cost the tax payers possibly hundreds of millions of dollars (between this and the intersection adjustments), and those people got canned for their monumental ignorance.

    I wouldn't be so upset if they hadn't rolled their eyes at me as a 1st year student voicing my objections about some of these things years ago. But they know better then the commoner!
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Likely this is the guy or gal that will figure it all out once Thales is fired and wobbled off the job. I think my autistic boy may know how to fix it. He's a genius at that kind of stuff. Lol. My suggestion is to match the old system of the capital line which has only had two events over all these years. Practically flawless. They will then work well and work well together. Newest technology isn't always the best technology. We have the proof of that. Keep things simple and running.
    I could be wrong, but I think part of the problem was the old signalling system worked well on a single line, but didn't mesh well with converging lines.

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    ^Except that signalling upgrades to the Capital Line were done while the Metro Line was still under construction to supposedly accommodate interlining and make the old and new signalling technologies compatible.

    According to the Journal story earlier this week, Thales latest excuse is that the technology they installed was designed for subways and skyways not for street level trains. Setting aside that the interlined portion is fully grade separated in the Downtown to University tunnel, why would they be allowed to install the wrong technology?

    There are many other street level systems that are extensively interlined. For example, Calgary where there two lines interline down 7th Avenue at 2 to 2.5 minute intervals. Or, Portland where three lines share the same set of tracks and signals east of their Downtown.

    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.

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    There ya go Thales Get going on tearing out the signalling equipment and installing the appropriate one for street level transit systems. Problem solved. $$$
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    ^ Its a little more complicated then that I'm afraid.

    I don't think Thales is entirely at fault here. It goes back before 2010 but does anyone know who the other bidders for the singling contract were?
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley
    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.


    I'm not sure that remains the case. A friend of mine was stuck on one of the avenues (either 51 or 54) on 111 street last week, with a green traffic light but the LRT barriers down. He took a picture, so there's evidence!

  20. #8520

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley
    Nor does this explain why the signalling problems affecting trains seem to be happening only on the Metro Line. For example, barriers not coming down in sync with approaching trains, or trains being sent down the wrong track.


    I'm not sure that remains the case. A friend of mine was stuck on one of the avenues (either 51 or 54) on 111 street last week, with a green traffic light but the LRT barriers down. He took a picture, so there's evidence!
    even rob ford could understand the concept of not running trains at grade... as you wait for those stupid barriers to raise think of your federal income dollars building the Eglinton line properly

  21. #8521

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up?
    The glitchy announcements has screwed me up, screwed my wife up and have screwed my kids up a few times in just the last year.The only thing worse than the LRT signalling is the frequent errors that the communication system makes (incorrect signage for destinations, incorrect station announcements, etc.). People rely on the LRT to get to work and to post-secondary classes. The fact that the city just lets it operate like this is an absolute disgrace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Also, have these announcement errors the past few days screwed any one up?
    The glitchy announcements has screwed me up, screwed my wife up and have screwed my kids up a few times in just the last year.The only thing worse than the LRT signalling is the frequent errors that the communication system makes (incorrect signage for destinations, incorrect station announcements, etc.). People rely on the LRT to get to work and to post-secondary classes. The fact that the city just lets it operate like this is an absolute disgrace.
    on the other hand, at least we're not reading local headlines like this:

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...0-b2892f9f2a62

    from wsdot's site, "Control points, sidings and turnouts were upgraded with state-of-the-art wayside systems -- improving on-time train performance by eliminating most signal failure delays." a quick tour of their site ( http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Rail/Projects.htm ) doesn't identify contractors or suppliers.
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  23. #8523

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    Right, let's compare a 80mph passenger train to a 30mph sloth of a LRT. I guess you could also say that at least the Metro LRT did not explode like the Hindenburg or sink like the Titanic...
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 18-12-2017 at 04:17 PM.
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  24. #8524
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    Terrible.
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    12 minutes late this morning after one of the cars “wouldn’t run” this morning.

    I vote we rename it the Good Intentions Line.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.

  27. #8527

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    Are they going to run more than 3-car consists on this line?

    These 3-car trains sometimes are so packed at peak hours, people have to wait on the platform for the next train. Not pleasant when the temperature was pushing -30C last week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Are they going to run more than 3-car consists on this line?

    These 3-car trains sometimes are so packed at peak hours, people have to wait on the platform for the next train. Not pleasant when the temperature was pushing -30C last week.
    Eventually. The NAIT station is band-aid engineering and design meant to be a temporary stop and it can only hold 3 cars. The rest can handle 5. And if we ever see this line functioning properly (I'm not sure we will), the trains will operate at twice the frequency we see right now.

    I wouldn't call what we have "operational".
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abruzzi Spur View Post
    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.
    Thank you. At least some one else has a clue.

    This is what I've been saying all along and provided sources to my posts, which went for the most part ignored. And still people are fixated with car length and platforms, yeesh.
    Last edited by envaneo; 19-01-2018 at 11:46 AM.
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    Is there any way to duplicate parts of the system? For example, the railway crossings could be triggered by the advancing train.
    Last edited by The_Cat; 19-01-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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    I'm not an expert but I doubt that would make a difference as long as the CBTC system is in place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Is there any way to duplicate parts of the system? For example, the railway crossings could be triggered by the advancing train.
    Yup, pretty easy to do, the NE line does that right now, they have sensors spaced a certain distance from the level crossing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abruzzi Spur View Post
    Ripping out Thales and replacing their system with a competitor's is not an option. A working CBTC that interacts with vehicle crossings does not exist on planet earth. This is why during the original bid stage, the other four vendors were disqualified as they truthfully said that as designed they could not meet all requirements. Thales thought they could figure it out and were awarded the contract. It boggles the mind that CoE didn't perform basic research to realize that what they were asking for did not yet exist.
    Thank you. At least some one else has a clue.

    This is what I've been saying all along and provided sources to my posts, which went for the most part ignored. And still people are fixated with car length and platforms, yeesh.
    Why should this be so difficult? The more the train control system knows about where the trains are and how fast they are going, the easier it should be to efficiently integrate the system with road crossings. That is just software. The problems stem from the train control system losing track of trains and going into some sort of safe mode, which is a major problem regardless of the presence of vehicle crossings.

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    Not really, the more systems you integrate, the more failure points.
    Imagine a simple system where the weight of the train physically pushes down on the track and with gears moves the crossing arms down. There are very few things can go wrong and they are all physical (gears breaking, and that sort of thing).
    Next like the north east line system you have a induction sensors that electrically trigger the crossing arms to go down, now you have electrical problems plus the potential for electrical problems.
    Next you have a similar system to above, computer controlled but independent of all parts of the system, still the detectors, and the crossing, now you have computer programming errors, electrical faults and still physical problems.
    Next you have totally integrated system similar to the NAIT line, where you have trains talking to a computer system, talking to each other, interacting with the sensors and crossings, you have increased the level of complexity massively, hence the huge number of potential errors possible.

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    ^ A more integrated system also offers the possibility of increased redundancy to compensate for the increased likelihood of a single-point failure.

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    ^ How integrated should the system be before it becomes a continuous make work project? The introduction of the CBTC system eliminated the one size fits all concept. According to some ETS managers I spoke with recently they said the CBTC system is the root cause for where we are today. At least that's what "Chrome dome" Mike told me.
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  37. #8537
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ How integrated should the system be before it becomes a continuous make work project? The introduction of the CBTC system eliminated the one size fits all concept. According to some ETS managers I spoke with recently they said the CBTC system is the root cause for where we are today. At least that's what "Chrome dome" Mike told me.
    It seems like it is already a continuous make work project.

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    I watched the train pull into NAIT with the crossing arms still up a couple days ago. The train was halfway past the arms when it came to an abrupt and immediate halt. I thought some kid was gonna smash their teeth!

    It’s really disappointing that Thales would deliver such a cheaply designed product, and that the city of Edmonton didn’t ask questions when the bids came in.

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    The bids that came in bowed out because they thought that they couldn't make a CBTC system work here. Although I'm not a engineer, Thales said they could make it work. Apparently the City had no further bids in the works other then Thales. It was either solicit for other bids (which could have taken more time) or go with Thales. IMO both parties are at fault here. On the surface both systems seem to be "working."
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    Time lapse of the Metro Line from NAIT to Century Park:


  41. #8541

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    I watched the train pull into NAIT with the crossing arms still up a couple days ago. The train was halfway past the arms when it came to an abrupt and immediate halt. I thought some kid was gonna smash their teeth!
    I've seen that happen a couple of times in the last year.

    The LRT in this city is a bad joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisvazquez7 View Post
    Time lapse of the Metro Line from NAIT to Century Park:

    Chris that is really cool! Did you give the operator a 6 pack to ride up front.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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  44. #8544
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    Thank you Chris. I enjoyed the ride.

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    Great video. So I thought the original idea was to have the Metro line to go back and forth between NAIT and Health Sciences. Now it seems like it goes from NAIT all the way to Century Park and vice versa.

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    ^ That's what I thought as well.

    Seems like I've seen this before.
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  47. #8547

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    According to the schedule, it runs from NAIT to Century Park from 5 am to 10 pm and from 5 am to 7 pm on Saturdays. All other times it stops at Health Sciences.

    http://webdocs.edmonton.ca/transit/r...o_Line_LRT.pdf

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    Thanks for clearing this up.
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    Witnessed another demonstration of the signaling absurdity this morning. I was passed by a southbound train while walking south on 105 St, approaching 107 Av. I figured I had particularly bad luck in my approach timing as the pedestrian crossing countdown reached zero just as I arrived at the intersection, but then instead of the the lights changing to green for 107 Av, all stayed red and the walk signal reappeared. I crossed 107 Av, then crossed 105 St as there was still no northbound train in sight when I reached the other side. I continued south on 105 St, and finally saw the northbound train rounding the corner onto 105 St when I was halfway to 106 Av. The train did not arrive at 107 Av until I arrived at 106 Av. At 2 m/s (which is probably a bit optimistic), it would have taken me 95 seconds to walk the 190 m from the NE corner of 107 Av and 105 St to the NW corner of 106 Av and 105 St. The intersection was red in all directions for that entire time, and would have been red for 107 Av for at least 30 seconds before that. If two trains arriving two minutes apart shut down all traffic movement, the system is completely unsuitable for a reasonable rush hour frequency of 10 to 12 trains per hour.

    I can't see how this is anything more than a poorly programmed software decision tree. There was plenty of time for a full light cycle between the arrival of the southbound train and the northbound train, even with the requisite 20 second intersection clearance time. Not triggering the cycle until the northbound train actually leaves MacEwan station would still provide plenty of safety margin. Just fix the code already.

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    ^ Heck, why not just use the existing Metro line and Gondolize <new word to my vocabulary everything from Glenrose station to Blatchford and beyond? No signaling issues.
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  51. #8551

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    OK a few points:

    a) When is the NAIT platform getting extended to 5 cars?
    b) Since the city talks of all LRT Expansion being "Urban Style" (tram/streetcar) does that mean the eventual extension of the Metro Line to St. Albert is going to completely lack gates and priority? Seems pretty stupid to sabotage a line that is already decently separated from traffic.
    c) As a hypothetical have they ever considered ordering 5 car articulated trains? I.e. one continuous walk through unit?

  52. #8552

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    Quote Originally Posted by reecemartin View Post
    OK a few points:

    a) When is the NAIT platform getting extended to 5 cars?
    When the station gets moved & rebuilt, sometime in the next 20 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by reecemartin View Post
    b) Since the city talks of all LRT Expansion being "Urban Style" (tram/streetcar) does that mean the eventual extension of the Metro Line to St. Albert is going to completely lack gates and priority? Seems pretty stupid to sabotage a line that is already decently separated from traffic.
    That refers to the new lines, not the Metro Line which is a spur of the Capital Line. The Capital & Metro lines will remain high-floor, separated from traffic.


    Quote Originally Posted by reecemartin View Post
    c) As a hypothetical have they ever considered ordering 5 car articulated trains? I.e. one continuous walk through unit?
    Nope, as they'd lose flexibility to mix & match or run the fully-articulated trains on the Metro Line until Blatchford is built out & the station moved/expanded as per A).
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  53. #8553

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by reecemartin View Post
    OK a few points:

    a) When is the NAIT platform getting extended to 5 cars?
    When the station gets moved & rebuilt, sometime in the next 20 years.
    Which depends when they get around to developing that section of Blatchford.

  54. #8554

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    reecemartin,
    Actually, a few years ago I do remember the guidelines for LRT being a more urban style for both low and high floor lines. This was back when the first leg of Metro Line was being built. I remember, for example, the plans for the Metro extension not having crossing arms and bells everywhere like Capital Line and the first part of the Metro Line, and more just running in it's own ROW, but going with the traffic lights sort of like Valley Line.

    The CoE website now is saying that the Metro Line extension will be a mix of urban and suburban styles.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...it/nw-lrt.aspx

    There were some renderings that were released a couple of months ago showing an example of a trenched station on 137 Ave., and musings about grade separation at busy intersections.

    It's still all in design phase, and we'll most likely see the Capital Line extended south over Anthony Henday Drive before we see any extension on Metro. The Blatchford development on the old City Centre Airport lands will be the first link in any extension with station built there, and the NAIT station built for 5-car trains. After that, there's a huge step in crossing Yellowhead Trail and the CN yard to the north.

    There is also on-going discussion about grade separating some of the first part of the line was built. There were options that the the city was looking at for Princess Elizabeth Avenue/106 St. There's also an awkward grade-level crossing at Kingsway Avenue and 111 ave that is causing a lot of congestion and slowing down the line that many would like to see grade separated as well.
    Last edited by Cumberland; 11-04-2018 at 10:10 AM.

  55. #8555

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    Changing the alignment just a few years after opening. Thats a huge failure of planning.

  56. #8556

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    Quote Originally Posted by reecemartin View Post
    Changing the alignment just a few years after opening. Thats a huge failure of planning.
    It may not be a very good plan, but it's always been the plan. It would have made no sense to build the permanent, 5 car station where it will eventually provide the most benefit, so they built the bare essentials where they could, hence the temporary, 3-car NAIT terminus station.
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  57. #8557

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    The fact that the temporary station was built of permanent materials is a planning mistake. Should have been Tie& ballast tracks with precast slabs on screw piles for the platform.

    The other big planning mistake was moving the station location at the last minute from south of Princess Elizabeth Ave to North for the sole purpose of making a political point abut the demise of the airport.
    There can only be one.

  58. #8558

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    I'm referring to changing the alignment and considering grade separating now, should have done it in the first place.

  59. #8559

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    Learning from past mistakes & not repeating them isn't the City Administration's strong point.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  60. #8560
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    Looks like there was an old LRT train running to NAIT:

    https://twitter.com/hi_its_kyle/stat...30547640025089
    Last edited by The_Cat; 15-04-2018 at 10:27 PM.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  61. #8561
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    I noticed that walking home the other day. First time I’ve ever seen it.

  62. #8562
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    First NB Train Saturday when I was at U of A was a Metro, so decided to take it all the way.

    What a freakin' embarrasment.

    Surely to Ghod, no one responsible for this clusterphuk is involved with the Valley line (not that it won't be an embarrasment too)
    ... gobsmacked

  63. #8563

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    And every passenger who takes that line when completed to St. Albert will have to take that 'clusterphuk' bottleneck with no improvement in frequency or speed.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  64. #8564

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    A thought I've been having, in the future if they want to increase M-Line Frequency, seems they could build a Northern Crosstown Line and then meet up with the Capital Line heading NorthEast No?

  65. #8565

    Default

    Branch off at Castle Downs and head a line East along 167 ave until you hit the Capital Line.

  66. #8566

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    One thing is that the Capital Line has a huge ROW in the Northeast. If you can redirect freight traffic you could easily fit some very interesting infrastructure in that space.

  67. #8567
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    Currently riding past Kingsway and I’m convinced getting a bike would be more time efficient getting to Nait from downtown. What a P.O.S.

  68. #8568

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    a slow jogger would be more time efficient

  69. #8569

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Currently riding past Kingsway and I’m convinced getting a bike would be more time efficient getting to Nait from downtown. What a P.O.S.
    Be respectful. We paid a lot of money for the P.O.S.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  70. #8570

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    And every passenger who takes that line when completed to St. Albert will have to take that 'clusterphuk' bottleneck with no improvement in frequency or speed.
    Yep. It's pretty much useless as it sits. I hate to say it, but I'd rather they just take it to Blatchford and leave it there. Save the money bridging YHT and CN. They'll just end up borking up traffic, emergency routes and bus routes if they do extend it. And the cost of any solutions to making the existing stub operational in any reasonable sense of the word will be in the billions. Why bother?

  71. #8571

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    I've gone through this area as a passenger on the LRT, as a driver, and as a pedestrian. There wasn't a single efficient or pleasing moment with any of those modes of transportation.

    What a gongshow. What they should do is shut down the line and run buses instead.

  72. #8572

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    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...st-approaching

    Deadline for Metro LRT to be fully up and running is end of this week. What will happen then?

  73. #8573

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    I bet nothing's going to happen.

  74. #8574

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    Agreed.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  75. #8575
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    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

  77. #8577

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    ^ we should get all $55M back
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  78. #8578

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    They should have just shortened the blocks in the tunnel from the start. I doubt the CBTC system was needed. Frankfurt has a system very similar to our's (downtown tunnels, surface running including at-grade crossings outside the core) and they can run interlined trains through their tunnels every 2.5 minutes with fixed block. Sometimes older, proven technology is the way to go.

    Would still clog up the PEA/106 and Kingsway/111 intersections, but probably not nearly as bad as it does now.

  79. #8579
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    Metro LRT update: City delivers Notice of Default to Thales
    May 1, 2018

    Today, the City of Edmonton issued Thales, the contractor of the Metro Line CBTC signalling system, a Notice of Default. Thales failed to meet an April 30, 2018, deadline for contract completion set by City Council. This begins the resolution process under the contract, which may end in termination.

    “Council has given us clear direction that continuing to wait for Thales to deliver on contractual obligations is not acceptable,” said Adam Laughlin, the Deputy City Manager of Integrated Infrastructure Services. “This is a legal step toward an optimal resolution which could still be months away.”

    Under the contract, Thales will have an opportunity to respond to the Notice of Default.

    “This is a process within the contract,” Laughlin said. “It is frustrating. We, along with Edmontonians, are frustrated. Today is an important step but it is not the final step.”

    City Council endorsed this course of action after receiving an in-private update. They also approved of Administration investigating alternative operations on the Metro Line, should that become necessary.

    The City awarded Thales the contract for the Metro signalling system in May 2011. The contract is worth $55 million.


    Media contact:
    Holly Budd
    Communications Manager
    Communications and Engagement
    780-221-1189
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  80. #8580
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Metro LRT update: City delivers Notice of Default to Thales
    May 1, 2018

    Today, the City of Edmonton issued Thales, the contractor of the Metro Line CBTC signalling system, a Notice of Default. Thales failed to meet an April 30, 2018, deadline for contract completion set by City Council. This begins the resolution process under the contract, which may end in termination.

    “Council has given us clear direction that continuing to wait for Thales to deliver on contractual obligations is not acceptable,” said Adam Laughlin, the Deputy City Manager of Integrated Infrastructure Services. “This is a legal step toward an optimal resolution which could still be months away.”

    Under the contract, Thales will have an opportunity to respond to the Notice of Default.

    “This is a process within the contract,” Laughlin said. “It is frustrating. We, along with Edmontonians, are frustrated. Today is an important step but it is not the final step.”

    City Council endorsed this course of action after receiving an in-private update. They also approved of Administration investigating alternative operations on the Metro Line, should that become necessary.

    The City awarded Thales the contract for the Metro signalling system in May 2011. The contract is worth $55 million.


    Media contact:
    Holly Budd
    Communications Manager
    Communications and Engagement
    780-221-1189
    soooooo...

    we signed a contract in 2011 to be completed in october 2013.

    we have continually set deadlines including yesterday's "line in the sand" for thales to complete "or else".

    we have withheld $22 million of the total $55 million contract.

    but we haven't actually told thales until today that they are considered to be in default and they now still have all of the remedies in the contract to resolve and/or dispute that position?

    why didn't we do that last month? or last year? or two years ago? or three years ago?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  81. #8581

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    I believe the COE lawyers were all over this for years and Thales were properly warned of through a default notice. Since they apparently have been incommunicado for a month or more and did not respond in time, the default terms have been ignored and therefore breached. Thales is in a lot of trouble.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 01-05-2018 at 03:14 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  82. #8582
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    I wonder how many of the deliverables have been completed. I’m sure the trains have been retrofitted with the CBTC technology. Is it also true that new wiring has been added in the tunnels?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  83. #8583
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Metro LRT update: City delivers Notice of Default to Thales
    May 1, 2018

    Today, the City of Edmonton issued Thales, the contractor of the Metro Line CBTC signalling system, a Notice of Default. Thales failed to meet an April 30, 2018, deadline for contract completion set by City Council. This begins the resolution process under the contract, which may end in termination.

    “Council has given us clear direction that continuing to wait for Thales to deliver on contractual obligations is not acceptable,” said Adam Laughlin, the Deputy City Manager of Integrated Infrastructure Services. “This is a legal step toward an optimal resolution which could still be months away.”

    Under the contract, Thales will have an opportunity to respond to the Notice of Default.

    “This is a process within the contract,” Laughlin said. “It is frustrating. We, along with Edmontonians, are frustrated. Today is an important step but it is not the final step.”

    City Council endorsed this course of action after receiving an in-private update. They also approved of Administration investigating alternative operations on the Metro Line, should that become necessary.

    The City awarded Thales the contract for the Metro signalling system in May 2011. The contract is worth $55 million.


    Media contact:
    Holly Budd
    Communications Manager
    Communications and Engagement
    780-221-1189
    soooooo...

    we signed a contract in 2011 to be completed in october 2013.

    we have continually set deadlines including yesterday's "line in the sand" for thales to complete "or else".

    we have withheld $22 million of the total $55 million contract.

    but we haven't actually told thales until today that they are considered to be in default and they now still have all of the remedies in the contract to resolve and/or dispute that position?

    why didn't we do that last month? or last year? or two years ago? or three years ago?
    Likely to keep them working on fixing the issue?

  84. #8584

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    "Thales must now respond within five business days with a new proposal to get the line running properly."

    So much for a line in the sand...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  85. #8585
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    "Thales must now respond within five business days with a new proposal to get the line running properly."

    So much for a line in the sand...
    Nope, just left with a line that congests traffic, moves slowly, and has never functioned properly. All for under a billion dollars.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  86. #8586

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    Of course nothing is any different after the dead line. City council knows they have no repercussions/accountability so who cares.

    People will continue to vote for the incompetence year after year.

  87. #8587

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    'Shovel ready' was the cry. Take the 'free money'! was the clamor.

    Someone pass me a shovel, I'll help you bury the stupid thing.

    Even an urban gondola would be a much better solution from DT to NAIT.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  88. #8588

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    Maybe build an elevated line right over top of the existing line. Once completed, run the cars on top and over all the roads.

  89. #8589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cumberland View Post
    They should have just shortened the blocks in the tunnel from the start. I doubt the CBTC system was needed. Frankfurt has a system very similar to our's (downtown tunnels, surface running including at-grade crossings outside the core) and they can run interlined trains through their tunnels every 2.5 minutes with fixed block. Sometimes older, proven technology is the way to go.
    I assume there would be additional costs to revert to fixed block signalling at this stage. There continues to be progress albeit painfully slow. I've recently seen the old U2 trains running on the Metro Line. Trains are now running at faster speeds in sections where the ROW design allows for it.

    The remaining issue is the inability to safely run trains at 2.5 minute intervals in the interlined portion of the Capital Line between Churchill and Health Sciences Stations. While I support the City taking the action it did, I'm still hoping the threat of legal action lights a fire under Thales to solve this remaining issue. Throwing out the CBTC signalling and replacing it with an older technology seems incredibly wasteful and perhaps short-sighted.

  90. #8590

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    Yeah, I saw a three car U2 consist last week too.

    Oh yeah, I agree. Trains have all been equipped, track signalling equipment and cable installed. It would be a massive expense to revert everything back now, and how long would it take? It is an option the city is considering though, it was mentioned by Laughlin yesterday.

    Either way it goes, they get the CBTC working or have to go back to fixed block, it'll be more time and $ invested in this line that was supposed to be up and running 4 years ago.

  91. #8591

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Maybe build an elevated line right over top of the existing line. Once completed, run the cars on top and over all the roads.
    Maybe pave over the tracks and run electric trolleys???
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  92. #8592

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Maybe build an elevated line right over top of the existing line. Once completed, run the cars on top and over all the roads.
    Maybe pave over the tracks and run electric trolleys???
    Bike lanes! Pave over and turn the tracks into bike lanes!

    Put a gondola overhead.

    Maybe I should send the city a bill for this solution to their long standing problem. Unfortunately I think they’ll prefer to make continued payments to their lawyers.
    Last edited by KC; 02-05-2018 at 11:56 PM.

  93. #8593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    'Shovel ready' was the cry. Take the 'free money'! was the clamor.

    Someone pass me a shovel, I'll help you bury the stupid thing.

    Even an urban gondola would be a much better solution from DT to NAIT.
    Ahh, I see you beat me to it. It might be a valid solution. Fewer better timed trains of trains skipping problematic stops with a gondola system to handle peak demand and other demands.

  94. #8594
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    Was there a formal response from Thales?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  95. #8595
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    ^^^^. Here's the latest that I could find from Thales
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...-thales-canada
    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

  96. #8596

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    Just give us another four or five years and we think we can make it do what we promised you it would do before construction started.

  97. #8597

    Default

    Thales has now opened up about some of the issues that have caused delays.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...lay-is-on-them

    Apparently, there were change orders from the city from the original contract of 2011, to the tune of $10 million. The design of the system was not finalized until January 2016. As well, retrofitting the U2 cars has been, um, very problematic.

  98. #8598
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    Is there any way to upgrade some of the components on the older cars?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  99. #8599
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    Thales Canada had three major challenges on the Metro LRT Line but only two were technical, a senior official said Friday during one of the first times the company has talked publicly about its contract in Edmonton.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/thales-official-breaks-silence-to-say-not-all-metro-line-lrt-delay-is-on-them
    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

  100. #8600
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    I would love to see the contract time adjustments for those Change Orders which increased the contract price by 20%. And the year delay for 3rd Party review is interesting as the City will also own that. Thales is “sharing” some of its concerns with the media to protect its global reputation and speak over the heads of the City PM function to illuminate City Council and the public in preparing for the next steps.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...lay-is-on-them

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