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Thread: Behaviour of Cops in Edmonton

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    Default Behaviour of Cops in Edmonton

    I'm curious how other people rate the behaviour and professionalism of EPS officers. First off, let me say though that I completely respect the tough job cops have, and that I certainly wouldn't like to deal with a lot of the things they have to.

    None the less, I've never been all too impressed with the behaviour of police officers in our city. Yesterday I was pulled over for a burnt out brake light on my car. (I didn't actually realize they still pulled people over for that, considering how many burnt out bulbs I see around the city - but there you go). It was one of the dual-filament bulbs, so the tail light was still working and I didn't noticed the brake light was gone. I'm rather fastidious about my car, so I was genuinely quite grateful that he let me know (I thanked him and told him I would fix it right away). And yet, he went on for a good 5 min about how I was a "danger on the road" and how I have to respect the rules and be more responsible, etc, etc. Just being a jerk for no real reason.

    I've (fortunately) never had any real run-ins with the law, but all my experiences with EPS at checkstops and on their patrols around Whyte have been quite poor. They've always been rude to me and other people, and just bullies overall.

    I've experienced numerous checkstops in Vancouver and the cops were always very friendly and pleasant. I was once pulled over in Calgary by a cop who thought my car was stolen, and even he was more pleasant then any police officer I've dealt with in Edmonton . I'm curious if I have just had bad luck, or if other people have thought this way about EPS. I have heard there's a lot of internal problems among the force, so I thought this might be symptomatic of that in some way.
    Last edited by halocore; 08-07-2012 at 04:07 AM.

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    As you mentioned , you had experienced numerous check stops in BC . These are typically funded by the Govt owned auto insurance company paying overtime rates to the police officers. This no doubt has some impact on the prevailing attitude. Also, these check stops are more frequent and the public is somewhat more used to them and probably have less of an Attitude than an alberta driver who feels more imposed upon. No doubt general attitudes get reflected back.

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    Happily car-free in central Edmonton so cannot comment on checkstops. However, my experiences with the EPS in general have been quite pleasant. I've needed to call the EPS while reporting criminal/suspicious activity and they have been always courteous and respectful. The 9-1-1 service is really really good.
    On the flip side if you call them to report disturbances of non-emergency nature, some times you never see any follow-up action (especially if it deals with homeless bums causing noise...... I guess the EPs just avoids dealing with them).

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    Nothing but professionalism and courtesy anytime I have had dealings with EPS members.

    Lets please keep in mind the types of people they typically are dealing with. Drunks, intoxicated persons high on crack, meth or whatever other substance they decided to ingest.

    Lets not forget the blue collar, red neck, unemployed, belligerent nature of several people in this city who are the frequent flyers with the EPS. Persons who have always hated police and authority, whether you are a cop or a teacher, those who would rather spit in your face or through feces from a cell door at a police officer, thus who would try to assault you or a cop to get away at all costs.

    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.

    Now I know there are those who are going to say "they can get help" or " those members shouldnt be on duty" follwing a tramatic incident. Well, I would retort this by saying that if the EPS took every operation member who experienced a traumatic incident off the street for even a week or 2after the incident, you would end up with sky high OT bills to the taxpayer and still not be able to fully staff a metro area of 1 million......

    Just a couple of thoughts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal76 View Post
    Happily car-free in central Edmonton so cannot comment on checkstops. However, my experiences with the EPS in general have been quite pleasant. I've needed to call the EPS while reporting criminal/suspicious activity and they have been always courteous and respectful. The 9-1-1 service is really really good.
    On the flip side if you call them to report disturbances of non-emergency nature, some times you never see any follow-up action (especially if it deals with homeless bums causing noise...... I guess the EPs just avoids dealing with them).
    I wouldn't say EPS avoids those kinds of calls but I would suggest that maybe not a lot can be done to fix that kind of problem? What can the cops really do to keep homeless people quiet? Give them noise bylaw tickets? Something tells me tickets wouldn't be much of a deterent for homeless people...

    Just a thought

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    Speaking for myself only I have to say quite poor. I have been pulled over and forced to identify myself many times in my own neighborhood for I can only assume my appearance and age. On these occasions I have been treated as if I was a guilty of a crime. Harassed, talked down to and belittled.

    If I am to share other stories, of harrasment, dentainments, beatings of people I know, many will say the stories are being made up, or embelished. There are others who say those "punks" that I know finally "got what they deserved". I dunno.

    In my opinion, poor.

    Cops is a job like a teacher, or a lawyer or a judge. You really should only enter that field if you of perfect moral character. Not just as a "job"
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    Professional, considerate and generally friendly.
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    Interesting. I was talking to my GF about this the other day and she happens to live in Calgary. I had just read the story about the cop who'd squeezed four (or five) rounds into a fleeing perp. (The one where the police dog was stabbled.) Even though in that case, I thought the cop may have been right, coming from Toronto, I read a LOT more in Edmonton about rogue cops and the department is a fifth the size of Toronto's. There seem to be far more incidents here. I asked her if that was the case with Calgary police; are there a lot of incidents with cop misconduct that hit the media? She didn't seem to think so and said that the Calgary police are pretty highly thought of.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that EPS changed their chief last year and I have heard stories of morale problems with the department. I'm pretty sure that Rod Knecht is an agent of change for the force and the city is looking for a much different style of leadership than Mike Boyd provided.
    Last edited by PJC; 09-07-2012 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJC
    I read a LOT more in Edmonton about rogue cops and the department is a fifth the size of Toronto's. There seem to be far more incidents here.
    Perception isn't necessarily reality. Toronto has had some of the worst cases of police corruption in Canada, like this one: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...ice-drug-squad

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    I have had a rainbow of interactions. Most often professional, usually not that courteous but business like, and sometimes rather intimidating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJC View Post
    Interesting. I was talking to my GF about this the other day and she happens to live in Calgary. I had just read the story about the cop who'd squeezed four (or five) rounds into a fleeing perp. (The one where the police dog was stabbled.) Even though in that case, I thought the cop may have been right, coming from Toronto, I read a LOT more in Edmonton about rogue cops and the department is a fifth the size of Toronto's. There seem to be far more incidents here. I asked her if that was the case with Calgary police; are there a lot of incidents with cop misconduct that hit the media? She didn't seem to think so and said that the Calgary police are pretty highly thought of.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that EPS changed their chief last year and I have heard stories of morale problems with the department. I'm pretty sure that Rod Knecht is an agent of change for the force and the city is looking for a much different style of leadership than Mike Boyd provided.
    Media will put all kinds of spins on stories just so they can sell a paper, that doesn't mean they're true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Speaking for myself only I have to say quite poor. I have been pulled over and forced to identify myself many times in my own neighborhood for I can only assume my appearance and age. On these occasions I have been treated as if I was a guilty of a crime. Harassed, talked down to and belittled.

    If I am to share other stories, of harrasment, dentainments, beatings of people I know, many will say the stories are being made up, or embelished. There are others who say those "punks" that I know finally "got what they deserved". I dunno.

    In my opinion, poor.

    Cops is a job like a teacher, or a lawyer or a judge. You really should only enter that field if you of perfect moral character. Not just as a "job"
    Komrade, it doesn't matter what neighbourhood you're in, you still have to follow the law. If you were wrongly detained you should seek council otherwise I can understand why people would say you are embellishing. A complaint isn't that legitimate when all you do is go on online forums and bad mouth law enforcement without taking official action.

  13. #13

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    Not bad in gerneral , but spare me the lecture when issuing the ticket.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    . A complaint isn't that legitimate when all you do is go on online forums and bad mouth law enforcement without taking official action.


    Did I make this thread trying to 'bad mouth' them? Did I use slander against them? give me a break
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve semchuk View Post
    Not bad in gerneral , but spare me the lecture when issuing the ticket.
    That's called a Negative Reinforcement. In your case it sounds like it may be more effective than the ticket itself.

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    Having lived in a few places...the EPS is one of the most professional and straight forward forces I've dealt with...

    ...some in the US...not so much...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Speaking for myself only I have to say quite poor. I have been pulled over and forced to identify myself many times in my own neighborhood for I can only assume my appearance and age. On these occasions I have been treated as if I was a guilty of a crime. Harassed, talked down to and belittled.
    Komrade,


    Police in Canada can stop any vehicle to:
    • Assess the sobriety of the driver;
    • Check for a proper licence and/or vehicle registration;
    • Assess the mechanical fitness of the vehicle.
    This legislation is from R. v. Ladouceur [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1257 which is the leading decision of the Supreme Court of Canada on the constitutionality of random police traffic checks. Justice Cory J. (writing for the majority) is quoted:

    "The random stop is rationally connected and carefully designed to achieve safety on the highways and impairs as little as possible the rights of the driver. It does not so severely trench on individual rights that the legislative objective is outweighed by the abridgement of the individual's rights. Indeed, stopping vehicles is the only way of checking a driver's licence and insurance, the mechanical fitness of a vehicle, and the sobriety of the driver."

    Try and do a little research next time before you start crying about being 'harassed'.

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    ^ Except that most people only get pulled over if they are breaking a traffic law, or as part of a checkstop in which every vehicle travelling past a given point stopped. A legitimate stop for one of the three reasons you mentioned will result in a traffic ticket or at least a warning.

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    I suppose harassed has a legal definition, but that's not how Komrade was using it.

    I think he meant it in the context of, having done nothing wrong, having committed no crime, he hasa been waylaid and treated rudely.

    And sadly, his is not the first such story that I've heard. Used to happen to my nephew all the time.

    I believe the term is profiling - really great for middle age white guys going through customs and immigration, sux big-time for someone of a demographic deemed more likely to commit an offense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rettro View Post

    Try and do a little research next time before you start crying about being 'harassed'.
    Keep talking out your ***. I dont drive at all.

    Im talking walking on foot in my neighborhood. Cops stop me and force me to identify myself. Multiple occasions. I call that harassment.
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    I had a fun one happen a couple nights back. Was picking someone up from the airport when an unmarked car (maybe a personal car with police blinkers) started tailgating me and flashing its red and blues. I figured I must have been speeding by accident (the limit is absurdly low at the airport) so I pulled over, but he just went past me, and rode up to the next car in front of me. That car pulled aside and the cop went past him.

    The other car and I both get to the entrance of the arrival area maybe 10 seconds later and see the cop car has triple parked to pick someone up, effectively blocking all traffic. He is standing outside of his car, just yaking with his buddies as they slowly, casually load their luggage into his car. He then looks in our direction, nods his head and waves at us while a line of cars starts to build up.

    The worst thing about this is that EIA has created a dedicated pickup zone that works really effectively if people don't triple park and block the entire arrivals area. My pickup was waiting at that zone and I was able to park curbside, load and take off in about 10 seconds. I said a few words to the EIA loading zone attendants about the cop and they said that that sort of thing happens regularly, but noone makes a fuss cause they have had instances where staff had been harassed by police after making complaints.

    I suppose in the big scheme of things, we should be thankful we aren't getting shaken down by corrupt cops in Brazil and the like. Our police power trips are more just annoying than anything.

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    ^Just because corruption is worse elsewhere doesn't mean that sort of highly unprofessional, bullying behavior is acceptable. It is particularly disturbing that the people who try to stop this kind of nonsense are being harassed.

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    I got a warning from some cops on Whyte Ave once because I darted across the street after the hand started flashing. They were cool about it though and didn't give me a ticket, but really? Do they pull over everyone who speeds up to get through amber lights, too? Never seen it happen.

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    My brother received a ticket for going through on an amber, so yes, they do pull people over. I don't know why so many people feel they can cross the street when the hand is flashing. The hand means "stop, don't cross." You're lucky you got off with a warning and not a ticket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rettro View Post

    Try and do a little research next time before you start crying about being 'harassed'.
    Keep talking out your ***. I dont drive at all.

    Im talking walking on foot in my neighborhood. Cops stop me and force me to identify myself. Multiple occasions. I call that harassment.
    Maybe you fit the description of a suspect they were looking for. Don't jump to conclusions.

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    power tripping unprofessional robo's.

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    Mixed bag, just like anything in life there are good and bad apples. So its not just restricted to the EPS. I'm sure every police jurisdiction is like this. I think its better to rate how a force deals with complains and issues when they come up.

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    Well I'm glad to see some people have had some better experiences then I have. I've either run into all the jerks here, or all the best cops in other cities . Again, I fully understand and can appreciate the crap EPS officers have to put up with. I'd probably be a jerk if I had to do it. And at the end of the day, it is the force's effectiveness that counts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    My brother received a ticket for going through on an amber, so yes, they do pull people over. I don't know why so many people feel they can cross the street when the hand is flashing. The hand means "stop, don't cross." You're lucky you got off with a warning and not a ticket.
    Personally, I've never seen a driver get a ticket for going through an amber light here in Edmonton. Anyway, not to get too off-topic, but what is the issue with "educated jaywalking"? I always look to make sure I'm not putting myself at risk (because it is always the pedestrian at risk, not the cars) and that I'm not holding up automobile traffic. If we're trying to make walking more attractive to people, allowing for jaywalking is one step forward in my opinion, especially in Edmonton where blocks are huge and the city is very car-oriented. I'm a driver, cyclist, and pedestrian, so I can see this from all perspectives. What cops should do is crack down on drivers who don't yield to pedestrians who have the right of way, which is a far bigger problem than jaywalkers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore View Post
    I'd probably be a jerk if I had to do it. And at the end of the day, it is the force's effectiveness that counts.
    I'm from UK and that country has 65 million people in a country roughly the size of your combined Great Lakes. There's a general tension in daily life when you're living in each other's pockets. However the Police there are general very fair and polite, despite deaing with a country in general decline and it's associated issues.

    In my 4 years of living here in Edmonton, i've been pulled 3 times, all for traffic offenses. The first time i got a warning, but ended up I had a good chat about golf in Scotland. Second time no conversation but generally an OK experience, thanks and goodbye. Third time last week, i had an ******* who shouted at me for not parking up quickly enough. I called him on it and spoke to him in a way that i would speak to a police officer back in UK - direct and asking him why he was being aggressive. When i did that he cooled off and told me he was sick of people driving trucks with no awareness of those around them. He was ex-Forces and you could see that side of the discipline coming out in the way he dealt with me at that particular time.

    I believe geographically Edmonton is 'out there' in the woods, and there is a definite toughness in the general population (to cope with 6 months of Winter ? ) I see it in the people here, all Canadians are polite but Edmonton has a hard edge that comes with what used to be a frontier town. Police have to be able to respond in kind when dealing with redneck persons ignorant of general social norms. They do though have choices about being an ******* or not... so i think what i'm saying is it comes down to the individual you get on the day and how crap his/her day has been. Would i want their job? No - therefore they will always have my respect - but don't be afraid to have it out with the cop who's being an ******* and tell him to correct the approach. You can't be arrested for expressing your view points, we're not in the USA

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    They're nice enough until you actually need them for something. Cops in this city (and in most cities) are absolutely useless unless someone's been murdered or you're speeding. I've had relatively limited need for police, but in pretty much every single instance, they were of no help and didn't seem to care whatsoever. I guess as a middle-class taxpayer, I'm only entitled to police response if I'm being stabbed or my wife is being raped, property crimes be damned.
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    Chmitz, what an over generalization and a load of BS. Please tell me how you can make an inaccurate sweeping statement like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Chmitz, what an over generalization and a load of BS. Please tell me how you can make an inaccurate sweeping statement like that.
    Interested in the reply too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Chmitz, what an over generalization and a load of BS. Please tell me how you can make an inaccurate sweeping statement like that.
    Have you been reading the site long?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Chmitz, what an over generalization and a load of BS. Please tell me how you can make an inaccurate sweeping statement like that.
    Basing it 100% on my interactions with the police. Nothing generalized about it. It's what I've personally witnessed. Nothing more, nothing less. If your experiences have been better, then you have had better results than I have.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    I don't think it's an over generalization at all.Example 5-7 police vehicles at speed trap;45min to 1hour response time to out of control party in neighbour hood.

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    The last winter before we moved out of our condo, we witnessed a distraught female in a skirt and tank top pounding on a door, screaming, across the alley. It was -30. After a few minutes a car pulled up and a couple guys got out and started dragging her to the car, while she fought kicking and screaming. We called the police. It took them about 20 minutes to arrive and haul the entire lot away for questioning. If not for an owner in our building pulling into the alley and blocking the car from leaving (major risk), they would have been gone. We were clear with the police that we were reporting a kidnapping in progress, and there was absolutely no sense of urgency on their part, despite the fact we explained a dozen times that this girl was probably also suffering massive frostbite.

    The cop on the phone mentioned "she's probably high". I'm curious to know what their other priorities were.

    That's an extreme example, but it's indicative of my average experience. Most of my interactions had to do with vandalism, and one hit and run, and all I ever get is a "fill out this form" response, even if we have evidence of some type. They don't investigate squat for the common taxpayer, and I get the impression that we inconvenience them when we ask, despite them existing specifically to serve us in that capacity. The blatant disdain I often get when I ask for help is appalling.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 02-08-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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    It is unfortunate you have had several bad experiences with EPS because there is a lot of good work done by the organization. Initial interactions are important and often leave lasting impressions, it's to bad you have had several negative ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post
    Nothing but professionalism and courtesy anytime I have had dealings with EPS members.

    Lets please keep in mind the types of people they typically are dealing with. Drunks, intoxicated persons high on crack, meth or whatever other substance they decided to ingest.

    Lets not forget the blue collar, red neck, unemployed, belligerent nature of several people in this city who are the frequent flyers with the EPS. Persons who have always hated police and authority, whether you are a cop or a teacher, those who would rather spit in your face or through feces from a cell door at a police officer, thus who would try to assault you or a cop to get away at all costs.

    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.

    Now I know there are those who are going to say "they can get help" or " those members shouldnt be on duty" follwing a tramatic incident. Well, I would retort this by saying that if the EPS took every operation member who experienced a traumatic incident off the street for even a week or 2after the incident, you would end up with sky high OT bills to the taxpayer and still not be able to fully staff a metro area of 1 million......

    Just a couple of thoughts
    I am just curious as to why you would include "blue collar" under a list of unlawful references being used to describe people that you think have run ins with the law. Just another example of assumptions being made about something or someone you know nothing about. *Annoying*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cal76 View Post
    Happily car-free in central Edmonton so cannot comment on checkstops. However, my experiences with the EPS in general have been quite pleasant. I've needed to call the EPS while reporting criminal/suspicious activity and they have been always courteous and respectful. The 9-1-1 service is really really good.
    On the flip side if you call them to report disturbances of non-emergency nature, some times you never see any follow-up action (especially if it deals with homeless bums causing noise...... I guess the EPs just avoids dealing with them).
    When I called 911 because of a hit-and-run it took the cops over 2 hours to show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post

    Lets not forget the blue collar, red neck, unemployed, belligerent nature of several people in this city who are the frequent flyers with the EPS. Persons who have always hated police and authority, whether you are a cop or a teacher, those who would rather spit in your face or through feces from a cell door at a police officer, thus who would try to assault you or a cop to get away at all costs.
    Careful skippy on the stereotypes...............Remember a certain MP who was caught drunk driving?
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    Edmonton Police...what can be said about them?? Two things.

    1. REACTIVE POLICING VS PROACTIVE POLICING
    --Edmonton police are a reactive force. They dont send enough patrol cars into neighbourhoods to show the people living there that "YES, the police are here and they care about your safety". They dont have enough foot patrols in the downtown area, or whyte avenue, or even at the various "town centres" throughout the new communities of edmonton. As well, they dont patrol the LRT stations or transit stations to show a presence making people feel safer and less likely to commit crimes.

    ---Further more, you always hear on the news/twitter/newpaper about how the police are concerned about speeders...IF they were concerned or cared wouldnt they be out setting up speed traps?!. Photo radar is a joke. It doesnt deter speeding. Not only do the photo radar vehicles standout like a sore thumb, and all the green light intersections are marked so speeders can slow down, but theres no punishment there. I get the ticket in the mail a month later long after I forgot I was even speeding and all I have to do is pay a little fine (or road random toll as i call it) and I go on my merry way.

    No, if the police truly cared about the speeding in edmonton they would install radar devices into every patrol car (Like the calgary police), they would employ more "ghost cars" that blend into traffic (like the calgary police), and they would setup Laser (not radar) speed traps not only in the usual places (gateway blvd, WGD/75street) but in the places where speeders seem to feel they can safely speed...school zones, residential streets, playground zones, etc (Like the calgary police).

    2. INTERPERSONAL SKILLS

    --Not everyone is a drug dealer, or a murderer, or do they deserve to be treated like a criminal, nor is it the role of the police to treat you this way until after you have been convicted by a judge. I believe its "Innocent until proven guilty". Yes, Im aware that when the police are involved, its not because the people who called them want to thank them for doing such a great job, but its usually to deal with the worst of the worst. Maybe if they treated the person they were dealing with, with a little bit of respect things would go a lot smoother.

  43. #43

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    ^Would agree 100%.

    The "hot spot" team in my old neighbourhood confirmed it. During a meeting with our condo board, even they admitted they were "all about the arrests". It wasn't until their new commanding officer changed tactics and wanted them to become more visible, engaged with the community, and friendly, that they saw crimes decrease. Arrests didn't stop crime. Rather being a friendly proactive presence in the community did.

    If only the entire EPS was like that.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    "Edmonton Police is strictly reactive" Do you have any idea how many different programs that EPS is involved in that are proactive?? Here is a small sample

    1. The School Resource Program
    2. The Zebra Child Protection Centre
    3. The Child at Risk Response Teams
    4. The Mental Health Teams
    5. The Neighbourhood Empowerment Teams
    6. The Neighbourhood Beat Programs
    7. The DARE program
    8. The High Risk Offender Unit with assist in the monitoring and supervision of high risk sexual and violent offenders
    This is only a small number of areas within the EPS that work in cooperation with other agencies to provide community based policing. There are many many more which I have not named. To say that EPS is strictly reactive is completely false.

    A combination of community presence, education and timely arrests are the most effective way to stop crime. If you are going to criticize an organization please look into the things that they are doing and then make your comments.

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    There was a brief period in my old neighborhood (107 Ave and 104 St) when the police started to simply drive their cruisers slowly up and down the various alley ways. It was wonderful. All the normal quarrels and bickering went away and I could actually sleep with my windows open. I daresay the officers did have things to do but it was at a much lower key: possibly telling a few people to cool it at a point they were starting their quarrel.

    Most of the time it was clearly about the arrests. But I don't actually enjoy the site of people getting herded and handcuffed especially when that happened as often as it did. Even though there was zero chance that I would ever be part of that. That does not lower the emotional temperature of a neighborhood like a constant "we're watching you" presence does.

    Eve

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    "Edmonton Police is strictly reactive" Do you have any idea how many different programs that EPS is involved in that are proactive?? Here is a small sample

    1. The School Resource Program
    2. The Zebra Child Protection Centre
    3. The Child at Risk Response Teams
    4. The Mental Health Teams
    5. The Neighbourhood Empowerment Teams
    6. The Neighbourhood Beat Programs
    7. The DARE program
    8. The High Risk Offender Unit with assist in the monitoring and supervision of high risk sexual and violent offenders
    This is only a small number of areas within the EPS that work in cooperation with other agencies to provide community based policing. There are many many more which I have not named. To say that EPS is strictly reactive is completely false.

    A combination of community presence, education and timely arrests are the most effective way to stop crime. If you are going to criticize an organization please look into the things that they are doing and then make your comments.
    They don't need 8 programs. What they need is a culture of proactive, community enforcement from top to bottom. These programs speak of a culture of arrests, with a few community programs. It should be the opposite.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  47. #47

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    DARE program is a joke. Its about lieing to kids. Thats ********. As soon as I was old enough to grow a brain I realized DARE was a lie. What did that teach me at a young age? Police will lie to you to get you to do what they want.

    I also echo GranaryMan comment:
    Maybe if they treated the person they were dealing with, with a little bit of respect things would go a lot smoother.
    100%. Be nice. Why be the walking sterotype of a powerhungry *******?
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  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    DARE program is a joke. Its about lieing to kids. Thats ********. As soon as I was old enough to grow a brain I realized DARE was a lie. What did that teach me at a young age? Police will lie to you to get you to do what they want.

    I also echo GranaryMan comment:
    Maybe if they treated the person they were dealing with, with a little bit of respect things would go a lot smoother.
    100%. Be nice. Why be the walking sterotype of a powerhungry *******?
    If I was a cop, I would want everyone on weed. Instead of responding to drunken brawls you'd get the odd 911 call about needing Doritos.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    these programs focus on enforcement? Wrong again. Regardless of what you think about a particular program, it is pro active. Perhaps you guys should put down the weed and start researching the organizations you are criticizing so that when you make an argument you can should somewhat intelligent.

  50. #50

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    Nice try Mr. Cop guy. I don't smoke weed and your grammar is terrible, which makes your "can should somewhat intelligent" comment a bit ironic
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  51. #51

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    Haha no doubt. I could write 10 paragraph paper full of sources of why/how the DARE program is a complete failure.

    Your response would be tl;dr or you would just say im wrong. Im not in the Internet to change Joe Blows opinion.
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  52. #52

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    I strongly feel that one of the largest failures of suburban sprawl development is the way it changes law enforcement. We simply cannot afford to have cops walking beats on every suburban block. If we built more dense, and in a more or less grid patter, cops could walk beats very easily and be able to get from one neighbourhood to another in a matter of minutes on foot. Can't get anywhere on foot in windy suburbs unless you run through yards and hop fences.

    Then, if those cops were friendly and engaged the communities they walked in, the general public would trust them and work with them, fostering better relations and letting the cops have direct access to the necessary info they need. "Mr. Officer, little Timmy has been terrorizing the neighbourhood on his bicycle, could you talk to him?". That could be the difference between that kid moving on to breaking windows, stealing candy bars, breaking into cars, etc., an escalating life of crime.

    Arresting criminals after they've become criminals is just treating a symptom. We need to focus much harder on crime prevention to begin with.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    DARE program is a joke. Its about lieing to kids. Thats ********. As soon as I was old enough to grow a brain I realized DARE was a lie. What did that teach me at a young age? Police will lie to you to get you to do what they want.

    I also echo GranaryMan comment:
    Maybe if they treated the person they were dealing with, with a little bit of respect things would go a lot smoother.
    100%. Be nice. Why be the walking sterotype of a powerhungry *******?
    If I was a cop, I would want everyone on weed. Instead of responding to drunken brawls you'd get the odd 911 call about needing Doritos.
    Unfortunately the police don't write the laws. Fancy that, want weed legalized? Stop blaming the cops.

  54. #54

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    I have never felt anything but professionalism in all my direct interactions with them.

    However, I have also witnessed at very close range a tasering of a delerict type who though certainly unwelcome on the street I lived in at the time (and watched from a balcony several floors up) had in the five minutes preceding his long and drawn out screams done nothing whatever remotely meriting such obvious pain.

    Which trumps everything else.

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    Although my grammar was not great in my last post, the facts speak for themselves. EPS has many many community based proactive initiatives and works extensively with community partners. You can criticize the organization about a lot of things but community involvement is not one of them. If you are going to make an argument please research what is being done and then make your assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I have never felt anything but professionalism in all my direct interactions with them.

    However, I have also witnessed at very close range a tasering of a delerict type who though certainly unwelcome on the street I lived in at the time (and watched from a balcony several floors up) had in the five minutes preceding his long and drawn out screams done nothing whatever remotely meriting such obvious pain.

    Which trumps everything else.
    In YOUR OPINION he did nothing to warrant the tasering. Unless you have some use of force training we are unaware of.

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    And your opinion he definitely needed the tasering. This is going to happen every time we say anything at all about the police service. "You're not an expert, so you don't know what you're seeing".

    I like the police service and think most of them do a good job. But there are bad apples out there.

    Eve

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    ^No, I have no opinion because I wasn't there. I just don't like people jumping to conclusions thinking they know better than a cop who was trained to deal with those types of situations.

    And yes I agree that there are bad cops out there but we need to stop assuming that all cops are bad.

  59. #59

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    I watched him from before the cops arrived until they dragged him (already whimpering) into the car.

    As I said, I saw nothing that in my opinion deserved tasering.

    I have no idea if it was bad apples or good. Police aren't apples anyway.

    But I heard the screams.

    And I refuse to be so perverted and morally degraded as to say he or anyone else deserved to be screaming like that.

  60. #60

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    Of course he did Ashetsen. If he didnt do anything wrong, the police wouldnt have been bothering him. Obviously.

    /sarcasm
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  61. #61
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    Of course - the accused (but not convicted) must have deserved it. Phaw.

    Is that like the native youth tasered not once, twice but three times while asleep in (an admittedly) stolen car? Mind you, he was acquitted by a provincial court judge who called the repeated tasering "cruel and unusual punishment," the sort of language normally reserved for (and I'll be nice here) Guantanamo Bay.

    BTW, the police officer in question was never charged criminally.

    This is troubling if for no other reason than:

    ASIRT executive director Clif Purvis said his investigation led to him to conclude there was a “reasonable suspicion” the police officers had committed a criminal offence, but when the charge went to the Crown in Calgary for consideration, prosecutors opted not to proceed with charges.
    Purvis admitted it doesn’t help confidence in the justice system to have the Crown and ASIRT disagree on whether charges should be laid, but he stood behind his part in the investigation.

    I'd say, doesn’t help confidence in the justice system .... is more likely to be further undermines faith in the justice system and of our police force.
    ... gobsmacked

  63. #63

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    Man I wish I could commit crimes and then opt out of being charged.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  64. #64

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    Last year when this story broke http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...831/story.html it was reported that Sobieh was using a meat hook in an altercation with another guy. The police got a call about this altercation and upon going to the premises would have took this into consideration. Sobieh denied he used a meat hook or any weapon. Later in the investigation the police did recover a tape showing what had happened outside the premises and indeed Sobieh did have a weapon (this tape was shown on T.V.). This did not help Sobieh's credibility going forward in the investigation. If it had not been for that outside surveillance tape there may not have been any prove Sobieh had a weapon. I am not condoning that the police should have whaled on him the way they did but he did not help himself by lying.
    Last edited by Gemini; 23-10-2012 at 03:09 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  65. #65

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    ^The people that investigated this outright just said charges should be laid, based exactly on all the evidence. There is no more to the story.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post
    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.
    nothing gives them the right to mistreat or bully people. which is what cops do, every single day, everywhere. its not tolerated in my job or other jobs, why should it be tolerated for cops.?

    http://www.aol.com/video/caught-on-t...6pLid%3D224037

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    When you give someone the right to carry a weapon - actually several weapons - and the right to detention, I don't think it too much to expect a certain level of restraint.

    This - and too many other cases involving EPS - doesn't meet that standard (IMHO).

    But worse, is no one seems to care less to stop that type of unacceptable behaviour.

    And from this law abiding citizen - frequent jaywalk aside - it does cause me to believe there is not one system of justice and that we are not all equal before the law.

    And I think, as ASIRT itself pointed to - that does dimish respect for our so-called system (singular) of justice.
    ... gobsmacked

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post
    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.
    nothing gives them the right to mistreat or bully people. which is what cops do, every single day, everywhere. its not tolerated in my job or other jobs, why should it be tolerated for cops.?

    http://www.aol.com/video/caught-on-t...6pLid%3D224037
    That's your opinion

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post
    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.
    nothing gives them the right to mistreat or bully people. which is what cops do, every single day, everywhere. its not tolerated in my job or other jobs, why should it be tolerated for cops.?

    http://www.aol.com/video/caught-on-t...6pLid%3D224037
    While I agree what happens to you throughout the day can affect your mood I think the police are (or should be) trained to treat each incident completely separately. They should not let what happened in the previous incident carry over to the next one. I have worked with people who have had tiffs at home and then proceed to come into work and take it out on people there. If a cop is feeling such intense stress that he/she feels the need to kick the cr*p out of everyone they come in contact with then maybe it is time to change careers or take a holiday.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mainly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liferanger View Post
    Im not saying this is everyone that is dealt with by police but I would suggest those who have a complaint about police ought to think or put into perspective what that member may have dealt with in the last hour, day or week of their job. Being assaulted, observing unimaginable occurrences against persons/children, deaths from homicide or traffic collisions all come to mind as life altering events that may effect that member for days, weeks, years to come.
    nothing gives them the right to mistreat or bully people. which is what cops do, every single day, everywhere. its not tolerated in my job or other jobs, why should it be tolerated for cops.?

    http://www.aol.com/video/caught-on-t...6pLid%3D224037
    While I agree what happens to you throughout the day can affect your mood I think the police are (or should be) trained to treat each incident completely separately. They should not let what happened in the previous incident carry over to the next one. I have worked with people who have had tiffs at home and then proceed to come into work and take it out on people there. If a cop is feeling such intense stress that he/she feels the need to kick the cr*p out of everyone they come in contact with then maybe it is time to change careers or take a holiday.
    They probably are trained for that. They are only human. We need robocop

  71. #71

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    2 years ago I was hit and run by a drunk driver while in my vehicle in the middle of an intersection. I called 911 immediately and proceeded to chase the guy. I was hung up on twice by 911 because I said hit and run(she must have thought it wasn't while i was driving). I was finally told to go report to a police station. What a joke! I was in pursuit of a drunk who smashed into my car and I was told to drive to a police station to report it. I couldn't make out the plate cause he was speeding away. I called off the chase soon thereafter because it was at too dangerous of speeds in residential. Why tell people to report drunk drivers when the police do nothing about it.

    Generally speaking, police abuse their power everywhere, Edmonton is no exception. I am sick and tired of police brutality. Society needs reform in this area. Police need to be held accountable for their actions, they are not above the law, they just serve society by upholding it. Police should be paid much more, require a university degree, and have less power. Otherwise start throwing these ******** into jail for beating and assaulting people.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehorseshoe View Post
    Police should be paid much more, require a university degree, and have less power. Otherwise start throwing these ******** into jail for beating and assaulting people.
    Not sure about the need for a degree. Less power for sure. As for money, they make great money. EPS starting salary during training is what, $55k and tops out at somewhere around $90k after 5 years? That's without any kind of promotion. Plus as a cop you can pull in all kinds of overtime and off-duty security to rake in the dough. I'm not sure what union pensions are like for officers, but I imagine it's better than your typical private-sector 50/50 split up to a small % of annual salary.

    Cops need to be held crazy higher standards to bring them off their powertrip. Paying them more than the well-above average salary they make would just stroke their above-the-law egos even more.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    I don't think taking away police power is going to fix anything. All it will do is make them unable to do their jobs properly. Better screening when hiring new recruits sounds like a better idea. If the person seems like they have an attitude problem then they shouldn't be a cop.

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    Here is an excellent example of the root of the problem:

    Sleeping with the boss and lying about it will get you fired: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Femal...263/story.html

    But a flagrant case of excessive use of force will get you a whole two weeks of unpaid vacation, 10 years after the fact: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...167/story.html
    Last edited by Titanium48; 02-11-2012 at 10:45 PM.

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    There definitely needs to be some consistency in the discipline handed out. 10 weeks unpaid is ridiculously short.

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Here is an excellent example of the root of the problem:

    Sleeping with the boss and lying about it will get you fired: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Femal...263/story.html

    But a flagrant case of excessive use of force will get you a whole two weeks of unpaid vacation, 10 years after the fact: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...167/story.html
    Not only should Mike Wasylyshen be FIRED, he should be CRIMINALLY CHARGED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehorseshoe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Here is an excellent example of the root of the problem:

    Sleeping with the boss and lying about it will get you fired: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Femal...263/story.html

    But a flagrant case of excessive use of force will get you a whole two weeks of unpaid vacation, 10 years after the fact: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...167/story.html
    Not only should Mike Wasylyshen be FIRED, he should be CRIMINALLY CHARGED!
    I agree but there can't be a charge without a complainant. The only exception I know of is domestic disputes.

  78. #78

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    My father was a WW II veteran and afterwards a constable all his life. He had the respect of the community and neighbourhood he served. The respect was mutual, the mechanic who lived across the lane, the baker up the street, etc. He went literally through hell in Europe but never abused his professional position, nor did he ever raise his voice to us or mum.

    His brother, my uncle also served in Europe and became a plumber. Imagine if he was called to go into someone's home and then started beating them on the head with a pipe wrench, because a person was passed out drunk in the washroom and he was unable to conduct the needed repairs. I doubt if he would still be employee and likely serious crown charges would follow swiftly.

    Wasylyshen is an absolute disgrace to the badge, his fellow constables, and the city in general. Crown charges should have been laid, employers can file a complaint against an employee combined with immediate dismissal.

    In this situation after the ruling he ought to resign of his own accord. I doubt that will ever happen.
    Last edited by Frank Wilson; 07-11-2012 at 09:58 PM.

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    He is a disgrace. He paints the whole service with one brush.

  80. #80

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    I don't know how you seem to attract all the grumpy officers there but I have only had one bad experience with an officer of the law ever. That was on New Years Eve a few years back when two patrolling officers at a public event on public property demanded I hand over my bag for a search. I did as I had nothing to hide but legally I didn't have to as there was no reason for suspicion of illegal activity.

    Oh well, I got over it because I have better things to do with my time than complain about it.

  81. #81

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    Is it the law in Edmonton that if a cop asks to search your vehicle, you can refuse? I've never been stopped by the police or even so much as gotten a ticket but I've always wondered about that. I did have 1 bad experience with an edmonton cop when I was walking home intoxicated, choosing to leave my vehicle at the location since I didn't want to drink and drive. Cop stopped me and tried to tell me he could arrest me for public intoxication or something which I thought was bizarre because I was walking completely quietly though maybe staggering a bit. It was just a weird experience.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by anduin View Post
    Is it the law in Edmonton that if a cop asks to search your vehicle, you can refuse? I've never been stopped by the police or even so much as gotten a ticket but I've always wondered about that. I did have 1 bad experience with an edmonton cop when I was walking home intoxicated, choosing to leave my vehicle at the location since I didn't want to drink and drive. Cop stopped me and tried to tell me he could arrest me for public intoxication or something which I thought was bizarre because I was walking completely quietly though maybe staggering a bit. It was just a weird experience.
    Yes, you can refuse. They need probable cause to search your vehicle. And if anything inside your vehicle is closed, I believe they need a warrant to open it - locked trunk, closed luggage, password protected cellphone, etc.

    Somewhat related story: I was pulled over (presumably for a perceived traffic violation) a few years ago on my way home from a sales trip out of town, and the officer noticed my suitcase in the back seat. He asked me to open it and show him what was inside. I told him no thanks. He mumbled something about watching my driving and told me I was free to go. *****.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    Because I don't want strangers rooting about in my stuff without cause. Because police aren't perfect so 'nothing to hide' can be a very subjective thing. Because sometimes there are things that are perfectly legal that you don't want revealed.

    We all have our private lives and they should remain that way unless there is cause.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    Because I'm not a subject I'm a citizen. Therefore I am not subject to the whims of the state.

  86. #86

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    usually when a cop asks you to search your vehicle, they already have probably cause. Probably cause can be erratic driving, smells of drugs or alcohol, nervousness...

    If you say no to a search, then they will search even harder.

  87. #87

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    from wiki answers:

    In the general context of the question, the answer is yes, however consult a Lawyer for specifics to your case.
    Basically, what makes a search legal in Canada is the existence of Probable Cause to believe either that a crime is in progress or that the search will turn up evidence pertinent to an investigation. There are occasions when probable cause can be deemed to exist, allowing a police officer to search a person, item or premises without a warrant, and there are occasions when an officer requires either consent or a warrant to search.

    Examples where police do not require a search warrant:
    -The police are looking for a missing woman and knock on your door as part of a neighborhood canvass. Visible over your shoulder, lying on the floor, is a woman.
    -During a traffic stop, a strong odor of marijuana is wafting from your car
    -A fleeing suspect runs into a home
    -There is an immediate danger to life or property if they are not permitted to conduct the search (such as a house on fire).


    Notes:
    -Unrelated evidence turned up while conducting a legal search is admissible. For example, if the police enter that home on fire looking for victims and find your grow-op, that evidence is admissible.
    -A mere refusal to consent to a search cannot be used to help establish probable cause. For example, if a police officer asks you to if he may look in your trunk, saying "no" does not, as a matter of law, give him probable cause to suspect you're hiding something. Without other grounds, he cannot search the trunk.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    usually when a cop asks you to search your vehicle, they already have probably cause. Probably cause can be erratic driving, smells of drugs or alcohol, nervousness...

    If you say no to a search, then they will search even harder.
    Being nervous is not probable cause. Being scared shitless of cops does not give them authority to illegally search you.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    gah I hate this argument. If that's the case, why not give up ALL of our rights and personal freedoms because, you know, most of us have nothing to hide. People that believe this fail to see the point of something called privacy.

  90. #90

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    A couple of years back I got pulled over on 97th. St. just south of 153rd. Ave. It was the first blizzard of the winter and the visibility was low, snow was blowing all over, it was about 12.45 am. and I was the only person out and about. I'm driving about 50 (it's 60 kph there) and the lights and siren went on. I pulled over and a female officer asks me to roll down the window, the male officer was walking around the vehicle. She said I seemed to be driving rather conservatively and I told her I was having a hard time finding the lane lines what with it being a full scale blizzard. As it happens I did have a brown paper bag on the passenger seat. The officer shone her light in the vehicle and asked me what was in the brown paper bag. I told her it was a packet of chocolate covered jujubes (which it was). Did not ask for my licence or insurance. Anyway, she said 'drive safely' and her and her partner took off. Never did figure out why I was stopped. Maybe they were killing time until their shift was over at 1 o'clock.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    gah I hate this argument. If that's the case, why not give up ALL of our rights and personal freedoms because, you know, most of us have nothing to hide. People that believe this fail to see the point of something called privacy.
    Fair enough. To each their own I guess. There is nothing wrong with politely declining a search.

  92. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    It's true. You don't need to let them search anything. But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    gah I hate this argument. If that's the case, why not give up ALL of our rights and personal freedoms because, you know, most of us have nothing to hide. People that believe this fail to see the point of something called privacy.
    Fair enough. To each their own I guess. There is nothing wrong with politely declining a search.
    Is there? I'd like to argue that politely declining to a search can and often results in roadside harassment for no good reason and likely in violation of the law. Police intimidation is a problem.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  93. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    But if you have nothing to hide why not...
    It's a bit naive, you'll likely be okay with this approach when dealing with the EPS or the RCMP. I would not do this in the US, nor with the SQ in Quebec, and especially Mexico or any other 2nd or 3rd world country. Mind you often in 2nd or 3rd world countries they don't even ask, due process does not exist. Always ask is there a problem and why.

  94. #94

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    I recently had to file a harassment complaint against someone who would not stop threatening and bothering me. The EPS were exceptionally understanding and thourough. I filed the complaint over the phone and then they visited my home to get a statement, etc. I did have to wait pretty much all day (and stay close to home) for them to show up; however since my case did not involve a physical threat I understood completely. The issue was dealt with literally immediately (the same day), along with an assurance that the case would not be closed for another 3 weeks to ensure the harassment had ended. The cop assigned to my case gave me his card and direct line. He has since followed up with me with a phone call to see how things were progressing.

    Not saying I haven't had more negative experiences with the EPS and such for things like traffic violations, etc. However this experience was much more serious in nature and the EPS exceeded my expectations on all accounts.

    Very glad to share this story!
    Last edited by oceanpearl; 25-02-2013 at 04:01 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Fair enough. To each their own I guess. There is nothing wrong with politely declining a search.
    It's not about politely declining a search, it's about powers that will drastically change. Canada is the great country it is because they can't do this. The next step, after being allowed to search your car, is for them to search your dwelling, without a warrant. At that point, they might as well put a camera in my livingroom. I mean ****, why not?

    And they've already pushed for not needing a warrant to spy.

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    At that point, they might as well put a camera in my livingroom. I mean ****, why not?
    Indeed, my family has nothing to hide, CCV in the living room, bedrooms, bathrooms . . . why not.

    Fortunately our legal system has quite a few checks and balances and Canadians should endeavour to keep them. Once you give-up a right or a law it never comes back.
    Last edited by Frank Wilson; 25-02-2013 at 11:56 PM.

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    That's not what I am saying but thanks for being completely ridiculous about the whole thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wilson View Post
    Once you give-up a right or a law it never comes back.
    If that was true we'd not have any rights or laws in our favour to begin with.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    At that point, they might as well put a camera in my livingroom. I mean ****, why not?
    Indeed, my family has nothing to hide, CCV in the living room, bedrooms, bathrooms . . . why not.

    Fortunately our legal system has quite a few checks and balances and Canadians should endeavour to keep them. Once you give-up a right or a law it never comes back.
    You sound like you think ALL police are just about ready to fly off the handle and that if it weren't for your rights they would be attacking innocents. Who do you think these people are? I think your view is skewed.

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    You sound like you think ALL police are just about ready to fly off the handle and that if it weren't for your rights they would be attacking innocents. Who do you think these people are? I think your view is skewed.
    Not at all, the vast majority are professionals trying to do their best. Our system is based on checks and balances just about at every step and for good reason. Certainly not the case in China, Brasil, Mexico and many other countries in the world. These rights and freedoms are a cornerstone in democracy, yet Brasil and Mexico are democratic the difference is we choose to uphold them with value. Of course our judicial system is not ideal and there are transgressions, we can moreover should try to improve.

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