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Thread: Scramble Crosswalk Intersections

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    Default Scramble Crosswalk Intersections

    Given the discussion on scramble crosswalk intersections on the NAIT LRT line, I thought that it may be useful to start a new thread.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I believe there are a few scramble intersections planned for Jasper Avenue as it gets fixed up.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Potential scramble crosswalk intersections:

    University of Alberta:

    84 Avenue and 112 Street
    87 Avenue and 111 Street
    87 Avenue and 112 Street
    87 Avenue and 114 Street
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    What is a scramble intersection ofr those of us who refuse to walk?

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    Potential downtown intersections:

    100 Avenue/108 Street
    102 Avenue/108 Street
    103 Avenue/108 Street
    102 Avenue/104 Street
    103 Avenue/104 Street
    102 Avenue/101 Street
    102 Avenue/99 Street
    104 Avenue/99 Street

    Arena District

    104 Avenue/104 Street
    103 Avenue/103 Street
    102 Avenue/103 Street
    103 Avenue/102 Street
    104 Avenue/102 Street
    104 Avenue/101 Street
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    A scramble intersection gives pedestrians the right of way allowing them to walk in all directions, including diagonally.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Ahh thanks......sounds scary.

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    I think there should be more uncontrolled mid block crosswalks like the one between the two Manulifes. Would cut down jaywalking.

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    When I first moved to Saskatoon we had them all over downtown. Was much fuss when they were cancelled. One of the radio type folks (actually a lawyer) predicted that pedestrians were going to be mowed down by their hundreds especially as simultaneously the rule was changed so people could turn on Red.

    I love them as a pedestrian. It makes crossing the street very tidy especially as so many crossings I want to make are double crossings. I think it makes it tidier for the cars also because they're not dealing with pedestrians during their part of the cycle.

    Eve

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I believe there are a few scramble intersections planned for Jasper Avenue as it gets fixed up.
    [email protected]

    99st
    105t
    108st

    If I recall.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbubble View Post
    I think there should be more uncontrolled mid block crosswalks like the one between the two Manulifes. Would cut down jaywalking.
    There's nothing wrong with jaywalking. It's actually statistically safer than legal crossing(because jaywalkers pay attention). It's usually more convenient for drivers, too, since there's no pedestrian signal to wait for.

    But if by "mid-block crossing" you mean "legalize jaywalking" then I'm with you.

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    True, as it's only Edmonton and Calgary that have, within the overall Traffic Bylaws, clauses prohibiting jay-walking. Per the Traffic Safety Act, which governs the rest of the province, jay-walking is perfectly legal.

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    for those still wondering what/how a scramble intersection works

    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

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    Great idea!
    youtube.com/BrothersGrim
    facebook.com/BrothersGrimMusic

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    That's a beautiful thing. I still think we should have a giant one of those instead of a winter garden.

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    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/techn...920/story.html

    July 27, 1959: Move to eliminate ‘scramble lights’ favours vehicles over pedestrians

    EDMONTON - The civic administration moved to eliminate scramble lights,which simultaneously stop all vehicular traffic to allow pedestrians to cross an intersection in all directions.

    Known also as scramble intersections, diagonal crossings and the more poetic Barnes dances (after American traffic engineer Harry Barnes), scramble lights were first used in North America in the late 1940s, although they later fell out of favour with traffic engineers in the U.S. for prioritizing the flow of pedestrians over vehicles.

    City council approved a recommendation from its bylaws committee authorizing commissioners to try out regular walk lights at 101A and 102nd avenues on 101st Street in place of the existing scramble lights. The main reason was to allow the synchronization of lights to speed the flow of vehicle traffic, particularly during rush hour.

    Scramble lights enable pedestrians to cross directly to the diagonally opposite corner without having to wait for the system of lights to pass through several changes. But over the years, there was a tendency to regard pedestrian traffic as something of secondary importance.

    If traffic kept growing beyond the limits of street space and congestion reappears, the only solution would be to ban motor traffic from certain areas in favour of pedestrian traffic. Some experiments with this treatment had been made in other cities, including Vancouver, which was one of the first municipalities in the world to use the concept at select locations.

    Today, New York has just one remaining Barnes dance, where Broadway meets Battery Place and State Street.

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    That picture brings back fond memories of the era in Saskatoon where most downtown intersections were scramble. It was great. During the pedestrian cycle (which was a decent length), walkers didn't have to worry about traffic. During the traffic cycles, cars didn't have to worry about banging into a last second pedestrian.

    There were a lot of campaigns when they brought an end to it predicting massive mortality which didn't come to pass. All the same, whenever I cross the street at my apartment (Whyte and 112th), I would like not to have all the power struggles with the cars turning right.

    Eve

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    ^Quite interesting how we're trending towards a movement to go back to prioritizing the pedestrian again.

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    Hopefully we will continue to see higher and higher priority to the pedestrian.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Looks like Jasper/100A Street and 105/105 at MacEwan could be ready by fall.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I didn't realize this until recently, but 102A Ave and 100 St has a pedestrian only cycle. Not really a scramble, because you can't cross diagonally, but still nice to have.

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    As Eve has mentioned above and with stories like this happening every once in awhile, I think certain locations along Whyte Avenue could use scramble crossings to fully separate vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

    You might lose 30seconds to a fully pedestrian phase, but the unimpeded right turn movement for cars will also mean less backups in the right lanes. That and along with a potential 76 avenue to alleviate some traffic, I think this idea should be brought forth to the Transportation Department.

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    ^
    Agreed. One spot in particular is 104 street and Whyte; traffic seems to always back up there, as only a few vehicles at a time can make a turn with the constant pedestrian traffic in all directions.

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    As a bonus you might be able to reduce the number of traffic lanes if right turning cars (and left in the case of 104st) are neither held up by pedestrians nor able to proceed on red.

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    Weren't like 3 intersections on Jasper Ave supposed to become scrambles after the Jasper save revitalization?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Weren't like 3 intersections on Jasper Ave supposed to become scrambles after the Jasper save revitalization?
    Yes, after. They've not completed two blocks yet. Still waiting for lamp posts. Sadly I don't think they've announced any upcoming projects making progress towards the intersections expected to become scrambles.

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    The scrambles are installed at Jasper Ave/RHW intersection, and they are awesome.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Yeah, but that one has basically always been that way, or at least it's always been treated that way.

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    But the difference now is that vehicle are stopped in all 4 directions for pedestrians.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    But the difference now is that vehicle are stopped in all 4 directions for pedestrians.
    If they actually stop. Someone turns right onto Jasper virtually every time I'm in the crosswalk, despite the No Right Turns On Red signs.

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    One intersection that might be ideal for a scramble crosswalk could be Princess Elizabeth Avenue and 106 Street. The scramble crosswalk could go on when the LRT Train is crossing both roads to NAIT.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    But the difference now is that vehicle are stopped in all 4 directions for pedestrians.
    If they actually stop. Someone turns right onto Jasper virtually every time I'm in the crosswalk, despite the No Right Turns On Red signs.
    I've noticed this too. They should install a red light cam there when any vehicle enters the intersection during the pedestrian scramble phase.

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    It's official - Edmontonians don't know how to use scramble crosswalk intersections.

    At the one at Jasper Ave and RHW, many pedestrians still cross at right angles instead of crossing diagonally. And many times they continue to cross against don't-walk signals, holding up vehicles leaving RHW that have the green signal.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I wonder if there should be a scramble crosswalk at Rogers Place (102 Street and 104 Avenue).
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    It's official - Edmontonians don't know how to use scramble crosswalk intersections.

    At the one at Jasper Ave and RHW, many pedestrians still cross at right angles instead of crossing diagonally. And many times they continue to cross against don't-walk signals, holding up vehicles leaving RHW that have the green signal.
    That's kind of a dumb scramble anyway though, as it barely has 3 separate corners. I think if it was at a real intersection (like the idea of one at Rogers) people would use it properly.
    Last edited by Alex.L; 24-06-2018 at 05:01 PM.

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    ^^absolutely.

    There are plans for scramble intersections at 104st/108st.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Any chance this can be permanent?

    https://twitter.com/DECLorg/status/1042879708898066432

    DECL‏ @DECLorg
    Check out the temporary scramble intersection at Jasper Avenue and 104 Street tomorrow only! #yegdt #yegcc #yegtraffic
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    how much of our tax money is being wasted on this one day only scramble someone needs to be fired

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    This should be used at 109th and Jasper and 101 and Jasper.

    From tonight:

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    I hope this intersection succeeds. It can be inconvenient to wait to cross the second time. I’d like to see Scramble Crosswalks around the Ice District.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Not only that, but if it's a red light for all cars then it's much safer for the pedestrians, as you won't have cars trying to turn into you while looking for a break in traffic. I hope this is successful and can be implemented on Whyte and Calgary Trail. That's such a busy pedestrian area that it becomes frustrating for cars trying to turn right (or left), and they often take stupid chances that could result in a collision. I've been nearly hit there 2 or 3 times, with my attention being the thing that saved me.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    News Flash

    There are scramble pedestrian crossings in other cities for years. It is really simple to set up and reprogram.

    Only in Edmonton it becomes a major study and expensive project.
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    Yes Mr. Montreal. We’ve been around. We all used them in Vegas 20 years ago. Been to Calgary recently, Vancouver and other cities and used them. We’re not just Edmonton bumpkins sir. We just want to make sure we get it right. We promise we will do our best to try and catch up to you and your city but forget the French. No way am I speaking French.

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    Anger much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Anger much?
    Not angry, just perplexed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Yes Mr. Montreal. We’ve been around. We all used them in Vegas 20 years ago. Been to Calgary recently, Vancouver and other cities and used them. We’re not just Edmonton bumpkins sir. We just want to make sure we get it right. We promise we will do our best to try and catch up to you and your city but forget the French. No way am I speaking French.
    LOL. Nicely said .

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    Be interesting to see how this works. DT traffic is royally screwed (this from someone who walks), and folks (like I) who could care less about walk / don't walk, do make right turns really difficult. Maybe this will help.

    And then again, as with so much fad-of-the-day, maybe it won't.

    Keeping an open mind.
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    I'm glad it's a year-long pilot. DECL led me to believe it's only for one day.
    Another one is opening up at Whyte and 105 St
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    105 st? Where Chapters is? I'd argue that 104 st would be so much better to test it on, as there are two busy roads there instead of just the one.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    I wonder if this would help the right and left turn traffic better. Pedestrians delay turning traffic, and traffic can be dangerous for pedestrians.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I hope nobody gets hurt..

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if this would help the right and left turn traffic better. Pedestrians delay turning traffic, and traffic can be dangerous for pedestrians.
    I think it should, as there shouldn't be any pedestrians walking across while the traffic is going, and then there wouldn't be any traffic trying to turn while the pedestrians are walking. As a frequent pedestrian in the area, I'd prefer waiting a little bit longer for a chance to walk than have to worry about traffic constantly trying to rush me while I'm walking across the street.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    What's the countdown time for the scramble signal? I find it annoying that green on Jasper lasts 3 minutes while green on 104 only lasts 30 seconds.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Now east-west traffic flows for 45 seconds, then north-south traffic gets 15 seconds. Then pedestrians get 30 seconds to cross.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Anyone cosistently using that , and what are the drivers' reaction to the change?
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Now east-west traffic flows for 45 seconds, then north-south traffic gets 15 seconds. Then pedestrians get 30 seconds to cross.
    Sounds alright I suppose, but the urbanistas are still not happy.

    https://twitter.com/IanOyeg/status/1043602554276331520

    Scrambles can work very well, but light timing needs to be balanced for cars and people; 104st might need a bit of tweaking in this regard for the Jasper duration.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 22-09-2018 at 08:21 PM.
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    Driving through it today, I still maintain that there are a few Edmontonians who don't know how to use scramble intersections.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Given that it's the first one in Edmonton since the 1950s, that's not surprising. Hope there weren't any you drove through!
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Turning left from 104 SB to Jasper EB on green, I just about smacked a couple of dimwits who were crossing against the Don't Cross sign.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Driving through it today, I still maintain that there are a few Edmontonians who don't know how to use scramble intersections.
    That is because they may have never seen this before; some people have never had the opportunity
    To even escape outside of this city.

    @PRT, this is why they do studies, so people become accustom to or learn to adapt both pedestrians and operators. We had this before 60 some years ago. It takes a couple tries to get back to the groove.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    A year???

    Sounds like a consultant slush fund especially when a few signs explaining the concept would do.

    You know, other people have traveled to other cities and once people realize that they are crossing kitty corner, the other sheep quickly learn.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-09-2018 at 04:50 PM.
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    Yes! If it was this particuliar spot then no, but were talking about multiple areas, so a year would allow them metrics of traffics, drivers and pedestrians coincident with each other. In a year one can see a lot of behaviors vs one month. If the screw ups of the LRT is not a lesson you have learned...
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    We figured out that out 2 years before the LRT was built.
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    So what were you complaining about then? Not everyone will come to downtown daily. The year is also for drivers to change their habits, so you start slow. Why do you think people have a hard time quitting smoking? It is more than just the nicotine content...
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    I fail to understand what's difficult with this. "Walking man," you walk. "Hand," you don't walk. Green light means drive, red light means stop. A painted crosswalk means you can cross there. WTF?
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Unfortunately commonsense today is not like yesterday. There are people that are not that bright. Your view is short sighted because you failed to see potential arguments of litigation from civilians to the city if a good shark lawyer is involved. This is why the city has to apply due diligence in ensuring this process. It is not a private home where one enters at their own risk. It is not just "ABC" but "A to Z".
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I fail to understand what's difficult with this. "Walking man," you walk. "Hand," you don't walk. Green light means drive, red light means stop. A painted crosswalk means you can cross there. WTF?
    Despite its simplicity, it's quite obvious that education will go a long long way.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Unfortunately commonsense today is not like yesterday. There are people that are not that bright. Your view is short sighted because you failed to see potential arguments of litigation from civilians to the city if a good shark lawyer is involved. This is why the city has to apply due diligence in ensuring this process. It is not a private home where one enters at their own risk. It is not just "ABC" but "A to Z".
    if it was "really about the lawyers", you'd think they would have fixed that expansion joint which is potentially a lot more dangerous to walk across than the intersection itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I fail to understand what's difficult with this. "Walking man," you walk. "Hand," you don't walk. Green light means drive, red light means stop. A painted crosswalk means you can cross there. WTF?
    Despite its simplicity, it's quite obvious that education will go a long long way.
    Reminds me when Bombardier staff were "training" ticket buyers when they opened the new monorail. The training with dozens of staff guiding and instructing passengers for a two week period was a joke that even staff found funny. The majority of riders in Vegas are tourists and all the "trained" riders leave town in a couple of days...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I fail to understand what's difficult with this. "Walking man," you walk. "Hand," you don't walk. Green light means drive, red light means stop. A painted crosswalk means you can cross there. WTF?
    Despite its simplicity, it's quite obvious that education will go a long long way.
    CoE has had ads on TV, social media, and even a few segments on the local news, but I'm not sure how you missed this with your infatuation with who's hosting them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if this would help the right and left turn traffic better. Pedestrians delay turning traffic, and traffic can be dangerous for pedestrians.
    Yeah, I'm curious as well. I would hope that if the intersection is converted to a scramble, that no pedestrian crossings are permitted during car phases to allow for turning traffic. That's been one of the biggest drawbacks since the bike lines were added, that a lot of the streets trying to turn on to Jasper have been severely backed up by the lack of opportunity for cars to turn, no turns on reds, and no through lanes unblocked by backed up turning traffic due to the reduction in lanes. It's not a huge deal, but it's been an adjustment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly
    Given that it's the first one in Edmonton since the 1950s, that's not surprising. Hope there weren't any you drove through!
    Well, there is one at 105 street and avenues, and has been there for over a year. But it's a bit out of the way, and even more importantly, totally superfluous given that Northbound traffic on 105th street is closed off and you can't continue East on 105 avenue. It's a T intersection with most of the vehicle traffic directions unavailable and little car or pedestrian traffic. But thank god it's a scramble!

    Quote Originally Posted by SDM
    Turning left from 104 SB to Jasper EB on green, I just about smacked a couple of dimwits who were crossing against the Don't Cross sign.


    If they want to make this actually work, they would be well served to at least patrol and hand out warnings to pedestrians jay-walking.

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    It’s too bad when we see that people aren’t willing to adapt to changes in traffic flow. There are many more pedestrians, bikes, in addition to cars. People shouldn’t be that stupid.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    Unfortunately commonsense today is not like yesterday. There are people that are not that bright. Your view is short sighted because you failed to see potential arguments of litigation from civilians to the city if a good shark lawyer is involved. This is why the city has to apply due diligence in ensuring this process. It is not a private home where one enters at their own risk. It is not just "ABC" but "A to Z".
    if it was "really about the lawyers", you'd think they would have fixed that expansion joint which is potentially a lot more dangerous to walk across than the intersection itself.
    Let's pray no one is hurt as I could see litigation- perhaps that thought is from my " American mentality " when I live their for 1/2 the year.
    Furthermore, I'm perplexed with people thinking it is an " ABC " and that is it. The average has trained their brains all their lives to regconized patterns and sudden changes don't fit into that equation. ultimately, due diligence has to be applied here especially in today's world when our occupation is to stare at the smartphones 24/7 even while crossing.

    I much rather we measure ten times and cut once.
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  75. #75

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    The scramble at Whyte on 105th is now operational.

    I was there for a grand total of one light cycle before I saw the first pickup turn right on red.

  76. #76

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    Glad to see. Of course vehicles will do that, it's new. Takes time to adjust.
    www.decl.org

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    I was there for one full cycle this morning and saw a pedestrian cross South when they had THE HAND, and a car turn right off Whyte heading North, then I crossed diagonally. That felt SO WEIRD to do!
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    The pilot scramble at 104st &Jasper was extended for how long? Just wondering because I am pretty sure its upset the flow of traffic causing a backup. i like the idea for sure when a pedestrian

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    Scramble crosswalks being installed at 104 Ave/104 St and 104 Ave/102 St.

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    You sure? I drove down 104 Ave about 30 minutes ago but didn't see a thing.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Yup, the signals are installed but still covered up. No lines painted on the road either.

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    I would imagine the intersections will be a gong show during the next few Rogers Place events.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    The ones on 104 ave will be a cluster f___. Especially for those exiting the parkades on 102 st. The combination of a short green time and no right turn on red will be a nightmare for 102 st. From what I’ve observed on Whyte, there’s still peds violating the Don’t Walk which makes for even more congestion for cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piglet View Post
    The pilot scramble at 104st &Jasper was extended for how long? Just wondering because I am pretty sure its upset the flow of traffic causing a backup. i like the idea for sure when a pedestrian
    as a pedestrian, i like it less and i both walk and drive that intersection regularly. for pedestrians only walking one way (ie east/west or north/south) you now often need to wait a full cycle instead of half - a pleasant extra minute in the summer, less so the rest of the year. it may benefit those wanting to cross on the diagonal but i’m not sure that’s really the majority. i also regularly see cars jump starting assuming the light is changing for them as well as the pedestrians as well as cars not coming to a full stop assuming the light is about to change in their direction and having to hit the brake hard when the notice their wrong assumption. they’re usually okay, the pedestrians and the small cars behind them less so... you see the the same thing at advance left turn signals (and don’t at late left turn signals).
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    It's almost like Edmonton isn't Shibuya. Weird!

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    Please convey these issues to 311, your Councillor or to me. I love scrambles if done right, but have reservations about my experiences with Jasper/104st at the moment.
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    On the plus side, it's better than closing 104ave completely after every game.
    There can only be one.

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    Scramble crossings are silly here. I guess they can work better in domains where there would be a natural need or want to cross diagonally. But pedestrian traffic on Jasper AVE is mostly East West and all of that walking is impeded substantially with the wait times. The 104th and Jasper scramble is a gong show. Feels like a 2min wait for the walk light. This is a DT. People are on a time table. heading back to work, appointment etc. Waiting 2mins for one walk sign is unacceptable. Pedestrians don't expect that long a wait time and nor should they be expected to. I thought we were trying to encourage walking.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    There's also a huge potential benefit to drivers in locations where there are a lot of pedestrians and more than just a few turning drivers.

    Scrambles might be an improvement for drivers leaving 104 or 104 in the afternoon or after a game as there won't be the non-stop stream of pedestrians to navigate when turning. and you don't need a right turn lane/bay on 104ave, which is nice.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    On the plus side, it's better than closing 104ave completely after every game.
    There's generally police directing traffic, and I doubt that will change or be eliminated by the scrambles.

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    This is Edmonton of less than 1 million. NOT Tokyo of 10's of millions. Just another slow order for vehicle traffic. Bravo...
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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    Only intersection in this city where a scramble would work is Whyte Ave and Gateway. Turning movements are hindered in all directions due to pedestrians as there are typically enough peds at a given cycle to delay movements.

    The one installed at Jasper and 104th is laughable.

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    Yeah, I'd be a big supporter of one at Whyte and Gateway, both as a pedestrian and as a driver.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Its changed my behavior/patterns in which I traverse thats for sure..

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Only intersection in this city where a scramble would work is Whyte Ave and Gateway. Turning movements are hindered in all directions due to pedestrians as there are typically enough peds at a given cycle to delay movements.

    The one installed at Jasper and 104th is laughable.
    it takes longer to wait through two light cycles than it used to take to walk on one direction with the traffic and then in the ninety degree direction and you’re forced to make the full wait even if your only crossing in one direction. i’m seeing more and more people simply ignore the don’t walk signal and walking with the traffic flow... my guess is the colder it gets the more that will increase.

    i also went through 104 avenue and 102 street this afternoon and saw much the same thing... can anyone spell s t u p i d?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    They're doing another scramble crosswalk pilot at 103/103 by month end. Not sure how this will fare, given the Ice District construction.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Could the 104 Av intersections be adaptively managed? Traditional sequencing would make more sense most of the time, but scramble might be better for periods immediately before and after events at Rogers Place.

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