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Thread: Downtown Retail | Discussion

  1. #9701
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Vancouver has real transit though, and parking is just a difficult in both centers. Not sure what IanO is getting at.

    It has density and ok transit. Point being that parking is NOT the reason big box are or are not here.
    Well tell that to box stories that do have parking!
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  2. #9702

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    So, Iano, what is the reason why businesses are having trouble downtown, and why aren't major retailers not opening downtown, if its not parking... Does downtown Edmonton not have the density? And if so, at what point (if ever) would downtown Edmonton have the density to support major retailers like big box stores, such as Costco, or Superstore, or an urban-like Walmart?
    Last edited by Medwards; 14-02-2018 at 11:00 AM.

  3. #9703

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    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    Yeah, Vancouver is bustling because there is so much parking....... *eyeroll*

    Downtown Edmonton is a million times better and busier than it was ten years ago. Having lived downtown for that span of time, I can attest to that.

    I agree, Been downtown allot for the Winspere or Citadel. always busy. Way better than 10 years ago. Vancouver is different in that there is more residential there. However I have friends that live in Kits and will not cross the bridges because parking is to hard to find or to expensive. We just need to have better quality retail. They may be more of a change next year as another 1500 people work in the core. Not including the extra residential.

  4. #9704

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    Yeah, Vancouver is bustling because there is so much parking....... *eyeroll*

    Downtown Edmonton is a million times better and busier than it was ten years ago. Having lived downtown for that span of time, I can attest to that.

    I agree, Been downtown allot for the Winspere or Citadel. always busy. Way better than 10 years ago. Vancouver is different in that there is more residential there. However I have friends that live in Kits and will not cross the bridges because parking is to hard to find or to expensive. We just need to have better quality retail. They may be more of a change next year as another 1500 people work in the core. Not including the extra residential.
    I have posted many times about the quality of stores in City Centre and complained about having to go to WEM or Kingsway or to the ends of the city to go to certain stores that could and should be downtown. The reality is I go to these stores less often than if they had a more convenient location and I go to City Centre less often, so it is a lose lose for both the mall and these stores. There are other people who apparently live right by City Centre that never go there. Some retailers are really missing the boat here.

  5. #9705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So, Iano, what is the reason why businesses are having trouble downtown, and why aren't major retailers not opening downtown, if its not parking... Does downtown Edmonton not have the density? And if so, at what point (if ever) would downtown Edmonton have the density to support major retailers like big box stores, such as Costco, or Superstore, or an urban-like Walmart?
    We don't have the density, yet. Keep in mind that the Shangri-La that Van is ONLY began to get larger/big box format stores 10-15yrs ago with 8-10x the population in the area.

    WEM has an impact on the city like few malls do, period.

    We need to continue to push rental and condos in the core along with ensuring that it remains the premier destination for business.

    Aside from that, we need more visitors and visitor spending in the core from hotel nights, attractions, destination retail and unique offerings.

    Heading in the right direction, more work to do.
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    ^Visitors might be a problem since Ed Tourism decided to close our downtown information centre (horribly advertised as the Welcome Centre, instead of ? ) Now if visitors or locals want to find out about stuff happening they have to be on twitter, instagram, or FB all the time or they will miss stuff. Funny how even the small European and Alberta towns have bustling VICs.
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  7. #9707

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So, Iano, what is the reason why businesses are having trouble downtown, and why aren't major retailers not opening downtown, if its not parking... Does downtown Edmonton not have the density? And if so, at what point (if ever) would downtown Edmonton have the density to support major retailers like big box stores, such as Costco, or Superstore, or an urban-like Walmart?
    We don't have the density, yet. Keep in mind that the Shangri-La that Van is ONLY began to get larger/big box format stores 10-15yrs ago with 8-10x the population in the area.

    WEM has an impact on the city like few malls do, period.

    We need to continue to push rental and condos in the core along with ensuring that it remains the premier destination for business.

    Aside from that, we need more visitors and visitor spending in the core from hotel nights, attractions, destination retail and unique offerings.

    Heading in the right direction, more work to do.
    I think Vancouver is an example that it is possible to have big box retailers downtown in an area with little or no parking. I think it is a mentality that when one tries and is successful, others soon follow so here we just have to find a brave retail pioneer.

    Yes, WEM has a big impact. I think when many large high profile retailers look at Edmonton, they only look at WEM and do not consider downtown. In other cities where there is no such high profile mall you often see these retailers in prominent downtown locations instead. For instance, take Simons Calgary location as an example of that.

  8. #9708

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So, Iano, what is the reason why businesses are having trouble downtown, and why aren't major retailers not opening downtown, if its not parking... Does downtown Edmonton not have the density? And if so, at what point (if ever) would downtown Edmonton have the density to support major retailers like big box stores, such as Costco, or Superstore, or an urban-like Walmart?
    There are more retailers downtown than there were 5 years ago so I see downtown retail becoming more successful, not less. There is lots of churn in retail even in the most dense cities in the world. I don't think a lack of parking is the biggest factor in the success of retail downtown. I have never had an issue finding parking downtown; free parking is not easy to find but I don't expect to park for free downtown anyway. Why should someone else subsidize the storage of my private vehicle? If anything there is too much parking downtown which is probably worse than too little parking. People will always find a way to get to a desirable place whether there is parking or not.

  9. #9709
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    Even as WEM was breaking ground the buzz around town was that WEM was going to kill downtown retail.
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  10. #9710

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Vancouver has real transit though, and parking is just a difficult in both centers. Not sure what IanO is getting at.
    truth. when I'm in vancouver and want to meet up with locals downtown, they'll typically transit downtown with no qualms.
    when I'm in Edmonton downtown and want others to join me, no one wants to drive downtown or take transit downtown.

    Albeit there's some misplaced misconception. Parking in our downtown is quite easy after hours on non-event nights. It's easier to park downtown on those nights than it is in some of the newer-tightly-packed suburbs imho...and a very frustrating process trying to visit anyone out there when there's a seasonal parking ban on.
    it's nice to put Vancouver as a comparison, but when you have 600k folks in the city of Vancouver itself in a small paradigm, it would be natural that downtown is busy. If it was laid out like Calgary or us, that intensity might have a different outcome. Vancouver and metro are limited with geographical expansion . Hence it's highrise boom. Edmonton and Calgary, have more strategic power centres for less population on land masses much larger than the entire van metro land mass combined.

  11. #9711
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Even as WEM was breaking ground the buzz around town was that WEM was going to kill downtown retail.
    True. Then everything you need is on the south side if you live there..no need to go downtown. If we didnt have season tickets to the citadel, I'd never go there to shop, or anything else..

  12. #9712
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    We all make choices. I have friends in Richmond Hill who rarely if ever go to Downtown Toronto, same goes for friends in POCO or Country Hills in Calgary.

    The point being is to continue to make Downtown a more inviting, exciting and vibrant destination.
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  13. #9713

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The point being is to continue to make Downtown a more inviting, exciting and vibrant destination.
    Why? If people are already living/working/playing content & well-serviced in their own non-central neighbourhoods why do we need to continue to artificially prop up Downtown?
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Why? If people are already living/working/playing content & well-serviced in their own non-central neighbourhoods why do we need to continue to artificially prop up Downtown?
    Asking honestly here: What sorts of things are we currently doing that you would consider to be "artificially prop(ping) up Downtown"?
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  15. #9715

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Asking honestly here: What sorts of things are we currently doing that you would consider to be "artificially prop(ping) up Downtown"?
    Besides the hundreds of millions in corporate welfare provided to maximize the profitability of a plutocrat?
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  16. #9716
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    Yes, besides that.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  17. #9717

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    Hmm

    Maybe moving the RAM downtown? Though I always considered the old location as essentially downtown.

  18. #9718
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    'As goes your Downtown, so goes your city'
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  19. #9719

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    Absolutely agreed. It's not an either or.
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  20. #9720

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    That’s all pretty fuzzy stuff. Just a platitude.

    Businesses will locate where they want to and I have yet to see any sort of deep factually supported discussion as to what will, and what will not, cost effectively attract and retain businesses.

    We can’t even figure out or even attempt discussions of what aspects of “the Alberta Advantage” worked and would be reproducible.

  21. #9721

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    ^No fuzzy at all. It's the motto of the political leadership and business.

    But attracting new retail Downtown will be a waiting game. We might not see the 'results' of Ice district and Valley LRT until a few years after they're completed.
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  22. #9722

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^No fuzzy at all. It's the motto of the political leadership and business.

    But attracting new retail Downtown will be a waiting game. We might not see the 'results' of Ice district and Valley LRT until a few years after they're completed.
    Yes, a fuzzy motto to justify whatever they want to justify. Same with lower taxes being a cure all. So called socialist BC did pretty well while Klein talked up Alberta’s lower taxes. Little with regard to business, growth, quality of life, etc is so simplistic.

  23. #9723

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^No fuzzy at all. It's the motto of the political leadership and business.

    But attracting new retail Downtown will be a waiting game. We might not see the 'results' of Ice district and Valley LRT until a few years after they're completed.
    Yes, a fuzzy motto to justify whatever they want to justify. Same with lower taxes being a cure all. So called socialist BC did pretty well while Klein talked up Alberta’s lower taxes. Little with regard to business, growth, quality of life, etc is so simplistic.

  24. #9724

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    One to read:

    Nice Downtowns: How Did They Get That Way? - The Atlantic
    By James Fallows

    https://www.theatlantic.com/national...anghai/390873/

  25. #9725

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    That’s all pretty fuzzy stuff. Just a platitude.

    Businesses will locate where they want to and I have yet to see any sort of deep factually supported discussion as to what will, and what will not, cost effectively attract and retain businesses.

    We can’t even figure out or even attempt discussions of what aspects of “the Alberta Advantage” worked and would be reproducible.
    Yes, it is true businesses will locate where they want to, but if you leave it at that it can become an argument to do nothing and I think this would be a rather defeatist approach. I think the whole point of this discussion is to find ways to encourage businesses to locate in areas that need revitalizing and could benefit from it. Now, I am not sure what cost effective means, that can mean different things to different people. You have to spend money to make money and empty lots or run down areas do not generate a lot of property tax revenue or economic activity for cities. My perspective of cost effective is being mindful of the cost and not just throwing a lot of money at the problem to try and fix it. I would say often less expensive options are also the better ones, but they still involve doing something, intelligently to attract and retain businesses.

    I think the Alberta Advantage was a bit of a mirage or a delusion. Yes, people do come and live here and work here for economic reasons - they can get a good job and in many way this is an affordable community. However, I don't think tax rates factor into peoples decisions quite as much as some think. Vancouver and Toronto for years have been fairly vibrant cities in Canada and in both places taxes are higher than here. Toronto is still on Amazon's short list and we are not, so it is not all about taxes.

  26. #9726
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    'As goes your Downtown, so goes your city'
    Well said, agree 100 percent

  27. #9727

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The point being is to continue to make Downtown a more inviting, exciting and vibrant destination.
    Why? If people are already living/working/playing content & well-serviced in their own non-central neighbourhoods why do we need to continue to artificially prop up Downtown?
    Why does WEM try to attract people? To keep an entity flowing. Very primitive commerce.
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  28. #9728

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The point being is to continue to make Downtown a more inviting, exciting and vibrant destination.
    Why? If people are already living/working/playing content & well-serviced in their own non-central neighbourhoods why do we need to continue to artificially prop up Downtown?
    Exactly. Especially since the DBA is fighting the new provincial lab in favour of keeping it downtown. Why support downtown when they don't support the rest of the city? I haven't been downtown since the story about the lab broke and have found that I really don't miss it. There's other theatres than the Citadel, for example.

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    'Why support downtown when they don't support the rest of the city?'

    1.1% of the population, 10% of the tax generation...
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  30. #9730

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    It's not like the 1.1% is responsible for 100% of the 10% though.
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    Coming soon!

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  32. #9732

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    'Why support downtown when they don't support the rest of the city?'

    1.1% of the population, 10% of the tax generation...
    What a bad representation. Downtown has the CBD that gets most of that 10% of the tax generation. Perhaps it's time for the CBD to share the office space with the rest of the city? The idea of centralized business districts died in the 90s. Edmonton is just slow to catch up. The rest of the world is seeing de-centralization, as technology solves the commuting issue.

    1.1 % of the population isn't paying 10% of the taxes in this city....

    My my my.

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    You might want to ask Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver about that. All have had significant booms in their CBDs as well as a residential boom due to the ever increasing demand for an urban lifestyle.
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  34. #9734

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    That's a nice attempt at deflecting away from your egregious misrepresentation of facts.
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    Point being, Downtown has done more than its fair share for our City and until recently has not had the reinvestment in it. Thankfully that has changed and we are developing a Downtown that is helping change the perception of our city and a place that people want to be again.
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  36. #9736

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Point being, Downtown has done more than its fair share for our City and until recently has not had the reinvestment in it.
    Who's the arbiter of fairness here? You? What's the criteria you're using? What cities do it "fairly"? What has Downtown done for the people who don't live, work, play, shop or care about Downtown?
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    You are smarter than that Noodles, come on now.
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  38. #9738

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    You are smarter than that Noodles, come on now.
    You've got to realize by now how low my tolerance is for your non-answers, but I'm guessing you don't actually have an answer to back up your platitudes & rhetoric. Hence the attempt to sound chummy when we're anything but.

    Thanks for making it abundantly clear you're talking outta your ***!
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  39. #9739

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Who's the arbiter of fairness here? You? What's the criteria you're using? What cities do it "fairly"? What has Downtown done for the people who don't live, work, play, shop or care about Downtown?
    To be fair, if you don't work, live, play (and no one is "shopping") downtown then downtown does nothing for you. Sometimes I don't even feel people that live downtown support downtown (i.e. Sobey's and Earth's General Store).

    As someone that works downtown, I don't like being downtown evenings/weekends. I don't like the bike lanes either.

    I do like the RAM moving downtown (and that's about it).

  40. #9740

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Who's the arbiter of fairness here? You? What's the criteria you're using? What cities do it "fairly"? What has Downtown done for the people who don't live, work, play, shop or care about Downtown?
    To be fair, if you don't work, live, play (and no one is "shopping") downtown then downtown does nothing for you. Sometimes I don't even feel people that live downtown support downtown (i.e. Sobey's and Earth's General Store).

    As someone that works downtown, I don't like being downtown evenings/weekends. I don't like the bike lanes either.

    I do like the RAM moving downtown (and that's about it).
    I don't think the location was right for Earth's General Store, but it might have worked somewhere else downtown. Sobey's was its own special problem. The people who run it managed to mess up Safeways which was a bit of gold mine so I think it was mostly the creator of its own problems. It's never a good sign when some prices were higher than the 7-11 across the street. Somehow we managed to have a very popular Woodwards Food Floor for years in City Centre. I think Sobey's should have followed that model and it might have been more successful.

  41. #9741

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Point being, Downtown has done more than its fair share for our City and until recently has not had the reinvestment in it. Thankfully that has changed and we are developing a Downtown that is helping change the perception of our city and a place that people want to be again.
    Yeah, the most expensive part of the LRT line, City Hall, the Library & it's current renovation, the citadel, the Art Gallery and all the rest of the stuff going on. Let's not mention the fancy sidewalks when people in other parts of the city have roads that are badly broken up, sidewalks and lights that are well past replacement time. Downtown has been positively ignored.

  42. #9742

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Who's the arbiter of fairness here? You? What's the criteria you're using? What cities do it "fairly"? What has Downtown done for the people who don't live, work, play, shop or care about Downtown?
    To be fair, if you don't work, live, play (and no one is "shopping") downtown then downtown does nothing for you. Sometimes I don't even feel people that live downtown support downtown (i.e. Sobey's and Earth's General Store).

    As someone that works downtown, I don't like being downtown evenings/weekends. I don't like the bike lanes either.

    I do like the RAM moving downtown (and that's about it).
    I don't think the location was right for Earth's General Store, but it might have worked somewhere else downtown. Sobey's was its own special problem. The people who run it managed to mess up Safeways which was a bit of gold mine so I think it was mostly the creator of its own problems. It's never a good sign when some prices were higher than the 7-11 across the street. Somehow we managed to have a very popular Woodwards Food Floor for years in City Centre. I think Sobey's should have followed that model and it might have been more successful.
    Years ago I worked in the Centennial Building (told you it was a long time ago) and took the bus home to King Edward Park. I'd stop in at Woodwards every couple of days to pick up some groceries. When that closed it was simply easier to shift all my shopping elsewhere. Now it's a parking lot. What a waste.

  43. #9743

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    To be fair, if you don't work, live, play (and no one is "shopping") downtown then downtown does nothing for you.


    That's exactly my point. The vast majority of Edmonton doesn't live, work or play Downtown, despite the best efforts of the city & decades of various financial incentives & stimuli. Yet we're told that Downtown doesn't get its fair share.



    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Sometimes I don't even feel people that live downtown support downtown (i.e. Sobey's and Earth's General Store).

    As someone that works downtown, I don't like being downtown evenings/weekends. I don't like the bike lanes either.

    I do like the RAM moving downtown (and that's about it).
    I live in Oliver, work on the south side & actively avoid going Downtown. It's easier to incorporate errands along the route of my never-gonna-be-possible-by-transit-or-bike commute & get them done at the end of the day than it ever will be to do them Downtown, either as a discrete trip or as part of my daily routine.
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    I work downtown, but I find that the things I need: mostly household goods, groceries, etc. just can't be found there. I haven't liked walking around downtown for the last several years because it's been covered in various types of hoarding and there are too many pedestrian detours to make it pleasant or even easy. When I do wind up downtown, I always have the "oh this is why I never come here!" moment or two.

    Most of my in-person shopping happens in Oliver, usually at London Drugs, because if I'm in the market for, say, a toaster, I can find a nice selection at various price points.

    I've gone to Southgate but the only store I buy actual stuff at is the Apple Store and that's even hit and miss. (If a sales droid really annoys me, I leave, and then usually order online).

    Groceries come from my previous address in Garneau because it is much easier to get my groceries home via bus/train than it is to shop at Save-On downtown.

    And then there's the campus.

    So mostly, even though I live right adjacent to downtown, I rarely see any more of downtown than my work place and the Central Station (which is connected to my work place). I wish it were different.

  45. #9745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    'Why support downtown when they don't support the rest of the city?'

    1.1% of the population, 10% of the tax generation...
    What a bad representation. Downtown has the CBD that gets most of that 10% of the tax generation. Perhaps it's time for the CBD to share the office space with the rest of the city? The idea of centralized business districts died in the 90s. Edmonton is just slow to catch up. The rest of the world is seeing de-centralization, as technology solves the commuting issue.

    1.1 % of the population isn't paying 10% of the taxes in this city....

    My my my.
    Simply incorrect. Technology makes proximity and density all the more important, not less. The vibrant centres become moreso while the rest wither. That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches. Basic economic calculations in the 21 century.

  46. #9746

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post

    Simply incorrect. Technology makes proximity and density all the more important, not less.
    How so? Technology enables people to do all the work they can do in the office from home. Right now, I'm working from home, and in just finished a meeting with colleagues in Calgary. Anything that I can do from my work computer can be done at home.

    The vibrant centres become moreso while the rest wither.
    ok? The entire city should be vibrant, and lifestyle, and etc.

    That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches.
    I never said we don't need a strong urban city. I'm not sure what sort of tangent you decided to fly off based on my post, but the need for Office HQs to be in the CBD is a thing of the past. That's why major corporation around the world are moving from tall office buildings to office campuses throughout a city.

    Basic economic calculations in the 21 century.
    sorry, I missed the part where you made any economic calculations, but a city that withers in one part, withers together. We need a strong city, not just a strong core. Certain people on this forum think that downtown has been neglected or not seen re-investment in the past compared to other parts of the city is just wrong.
    We need a strong city. A strong region. Strong communities including but not only, downtown.
    Last edited by Medwards; 16-02-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  47. #9747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post


    That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches.
    I never said we don't need a strong urban city. I'm not sure what sort of tangent you decided to fly off based on my post, but the need for Office HQs to be in the CBD is a thing of the past. That's why major corporation around the world are moving from tall office buildings to office campuses throughout a city.
    I think reality in most " have " cities in North America would suggest otherwise. San Francisco CBD is one of hottest real estate markets in the world right now because tech companies (including traditional silicon valley types like facebook) are opening offices in heart of DT SF because the current and next generation of employees they want to recruit want to live in vibrant, urban, downtown environments. Not suburban campuses. The same can be said about Toronto, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    sorry, I missed the part where you made any economic calculations, but a city that withers in one part, withers together. We need a strong city, not just a strong core. Certain people on this forum think that downtown has been neglected or not seen re-investment in the past compared to other parts of the city is just wrong.
    We need a strong city. A strong region. Strong communities including but not only, downtown.
    I don't agree. I think if you have to sacrifice some other areas to improve your downtown, overall you will be better off. Considering that downtown is judged internationally and by travellers.

    But that is not what is happening in YEG anyway - the whole city is improving.

  49. #9749

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    sorry, I missed the part where you made any economic calculations, but a city that withers in one part, withers together. We need a strong city, not just a strong core. Certain people on this forum think that downtown has been neglected or not seen re-investment in the past compared to other parts of the city is just wrong.
    We need a strong city. A strong region. Strong communities including but not only, downtown.
    I don't agree. I think if you have to sacrifice some other areas to improve your downtown, overall you will be better off. Considering that downtown is judged internationally and by travellers.

    But that is not what is happening in YEG anyway - the whole city is improving.
    Being well judged internationally and by travellers doesn’t mean that the residents are commensurately better off than in poorly judged cities. It might even be a contra-indicator on some issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post


    That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches.
    I never said we don't need a strong urban city. I'm not sure what sort of tangent you decided to fly off based on my post, but the need for Office HQs to be in the CBD is a thing of the past. That's why major corporation around the world are moving from tall office buildings to office campuses throughout a city.
    I think reality in most " have " cities in North America would suggest otherwise. San Francisco CBD is one of hottest real estate markets in the world right now because tech companies (including traditional silicon valley types like facebook) are opening offices in heart of DT SF because the current and next generation of employees they want to recruit want to live in vibrant, urban, downtown environments. Not suburban campuses. The same can be said about Toronto, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin...
    But hey, who wants actual insight.
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  51. #9751

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post


    That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches.
    I never said we don't need a strong urban city. I'm not sure what sort of tangent you decided to fly off based on my post, but the need for Office HQs to be in the CBD is a thing of the past. That's why major corporation around the world are moving from tall office buildings to office campuses throughout a city.
    I think reality in most " have " cities in North America would suggest otherwise. San Francisco CBD is one of hottest real estate markets in the world right now because tech companies (including traditional silicon valley types like facebook) are opening offices in heart of DT SF because the current and next generation of employees they want to recruit want to live in vibrant, urban, downtown environments. Not suburban campuses. The same can be said about Toronto, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin...
    Tech companies have traditionally had certain biased demographics.

  52. #9752

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    You are smarter than that Noodles, come on now.
    You've got to realize by now how low my tolerance is for your non-answers, but I'm guessing you don't actually have an answer to back up your platitudes & rhetoric. Hence the attempt to sound chummy when we're anything but.

    Thanks for making it abundantly clear you're talking outta your ***!
    There has been numerous economic reports that states his sentiments going back since the 90s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    'Why support downtown when they don't support the rest of the city?'

    1.1% of the population, 10% of the tax generation...
    What a bad representation. Downtown has the CBD that gets most of that 10% of the tax generation. Perhaps it's time for the CBD to share the office space with the rest of the city? The idea of centralized business districts died in the 90s. Edmonton is just slow to catch up. The rest of the world is seeing de-centralization, as technology solves the commuting issue.

    1.1 % of the population isn't paying 10% of the taxes in this city....

    My my my.
    Actually the trend is reversing. We're seeing more companies starting to flock back downtown as a means of attracting young talent. There's multiple examples where this is happening across North America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post


    That is the new reality we live in. Have and Have-Nots. To be a Have city, we need the strong urban core and lifestyle that attaches.
    I never said we don't need a strong urban city. I'm not sure what sort of tangent you decided to fly off based on my post, but the need for Office HQs to be in the CBD is a thing of the past. That's why major corporation around the world are moving from tall office buildings to office campuses throughout a city.
    I think reality in most " have " cities in North America would suggest otherwise. San Francisco CBD is one of hottest real estate markets in the world right now because tech companies (including traditional silicon valley types like facebook) are opening offices in heart of DT SF because the current and next generation of employees they want to recruit want to live in vibrant, urban, downtown environments. Not suburban campuses. The same can be said about Toronto, Vancouver, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin...
    Tech companies have traditionally had certain biased demographics.
    Its not just tech companies - insurance, banks, engineering. The list goes on.

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    An institution and local delight.


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  56. #9756

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    Tech companies started moving SF proper because of huge tax breaks offered by SF. The lower and middle class
    people that make up that city are being forced out because of this tech boom, and cant afforded to buy a place or pay the skyrocketing rental rates. Not sure we want to emulate this. And well some tech companies and startup moved to the city, most of them didnt move into their CBD, they moved to cheaper areas like the tenderloin area, which just exasperates the gentrification of the area and furthers the eviction of the poor and the working class

    meanwhile trends continue to show that office campus settings are still the way to go for most major tech firms in the bay area
    Last edited by Medwards; 19-02-2018 at 07:03 AM.

  57. #9757
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    ^and yet Google, Amazon among others are significantly expanding in DT Van?
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    ...and DT SF, Toronto, etc as already mentioned. I never suggested that Silicon Valley was on a downtrend but the reality is those companies are opening significant offices downtown (and not just in outlying districts but the traditional offices markets SOMA, financial district, etc) as they needed to offer this alternative to attract those employees. Perhaps Twitter took advantage of tax subsidies a few years ago but Facebook for example just signed one of the most expensive leases in DT SF. for Instagram folks. Anyways this isnt just about tech or the valley, the banks in Toronto for years were opening offices in the burbs but the past decade have been relocating those jobs back to downtown. They didn't do this because it was cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Tech companies started moving SF proper because of huge tax breaks offered by SF. The lower and middle class
    people that make up that city are being forced out because of this tech boom, and cant afforded to buy a place or pay the skyrocketing rental rates. Not sure we want to emulate this. And well some tech companies and startup moved to the city, most of them didnt move into their CBD, they moved to cheaper areas like the tenderloin area, which just exasperates the gentrification of the area and furthers the eviction of the poor and the working class

    meanwhile trends continue to show that office campus settings are still the way to go for most major tech firms in the bay area
    it's not only happening in san francisco... you're seeing tech expansion downtown in cities as expensive as new york and london.

    as for your contention that "trends show that office campus settings are still the way to go", how do you reconcile that with adobe's continued expansion in downtown san jose or google's recent announcement for a downtown home for 15-20,000 employees in downtown san jose?

    i think the disconnect might be your assumption that "campuses" are singularly suburban when the term applies equally to downtown business locations, just as it applies equally to downtown university locations. the descriptor is one of use and organization, not location.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The point being is to continue to make Downtown a more inviting, exciting and vibrant destination.
    Why? If people are already living/working/playing content & well-serviced in their own non-central neighbourhoods why do we need to continue to artificially prop up Downtown?
    Good point noodle. I'm content here in Clareview. Everything is one bus/lrt away. Almost all our amenities are nearby and within easy walking distance. Why would i want to live downtown, other then its closer to work?
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    In fact some businesses are even moving out of downtown. My wife works for Pizza 73, been in the call centre there for almost 10 yeas now. In May or June Pizza/pizza is moving by the Victoria soccer club area. Its not a tech company but businesses are moving to more affordable areas of the city like the industrial zones. Two years ago Long & McQuade moved out of the Mothers music location to 137th West of Saint Albert Trail. Now that Axe music will be gone at the end of May, I don't see Long & McQuade in their current downtown location there for long. That's just a few examples.
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    Pizza 73 was new ownership, direction, combining it with a warehouse/facility and proximity to the owner I am told.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Pizza 73 was new ownership, direction, combining it with a warehouse/facility and proximity to the owner I am told.
    That's old news to me & mine, but I appreciate the reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Pizza 73 was new ownership, direction, combining it with a warehouse/facility and proximity to the owner I am told.
    That's old news to me & mine, but I appreciate the reply.
    Owner is now “Pizza Pizza” located in Toronto .... not Edmonton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Tech companies started moving SF proper because of huge tax breaks offered by SF. The lower and middle class
    people that make up that city are being forced out because of this tech boom, and cant afforded to buy a place or pay the skyrocketing rental rates. Not sure we want to emulate this. And well some tech companies and startup moved to the city, most of them didnt move into their CBD, they moved to cheaper areas like the tenderloin area, which just exasperates the gentrification of the area and furthers the eviction of the poor and the working class

    meanwhile trends continue to show that office campus settings are still the way to go for most major tech firms in the bay area
    I have posted these videos before about the benefits of agglomeration I take it you did not watch them. https://youtu.be/DIpakXL6F6I https://youtu.be/EpUNIKB-WaU
    most businesses want to be as close to the city as possible and are willing to spend a fortune to acquire land needed to build their campus style buildings with large floor plates. They do not locate at the far reaches of the Metropolitan line in Amersham or the end of the District line in Upminster where land is more plentiful and relatively cheap. Facebook in Batterrsea. https://youtu.be/kCvZ9a-yWzk
    Bloomberg have gone to great lengths to stay in the city, colloquialism for CBD in London.
    https://youtu.be/yCRh9NnDcSk
    google in London and Toronto. https://youtu.be/L_oBYdjuQ5E https://youtu.be/Y5QDo41YXpI
    the myth of the benefits of decentralization have long been dispelled.
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  66. #9766

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    It's not even decentralization - its the needing next to no office space at all. Work From Home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    It's not even decentralization - its the needing next to no office space at all. Work From Home.
    7 Studies That Prove People Work Better in Teams

    After all, when people work together towards a common goal, they can combine their skills, solve complex problems more efficiently, and strengthen their commitment to a positive outcome.
    http://blog.crossover.com/7-studies-...s-productivity
    Think about it. How could anyone benefit from your brilliance if you all work in silos?
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Pizza 73 was new ownership, direction, combining it with a warehouse/facility and proximity to the owner I am told.
    That's old news to me & mine, but I appreciate the reply.
    Owner is now “Pizza Pizza” located in Toronto .... not Edmonton.
    Um, gosh, wow My wife has been with the company for abt 10 years here in Edmonton, its old news mate.
    Last edited by envaneo; 19-02-2018 at 07:02 PM.
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  69. #9769

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    It's not even decentralization - its the needing next to no office space at all. Work From Home.
    7 Studies That Prove People Work Better in Teams

    After all, when people work together towards a common goal, they can combine their skills, solve complex problems more efficiently, and strengthen their commitment to a positive outcome.
    http://blog.crossover.com/7-studies-...s-productivity
    Think about it. How could anyone benefit from your brilliance if you all work in silos?
    You don't need to be in the same office space to be on a team. Half my team is in Calgary. We work well together through technology. Your link doesn't talk about working from home at all, or the need to be in the same office space to be successfully on team. nice try, but no cigar.

  70. #9770
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    Try this cigar.
    A European retail bank that hired Humanyze to analyze its office layout, for instance, found that sales teams that spent time interacting in person outperformed those who worked remotely. That appears to contradict an often-cited 2014 study by Stanford researchers that looked at how working from home impacted employees at a Chinese travel agent’s call center. The study found that employees at home were on average 13% more productive, making more phone calls and spending more time on the phone.
    But the circumstances of the two workspaces were very different. Members of the sales team, Waber hypothesizes, benefit from learning how others do the job better. In-person, an improvement one person makes is more likely to be shared with others.
    The call center employees, meanwhile, had a job that typically doesn’t involve iterating on new ideas or working in teams.
    https://qz.com/1032085/is-working-fr...re-productive/
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  71. #9771

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    In news of downtown with the lowercase d, for better or worse the vacant lot on southwest corner of 107 avenue and 109 street has been replaced with a freshly built 7-11. I saw it was open when I passed it on the bus, but haven't stopped by.

  72. #9772

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Try this cigar.
    A European retail bank that hired Humanyze to analyze its office layout, for instance, found that sales teams that spent time interacting in person outperformed those who worked remotely. That appears to contradict an often-cited 2014 study by Stanford researchers that looked at how working from home impacted employees at a Chinese travel agent’s call center. The study found that employees at home were on average 13% more productive, making more phone calls and spending more time on the phone.
    But the circumstances of the two workspaces were very different. Members of the sales team, Waber hypothesizes, benefit from learning how others do the job better. In-person, an improvement one person makes is more likely to be shared with others.
    The call center employees, meanwhile, had a job that typically doesn’t involve iterating on new ideas or working in teams.
    https://qz.com/1032085/is-working-fr...re-productive/
    Yes, but these offices don't need to be in the CBD. With technology and the continuing trend to decentralize, the need for offices to cluster in the center of the city is dying breed.

  73. #9773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    In news of downtown with the lowercase d, for better or worse the vacant lot on southwest corner of 107 avenue and 109 street has been replaced with a freshly built 7-11. I saw it was open when I passed it on the bus, but haven't stopped by.

    Did you notice if it has a gas bar or is it just a typical 7-11 convenience store ?

  74. #9774

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    Pretty sure no gas bar.

    That site was a 7-11 that was torn down something like 10 years ago. I don't recall if that one had a gas bar.
    There can only be one.

  75. #9775
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    Yeah, originally it did have gas pumps - that's why it's such a big lot.

    Later they were taken out and it was just a 7-11 store (...).
    Last edited by RichardS; 22-02-2018 at 11:44 AM. Reason: removed unnecessary remarks

  76. #9776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    In news of downtown with the lowercase d, for better or worse the vacant lot on southwest corner of 107 avenue and 109 street has been replaced with a freshly built 7-11. I saw it was open when I passed it on the bus, but haven't stopped by.

    Did you notice if it has a gas bar or is it just a typical 7-11 convenience store ?
    No gas bar visible in my brief passing of it. The building itself has a brick-looking fascia, and actually doesn't look too bad. The building butts right up to the sidewalk on the street corner, with a small parking lot on the south side.

  77. #9777

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    https://goo.gl/maps/YvcnY2jrbmJ2

    The corner in question & T_D is right, used to be a gas bar & convenience store.
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  78. #9778

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    That new 7-11 sprouted up overnight - building went up real fast.

    Unfortunately, it's quite ugly too

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    I lived 1 block from there when it was torn down in 03 or 04. It was there and open one day, then literally 2 days later it was completely torn down and hauled away. Definitely had a gas bar, and certainly had an interesting clientele.

  80. #9780

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Yeah, originally it did have gas pumps - that's why it's such a big lot.

    Later they were taken out and it was just a 7-11 store (...).
    Setting aside your comment about drug use, the demographics of the neighbourhood must have changed since you were in the area. The area is now home to many Canadians with roots in Africa. There are a couple of small grocery stores, some specialty shops, and a couple of restaurants that cater to the Afro-Canadian community.

    Its interesting that small grocery stores can thrive in Queen Mary Park, while no one seems to be able to get it right in capital D Downtown proper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    In news of downtown with the lowercase d, for better or worse the vacant lot on southwest corner of 107 avenue and 109 street has been replaced with a freshly built 7-11. I saw it was open when I passed it on the bus, but haven't stopped by.
    Last time i was on the #3 I noticed a sign. Is it a full service 7-11 like a Petro Can?
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  82. #9782
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    Definitely no gas bar. And disappointing that the lot wasn't put to a more intensive, mixed-use. But being that it's an el-cheapo pad site, it can easily be redeveloped in the future. I suppose the one positive is that it fronts the street and has parking in behind. And yes, that area from about 112th street East towards 97th along 107th avenue does have a ton of small, independent groceries, shops and the like. Definitely a "Little Africa" kind of area.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 21-02-2018 at 11:33 AM.

  83. #9783
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    Well the 7-11 on 109th isn't a gas bar either. Maybe because of the pc up the street.
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  84. #9784

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Well the 7-11 on 109th isn't a gas bar either. Maybe because of the pc up the street.
    Likely the same reason for no gas bar at this location. Along 107 avenue there's a Husky, a Shell, and the Petro/7-11 on 116 st.

  85. #9785

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    And the Hughes directly across from the Petro.
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    That, and unless they can also put in a car wash, gas stations really aren't that profitable. Their margin on fuel sales is maybe a few percent. Hence the trend to larger stations with a convenience store, Timmy's or similar, and car wash.

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    I used to pop into that shell station all the time when I was working with SFZ a few years ago. How many service stations are needed on 107th?
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    Seems there's enough..
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  89. #9789

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    And the Hughes directly across from the Petro.
    My bad, missed that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    That, and unless they can also put in a car wash, gas stations really aren't that profitable. Their margin on fuel sales is maybe a few percent. Hence the trend to larger stations with a convenience store, Timmy's or similar, and car wash.
    Another nearby example of the above is the Esso/7-11 on 109 st and 111 avenue, which has a car wash.

  90. #9790

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    I always found this interesting relating to this discussion about gas-bars clustering


  91. #9791

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Seems there's enough..
    Well I can think of at least two that closed downtown, the Central Tire Michelin one most recently, so the ones on 107th Ave might get more business from former customers of these ones. The Petro Can one downtown could use more competition. It has gone from the low priced to the high priced now that Michelin is gone.

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    Central Tire is gone ?

    Holy ***** !

    Top_Dawg didn't even notice.

    He'll have to take a look tonight.

    They must have been there for over forty years.

  93. #9793

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    Is it just the central gas gas bar that shutdown or the entire business is gone?

  94. #9794

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Is it just the central gas gas bar that shutdown or the entire business is gone?
    Just the gas bar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I always found this interesting relating to this discussion about gas-bars clustering

    wow this from you who does not see the benefits of agglomeration the concentration of business and activities in the centre of a city.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    wow this from you who does not see the benefits of agglomeration the concentration of business and activities in the centre of a city.
    This video explains WHY it happens but if you watch it again you might note that it observes that this is NOT the Socially Optimal Solution... ie... doesn't make the point that the agglomeration BENEFITS the public but rather shows that it doesn't but happens due to competitive pressures or concerns.

  97. #9797

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I always found this interesting relating to this discussion about gas-bars clustering

    wow this from you who does not see the benefits of agglomeration the concentration of business and activities in the centre of a city.
    theres a few degrees of difference between retail and office space. Im sure you can understand the difference?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I always found this interesting relating to this discussion about gas-bars clustering

    wow this from you who does not see the benefits of agglomeration the concentration of business and activities in the centre of a city.
    theres a few degrees of difference between retail and office space. Im sure you can understand the difference?!
    and there’s more than a few degrees of similarity as well including the desire to attract information and exposure and - most particularly - employees the same way those ice cream vendors attracted customers.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    yes, you can still have a presence but the need for large HQs in a CBD is dwindling. Yes, the need for collaboration and meeting spaces still exist, but large floor plates of cubicle farms aren't as more and more businesses adopt technology which empowered their employees to work from home. When you need to come to the office, you book a shared hotel station for the day/time you need it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoteling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommuting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    yes, you can still have a presence but the need for large HQs in a CBD is dwindling. Yes, the need for collaboration and meeting spaces still exist, but large floor plates of cubicle farms aren't as more and more businesses adopt technology which empowered their employees to work from home. When you need to come to the office, you book a shared hotel station for the day/time you need it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoteling

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommuting
    and you do realize those are efforts being put in place by those businesses to more affordably stay downtown, not leave downtown? and while the measures are economically successful, they are often not as successful from a productivity or employee retention/attraction basis.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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