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Thread: Zero teacher fired

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I assure you I have the competence and ability to read periodical articles and research papers and have had experience in this nature of reading for some 30yrs.
    It isn't my comprehension that prevents me from following the Kalispel article. Its how poorly concieved and written the article is.
    I didn't say you lack competence. I said that the article was not written with your skills set in mind. I too have experience reading in diverse areas, but there are fields where reading is a challenge simply because the discourse structure is different. This was not meant as an evaluation of your reading skills, just a hypothesis that you're simply not the intended reader.

    this is such a catch 22 moment. So far you guys want a narrowly structured and necessarily scientific piece that specifically addresses your set of questions (which I don't have by the way) written in the way that you accept. Meanwhile, it would be nice if you do parallel research in finding the equally scientific justifications of why and how zeros support learning both academic and of responsibility and similar type skills.
    I didn't take it the wrong way, just clarifying.

    My area of expertise would also be closer then you might think which you can ask about in PM if you wish. I will say I'm well versed in this nature of literature. But I still question the lack of empirical supporting evidence as I should.

    While I do appreciate your digging, and how much time and effort you have spent on this, in this specific exchange you did take on burden of proof in justifying this firing of a tenured educator for the reasons given. The citations presented really aren't convincing at all to this end. I've searched as well for documents that would support this policy(just out of interest and my own enlightenment) and I'm having trouble finding any either. Don't think I'm not being open minded on this but I would require some convincing. The Phi Delta Kappa article, if you want more feedback contains multiple indications of bias, foregone conclusion, and isn't debating or fairly considering the issue at hand as much as its already arrived at the conclusion and is denouncing the view of educators that don't follow the new prescript. Surely you detect the severe bias contained in the article. It isn't objectively worded. It starts failing from there. But I wouldn't give it a zero.

    cheers and thanks again for a good discussion on this.
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-09-2012 at 09:50 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    This `No Zero`policy could just be a study in itself. School boards may be trying it out for a few years to see if academic scores improve, get worse or stay the same. If scores and attitudes get worse they may reverse back to older methods. A few of us have stated it is an unproven method. Maybe EPSB is trying to see if it will be proven or not.
    I'd have no problem if this was all that happened and if a tenured teacher had not been fired due to this. None of us would be discussing this issue were that the case.

    In post 73 I go into detail on actions the school, and schoolboard could've taken to mitigate, preserve their intentions, and continue the employment of those that disagree in the policy. There would've been several solutions and mine is actually fairly heavy handed in terms of superceding the teachers direct mark, but at least it solves the issue and falls far short of terminating the individual.

    It deserves to be stated that the school board is embarking on a transtion in grading practice here. Any transition of this nature and magnitude should involve obvious gradual application, assume some hiccups, resistance, and foster an arrived at goal through patient means. This seems far from the case here. You don't transition changes of this magnitude with zero tolerance, expect 100% complicity, and fire people who don't agree. That isn't fostering support of the concept and change. If anything it just built fervent resentment and opposition to the change.
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-09-2012 at 09:40 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    This `No Zero`policy could just be a study in itself. School boards may be trying it out for a few years to see if academic scores improve, get worse or stay the same. If scores and attitudes get worse they may reverse back to older methods. A few of us have stated it is an unproven method. Maybe EPSB is trying to see if it will be proven or not.
    I'd have no problem if this was all that happened and if a tenured teacher had not been fired due to this. None of us would be discussing this issue were that the case.

    In post 73 I go into detail on actions the school, and schoolboard could've taken to mitigate, preserve their intentions, and continue the employment of those that disagree in the policy. There would've been several solutions and mine is actually fairly heavy handed in terms of superceding the teachers direct mark, but at least it solves the issue and falls far short of terminating the individual.
    Oh I agree that the `punishment`for Mr. Dorval did not fit the crime. My feeling is that the hierachy at EPSB are flexing their muscles and using him as an example. It`s a way of keeping the staff in line. Now I am sure it has gone into personality clashes. School teacher butting heads with school principal etc: I know they are all adults but sometimes their ego`s get in the way and they will do just about anything to be proven right. Even if it means losing a teacher with 35 years of experience.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    This `No Zero`policy could just be a study in itself. School boards may be trying it out for a few years to see if academic scores improve, get worse or stay the same. If scores and attitudes get worse they may reverse back to older methods. A few of us have stated it is an unproven method. Maybe EPSB is trying to see if it will be proven or not.
    I'd have no problem if this was all that happened and if a tenured teacher had not been fired due to this. None of us would be discussing this issue were that the case.

    In post 73 I go into detail on actions the school, and schoolboard could've taken to mitigate, preserve their intentions, and continue the employment of those that disagree in the policy. There would've been several solutions and mine is actually fairly heavy handed in terms of superceding the teachers direct mark, but at least it solves the issue and falls far short of terminating the individual.
    Oh I agree that the `punishment`for Mr. Dorval did not fit the crime. My feeling is that the hierachy at EPSB are flexing their muscles and using him as an example. It`s a way of keeping the staff in line. Now I am sure it has gone into personality clashes. School teacher butting heads with school principal etc: I know they are all adults but sometimes their ego`s get in the way and they will do just about anything to be proven right. Even if it means losing a teacher with 35 years of experience.
    Exactly, and thats unfortunate. It isn't hard to discern some of the human butting of heads in this. A gentler and wiser path was possible for all involved. But which takes patience, reason, ongoing dialogue, input, and gets implemented gradually over a longer period of time.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  5. #105

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    Yup, we can`t give them a Zero but let`s give them a Fail on this one.
    Last edited by Gemini; 17-09-2012 at 09:56 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  6. #106
    grish
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    Replacement,

    What do you think is the main reasearch question or purpose of a study that would fairly and bias-free address this whole topic?

    G.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Replacement,

    What do you think is the main reasearch question or purpose of a study that would fairly and bias-free address this whole topic?

    G.
    To substantiate any clear advantage of continuing in grading policy that has existed vs reinventing the wheel and not allowing any zero grading.

    I've already put expectations to words and so have you.

    This is what I wrote:
    the study of these variables would require longtitudinal empirical research and replication and isolating variables and qualifying extraneous variable effects.
    While you drew some differences in your mind between psycho/socio research vs other fields earlier I will assert that theres nothing preventing schools from contributing research with controlled longitudinal study. Doesn't have to be all that long either but enough to substantiate a significant difference between non zeros group and control group. But mathematically controlling of course the differences that automatically occur when no zeros occur in the one group.

    You keep saying, and some citations keep saying that theres clear research that substantiates the no zero policy. Again where is that research? Not tertiary vague references to it that don't even say anything about it, wheres the actual research studies? Should be easy enough to find considering how so many people in Education are talking about this and mandating this. I would also thing this information be made readily available to stakeholders, students, parents.

    If presented with such study(I haven't been able to locate anything even close) I will look at it and evaluate on the basis of substantiation.
    Last edited by Replacement; 18-09-2012 at 09:31 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  8. #108

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    ^The reason he's not pointing out any research is because there either a) isn't any, or b) it proves that no zero's doesn't work.

    Since this whole issue erupted, countless folks have spent a tremendous amount of time trying to find research that proves the no zero policy has solid research backing, and they haven't been able to. I'm not talking about laymen such as myself, I'm talking about people within the education system, professors, journalists, politicians, and so forth. People who know where to look. Industry professionals. Actual researchers. They found nothing.

    Not to mention the other side of it. Those same people have asked the principal, superintendent, and school board to produce the research that backs up their claim that no zero's is good. Also, none to be found. If they have it, why wouldn't they save face and produce it for us all to see? I can't imagine it's some kind of closely guarded, proprietary information.

    But hey, who needs facts when you've got one guy with some anecdotes. This is only other people's children we're talking about here.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 18-09-2012 at 09:46 AM.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  9. #109
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Replacement,
    What do you think is the main reasearch question or purpose of a study that would fairly and bias-free address this whole topic?
    G.
    To substantiate any clear advantage of continuing in grading policy that has existed vs reinventing the wheel and not allowing any zero grading.
    I've already put expectations to words and so have you.
    This is what I wrote:
    the study of these variables would require longtitudinal empirical research and replication and isolating variables and qualifying extraneous variable effects.
    I don't believe "reinventing the wheel" is an appropriate phrase here. This is about a change in practice. I doubt that the first person who thought to grade something with a zero because it simply was not handed in had any sort of background research to justify the decision.

    We are in a bit of a paradox. When it comes to teaching, people point to past experience to make claims that a certain habitual practice is good. Many people make un-substantiated claims about values such grading supports. Yet, when a change is suggested, proposed, or enforced, the expectation is that there is a "scientific method" approach.

    But, I think I would like to pursue the challenge of finding research that support the no zero grading. I just need your assistance in determining the actual variables that you think should have been studied in producing your scientific method research. Should it have been grades? Would you believe a quantitative research that studied grades as one indicator of improvement? Or, perhaps, retention rates? Would it be attitudes towards work... Choose the variable that you think would support one method of grading over the other and I will continue searching.

    Chmilz, please, help replacement out in identifying the actual variable that you think would definitively point to a better grading procedure.

  10. #110

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    ^Ok:

    If you don't do it or you do it wrong, you fail.

    Seems to have worked in all aspects of human civilization for the last 50,000 years or so.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  11. #111
    grish
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    ????

  12. #112

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    ^See this? It's in response to the near UNANIMOUS PUBLIC OPINION that not giving zeros is wrong and stupid.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  13. #113

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    I find it interesting the teacher has already been offered a new position.

    Grish

    As a parent I believe if the system is to be changed there has to be strong evidence to support the change. I do not want my child experimented with and frankly there has been much of that since I was in school in the 60s.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  14. #114
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post


    ^See this? It's in response to the near UNANIMOUS PUBLIC OPINION that not giving zeros is wrong and stupid.
    saw it. I wonder what empirically sound evidence the great "unanimous" opinion used to form that opinion.

    Thomas:
    People tend to think in terms of history that is available to them. You mention the 60's, but history of education goes several thousand years before that. There used to be a time when grades weren't given. Either you knew or you didn't. In between that historical period and where we are now, attendance per se was not valued at all. In fact, a person could simply walk into a university and present a body of work they had done on their own to earn a doctorate.

    What people are holding on to is probably not much older (and more likely it is younger) than the invention of the public schools. That only goes back to about 100 years ago. It is very likely that the history of aviation is older than the history of the public school in NA. Grades such as the ones we use now have also been evolving.

    To really understand the current practice and where it came about, we do need to look back at the history. If historical terms of experience are so valuable, then perhaps this "change" in policy is actually no change at all, but a return to hundreds or thousands of years prior to the period between the 60's and now when what was valued is the actual amount of knowledge, not the study and attendance habits. Back then, no one would say that "you know nothing" when you fail to show up to class.
    Last edited by grish; 19-09-2012 at 09:28 AM.

  15. #115

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    ^I'd argue that if you miss a class or an assignment that teaches you a very specific thing, that you absolutely do "know nothing". You can always learn it later, it's not like the opportunity has been lost. Zeros work just perfect for that. Zero now, because you don't know it. If you learn it, then they upgrade your mark.

    I don't know what it's like being a teacher, but in most jobs if you don't learn something you're supposed to, you don't get a lot of second chances before you're fired. I'll be sure to make sure when I have children and they're in school, they're in one that prepares them for the real world... unless they plan on being a teacher, in which case it appears they can make it up as they go.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  16. #116
    grish
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    You could argue that, but that is usually (always) not the case.

  17. #117

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    So you just speculate on what they learn? Make assumptions?

    Tell me, and be very specific, what method you use to determine what a student has learned or not learned in accordance to the curriculum if they don't hand in assignments, skip class, etc.

    Also, I'd like to know if you take test results and, by student, go back through the semester and determine if the questions they got wrong directly coincide with the lessons they missed/didn't hand in or not?

    I'm willing to bet with your workload you do not. I also am willing to bet if a student doesn't learn something, they'll fail it on the test. How is that good for either the student, your profession, or standardized achievement testing numbers?

    Going a bit more macro, the world is becoming a very competitive place. Your students will not be competing with each other for jobs, they'll be competing with everyone. China's standards are rocketing way past ours. S. Korea has now started teaching all students how to code (computer code) starting in grade 1.

    We can't even hold a student accountable to learn. You expect them to compete with these other nations for jobs in the future? Regardless of how you feel about handing out zeros or not, that's a failure in your duty to prepare kids for the future. In some microcosm of feel-good learning environments you may feel you're doing these kids some good, but when they run face first into the brick wall of life, no amount of self-esteem engineering will prepare them for being a total failure when they're unable to compete.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  18. #118
    grish
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    Chmilz,
    I don't think you thought this through. You are confusing learning new things to having knoweldge of things.

    First of all, every credible and widely accepted theory about learning states that some prior knowledge is required to learn something new.

    Secondly, and I will speak for every teacher out there includcing Mr. Dorval, when I say that we don't evaluate the number of things learned. We evaluate the amount of knowledge. What you propose in terms of measuring means that, for example, a native speaker of Spanish who is fully fluent will automaically fail Spanish 20 at your local high school because that student would not be able to learn anything new.

    We, teachers, do not care so much where our students learn things as long as they know things. In my previous life I did many stints as a tutor. One of my students back then was a 90+% student at the time I was hired. My job was to teach ahead to bring the student closer to 100%. Essentially, I was the person passing on the information and skills, and the teacher was the records keeper. Say the teacher discovers this "subversive" activity, would the teacher grade student's work as 0 simply because the learning did not happen from the activities the teacher presented?

    You have actually stumbled upon a nice parallel to grading with zeros for work missed as well as an illustration why zero grades for work missed are not in any way accurate representations of learning or knowledge.

    Grish

  19. #119

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    Mr. Dorval has been offered a job at Tempo School in Riverbend. They are glad to have him. He starts work October 16th. The school allows zero's to be given to students. Common sense is present in some schools in Edmonton. No hair brained zero's at that school or bafflegab from people trying to defend it.

    CTV News at 12.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  20. #120
    grish
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    Knowing a thing or two about Tempo, students not handing in homework is not a typical problem there...

    Free publicity for a business is, while not priceless, is still like money in the bank.

  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Knowing a thing or two about Tempo, students not handing in homework is not a typical problem there...
    I doubt that very much.

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Knowing a thing or two about Tempo, students not handing in homework is not a typical problem there...

    Free publicity for a business is, while not priceless, is still like money in the bank.
    The publicity is great for the school not too mention they are getting a qualified teacher with 35 years experience. The principal said something on those lines when they interviewed him.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    So you just speculate on what they learn? Make assumptions?

    Tell me, and be very specific, what method you use to determine what a student has learned or not learned in accordance to the curriculum if they don't hand in assignments, skip class, etc.

    Also, I'd like to know if you take test results and, by student, go back through the semester and determine if the questions they got wrong directly coincide with the lessons they missed/didn't hand in or not?

    I'm willing to bet with your workload you do not. I also am willing to bet if a student doesn't learn something, they'll fail it on the test. How is that good for either the student, your profession, or standardized achievement testing numbers?

    Going a bit more macro, the world is becoming a very competitive place. Your students will not be competing with each other for jobs, they'll be competing with everyone. China's standards are rocketing way past ours. S. Korea has now started teaching all students how to code (computer code) starting in grade 1.

    We can't even hold a student accountable to learn. You expect them to compete with these other nations for jobs in the future? Regardless of how you feel about handing out zeros or not, that's a failure in your duty to prepare kids for the future. In some microcosm of feel-good learning environments you may feel you're doing these kids some good, but when they run face first into the brick wall of life, no amount of self-esteem engineering will prepare them for being a total failure when they're unable to compete.
    Intererestingly one of the "evidence" links Grish made earlier was the Phi Kappa article in which it was expoused that an F now equals 50%.

    How does somebody fail? F secret double minus?

    This apparently being the pass at all costs *advancement* inherent in todays education.

    Just as an aside U of A recently opted to do away with the normal curve stanine grading system. Meaning hypothetically that a whole class could pass. Have tuition will succeed. look out world.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2012 at 05:49 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Knowing a thing or two about Tempo, students not handing in homework is not a typical problem there...

    Free publicity for a business is, while not priceless, is still like money in the bank.
    You seem to be dismissing this and making light of it and defending the actions of EPSB and entirely missing that the number water cooler convo in the city right now is this topic and with EPSB having considerable egg on its face. Which the editorial cartoon mockingly, and I should say, perfectly depicts.
    Thats what happens when you make incomprehensible indefensible decisions. The puplic tends to not defend them but deride them.

    If the EPSB's intent was to kibosh the implementation and support of zero grading they've done a wonderful job. Maybe Dorval does have support after all.

    Good for Tempo showing some common sense in this and hiring a good educator who will serve his students well. Some school has their priorities straight.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2012 at 05:47 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  25. #125
    grish
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    at the same time and interesstingly there is no other profession, other that teaching, where every person assumes they have the full grasp of the complexity of issues that are dealt with. The reason every water cooler gets to hear people ranting about the EPSB is because people remember this stuff being done to them and they have built elaborate explanations of the perceived benefit.

    Not long ago people also felt that the more crime deserves more punishment and harsher laws. Check with the US to see how well that "common sense" theory had played out. There was also a theory that the homeless don't deserve any handouts let alone free housing, yet recent projects including those in Calgary where certain homeless were given free apartments had shown remarkable improvement in their quality of life, resulted in lower costs to society overall, and actually had taken several chronic homeless off the street and into the ranks of "productive society". There are jurisdictions and programs that provide safe amounts of drugs and alcohol for free to addicts to ensure a better quality of life. Also with positive outcomes.

    It is not the first nor the last time that counterintutive approach to problems is the right one.

    I believe that the majority of people and perhaps the majority of teachers disagree with the EPSB. However, EPSB policy is the only correct one. A knowledge grade is a grade describing knowledge. It does not describe anything else nor should it.

    UofA choice to do away with the curve is not all about collecting tuition. It is done in the face of evidence that the normal distribution curve doesn't always apply. They have done their homework on this one. But there will be people on here questioning the scientific methods used by the place that is the local expert on research methodology.

    btw, I am still prepared to do a proper lit search if you can identify the specific variables that would demonstrate the effectiveness of the zeros for missed work practice.

    I am also curious to hear how you would feel about teachers giving zeros for nothing new learned if a student already has the necessary knowledge to pass the course per Chmilz's suggestion. I mean, you accept the practice to give knowledge grade for attendance. Why not knowledge grade for amount of learning or the amount of change in knowledge?
    Last edited by grish; 19-09-2012 at 07:05 PM.

  26. #126

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    I knew the resounding number of Edmontonians were against EPSB Zero policy I did not know it was that resoundingly high. A Journal survey taken indicated out of people who took the poll 97% of them were against the Zero fiasco. It seems EPSB is reviewing this policy of Zero marks. Maybe EPSB will realize it cannot reinvent the wheel.
    Article below is worth reading in regards to what limited research has been done on 'No Zero' marking techniques.
    It appears the Emperor has no clothes.

    http://michaelzwaagstra.com/?cat=9
    Last edited by Gemini; 19-09-2012 at 09:15 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  27. #127
    grish
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    sorry, Gemini, but Chmilz tells me such opinions should not be used as facts.

  28. #128

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    Oh no, my apologies, I did not realize you danced to Chmilz's tune.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Not long ago people also felt that the more crime deserves more punishment and harsher laws. Check with the US to see how well that "common sense" theory had played out. There was also a theory that the homeless don't deserve any handouts let alone free housing, yet recent projects including those in Calgary where certain homeless were given free apartments had shown remarkable improvement in their quality of life, resulted in lower costs to society overall, and actually had taken several chronic homeless off the street and into the ranks of "productive society". There are jurisdictions and programs that provide safe amounts of drugs and alcohol for free to addicts to ensure a better quality of life. Also with positive outcomes.
    Honestly if you have to delve in nebulous answers like this to try to make your point you don't have a lot of material to work with apparently.
    In short this isn't convincing, the EPSB decision isn't convincing, their rationale isn't convincing, and as Chmilz correctly noted damage control at this point would involve the schoolboard at least now informing the public, their stakeholders, parents, and community, and city of their rationale and background in the policy (which isn't even a schoolboard general policy)

    The counterintuitive argument is really poor as well, sometimes a strange decision is just a strange decision without justification and which is indefensible. That you have to use a term like counterintuitive to try to back again means how little you have to draw from to back this decision. If you had convincing arguments, or if the school had convincing arguments we'd be seeing them. Again save the bit about the people commenting on this not having the expertise, the comprehension, consideration, or processing ability to know that firing a longstanding employee of considerable value on the basis of an unsubstantiated policy involving expectation of blind acceptance and adherence to said policy is in a word stupid. I would say reactive but thats giving the decision credit.

    People all over the city are talking about reviewing their school tax preference solely on the basis of this one decision. Who knows how many people follow through on that but if its even 100 or so people its paying for a couple quality teachers like Dorval. Although apparently EPSB doesn't prioritize quality of instructors. Good to see some schools do.

    Finally, the biggest fallout of all in this is the schoolboard invoking overkill and firing this teacher outright. Any number of options could have been more reasonable considered and I've mentioned some. You haven't grasped that the biggest uproar in this is the school taking it to this level. Its fine to try some new approaches at the school level. But to have it result in this end result is largely whats being disputed. That theres no justification, none, for the firing. We haven't seen a valid reason for it yet in this thread.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2012 at 10:33 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    I knew the resounding number of Edmontonians were against EPSB Zero policy I did not know it was that resoundingly high. A Journal survey taken indicated out of people who took the poll 97% of them were against the Zero fiasco. It seems EPSB is reviewing this policy of Zero marks. Maybe EPSB will realize it cannot reinvent the wheel.
    Article below is worth reading in regards to what limited research has been done on 'No Zero' marking techniques.
    It appears the Emperor has no clothes.

    http://michaelzwaagstra.com/?cat=9
    On any local current event I haven't seen this degree of universal polarization. Its quite marked and incredible really. The Journal loves to play devils advocate and they always try to put some for and against views from readers on the editorials. They haven't done that on this issue. I haven't seen one letter to the editor in favor of this decision. probably because they can't find one in support. Just saying, not using that as my gauge, but its interesting.

    There were even Edmontonians defending Wild Rose Party, Danielle Smith, and that supported burning fire and brimstone lake. Virtually NOBODY is supporting this. It must be too much a case of non intuitive genius at work for us to get it.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-09-2012 at 10:34 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  31. #131
    grish
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    "majority" is only good for games of tug-of-war.

    I selected the counterintuitive examples a few posts above as they directly link to topic at hand. They aren't nebulous in any way, but directly connected to the idea of critical review of current practice in the face of evidence be it empirical data or a convincing philosophical argument. People are beginning to recognize more and more that punishment or the threat of punishment is hardly a deterrent. It is definitely not a motivator. (literature from business to schools and everything in between seems to agree with that theory.)

    One basic principle of behaviour modification is that the consequence needs to reasonably connect to the behaviour. Sort of like when a child dirties a room, the natural consequence is not spanking or child being sent bed or witholding supper. Dirty room requires cleaning. Another basic principle in behaviour work is that behaviours are shaped by the set of circumstance that gives rise to the behaviour. For example, children of people who are going through divorce often act out in various ways. The most effective means to correct that behaviour is to deal with the issue of divorce and how it reflects on the child.

    The issue with work not being done is the same. The direct consequence to work not being done is getting the work done. Everything else is the "re-invention of a wheel" whatever that means in this instance. "Work isn't done" is a sign of any of the following: poor time management, laziness, work being percieved as not valuable, project being seen as not interesting, lack of motivation in general, a variety of personal issues... So the consequence is the expectation that work should and will be done alongside the correction of the underlying cause. That is the "no-zero" expectation that is typically communicated with the staff.

    A teacher is typically asked to continue following up with the student until the work is complete. At the same time, the expectation is that the student learns the value of completing work on time and teacher getting to the bottom of the underlying cause for incomplete work in the first place. This teaches the values of perseverence and responsibility as well as the worth of seeing something through to the end.

    To be honest, when I started as a teacher I handed out zeros for no work being completed. That is all I knew and it never occured to me to question this practice. It was a habit like spanking used to be what parents did. But people evolve. There will come a time when Tempo will send a directive to ensure proper evaluation of their students and the expectation that no work is missed by anyone there. It's a good school and they too will come around but we probably will not hear about it in the papers...
    Last edited by grish; 20-09-2012 at 06:07 AM.

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    "majority" is only good for games of tug-of-war.

    I selected the counterintuitive examples a few posts above as they directly link to topic at hand. They aren't nebulous in any way, but directly connected to the idea of critical review of current practice in the face of evidence be it empirical data or a convincing philosophical argument. People are beginning to recognize more and more that punishment or the threat of punishment is hardly a deterrent. It is definitely not a motivator. (literature from business to schools and everything in between seems to agree with that theory.)
    Virtually nobody in the field of behavioral psychology would agree with your stance that aversive stimuli, clearly associated, and clearly connected as an antecedent has no effect. To spin your own stance now you are talking about an area that is perhaps beyond your scope and I clearly detect that in this exchange.


    One basic principle of behaviour modification is that the consequence needs to reasonably connect to the behaviour. Sort of like when a child dirties a room, the natural consequence is not spanking or child being sent bed or witholding supper. Dirty room requires cleaning. Another basic principle in behaviour work is that behaviours are shaped by the set of circumstance that gives rise to the behaviour. For example, children of people who are going through divorce often act out in various ways. The most effective means to correct that behaviour is to deal with the issue of divorce and how it reflects on the child.
    You have only a rudimentary understanding of this or behavioral conditioning. Why you would enter into this area, (and using poor and unfocused arguments) is beyond me. It isn't helping your position.

    The issue with work not being done is the same. The direct consequence to work not being done is getting the work done. Everything else is the "re-invention of a wheel" whatever that means in this instance. "Work isn't done" is a sign of any of the following: poor time management, laziness, work being percieved as not valuable, project being seen as not interesting, lack of motivation in general, a variety of personal issues... So the consequence is the expectation that work should and will be done alongside the correction of the underlying cause. That is the "no-zero" expectation that is typically communicated with the staff.
    So please indicate a study that students in schools are significantly more likely to subsequently self initiate handing in assignments when teachers don't consequence this as compared to when they get the zero. Again your descriptions of human psychological behavior, in lieu of substantiation of your spoken word, and considering this is obviously not your area of expertise is not helpful.


    A teacher is typically asked to continue following up with the student until the work is complete. At the same time, the expectation is that the student learns the value of completing work on time and teacher getting to the bottom of the underlying cause for incomplete work in the first place. This teaches the values of perseverence and responsibility as well as the worth of seeing something through to the end.
    So does the student learn anything about deadlines, self responsibility, autonomy, self management in this? What you're describing is essentially nanny teaching applied to the highschool level. Which arguably poorly prepares said student for the age of 18 when they can legally make any decisions for themself. Oddly enough, as an educator I'm sure you've seen countless examples of parents that are over invested in their youth's life and try to do their homework for them, argue marks for them, confront teachers for them, and so on. I'm sure the first thing that you recognize, and mention, is that taking responsibility over a youths life isn't really helping that student with their future decisions and self management. So teachers taking responsibility for students behavior is not as enlightened an action as you make it seem. In fact this action would be the opposite of "empowerment", and would more accurately be termed "enabling".

    This not even considering the deleterious erosion in expectation and responsibility that would occur in schools on a global level, with most students, just because the bar got dropped lower to facilitate students too lazy or irresponsible to do their work on time. I guess you haven't considered this but changing this allows ALL students to hand in assignments later. Maybe even as a strategy. Given the no zero hand holding direction what prevents the student body in whole becoming less proactive about getting assignments in on time? I'd wager the new initiative results in a decreased percentage of students handing in assignments in time if they know that their is no consequence for this action.
    It boils down to the following direction: "Class, please hand in your assignments on time, they are due September 28, but don't worry, nothing will happen if you don't hand them in on time and we'll probably just negotiate a time anyway so please disregard the word due, which now holds no meaning".


    To be honest, when I started as a teacher I handed out zeros for no work being completed. That is all I knew and it never occured to me to question this practice. It was a habit like spanking used to be what parents did. But people evolve. There will come a time when Tempo will send a directive to ensure proper evaluation of their students and the expectation that no work is missed by anyone there. It's a good school and they too will come around but we probably will not hear about it in the papers...
    Do you think its convincing to make contrived comparisons out of the blue to suit your argument?

    How about an obvious RELATED example? A year down the road for many of these students employers will pay them for hours, jobs, work completed. Fail to complete work and you won't have a job for long. I know in advance you'll refute this despite it being an obvious illustration but you seem to have no problem equating, zero's with punishment, spanking, etc.

    You're engaging in the identical fallacy as contained in the Phi Kappa link. That merely making a broadstroke comparison with something makes it so. Your comparison has no validity, unless you feel that "zero's" represent child abuse in the first case, in which case your view seems biased.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-09-2012 at 09:13 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  33. #133
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Virtually nobody in the field of behavioral psychology would agree with your stance that aversive stimuli, clearly associated, and clearly connected as an antecedent has no effect. To spin your own stance now you are talking about an area that is perhaps beyond your scope and I clearly detect that in this exchange.
    how do you define "clearly associated" and "clearly connected"? Start with that definition before insisting on speaking for the field of behavioural psychollogy. You may be trained in it, but as you previously mentioned, we must ward against bias...

    The "clearly associated" and the "clearly connected" is at the heart of the issue. The connection is that of habit, not of reality. Once you accept that, you will realize that the rest of what you wrote falls apart.

  34. #134
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So please indicate a study that students in schools are significantly more likely to subsequently self initiate handing in assignments when teachers don't consequence this as compared to when they get the zero. Again your descriptions of human psychological behavior, in lieu of substantiation of your spoken word, and considering this is obviously not your area of expertise is not helpful.
    Again, warding against bias and misunderstanding of the issue, I would like to point it out to you that what the EPSB (or Shep) has proposed is not free of consequence and thus the response is not self initiated. The policy is to replace an un-connected consequence with a relevant one. Using the threat of altering the knowledge-based grade with a zero makes as much sense as using electric shock therapy as a consequence to missed assignment.

  35. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Virtually nobody in the field of behavioral psychology would agree with your stance that aversive stimuli, clearly associated, and clearly connected as an antecedent has no effect. To spin your own stance now you are talking about an area that is perhaps beyond your scope and I clearly detect that in this exchange.
    how do you define "clearly associated" and "clearly connected"? Start with that definition before insisting on speaking for the field of behavioural psychollogy. You may be trained in it, but as you previously mentioned, we must ward against bias...

    The "clearly associated" and the "clearly connected" is at the heart of the issue. The connection is that of habit, not of reality. Once you accept that, you will realize that the rest of what you wrote falls apart.
    When I stated "Clearly Connected" I'm referring to the behavior being clearly followed by the consequence. For instance that the antecedent consequence quickly occurs, with known connection, and is not confused with other behaviors or operating variables.
    I am not inferring clear connection in other ways, for instance causality if thats what you're wondering.

    Sorry if I was vague, very long workday.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-09-2012 at 10:39 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  36. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So please indicate a study that students in schools are significantly more likely to subsequently self initiate handing in assignments when teachers don't consequence this as compared to when they get the zero. Again your descriptions of human psychological behavior, in lieu of substantiation of your spoken word, and considering this is obviously not your area of expertise is not helpful.
    Again, warding against bias and misunderstanding of the issue, I would like to point it out to you that what the EPSB (or Shep) has proposed is not free of consequence and thus the response is not self initiated. The policy is to replace an un-connected consequence with a relevant one. Using the threat of altering the knowledge-based grade with a zero makes as much sense as using electric shock therapy as a consequence to missed assignment.
    One would think there would be a goal in this. For instance increased proportion of assignments handed in on time and graded. One would further think there would be some foresight on the predictable deleterious effects of this ruling on overall handing in of assignments as I mentioned.

    I note you ignored most of my post in which I raise several likely concerns that will arise out of this schools new policy.
    Please clarify what the "consequence" of a late assignment now is, respond to my question on what "date due" now means(if anything) and how this will all be dealt with. I can see teachers after awhile having to chase down a whole lot of late assignments. Seems like the only consequence in this is to teachers.

    ps now you add electric shock therapy as a comparable to "zero grading" can the electric chair be far behind in your analogies? How do you think this is servicing your argument? It isn't. It of course detracts from it.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-09-2012 at 10:39 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  37. #137
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So does the student learn anything about deadlines, self responsibility, autonomy, self management in this? What you're describing is essentially nanny teaching applied to the highschool level. Which arguably poorly prepares said student for the age of 18 when they can legally make any decisions for themself. Oddly enough, as an educator I'm sure you've seen countless examples of parents that are over invested in their youth's life and try to do their homework for them, argue marks for them, confront teachers for them, and so on. I'm sure the first thing that you recognize, and mention, is that taking responsibility over a youths life isn't really helping that student with their future decisions and self management. So teachers taking responsibility for students behavior is not as enlightened an action as you make it seem. In fact this action would be the opposite of "empowerment", and would more accurately be termed "enabling".
    I am sorry, but this is a mother of run-on, self-contradictory arguments.

    Q. Does student learn about deadlines, etc (first question)?
    A. I think so. It obviously depends on the student and obviously depends on of the cause of work not being completed. The student may not even need to learn any of those as the cause for missed work may be connected to something entirely different such as a personal relationship crisis. Having the big picture of the human is important here. Which is, incidentally, why psychologists have much too narrow view of education, but I digress.

    Definitely not nanny teaching. No one advocating for teacher completing work on behalf of student. The expectation is that the student completes ALL of assigned work instead of only some while trading the permission to not hand in for a change in overall knowledge grade. Work is done preferrably on time, but if not on time, the teacher pursues completion of assignments through more involvement with the student, parents, councellors, or broader support network.

    You may argue that this would poorly prepare for 18, but the basis of your argument is faulty as you haven't actually understood the policy that is being asked to follow. I would also like to know what constitutes a "proper preparation for 18". Who decides what this is? This wouldn't be a personal opinion based on personal experience and thus incongruent with a bias-free position, would it?

    I have had my share of overbearing parents. Students not completing work is usually not the problem with them, unless as a form of rebellion. But then we go back to alternate reasons for missing work. In those cases, learning "responsibility" is not at issue and so the "punishment" really misses the root cause of the behaviour. Remember, you expect clear association and connection of the stimuli.


    This not even considering the deleterious erosion in expectation and responsibility that would occur in schools on a global level, with most students, just because the bar got dropped lower to facilitate students too lazy or irresponsible to do their work on time. I guess you haven't considered this but changing this allows ALL students to hand in assignments later. Maybe even as a strategy. Given the no zero hand holding direction what prevents the student body in whole becoming less proactive about getting assignments in on time? I'd wager the new initiative results in a decreased percentage of students handing in assignments in time if they know that their is no consequence for this action.
    It boils down to the following direction: "Class, please hand in your assignments on time, they are due September 28, but don't worry, nothing will happen if you don't hand them in on time and we'll probably just negotiate a time anyway so please disregard the word due, which now holds no meaning".
    You speak out of fear of something that may or may not happen. The collective disobedience could happen, but what would be the purpose. Why do you and so many others assume that chaos will spread when children aren't kept in check? And who is to say that these children will be free to roam and do as they please? What stops them now? Have you considered the possibility that all students in all schools will stop handing in work and receive a collective zero on all their assessments? OMG! This COULD HAPPEN... Please. Relax. Children aren't that bad. They act out once in a while. They organize somtimes. Sometimes it is to join gangs. More often to socialize and do good deeds.


    Do you think its convincing to make contrived comparisons out of the blue to suit your argument?

    How about an obvious RELATED example? A year down the road for many of these students employers will pay them for hours, jobs, work completed. Fail to complete work and you won't have a job for long. I know in advance you'll refute this despite it being an obvious illustration but you seem to have no problem equating, zero's with punishment, spanking, etc.

    You're engaging in the identical fallacy as contained in the Phi Kappa link. That merely making a broadstroke comparison with something makes it so. Your comparison has no validity, unless you feel that "zero's" represent child abuse in the first case, in which case your view seems biased.
    Again, you show clear misunderstanding of the issue. Please, read these words carefully: Under the proposed policy all students are expected to complete all work. They are not given permission to just quit and take a zero. If an employer expects work to be completed, the employer will have a person who had completed all work. That's what you claim we want, so what is the issue???

    The falacy here is your insistence on personal fears and misunderstandings as grounds for your claims.

  38. #138
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ps now you add electric shock therapy as a comparable to "zero grading" can the electric chair be far behind in your analogies? How do you think this is servicing your argument? It isn't. It of course detracts from it.
    Hey, electric shock could be immediate and thus clearly connected stimuli. true, it doesn't really make sense, but neither does changing of the grade describing knowledge based on a behaviour.

    the reply to the rest of your writing, by the way, is already there...

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    [
    I am sorry, but this is a mother of run-on, self-contradictory arguments.

    Q. Does student learn about deadlines, etc (first question)?
    A. I think so. It obviously depends on the student and obviously depends on of the cause of work not being completed. The student may not even need to learn any of those as the cause for missed work may be connected to something entirely different such as a personal relationship crisis. Having the big picture of the human is important here. Which is, incidentally, why psychologists have much too narrow view of education, but I digress.
    Interesting bias for somebody that oddly introduced rudimentary Psychology into the discussion and who was inaccurately using behavioral psychology to come to false conclusion.

    Definitely not nanny teaching. No one advocating for teacher completing work on behalf of student. The expectation is that the student completes ALL of assigned work instead of only some while trading the permission to not hand in for a change in overall knowledge grade. Work is done preferrably on time, but if not on time, the teacher pursues completion of assignments through more involvement with the student, parents, councellors, or broader support network.
    Sounds great on paper, is a lot of work. Moreso because more assignments will be handed in late and more tracking down of students, parents, networks etc will need to take place.
    You may argue that this would poorly prepare for 18, but the basis of your argument is faulty as you haven't actually understood the policy that is being asked to follow. I would also like to know what constitutes a "proper preparation for 18". Who decides what this is? This wouldn't be a personal opinion based on personal experience and thus incongruent with a bias-free position, would it?
    A proper preparation for the world evokes similar standards and expectations of that world. For instance most of the world being on the clock with defined, set, adhered to time boundaries,due dates, and on time expectations which gives the world a temporal structure so necessary to its functioning. Not sure how this is hard for you to follow.

    I have had my share of overbearing parents. Students not completing work is usually not the problem with them, unless as a form of rebellion. But then we go back to alternate reasons for missing work. In those cases, learning "responsibility" is not at issue and so the "punishment" really misses the root cause of the behaviour. Remember, you expect clear association and connection of the stimuli.
    So how far is the typical teacher willing to delve for that "root cause" of behavior. Good luck with deftly peeling the onion of many students and going far beyond teaching in doing so. This is a sure recipe to involve precious and limited teacher resources and apply most of it to stuggling or unwilling students. While gifted and dedicated students that demand less time recieve less focus.

    You speak out of fear of something that may or may not happen. The collective disobedience could happen, but what would be the purpose. Why do you and so many others assume that chaos will spread when children aren't kept in check? And who is to say that these children will be free to roam and do as they please? What stops them now? Have you considered the possibility that all students in all schools will stop handing in work and receive a collective zero on all their assessments? OMG! This COULD HAPPEN... Please. Relax. Children aren't that bad. They act out once in a while. They organize somtimes. Sometimes it is to join gangs. More often to socialize and do good deeds.
    No need to infer anything silly about "kids going bad" Thats not at all what is being stated by me. I'm merely invoking that which is developmentally likely to occur and that will statistically impact when assignments are handed in. I'm not even guessing here. Its a given.
    Factor in adolescent attributes like difficulty with delay of gratification, impulsivity, procrastination, distraction, competing interests, easily bored, and one can draw some reasonable and very likely conclusions.
    I'll pose a question here. When do you think most students complete major assigments? One month before due, one week before due, two days before due, or night before due. If your answer leans to the latter doesn't it confirm some of the likely found attributes and expected behavior I'm postulating. Fact is if you remove any consequence for date due then what does date due mean? How is meaningful due date then established?
    I could see a slippery slope with this. Kid doesn't hand in report on time, teacher then makes allowances for any and all problems, gives student whatever EXTRA weeks to complete assignment, student still doesn't complete assignment, teacher gives student longer time to complete assignment, school year ends, teacher shows up at students house like "Mr Hand" asking for owed hours from Jeff Spicoli before he gets to go to the prom..
    Yes, I'm purposely making the above sound ridiculous to mirror the initiative.


    Again, you show clear misunderstanding of the issue. Please, read these words carefully: Under the proposed policy all students are expected to complete all work. They are not given permission to just quit and take a zero. If an employer expects work to be completed, the employer will have a person who had completed all work. That's what you claim we want, so what is the issue???

    The falacy here is your insistence on personal fears and misunderstandings as grounds for your claims.
    I'm not misunderstanding. I think its clear if anything in this exchange you can't see past your nose on this as you are INVESTED in this initiative, i.e. bias.
    I have no horses in this race and I'm looking at it from the outside as an objective, but learned, party. Still waiting for you to substantiate the efficacy involved in this no zero policy. Should be easy to do if its justified. Even easier considering I'm asking the horses mouth. But apparently not.
    I'm actually surprised how ineffective you've been at debating, informing, and substantiating this issue. One would think with your expertise as a teacher and exposure to all the latest research that more backing literature would be at your easy disposal.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-09-2012 at 06:29 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  40. #140
    grish
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    I brought up the practical behaviour psychology–the psychology of the complex systems, not the theoretical lab psychology to which you seem to refer.

    I appreciate your concern for the work load of the teacher. Aside from not clearly understanding that all teachers are currently expected to extend their concern to the whole child under their care (in loco parentis or the legal requirement to act in the best interest of the student which includes going outside the classroom for root causes of behaviours), you failed to realize that I never expexcted this policy to be solely a burden on the teacher. Remember that I specifically stated that teachers need to be supported if this policy were to be mandated by reduced class sizes, training, etc.. Your primary concern in teachers being overloaded is the secondary concern of the value of this policy. But that brings us back to posts at the beginning meaning we came full circle.

    I think we are done here.

  41. #141

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    HaHa, nice one, done in typical grish style. Moves the target then pucks off.
    His personality quirk will ALWAYS make him think he's right and ALWAYS insist he has the last word.
    EPSB No Zero Policy - 3% For 97% Against
    Stick a fork in it as it is done.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  42. #142
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    HaHa, nice one, done in typical grish style. Moves the target then pucks off.
    His personality quirk will ALWAYS make him think he's right and ALWAYS insist he has the last word.
    EPSB No Zero Policy - 3% For 97% Against
    Stick a fork in it as it is done.
    yes, gemini, not quite right for the discussion, but ready and willing to provide thought-free sideline commentary. thanks for your dispensable contribution. keep forgetting to find cartoons so you can follow along. but then I remember: you're not my audience.
    cheers.

  43. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    I brought up the practical behaviour psychology–the psychology of the complex systems, not the theoretical lab psychology to which you seem to refer.
    Sorry, you have no apparent knowledge in this area which is coming across loudly. You made a direct reference to behavioral psychology many posts ago stating your view that punishment as a stimulus doesn't have any affect. Wrong.

    I appreciate your concern for the work load of the teacher. Aside from not clearly understanding that all teachers are currently expected to extend their concern to the whole child under their care (in loco parentis or the legal requirement to act in the best interest of the student which includes going outside the classroom for root causes of behaviours),
    I missed where teachers became social workers. You might want to fill me in. The amount of times a teacher came calling to my house or anybody I know amounts to zero. Your "legal requirement" notwithstanding.

    you failed to realize that I never expexcted this policy to be solely a burden on the teacher. Remember that I specifically stated that teachers need to be supported if this policy were to be mandated by reduced class sizes, training, etc..
    Oh here we go, yet another reason to reduce class sizes and take more PD holidays. I knew there must be an angle here somewhere. So now we have the motivation for this "no zeros" intervention. Teachers being able to perform roles well outside their area of expertise chasing down assignments, investigating, and playing social worker. Will they get " missed assignment investigating days" where they can do this and hire replacements to teach the class? Just wondering.

    Your primary concern in teachers being overloaded is the secondary concern of the value of this policy. But that brings us back to posts at the beginning meaning we came full circle.

    I think we are done here.
    Well it seems even by your admission that this will end up being quite a bit of created work load that its a primary concern for anybody else but teachers that happen to want this extra sideline. Maybe theres OT in it..Or extra staff hires.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-09-2012 at 12:55 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  44. #144
    grish
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    Replacement. You have a very warped idea of teachers responsibilities. We call home and we follow up with students' legal guardians all the time. That communication is a requirement your personal opinion not withstanding. Teachers aren't social workers but when there is evidence that students are dealing with something personal, teachers should contact the social workers or the school psychologists that the board provides.

    It is actually disturbing that you didn't know that teachers are required and very commonly do concern themselves with the children under their care.

    Btw, PD is not a holiday but that description betrays your personal attitude towards professional responsibilities for continual self improvement and education. This alone makes me question whether your background is actually in psych or you are superficially connected to that field by marriage or as an administrator.

    But I think this is the time to end. I have said everything I was going to say on the subject and now we are going to go in circles.

    Cheers.


    Ps "extra OT in this" LOL.
    Last edited by grish; 22-09-2012 at 05:45 AM.

  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Replacement. You have a very warped idea of teachers responsibilities. We call home and we follow up with students' legal guardians all the time. That communication is a requirement your personal opinion not withstanding. Teachers aren't social workers but when there is evidence that students are dealing with something personal, teachers should contact the social workers or the school psychologists that the board provides.

    It is actually disturbing that you didn't know that teachers are required and very commonly do concern themselves with the children under their care.

    Btw, PD is not a holiday but that description betrays your personal attitude towards professional responsibilities for continual self improvement and education. This alone makes me question whether your background is actually in psych or you are superficially connected to that field by marriage or as an administrator.

    But I think this is the time to end. I have said everything I was going to say on the subject and now we are going to go in circles.

    Cheers.


    Ps "extra OT in this" LOL.
    Just for clarity I'm familiar with the School positions that work with children and families and for instance Family Liason workers. Oddly enough given how this discussion has gone I had a role in advocating school boards having some trained workers in these positions nearly 25 yrs ago.

    So I agree with SCHOOLS having this role with students as needed. But for me this should primarily be the role of trained specific staff, and School counselors and not classroom teachers. imo teachers role should extend to making ph calls, meeting with parents(that come to the school for this) and referring to the appropriate staff and specialists. Hope this is clear.

    Anyway I think we both went a little sideways in our discussion which can happen a lot in online debate, I do encourage you to go beyond your own familiarity and like of the "no zeros" ruling and really dive deeper into it both for your own analysis and so that you can do a better job explaining policy like this to stakeholders, students, parents. You, teachers everywhere, schools, imo, could do a much better job communicating information on changes on policy. This has been a PR mess.

    cheers
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  46. #146
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Anyway I think we both went a little sideways in our discussion which can happen a lot in online debate, I do encourage you to go beyond your own familiarity and like of the "no zeros" ruling and really dive deeper into it both for your own analysis and so that you can do a better job explaining policy like this to stakeholders, students, parents. You, teachers everywhere, schools, imo, could do a much better job communicating information on changes on policy. This has been a PR mess.

    cheers
    alright. time to put this baby to bed. I would likewise encourage you to consider the intent and the practice of the policy and to delve deeper into the role of the school and the teacher.

    One thing that I will completely agree with you is the PR stuff and the communication, although any communication in changes to education system is an uphill battle. everyone who has gone to school (i.e everyone) has their own past to entrench their opinions. Any change is a tough sell and is bound to generate at least an initial uproar.

  47. #147

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    Sorry, I know you wanted to wrap this up, but this just in the Journal:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...218/story.html


    Dorval was fired after pleading his case at a hearing with Schmidt last week. In his three-page ruling, the superintendent said the teacher was being terminated for “repeated acts of insubordination, unprofessional conduct, and refusal to obey lawful orders” subsequent to the initial suspension he received in May.
    Schmidt also accused Dorval of having “a cavalier attitude toward me” during the hearing, and contempt for his principal.
    The more I read on this the more problems I have with the firing. Schmidt is just looking like a donkey at this point.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  48. #148

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    The funny thing is that the school that re-hired him is exactly the one I cannot remember really giving zeros about thirty to thirty-five years ago.

    Things change.

  49. #149
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    Well it doesn't surprise me that the superintendent's letter is painting Dorval in a negative light, otherwise how would he be able to justify firing him in the first place.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  50. #150

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    An update:

    Parents continuing to oppose no zero policy.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...831/story.html
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  51. #151
    grish
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    An update: Staples has not changed his mind, but the teachers and educators are speaking out (see comments below the story). Btw, none of these people are me

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...252/story.html

  52. #152
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    Default EPSB adopts new policy that gives zero

    "Zeros are back across the entire Edmonton Public School Board according to a new draft policy that will be implemented next year.
    "What we proposed is to make sure that it's clear that students can receive grades from D's to A's and from 0's to 100," said board chair Sarah Hoffman.

    "Students can earn zeros in Edmonton Public Schools and we think it's important to make sure that's stated in the actual policy."

    "We're not going to let you off the hook by not doing an assignment. We want to make sure teachers create opportunities to demonstrate your knowledge, that students know that that's the expectation that they follow through and complete their assignments and that we give them every opportunity to succeed."

    Next Tuesday the trustees will introduce the new grading policy to the public. Following that over the next six weeks will be spent gauging public opinion on line. They're also planning a phone-in town hall meeting on a date still to be set up early in the new year.
    The grading system gained national attention when a no zero policy at Ross Sheppard led to the dismissal of a teacher when he wanted to give that grade to students who failed to complete their work. (sj)"

    http://www.inews880.com/news/edmonto...spx?ID=1836729

  53. #153
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    Default No-zero teacher feels vindicated by draft policy

    "The Edmonton teacher fired from his job teaching high school science after giving zeros on incomplete assignments says he feels better knowing that so-called no-zero policies may be phased out in the city's public schools.

    “Surprised and very very pleased. It’s not going to help my situation, I’m done in terms of my career. But it will help out my colleagues,” said Lynden Dorval.

    Dorval, who taught physics at Ross Sheppard High School, was suspended from his job in May after refusing to go along with the school’s no-zero policy."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...o-teacher.html

  54. #154
    grish
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    well, take a step forward, then take a step back... unfortunate that public opinion flamed by half-ignorant columnists has played a role in this.

  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    well, take a step forward, then take a step back... unfortunate that public opinion flamed by half-ignorant columnists has played a role in this.
    Columnists who report what they hear from the general public, who was overwhelmingly (something like 98%) supportive of zero's.

    We accept majority governments with less than 30% of the vote, I think we can put to rest this debate when it's clear that other than a few die hard believers and fringe nutjobs, the entire population wants students held accountable for their work.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    well, take a step forward, then take a step back... unfortunate that public opinion flamed by half-ignorant columnists has played a role in this.
    Columnists who report what they hear from the general public, who was overwhelmingly (something like 98%) supportive of zero's.

    We accept majority governments with less than 30% of the vote, I think we can put to rest this debate when it's clear that other than a few die hard believers and fringe nutjobs, the entire population wants students held accountable for their work.
    this is not an "election" issue. This is a popular opinion-based policy making that people feel they are qualified to participate in because we have all gone to school. Imagine popular opinion being used to justify changes to building codes (because we all have been inside buildings), medical procedures and treatments (because we have all had taken a pill or been given a needle), theories in science (because we can turn the microwave oven on) or economics (because we all know how to shop). There are enough nutjobs out there trying to rally popular support to avoid immunization. Just listen to Tom Cruise on the topic of pain management. If he is able to rally popular support, should medical community follow?

    The initial move away from grading zeros was due to a better understanding of what a grade describes and out of realization that the past practice was habit, not proper assessment. This reversal is a step back to when grades were used inappropriately. 98% of people aparently just don't get the true meaning of grading and grades.

  57. #157
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    ^ You ever think that maybe the 98% have it right and the 2% do not???

  58. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    The initial move away from grading zeros was due to a better understanding of what a grade describes and out of realization that the past practice was habit, not proper assessment.
    Nope. The effectiveness of the "no-zero" idea has absolutely no academic research to back it up. It's all based on conjecture and an individual's own bias.

    Good move on reversing this decision - experiments like this have no place in our kids' education.

  59. #159
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    ^ You ever think that maybe the 98% have it right and the 2% do not???
    not this time.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    The initial move away from grading zeros was due to a better understanding of what a grade describes and out of realization that the past practice was habit, not proper assessment.
    Nope. The effectiveness of the "no-zero" idea has absolutely no academic research to back it up. It's all based on conjecture and an individual's own bias.

    Good move on reversing this decision - experiments like this have no place in our kids' education.
    "research"?

    Here is a problem with assessment: Determine and assign a grade to represent the amount of knowledge a student has.

    Solution to this problem: Collect evidence of all kinds showing that knowledge.

    When teacher is not able to collect evidence of knowledge, assigning a grade of zero (meaning the student has no knowledge) is not appropriate.

    What exactly do you expect in a way of research? Do we also need to research and collect public opinion on whether distance should be measured using meters and when you cannot measure, you should just say "zero"?

    Please show me research that says giving zeros has ever improved education and had some sort of reasoned thought behind it.

  61. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    ^ You ever think that maybe the 98% have it right and the 2% do not???
    not this time.
    That's ok, the new policies being put in place will serve the greater population while you cry in the corner. Enjoy!
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  62. #162
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    ^ You ever think that maybe the 98% have it right and the 2% do not???
    not this time.
    That's ok, the new policies being put in place will serve the greater population while you cry in the corner. Enjoy!
    They don't "serve" at all. The majority is not affected by this "policy". The "policy" does nothing about correcting that which it aims to correct. And so, this is neither to cry about nor to enjoy. It is just something that is for all the wrong, ignorant reasons.

  63. #163

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    Well, at least the 98% that are glad the zero percent policy is over with can vote some of the knuckleheads off the school board in the next elections. Karma's a b*tch t times.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  64. #164
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    as i previously said, only in education does this policy by public opinion flies no matter how absurd that opinion is.

  65. #165
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    Yeah, imagine that...the public actually having a say in how to prepare our children for the real world in which if you don't produce work then you suffer the consequences for it.

    Zero policy = poor work ethic?
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=31882
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  66. #166

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    ^Yeah, the complete gall of us wanting a say in how a publicly funded school system should be run. Do they expect us to just hand over the school tax portion of our taxes and not have a say on how we want kids to be educated. Here's zero public taxes for not handing out zero's. See how long that lasts.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  67. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    The initial move away from grading zeros was due to a better understanding of what a grade describes and out of realization that the past practice was habit, not proper assessment.
    Nope. The effectiveness of the "no-zero" idea has absolutely no academic research to back it up. It's all based on conjecture and an individual's own bias.

    Good move on reversing this decision - experiments like this have no place in our kids' education.
    "research"?

    Here is a problem with assessment: Determine and assign a grade to represent the amount of knowledge a student has.

    Solution to this problem: Collect evidence of all kinds showing that knowledge.

    When teacher is not able to collect evidence of knowledge, assigning a grade of zero (meaning the student has no knowledge) is not appropriate.

    What exactly do you expect in a way of research? Do we also need to research and collect public opinion on whether distance should be measured using meters and when you cannot measure, you should just say "zero"?

    Please show me research that says giving zeros has ever improved education and had some sort of reasoned thought behind it.
    Are you a teacher, or have a university degree in education?

    I do. I have taken full courses on assessment practices. There are textbooks available on the subject that you can read if you are interested in the research you are asking me to produce.

    You seem to think that formal assessment is all about measuring knowledge, but in truth it's not. A large part of assessment is about completing tasks in a timely fashion.


    EDIT - the "no-zero" grading scheme was invented by one guy who wrote a book, not founded on anything except his own personal opinion. He is not a researcher, and does not hold an advanced degree in Education Policy Studies, not Educational Psychology. In my opinion he is the "Dr. Phil" of the education world - a self-appointed "expert" who has his own simple fixes for everything, but actually gives completely worthless advice to people who have any idea about what they are doing.
    Last edited by MrOilers; 11-12-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  68. #168
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    ^ I've taught those courses... You didn't pay attention.

  69. #169
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    I feel bad for your students

  70. #170
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Yeah, the complete gall of us wanting a say in how a publicly funded school system should be run. Do they expect us to just hand over the school tax portion of our taxes and not have a say on how we want kids to be educated. Here's zero public taxes for not handing out zero's. See how long that lasts.
    public has a say in what should be valued in education be it math or art or whatnot. The public does not in general understand the theories of education, the research that has gone into it, etc.. Similarly, the public through opinion polling does not decide the fire codes, medical interventions, and a host of other issues. Just imagine arguing "you let me decide where I can and cannot pour water on kitchen fire or else I will hold back my tax dollars"...

  71. #171
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    I feel bad for your students
    don't. I've won awards and have always been recognized for doing a good job educating. I actually expect my students to do their work, not lower their grades so I do less.

    Since when are personal attacks allowed here anyways?

  72. #172
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    So if students continually do not hand in their work, what do you do?

    Guess what happens in the real world when people don't hand in their work on time?

  73. #173
    grish
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    ^ They do. They have no choice. This is part of learning. You must do work to learn things. It really depends on who we are talking about. Junior high, high school, college, or university students and the reasons they are there taking the courses.

    All my students get a variety of assignments that include one-on-one "show me what you can do" assessments. These are impossible to refuse and they must get done. I modify assignments and change them up to make them interesting and relevant.

    When some do not hand in, I determine the reasons. If other evidence of their knowledge is present and reasons provide reasonable explanation for missed work, the most appropriate thing to do is to forgive the assignment meaning other evidence of knowledge is a reasonable estimate of what they know. I routinely test in a number of ways so a single missed piece of work is not that big of a deal.

    Then there are calls home, discussion with sports coaches, schools counselling services, and so on. This is not a one approach fits all situations game. At university and college the rules are quite different, but also there is a very different amount of personal investment (in real $$ sense). Basically, show me what you can do and what you know approach works great in most cases. Additional chances also work.

    At the end of the day, and after all interventions, we are talking about a single student who continues to refuse to do work. I assure you that handing in work for that student is the least of the problems. (S)he needs help with life first before we start teaching them these "life" lessons. By the way, the way to teach the life lessons is not to fail time and time again until they get it right. The way to teach is to be patient. That is the basic qualities of a good teacher. The teacher who hands out zeros is not really a teacher. Just some guy with a degree. The student is left to learn on his or her own. It's that type of person who is not deserving of a tax-funded salary.

  74. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    ^ I've taught those courses... You didn't pay attention.
    I have disagreed with instructors on this issue more than once (in my opinion, some of my Education profs are the very worst I have had). In addition, only some of them actually buy into this nonsense like you have.

    You like "no zeros" for work not done, but I think that is bunk because it removes accountability.
    Last edited by MrOilers; 20-12-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  75. #175
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    One child struggles on her own but gets the work done. The other is not as interested in conforming, but attends his classes for the most part, and hangs in until the last moment to hand in most of the assignments, gets his zeros for not handing in some assignments. The second child tests well. The first one does not. I can see the second child actually learned as much or more, but got the lower marks. In our case the learning was not all about being accountable.

  76. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by workworkwork View Post
    In our case the learning was not all about being accountable.
    But meeting deadlines was.

  77. #177
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    ^ I've taught those courses... You didn't pay attention.
    I have disagreed with instructors on this issue more than once (in my opinion, some of my Education profs are the very worst I have had). In addition, only some of them actually buy into this nonsense like you have.

    You like "no zeros" for work not done, but I think that is bunk because it removes accountability.
    claiming knowledge gained from courses where you had disagreed with what professors had to teach you basically confirms that you did not really pay any attention and you had essentially learned nothing. Now THIS deserves a zero as there is actual evidence of no learning taking place.

  78. #178
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by workworkwork View Post
    In our case the learning was not all about being accountable.
    But meeting deadlines was.
    perhaps there should be a "meeting deadlines" outcome in the programs of studies. Maybe a whole course on work-place work-ethic. That way this particular skill can actually be assessed. Advocate for that if you must.

  79. #179

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    Looks like Camrose School District wants to go down the same road as EPSB.
    Dumb and Dumber
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  80. #180
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    Default Edmonton teachers can give zeros

    "After a process of public consultation, Edmonton public school trustees have approved a student assessment policy that allows teachers to hand out zeros.

    The revised student assessment, achievement and growth policy states student marks can include percentages from zero to 100 per cent and letter grades of A, B, C and D."

    http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/64...an-give-zeros/

  81. #181
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    That's great news.

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