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Thread: Cars, SUVs - brand benefits

  1. #1

    Default Cars, SUVs - brand benefits

    I'm going to be shopping for another vehicle and in the end will probably get another SUV. Just wondering what people's views are towards the various brands. SUVs like Audi Q7, VW Touraeg, Mazda CX7, Mercedes GL (diesel), Ford Explorer, BMW X5, etc. Basically the mid-sized SUVs.

    Since all can be loaded with all kinds of features and reliability isn't as much of an issue as in the past, I'm wondering what people use to differentiate between them all (besides the obvious - price). Even on the safety front it seems like splitting hairs a lot of the time.

  2. #2
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    You're right, it is getting harder to differentiate the brands these day. Even things like smooth ride comfort and quiet cabins that use to be restricted to the luxury brands are pretty standard on all cars these days. The build and material quality will still be a bit better on brands like BMW, but overall most brands do very well at that these days as well.

    If you're really pressed to find differences between the cars I would consider resale value and the carrying costs of each vehicle. If I remember right, the Q7 won some awards for best resale value of crossovers last year. Whereas the Ford Explorer has historically been miserable at retaining its value. Just look at the Kelly bluebook / other sources online.

    For carrying costs there's many factors. Obviously fuel efficiency is a big one, and any modern diesel will generally whoop a gas engine at that. You do loose some performance to the diesel torque curve, but modern blutech / TDI engines minimize that somewhat. You also get amazing range on them on the highway. All the suvs you listed except for the Mazda and Ford come in diesel variants. That's probably a major choice to make. Especially as the gas variants of most of those suvs will want premium gas. Also maintenance to consider. Although all of those are good, reliable cars, you will generally always pay more to maintain a European brand car over an American or Asian car (pricier parts, pricier labour). Finally, differences in insurance costs to consider. Over the lifetime of a car, all those difference can add up to a considerable amount. Worth pricing out.

    A few personal notes on the car you've listed:
    - (I'm assuming you're talking about buying new) the CX-7 I believe was discontinued after the 2012 model year, so you might get a deal on any left in the dealerships. However also consider that you'll need to buy top models of the Mazda and Ford to get all wheel drive (the greatest thing you can get for Edmonton winters in my personal opinion, regardless if you're looking at cars or suvs). The European SUVs come with it standard.
    -As Audi is just a division of VW, the Q7 and Touraeg are very similarly designed vehicles (almost the same engine, etc). So you will largely be paying a premium for the Audi badge. That said, one of my best friends just got a Q7 and she loves it.
    -Be aware that the X5, as with all BMWs, come with run flat tires. Which I can tell you from personal experience (unless you really, really never want to touch your car for any reason) do nothing but to line your BMW dealer's pockets if you get a flat. Some of the other cars may come with them, I'm not aware, but they are about 5x the price of a normal tire to replace. Unlikely to happen, but something to be aware of.
    Last edited by halocore; 04-01-2013 at 04:11 AM.

  3. #3

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    There's also intangible costs and benefits. I bought a CR-v and a friend told me to "put some pants on", because it was a chick's car. I heard the same thing from someone else when I said I might pick up a used Beetle for the fun of it. "But that's a chick's car." My view is that if I like the looks of it, I like the qualities, what do I care what other's perceive it to be.

    However, I know that if I went out and bought a Range Rover (I won't. though I like the looks, the reliability and the new owner corp. scares me.) there are costs that could affect me in the job. People's perceptions of you can hurt you - when they employ you, work with you or deal with you. (Just as with sex, there's an expectation that you'll buy within your socio-economic 'class'.) On that issue I haven't figured out how to "use" that brand perception to my benefit rather than to my detriment. I'm not even sure what those perceptions are.


    What sort of person (perceptually from the outside) buys a Porsche Cayenne, a Range Rover Sport, Mercedes GL450...



    .
    Last edited by KC; 04-01-2013 at 08:11 AM.

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    Something to note with the BMW is the once yearly (free) oil change as well. Also you'll have to run premium in it (if you don't, it knows and will tattle on you to the dealer mechanic when you take it in for service).

    I'd say just go drive the ones you're interested in and hear each pitch. Just make sure that you know how to say no if you're going to do it that way.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I'm going to be shopping for another vehicle and in the end will probably get another SUV. Just wondering what people's views are towards the various brands. SUVs like Audi Q7, VW Touraeg, Mazda CX7, Mercedes GL (diesel), Ford Explorer, BMW X5, etc. Basically the mid-sized SUVs.

    Since all can be loaded with all kinds of features and reliability isn't as much of an issue as in the past, I'm wondering what people use to differentiate between them all (besides the obvious - price). Even on the safety front it seems like splitting hairs a lot of the time.
    Not to stereotype but in my experience, consumers usually fall into three categories that usually overlap. You can think of it more in terms of a ternary diagram, if you know what I mean. Categories are:

    1) Spec-buyers. These consumers look for quantitative measurements such as cargo space, fuel economy, etc to compare vehicles. These consumers will also usually prioritize features based on personal needs - ie driving alot for work, or require cargo space for kids' sport equipment. These consumers in general are more detail oriented when it comes to pricing and are more logic-driven than emotion-driven.

    2) Brand-buyers. These consumers buy based on perceived brand quality. Ie - will not buy Kia/Hyundai/Ford, etc. despite recent improvements in car quality. Will buy an Audi/BMW/Benz because it's an Audi/BMW/Benz. These consumers will usually willing to pay a premium for the brand.

    3) Impulse-buyers. These consumers usually buy based off aesthetics, color, styling, or overall "feel", including the overall enjoyment of driving. Emotion and qualitative observation plays a large part of this purchase. Within reason, these consumers will spend more on a vehicle that they are attracted to, as opposed to a similarly spec'd vehicle that they don't. Car enthusiasts tend to fall into this category.
    Last edited by tsumetai; 04-01-2013 at 09:45 AM.

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    I personally like:

    - Hyundai Veracruz
    - New Nissan Pathfinder
    - Ford Edge
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

  7. #7

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    The diesel version of the Jeep Grand Cherokee might be worth waiting for. The new Grand Cherokee's are built on a Mercedes ML platform and will be available with 8 speed transmissions.

    Leaps and bounds ahead of what Jeep used to offer.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    I personally like:

    - Hyundai Veracruz
    The Santa Fe is also great... I write a lot of insurance for them both and they have very good rates with the companies I deal with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by halocore
    Some of the other cars may come with them, I'm not aware, but they are about 5x the price of a normal tire to replace.
    That's a ridiculous exaggeration. For the same size and spec, run flats might be 20-30% more expensive. BMW doesn't have run flats to line dealer's pockets (why the hell would you be buying tires from a dealer anyways, unless you like paying a massive premium?). They have run flats because they've eliminated spares to save weight and space.

    And there's nothing stopping you from switching to regular tires after the run flats wear out. However if you do get a flat, you'll need a tow of course.

    Overall I agree though that just about every manufacturer is making pretty good vehicles these days, and that's there not a lot of justification for buying higher end vehicles other than your own preferences and taste. I'm not a big fan of Audi or Mercedes though. Their quality/reliability do not match up against most of the other major manufacturers. And as mentioned, VW's are pretty much identical to Audis and don't carry nearly the premium, but still have reliability issues. Or at least they did in the recent past. VW's reputation for quality hasn't been earned for the better part of a decade.

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    The way I see it, buy something you LOVE... not like and be done with it.
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  11. #11

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    I've been an import guy my whole driving life but lately have taken an interest in Ford. Huh? who knew?
    Currently own a second generation Ford Sport Trac (and yes had to tolerate the 'get a real truck' comments). Debated between this and a Honda Ridgeline (always liked Honda products). Feature to feature, option to option, similar everything, the Ford won out by being $10,000 cheaper for similar Honda unit.
    Back to SUV. The 2013 Ford Escape is the replacement for GF's Mitsu Outlander. Loaded with features and Eco-boost engine is pretty neat. For what she uses it for, it's perfect.
    Bottom line is, buy the vehicle based on your specific criteria. that's really the only one that matters.
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    KC, my choice of the cars you listed would be the VW Touareg TDI followed by the Audi Q7 and Mercedes GL. I generally try to stay away from prestige nameplates because of their connotation in the workplace (I work for the public sector, so this is totally different for those that work for a private firm). Anyhow I ordered a Touareg TDI a week ago after driving and X5, Q5 (I didn't want the extra row of seats in the Q7) and Mercedes GLK (The GLK BlueTec Diesel variant should be available next month).

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mediabug View Post
    KC, my choice of the cars you listed would be the VW Touareg TDI followed by the Audi Q7 and Mercedes GL. I generally try to stay away from prestige nameplates because of their connotation in the workplace (I work for the public sector, so this is totally different for those that work for a private firm). Anyhow I ordered a Touareg TDI a week ago after driving and X5, Q5 (I didn't want the extra row of seats in the Q7) and Mercedes GLK (The GLK BlueTec Diesel variant should be available next month).
    Yeah if you're public sector, whatever you say or do WILL be used against you. The contractor or businessman that takes cash under the table, over expenses, etc. though...

    Anyway it's those connotations that go with different brands that fascinates me. Eg. Some cars get keyed while others don't. Things like that. I have an Excursion as a tow vehicle. It got crucified in the media yet it's essentially just a 3/4 ton ford pickup with a cap. One flies under the radar despite massive sales volumes while the other gets attacked by the environmentalists as the anti-Christ and production gets cancelled despite demand and utility.

    So if someone buys a BMW or a Kia, or Mercedes, or whatever, what kind of typecasting do they set themselves up for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mediabug View Post
    KC, my choice of the cars you listed would be the VW Touareg TDI followed by the Audi Q7 and Mercedes GL. I generally try to stay away from prestige nameplates because of their connotation in the workplace (I work for the public sector, so this is totally different for those that work for a private firm). Anyhow I ordered a Touareg TDI a week ago after driving and X5, Q5 (I didn't want the extra row of seats in the Q7) and Mercedes GLK (The GLK BlueTec Diesel variant should be available next month).
    Yeah if you're public sector, whatever you say or do WILL be used against you. The contractor or businessman that takes cash under the table, over expenses, etc. though...

    Anyway it's those connotations that go with different brands that fascinates me. Eg. Some cars get keyed while others don't. Things like that. I have an Excursion as a tow vehicle. It got crucified in the media yet it's essentially just a 3/4 ton ford pickup with a cap. One flies under the radar despite massive sales volumes while the other gets attacked by the environmentalists as the anti-Christ and production gets cancelled despite demand and utility.

    So if someone buys a BMW or a Kia, or Mercedes, or whatever, what kind of typecasting do they set themselves up for?
    Doesn't matter whether you work in the private sector or public sector - if your vehicle is better than your boss's vehicle, you can bet it could affect your salary increases, bonus, and your long-term career.

    When times get tough, who will the organization get rid of? Imagine two employees with the same productivity - one drives an Audi to work, and the other drives a Kia. They will get rid of the Audi driver, since there is a 'perception' that he/she has money, and can survive without a job.

    Many years ago, I had a mentor who was a Divisional Controller for a Fortune 500 corporation. He taught me this lesson early on.

    I've seen this same mistake occur for so many years, so many times, by so many naive employees.

    Seasoned employees know this by experience or perceiving. They will drive the beater to work, and drive the high end Jaguar in the evenings and weekends.
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    Default Toyota recalls 2 million cars.. they are too boring

    TOKYO, JAPAN (The Global Edition) Toyota Motor Corp is recalling about 2.77 million vehicles worldwide because they are way too boring, Japanese media reports.

    http://www.theglobaledition.com/toyo...ay-too-boring/
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mediabug View Post
    KC, my choice of the cars you listed would be the VW Touareg TDI followed by the Audi Q7 and Mercedes GL.
    Nice vehicles, but the "cost" is wasting much of your life getting them serviced and repaired, I had nothing but grief with my audi, and constantly see people who own them frustrated by on-going mechanical (e.g. brakes) and electrical issues (like blown heaters, etc).

    If you want premium, I'd say go Lexus, Infiniti or Acura. Good brand cache (not as great perhaps), excellent performance (esp. infiniti), comfort (Lexus) and utility (e.g Acura MDX), but best of all, bullet proof reliability. My Infiniti goes once a year to LubeX for instant service and never breaks down, its heaven compared to prior experiences.

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    ^
    True
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mediabug View Post
    KC, my choice of the cars you listed would be the VW Touareg TDI followed by the Audi Q7 and Mercedes GL.
    Nice vehicles, but the "cost" is wasting much of your life getting them serviced and repaired, I had nothing but grief with my audi, and constantly see people who own them frustrated by on-going mechanical (e.g. brakes) and electrical issues (like blown heaters, etc).

    If you want premium, I'd say go Lexus, Infiniti or Acura. Good brand cache (not as great perhaps), excellent performance (esp. infiniti), comfort (Lexus) and utility (e.g Acura MDX), but best of all, bullet proof reliability. My Infiniti goes once a year to LubeX for instant service and never breaks down, its heaven compared to prior experiences.
    Hated Audi as well, they got me so mad one day with their crappy service and attitudes that I actually rolled into another dealer and bought a different car just so I could stop dealing with them.

    Got a Cadillac and have had nothing but good experiences.

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    Have you considered a Subaru? They are truly AWD all the time, as opposed to most cars with AWD that kicks in when needed. Plus their boxer engines allow for a lower center of gravity. Both factors seem to give Subarus a better feel during winter driving, at least from my experience.
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    x 3 on the experiences with Audi/ VW... Have had numerous friends who've had Jettas and A4's... great driving cars but the mechanical and electrical headaches and bad service experiences others have had with them put them firmly in the "do not buy" category.

    I had an Audi 5000 Turbo way back in the day... super nice car to drive, but had to give it up because it became very troublesome and unreliable. Seems the new ones are not that different.

    For my money, I still think the best buy in a standard sized SUV is a 4Runner. When I decide to finally put my Tacoma out to pasture that's what I'll be buying.

    I did rent a new Explorer for a trip to BC lat summer.... and have to say that it was actually a pretty nice car too. If I wasn't so brand loyal to Toyota I'd consider one of those as well... the only question being whether it can last as long as a 4Runner
    Last edited by 240GLT; 05-01-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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  21. #21

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    ^ Funny, I'd read a number of touareg forum postings talking about the horrors of VW and Audi service departments. People absolutely love the vehicles but the service departments kill any potential brand loyalty.

    Having had several Toyotas, my V6 4Runner was the worst in design, drivability and reliability, needing new rear springs after a trip to Alaska (2 people and a tent so it wasn't heavily loaded), suffering a $1,000 computer chip failure, failing headlights, crappy seating, and extremely poor horsepower-weight ratio making it a miserable driver in the mountains. Unfortunately, I'd traded off an ok Pathfinder to get it.

    Our Honda Odyssey needed three $5,000 transmissions in 70,000 km of pampered driving by mostly my wife. Plus other little failures like $80-to-change dash light bulbs. And again, crappy, crappy seats! Drove down to Snohomish, Wash. one day and could hardly walk for days.

    I miss my relatively reliable, fun to drive, fast, efficient super-comfortable Saabs! 320,000 km and a clutch and a wiper motor on one, and on the other not much more than a $1,000 chip and a heater control switch in 200,000+km of hard driving on the other. Oh, and a $1,200 stainless steel exhaust system. (The chip failure stranded me in the median during rush hour so thousands of Edmontonians got a totally wrong impression.)
    Last edited by KC; 06-01-2013 at 08:51 AM.

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    I've had a Audi A4 for 10 years. I think the A4 is ok, but will likely not purchase an A5 or A6.

    For repairs, I go see Rob at Westside Auto. Service has been excellent; the best I've had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    ^ Funny, I'd read a number of touareg forum postings talking about the horrors of VW and Audi service departments. People absolutely love the vehicles but the service departments kill any potential brand loyalty.

    Having had several Toyotas, my V6 4Runner was the worst in design, drivability and reliability, needing new rear springs after a trip to Alaska (2 people and a tent so it wasn't heavily loaded), suffering a $1,000 computer chip failure, failing headlights, crappy seating, and extremely poor horsepower-weight ratio making it a miserable driver in the mountains. Unfortunately, I'd traded off an ok Pathfinder to get it.

    Our Honda Odyssey needed three $5,000 transmissions in 70,000 km of pampered driving by mostly my wife. Plus other little failures like $80-to-change dash light bulbs. And again, crappy, crappy seats! Drove down to Snohomish, Wash. one day and could hardly walk for days.

    I miss my relatively reliable, fun to drive, fast, efficient super-comfortable Saabs! 320,000 km and a clutch and a wiper motor on one, and on the other not much more than a $1,000 chip and a heater control switch in 200,000+km of hard driving on the other. Oh, and a $1,200 stainless steel exhaust system. (The chip failure stranded me in the median during rush hour so thousands of Edmontonians got a totally wrong impression.)
    I am suprised at your problems with the 4Runner. My Tacoma (same drivetrain & common parts) now has 380,000 kms and has never skipped a beat. It's not a comfy ride but that's not why I bought it. The whole family has had numerous Toyotas with very few problems as a result.

    My aunt in Vancouver had a 900 SPG. THat was a super nice car... still couldn't beat the longevity of a Volvo though
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Have you considered a Subaru? They are truly AWD all the time, as opposed to most cars with AWD that kicks in when needed. Plus their boxer engines allow for a lower center of gravity. Both factors seem to give Subarus a better feel during winter driving, at least from my experience.
    Subaru is also one of very few options if you want a manual transmission. Fuel economy could be better though.

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    Also keep in mind maintenance for AWD/4WD...
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    The Edmonton Car Show is April 18-21. Wait to decide until you go there are try them all out in one place. Narrow your focus and then go test-drive.

    http://www.edmontonmotorshow.com/

    Per your first post and the choices listed, the Mazda CX-7 met the end of its life in 2012...but the CX-9 is brand-new, a fresh 2nd generation model. Add the Volvo XC60 or XC90 to your list of choices.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Also keep in mind maintenance for AWD/4WD...
    Another annoyance with AWD is the need to keep all 4 of the tires' rolling radiuses within a certain tolerance. One of the tires on my car got a nail and had to be replaced. But since the whole set of tires was half worn, we couldn't actually find anything that would decently match. Ended up having to replace all 4 tires, very expensive.

    My friend had a similar experience with his Subaru a long time ago, except he didn't know and replaced the tire with a new one. Ended up causing some damage to his AWD system since it constantly detected slippage and responded accordingly.

  28. #28

    Default Winter Driving Road Test From Subaru Canada [New Video]

    Thanks @Sonic Death Monkey, the Subaru Legacy is worth checking out, both for looks and features. We recently tested the Subaru Legacy against competition and the Subaru proved to be a winter warrior with AWD & handling. No one can judge you for that! Watch it perform here: http://youtu.be/9k-gAPUUutY

    Check out full details of the Winter Challenge at: http://www.subaru.ca/LegacyWinter

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    I've looked at the Subarus and really liked them. But I haven't test driven one yet. Decent visibly and good ergonomics. I liked the Outback (except the looks) and like the looks of the Legacy but prefer the practability of the wagon styles.

    People with Audis keep dissuading me from buying them so I'll have to check out their reliability. That applies to the VW and Porsche as well I presume. They all get great reviews for drivability. Same issues with the BMWs.

    I'm tending towards the Mercedes GL but there's the problem of foolish perceptions and odd treatment creating issues that I don't want to have to deal with. Mercedes seems to be able to charge a premium for their brand though that I don't understand.
    Last edited by KC; 25-05-2013 at 11:30 AM.

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    We got an Outback last February and have close 9000km in mountain trips since then. The car has been great so far. We upgraded from a Matrix to get better winter driving performance and more room for kids and gear and we've extremely happy on all counts.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    We got an Outback last February and have close 9000km in mountain trips since then. The car has been great so far. We upgraded from a Matrix to get better winter driving performance and more room for kids and gear and we've extremely happy on all counts.
    How's the engine's power? I've only glanced at reviews but by the slow 0-60 ratings, they didn't seem like they have much power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    We got an Outback last February and have close 9000km in mountain trips since then. The car has been great so far. We upgraded from a Matrix to get better winter driving performance and more room for kids and gear and we've extremely happy on all counts.
    How's the engine's power? I've only glanced at reviews but by the slow 0-60 ratings, they didn't seem like they have much power.
    Well, coming from a Matrix the overall power is great in the 2.5L that we got, but the Matrix was pretty anemic so that could be a factor in our impression.

    We have the 6-speed manual transmission.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  33. #33

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    If you're a somewhat handy DIY'er, doing maintenance yourself will decrease your costs of ownership. Oil changes, spark plugs, door seals, etc.

    Especially if you have a Subaru.. both Edmonton dealers quoted me $1800 for the 96,000km service. Check out Scott Subaru in Red Deer, they did it for slightly less than $800. 5 Subies in our family and they all get their major service in Red Deer. Parts is bloody expensive locally, so I order everything from SubaruGenuineParts.com.

    There's a great local Subaru community as well (which I am part of). Not all of us rice out our cars.. personally I didn't think the stock 250hp/250tq of my LegacyGT was enough, so I had Sunny at Airboy Tuning in Calgary add a bunch more, with supporting modifications....

    Audis are a different story altogether. Google "Audi Service Position." Timing belt on an A4 will require you to book 2.5 days off.
    http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng110.shtml
    Equivalent on a Subaru DOHC, about 8 hours.

    They're great if you plan on replacing them after their warranty expires, else expect to pony up loads of cash for regular servicing and major repairs.

  34. #34

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    I'm starting a new job and will need a new vehicle. I'm pretty much fully decided on the Hyundai Santa Fe sport. Damn that's a nice small SUV.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  35. #35

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    Interesting article below.

    Seems people are paying more for more expensive cars but not buying more reliable cars.


    Why the $100,000-and-up car market is booming - The Globe and Mail
    Excerpt:

    “Over the last decade,” says automotive economist Dennis DesRosiers, “the luxury market for new vehicles has increased by about 50 per cent, for used vehicles by about 100 per cent and for parts and service by about 150 per cent. Some brands have grown by twice these levels.”

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle23211263/
    Last edited by KC; 03-03-2015 at 07:12 AM.

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    Merc is kicking arse and taking names both on and off the track, good for them. Shame they are old man cars
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Merc is kicking arse and taking names both on and off the track, good for them. Shame they are old man cars
    And lack the reliability you would expect for the high upfront cost and "luxury" branding. Moreover, 'on the road' does the buyer get anything like they have "on the track"? My Saabs were loads of fun to drive but they weren't jet planes like their so called heritage or advertising highlighted.

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    ^ MB isn't anywhere close to being an exclusively luxury brand though. They sell quite a wide variety of economy and basic cars in other markets. Benz does have a fairly decent track record of reliability overall

    Now Jag on the other hand..
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    Merc AMG has really up'd their game though... but still old man car.
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    My neighbours' black on black S500 V12 is pure sexy
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    my two favorite brands are Ford and Hyundai.
    Good vehicles, can get for a good used price, reliable.
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

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    a person spending over 100k on a car probably isnt as concerned about reliability as someone spending 20k on a corolla.
    be offended! figure out why later...

  43. #43
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    To an extent sure, but everyone still wants good value and reliability.

    My Honda S2000 is a 2002 with 150k on it, other than fluid and brakes, it has had no issues.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    a person spending over 100k on a car probably isnt as concerned about reliability as someone spending 20k on a corolla.
    For the most part true, it's more of a hazard for 2nd hand buyers of high end cars. I think a lot of people get tempted to buy a used high end vehicle because many high end cars depreciate really fast. Then they realize what a pain it is to maintain that car.

    Actual car enthusiasts though will put up with a lot of headaches for the car that they really like. My old Volvo is quirky and stubborn, and I love it.

    But I'd never rely on it as a primary driver. That's what Toyotas are for.
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    I recall a buddy in Vancouver who looked at a 2008 F430 Scud and putting aside the low 6 fig USED price tag, reported annual maintenance was around $7-14,000.00.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I recall a buddy in Vancouver who looked at a 2008 F430 Scud and putting aside the low 6 fig USED price tag, reported annual maintenance was around $7-14,000.00.
    He must have been putting a lot of miles on it, if that's the case. I know several people with similar cars, and that range would be the required maintenance every 3-5 years when the belts need to be changed (regardless of mileage). I think newer Ferrari's have gotten away from that as well, so the maintenance shouldn't be as bad.

    But yeah, a car that was originally purchased for 250-300k is going to need some expensive maintenance.

    What's been really interesting is seeing the prices sky rocket for older, classic cars that were of limited vintage. Like BMW M1's, for example. 5 years ago you could buy one for 150-200k, depending on the kind of shape it was in. These days they're worth double that, or more.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 03-03-2015 at 02:59 PM.

  47. #47
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    Good miles and track days.
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    Hmm a F430 Scud SHOULD sky rocket
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud

  49. #49
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    ha... but true actually, they are becoming quite rare.
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  50. #50

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    Anyone have any experience or knowledge of Ford Explorer 6 cylinders?. I think they bought out the 6 cylinder in 2012.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  51. #51

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    ^I don't, but in general I avoid turbo's (like ecoboost for example, if that's what you mean). In real world driving I don't think they add much to fuel economy or performance (see for example how GM and RAM's truck V8's are outperforming V6 ecoboost's), but they add complexity / maintenance risk. Maybe I'll bend my views for the Lexus NX, given how reliable Lexus is.

  52. #52
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    Always go NA for reliability, but don't underestimate the incorporation of turbos in modern cars.
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  53. #53
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    Biggest problem with turbos is getting rid of the heat prior to shutting it down. Back in the olden days on the oil cooled turbos as soon as you shut the engine off, you lose lubrication and cooling, and as the turbo spins at high RPM it would cause wear on the bearings.

    Nowadays turbos are pretty good I still prefer the American Garrets but Mitsubishi builds a quality unit as well... I still reccomend that, if you're coming off a long drive or hard driving, to let the engine idle down for 30 seconds before you shut it off.

    I blew the turbo in a Volvo 760GLE-TD going up snowshed hill on the Coquihalla many years back. That was because I was hammering it up the hill under full boost for waaaaayyy too long. Stupid kid.

    I've owned several turbocharged Volvos since and havern't had an issue
    Last edited by 240GLT; 04-03-2015 at 03:19 PM.
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    Turbo timer, done.
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    Climbing a big hill with the go-pedal mashed to the floor the whole time is something a truck or SUV engine should be able to do without issue. These vehicles are marketed in part for their ability to tow stuff, and if a turbocharged engine is going to limit that I'd buy something else.

  56. #56

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    Well I think I have been talked out of a 6 cylinder Explorer although I have always liked Explorers. They don't make them in 4 cylinder (or do they)? and I don't want an 8. Will probably be buying a new SUV in the next couple of years. I like the dashboard on the Explorer. I know people get way hyped into vehicles but I cant believe I said that about a dashboard. I also like the vehicle but usually getting from A to B is about as attached as I get to a vehicle.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  57. #57

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    ^You might be OK, just had a quick look, I think they have a NA V6 (non-turbo), and a turbocharged 4 cylinder (would avoid). Just avoid "ecoboost" (IMO). I like the way they look, they don't do great on reviews though (not bad, just not great).

    The Explorer is available in either front-wheel drive or full-time all-wheel drive. At first only one engine was available: the 290 hp (216 kW) (255 lbft (346 Nm) of torque) 3.5 liter TiVCT (Twin independent Variable Camshaft Timing) V-6 attached to either the 6-speed 6F automatic or 6-speed 6F SelectShift automatic.

    Soon thereafter, Ford offered the economical 240 hp (179 kW) (270 lbft (370 Nm) of torque) 2 liter EcoBoost turbocharged, direct-injected I-4 mated to the 6-speed 6F automatic. The I-4 engine is not available with the optional 6-speed 6F SelectShift automatic, and will only be available in front-wheel drive.[32][33]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer
    Last edited by moahunter; 04-03-2015 at 05:25 PM.

  58. #58

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    Well I'm going to rethink it. Got a couple of years to do that and I do know I will not be buying a bicycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Maybe I'll bend my views for the Lexus NX, given how reliable Lexus is.
    Thank god they are finally putting that 2.5 V6 out to pasture. If the engine is good I think I'm gonna get the IS series with that 2.0 turbo. Always leaned Toyota but hated that gutless v6.
    be offended! figure out why later...

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^You might be OK, just had a quick look, I think they have a NA V6 (non-turbo), and a turbocharged 4 cylinder (would avoid). Just avoid "ecoboost" (IMO). I like the way they look, they don't do great on reviews though (not bad, just not great).

    The Explorer is available in either front-wheel drive or full-time all-wheel drive. At first only one engine was available: the 290 hp (216 kW) (255 lbft (346 Nm) of torque) 3.5 liter TiVCT (Twin independent Variable Camshaft Timing) V-6 attached to either the 6-speed 6F automatic or 6-speed 6F SelectShift automatic.

    Soon thereafter, Ford offered the economical 240 hp (179 kW) (270 lbft (370 Nm) of torque) 2 liter EcoBoost turbocharged, direct-injected I-4 mated to the 6-speed 6F automatic. The I-4 engine is not available with the optional 6-speed 6F SelectShift automatic, and will only be available in front-wheel drive.[32][33]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer
    I'm not to bothered about it being economical as I don't drive to work each day. Usually I drive 6 cylinders but I would maybe by a 4 if I though it had any power. It would definitely have to have 4 way drive fairly big trunk, for junk in the trunk. I doubt there are many SUV's that have good 4 cylinder engines. I had an Explorer before and it had very good overdrive on it.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Priceonomics issued a cost of vehicle ownership, worst BMW, best Toyota. I'm surprised that BMW is $5,000 more than the next highest group of vehicles. A summary of the information is on the link below;
    http://twocents.lifehacker.com/the-c...ver-1781639773

  62. #62

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    ^interesting, although that is cost of maintenance. German cars have stupidly expensive maintenance requirements (like changing brake fluid every two years, etc.).

  63. #63

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    Mine are 19 (Subaru) and 22 (VW) on the list. Then there's my Ford Excursion (13) which I almost don't drive and so almost don't maintain. Exclude it and I don't think I've ever owned vehicle names in the top half (1-15) of the most expensive to maintain.

    It's interesting that VW is 19 and Audi is at 5.
    Last edited by KC; 10-06-2016 at 03:24 PM.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Mine are 19 (Subaru) and 22 (VW) on the list. Then there's my Ford Excursion (13) which I almost don't drive and so almost don't maintain. Exclude it and I don't think I've ever owned vehicle names in the top half (1-15) of the most expensive to maintain.

    It's interesting that VW is 19 and Audi is at 5.
    One thing that would bump Audi up a bunch is the AWD - majority of their cars have it, while not all of the VW's do. I know my A3 if I were to get the AWD and DSG serviced at Audi it would be over a grand.

    I have driven VW/Audi now for the better part of a decade and they have been fantastic - GTI, then A3 followed by my current 07 A3.

    Richard at Dubsport has been my go to guy and saved me thousands over the dealership for service. But overall aside from regular oil changes the cars have all been great, its just the transmission service that gets pricey since I service the awd myself.

  65. #65

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    The Subaru is going to be going on the block soon and so I’m going to be shopping again soon for a replacement “SUV” though they are all still just station wagons to me. Even more so recently as off-road utility-like capabilities are lessrned it eliminated for old station wagon characteristics.

    Might look at used full size SUVs (Suburban, Sequoia, Expedition, etc.) any thoughts or experiences with them?



    Fun to watch:


    Before Crossovers & SUVs there were.... STATION WAGONS- 1966 Model Comparison

    Published on Jul 8, 2017 1966 Chevrolet promotional clip comparing their latest models to Plymouth & Ford
    Last edited by KC; 13-05-2018 at 02:38 PM.

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