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Thread: Iceland has heated sidewalks, why not Edmonton?

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    Default Iceland has heated sidewalks, why not Edmonton?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nton-1.2461361

    Should Edmonton be looking at heating downtown sidewalks and streets to clear them of ice and snow in the winter?

    The idea is officially part of the city's winter strategy calling for pilot projects of heating sidewalks in downtown business zones, but nothing concrete has been done so far.

    With major developments slated for Edmonton such as The Quarters, the Blatchford redevelopment, Boyle Renaissance area and the arena district, over the next few years, it's now an ideal time to seriously consider heating city sidewalks, said Coun. Ben Henderson.

    "The information we got from Scandinavia was that there were huge health benefits to this particularly seniors who are scared of going outside," he said.

    Henderson also suggested warming sidewalks around LRT stations "where there's a lot of pedestrian traffic, where the snow gets tramped down really quickly and its hard to deal with it in any other way."
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    More from above article:

    Holland, Mich., which gets up to 250 centimetres of snow each year, has been pumping waste heat from its power plant under streets and sidewalks since redeveloping its downtown in 1998.

    The volcanic island of Iceland uses geothermal heat to keep its streets, parking lots and sidewalks clear of snow.

    "In many places of the world, people are plugging into the earth's crust for different degrees of heat," Eirikur Hjalmarsson, head of communications at Reykjavik Energy, told CBC Edmonton AM. "Here in Iceland we drill one kilometre down and we reach temperatures of 70 to 300 C."

    That has reduced falling accidents, which are costly to the health system and reduced the need for snowplowing, he said.

    While Edmonton is a long way from a volcano, Henderson believes there are ways to heat city streets from such sources as waste heat from nearby buildings.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I was waiting for this to be posted...

    In front of the Coast Plaza downtown...you'll find no snow...heated sidewalk...

    It only makes sense to do this. The Jacobs building was recently renovated...yet no provisions for using waste heat to clear the walks....

    Same for all the work in front of TELUS...

    I just don't understand...we live in a winter city...snow is a reality November thru March...and often October through May....snow management should not be this hard!
    Onward and upward

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    Depending on the method used, I'm curious about the economic case of heated sidewalks/streets vs maintenance and repair, like plowing and re-paving due to ice damage.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    There is heated pavement at First Edmonton place going underground parking.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

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    who knew there was so much geothermal activity under our city...
    be offended! figure out why later...

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    Logistically impractical/impossible, but there is a lot of waste heat generated by all the plants/refineries in and around the city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    who knew there was so much geothermal activity under our city...
    I did a quick run through the forum and there's probably enough hot air on C2E alone to heat our city.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    who knew there was so much geothermal activity under our city...
    I did a quick run through the forum and there's probably enough hot air on C2E alone to heat our city.
    There isn't...the Coast uses waste heat from the boilers IIRC...

    ..and if there was hot air here...why is this darn place so freaking cold again!!!! Everyone...keep talking...for the love of all things you call Holy....KEEP TALKING!!!!! Let's melt this sucker....
    Onward and upward

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    District Heating! It would have been wonderful. And it's not like we haven't disrupted things for LRT and other downtown upgrades.

    I was actually going to post this very idea a few weeks back but apparently the City is way ahead of me and already has listed it for consideration. My view is that sidewalk cleaning in downtown Edmonton is horrible and inconsistent. A team of guys/girls with snowblowers and trucks and trailers could do a great job of snow removal off hours when no one is parked on the streets but otherwise they could only shovel the snow about. At least that would provide employment and potentially ensure easily walkable downtown streets. Heated downtown sidewalks however would raise standard of living (or walking ) significantly.

    To 'plug' an earlier posting of mine... (Every year a couple downtown roads back up as cars, busses etc. fail to make the grade.)

    Heated Strips on Hillside Roads - Connect2Edmonton
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...=Heated+strips

    My view is that the operating cost could be kept to a minimum on such ideas by stating that they will only be turned on under certain conditions. (Say once a week as needed and during heavy snow forecasts.) Otherwise existing clearing methods would need to be used. That way you don't hit everyone with tens of thousands in electric or hot 'water' bills.
    Last edited by KC; 13-12-2013 at 08:09 AM.

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    The Roger's Place district would make an excellent trial run for this, as we're building all the concrete sidewalks from scratch anyways. We can then integrate it with the rest of downtown over time. I'm afraid Jasper and 101street would have to be last, since we just finished replacing the sidewalk there

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    The idea of "waste heat" is dying anyways. As heat recovery technology and condensing boiler systems become the norm, there will be less heat to waste on heating sidewalks and such
    Parkdale

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    Heated sidewalks or a well designed/integrated +15 system? I choose the latter. Of course if you can have both then great, but when talking about downtown lets focus on a good PEDWAY system first. Yes we get a lot of snow but is that the reason people don't go outside? That's why we have boots, I think the bigger reason is the cold.

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    ^^ Electricity generation still produces a lot of waste heat. Maybe we should be looking at building a new powerplant downtown?

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    ^ If we had a NG powered power plant located in the vicinity that would change things somewhat.

    But I don't think it's practical to build a new one at this point
    Parkdale

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    The quarters and Blacnchford are ideal areas for this as is the arena. All are looking at some form of district heating.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    I like the idea, but the problem is most of the waste heat is sitting 5+ miles away at all the refineries so you'd need to build a hot liquid pipeline system to get it from there to where it can be used.

    BUT no reason why they couldn't use this for areas near the refineries now two good spots are Clover Bar and Beverly Bridges pains in the butt in the winter because of icing, the cost savings of clearing snow and less accidents and injuries should more than offset the price of construction and operation.

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    ^ District heating.... well the picture is cooling but same idea.

    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 13-12-2013 at 10:50 AM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    The idea of "waste heat" is dying anyways. As heat recovery technology and condensing boiler systems become the norm, there will be less heat to waste on heating sidewalks and such
    Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...

    ...I get the maintenance question others asked earlier...but vs the liability and the spread of salt/sand all year?

    I know I am a bit biased as it doesn't matter how well you sweep, winter is hell for me...
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    ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.

    We're running a large central plant so we have the capacity, and without our ramps heated, chaos would ensue.

    The maintenance costs are quite something else though. Sidewalks would likely be less of an issue.

    The main problem is that there's no good source of "waste heat" in the area. Save for one giant heat sink, but there's already plans for that.

    In a place like Blatchford, if they install a co-gen system as part of the development then it should be economically viable.. but I'd still be wary given the infrastructure costs. Plus, there's much better use for that heat I think... such as heating buildings. Another real advantage to co-gen and the installation of absorption cooling is that the heat can be re-purposed in the summertime to make chilled water, as electrical generation will take place year round. I know of several large scale glycol heating loops under roadways that have been abandonned over the years due to being too problematic and cost prohibitive to maintain
    Last edited by 240GLT; 13-12-2013 at 11:36 AM.
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    I am totally taking on board the descriptions of how expensive and complex this would be. But, darn, as a pedestrian it would be so very nice. It would mean that I wouldn't be at the mercy of which Whyte Ave merchants actually do their walks properly. To say nothing of those patches of sidewalk that seem to belong to no one in particular.

    Also the area around the UofA Hospital (and other hospitals for all I know) is often a disgrace and there you have lots of people attempting to get around with crutches.

    At least with heated sidewalks, I could be assured that the contact between the sidewalk and my boot sole would be water and not ice.

    Eve

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    @240...love to chat more on your experiences...

    coffee? PM me...
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ Electricity generation still produces a lot of waste heat. Maybe we should be looking at building a new powerplant downtown?
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ If we had a NG powered power plant located in the vicinity that would change things somewhat.

    But I don't think it's practical to build a new one at this point

    I'd agree...not practical nor is it plausible...

    Even an NG plant in an urban area takes space. One of my old clients has several in Ontario, and a couple in Ft McMoney. While they are very cool installations and not nearly the footprint of coal or nuke...they are still loud and industrial looking...

    So...they are in places like Suncor, YYZ lands, etc...industrial only. Not going to be DT. Considering no one seriously thought of upgrading/uprating Rossdale for this...probably not going to be anywhere close...

    ...and if my sources are correct, the geotherm and biomass planned for Blatchford are dead...
    Onward and upward

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    Elevators create a lot of heat

    Just saying...
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Logistically impractical/impossible, but there is a lot of waste heat generated by all the plants/refineries in and around the city.
    And logic dictates that if we were going to install the infrastructure to make use of that waste heat, it would be far better used to heat our buildings and reduce their natural gas consumption. We don't have an ample supply of easily accessed geothermal heat like Iceland does. If we are going to heat sidewalks, it's going to be natural gas doing it, one way or another. The amount of heat required is huge, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for snowmelt systems in parkade ramps.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    There isn't...the Coast uses waste heat from the boilers IIRC...
    It wouldn't be "waste" heat. It would simply be heat. Low temperature boiler systems don't really have waste heat, other than what's going out their chimney. It's all useful energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...
    Depends what you consider "much". Somewhere around $5 per square foot for the heating system itself (basically the pumps, pipe, control, sensors, and heat exchanger), not including ongoing utilities and maintenance. No idea how much the natural gas is for a snowmelt system, but it would vary wildly based upon how much snow fell in a season.

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT
    ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.
    Like I said, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for ramp snowmelt systems in our climate.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 13-12-2013 at 12:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Elevators create a lot of heat

    Just saying...
    They don't create 120-180F degree water, which is what you need to melt snow. Ramp snowmelt systems in fact aren't even really supposed to "melt" snow, they are actually designed to heat the falling snow so rapidly that it simply evaporates. Having a wet ramp or surface is just begging for it to turn to ice. And once a snowmelt system is iced over in cold weather, it has an extremely difficult time catching up again.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 13-12-2013 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    There isn't...the Coast uses waste heat from the boilers IIRC...
    It wouldn't be "waste" heat. It would simply be heat. Low temperature boiler systems don't really have waste heat, other than what's going out their chimney. It's all useful energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Fair enough...but the cost to actually heat most parking lot ramps is not that much...
    Depends what you consider "much". Somewhere around $5 per square foot for the heating system itself (basically the pumps, pipe, control, sensors, and heat exchanger), not including ongoing utilities and maintenance. No idea how much the natural gas is for a snowmelt system, but it would vary wildly based upon how much snow fell in a season.
    Thanks Marcel. you are right that snowfall would vary your operating costs, and I am a bit guilty here of taking a farming application and scaling it up...

    I was told the Coast used "waste heat", heat recovery, whichever, to power the sidewalk and parking ramp heat....didn't research fully so my bad...

    ...I also have an interest as I am researching runway heat systems and some of the claims that the storage of summer heat can do the trick in our climate...not buying that...but another topic...
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...I also have an interest as I am researching runway heat systems and some of the claims that the storage of summer heat can do the trick in our climate...not buying that...but another topic...
    I found this article on a Ground-coupled heat pump sidewalk clearing system installed in Japan. I just skimmed the article, so I don't know how feasible it is, but it might give the C2Er engineering/mechanical types something to chew on

    From the article conclusion:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ground Coupled Heat Pump article
    The seasonal snowfall (snowfall from December to March) in the first snow-melting season was 745cm and the second season 507cm. The largest daily snowfall experienced was 80cm/d. Through two winters of operation, it was demonstrated that both Gaia Snow-Melting Systems have sufficient snow-melting capacity for the city. The annual power consumption was 13.6% that of the electric heating cable systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT
    ^ my gas bills beg to differ I'd have to actually go see how many BTU's it's taking to heat my ramps, but it's not cheap, I can tell you that.
    Like I said, 200 btu's per square foot is the rule of thumb for ramp snowmelt systems in our climate.
    So based on that a quick calculation tells me that it takes roughly 300,000 BTU's to heat my ramps.
    Parkdale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Elevators create a lot of heat

    Just saying...
    They don't create 120-180F degree water, which is what you need to melt snow. Ramp snowmelt systems in fact aren't even really supposed to "melt" snow, they are actually designed to heat the falling snow so rapidly that it simply evaporates. Having a wet ramp or surface is just begging for it to turn to ice. And once a snowmelt system is iced over in cold weather, it has an extremely difficult time catching up again.
    you got that right
    Parkdale

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    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    I think all the nay Sayers need to step back and realize this is done elsewhere in the world and it works.

    We spend STUPID amounts of money on crap snow removal. lets take some of the stupid amounts of money and do it differently.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 13-12-2013 at 12:34 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^^ Electricity generation still produces a lot of waste heat. Maybe we should be looking at building a new powerplant downtown?
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ If we had a NG powered power plant located in the vicinity that would change things somewhat.

    But I don't think it's practical to build a new one at this point

    I'd agree...not practical nor is it plausible...

    Even an NG plant in an urban area takes space. One of my old clients has several in Ontario, and a couple in Ft McMoney. While they are very cool installations and not nearly the footprint of coal or nuke...they are still loud and industrial looking...

    So...they are in places like Suncor, YYZ lands, etc...industrial only. Not going to be DT. Considering no one seriously thought of upgrading/uprating Rossdale for this...probably not going to be anywhere close...

    ...and if my sources are correct, the geotherm and biomass planned for Blatchford are dead...
    There is a substation on 105 Ave just NW of the new arena site. Not sure how much heat waste they produce.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    University has it's own power plants

    Hospitals

    Airports

    Facilities with need for mass refrigeration

    we shouldn't rule out creating heat for the sole purpose of heating the walks.

    What about the river?

    The Lake at ambleside?

    Creating deep massive storm water pits

    and of course geothermal if we know how to do anything in AB it's drill.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 13-12-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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    District heating has been implemented on a large scale in Russia since shortly after WW2 (if not earlier) -- not for sidewalks but for the buildings themselves.

    One thing they found was that constructing the systems in the large cities was a much smaller battle than keeping it going as it wore out in the ensuing decades and began to fail quite regularly.

    Of course we're not talking about heating everything centrally, just the sidewalks.

    And yet, it's a fact Edmonton's infrastructure problem is almost entirely one of maintenance.

    For that reason alone, I am squarely against all central-heating tomfoolery, even if it's just for sidewalks.

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    ...the more I dig into the larger scale versions...the more I am inclined to agree AShetsen...
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I think all the nay Sayers need to step back and realize this is done elsewhere in the world and it works.

    We spend STUPID amounts of money on crap snow removal. lets take some of the stupid amounts of money and do it differently.
    I'd be curious to see a cost benefit analysis of it, for sure. I think it would likely show that it would be extremely cost prohibitive both from an initial installation standpoint and an ongoing utility/maintenance issue. Again, we're not going to be able to magically melt snow with hot geothermal heat like they can in Iceland, Japan and other countries. It'll either be done with natural gas, or ground-source geothermal, which is basically coal since ground-source geothermal has a lot of power consumption to run circulators and heat pumps.

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    I would love to see at least the sidewalks around the arena plaza heated. Not the entire plaza, but where people walk. How it's done in other cities.
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    Yeah, in high traffic areas I can see it making a lot of sense, don't get me wrong.

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    The recent streetscaping on Jasper Ave between 100 - 102 St would been opportune. I'm not sure if LRT stations produce any heat or heat waste though.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Yeah, in high traffic areas I can see it making a lot of sense, don't get me wrong.
    No one has said the entire city should have heated sidewalks btw.

    not that I am aware of.
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    Of course there's the glass roofed sidewalk idea. Much simpler in many ways and useful year round. Just do one side of any street.


    Or PLUS 15s down the back lanes... My posting from another era...

    Rossdale District Heating/Cooling via Elevated Walkways - Connect2Edmonton
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...read.php?t=186


    Geothermal should work here but could we scale it up for sidewalks and how much extra boost would be needed for this task?
    Last edited by KC; 13-12-2013 at 06:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I think all the nay Sayers need to step back and realize this is done elsewhere in the world and it works.

    We spend STUPID amounts of money on crap snow removal. lets take some of the stupid amounts of money and do it differently.
    +1

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    To heat any block of matter whatever two degrees takes twice as much energy as to heat it one degree. To heat it ten degrees takes five times as much energy as to heat it two degrees.

    The cute picture posted earlier is Oslo. Going by data from here, the average temperature from November to March (the months with freezing temperatures) is 4 + -1 + -1 + -5 + 1 + -7 + 2 + -7 + 6 + -3 = -11/10 = -1.1 degree Celsius over 150 days (30 a month, more or less) = 165 degree days below zero.

    Edmonton's figures from the same place from October to April are 12 + -2 + -1 + -11 + -6 + -16 + -7 + -16 + -5 + -16 + 1 + -9 + 10 + -2 = -68/14 = -4.85 or over 210 days = 1020 degree-days.

    So to heat to zero and allow the snow to melt would require 1020/165 = 6.2 times the energy in Edmonton, by this very rough estimate (ideally one wants the total time spent below zero, with running temperature, but that's hard to find.)

    So putting aside engineering and construction and maintenance costs associated with a much colder climate than the one in the cute ad, the purest of the operating costs would be six times higher here per metre of sidewalk.

    Suddenly the "stupid" amounts of money we spend on snow removal don't seem so stupid anymore.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 13-12-2013 at 07:44 PM.

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    You wouldn't heat to zero all the time. That's only done for the most critical applications. Sidewalks could be heated only when it's snowing, you would reduce energy use ( and cost) by over 90% vs idling at zero. I have some numbers at work, I'll post them Monday if I can't find something on the web.

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    Ok, so just ballpark estimate based on 150kg of snow per m2, per year, it would take about 0.5GJ. Per m2 per year, to melt and evaporate snow.

    So at current gas prices, $85 for a 10' wide sidewalk 50' long. About $3000/year for a whole block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    We spend STUPID amounts of money on crap snow removal. lets take some of the stupid amounts of money and do it differently.
    Since we're talking about heated sidewalks in front of businesses downtown, how much money does it cost the city to remove that snow? Aren't the businesses themselves responsible for clearing the snow from in front of their storefronts? If so, then the amount of money the city spends to remove this snow isn't much at all.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  49. #49
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    There's some useful info from holland, Michigan here.

    They use 90F (35c) water, which is about what waste heat from a chiller will be. So any downtown mall or large tower with a constant cooling load will have waste that could be used for sidewalk heat, unless they are already recovering the heat for other purposes, or if they use outdoor air economists for cooling in cold weather.

  50. #50

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    Crank up the heat, add radiant heaters and you've got on street dining 365 days a year!

    Roof over the sidewalks and add overhead gas or electric radiant heaters.

  51. #51

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    Snow on sidewalks is annoying but the much bigger issue we have is snow on roads.

    What is the cost of snow plowing, hauling, sanding, salting, crack fixing, pothole fixing, repaving, lawsuit settling, etc. as a direct result of snow on the roads? There's got to be a way to melt the snow for less money than what we're spending now. If only we knew what it was. sigh.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Snow on sidewalks is annoying but the much bigger issue we have is snow on roads.

    What is the cost of snow plowing, hauling, sanding, salting, crack fixing, pothole fixing, repaving, lawsuit settling, etc. as a direct result of snow on the roads? There's got to be a way to melt the snow for less money than what we're spending now. If only we knew what it was. sigh.
    If we are gonna do that. building hot water pipelines from Genessee/Sundance/Keephills may not be a bad idea. (they built lakes the size of a neighborhood to cool off their plants)

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    Refineries are actually very good at recovering their waste energy. Wherever an economical amount of heat is generated, it will be recovered and used. There are also process limitations, for example, the temperature at the top of a refinery smokestack will be in excess of 1000F. There are regulations regarding stack top temperature in Alberta and the plants are not allowed to go below them. This is because the stack operates as the final point of the pollution control systems and material is burned as it goes up the stack. What may seem simple has lots of variables and things aren't as easy as they appear.

  54. #54

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    "Under-road radiators may beat the ice"
    · Water pipes to store heat from summer sun
    · Green system could warm schools, pools and offices

    "
    The scheme, known as interseasonal heat transfer, or IHT, will lay a network of plastic pipes filled with water just below the road surface.

    In summer, when road temperatures can reach 40C, the water is warmed and pumped to pipes insulated with polystyrene. In winter, when sensors detect the temperature at 2C, warm water is pumped back under the road to heat the ground and prevent ice forming."
    "Scientists found enough heat was captured in the summer of 2006 to keep the road above freezing for almost all of the following winter. On average, the heated surface was 3C warmer than the surrounding ground."
    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arpower.energy


    http://www.icax.co.uk/pdf/ICAX_UTES_REHAU_31May2012.pdf

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Crank up the heat, add radiant heaters and you've got on street dining 365 days a year!

    Roof over the sidewalks and add overhead gas or electric radiant heaters.
    We already have that. It is called indoor restaurants.
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  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Ok, so just ballpark estimate based on 150kg of snow per m2, per year, it would take about 0.5GJ. Per m2 per year, to melt and evaporate snow.

    So at current gas prices, $85 for a 10' wide sidewalk 50' long. About $3000/year for a whole block.
    That is an estimate for a closed system, not an open conditions of an outdoor sidewalk.
    You forgot all the thermal mass of heating up the many tons of sidewalk concrete and how much heat will transfer into the ambient air, and concrete base. Maybe add another zero behind your cost calculations.
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  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    "Under-road radiators may beat the ice"
    · Water pipes to store heat from summer sun
    · Green system could warm schools, pools and offices

    "
    The scheme, known as interseasonal heat transfer, or IHT, will lay a network of plastic pipes filled with water just below the road surface.

    In summer, when road temperatures can reach 40C, the water is warmed and pumped to pipes insulated with polystyrene. In winter, when sensors detect the temperature at 2C, warm water is pumped back under the road to heat the ground and prevent ice forming."
    "Scientists found enough heat was captured in the summer of 2006 to keep the road above freezing for almost all of the following winter. On average, the heated surface was 3C warmer than the surrounding ground."
    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arpower.energy


    http://www.icax.co.uk/pdf/ICAX_UTES_REHAU_31May2012.pdf
    What relevance does this test have anything to do with Edmonton? Berkshire has an average December temperature low of only +4C with a record low of -8C, hardly Edmonton temperatures. One or two snow days with temperatures hovering just below freezing are easier to use thermal heating than the much colder and lengthy conditions that are experienced here. You are basically comparing weather closer to Victoria BC to Edmonton.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    There's some useful info from holland, Michigan here.

    They use 90F (35c) water, which is about what waste heat from a chiller will be. So any downtown mall or large tower with a constant cooling load will have waste that could be used for sidewalk heat, unless they are already recovering the heat for other purposes, or if they use outdoor air economists for cooling in cold weather.
    Very, very few buildings will run chillers below 5 degrees ambient. Most free cool when the outside air temperature is low enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    To heat any block of matter whatever two degrees takes twice as much energy as to heat it one degree. To heat it ten degrees takes five times as much energy as to heat it two degrees.

    The cute picture posted earlier is Oslo. Going by data from here, the average temperature from November to March (the months with freezing temperatures) is 4 + -1 + -1 + -5 + 1 + -7 + 2 + -7 + 6 + -3 = -11/10 = -1.1 degree Celsius over 150 days (30 a month, more or less) = 165 degree days below zero.

    Edmonton's figures from the same place from October to April are 12 + -2 + -1 + -11 + -6 + -16 + -7 + -16 + -5 + -16 + 1 + -9 + 10 + -2 = -68/14 = -4.85 or over 210 days = 1020 degree-days.

    So to heat to zero and allow the snow to melt would require 1020/165 = 6.2 times the energy in Edmonton, by this very rough estimate (ideally one wants the total time spent below zero, with running temperature, but that's hard to find.)

    So putting aside engineering and construction and maintenance costs associated with a much colder climate than the one in the cute ad, the purest of the operating costs would be six times higher here per metre of sidewalk.

    Suddenly the "stupid" amounts of money we spend on snow removal don't seem so stupid anymore.
    The part you didn't really factor for is that the energy to melt and/or evaporate snow is actually an order of magnitude higher than it is to warm it up in the first place. Heat of fusion and heat of vaporization are huge. So while we might have a lot more heating degree days than say Oslo, you have to take in to account how much snow/water needs to be melted/evaporated, as that's the far bigger number in the equation, and given our (normally) low snowfall as compared to more coastal cities like Oslo, things might not actually look so bad by comparison.

  60. #60

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    Walking through all the mess of slush, salt sand and dirt.... I couldn't help but think hoe much cleaner this all would be if the sidewalks were heated!!
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    So any geologists out there know how deep one has to dig for geothermal heat from the earth?
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    Of could you bore horizontal into the side of the river valley?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So any geologists out there know how deep one has to dig for geothermal heat from the earth?
    In Edmonton it's at least a few thousand feet for hot geothermal, I would think. You can do groundsource geothermal with heat pumps, but that means 20-30% or so of your heat requirement will be in the form of electricity to run pumps, compressors, and the like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Of could you bore horizontal into the side of the river valley?!
    Again, thousands of feet. The River Valley is a couple hundred feet, and isn't going to make a lick of a difference. We're in the middle of the continent, on top of thousands of feet of sediment, rock, and so on in a location where the Earth's crust is kilometers thick. Hot geothermal is going to be way, way down there. Shallower heat exchange geothermal systems aren't practical for high output heating applications for a variety of reasons, especially when natural gas is so cheap.

    http://www.cspg.org/documents/Conven...in_Alberta.pdf

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Of could you bore horizontal into the side of the river valley?!
    Again, thousands of feet. The River Valley is a couple hundred feet, and isn't going to make a lick of a difference. We're in the middle of the continent, on top of thousands of feet of sediment, rock, and so on in a location where the Earth's crust is kilometers thick. Hot geothermal is going to be way, way down there. Shallower heat exchange geothermal systems aren't practical for high output heating applications for a variety of reasons, especially when natural gas is so cheap.

    http://www.cspg.org/documents/Conven...in_Alberta.pdf

    To go off topic for a post, I'd say it be worth it to drill deep in Fort McMurray to power oil sands extraction. Not so much in economic terms, but in public relations terms to deal with some of the environmentalist's complains. It may be expensive to drill that deep, but we have a great deal of experience drilling, and the price and optics of geothermal would both be better then the only other viable CO2 less power source build-able in Alberta, nuclear.

    If they perfect the process of a deep geothermal energy tap in Fort Mac, the might be able to scale the cost to power heated sidewalks here

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So any geologists out there know how deep one has to dig for geothermal heat from the earth?
    In Edmonton it's at least a few thousand feet for hot geothermal, I would think. You can do groundsource geothermal with heat pumps, but that means 20-30% or so of your heat requirement will be in the form of electricity to run pumps, compressors, and the like.
    I believe, however, that you don't need a geothermal hot zone... what you need is a heat sink. Store heat during the summer, remove it during the winter.

    Dig down 20 feet and you will find the ground to be a uniform 10-16 Degrees Celsius.

    We do not have to go down thousands of feet.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 16-12-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I believe, however, that you don't need a geothermal hot zone... what you need is a heat sink. Store heat during the summer, remove it during the winter.

    Dig down 20 feet and you will find the ground to be a uniform 10-16 Degrees Celsius.

    We do not have to go down thousands of feet.
    Again, then you start burning a significant amount of electricity to power pumps, compressors, and so on. Most groundsource geothermal heat pumps have a COP of 4-5, meaning that for every unit of electricity it can extract 4-5 units of heat. But that means if you need X amount of heat, ~20% of that going to be electricity from coal or natural gas in Alberta.

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    I'm also not so sure thermal storage is a viable option... I've automated a few thermal storage systems, and for the most part they are only storing thermal mass for a half a day to a few days max.. generally cooling water when it is inexpensive to do so and storing it until it can be used to cool buildings when you'd usually do so mechanically.

    I'm not quite sure what kind of a heat sink you'd need to store heat for such a length of time that you could generate it inexpensively in the summer and then release it in the winter. It would be insanely expensive, if it could even be done, I am sure.
    Last edited by 240GLT; 16-12-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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  69. #69

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    ^ this is how geothermal systems work currently... to my understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ this is how geothermal systems work currently... to my understanding.
    Ground-source geothermal and hot geothermal are not the same thing. When you hear "Iceland uses geothermal heat/power to heat it's sidewalks", they aren't talking about ground-source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I believe, however, that you don't need a geothermal hot zone... what you need is a heat sink. Store heat during the summer, remove it during the winter.

    Dig down 20 feet and you will find the ground to be a uniform 10-16 Degrees Celsius.

    We do not have to go down thousands of feet.
    Not in Edmonton. The temperature does become constant once you go 6-10 m below ground, but that constant temperature is close to the annual average air temperature. That is only a few degrees above freezing here, not 10 - 16 C and not warm enough to operate a snowmelt system.

    Once you go to an electric heat pump, you are better off just burning natural gas - Most of our electricity is generated from coal with an efficiency near 40% and it costs almost 10 times as much as natural gas. Using a natural gas engine to drive the compressor directly would help, but this huge increase in cost and complexity compared to a gas fired boiler will at best only double the heat you get.

    Actively heating a large volume of earth with solar heat in the summer might work, but such a setup would still to be very expensive to build and maintain.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ this is how geothermal systems work currently... to my understanding.
    Ground-source geothermal and hot geothermal are not the same thing. When you hear "Iceland uses geothermal heat/power to heat it's sidewalks", they aren't talking about ground-source.
    Right I understand that.... what does Scandinavia use?
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  73. #73

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    I don't understand why people feel its so hard to do... yes I understand thatpump would be required but thats not horrid and the heat from them is likely added into the equation.

    http://www.kensingtonmasterbuilders....ermal-heating/
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  74. #74

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    Geothermal energy
    Geothermal energy is heat that is obtained from the Earth’s interior, deriving from the radioactive decay of certain heavier elements.

    In the bedrock beneath Sweden, the temperature rises by 10–30°C for every 1 km increase in depth (the ‘geothermal gradient’). In volcanically active regions, the temperature increase can be much greater than that. In Sweden, the best potential for geothermal energy is considered to exist in areas where there are large bodies of groundwater at considerable depths (2–3 km), i.e. areas with thick layers of sedimentary bedrock or fault zones such as the Lake Vättern graben. Areas where meteorites have given rise to fractured bedrock at great depths are also judged to be of interest, including the Siljan Ring, the Dellen lakes and Björkö on Lake Mälaren.

    Sweden’s largest commercial geothermal plant at present is in Lund. Drawing water at 20°C from sedimentary strata at a depth of some 700 m, the plant meets 30 per cent of the city’s district heating needs (i.e. 250 GWh). The heat contained in the water is heat-exchanged to achieve the required temperature.

    Geophysical information, in this case gravity and magnetic maps, can be used to identify areas with potential for geothermal energy.

    Ground source heating
    Another way of obtaining heat from the Earth’s crust is to use the energy in the portions of it closer to the surface. While it is not as warm here as at greater depths, it is perfectly possible to extract the heat that is present, for example using heat pumps. The temperature in the layers of soil and rock from which the heat is taken is usually roughly the same as the annual mean air temperature.

    There are now over 300 000 ground source heat pumps in Sweden, mainly serving individual houses. They have the advantage of enabling a house to be heated using less electricity than if the electricity were to be used directly. The rock or soil normally delivers twice as much energy as needs to be supplied in the form of electricity. Gradually, the coefficient of performance (heat output per unit of electricity) tends to decline, partly because insufficient energy is being transferred through the rock to the borehole, resulting in a fall in temperature in the hole and its immediate vicinity. In Sweden, a total of around 5 TWh of energy is extracted from rock and soil using this technology every year.

    Most local authorities require a minimum distance of 20 m between heat pump boreholes. Other factors also have to be taken into account when constructing such systems, and installations have to be notified to the local authority.

    SGU provides training for well drillers, leading to certification. It has also drawn up standards for the construction of wells and boreholes for heat pump and water supply purposes. Information on well/borehole depths etc. can be found in SGU’s Wells Archive.
    http://www.sgu.se/sgu/eng/samhalle/e...gi_info_e.html

  75. #75

  76. #76

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    ^ I see the hot springs!!
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  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    "Under-road radiators may beat the ice"
    · Water pipes to store heat from summer sun
    · Green system could warm schools, pools and offices

    "
    The scheme, known as interseasonal heat transfer, or IHT, will lay a network of plastic pipes filled with water just below the road surface.

    In summer, when road temperatures can reach 40C, the water is warmed and pumped to pipes insulated with polystyrene. In winter, when sensors detect the temperature at 2C, warm water is pumped back under the road to heat the ground and prevent ice forming."
    "Scientists found enough heat was captured in the summer of 2006 to keep the road above freezing for almost all of the following winter. On average, the heated surface was 3C warmer than the surrounding ground."
    http://www.theguardian.com/environme...arpower.energy


    http://www.icax.co.uk/pdf/ICAX_UTES_REHAU_31May2012.pdf
    What relevance does this test have anything to do with Edmonton? Berkshire has an average December temperature low of only +4C with a record low of -8C, hardly Edmonton temperatures. One or two snow days with temperatures hovering just below freezing are easier to use thermal heating than the much colder and lengthy conditions that are experienced here. You are basically comparing weather closer to Victoria BC to Edmonton.
    Maybe read it again to see the relevance.
    Last edited by KC; 16-12-2013 at 06:50 PM.

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    Big image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Right I understand that.... what does Scandinavia use?
    I would imagine either fossil fuels or electricity (perhaps from renewable sources, more likely nuclear or fossil fuels) to operate a boiler system. They may also have "hot" geothermal. I sincerely doubt that much of their heating is done using groundsource geothermal, which is a very small (but growing) niche pretty much everywhere, because while it can cut fossil fuel costs, it tends to have very high electricity costs that more than offset the fossil fuel savings. But in places with fairly low heating loads that were doing it only with electric resistance heating, geothermal can make very good sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    I don't understand why people feel its so hard to do... yes I understand thatpump would be required but thats not horrid and the heat from them is likely added into the equation.

    http://www.kensingtonmasterbuilders....ermal-heating/
    No one is saying that it's "so hard" to do. Every office tower and residential condo building with a parkade in Edmonton has a snowmelt system to keep the ramp clear of snow. The systems are simple.

    What people are saying is that from a cost and environmental perspective, it makes little to no sense. They are expensive to install, expensive to operate, and in Alberta the heat for them will come from burning gas or coal. It's that simple. Electricity is too expensive, and gas and coal are too cheap.

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    Thanks for the map, Medwards. Looks like its impractical around Edmonton and especially up towards Fort Mac. The best spot looks almost due west of Grand Prairie, on the BC border, with Grand Prarie itself sitting on a spot almost as warm. I wonder how viable it'd be to set up a geothermal power plant near Grand Prairie, since it already has a power connection to the main grid. Would it be competitive with natural gas? Or could it be subsidized like a wind farm?

  81. #81

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    Looks like Jasper is sitting on a hot pocket as well.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Looks like Jasper is sitting on a hot pocket as well.
    As someone noted earlier, that's why the hot springs are there. The chance of the geothermal energy being tapped power generation in a national park is next to zero; at best maybe a small scale plant would be allowed to generate power for the town site, but I double even that would be done.

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    Keep in mind that the map above is not a constant-depth map, but a map of the temperature at the top of the precambrian shield. The shield is exposed in the NE corner of the province, but buried up to 6 km deep under the mountains.

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Keep in mind that the map above is not a constant-depth map, but a map of the temperature at the top of the precambrian shield. The shield is exposed in the NE corner of the province, but buried up to 6 km deep under the mountains.
    Any idea how buried it would be at Grand Prairie, or the hotter spot to the east of it? They're not in the mountains, but they are a lot closer to them then Fort McMurray.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    So any geologists out there know how deep one has to dig for geothermal heat from the earth?
    In Edmonton it's at least a few thousand feet for hot geothermal, I would think. You can do groundsource geothermal with heat pumps, but that means 20-30% or so of your heat requirement will be in the form of electricity to run pumps, compressors, and the like.
    I believe, however, that you don't need a geothermal hot zone... what you need is a heat sink. Store heat during the summer, remove it during the winter.

    Dig down 20 feet and you will find the ground to be a uniform 10-16 Degrees Celsius.

    We do not have to go down thousands of feet.
    Yes EDP, you are correct.

    You only have to go as little as 8 to 10 feet deep in most places in Alberta to take advantage of geothermal heating.

    There are many opinions and misonceptions being posted here about geothermal heating.

    There are many houses and buildings in the Edmonton area that have been built or renovated over the last decade or so that use geothermal heating daily.

    There are about 10 companies in the Edmonton area that provide geothermal systems and installations. I was going to post some links, decided that people can google it to educate themselves.

    I am not an expert on the topic, although I did look into geothermal heating for a house I was renovating a few years ago. It is really quite amazing. All you need is to be able to run a liquid through a few degree celcius heat change, and through what is called a ground source heat pump, and somehow, magic occurs and you are able to heat your space. Granted, due to my limited available surface area, I was going to have to dig 200 feet deep vertical wells tie them together, and make a mess of my yard. The pump requires electricity to run. Solar and Geothermal, all upfront cost, free energy?

    There is even one subdivision in the region that you are required to install a geotherm system.

    http://www.crimsonleaf.ca/homesites.htm

    Not sure if this would work for uninsulated slabs of outdoor pavement or concrete, and any design would have to deal with the melt water this would create.

    As for central energy systems, many places, like the U of A, use central systems, and I can already hear the collective groan -> http://www.strathcona.ca/departments...munity-energy/

    And for other interesting area projects:

    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/renovated...icity-1.832135

    And as if we don't already think this region is already great, here is a link to a federal site.

    http://www.greenenergyfutures.ca/vid...-three-degrees

    There are many resources on line regarding geothermal in our part of the world.

    Google.
    Last edited by Fleogan; 17-12-2013 at 05:23 PM.

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    Forget about heated sidewalks. All that's required to make Downtown walkable year round is proper snow and ice removal from all sidewalks. A good old snow shovel and some ice melter do the trick very nicely.

    Having walked home from my office the last couple of days, it's apparent there are responsible property owners Downtown who manage to keep their sidewalks clear of snow and ice. The provincial government, City Centre Mall, most businesses along Jasper Avenue, and the City itself in the vicinity of City Hall and Winston Churchill Square do a great job.

    But there seem to be as many or more property owners who put little or no effort into snow and ice removal from Downtown sidewalks thereby leaving them the most treacherous in the entire city. The Arlington site, Impark surface lots (take your pick), the two buildings directly north of our office, even the owner of the office building where I work (until he got tired of listening to our phoned complaints). Shockingly, walked by today and Edmonton Public Schools has not removed the snow pack from the sidewalk in front of McKay Avenue School. These are only a few examples. There are many more.

    The reason that Downtown sidewalks don't get cleared is lack of enforcement pure and simple. For the life of me I fail to understand why the rules enforced everywhere else in the City are not enforced in our Downtown.

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    I agree with East McCauley

    Courtesy IanO



    We cannot even plow a street properly. Note the pedestrian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleogan View Post

    You only have to go as little as 8 to 10 feet deep in most places in Alberta to take advantage of geothermal heating.

    There are many opinions and misonceptions being posted here about geothermal heating.

    There are many houses and buildings in the Edmonton area that have been built or renovated over the last decade or so that use geothermal heating daily.

    There are about 10 companies in the Edmonton area that provide geothermal systems and installations. I was going to post some links, decided that people can google it to educate themselves.

    I am not an expert on the topic, although I did look into geothermal heating for a house I was renovating a few years ago. It is really quite amazing. All you need is to be able to run a liquid through a few degree celcius heat change, and through what is called a ground source heat pump, and somehow, magic occurs and you are able to heat your space. Granted, due to my limited available surface area, I was going to have to dig 200 feet deep vertical wells tie them together, and make a mess of my yard. The pump requires electricity to run. Solar and Geothermal, all upfront cost, free energy?
    It's not magic, it's thermodynamics, specifically a reverse Rankine cycle. Thermodynamics and engineering practicalities also place limits on how efficiently that heat can be extracted. The efficiency is usually expressed as the "coefficient of performance" or COP, which is the ratio of heat out to energy in. A low temperature geothermal system will have a COP in the 3 to 4 range, so you get 3 to 4 watts of heat out for every watt of electricity in. This is great if you are comparing to electric resistance heating, but when you compare to burning natural gas that is nearly 10 times cheaper than electricity for the same amount of energy the savings disappear. On the environmental side, the coal fired powerplant that produces the electricity is only about 40 -45% efficient and burning coal produces significantly more CO2 and toxic pollutants than burning natural gas so there is no environmental benefit either.

  89. #89
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
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    ^Update on above post.

    The two office buildings north of us did remove the snow and ice from their sidewalks late yesterday just before the big freeze. Maybe the property owners read C2E.

    Regardless, there are still too many Downtown sidewalks that remain uncleared. With the return of colder weather these sidewalks will be covered by solid blocks of ice.

  90. #90

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Forget about heated sidewalks. All that's required to make Downtown walkable year round is proper snow and ice removal from all sidewalks. A good old snow shovel and some ice melter do the trick very nicely.

    Having walked home from my office the last couple of days, it's apparent there are responsible property owners Downtown who manage to keep their sidewalks clear of snow and ice. The provincial government, City Centre Mall, most businesses along Jasper Avenue, and the City itself in the vicinity of City Hall and Winston Churchill Square do a great job.

    But there seem to be as many or more property owners who put little or no effort into snow and ice removal from Downtown sidewalks thereby leaving them the most treacherous in the entire city. The Arlington site, Impark surface lots (take your pick), the two buildings directly north of our office, even the owner of the office building where I work (until he got tired of listening to our phoned complaints). Shockingly, walked by today and Edmonton Public Schools has not removed the snow pack from the sidewalk in front of McKay Avenue School. These are only a few examples. There are many more.

    The reason that Downtown sidewalks don't get cleared is lack of enforcement pure and simple. For the life of me I fail to understand why the rules enforced everywhere else in the City are not enforced in our Downtown.
    Did you call 311?!
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  91. #91

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    311 will only take complaints about residents not clearing their sidewalks. They don't listen to complains about commercial properties, at least so much as the last time I tried to complain about the Arlington sidewalks

  92. #92

    Default

    ^ that's absurd.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  93. #93

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    Maybe I just got a bad 311 agent the two times I called (This winter and last)

  94. #94

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    ^ I also don't put absurd past the 311 call center.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  95. #95

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    Policy change or bad 311 agent because I just put in a complaint to bylaw re the Arlington.

    I suggest others call
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  96. #96
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
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    ^Yes I have called the City on several occasions though I prefer to use the online complaints form here: http://permits.edmonton.ca/Default.a...rea=Complaints

    The sheer number of Downtown property owners who ignore the bylaw to remove snow and ice from adjoining sidewalks makes this impractical. Better solutions are needed for Downtown that don't place the onus on citizens to continuously lodge complaints.

    There should be more pro-active enforcement. Downtown is geographically small. The sidewalks couldn't visually inspect 48 hours after a snowfall or freezing rain event to make sure all Downtown sidewalks are clear, and if not, enforcement action commenced. Perhaps the omnipresent parking bylaw officers could have sidewalk inspection added to their parking enforcement duties.

  97. #97
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    Can we please not turn this thread into another rant thread about snow removal? We got like 1/2 dozen threads on that already.

    Admin...help please?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  98. #98

    Default

    ^ Instead of complaining fold it back into the subject...

    Look at the 311 bitching, bylaw we pay to view it, write a ticket, cost of following up in court....If, in highly dense areas where the cost is manageable, we had heated sidewalks all these costs stop or are transferred elsewhere.

    We don't need admin to fix everything or to get us back on track we are big boys...and maybe a girl or two.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 18-12-2013 at 05:16 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  99. #99

    Default

    Yes, the cost of removing snow off the sidewalk is removed if we have heated sidewalks, and instead of that, have new maintenance costs. Take a look around, and see how well the city of Edmonton keeps its infrastructure maintained. Now take that look, and apply to heating sidewalks.
    Nope. Just clear the sidewalks please

  100. #100
    highlander
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    For a business owner, though, who is already maintaining a boiler right next to the sidewalk in question it might be very reasonable. They're already responsible for clearing the sidewalks adjacent to their properties, so they could potentially save money if, in addition to eliminating contractor snow removal they could significantly reduce the amount of snow (and evil brown slush) tracked into their buildings, and at the same time add the curb appeal of a clean, dry sidewalk...
    If I were developing a major new tower or venue downtown I would take a very close look at doing snow-melt sidewalks.

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