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Thread: Iceland has heated sidewalks, why not Edmonton?

  1. #101
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    ^In limited applications such as the above where sidewalks are being reconstructed as part of the development, heated sidewalks could be looked at as an option.

    Applied generally throughout the Downtown, no. Focus City efforts on more effective snow/ice clearing and removal.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    For a business owner, though, who is already maintaining a boiler right next to the sidewalk in question it might be very reasonable. They're already responsible for clearing the sidewalks adjacent to their properties, so they could potentially save money if, in addition to eliminating contractor snow removal they could significantly reduce the amount of snow (and evil brown slush) tracked into their buildings, and at the same time add the curb appeal of a clean, dry sidewalk...
    If I were developing a major new tower or venue downtown I would take a very close look at doing snow-melt sidewalks.
    Snow removal for out condo of seven units as costed a huge amount making it the single largest ongoing expense each year. The next question becomes does it elongate the life of the infrastructure?
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Snow removal for out condo of seven units as costed a huge amount making it the single largest ongoing expense each year. The next question becomes does it elongate the life of the infrastructure?
    Your snow removal budget is higher than your gas and electricity costs? You might want to get some competitive quotes, then, because you're getting hosed.

  4. #104

    Default Heated sidewalks heading to Saskatoon


  5. #105

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    ^
    The article above mentions a Michigan city uses heated water from a coal fire power plant to heat its sidewalk.

    How about we reactivate the Rossdale Plant site as what it was intended as, a power plant, installing a natural gas boiler, and pipe the hot water up the hill to the arena district for the sidewalks? We could save the historic building, and get us some sweet heated sidewalks

  6. #106
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    I do remember the library having heated steps before they built the butt ugly addition to the north. As an aside I didn't consider the original look of the library wonderful, it was brutalist but addition made it worse.

    The ramps on Southgate Mall's parkades are nicely heated, if they weren't a few accidents would have happened by now.

  7. #107
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    ^ I concur, merge the threads.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Snow removal for out condo of seven units as costed a huge amount making it the single largest ongoing expense each year. The next question becomes does it elongate the life of the infrastructure?
    Your snow removal budget is higher than your gas and electricity costs? You might want to get some competitive quotes, then, because you're getting hosed.
    Unit owners pay their own heating and electricity... we are townhouses.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  9. #109

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    This is another ridiculously stupid, inane & wasteful idea that runs perfectly counter to the CoE's Energy Transition Strategy (along with the fundamentals of thermodynamics & common sense).

    Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas in areas that lack the fundamental geological & meteorological conditions that allow cheap & prolific geothermal heat to be leveraged to provide great utility is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E.

    (Please note I'm responding directly to the violent & noisy simian who started the thread.)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  10. #110

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    ^is it wasteful? How much energy / calories / food (and all the CO2/methane to produce that food) does a person and their machinery (typically gasoline) consume clearing snow? It could be more than having some electrification. I know in Japan in cities like Sapporo they use electrification on their bridges, as an example, and I wouldn't call the Japanese wasteful people.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-10-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^is it wasteful? How much energy / calories / food (and all the CO2/methane to produce that food) does a person and their machinery (typically gasoline) consume clearing snow? It could be more than having some electrification. I know in Japan in cities like Sapporo they use electrification on their bridges, as an example, and I wouldn't call the Japanese wasteful people.
    Don't forget the labour, financial and environmental costs of chemicals and sand we put on sidewalks, often after light snow falls. Those activities are done to avoid personal injury and the costs associated with them. All of which is rather haphazard (no pun intended) in its application.

  12. #112

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    Most of our snowfall happens in the -1 to -15 range where many large office buildings and malls are still in cooling, a snow-melted sidewalk could be considered waste heat rejection ("free cooling"), not an energy cost, Provided they don't already have a place to dump their waste heat, like a heated parkade or a pool.
    There can only be one.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    This is another ridiculously stupid, inane & wasteful idea that runs perfectly counter to the CoE's Energy Transition Strategy (along with the fundamentals of thermodynamics & common sense).

    Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas in areas that lack the fundamental geological & meteorological conditions that allow cheap & prolific geothermal heat to be leveraged to provide great utility is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E.

    (Please note I'm responding directly to the violent & noisy simian who started the thread.)
    Bolding above was mine.



    So it seems to me that some people have the view that 'ideas are dangerous' - that's my interpretation of someone's beliefs when they vigorously attack the messenger as the "violent & noisy simian who started the thread" - all for simply posting and quoting a media article to its own thread.

    Here's just a single post's loaded words all adding up to vitriol:

    "Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas "

    "ridiculously stupid

    "inane"

    "wasteful idea"

    "is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E"



    Below, excerpts of this thread's opening two posts. (Again, bolding is mine.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nton-1.2461361

    Should Edmonton be looking at heating downtown sidewalks and streets to clear them of ice and snow in the winter?

    The idea is officially part of the city's winter strategy calling for pilot projects of heating sidewalks in downtown business zones, but nothing concrete has been done so far.

    With major developments slated for Edmonton such as The Quarters, the Blatchford redevelopment, Boyle Renaissance area and the arena district, over the next few years, it's now an ideal time to seriously consider heating city sidewalks, said Coun. Ben Henderson.

    "The information we got from Scandinavia was that there were huge health benefits to this particularly seniors who are scared of going outside," he said.

    Henderson also suggested warming sidewalks around LRT stations "where there's a lot of pedestrian traffic, where the snow gets tramped down really quickly and its hard to deal with it in any other way."
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    More from above article:

    Holland, Mich., which gets up to 250 centimetres of snow each year, has been pumping waste heat from its power plant under streets and sidewalks since redeveloping its downtown in 1998.

    The volcanic island of Iceland uses geothermal heat to keep its streets, parking lots and sidewalks clear of snow.

    "In many places of the world, people are plugging into the earth's crust for different degrees of heat," Eirikur Hjalmarsson, head of communications at Reykjavik Energy, told CBC Edmonton AM. "Here in Iceland we drill one kilometre down and we reach temperatures of 70 to 300 C."

    That has reduced falling accidents, which are costly to the health system and reduced the need for snowplowing, he said.

    While Edmonton is a long way from a volcano, Henderson believes there are ways to heat city streets from such sources as waste heat from nearby buildings.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So it seems to me that some people have the view that 'ideas are dangerous' - that's my interpretation of someone's beliefs when they vigorously attack the messenger as the "violent & noisy simian who started the thread" - all for simply posting and quoting a media article to its own thread.

    Here's just a single post's loaded words all adding up to vitriol:

    "Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas "

    "ridiculously stupid

    "inane"

    "wasteful idea"

    "is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E"
    Or you could realize my necro-bump of this thread was a tongue-in-cheek response to SDM's attempted call out in the stupid hot springs thread about my dislike for the inane fixation on heating up the great outdoors as some sort of winter panacea as being reactionary/contrarian, driven solely by my dislike of one poster & not based on my own personal beliefs & an understanding of basic thermodynamics?

    Nah, then you wouldn't be able to type out yet another overly verbose, condescending screed!

    The more you try and post as if you're some sort of mental juggernaut the less viable that very notion becomes.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    This is another ridiculously stupid, inane & wasteful idea that runs perfectly counter to the CoE's Energy Transition Strategy (along with the fundamentals of thermodynamics & common sense).

    Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas in areas that lack the fundamental geological & meteorological conditions that allow cheap & prolific geothermal heat to be leveraged to provide great utility is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E.

    (Please note I'm responding directly to the violent & noisy simian who started the thread.)


    "This is another ridiculously stupid, inane & wasteful idea that runs perfectly counter to the CoE's Energy Transition Strategy " - noodle (above)


    Further reading.

    The City of Edmonton Energy Transition Plan 2.3.10 Energy Mapping Feasibility Study January 31, 2014

    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...gy_Mapping.pdf

  16. #116

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    Montreal moves forward on heated sidewalks
    By Morgan Lowrie January 28, 2017 Canadian Press

    Excerpt:

    “(Heated sidewalks) will accentuate the commercial attraction of the city in the winter by allowing pedestrians and shoppers to walk on sidewalks that are clear most of the time,” said city spokeswoman Geneviève Dubé.

    “Accessibility will be improved by this fact, and damage to city property and trees will be reduced because there will be fewer snow-clearing operations.”
    ...

    "Construction is set to begin in 2018, while a second phase two years later would expand the heated surface to 2.2 kilometres.

    While it may seem like a pipe dream, warmed walkways are not uncommon in the rest of the world.

    The volcanic city of Reykjavik heats its streets through geothermal energy, while cities such as Sapporo and Oslo use electric heat."

    ...

    "Saskatoon has included heated sidewalks in its medium-term plans to redevelop its city centre, but officials are not pursuing it actively at present, according to planning director Lesley Anderson. Other projects in Canada are small scale, limited to hospitals, private driveways and short commercial stretches.

    "
    ...


    https://globalnews.ca/news/3211342/m...ted-sidewalks/

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So it seems to me that some people have the view that 'ideas are dangerous' - that's my interpretation of someone's beliefs when they vigorously attack the messenger as the "violent & noisy simian who started the thread" - all for simply posting and quoting a media article to its own thread.

    Here's just a single post's loaded words all adding up to vitriol:

    "Attempting to ape Icelandic ideas "

    "ridiculously stupid

    "inane"

    "wasteful idea"

    "is some grade-A brokebrained crap, even for C2E"
    Or you could realize my necro-bump of this thread was a tongue-in-cheek response to SDM's attempted call out in the stupid hot springs thread about my dislike for the inane fixation on heating up the great outdoors as some sort of winter panacea as being reactionary/contrarian, driven solely by my dislike of one poster & not based on my own personal beliefs & an understanding of basic thermodynamics?

    Nah, then you wouldn't be able to type out yet another overly verbose, condescending screed!

    The more you try and post as if you're some sort of mental juggernaut the less viable that very notion becomes.
    Oh, I'm no mental juggernaut and my periodic ramblings and oddball posts should have made that obvious to everyone. Just look at how many reference pieces I post along with any comments or arguments. Oten I will post contradictory references just to highlight my own lack of certainty on any issue and to get some half intelligent debate going.

    In fact, I've often posted that I'm very much an ***** and/or very ignorant on most matters. So anyone that thinks I have uniformly normal intelligence should be immediatley corrected.

    Moreover, I'm an anonymous poster here. That's ANONYMOUS. Maybe start thinking about the ramifications and lack thereof of that.

    Lastly, maybe, you should worry that your practiced hostility in online communication (as evidenced on this forum) might seep into your own personal world. It would be no way to treat family or friends, especially impressionable children.

    As for inane fixations... threads sit idle for long periods and you find any little short lived revival of such ideas as "finance fixation"? You need to allow yourself to expand your horizons and visions - or at least allow for others to toy around with their own visions without berating them. Outlandish ideas - like horizontal drilling, solar power, electric cars, you name it, have all been denigrated by closed minded or short sighted individuals. Eventually some ideas fly while other crash - and none of us on this forum will accurately predict any more than a few of such advances and failures.
    Last edited by KC; 06-10-2017 at 10:14 AM.

  18. #118

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    Hahaha, just like yesterday KC misinterprets or otherwise gets something wrong & screams off at a tangent to show how smart he is based on that first initial error.

    Just to be absolutely clear: I brought this topic back from the dead as a tongue-in-cheek joke. My use of words like "ape", "noisy", "simian" & such are deliberate callbacks to SDM's name, while the violence is due to the direct threat he's made to punch me in the face in person if we were to meet.

    "Brokebrained" was used simply due to the overzealous word filter on the board.

    But please, keep on doubling down over & over to prove you're right & I'm wrong thanks to you not getting a joke. Bonus points for the obvious thesaurus use.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  19. #119

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    Iceland has these


    Any of them around Edmonton?

    If so, can you give me an address?

    Case closed...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Hahaha, just like yesterday KC misinterprets or otherwise gets something wrong & screams off at a tangent to show how smart he is based on that first initial error.

    Just to be absolutely clear: I brought this topic back from the dead as a tongue-in-cheek joke. My use of words like "ape", "noisy", "simian" & such are deliberate callbacks to SDM's name, while the violence is due to the direct threat he's made to punch me in the face in person if we were to meet.

    "Brokebrained" was used simply due to the overzealous word filter on the board.

    But please, keep on doubling down over & over to prove you're right & I'm wrong thanks to you not getting a joke. Bonus points for the obvious thesaurus use.
    I'm not doubling down. Yesterday when I finally realized my error in attributing 'ideas are dangerous' to you and not SDM - I corrected it immediately via BIG BOLD letters and moved on without comment regarding your hostility. However, today, the finding your similarly reactive and hostile postings highlighted to me the 'funny' coincidence. So I too was just being tongue in cheek. Don't you get it? Oh, did I like you leave out this:

    So a lesson for both of us. One simply has to ask: To what end do screed and hostile loaded postings serve - anonymous screed and hostile postings no less? It wasn't funny, or entertaining. It wasn't congratulatory, nor informative. Did it in any way shape forearm help the thread discussion or just highjack it? It was hostile.
    (You can easily ignore threads and thread revivals or do you feel compelled to police and engage in anonymous character assininsion of every poster of every thread?)

  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Iceland has these


    Any of them around Edmonton?

    If so, can you give me an address?

    Case closed...

    "Here in Iceland we drill one kilometre down" according to the article above.

    Other entities use waste heat.

    Seems to open up a potential case - well beyond my ability to judge the efficacy of one way or the other.

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I'm not doubling down. Yesterday when I finally realized my error in attributing 'ideas are dangerous' to you and not SDM - I corrected it immediately via BIG BOLD letters and moved on without comment regarding your hostility. However, today, the finding your similarly reactive and hostile postings highlighted to me the 'funny' coincidence. So I too was just being tongue in cheek. Don't you get it?
    It's not a funny coincidence. It was completely intentional & your attempts to sound/look insightful by dissecting the blatantly obvious while trying to take me down a peg only continues to reinforce my opinions of you. And my hostility towards you attempting to put words in my mouth was entirely justified, especially after I challenged you on it & you stuck to your guns. Apologies if I take blatant misrepresentation seriously; you all like jumping on me for whatever I say that I'd like to avoid being jumped on for stuff I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So a lesson for both of us. One simply has to ask: To what end do screed postings serve - anonymous screed postings no less? It wasn't funny, or entertaining. It wasn't congratulatory, nor informative. Did it in any way shape forearm help the thread discussion or just highjack it? It was hostile.
    My posts serve my ends quite well. My ends may not be yours & while I appreciate your criticism, given I hold you in low regard you'll understand if I don't actually consider it in any meaningful way.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    (You can easily ignore threads and thread revivals or do you feel compelled to police and engage in anonymous character assininsion of every poster of every thread?)
    Just like all of the posters with a chip on their shoulder towards me regarding my postings or interactions with others on the forums are free to ignore me, rather than piling on & assuming every motivation I have is due to me just not liking someone rather than me expressing my own opinions gleaned from my own life experience.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I'm not doubling down. Yesterday when I finally realized my error in attributing 'ideas are dangerous' to you and not SDM - I corrected it immediately via BIG BOLD letters and moved on without comment regarding your hostility. However, today, the finding your similarly reactive and hostile postings highlighted to me the 'funny' coincidence. So I too was just being tongue in cheek. Don't you get it?
    It's not a funny coincidence. It was completely intentional & your attempts to sound/look insightful by dissecting the blatantly obvious while trying to take me down a peg only continues to reinforce my opinions of you. And my hostility towards you attempting to put words in my mouth was entirely justified, especially after I challenged you on it & you stuck to your guns. Apologies if I take blatant misrepresentation seriously; you all like jumping on me for whatever I say that I'd like to avoid being jumped on for stuff I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So a lesson for both of us. One simply has to ask: To what end do screed postings serve - anonymous screed postings no less? It wasn't funny, or entertaining. It wasn't congratulatory, nor informative. Did it in any way shape forearm help the thread discussion or just highjack it? It was hostile.
    My posts serve my ends quite well. My ends may not be yours & while I appreciate your criticism, given I hold you in low regard you'll understand if I don't actually consider it in any meaningful way.

    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    (You can easily ignore threads and thread revivals or do you feel compelled to police and engage in anonymous character assininsion of every poster of every thread?)
    Just like all of the posters with a chip on their shoulder towards me regarding my postings or interactions with others on the forums are free to ignore me, rather than piling on & assuming every motivation I have is due to me just not liking someone rather than me expressing my own opinions gleaned from my own life experience.
    Our opinions, positive or negative, of each other don’t mean anything beyond interfering with efficient discussions. (You’re absolutely fine and in your mind justified in having an extremely low opinion of me.) Hiwevef such opinions serve no good purpose.

    Ideally each post could stand on its own facts and reasoning to shape the course of the discussion.

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Our opinions, positive or negative, of each other don’t mean anything beyond interfering with efficient discussions.
    This place is a raging dumpster fire of opinions & entrenched positions. You're free to try and whizz onto the fire in an effort to put it out, but you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. This is not a place for rational, thoughtful discussion & hasn't been for the vast majority of my time here. Debate & discussion have long since left town, right around when the first & best crop of thoughtful posters got shooed away by the hive mind & we began the long, slow descent into the current morass.

    Honestly, you'd likely best be served by throwing me on ignore. I certainly don't take being ignored personally & no longer engage in the practice myself, but evidently it's made the forums much more enjoyable for people who share similar sentiments about me as you do.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  25. #125
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    Okay we don't have the abundant access to elevated geothermal temperatures Iceland does, but we do have refineries and other heavy industries that need cool water. So we could pump the warm water around to various places to do something similar.

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