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Thread: Military Upgrade - CHEAP

  1. #1

    Default Military Upgrade - CHEAP

    I've always wondered we why don't buy much more used equipment. (Unfortunately, the answer is pretty obvious.)

    However, this is FREE and so you'd think hard to ignore! We could take them all!!! Use them in our police departments too.

    (Take three or four extras for each one you would use and you've got all the parts you'd need. Plus the mfgr could provide parts.)


    A quote from below. Might be handy having these around for flooding, or other extreme conditions...

    "In New York, the Albany County sheriff’s department already had four smaller military-surplus Humvees, which have been used for storm evacuations and to pull trees out of roadways"




    Pentagon giving away 13,000 armored trucks
    The vehicles, which cost about $500,000 new, have outlived their purpose, officials say.
    By Bob Tita, The Wall Street Journal
    excerpt:

    "Available: armored patrol trucks; battle-tested; some dents, dings, shrapnel scars. Price: free.


    The Pentagon wants to give away 13,000 mine-resistant, ambush-protected trucks because they have outlived their original purpose.

    "We've notified our friends and allies that we have MRAPs available and if they want them they can have them," says Alan Estevez, deputy undersecretary of defense for acquisitions, technology and logistics.

    Unclaimed trucks are probably destined for the scrap heap "...

    "Interest from foreign militaries has been tepid. But they are a hit with stateside police agencies. Almost 200 trucks have been distributed to police departments since August and requests are pending for an additional 750 trucks. The vehicles, many of which feature machine-gun turrets, are off-limits to private citizens and businesses."

    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...armored-trucks




    Pentagon contends with surplus of armored trucks
    By Marjorie Censer, Published: March 7, 2012

    "Once the vehicles are off the battlefield, maintaining them is expected to cost less, but they will still require regular maintenance, such as checking fluids and batteries."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...axR_story.html




    Leftover armored trucks from Iraq coming to local police agencies
    The Albany County sheriff’s office is among eight law-enforcement agencies in New York that have received the free mine-resistant ambush-protected vehicles, made for $500,000 apiece. Civil liberties advocates, meanwhile, see it as the increasing militarization of police forces.

    THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2013,

    "Ohio State University campus police got one, saying they would use it in large-scale emergencies and to provide a police presence on football game days. Others went to police in High Springs, Fla., and the sheriff’s office in Dallas County, Texas.

    In Boise, Idaho, police reported using their MRAP two weeks ago to serve a warrant, saying they had evidence the suspect might be heavily armed and have explosives. Authorities said they found 100 pounds of bomb-making material and two guns. A second MRAP from nearby Nampa’s police department was used to shield officers and neighbors from a possible explosion.

    In New York, the Albany County sheriff’s department already had four smaller military-surplus Humvees, which have been used for storm evacuations and to pull trees out of roadways. The new MRAP truck will go into service after technicians remove the gun turret and change the paint from military sand to civilian black."

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1527650




    How High Springs Police Snagged A $600,000 MRAP For $2,000
    By Joy King on October 14th, 2013

    "The vehicle cost the city about $2,000, a fraction of the $600,000 it cost to produce. ..."

    “A $250,000 vehicle would be the normal replacement for our SWAT vehicle and we didn’t have $250,000 lying around,” Tobias said."

    http://www.wuft.org/news/2013/10/14/...mrap-for-2000/


    .
    Last edited by KC; 23-01-2014 at 01:34 PM.

  2. #2
    C2E SME
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    Yeah, buying used subs really worked out great for the Navy.

  3. #3

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    The military is uninterested because we've already bought a similar vehicle, the RG-31 Nyala. Since we've mostly left Afghanistan and were never involved in Iraq, it makes more sense to spend maintenance money on the vehicles we've already bought, rather then pay to import and maintain another vehicle version entirely.

    I think the police in Canada tries to project a less para-military image then in the states, so its unlikely to want these in any numbers. If the armoured vehicles used by the tactical units of the City Police and the RCMP were near the end of life, it might make sense to grab a couple of these, but if their vehicles are still operational, it again makes more sense to spend your maintenance money on your existing, known quantity of a vehicle.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    The military is uninterested because we've already bought a similar vehicle, the RG-31 Nyala. Since we've mostly left Afghanistan and were never involved in Iraq, it makes more sense to spend maintenance money on the vehicles we've already bought, rather then pay to import and maintain another vehicle version entirely.

    I think the police in Canada tries to project a less para-military image then in the states, so its unlikely to want these in any numbers. If the armoured vehicles used by the tactical units of the City Police and the RCMP were near the end of life, it might make sense to grab a couple of these, but if their vehicles are still operational, it again makes more sense to spend your maintenance money on your existing, known quantity of a vehicle.
    ^^ Yeah I couldn't believe how badly the the sub fiasco became. (Think of all the unreported problems with those things within various Navy inventories.)

    Regarding the RG-31, you could put those in lightly maintained storage for 4 or 5 years - or even 10 years for that matter - and use the American ones in the interim. That way you'd dramatically increase the odds of having a good, solid, like-new vehicle to deploy in the case of another wartime need. Use up the used American vehicles during peacetime when you can easily manage the maintenance issues.



    Time for another Warren Buffett quote:

    "Our basic principle is that if you want to shoot rare, fast-moving elephants, you should always carry a loaded gun." -Warren Buffett in the 1987 Berkshire Hathaway Shareholder Letter

    (Buffett thinks and acts opportunistically, going out and borrowing when rates are cheap even though he doesn't have a use for the borrowed money. He says that cheap money opportunities rarely coincide with great investment opportunities. That applies to much in life. So since this is partly a financial decision, by analogy, the military can act opportunistically, get and use this dirt cheap military equipment and keep their loaded gun - the RG-31 - at the ready.))



    We all continuously demand that our government act more fiscally responsible yet on the most basic issues, we through a wrench into operating sensibilities, sensibilities that we might apply in our own home or business. Specifically Buffett says:

    "One further aspect of our debt policy deserves comment:
    Unlike many in the business world, we prefer to finance in
    anticipation of need rather than in reaction to it. A business
    obtains the best financial results possible by managing both
    sides of its balance sheet well. This means obtaining the
    highest-possible return on assets and the lowest-possible cost on
    liabilities. It would be convenient if opportunities for
    intelligent action on both fronts coincided. However, reason
    tells us that just the opposite is likely to be the case"
    - 1987 report


    For example, you buy a new Sears lawnmower then your neighbour offers to give you their used but still working Honda mulching, rear bagging, self driving mower saying its going to the the dump if you don't take it. Why wouldn't you take it and use up its remaining useful life? Then pull your Sears mower off the shelf. Your previous 15 yr Sears mowing life span has now been extended to maybe 20 or 25 years at a minimal cost. Otherrwise you face spending full price at the end of that previous 15 yr Sears lifespan. What's the present value of a worn, but not worn out, $600,000 unit?
    .
    Last edited by KC; 23-01-2014 at 03:19 PM.

  5. #5
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    As the subs demonstrated, buying used comes with a lot of risks and costs. Even the six Chinooks we bought second hand for Afghanistan required a lot of work to get up and flying once they were delivered. I believe we ended up selling those when we left Afghanistan as we were purchasing new ones tailored to our needs.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  6. #6

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    Most of those will go to the police forces. The increased Militarization of police forces is nothing new. They have been conditioning the masses to accept it for a long time. Nothing surprising here
    youtube.com/BrothersGrim
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  7. #7

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    I'll take all the armored truck they will give me.

    Who wouldn't want one of these when you are trying to find parking at IKEA?


    http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post...armored-trucks


    Does it come with a CD player?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  8. #8

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    Maybe not mainstream police force but perhaps ERT or tactical teams. In Canada that still may not amount to very many but if 'free' really is free, then pick up a few dozen and then a few more dozen to part out.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  9. #9

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    I wonder how they perform in snow and mud.

    The various oil sands plants and remote sites might be able to use such vehicles for EMS services.




    Look what happens when you offer cheap and free military equipment to the public...


    http://www.t3licensing.com/license/clip/943000_3409.do

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6wwizIzkmY
    Last edited by KC; 23-01-2014 at 04:21 PM.

  10. #10

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    I think this is a recurring issue in military. Here is what came to my mind when reading this thread: Airplane graveyards:




  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I think this is a recurring issue in military. Here is what came to my mind when reading this thread: Airplane graveyards:
    Aircraft graveyards like AAMARAM are a little different game.

    The agreements from the arms talks of past years was (in part) military aircraft not active had to be parked where they could be viewed by satellite.

    B-52s and other bombers specifically are to be in view and only cut up when a specific satellite is overhead to verify the destruction in process. This only give the satellite a few hours per day overhead and with that short a time it is taking many years to cut up the B-52s.

    Others like the F-16 and others are held as for reactivation (7-30-60 day as I recall) and once pulled from reactivation then become parts aircraft.

    Once a certain age is reached (varies with aircraft) they go final disassemble for parts and then the airframe is cut up and melted down on site into ingots.

    If you every get the chance to see AMARAM in Tuscon it is well worth the visit and the time it takes for a tour.

    Maximum recycling at its best.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I think this is a recurring issue in military. Here is what came to my mind when reading this thread: Airplane graveyards:



    But then some department says install CFs in your home and it will save the environment.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    ...but if 'free' really is free...
    Once you add up the cost of moving it, inspecting it and repairing it, not to mention all the bureaucratic man hours you have to throw into the entire process it's really not free.

    On top of that when you know there is a risk that you're getting a lemon, I'm not surprised that giving these things away is proving more difficult than one might think.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder how they perform in snow and mud.
    The various oil sands plants and remote sites might be able to use such vehicles for EMS services.
    Look what happens when you offer cheap and free military equipment to the public...
    You don't want to allow these to get into the hands of organized crime or Justin Bieber
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  15. #15

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    There is no such a thing as a free lunch, once a vehicle reaches a certain age it costs more to maintain than it is worth. Often parts and fuel can cost more than the equipment, I'm guessing some parts suppliers are crossing fingers some foolish military will take this junk.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    There is no such a thing as a free lunch, once a vehicle reaches a certain age it costs more to maintain than it is worth. Often parts and fuel can cost more than the equipment, I'm guessing some parts suppliers are crossing fingers some foolish military will take this junk.
    They cost more to maintain than they are worth but that does not always make economic sense. You can have a car that is only worth $500 and needs $1,000 in tires and maintenance but that is still a deal compared to buying a new car. Most people with a budget will spend the $1,000 because even the GST on a new car can be that much.

    The difference is that the military are always pressured by the arms manufacturer's to buy their latest technology and face it, the military likes their toys. Compared to the car example above, that military hardware does not come out of the military purchaser's pocket but rather the pocket of the tax payer who owns the $500 car who is just trying to keep their only vehicle on the road because he needs to get to work.

    Military's always have surpluses when finishing a war. That is just the nature of the Military-Industrial Complex.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  17. #17

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    Two economists are walking down the street when one points to the ground and says, “Look, a ten dollar bill!”

    The second economist replies, “That’s crazy. If that was a ten dollar bill someone would have picked it up already.”

  18. #18

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Two economists are walking down the street when one points to the ground and says, “Look, a ten dollar bill!”

    The second economist replies, “That’s crazy. If that was a ten dollar bill someone would have picked it up already.”
    The investor walking behind, did not pick it up either as the Canadian $10 bill was still dropped in value and will only pick it up when the currency bottoms out.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Two economists are walking down the street when one points to the ground and says, “Look, a ten dollar bill!”

    The second economist replies, “That’s crazy. If that was a ten dollar bill someone would have picked it up already.”
    The investor walking behind, did not pick it up either as the Canadian $10 bill was still dropped in value and will only pick it up when the currency bottoms out.
    the best one I've seen in a long time! Most excellent shot at me (I presume).

  21. #21

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    As Surplus Military Equipment Is Used in Houston, White House Changes Policy Enacted After Ferguson
    Excerpt:
    “On occasion such equipment can be overused by police,” Malcolm told The Daily Signal, adding that this can escalate rather than de-escalate a situation.

    “But when you need it, you really, really need it, and it can result in saving lives,” Malcolm added. “Better training and better guidelines are the answer. But it should be available. Now, as we speak, this equipment is being used in Houston to save lives.”

    http://dailysignal.com/2017/08/28/as...fter-ferguson/




    Trump restores police surplus military equipment scheme - BBC News
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41078158




    North Texas police agencies: Military weapons not what people think | Crime | Dallas News

    August 2014

    County officials envision using the vehicle in active shooter situations and to get into areas that are otherwise inaccessible.
    Sheriff Harold Eavenson said he wishes he had the vehicles when tornadoes hit the southeastern part of the county in 2012.
    “There was significant debris and places our vehicles couldn’t have gone,” he said. “If we have a flooding situation, this vehicle can go places that are too high-water for our other vehicles.”

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...t-people-think
    Bolding is mine


    Military equipment was beneficial during October floods | KXAN.com
    Nov 3, 2015


    SAN MARCOS, Texas (KXAN) — Mine resistant ambush protected vehicle, otherwise known as MRAP, and similar military vehicles came under scrutiny last year following the protests in Ferguson, Mo. While some question why local law enforcement agencies would acquire and use heavy-duty equipment, local police agencies say they are useful when the situation calls for it.

    As the water kept on rising in San Marcos last week, the MRAP that the San Marcos Police Department acquired in 2013 was used to rescue hundreds of people.

    “It can do so much more. This is twice that we have used it in the flooding,” says Sgt. Erin Clewell. The city also used it during the Memorial Day weekend floods, where they rescued 25 people with the MRAP.


    http://kxan.com/2015/11/03/military-...ring-flooding/


    A c2e cross reference:

    Militarization of Police
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...tion-of-Police
    Last edited by KC; 31-08-2017 at 01:03 AM.

  22. #22

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    ... I wonder if any of these politically incorrect vehicles are being used in California to rescue people from the fires and mud slides.





    Remember When San Diego Unified Had An MRAP? District Says It Won’t Happen Again
    Wednesday, August 30, 2017
    By Megan Burks


    Though the vehicle was free, Superintendent Cindy Marten approved a $5,000 expenditure to transport it to San Diego.

    The district intended to use its MRAP for rescues in crisis situations such as school shootings. Students in Morse High School’s Auto Collision and Refinishing Program transformed the tan, tank-like vehicle with white paint and red crosses. But the vehicle arrived at a time of public outrage over images of police tanks and heavily armed officers squaring off with Black Lives Matter demonstrators in Ferguson, Missouri, following the police shooting death of Michael Brown.

    The district returned the vehicle...”

    http://www.kpbs.org/news/2017/aug/30...rap-district-/


    Military surplus program saved lives during Harvey, Houston-area law enforcement say

    Trucks for rescues gained through controversial '1033' program

    By Keri BlakingerOctober 22, 2017

    http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news...g-12297966.php

  23. #23

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    Military surplus program saved lives during Harvey, Houston-area law enforcement say - Houston Chronicle
    Excerpt
    Dubbed "1033" after the section of law that created it, the program has come under criticism for bulking up law enforcement with resources designed for war. But local police agencies say the equipment - credited with helping save more than 10,000 people in Harris County during Harvey - took them to areas they couldn't have reached without it.

    "They tend to think that we're militarizing ourselves. No, we're not," said Sgt. Jimmie Cook, who helps oversee the Harris County Sheriff's Office 1033 program. "We're not looking for M16s. It's useful gear that helps supplement our budget and it doesn't cost the county anything except for the tank of gas to go pick it up." ...

    http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news...g-12297966.php

  24. #24

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    Did you need to post the same article twice in 2 days?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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