Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 300 of 784

Thread: 102 Ave Bridge over Groat Road - Bridge Replacement | complete

  1. #201

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Its awful .But I would prefer it happen now, than when it is all done !
    If it was all done, it wouldn't have happened!
    You know that for a fact do you Isn't this the same unstable area where the houses fell into the river?????
    Yes. I do. I'm omnicient.

  2. #202

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Not so fast.................


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw
    That was harmonic resonance due to high winds on a suspension bridge. This isn't a suspension bridge...
    Last edited by lat; 17-03-2015 at 03:41 PM.

  3. #203
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Actually right now it is a suspension bridge or perhaps cable stayed.

    Anyways how do you x-ray something that large? Do they put some sort of emitter on one side and a detector on the other?

  4. #204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Actually right now it is a suspension bridge or perhaps cable stayed.

    Anyways how do you x-ray something that large? Do they put some sort of emitter on one side and a detector on the other?
    lol... and they were trying to blame it on the wind too!

  5. #205

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Not so fast.................


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw
    That was harmonic resonance due to high winds on a suspension bridge. This isn't a suspension bridge...
    I realize it was a suspension bridge with a lot bigger span but there are a fair amount of beam/truss/cable style/arch bridges that have hit the deck.
    Pardon the pun.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  6. #206

    Default



    Edmonton gives up and decides to go green and build this over the Groat Road.
    https://www.google.ca/search?q=rope+...w=1051&bih=474
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  7. #207

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Not so fast.................


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw
    That was harmonic resonance due to high winds on a suspension bridge. This isn't a suspension bridge...
    I realize it was a suspension bridge with a lot bigger span but there are a fair amount of beam/truss/cable style/arch bridges that have hit the deck.
    Pardon the pun.
    Also, engineers learned from this failure and have modified their designs to take a potential failure like this into account. The girders on this bridge had insufficient lateral support in place since the structure wasn't complete. similar to the studs in a house being quite weak until the plywood is put up to stiffen it...

  8. #208

    Default

    What will they have to do to make sure the new girders do not bend like the last ones, or do you think they a trying to figure it out.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  9. #209

    Default

    Install them properly next time. They screwed up royally during the lift. If they had done it correctly and/or braced the girders properly, we'd have no problem...

  10. #210
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,182

    Default

    Loved Don Iveson's childish reactions on the 6 o'clock news last night when pressed by media

    The man still has a lot of growing up to do
    Parkdale

  11. #211
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I never understood why the 3 week delay, I figured a few days to remove the bent beams, until Barry Belcourt explained that they were lucky to get a large enough crane from Acheson, but it would take 1 week to setup, 1 week to remove the beams and another week to tear down the crane... sigh.

  12. #212
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Canada
    Posts
    5,294

    Default

    On a more positive and, to be fair, pro-active note:

    Days after girders installed on the new 102 Avenue Bridge over Groat Road buckled, leaving a major roadway closed and delaying construction on the project, officials have made changes to traffic signals, parking restrictions and transit detours to better accommodate the closure.

    Traffic signals have been changed on major detour routes to handle higher traffic volumes – more signs have been added to inform drivers of the closure.

    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/changes-m...t-rd-1.2286127
    ... gobsmacked

  13. #213
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Where ever Visa is accepted
    Posts
    4,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Loved Don Iveson's childish reactions on the 6 o'clock news last night when pressed by media

    The man still has a lot of growing up to do
    + 1 especially his remarks regarding businesses in the area.
    I'm having people over later to stare at their phones,if you want to drop by

  14. #214
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    9,542

    Default

    Any links to Iveson's comments?

  15. #215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbon-14 View Post
    A civil engineer friend of mine suspects Lateral torsional buckling

    https://youtu.be/wUkvxHqPbTY

    Caused by inadequate temporary bracing no doubt.


    Thankfully nobody was hurt and the structure didn't experience a complete load failure. Imagine the duration of the Groat Road closure if all the beams, the bracing, foundations and the cranes ended up on the valley floor?

  16. #216
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Might have been quicker (except the investigation), right now they have to ensure the existing beams don't come down accidently, if they were already down you just pick up the pieces and reopen.

  17. #217
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    I've been hearing more comments from engineers over the last day and there definitely seems to be consensus that the most likely explanation is inadequate bracing. The guy on CBC this morning was interesting as he said that generally these kinds of things are caused by multiple factors that conspire to cause the failure, so it's possible the the bracing should have been enough but some other unknown factor was involved.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  18. #218

    Default Bracing vs Foundation

    I am not buying that the bracing was the issue. If these beams need so much bracing, how did they ever put up the first one? There was nothing to brace it to.

    My money is on a support or foundation failure.
    Last edited by pietschu; 19-03-2015 at 10:28 AM.

  19. #219
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pietschu View Post
    I am not buying that the bracing was the issue. If these beams need so much bracing, how did they ever put up the first one? There was nothing to brace it to.

    My money is on a support or foundation failure.
    Load on the entire structure rises with every beam added.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  20. #220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Load on the entire structure rises with every beam added.
    Wasn't sure what you meant with "entire structure".

    The load on the support / foundation rises with each added beam. The load on each beam remains unchanged and consists mainly of supporting it's own weight.

  21. #221

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pietschu View Post
    I am not buying that the bracing was the issue. If these beams need so much bracing, how did they ever put up the first one? There was nothing to brace it to.

    My money is on a support or foundation failure.

    Quite possible. You can see the initial load drop on the 2am photo, before the torsional buckling that was displayed in the 2:15am one.

    It'll take a few months for the eggheads to determine the root cause(s) and hopefully additional controls will be in place once the new steel is ready.

  22. #222
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pietschu View Post
    I am not buying that the bracing was the issue. If these beams need so much bracing, how did they ever put up the first one? There was nothing to brace it to.

    My money is on a support or foundation failure.
    The 1st beam was placed 14th between 6:45 AM and 7:00 AM the had at least one crane holding it until the 15th between 2:45 AM and 3:00 AM by 3:00 AM they had placed all the bracing between the 1st and 2nd beams.

    So the 1st beam was never unsupported until it was tied into the 2nd beam.

  23. #223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pietschu View Post
    I am not buying that the bracing was the issue. If these beams need so much bracing, how did they ever put up the first one? There was nothing to brace it to.

    My money is on a support or foundation failure.
    The 1st beam was placed 14th between 6:45 AM and 7:00 AM the had at least one crane holding it until the 15th between 2:45 AM and 3:00 AM by 3:00 AM they had placed all the bracing between the 1st and 2nd beams.

    So the 1st beam was never unsupported until it was tied into the 2nd beam.
    Thank you.

    March 14, 2015 - 3:58pm

    Last edited by lat; 19-03-2015 at 11:50 AM.

  24. #224

    Default

    ^ and ^^

    Thanks for the clarification and the picture. Did the cranes stop supporting the beams once the 2nd was in place and the cross bracing was added?

  25. #225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    The 1st beam was placed 14th between 6:45 AM and 7:00 AM the had at least one crane holding it until the 15th between 2:45 AM and 3:00 AM by 3:00 AM they had placed all the bracing between the 1st and 2nd beams.

    So the 1st beam was never unsupported until it was tied into the 2nd beam.
    Exactly.

    Beam 3 remained supported until the two temporary braces between beam 2 and 3 were installed. But permanent bracing between beams 2 and 3 was complete before beam 4 installation. That's where procedure changed (whether by design or not).

    Beam 4 is installed with only two temporary braces, therefore Girder buckling capacity is low. Beam 5 likewise is installed with only two temporary braces. Lateral stress is starting to add up. Beam 6, still supported, is bolted into place along with two temporary braces. As support for beam 6 from the cranes is reduced, the cumulative lateral stress is too much for the six (i.e. two per beam) temporary braces and, well, Bob's yer uncle.

    So it seems reasonable to assume that:
    a) engineer calculations of girder buckling capacity for the use and placement of two temporary braces was incorrect;
    b) installation procedure failed to follow specifications
    c) some other factor(s) contributed to a) being insufficiently determined.

    My guess is an over use of temporary bracing (i.e. delayed installation of permanent bracing) in an effort to speed up installation due to weather conditions putting them behind schedule.

    Fun stuff if it wasn't all so expensive and darned inconvenient.

  26. #226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    The 1st beam was placed 14th between 6:45 AM and 7:00 AM the had at least one crane holding it until the 15th between 2:45 AM and 3:00 AM by 3:00 AM they had placed all the bracing between the 1st and 2nd beams.

    So the 1st beam was never unsupported until it was tied into the 2nd beam.
    Exactly.

    Beam 3 remained supported until the two temporary braces between beam 2 and 3 were installed. But permanent bracing between beams 2 and 3 was complete before beam 4 installation. That's where procedure changed (whether by design or not).

    Beam 4 is installed with only two temporary braces, therefore Girder buckling capacity is low. Beam 5 likewise is installed with only two temporary braces. Lateral stress is starting to add up. Beam 6, still supported, is bolted into place along with two temporary braces. As support for beam 6 from the cranes is reduced, the cumulative lateral stress is too much for the six (i.e. two per beam) temporary braces and, well, Bob's yer uncle.

    So it seems reasonable to assume that:
    a) engineer calculations of girder buckling capacity for the use and placement of two temporary braces was incorrect;
    b) installation procedure failed to follow specifications
    c) some other factor(s) contributed to a) being insufficiently determined.

    My guess is an over use of temporary bracing (i.e. delayed installation of permanent bracing) in an effort to speed up installation due to weather conditions putting them behind schedule.

    Fun stuff if it wasn't all so expensive and darned inconvenient.
    My thoughts exactly.

  27. #227
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In a van down by the river
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Any links to Iveson's comments?
    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/video?cli...ylistPageNum=1

    What a joke
    It's not EIA it's YEG

  28. #228

    Default

    The only joke I saw was CTV trying to link 3 separate projects... Total BS.

  29. #229

    Default

    ^ Iveson's surliness was uncalled for. Very unprofessional.

  30. #230
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    9,542

    Default

    Barry Belcourt's comments about using "pre-qualified contractors" are a joke. Concreate was pre-qualified for the Quesnell Bridge, despite having botched the James MacDonald and I believe one other (either Dawson or Capilano, I don't recall). Many of the other contractors cried foul that they were allowed to bid on the Quesnell rehabilitation, given their history in the city. Sure enough they completely botched the Quesnell project as well, and went under before the project was completed. What's the point of pre-qualifying if you're just going to let terrible contractors bid anyways?

    As far as Iveson went in that video, I don't blame him if he was a bit short with the CTV reporter, as she interrupted him while he was answering. That's poor form on her part as much as it is on his.

  31. #231
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Why shouldn't somebody be allowed to bid on a contract, however the city should factor in past performance in evaluating the bids, it can work for or against a contractor.

    The lowest or any bid should not have to be accepted. The city should have the opportunity to refuse all bids if there is justification (probably have to be in camera to council though).
    Last edited by sundance; 20-03-2015 at 08:36 AM.

  32. #232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PJC View Post
    ^ Iveson's surliness was uncalled for. Very unprofessional.
    I dunno, from my perspective, all he did was correct her. And the clip of him was edited so we don't know what happened before he said "next question"... Smacks of trying to create a story...

  33. #233
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton area.
    Posts
    5,824

    Default

    It would be part of his job to stick up for the city and yet try to correct the mess much like a coach of his team would (excepting of course the hairdo )

  34. #234
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton area.
    Posts
    5,824

    Default

    Has anyone had a look at what they are doing over there. I thought if they jack it up in the middle they would straighten out. Put good strong temporary support all the way along and keep going. Just replace those top plates in places

  35. #235
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    9,542

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Why shouldn't somebody be allowed to bid on a contract, however the city should factor in past performance in evaluating the bids, it can work for or against a contractor.

    The lowest or any bid should not have to be accepted. The city should have the opportunity to refuse all bids if there is justification (probably have to be in camera to council though).
    Actually, when public dollars are involved, the lowest bid MUST be accepted almost without exception. Unless there has been a very, very well thought out and legally bulletproof set of criteria other than cost that the bidders were made aware of at time of tender call. Contract law in Canada on this is very well established. Were the city to not choose the lowest bidder, it would be exposing itself to huge liability.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_A

    A breach of Contract A may occur if the owner (or an owner's officer or representative, see vicarious liability), provides information, changes specification during the tendering process to unfairly benefit a particular bidder, enters into closed negotiations with an individual bidder in an effort to obtain more desirable contract conditions, etc. The most common situation in which an owner is accused of having breached Contract A occurs when a bidder is selected who is not the lowest bidder. This contravenes established custom and practice, which would normally dictate that the lowest bid be awarded the contract, but is not normally a source of a breach if handled properly. The successful suits for breach typically occur if the lowest bidder has been excluded based on a stipulation not clearly outlined in the tender documents (such as preference for local bidders) or when the Privilege Clause employed by the owner to exclude a principle of custom and practice is judged by the courts to be too broadly worded to have any meaning.
    Given Concreate's past performance, they should not have been able to pass the pre-qualification process. But city administrators really liked the fact that they were always 10-20% lower than their competition (when their margins should only have been in the single digits, do the math). And they were allowed to bid, even though apparently they couldn't get a bond for the project, and had to get it through one of their sub-contractors. Or so I have been told.

    The Quesnell bridge was sheer mismanagement on the city's part, without a doubt. We don't know all the facts yet on the 102 Avenue or Walterdale bridges, nor on the NAIT LRT line, but it'll be interesting to see how administration attempts to pass the buck this time.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 20-03-2015 at 08:58 AM.

  36. #236
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Parkdale - Goldbar - Downtown
    Posts
    5,182

    Default

    Less applicable when pre-qualifications have not been done.

    But in this case all bidders would have been pre-qualified, so they most assuredly would have taken the low bid
    Parkdale

  37. #237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thegongshow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Any links to Iveson's comments?
    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/video?cli...ylistPageNum=1

    What a joke
    at the end of the video they mentioned the city will be doing the 53rd Ave bridge over the whitemud next year (but only if this project finishes on time).. anyone know more on that?

  38. #238
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Has anyone had a look at what they are doing over there. I thought if they jack it up in the middle they would straighten out. Put good strong temporary support all the way along and keep going. Just replace those top plates in places
    Based on the cams they've been removing the median on Groat south of the bridge so they can bring in another crane. They still haven't determined if the beams are

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  39. #239
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I disagree on the automatic acceptance of the lowest bid, so many problems have came up from this process. Price is a factor in accepting a bid, but being able to do the right job, least disruptions, on time and on cost are very important factors too.

    You want to accept the lowest bid that takes into account all things. The city has pre-qualified a lot of bidders with very poor results.

    As for 102nd Avenue Bridge there are still a multitude of reasons for this to have happened it might be a flaw in the steel, supports, bracing, wind, operator error. Until we know the cause only then can liability be given.

  40. #240
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    9,542

    Default

    Well, I guess you're going to have to go to the Supreme Court to get them to overturn their well established precedent, then.

  41. #241

    Default

    Looks like they're about to move the big gun into place.

  42. #242

    Default

    Does it seem possible the girders can be straightened while still in place?. What kind of equipment would be needed to do that?.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  43. #243
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    If you had large enough machinery sure you could, but doing so would weaken the steel even more.

    They had completed the Antelope Valley Aqueduct and because of rains and floods a section of the 10' pipe collapsed from the suction of the siphon, however William Mullholland calculated that refilling the pipe with water would cause it to re-inflate which is what happened which did save a few hundred thousand dollars at the time of reconstruction the aqueduct.
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=iP5...page&q&f=false
    This process probably reduced the lifespan of the aqueduct by probably causing additional stresses in the pipe, but the benefit far exceeded the cost.

    As an aside his career wasn't totally without controversy, he was responsible for flooding valleys to provide LA with water in addition, he also took responsibility for the collapse of the St. Francis Dam which failed 12 hours after he and 2 others inspected the dam, resulting in the deaths of around 600 people.

    So anyways to get back on point yah you can straighten the steel but without controlling the temperature you will weaken it.
    Last edited by sundance; 20-03-2015 at 02:35 PM.

  44. #244

    Default

    I should imagine it would have to be a very high temperature to get those girders to straighten. If (if) it had of been 30 below when those girders bent was there a possibility they could have snapped with it being so cold.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  45. #245
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  46. #246
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Crawford Plains, Millwoods since 1985
    Posts
    2,687

    Default

    LOL was just about to post the first one.

  47. #247

    Default

    The bendy ones were supposed to go to the Walterdale site, straight ones to the 102nd site. FCOL
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  48. #248

    Default

    Apparently they are going to lift those girders. If the first one lifted springs back in shape they will lift the other bent ones. Should be tense and interesting.

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/03/2...ack-into-shape
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  49. #249
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    43,981

    Default

    I hope there is video of that.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  50. #250
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Looks like they needed another small crane to help out as well:

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s3/sh...38d9c3e7ed31a6

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  51. #251

    Default

    That one is to build the "super crane"

  52. #252
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,041

    Default

    And if they "spring back to shape" they just reuse them? If the steel is so fragile, now weakened, how does that make sense?

    Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.

  53. #253

    Default

    The big crane they bought in specially to do this is called 'The Irish Rover'. There are only 7 like it in North America. The contractor is paying for it.

    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/crane-in-...idge-1.2289851
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  54. #254

    Default

    If the steel is still good, then use it. I don't see the problem. Or we could spend hundreds of thousands just for optics, which is money poorly spent.

    Let's wait and see if the metal is good or not, shall we?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  55. #255
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    And if they "spring back to shape" they just reuse them? If the steel is so fragile, now weakened, how does that make sense?

    Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.
    Steel will flex a fair amount without damaging the structural integrity. Right now they're under tension like a spring. When the tension is released, if they return to their original shape, then, if an engineer agrees, they should be fine. It's not like they're bending them back into shape, they're seeing if they go back on their own.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  56. #256
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,041

    Default

    ^makes sense. Still makes me a little nervous.

  57. #257

    Default

    ^Every structure you've ever been in has materials that flex in one direction and not in another, and likely has at some point prior to its final destination. Not a big deal if the material is still good.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  58. #258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    The big crane they bought in specially to do this is called 'The Irish Rover'. There are only 7 like it in North America. The contractor is paying for it.

    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/crane-in-...idge-1.2289851
    The news story has an error. The LTM 11200-9.1 crane does not weigh 1200 tons, it weighs 108 tons and can lift 1,200 tons on a 2.5 meter radius.

    One seriously expensive crane. I wonder what this thing costs to rent?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  59. #259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    And if they "spring back to shape" they just reuse them? If the steel is so fragile, now weakened, how does that make sense?

    Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.

    Drama much? Lol.


    If the steel is in an 'elastic' state it should return to it's original shape and be completely reusable.

    Considering the amount of tortional buckling, the time it has been in the deformed state, and the wide temperature swings during that period, I would expect the beams are permanently damaged and will require replacements.


    Sometime in April I would expect an updated completion date for the 102 Ave bridge in mid to late 2017.

  60. #260
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blainehamilton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    And if they "spring back to shape" they just reuse them? If the steel is so fragile, now weakened, how does that make sense?

    Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.

    Drama much? Lol.


    If the steel is in an 'elastic' state it should return to it's original shape and be completely reusable.

    Considering the amount of tortional buckling, the time it has been in the deformed state, and the wide temperature swings during that period, I would expect the beams are permanently damaged and will require replacements.


    Sometime in April I would expect an updated completion date for the 102 Ave bridge in mid to late 2017.
    From the comments in the article it sounds like the engineers don't feel there's a lot of chance either.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  61. #261
    highlander
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blainehamilton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    And if they "spring back to shape" they just reuse them? If the steel is so fragile, now weakened, how does that make sense?

    Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.

    Drama much? Lol.


    If the steel is in an 'elastic' state it should return to it's original shape and be completely reusable.

    Considering the amount of tortional buckling, the time it has been in the deformed state, and the wide temperature swings during that period, I would expect the beams are permanently damaged and will require replacements.


    Sometime in April I would expect an updated completion date for the 102 Ave bridge in mid to late 2017.
    If it's elastic deformation the time doesn't matter, and the temperature shouldn't matter either, at least within the normal range.

  62. #262
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    ...Reminder, avoid using 102 Avenue bridge until it collapses and is replaced again.
    Okay if you take the outside eastbound lane you'll probably be fine, it looks fairly straight so probably as strong as they'll ever need to be.

    As for the other lanes, if for some reason they spring back into position (I doubt that will happen the article did say 20% chance) those you might want to avoid (eastbound median lane, westbound median lane).

    The outermost westbound lane will be new steel that wasn't affected so you should be just fine there too.

    So if they don't replace the bent beams those could be weaker, my guess is they won't spring back into position and will be replaced with new steel and all lanes will be fine.

    Edmonton does quite a good job of bridge inspections unlike Laval QC we've never had one fail when it was operational. So regardless of what happens you're more at risk of somebody sideswiping you because they didn't shoulder check or an accident at an intersection because someone not paying attention.

    So in the end, don't worry about the strength of the bridge, you'll be fine.

  63. #263
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    818

    Default

    From some rumblings I have heard the underground theory is the foundation shifted inwards.

    EDIT: Which means this is no longer a steel problem but a much more significant issue.
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  64. #264

    Default

    Regardless, the contractor is not having a good time. Hope they have a good rainy day fund.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  65. #265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodmanza View Post
    From some rumblings I have heard the underground theory is the foundation shifted inwards.

    EDIT: Which means this is no longer a steel problem but a much more significant issue.
    I believe that to be extremely unlikely as a root cause. My underground theory is that it's Harper's fault ... or MacTavish's ...

  66. #266

    Default

    From some rumblings I have heard the underground theory is aliens.

    Oh wait, that was just a bad burrito...

    nvm...

  67. #267
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodmanza View Post
    From some rumblings I have heard the underground theory is the foundation shifted inwards.

    EDIT: Which means this is no longer a steel problem but a much more significant issue.
    I believe that to be extremely unlikely as a root cause. My underground theory is that it's Harper's fault ... or MacTavish's ...
    Good for you. I am merely posting what I have heard, it is not my theory, however I heard it from construction professionals within the industry.
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  68. #268
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    Not MacTavish's fault but Lowe's for hiring him

    Foundation shifting inwards seems unlikely those piles are pretty deep, would take a lot of force to move them that many feet. Not only that if it did move they would try to move all valuable equipment further from the site and move the fence back further to avoid future liabilities.

    But as for the other theory ... yup

    http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...29/9189283.jpg

  69. #269
    C2E Posting Power
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    818

    Default

    Thanks Sundance, that was more what I was looking for - someone to provide comment on the actual theory itself and why it is or is not plausible.
    YEG lifer. Phillips liver.

  70. #270
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I just thought of another reason, bridge beams need to expand and contract, so they need a few inches either side of leeway to do this. The beams are then placed on bearings or pads that allow them to do this. So for this to cause the beams to bow the foundations would have to move at least according to my rough calculations 11 cm (105 m long roughly, steel, using a 90C temperature differential (-40C to 50C).

    They would have noticed a 11 cm movement in the abutments before beams were even placed.

  71. #271

    Default

    OK, to be less flippant, since it would be tough for me to be any MORE flippant...

    The foundations were designed to handle loads of the completed bridge PLUS all the vehicle traffic. The addition of the girders alone would be nowhere near the design limits...

    Now, not saying that the foundation could never be the fault, but I put the chances of that being the cause at slightly less than aliens....
    Last edited by lat; 23-03-2015 at 10:25 AM.

  72. #272
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,135

    Default

    I couldn't resist the aliens reply though and yes the likelihood of the abutments shifting are so slight that it might as well be aliens. The following document does show the pilings going down pretty deep, you'd need a good chunk of the ravine to slide before the bridge would normally fall ...
    www.edmonton.ca/transportation/RoadsTraffic/102AveBridge_OHBoards_Mar2014.pdf#page=12

  73. #273
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    While it's possible the foundation shifted I would think if that was the case they would already know due to the amount it would have had to shift. I would also say the buckling looks very much like lateral torsional buckling which is what would happen if the beams weren't braced enough. The question then would be did the contractor use less bracing than on the first two beams or was there an engineering error in determining how much bracing was needed or did something else change?

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  74. #274

    Default

    From post #39. The pilings went down a looong way.


  75. #275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    OK, to be less flippant, since it would be tough for me to be any MORE flippant...

    The foundations were designed to handle loads of the completed bridge PLUS all the vehicle traffic. The addition of the girders alone would be nowhere near the design limits...

    Now, not saying that the foundation could never be the fault, but I put the chances of that being the cause at slightly less than aliens....
    I underlined "the completed bridge". Two of the cranes were used to add support during fabrication because they add considerable cantilever loads that are generated.

    The additional pulling loads from the buckling beams also create tension and the combined weight of 3 failed center beams that are reported to be 40 tons each and 30 tons for the 6 end beams amounts to 300 tons of load that put stress on the foundations. Foundations can shift or they can snap.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  76. #276

    Default

    That would be stresses on the foundation after failure, so would be damage caused by the buckling. There wouldn't be enough stress on the foundations before failure to cause the buckling in the first place.
    Last edited by lat; 23-03-2015 at 11:25 AM.

  77. #277

    Default

    I think the 95% consensus is that the most likely cause of the buckling is that they did not put in enough cross bracing during installations of the plate girders.

    Maybe they should have read the warning labels...

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  78. #278

    Default

    Well, hopefully it's more of a case of the metal springing forward and the bridge not falling back.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  79. #279

    Default

    ^ So are you blaming daylight savings time??? LOL
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  80. #280

    Default

    ^No, it's a play on words. Some one said they hope it's not the foundations and others are saying the bridge will not fall down. Hopefully the girders spring forward and the bridge does not fall back. When all else fails then we will blame D S T.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  81. #281
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,314

    Default

    If the girders are permanently bent, at least there's more iron ring material.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  82. #282

    Default

    Someone should start a poll (I don't know how to).

    A) will all of the girders spring back
    B) will some of the girders spring back
    C) will none of the girders spring back
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  83. #283
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Someone should start a poll (I don't know how to).

    A) will all of the girders spring back
    B) will some of the girders spring back
    C) will none of the girders spring back
    Looks like they're lifting now. I vote C.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  84. #284

    Default

    No they just got a guy in a basket right now the crane isnt even hooked up to the beams yet

  85. #285
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnoblade View Post
    No they just got a guy in a basket right now the crane isnt even hooked up to the beams yet
    I wasn't sure if they were using the smaller cranes to take the load off and the big one for removing beams or the other way around. It does look like they'll be using the big one for taking the load off based on the article I just saw that talks about taking the load of two of the girders at the same time.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  86. #286
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,957

    Default

    Looks like a popular place to be today, quite the set up of cranes.

    http://www.earthcam.net/projects/edm...idge/?cam=cam2

  87. #287

    Default

    That has to be the most people i have seen this whole time watching this cam LOL

  88. #288
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    If it was a live video feed I bet we'd be able to figure out who was handling the money for the bets on what's going to happen.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  89. #289

    Default

    Its hooked up now. Just gotta wait for the next cam update to see if it all comes crashing down on those 6 cranes. I wonder who will be paying for those if they get destroyed.

  90. #290
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    6,397

    Default

    I bet they spring back

  91. #291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Someone should start a poll (I don't know how to).

    A) will all of the girders spring back
    B) will some of the girders spring back
    C) will none of the girders spring back
    Looks like they're lifting now. I vote C.
    I will take C for $10000 Alex.

    Whoever came up with the idea that these will 'spring' back is likely the same guy who said don't bother bracing them during the install........

  92. #292
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,314

    Default

    My guess is answer B. Hopefully it's not catastrophic because lives are at risk.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  93. #293
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    6,397

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMorrocco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Someone should start a poll (I don't know how to).

    A) will all of the girders spring back
    B) will some of the girders spring back
    C) will none of the girders spring back
    Looks like they're lifting now. I vote C.
    I will take C for $10000 Alex.

    Whoever came up with the idea that these will 'spring' back is likely the same guy who said don't bother bracing them during the install........
    I asked a civil engineer friend of mine about this debacle when it happened, and he basically said that depending on the circumstances that lead to the bending, it's entirely possible that they'll spring back and the girders will not be significantly structurally compromised.

    Of course if that does happen, they will be stringently tested before anybody even considers thinking about reusing them.

  94. #294

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JJMorrocco View Post

    Whoever came up with the idea that these will 'spring' back is likely the same guy who said don't bother bracing them during the install........
    None of the above.

    I think that all three girders will at least partially spring back. It's yet to be seen how much. There's so much compression on those top flanges.

    Best case scenario is, all three girders are lifted and spring back, get fully braced and are again dropped into place. I can't imagine that will be the case. And how much damage has been done to the end girders and their respective supports?

    Hope I'm wrong.

  95. #295

    Default

    Most of the lifting has now been done. Anyone onsite / observing with an update ? safety will be an issue - cant the bolts snap off (lethal projectiles) if it springs back with force ?
    Last edited by blake; 24-03-2015 at 12:56 PM.

  96. #296

    Default

    So the webcam page seems to be stuck on 11:15 picture?? or is it just my connection??

  97. #297
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,957

    Default

    Mine is on 12:30, if you compare it to 24 hours earlier, it looks like the beams are actually springing back.
    Last edited by Hilman; 24-03-2015 at 12:55 PM.

  98. #298
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Westmount, Edmonton
    Posts
    5,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Mine is on 12:30, if you compare it to 24 hours earlier, it looks like the beams are actually springing back.
    Hard to tell given the change in lighting. Today is a greyer day meaning there's a lot of shadow in the image that wasn't there yesterday. The 1200 ton crane may be shading the area as well. Personally it doesn't look like it's move at all.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  99. #299

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Most of the lifting has now been done. Anyone onsite / observing with an update ? safety will be an issue - cant the bolts snap off (lethal projectiles) if it springs back with force ?
    Not sure it can be said most of the lifting has been done. Certainly some tension was relieved between 11:15 and 11:45 but I wouldn't guess most of it.

    I imagine that, now the three twisted girders are (at least partially) secured by the cranes, they'll have to carefully remove the damaged temporary braces before lifting the north one up further. My guess is that that's when any potential spring back will occur.

  100. #300
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,957

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Mine is on 12:30, if you compare it to 24 hours earlier, it looks like the beams are actually springing back.
    Hard to tell given the change in lighting. Today is a greyer day meaning there's a lot of shadow in the image that wasn't there yesterday. The 1200 ton crane may be shading the area as well. Personally it doesn't look like it's move at all.
    Agreed, might be wishful thinking lol.

    March 23 at 12:00


    March 24 at 13:15

    http://www.earthcam.net/projects/edm...idge/?cam=cam2

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •