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Thread: Media Difficulties with Geography

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    Default Media Difficulties with Geography

    Thread for providing geographical fact checking assistance to those in need.

    You know, like saying "Alberta Avenue" (or any number of other Northside neighbourhoods all the way up to the Yellowhead) is "Downtown", as we know is all too common.

    Or even like saying "Goldbar" is "North Edmonton" which I saw in relation to a murder case in a recent year, when I'm pretty sure they intended to (also erroneously) say "Northside", when Goldbar is neither in currently defunct North Edmonton, nor Northside Edmonton.

    Or in the case that broke the dam for me today:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/1230937/th...east-edmonton/

    As in "How are either Castledowns or 109 Street considered "East"? Other than of course the great value of erroneously reinforcing negative stereotypes.

    Not intended to berate, honestly, just in the hopes that someone, somewhere, will be more careful in the future. We can't know our world without consistent, accurate information, and this is happening too often from what should be reputable news sources. I acknowledge they're still more right than wrong, and it's not easy to be perfect. But in many cases the mistakes are self-reinforcing, and for that reason need addressing.
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    Well to be fair most people are unaware of the ACTUAL downtown boundaries. Most people I ask consider Oliver to be downtown so I'm not surprised the media constantly get it wrong. But it can be frustrating when the media prints false information and sometimes it does look like they are just trying to reinforce negative stereotypes. Especially when it has to do with the Quarters area. Media always call it downtown but it's not. I just wish the media was held more accountable sometimes.

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    When I first moved here in 1997, people (in the media, but also in ordinary conversation) would go out of their way to exclude things from downtown that probably really belonged there, and now they seem to be going out of their way to include things in it that don't. It's a really apparent shift to me.
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    "defunct" north Edmonton ? what's that supposed to mean ?

    Nobody cares about specified boundaries. People often refer to my house in Parkdale as "downtown" when they hear where it is located. It's not really, but close enough that some think it is

    People get uptight about the silliest things
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    Central Baptist Church on Connors Hill has a history of trying to portray itself as being downtown. Starting with the name.

    I also recall that their advertising in the 90s showed a drawing of a cross surrounded by skyscrapers, and their website still portrays a traffic light similarly ensconced. And I think at one time they even described themselves as being downtown, or at least strongly put out that impression.

    Even now...

    "Our church gathers for worship in two locations, one near the center of the city just south of the river (Connors Hill),"

    More like south of the river VALLEY, up a huge hill. And not near anything that anyone else considers to be "central". And culturally, about as far from downtown as you can get.

    http://www.centralbaptist.ab.ca/

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    "defunct" north Edmonton ? what's that supposed to mean ?

    Nobody cares about specified boundaries. People often refer to my house in Parkdale as "downtown" when they hear where it is located. It's not really, but close enough that some think it is

    People get uptight about the silliest things
    I would tend to agree we should be tolerant of flexible nomenclature. But, persuant to what I wrote above about the church, would you at least agree that it is, by any standard, misleading to suggest that something south of the river is downtown?

    I'm not trying to round up a posse against Central Baptist. I'm just curious about where people draw the line(literally and figuratively). Personally, I think it's perfectly okay to call Oliver downtown. Not sure why, I guess the area just "feels" like downtown, to me.

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    ^sure and for many as well, but why not actually call where events take place by their actual neighbourhood? Oliver is Oliver, Downtown is Downtown, Summerside is Summerside, Oxford is Oxford, AB Avenue is AB Avenue etc.
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    ^^ and that's a great point.. physcialy boundaries like the river valley have a much greater effect than an abitrary boundary that the city made up to delineate one area from the other. Especialy since a term like "downtown" is somewhat ambiguous.

    I don't feel like the Parkdale house is "downtown" but many others do. It's a bit of a catch-all term in a lot of ways. Like anyone who would argue that the Quarters neighborhood isn't in the "downtown" would be hard pressed to justify that stance beyond pointing out that it's on the other side of the street
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    I like using the word central because it means in the middle of and does not pertain to any specific boundary.

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    ^ There's still that ambiguity with that term too, though. How do you define "central" ? Where's the cut-off for that ?

    I bet you'd get a whole pile of different answers to that question as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^^ and that's a great point.. physcialy boundaries like the river valley have a much greater effect than an abitrary boundary that the city made up to delineate one area from the other. Especialy since a term like "downtown" is somewhat ambiguous.

    I don't feel like the Parkdale house is "downtown" but many others do. It's a bit of a catch-all term in a lot of ways. Like anyone who would argue that the Quarters neighborhood isn't in the "downtown" would be hard pressed to justify that stance beyond pointing out that it's on the other side of the street
    One thing that's interesting is that a lot of things that are named after one area are actually in another.

    Capilano Mall is actually in Ottewell. And I'm pretty sure that Idylwylde Library is in Bonnie Doon.

    Though I am a native of Ottewell, I am not actually sure where Braemar begins and ends. I've suspected, though, that Braemar school and Braemar Baptist church are not both in Braemar, since they are at pretty disparate points from one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Though I am a native of Ottewell, I am not actually sure where Braemar begins and ends. I've suspected, though, that Braemar school and Braemar Baptist church are not both in Braemar, since they are at pretty disparate points from one another.
    I don't think Braemar is an actual location/neighbourhood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ There's still that ambiguity with that term too, though. How do you define "central" ? Where's the cut-off for that ?

    I bet you'd get a whole pile of different answers to that question as well
    A critierion I've considered is...

    How much foot traffic is there between one area and another adjoing area?

    Going by that standard, I suspect you could consider at least part of Oliver to be Central, because you've probably got quite a few people crossing the street westward at 109th and Jasper all the time. Same with the Quarters, probably, maybe not so much with points further north.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^^ and that's a great point.. physcialy boundaries like the river valley have a much greater effect than an abitrary boundary that the city made up to delineate one area from the other. Especialy since a term like "downtown" is somewhat ambiguous.

    I don't feel like the Parkdale house is "downtown" but many others do. It's a bit of a catch-all term in a lot of ways. Like anyone who would argue that the Quarters neighborhood isn't in the "downtown" would be hard pressed to justify that stance beyond pointing out that it's on the other side of the street
    One thing that's interesting is that a lot of things that are named after one area are actually in another.

    Capilano Mall is actually in Ottewell. And I'm pretty sure that Idylwylde Library is in Bonnie Doon.

    Though I am a native of Ottewell, I am not actually sure where Braemar begins and ends. I've suspected, though, that Braemar school and Braemar Baptist church are not both in Braemar, since they are at pretty disparate points from one another.
    Yes.. The Cromdale hotel was actually in Parkdale. The Parkdale Plaza shopping centre is actually in Eastwood. Highlands Centre is actually in Boyle Street. Etc. Etc. Not that it really matters all that much.. but discrepancies like that exist in a lot of places it seems
    Last edited by 240GLT; 26-03-2014 at 10:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ There's still that ambiguity with that term too, though. How do you define "central" ? Where's the cut-off for that ?

    I bet you'd get a whole pile of different answers to that question as well
    A critierion I've considered is...

    How much foot traffic is there between one area and another adjoing area?

    Going by that standard, I suspect you could consider at least part of Oliver to be Central, because you've probably got quite a few people crossing the street westward at 109th and Jasper all the time. Same with the Quarters, probably, maybe not so much with points further north.
    See, exactly. And I'd consider my Goldbar house to be "central" given the short drive to the centre of the city. I'd consider my Parkdale house "inner city" (not in the stereotypical derogatory sense) gien it's location basically very, very close to the centre of the city
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Though I am a native of Ottewell, I am not actually sure where Braemar begins and ends. I've suspected, though, that Braemar school and Braemar Baptist church are not both in Braemar, since they are at pretty disparate points from one another.
    I don't think Braemar is an actual location/neighbourhood.
    Well, Braemar is the name of a place in Scotland, so I assumed that the name was a reference to that. Which would make it seem likely that it's intended as a place name.

    The only other thing I can think of is that the school and the church are both named after someone named Braemar, but that doesn't seem to have much currency as a surname.
    Last edited by overoceans; 26-03-2014 at 10:23 AM.

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    Downtown the neighbourhood and downtown the idea are different things. My office is on Jasper and 112 street, technically in Oliver, but I don't see any issue telling people I work downtown. The bounds of what people think of as downtown are probably best defined by how far out from the CBD the commercial areas stretch out.

    Beyond that are what are considered to be the inner city neighbourhoods: Boyle Street, Central McDougall, McCauley, Oliver, Queen Mary Park, Riverdale, Rossdale, Cloverdale, Garneau, and Strathcona. Some of these, like Oliver contain areas that people think of us part of downtown.

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    ^ I think you're still missing a few.

    And once again that's simply based on a simple opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ I think you're still missing a few.

    And once again that's simply based on a simple opinion.
    Definitely. I was aiming for indisputable inner city neighbourhoods but I usually think of my neighbourhood, Westmount, as inner city as well. I figure if I can easily walk to work downtown I must be in the inner city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ I think you're still missing a few.

    And once again that's simply based on a simple opinion.
    And, for my money, I wouldn't call Garneau or Strathcona "inner city", in either the geographical or the cultural sense of the word(and I realize that there are subcategories to the "cultural sense" category).

    And, again speaking as a native of the southeast, I'd have a lot of trouble conceptualizing Gold Bar as central. To me, the river is an insurmountable psychological barrier.

    Now, having said that, growing up in Ottewell I was pretty conscious of being in close proximity to downtown, by car or bus. Certainly when you compare it to places like Millwoods or Riverbend. Heck, I walked between the two areas dozens of times. Still wouldn't call Ottewell central, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Definitely. I was aiming for indisputable inner city neighbourhoods but I usually think of my neighbourhood, Westmount, as inner city as well. I figure if I can easily walk to work downtown I must be in the inner city.
    Really? That's a bit of a walk from westmount to downtown. 40-50 mins. Bonnie doon would be the same walking distance, as would forest heights, garneau, blatchford

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Definitely. I was aiming for indisputable inner city neighbourhoods but I usually think of my neighbourhood, Westmount, as inner city as well. I figure if I can easily walk to work downtown I must be in the inner city.
    Really? That's a bit of a walk from westmount to downtown. 40-50 mins. Bonnie doon would be the same walking distance, as would forest heights, garneau, blatchford
    Personal perspective, anything under an hour is an easy walk.

    And yes, I don't see any problem with calling any of those inner city or central neighbourhoods.

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    For the purposes of many rental listings, Garneau seems to be considered "Central" but I'm not sure I've ever seen it referenced as "downtown".

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    "defunct" north Edmonton ? what's that supposed to mean ?
    Why not read what it's linked to?

    And is the context of Goldbar not making a point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ I think you're still missing a few.

    And once again that's simply based on a simple opinion.
    Actually simple matters of fact are not simple matters of opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    "defunct" north Edmonton ? what's that supposed to mean ?
    Why not read what it's linked to?

    And is the context of Goldbar not making a point?
    Well obviously the Goldbar context makes no sense. I quite suprised that anything notable actually happened in Goldbar in the past few years

    North Edmonton may have been a township 100 years ago but it's also commonly referenced as the north area of the city currently. I don't know what point bringing a 100 year old designation into a conversation makes, given the current frequent references to "north Edmonton"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    ^ I think you're still missing a few.

    And once again that's simply based on a simple opinion.
    Actually simple matters of fact are not simple matters of opinion.

    Except when one's opinions are misconstrued as fact.

    Which obviously P.T. indicated was not the case, that his statement was an opinion.
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    ^ All I'm suggesting is that Downtown has a defined edge, the North Side has a defined edge, Edmonton itself has a defined edge. They're not matters of opinion. They are matters of fact. Different.

    The term "central" is definitely more open to interpretation, if you like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ All I'm suggesting is that Downtown has a defined edge, the North Side has a defined edge, Edmonton itself has a defined edge. They're not matters of opinion. They are matters of fact. Different.

    The term "central" is definitely more open to interpretation, if you like.
    The neighbourhood called "Downtown" has a defined edge. What residents consider to be downtown extends past that neighbourhood. I don't tell people I work in Oliver just because my office building is two blocks outside the formal Downtown neighbourhood. I tell people I work downtown.

    Consider it the difference between Downtown and downtown.

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    I don't think the North Side has a defined edge either. My north downtown apartment was in Central MacDougall, not North Side.

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    I thought it was fairly well established in Edmonton the North Side and South Side are relative to the river. Which is to say they are not neighbourhoods, but geographic references.

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    ^ The river runs diagonally though, so a three sector division (North, South and West) makes more sense to me. I would put the division between North and West at Groat Road / St. Albert trail.

    As for actual neighborhoods, we have too many of them. This makes it difficult to remember where they all are and reduces their utility as descriptions of place. Instead, terms referencing larger areas (such as Millwoods, Castledowns and downtown in the expanded sense) have become popular. If our neighborhoods were all at least 2.5 km^2 their names and locations would be much more widely known.

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    Which is to some extent how people do it, although people usually just speak of the Southside and the West End. Very rarely do I ever here someone refer to the Northside.

    The City of Edmonton divides the city up into seven creatively named sectors for planning: Mature Area, North, Northwest, Northwest, Southeast, Southwest, and West. Of course normal human residents don't use those at all.

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    When I first moved to Edmonton, I'd refer to my neighborhood as north downtown mostly because (a) although there were no downtown-y type buildings around me, (b) I could see the downtown and could get there by crossing the "tracks". It was only later I learned I lived in Central MacDougall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^ The river runs diagonally though, so a three sector division (North, South and West) makes more sense to me. I would put the division between North and West at Groat Road / St. Albert trail.

    I could deal with that, there is a pinch in the residential at Groat, but when (I think it was CTV) was reporting "murder in North Edmonton", I looked at the address and it was in Goldbar. That's my issue.

    As for "greater downtown", downtown itself has virtually nothing in common with Central McDougall or McCauley or The Quarters (or even lower Rossdale in a totally different way). Lumping them together is just giving people the wrong impression of what Downtown really is, and leading to all kinds of stereotypes which are definitely unjustified.
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    There is only 1 Beverly thats for sure :P

    Northside is anything north of the river and east of 127 st imo.
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    ^ Agreed.
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    "Churchill Square paving stones costing Edmonton taxpayers $50K per year"

    Yeah, except they aren't. Try "City Hall Terrace".

    Why is it important? It's reinforcing the "money pit notion" of Churchill Square that began with...

    ....The city spent $13 million in 2004 making significant changes to Churchill Square.
    ^ from the article.

    http://metronews.ca/news/edmonton/98...-50k-per-year/

    "oh but it's right next to Churchill Square and we know Churchill Square was costly so why are you getting so uptight about such a silly thing!"

    ^ because it isn't correct, no matter how "convenient."
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    Media Difficulties with Geography

    You would think that one of the first rules of news casting would be to make sure you know the location/area you are reporting from or reporting about.
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    Default CBC - 118 Avenue equals downtown WRONG, CBC, WRONG.

    Downtown tagging rampage ends in 160 charges
    Taggers ink buildings, light standards, vehicle in one day rampage
    CBC News Posted: Apr 14, 2014 4:42 PM MT Last Updated: Apr 14, 2014 4:42 PM MT

    Police arrested the pair after responding to a call in the 118th Avenue area at about 6:30 a.m., April 5th, that two men were spray painting numerous buildings throughout the area.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rges-1.2610127
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    118 Ave = downtown? lol

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    That article seems to have been corrected, since the word "downtown" has apparently been erased, and the location on 118 Ave made more specific.
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    ^ Indeed. An improvement, CBC, an improvement.

    Hopefully they can get it right the first time, next time.
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    Excellent.. I hate to see Alberta Aves' good name sullied by associating it with downtown
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    Quick question on geography and placement:

    Do people say Edmonton is in northern or southern Alberta?
    Last edited by KC; 15-04-2014 at 04:27 PM. Reason: I first asked "Would you say Edmonton..."

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    I think Edmonton should always be referred to as in Central Alberta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    I think Edmonton should always be referred to as in Central Alberta
    It would also be nice to remind viewers that Edmonton is the Capital City of Alberta. Not to be confused with Calgary.
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    Agreed but the city itself is located in central Alberta. Not northern Alberta or southern Alberta...

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    I sort of see Edmonton as just Edmonton.

    Perhaps a cynical part of growing up with Lougheed and Klein, but I don't feel strongly connected to "Alberta".
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Thumbs up Credit where it's due.

    Quick question, Edmonton media: Where is 107 Avenue and 109 Street?


    iNews880:

    "near downtown Edmonton"

    Acceptable!


    Global:

    "central Edmonton"

    Acceptable!


    CBC:

    "just north of downtown"

    Weasely word "just" has my smarmy-detector senses tingling, but strictly speaking at least they have grudgingly admitted it's not downtown like they tried to say 118th Ave was last time. Improved, but still room for improvement, IMO.

    Still to be fair, none of the media identified whether the scene was in Central McDougall or Queen Mary Park, so I suppose they all have room for improvement.
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    I can't see any problem with "just North of downtown", because that's pretty much a perfect description of the location.

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    Two full blocks, or 350 metres from the remotest corner of Downtown and equally the remotest corner of Oliver, and equally 750 metres from Spruce Avenue or Prince Rupert.

    Hmmn.

    Arguable?

    But as I said, "room for improvement IMO."
    Last edited by JayBee; 27-05-2014 at 03:32 PM.
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    Wow.. talk about splitting hairs
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    350 metre hairs?
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    you could throw a tennis ball from the location of the incident and hit the imaginary line into "downtown"

    For pretty much everyone, 109ave and 107st is downtown. Or at the very least in the downtown area.
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    FFS, why is this so difficult?

    Longest Throw

    Glen Gorbous (Canada) threw a baseball 445 ft. 10 inches on August 1, 1957.
    Facts are facts.

    Period.

    The only reason your "pretty much everyone" (whomever that may be, but certainly not the people I meet) can't distinguish the truth is likely ill-reporting in the media!

    Therefore, the point, ya think?



    There is great value in society knowing what the **** they're talking about.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    ^ I said tennis ball, not baseball.

    I'm amused that some folks make such a big deal about somethig so trivial

    Yes, the reason that the ill informed masses think that 107st and 109 ave is in the downtown area is because of the media

    Now who doesn't have a clue ??
    Parkdale

  58. #58

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    ^ Well then stop doing it.

    Expecting fact checking from media sources is a pretty basic expectation, actually.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Unless you have a community league or neighborhood map of Edmonton I'm not sure if most people know , or care where downtown starts or Oliver begins. A few blocks isn't a huge error or problem. However some things they should know are the big picture areas Castledowns N, Clareview NE, Millwoods SE and so forth, I'm not sure if referring to The Meadows as Millwoods is a huge crime either.

    FYI, you can find the maps here;
    http://www.efcl.org/Resources/LeagueDistrictMap/tabid/394/Default.aspx

    My biggest complaint is the traffic reports not specifying the side of Anthony Henday or the wrong lanes when there is an accident.
    Last edited by sundance; 27-05-2014 at 03:47 PM.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ Well then stop doing it.

    Expecting fact checking from media sources is a pretty basic expectation, actually.
    Good lord.. what planet are you living on ?

    This argument in indeed petty and trivial, but I think a lot of us gave up on accuracy in media a long time ago
    Parkdale

  61. #61

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    ^ The planet "just" West of Venus, apparently.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Heh.. I was going to make a Uranus joke but I think we'll leave it at that
    Parkdale

  63. #63

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    Thank the heavens.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Unless you have a community league or neighborhood map of Edmonton I'm not sure if most people know , or care where downtown starts or Oliver begins. A few blocks isn't a huge error or problem. However some things they should know are the big picture areas Castledowns N, Clareview NE, Millwoods SE and so forth, I'm not sure if referring to The Meadows as Millwoods is a huge crime either.
    This. Edmonton has too many official neighborhoods for most people to bother remembering them, but most people do remember the larger scale "meta-neighborhoods" sundance mentioned. The trouble is that the "meta-neighborhoods" are not well defined in central parts of the city - for example, what do you call the (reasonably homogeneous) area north of the LRT, south of Yellowhead and east of 101 St / Kingsway Av / the old airport?

  65. #65

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    ^ I actually do get that. Even one step beyond, I wouldn't mind we refer to the "inner-city" as one thing (refering to everything from 105 Ave to the Yellowhead). But how much does that area have to do with Downtown? How many office towers are there? How many highrises at all? How many structured parkades? How many cultural institutions? How many university buildings? How many LRT stops?

    Not similar amounts because they are not similar areas.

    And importantly in the context, are the crime rates even close to similar per capita?

    No.

    The character of the inner-city has fundamentally little in common with Downtown, yet when I talk about moving into a condo downtown, some of my co-workers are all worked-up and frothy about how dangerous it is because there was some "crime rampage" downtown just this month or whatever. Try telling some deluded CBC watcher that no, actually, the identity of the neighbourhood is defined better by a shop that sells exotic specialty vinegars, and their "educated" response is incoherent muttering about stab-proof vests.

    Is there really no difference between Downtown and Central McDougall or Queen Mary Park?

    Regardless anybody's response, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the media "just" being factually accurate.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  66. #66

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    ^ Appologies in particular to Ti48, as I started responding to him but then got sidetracked.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ I actually do get that. Even one step beyond, I wouldn't mind we refer to the "inner-city" as one thing (refering to everything from 105 Ave to the Yellowhead). But how much does that area have to do with Downtown? How many office towers are there? How many highrises at all? How many structured parkades? How many cultural institutions? How many university buildings? How many LRT stops?

    Not similar amounts because they are not similar areas.

    And importantly in the context, are the crime rates even close to similar per capita?

    No.

    The character of the inner-city has fundamentally little in common with Downtown, yet when I talk about moving into a condo downtown, some of my co-workers are all worked-up and frothy about how dangerous it is because there was some "crime rampage" downtown just this month or whatever. Try telling some deluded CBC watcher that no, actually, the identity of the neighbourhood is defined better by a shop that sells exotic specialty vinegars, and their "educated" response is incoherent muttering about stab-proof vests.

    Is there really no difference between Downtown and Central McDougall or Queen Mary Park?

    Regardless anybody's response, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the media "just" being factually accurate.
    I don't know if you're being obtuse, lazy or both

    Downtown is part of the fabric of the inner city.... (understanding that I am using the term not in the derogatory sense, but in the geographic one) becuase downtown is an integral part of the inner city

    Downtown as a neighborhood shares many commonalities with it's surrounding neighborhoods.. including crime rates, demographics, sociao-economic condition. Are those factors exactly the same ? No.. but very very similar. That's just a fact.

    The recoil you get from people when you say you live in downtown is the same recoil that I received, that many receive when they make the choice to live in other inner city neighborhoods.

    If you don't think that various institutions that exist in the downtown neighborhood don't exist elsewhere in the inner city, you really really need to get out more.

    If you think that a vinegar shop defines the entire downtown you are delusional. That's the exact same thing as saying that prostitution defines 118th avenue.

    Quit being such an uppity snob.
    Parkdale

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quick question on geography and placement:

    Do people say Edmonton is in northern or southern Alberta?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    I think Edmonton should always be referred to as in Central Alberta
    "Go central young man".

    So what towns or cities furthest north and south of Edmonton are still in central Alberta?

    (Still, in talking only northern and southern Alberta, Edmonton is in southern Alberta.)

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    ^ The line equidistant from Montana and the NWT is ~100 km north of Edmonton, but if you asked the average Albertan to divide the province into northern and southern portions I suspect most would draw the line somewhere between Red Deer and Edmonton.



    As for the "inner city", I don't think that term is particularly helpful as a geographic reference either, as it also suffers from being poorly defined. How far from the core does the "inner city" extend?
    To 111 Av? To 118 Av? To Yellowhead?
    To the river? To Whyte Av? To 61 Av / 63 Av / Argyle Rd? To Whitemud?
    To 124 St? To Groat Rd? To 142 St?
    To 80 St? To 75 St / Gretzky drive? To 50 St?

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ I actually do get that. Even one step beyond, I wouldn't mind we refer to the "inner-city" as one thing (refering to everything from 105 Ave to the Yellowhead). But how much does that area have to do with Downtown? How many office towers are there? How many highrises at all? How many structured parkades? How many cultural institutions? How many university buildings? How many LRT stops?

    Not similar amounts because they are not similar areas.

    And importantly in the context, are the crime rates even close to similar per capita?

    No.

    The character of the inner-city has fundamentally little in common with Downtown, yet when I talk about moving into a condo downtown, some of my co-workers are all worked-up and frothy about how dangerous it is because there was some "crime rampage" downtown just this month or whatever. Try telling some deluded CBC watcher that no, actually, the identity of the neighbourhood is defined better by a shop that sells exotic specialty vinegars, and their "educated" response is incoherent muttering about stab-proof vests.

    Is there really no difference between Downtown and Central McDougall or Queen Mary Park?

    Regardless anybody's response, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the media "just" being factually accurate.
    I don't know if you're being obtuse, lazy or both

    Downtown is part of the fabric of the inner city.... (understanding that I am using the term not in the derogatory sense, but in the geographic one) becuase downtown is an integral part of the inner city

    Downtown as a neighborhood shares many commonalities with it's surrounding neighborhoods.. including crime rates, demographics, sociao-economic condition. Are those factors exactly the same ? No.. but very very similar. That's just a fact.

    The recoil you get from people when you say you live in downtown is the same recoil that I received, that many receive when they make the choice to live in other inner city neighborhoods.

    If you don't think that various institutions that exist in the downtown neighborhood don't exist elsewhere in the inner city, you really really need to get out more.

    If you think that a vinegar shop defines the entire downtown you are delusional. That's the exact same thing as saying that prostitution defines 118th avenue.

    Quit being such an uppity snob.
    Even here in your own message you're (somewhat awkwardly) referring to them as different places.

    Well done. That is all we're looking for.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    :shrug: I made very clear points... you read into that what you want. But I think you've got your head up Uranus
    Parkdale

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    ......and searching for clingons.



    Sorry, Top_Dawg had to finish the verse.

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ...
    And importantly in the context, are the crime rates even close to similar per capita?

    No.

    ...
    Regardless anybody's response, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the media "just" being factually accurate.
    Downtown as a neighborhood shares many commonalities with it's surrounding neighborhoods.. including crime rates,
    Okay, a titch of reality here, I did some digging and found that the violent crime rate per capita in McCauley and Central McDougall is in fact roughly triple downtown's, based strictly on residential population.

    Then if you include the total number of people visiting said areas daily (such as bar patrons, students and office workers) arguably downtown falls to less than one twelf the violent crime rate. Again, that's including the 10,000 odd patrons of the evenings downtown now gets.

    Take your pick, but the neighbourhoods on opposite sides of 105 Avenue are not similar in the least.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  74. #74
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    Okay.. and comparing the downtown neighborhood to the greater Norwood area which has a very similar population, The greater Norwood area has about half the overall crime rate and one third the violent crime rate per capita as the downtown does.

    But that's splitting hairs. Obviously some inner city areas are going to have greater challenges than others. Downtown has it's own set of challenges. You can't cross a street though and magically end up in a completely different style neighborhood... you certainly can't on 105st.... you'd have an equal chance of getting mugged or robbed on the south side of the street as the north side
    Parkdale

  75. #75

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    The larger issue here is perception vs reality....We rage at everything be labeled in regards to DT because it continues to feed the idea that DT is "unsafe"

    We know DT isn't unsafe and we are right to push the perception that the media knowingly or unknowing pushes. Again look at the Audience of on air news views. Global knows EXACTLY who their key demographic will be and will tailor their scripts and stories to appeal to those viewers. your older gen x or baby boomer raised ona died of suburb = good and inner city = bad isn't gonna change and that is who is consuming this product.

    I think people well get less upset if they consume their news over a variety of sources because if there are just as many bloggers and other alternative sources of news and opinions that round out that of CTV or Global. Create balance yourself by reading Mac's weekly notes and links, Dave Alberta's political thoughts. Picking up a vue. Reading Spacing Edmonton, Picking up a community news letter. there was a study done on crime reporting... We see so much of it now because if creates revenue and its cheap to report on. it's the mcdonalds of news.

    109st and 107 ave is Cental Edmonton. If I lived on that corner I would likely say I live downtown.
    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 28-05-2014 at 12:58 PM.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  76. #76

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    ^^Then if all these neighbourhoods are so unique, why not demand the media identify them by their unique names?

    Are we there yet?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    ^ Again, I think they share more commonalities than differences.

    I really could care less about whether the media uses the strict neighborhood boundaries in reporting. Especially in an area like downtown, which doesn't have a unique name, and which name is commonly used to refer to a general area rather than a specific boundary.

    It's funny on this board.. I've seen people like greenSPACE lovingly refer to the Italian Centre as "downtown".. fantastic as long as it's positive news. But someone gets mugged and all of a sudden "IT'S NOT DOWNTOWN!!"

    The double standard is what irritates me more than anything
    Parkdale

  78. #78

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    ^ It's really irrelevant.

    Crime and public safety is a city and should be communicated from that perspective.

    What needs to be hit home is just because you live in amblside doesn't mean a murder in central Edmonton doesn't effect you.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    ^ very good point.

    We get very hung up on these rather arbitrary boundaries.. Especially on this site, that I think we lose focus on the bigger picture
    Parkdale

  80. #80

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    ^^^ Right there with you on that last part.

    McCauley has the Italian Centre, Commonwealth Recreation Centre (which you saw me extoll in another thread) Zocalo, Lucky 97, Chinatown, FC Edmonton, Santa Maria Goretti Community Centre and lots of other nice things.

    Not trying to steal those things. No idea what greenSPACE is thinking...

    But you're simply wrong about the first part: Downtown does indeed have a perfectly defined border.

    Downtown Edmonton is bounded by 109 Street to the west, 105 Avenue to the north, 97 Street to the east, 97 Avenue, 100 Avenue, and Rossdale Road to the south and Jasper Avenue to the southeast
    It is its own unique neighbourhood, and that neighbourhood has no other name.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  81. #81

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    ^ If you ask 100 people what Downtown is... you will get 100 different answers.

    Now if ya want we can set up an official bureau of names and locations and demand that all news be filtered through a govt agency for "fact checking"

    but that in itself is WAY more troubling than the corner of 107 Ave and 109 st being referred to as some part of DT.

    Mainstream media is a commodity. In a capitalist society you have power and that power comes from what you choose t consume and choose not to. If you don't like what is being presented as a product. Don't buy it.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  82. #82

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    You are logically one step from saying we needn't have street and avenue numbers.

    I will finish these comments later this evening.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  83. #83

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    ^ that's absurd...

    I don't know how you draw that conculsion
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    Had to laugh. The thread title being 'Media Difficulties with Geography', reading though this thread the difficulties appear to be pretty widespread here, too.

    The quote in JayBee's post, #80, defining downtown's boundaries works for me. Maybe someone could put up a poll (if it's really that important) to see how many yeas and nays there'd be on that. Pedants welcome.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  85. #85

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    What is downtown can be just as much an emotional response as it could be a line on a map reply.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  86. #86

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    My hairdresser is on 124th Street, and they call that location their "downtown" location. I wish they were downtown!
    Its so beautiful. What sort of bird is that?

  87. #87

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    "Downtown" is used as a general term by virtually everyone, and 109st and 107ave falls in the general area of downtown.

    How often do people say "south side"? Where is that? Silverberry? Windermere? Whyte Ave? Does "north side" include downtown, since anything north of the river is technically the north side?

    This is a stupid conversation and we should all leave it, go for a beer, and concern ourselves with more important things, which would be anything compared to this.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by chmilz View Post
    this is a stupid conversation and we should all leave it, go for a beer, and concern ourselves with more important things, which would be anything compared to this.
    qft
    You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea. - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  89. #89

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    ^ where would that quote be filed....

    Would it be DT, Just North of DT, In central Edmonton or Just South of Southerly DT Edmonton?
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    This is a stupid conversation and we should all leave it, go for a beer, and concern ourselves with more important things, which would be anything compared to this.
    Obviously you think this is all beneath you, as you seem to be participating...



    But let's see, is a conversation where a bunch of people are arguing against a simple defined fact "stupid"?

    Absolutely.

    As stupid as people saying:

    "2+2" is used as a general term by virtually everyone
    and claiming it could refer to 579.3.

    Which it doesn't.

    You're arguing against a simple fact. It doesn't work. This conversation is practically the definition of stupid, but I'm glad you said it and I didn't have to.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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