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Thread: Private Universities Allowed to drop college from names

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    Default Private Universities Allowed to drop college from names


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    Curious if all the private universities in Alberta are religiously based?

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    Kings - Dutch Reform
    Canadian - Seventh Day Adventist
    St Mary's - Catholic (Open Enrolment)
    Ambrose - Nazerene
    Concordia - Formerly Lutheran (Less and Less every year) (Open Enrolment)

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    So yes.

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    Bad idea. Faith schools and public universities do not mix under any circumstances. These place should be denied all public funding. Let the faithful support their own faith.

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    Amen to that. If your creator is all powerful, surely funding his own operations should be trivial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Bad idea. Faith schools and public universities do not mix under any circumstances. These place should be denied all public funding. Let the faithful support their own faith.
    I'm sure the 'faithful' pay taxes too.

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    Even more so, they shouldn't be receiving funding increases when everyone else is getting cut:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/217378835/...ing-comparison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tox View Post
    Kings - Dutch Reform
    Canadian - Seventh Day Adventist
    St Mary's - Catholic (Open Enrolment)
    Ambrose - Nazerene
    Concordia - Formerly Lutheran (Less and Less every year) (Open Enrolment)
    Actually Kings was started by the Christian Reformed Church not Dutch reform(?) whatever that is. I know that Kings and Ambrose particularly are not closed to students of those denominations only. They also welcome and have many students from many other denominations and faiths such as Muslim and Atheist student.

    I also did not see anywhere in the story that granting these institutions full university status gave them public funding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tox View Post
    Kings - Dutch Reform
    Canadian - Seventh Day Adventist
    St Mary's - Catholic (Open Enrolment)
    Ambrose - Nazerene
    Concordia - Formerly Lutheran (Less and Less every year) (Open Enrolment)
    Actually Kings was started by the Christian Reformed Church not Dutch reform(?) whatever that is. I know that Kings and Ambrose particularly are not closed to students of those denominations only. They also welcome and have many students from many other denominations and faiths such as Muslim and Atheist student.

    I also did not see anywhere in the story that granting these institutions full university status gave them public funding?
    I believe the only change is in their names. They already received public funding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exiledincgy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tox View Post
    Kings - Dutch Reform
    Canadian - Seventh Day Adventist
    St Mary's - Catholic (Open Enrolment)
    Ambrose - Nazerene
    Concordia - Formerly Lutheran (Less and Less every year) (Open Enrolment)
    Actually Kings was started by the Christian Reformed Church not Dutch reform(?) whatever that is. I know that Kings and Ambrose particularly are not closed to students of those denominations only. They also welcome and have many students from many other denominations and faiths such as Muslim and Atheist student.

    I also did not see anywhere in the story that granting these institutions full university status gave them public funding?
    I believe the only change is in their names. They already received public funding.
    They receive partial public funding, about 60%/per student of what a fully public institution receives.

    Also my apologies on the "Kings - Dutch Reformed." Christian reformed is indeed correct.
    Last edited by Tox; 03-07-2014 at 06:00 PM. Reason: Removed extra word.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Bad idea. Faith schools and public universities do not mix under any circumstances. These place should be denied all public funding. Let the faithful support their own faith.
    I agree. I'd also like to see a stop of public funding to Edmonton Catholic Schools.

  13. #13

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    We need to change the Constitution & stop giving Catholics preferential treatment.

    It's discriminatory to other faiths/belief systems & it's a ridiculous waste of money thanks to needless duplication of administrative functions.

    And that's not even touching on the use of public funds to indoctrinate people into superstitious dogma & supernaturalism.
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  14. #14

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    It's not just a Catholic problem. The Protestant, Moslem, Jewish, and other organizations also wade into politics regularly, hiding behind the so-called freedom of religion.

    If I had my way, whenever any registered cleric or religious leader, of whatever denomination made a political statement, the entire organization he or she represents would be stripped of their tax-free status for ten years.

    I am quite anti-atheist, by the way. But if we accept personal freedom of conscience, we must as a corollary accept a total freedom FROM organized religion in the spheres of governance and public funding.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 04-07-2014 at 11:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    ...
    If I had my way, whenever any registered cleric or religious leader, of whatever denomination made a political statement, the entire organization he or she represents would be stripped of their tax-free status for ten years.
    Why would you want to strip a citizen of their right to comment on politics just because they happen to be in a leadership position in a religious organization? Would the same apply to anyone involved with a charity as well?

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    It's a little ridiculous that the advancement of religion is considered a charitable act under common law in the first place. A church should have to rely on the other 3 "heads" of charity to maintain their tax-free status & have their compliance monitored the same as any other charitable organization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    ...
    If I had my way, whenever any registered cleric or religious leader, of whatever denomination made a political statement, the entire organization he or she represents would be stripped of their tax-free status for ten years.
    Why would you want to strip a citizen of their right to comment on politics just because they happen to be in a leadership position in a religious organization? Would the same apply to anyone involved with a charity as well?
    Yes. Political organizations are regulated as political parties, and charities and churches that wade into politics must be treated as political organizations.

    As regards individuals, Ms. Anne X. can say whatever she wishes, but Rev. Anne X. represents her, let us say, church. If she is publicly identified as Rev. X., making a political statement, then she has dragged her church into it. If she did not consent to be identified as Rev. X., then her church can sue for the penalties.

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    What about corporations? Should CEOs and corporate executives also be banned from public political statements?

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  19. #19

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    ^ Of course not - corporations and CEOs have to pay taxes to government as well.

  20. #20

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    No taxation without representation, no representation without taxation.

    You wanna engage in political speech make sure you're paying for the politics. Gotta pay to have a say.
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    People employed by charitable organizations and churches still pay income tax, sales tax, etc.

    I'm having trouble finding any justification for a limit on anybody's free speech just because they happen to be tax exempt. And frankly I would say political rights should stem from citizenship, not taxation.

    As educational institutions, I'm not adverse to the model where independent institutions can exist, receiving some per student funding, although I think I would prefer a purely public system.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  22. #22

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    You're pulling away from the main issue by conflating the issue with actual charities & the churches.

    As soon as they get on the pulpit, politics must be dropped entirely as a subject matter. It's to maintain the separation between church & state. It's a basic tenet of our democracy. The government stays out of the church's business & the church reciprocates.
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    As soon as they get on the pulpit, politics must be dropped entirely as a subject matter. It's to maintain the separation between church & state.
    That's right.

    It's kind of the deal - churches don't have to pay taxes, and all that is asked in return is that they refrain from meddling in politics.

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    If we were only discussing religion that would be fine but AShetsen explicitly included charities on the basis that they are tax exempt. That does not seem to me to be a reasonable basis to restrict speech although it is a reasonable basis to restrict lobbying, which it does. A blanket restriction preventing all priests or employees of charities from saying anything at all political in public, as AShetsen proposed, is definitely unreasonable.

    As for separation of church and state, it does not exist in Canada. We do have constitutional guarantees of religious freedom but beyond that there is no legal separation of church and state. In fact our head of state is also the head of the Church of England.

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    BTW, I'm not in support of the tax exempt status of churches in Canada, I would like to see it removed across the board. What AShetsen is proposing is not only a violation of speech rights but would also serve to enshrine the tax exempt status in a way that could make it more difficult to remove.

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  26. #26

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    I'm not on board with his ideas either.

    I'm all in favour of getting rid of the mention of God in the Preamble to the Charter, the Catholic protectionism in the Constitution itself, the dismantling of the separate school systems & the removal of spreading religion as a valid charitable function while ensconcing the separation of church & state as a function of the guarantees of religious freedom.
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  27. #27

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    Too many of you invoke freedom of speech when the issue is something else altogether.

    All I have said is that a cleric making use of his position, formally at the pulpit, or informally, as in "I'm bishop of X, I'm important, and I speak as a servant of God when I say the following..." is meddling in politics, and makes his religious group into a political organization, which should then be dealt with as one.

    Someone asked whether charitable groups are like churches in this respect. Of course! The political arena is well-regulated for a reason. When any organization chooses to meddle in it, it becomes a political party.

    And that is not a matter of "freedom of speech".

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    No taxation without representation, no representation without taxation.

    You wanna engage in political speech make sure you're paying for the politics. Gotta pay to have a say.
    So where does that put our First Nations people?
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  29. #29

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    The First Nations & their relations to the rest of Canada are something I don't have the knowledge or depth or experience to adequately discuss in this context.

    I can't speak to the treaties from the side of Canada (I've tried to wrap my head around it all but saying it's a confusing mess is putting it mildly. Like Taco Bell mild sauce mildly) & I have no concept of the First Nations struggles or perspective as I'm not First Nations.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by jizzaldo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Bad idea. Faith schools and public universities do not mix under any circumstances. These place should be denied all public funding. Let the faithful support their own faith.
    I'm sure the 'faithful' pay taxes too.
    Also the entire society gains from a well educated population regardless of which institution they are taught. We must remember most of the world's great universities and hospitals were started by religious institutions.

    Example
    The official founding of Cambridge University is traced to the enhancement, by a charter in 1231 from King Henry III of England (the first English university to be granted one; Oxford followed in 124, which awarded the ius non-trahi extra (a right to discipline its own members) plus some exemption from taxes, and a bull in 1233 from Pope Gregory IX that gave graduates from Cambridge the right to teach "everywhere in Christendom".

    After Cambridge was described as a studium generale in a letter by Pope Nicholas IV in 1290, and confirmed as such in a bull by Pope John XXII in 1318, it became common for researchers from other European medieval universities to visit Cambridge to study or to give lecture courses.[
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge

    Some of the world's greatest minds have come through the doors of Cambridge; from Sir Issac Newton, Darwin and the three wie men, John Cleese, Eric Idle, Graham Chapman, (sort of throws that whole religious bias out)
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  31. #31

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    Newton the heretic?
    Darwin the agnostic?
    Cleese who despises Christianity?
    Idle the atheist?
    Chapman the homosexual who played Brian?
    How about we add in Douglas Adams, another Cambridge educated atheist of some renown?

    Yeah, stunning endorsement of religious instruction, all of them. Evidently being taught at Cambridge makes exceptional people even less likely to be mainline Christians, at least for the last 300 years or so.
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  32. #32

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    Just shows that even universities founded by religious institutions produce great people that are not mindless zealots. Sort of takes the wind out of your sails.
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  33. #33

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    Dude, it was founded 800 years ago when feudalism was seen as a pretty kickin' socioeconomic system & the only literate people left after the fall of the Western Roman Empire were in the Church.

    Things change, society evolves. Unless you've got a never-wrong, all-knowing, unchanging, 2000 year old book of Middle Eastern paranormal superstition as the lens you view the entire world through.
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  34. #34

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    Look around Edmonton noodle. Last time I looked we had a public school system and a separate school system that works very well. There is a healthy competition between the two school systems that IMHO, make both work harder to provide a better choice, innovative programs and higher standards. This is better than a offerings no choice, a homogenized monopolized and bland public only system.

    Why are you suggesting that higher education be any different? In fact many Universities in the world are private corporations so why are corporations getting public funding. One of the reasons why tuition is climbing faster than inflation is that Universities such as the UofA are getting huge amounts from the Government to build capital projects yet are constantly paring down on quality education while emphasising quantity throughput in assembly line economics that reward those institutions with tax dollars based on the number of students they produce. Too much of our education system is being based upon the factory model and corporatization. Are you suggesting that corporations will produce better educated citizens than religious organizations? IMHO, both are not perfect but I see nothing wrong with giving people a choice. If you don't like religious based institutions, don't send your kids there and they will wither away. Since after 800 years they still exist, there must be parents who disagree with you.

    http://www.utwatch.org/archives/teja...6_quality.html
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 05-07-2014 at 07:05 AM.
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  35. #35

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    Not in answer or to contend, but I think I've heard that the Catholic School system was originally actually a political way of acknowledging those of French Canadian heritage, i.e., as much regarding broad culture as specific religion or of being an instrument of one sect's church.

    I note the decline of importance of religion specifically within that broad culture.

    No point, just thought I'd heard that somewhere. This is not an area of expertise for me.
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Look around Edmonton noodle. Last time I looked we had a public school system and a separate school system that works very well. There is a healthy competition between the two school systems that IMHO, make both work harder to provide a better choice, innovative programs and higher standards. This is better than a offerings no choice, a homogenized monopolized and bland public only system.
    Citation please.

    You say it works well, I see needless duplication of administrative services & state-funded religious indoctrination of a single faith. I firmly believe that our basic educational system should be homogenized, that every child should have the benefit of the best education that's feasible, regardless of their parents' superstitions.

    I look around Edmonton & I see two school systems trying to manage dwindling enrolment in core areas while also building school after school on the edge of town. This "competition" is part of the problem in filling inner schools & the administrative overhead just keeps increasing as we build more & more on the edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Why are you suggesting that higher education be any different? In fact many Universities in the world are private corporations so why are corporations getting public funding. One of the reasons why tuition is climbing faster than inflation is that Universities such as the UofA are getting huge amounts from the Government to build capital projects yet are constantly paring down on quality education while emphasising quantity throughput in assembly line economics that reward those institutions with tax dollars based on the number of students they produce. Too much of our education system is being based upon the factory model and corporatization. Are you suggesting that corporations will produce better educated citizens than religious organizations? IMHO, both are not perfect but I see nothing wrong with giving people a choice. If you don't like religious based institutions, don't send your kids there and they will wither away. Since after 800 years they still exist, there must be parents who disagree with you.
    What a horribly fallacious false dichotomy you have here. "It's Jesus or it's Big Business", please.


    "Now who can tell me the atomic weight of 'Bolonium'?"

    While I am not fond of corporations exerting undo influence on society, corporations are under the rule of law. Churches, thanks to the church/state separation aren't. If a corporation operates in a method that's against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, they will be taken to court. However a supernatural superstition can also contravene the Charter but nothing can be done as it's "religious freedom". We can legislate out any corporate influence from the curriculum.

    I don't think we need "competition" in the educational system & the money saved by reducing the administrative overhead would better serve students than any sort of nebulous "competitive example". Wasted money on administration is money that could be spent on teachers, rather than trustees, superintendents, accountants & administrative support. Teachers who would lower class sizes by virtue of spreading things around, which is proven time & time again by study after study to be a massive benefit for everyone involved.

    The state should not fund any religious institutions. Period. Be they churches, seminaries, private religious colleges or separate school systems. It's funny that you mention parents, as my mother taught with the ECSB for 30 years & she's vehemently against the dual school board system. I myself went to public, Catholic separate & two private schools tied to different Christian sects. Why the religious schools? Because of faith? No. I've never believed & the faith based curriculum elements were seen as onerous & ritualistic. They were simply the best choice available for my parents & myself regardless of our faith or lack thereof. There were smaller class sizes. That's really it. That's why I was removed from the public system. So I could get more time with teachers thanks to my special needs circumstances. Not so I could find the lord or whatnot. Jesus didn't play a part in my education in any meaningful sense.

    In the last few years of my mother's career almost a quarter of her class (~8 students a year) were exempted from all religious instruction as they were of different faiths. So despite the purpose of the separate school system being in place to ensure the protection of the faith, more & more people are just using it as a way to get smaller class sizes without shelling out for an actual private school & ignoring the entire flimsy justification for the discriminatory protectionism. The parents are taking Jesus out of the schools even as they put their kids into the separate system. Also, there's not a single devout or practicing Catholic amongst my mom & her peer group of 10-15 ladies she still gets together with for brunch, bridge, investment clubs & social gatherings. The whole religiosity of the separate school system is suspect at best.

    Even if you do believe that a multi track system creates competition & allows choice, why do those choices have to be with one set of state-sponsored superstitions or without? Why not artistic, academic, composite & vocational systems? Leave religion to the religious institutions to pay for themselves with their congregations & open up the rest of the diverse programs to everyone. If we should be looking anywhere for guidance in our education system it should be to Finland, not The Vatican. There's a two track system that works.
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  37. #37

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    Citation for what?
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Citation for what?
    Your assertions in this passage.

    This is better than a offerings no choice, a homogenized monopolized and bland public only system.
    Please, show me the evidence. Show me how paying for trustees is better than paying for teachers. Show me why the Jesus/no Jesus split makes the schools better. Causation, not correlation.

    Given that we're now talking about the compulsory primary & secondary educational systems I believe homogeneity is a good thing. Specialization is for post-secondary education, whereas compulsory education should be about providing everyone with the same broad, basic set of skills to make their way in the world through their own choices.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with a monopoly either, it's only an issue when the monopoly is used to exert undo force to the detriment of others. Kinda like when the Church had a monopoly on literacy around the time of Cambridge's founding & the corrupt control they exerted on the political & social systems through their monopoly on having a magic book that only they could read, understand & interpret. I mean, what's a few Crusades between friends?

    Do we need competition in the other basic societal infrastructure too? Why not multiple Police & Fire Departments? Multiple militaries? Should we move away from our single-payer healthcare to an American-style system? These are all monopolies, operated for the benefit of society.

    And bland? Why bland? Because it doesn't include fables, supernatural stories & superstition in the curriculum? Where's the razzamatazz? The glitz? Please. Bland is subjective at best.

    Explain why only Catholics are worthy of having faith-based protectionism enshrined in the Constitution. Let's give the individual Protestant sects, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews & Buddhists their own school system with curriculums around their own unique belief structure since competition is good, more competition must be better. They'll need the same discrete school boards, trustees, administrative support as the current two systems, but since we're okay with duplication that's no big deal, right?

    Jaybee is right, the Catholic protectionism was put in place to assuage the concerns of the Roman Catholic French population after they were swallowed up by Protestant England. At this point, it's run out its usefulness & Alberta should follow the lead of BC (no separate system, max 50% funding per student for private schools that meet rigorous qualifications) or Newfoundland (one unified school district). Multiculturalism is alive & well in Canada & this sort of single-faith protectionism is discriminatory to everyone else.
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  39. #39

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    My opinions are just as valid as your opimions.

    I see that your mother was viamently against a dual school system yet did not stand on her principles and sent you to both.

    Why?

    Maybe she liked having a choice.

    Maybe she did not want a homogeneous system.

    You make it sound like a religious based University has Sister Mary Disipline in every classroom and you are brainwashed into what you call superstition. You really like being offensive don't you? How come you survived a Catholic school system and a similarly believing parent who was also part of that same faith based system you so much dispise?

    You make it sound that theses faith based schools and universities are above the law and that is totally untrue. They do have different policies and rules but must adhear to the government's standards of education.

    Dude, tone down the rantings and you bias, please.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 05-07-2014 at 01:12 PM.
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  40. #40

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    So no proof then. You've responded to my request for objective proof with your subjective opinion. Duly noted.

    My mother's principle of ensuring her son got the best education possible trumped her sociopolitical objections to the separate school boards. She knew I didn't believe. She told me to just ignore the religious doublespeak & focus on my academics.

    Without bringing up too much of my own personal life into the thread, I initially was enrolled in EPSB due to the curriculum they offered in German. After being skipped ahead & taking my CTBS in Grade 3 at the age of 7 I was moved (by the board, not my parents) into a special needs class elsewhere in Edmonton. My mom moved schools so she would teach at the Catholic school across the street so she could drive me to the program every day. I had some issues that prevented me from continuing in that program, so I transferred to Sherwood Park, where I lived. At the time, the public school board in Sherwood Park had far larger class sizes & given the circumstances present a smaller class size was seen as a bigger plus than religious instruction was a minus.

    If she could have, she would have left me in the special needs program in Edmonton. That wasn't feasible. The next best fit was the Separate School system in Sherwood Park. After that, I went to a boarding school on Vancouver Island that is nationally ranked as one of the best schools in Canada year after year & after that I went to my sister's alma matter for the remainder of high school, once again due to the small class sizes & student body being more appropriate for my special needs. My sister had transferred in for high school for similar reasons after facing difficulties herself in large public school systems.

    I went to religious schools IN SPITE OF JESUS, not because of him. Ideally my mother would have actually homeschooled me rather than had me moved into the special needs class, however given my father's career in oil & gas construction during the mid80s, she could not afford to give up her career & stayed with the Catholic board (which paid better than public at the time, due to her tenure.) We would have preferred to keep me in the public system, but considering the level that it is overburdened, it would have detrimentally affected my education & not provided me the best possible outcome. Reducing redundancy would free up funding to go to the actual education of students & that remains my primary objection to the wasteful separate system.

    To say that my mother didn't have her principles & doesn't stick to them to this day is offensive. My mother pursued graduate studies in Education & got Masters & started work on a Doctorate while learning as much as she could to help me get as far in life as possible. I am fortunate that she has the convictions that she does & that she raised me to think critically about all aspects of life. I am forever in her debt.
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  41. #41

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    Nice personal story and reflection.

    In my earlier post I stated that IMHO so it is my opinion and the source for your edification is me.

    Your source is your personal opinion too. You narrative is one story but not the rule. Duly noted.

    Just because you have issues with Jesus is your issue and sorry to say if you want to change that you will have to ensure that you can vote for a political candidate in Alberta that can win the Premiership and change the staus quo.
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  42. #42

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    I get it. You like having your particular superstitions enshrined in the Constitution & enjoy your favoured, privileged, discriminatory status. Doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

    The funding of only Catholic schools & not of other faiths being discriminatory is an opinion shared not by me, but the Human Rights Commission of the United Nations.

    I get it. You like being special & view it as a validation of your ridiculous Church that's been complicit in genocide, paedophilia, corruption & abuse for it's entire history. Rocking the boat would involve changing a lifetime of brainwashing & reinforcement, which I'm guessing for you started in Catholic school yoursellf.

    I'm done with this. You can't have a rational discussion when one side is grounded in an irrational faith, especially when you refuse to see the bigger picture.
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  43. #43

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    I get it. You have anger issues and can't get past them because you do not have empathy nor consideration of other peoples rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion.

    If you had your way, you would have all us people of faith: Jewish, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all of the other religions you call superstitions ( nice of you to put the world's religions under one banner that includes 6 billion religious people people out of 7 billion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...us_populations) into camps to be indoctrinated in what you think we should believe in. You are in the minority. If you don't like it, get yourself elected and change the school system, the Constitution and the Charter of Rights. It not only protects Christians from people like you but also all the other religions you call superstitions and we are a pluralistic society which I am proud to be part of.

    If a Muslim or Jewish group wants to start a University in Alberta and get taxpayer funding, I have no issues with it. As you have experienced, you found that the quality of the education by your own admission was better than the public system. You should not complain about an education system that you benefited from both from the education you received but also put food on your table and cloths on your back with the income your mother brought home that included tax dollars from other Christians who directed their hard earned tax dollars to the separate school system. Maybe you would like living in China better?

    What exactly do you believe in? Jedism? Athiesm? C2Eism? Orwellism?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 05-07-2014 at 07:48 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    No taxation without representation, no representation without taxation.

    You wanna engage in political speech make sure you're paying for the politics. Gotta pay to have a say.
    That often conflicts with "one person, one vote" if you own property in other jurisdictions, stay at home parents performing an unpaid service, etc.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I get it. You like having your particular superstitions enshrined in the Constitution & enjoy your favoured, privileged, discriminatory status. Doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

    The funding of only Catholic schools & not of other faiths being discriminatory is an opinion shared not by me, but the Human Rights Commission of the United Nations.

    I get it. You like being special & view it as a validation of your ridiculous Church that's been complicit in genocide, paedophilia, corruption & abuse for it's entire history. Rocking the boat would involve changing a lifetime of brainwashing & reinforcement, which I'm guessing for you started in Catholic school yoursellf.

    I'm done with this. You can't have a rational discussion when one side is grounded in an irrational faith, especially when you refuse to see the bigger picture.
    It's a democracy so expect asymmetric policy, bias and discrimination based on majority wishes, social conventions and the like - even when it comes to designing a constitution aimed at protecting minorities.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I get it. You have anger issues and can't get past them because you do not have empathy nor consideration of other peoples rights to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion.

    If you had your way, you would have all us people of faith: Jewish, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and all of the other religions you call superstitions ( nice of you to put the world's religions under one banner that includes 6 billion religious people people out of 7 billion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...us_populations) into camps to be indoctrinated in what you think we should believe in. You are in the minority. If you don't like it, get yourself elected and change the school system, the Constitution and the Charter of Rights. It not only protects Christians from people like you but also all the other religions you call superstitions and we are a pluralistic society which I am proud to be part of.

    If a Muslim or Jewish group wants to start a University in Alberta and get taxpayer funding, I have no issues with it. As you have experienced, you found that the quality of the education by your own admission was better than the public system. You should not complain about an education system that you benefited from both from the education you received but also put food on your table and cloths on your back with the income your mother brought home that included tax dollars from other Christians who directed their hard earned tax dollars to the separate school system. Maybe you would like living in China better?

    What exactly do you believe in? Jedism? Athiesm? C2Eism? Orwellism?
    We are also slaves and beneficiaries of historical developments in this country that make some factors near impossible to change.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    What exactly do you believe in? Jedism? Athiesm? C2Eism? Orwellism?
    This. All the morals & ethics, none of the superstition and woo woo magic & ritual.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  48. #48

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    So your great Humanism with all your morals and ethics gives you the right to tell everyone who believes in a higher being they are a bunch of idiots?

    Boy do you have a Holier than thou attitude.

    You are not a Humanist but rather the darker and more sinister form, an Elitist.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 06-07-2014 at 08:25 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  49. #49

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    No, I am denying your supposition that as a believer you are special in any way & deserving of anything more or less than anyone else.

    Catholics have it better than any other faith when it comes to religious instruction during compulsory education & this isn't right. Favouritism is discrimination.

    I'm not saying you're an *****. I'm just saying your superstitions aren't valid for any sort of special consideration via public funding.

    Do I think believers lack critical thinking skills? Yeah. Any time you have to use "faith" as a bandaid to cover over gaps or smooth out contradictions you've lost an opportunity to gain insight & that's a lack of critical thinking. "No need to worry about the details, my invisible friend will sort it out when I'm dead."
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Do I think believers lack critical thinking skills? Yeah.
    So you ARE an elitist who prejudges people based upon their faith. You think your "faith" in Humanism makes you of superior intellect and belivers are not worthy of your intelligence. First of all I am NOT a Catholic but my faith or faithlessness is not on debate here. You are just trying to throw the other debaters under the bus with your ad hominem attacks in a lame effort to try to win an argument simply because you transend the debate as an Elitist. Now if I told you the I am a Humanist as well then your attacks on religion are baseless.

    I think having choice and competition in education are good things. Edmonton has one of the leading school systems that broke the long standing rules about only being able to go to the school in your neighbourhood. This created IMHO a stronger school system with more variety and innovation including women only schools, arts, military and sport oriented programs as well as Logos school programs that welcome problem students like Noodle.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 06-07-2014 at 12:50 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  51. #51

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    Way to assume I'm a "problem child". Just because I said I had special needs didn't mean I was a problem child.

    I tested out above the top percentile on my CTBS, meaning I came out on top of 99% of other Grade 3 students that year. Even though I was a year younger than the rest of my class, having been skipped ahead. I was moved because there was simply no way to educate me fast enough for my brain to handle inside of a regular classroom. I would have ended up skipped a second & third grade before I got out of Elementary school.

    Even when I was in the Academic Challenge Program I was assigned aides to keep me on track.

    I really don't think I needed brainwashing a la the Logos program.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  52. #52

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    So you are best friends with Stephen Hawking? You sound like a brilliant egghead with absolutely no social skills.

    BTW, an associate of Stephen, Dr. Don Page is one of those superstitious woo woo ritualistic believers that you say, lack critical thinking skills. He not only edit's Hawking's work and has changed Hawking's own understanding on the theories of time. He is also a God believing Christian who comes over to my place to talk about religion. Don is also a nice and friendly guy.


    Dr. Don Page (second from left) meets with fellow physicists (from left) James Hartle, Stephen Hawking and Thomas Hertog in April 2014.
    Don Page has a unit of time named after him: Page time. It’s the time it would take for a black hole to emit half its radiation. “It’s longer than the age of the universe,” says the University of Alberta physicist, whose area of expertise is cosmology and theoretical gravitational physics. “I like to say they named it for me because I’m such an old guy.”
    Source http://newtrail.ualberta.ca/spring20...ence-explained

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Page_(physicist)


    http://www.physics.ualberta.ca/Faculty/DonPage
    Profile: Don Page

    BA(1971) William Jewell College, USA;
    MS(1972) Caltech, USA; PhD(1976) Caltech;
    MA(1978 ) U Cambridge, UK;
    Research Assistant, U Cambridge, 1976-79;
    Asst. Prof., Penn State U, USA, 1979-83;
    Assoc. Prof., Penn State, 1983-86;
    Prof., Penn State, 1986-90;
    Prof., UofA, Canada, 1990-present

    Research Interests:
    Cosmology and theoretical gravitational physics

    Selected Publications:
    Don N. Page, 1976, ``Particle Emission Rates from a Black Hole: Massless Particles from an Uncharged, Nonrotating Hole,'' Physical Review D13 (2), 198-206.
    Don N.\ Page, 1980, ``Is Black-Hole Evaporation Predictable?'' Physical Review Letters 44 (5), 301-304.
    S. W. Hawking and Don N. Page, 1983, ``Thermodynamics of Black Holes in Anti-de Sitter Space,'' Communications in Mathematical Physics 87 (4), 577-588.
    G. W. Gibbons, H. Lu, Don N. Page, and C. N. Pope, 2005, ``The General Kerr-de Sitter Metrics in All Dimensions,'' Journal of Geometry and Physics 53 (1), 49-73.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 07-07-2014 at 11:28 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tox View Post
    My apologies that this thread is so far off track.

    The OP thread is just about changing the names of the institutions, not changing the funding as some would have you believe and are stridently against.

    In a memo sent to the institutions, Premier Dave Hancock said the name change will not affect their role in the provincial system.

    ôWhile this is an important change in nomenclature, it is not a change in either mandate or sector,ö he said
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...396/story.html
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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