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Thread: Is this a case of Wrongful Dismissal

  1. #1

    Default Is this a case of Wrongful Dismissal

    Jian Ghomeshi fired from CBC sexual behavior 'unbecoming a prominent host'. Geez, when in the CBC going to enter the 21st. century.


    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...506/story.html

    His side of the story.


    https://www.facebook.com/jianghomesh...52357063881750
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  2. #2

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    Too early to say. At this point, we only know his side of the story. A lot of different things are starting to circulate around. If several people are alleging he assaulted them, then we can't just dismiss that as a lie without looking into it.

  3. #3

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    Fair comment but he has been pretty clear in his own letter that it was all consensual. Apparently the girl who started all this is starting to back down on her version of what happened. Maybe the CBC should look into it further before they dismiss him out of hand. He seems to be getting judged by the CBC before they may even know the facts. I think his $50 million lawsuit is out of hand but hopefully if the CBC is wrong he will get something from them.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  4. #4

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    I guess cbc doesn't want a Jimmy Savile on their hands.

  5. #5

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    Well we'll see how that "behaviour unbecoming of a public radio show host" clause holds up in court I guess. Might see new precedent.

    As for levels of assault in his direction, that's something the court should decide should either the claimant or the authorities bring a case against him. No possible way the CBC could even pretend that aspect could have been involved in their decision.
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    50 million. Do I need to add this to the "Greedy Peoples" thread?

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    Given that this is the complete destruction of his current career path I don't think $50m is unreasonable. The big issue here is the nature of the allegations and fact they enter heavily into he said/she said territory and I doubt it will ever be publicly clear what really happened.

    As for wrongful dismissal, it's possible and I believe he is filing a grievance through his bargaining unit as well as the suit. I do think the CBC jumped the gun on this to their detriment. If they'd let it be until it came out on their own the damage would have been less than the current situation where they essentially triggered the whole thing.

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  8. #8

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    The incident where he told a CBC employee he wanted to hate **** her is grounds enough, on its own. I believe the CBC is well within its rights based just on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    The incident where he told a CBC employee he wanted to hate **** her is grounds enough, on its own. I believe the CBC is well within its rights based just on that.
    Except that at the time, and we don't know when that was, it sounds like neither the CBC nor the union were interested in doing much:

    The woman said she complained about Ghomeshi’s behaviour to her union representative, who took the complaint to a Q producer. As the woman recalls, the producer asked her “what she could do to make this a less toxic workplace” for herself. No further action was taken by the CBC, and the woman left the broadcaster shortly thereafter.
    http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...legations.html

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  10. #10

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    Don't believe there's a statute of limitations on that...

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    While I don't know the details of his collective agreement this would be more akin to double jeopardy since the issue was already brought to the union and the employer and was not pursued.

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  12. #12

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    The union rep representing the lady that brought forward should have been **********. Sounds like she has the biggest reason to sue.

    The cbc does not have any grounds on that someone does in their spare time outside of work, however one must keep their to lives seperate.

    I actually seen this happen at work a year and a half ago. Similar thing; guy was fooling around with girls quite a bit younger, filming their rendezvous, talking about it insistently at work with people he trusted. Did not take long for the workplace to become toxic, many viewing this superintendent as a chauvinistic womanizer, then to top it off a admin girl made a complaint, had to be addressed and the rest was history.

  13. #13

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    ^^ I'm guessing it wasn't immediately pursued because it wasn't public. It sounds like the CBC knew it was about to go public and decided to act before it became so...

    Also, not being pursued is not the same as the employer deciding that it was a baseless accusation... The CBC may have known that the incident did occur, but decided not to act because Jian was making them too much money.... until the spectre of public scandal arose...

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    Since the ins and outs of the kink world are a little obscure, here's a very good analysis of the situation from that perspective:


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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    ^^ I'm guessing it wasn't immediately pursued because it wasn't public. It sounds like the CBC knew it was about to go public and decided to act before it became so...

    Also, not being pursued is not the same as the employer deciding that it was a baseless accusation... The CBC may have known that the incident did occur, but decided not to act because Jian was making them too much money.... until the spectre of public scandal arose...
    i'm not sure how jian "was making them too much money when they don't charge anyone anything (at least on the radio side) for what and who they air.

    i'm also not party to enough information to take sides on this one but he has slowly and steadily descended to being one of my least favourite cbc personalities - jian is no peter gzowski or michael enright or rex murphy.

    his ongoing descent - for me anyway - has always been his insistence that he knows more about everything than the guests he is interviewing, including what they think and why they do things.

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...7&postcount=28

    for his sake i hope his off-air persona is not the same as his on-air persona...
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    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Don't believe there's a statute of limitations on that...
    No, but established case law for these kinds of lawsuits makes it pretty clear that if a company doesn't establish that such conduct is not permissible initially, it exposes itself to liability should it change it's mind later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swillv8
    The cbc does not have any grounds on that someone does in their spare time outside of work, however one must keep their to lives seperate.
    If the allegations of him physically/sexually assaulting several women without their consent are true, they absolutely can terminate him for such conduct. I would imagine that his employment contract/agreement has personal behaviour clauses. Businesses have every right to protect their reputation from being damaged by the behaviour of their employees, even outside of work.

    The problem is, this right now is a "he said/she said" situation. There are three women, aside from the former CBC employee, who have made similar allegations against him, but only anonymously and only to the Toronto Star. However, they didn't report them to police, at least in large part because another woman (Carla Ciccone) who made a post about a "bad date" with a well known radio personality (which she didn't actually name) was subjected to horrific harassment online by his fans when it was surmised that her post was about him.

    In any case, it's an ugly situation for all involved. Who knows where the truth lies.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lat View Post
    Don't believe there's a statute of limitations on that...
    No, but established case law for these kinds of lawsuits makes it pretty clear that if a company doesn't establish that such conduct is not permissible initially, it exposes itself to liability should it change it's mind later.

    <snip>

    The problem is, this right now is a "he said/she said" situation. There are three women, aside from the former CBC employee, who have made similar allegations against him, but only anonymously and only to the Toronto Star. However, they didn't report them to police, at least in large part because another woman (Carla Ciccone) who made a post about a "bad date" with a well known radio personality (which she didn't actually name) was subjected to horrific harassment online by his fans when it was surmised that her post was about him.

    In any case, it's an ugly situation for all involved. Who knows where the truth lies.
    Very true, all of my comments are pure conjecture at this point....

    I wonder what the time frames are here too... What was done when is important... Did the CBC decide not to act on the allegation for a week, a month, a year? I don't know at this point...

  18. #18

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    That Carla Ciccone XOJane article was really, really creepy to begin with & now under the new light that it's likely about Jian definitely adds some extra weight to the claims...
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    Who knows where this will end up but I am glad that Jian is finally off the air
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Who knows where this will end up but I am glad that Jian is finally off the air
    x 2

    i have no idea how he ever got both the air time and the same day replay time cbc gave him. i never did regret turning down an interview with him because i didn't like his centre of the universe approach to other people.
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  21. #21

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    Interesting that none of these women took their concerns to the police and yet approached a newspaper. If they felt like they had been assaulted you would have thought that at least one of them would have reported it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Interesting that none of these women took their concerns to the police and yet approached a newspaper. If they felt like they had been assaulted you would have thought that at least one of them would have reported it.
    It's an issue of power, celebrity, and perception. It appears they gave consent for something and it would be a real fear that they would be perceived as attacking a celebrity. Historically accusations against a celebrity have to be ironclad to make it past the court of public opinion.

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  23. #23

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    Seeing the backlash that Carla Ciccone got for a thinly-veiled, barely-anonymized account of her time spent with Jian could definitely give other victims pause when considering going to the authorities as well.
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  24. #24

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    ^Accusing a celebrity would also garner way more publicity than accusing an average Joe. It almost seems that the four of them approaching this newspaper is a safety in number approach. I'm not lying as there is three more women out there that are saying the same thing deal. If they feel they have been assaulted then go to the police, going to a newspaper is not going to solve things.
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    To be fair to the women, I don't think they did not go to the newspaper. It appears Jesse Brown started on the story a few months ago and tracked them down. He tried to farm the story to the Toronto Sun who followed up with them. None of them wanted to go officially on the record and given some of the Internet lynch mobs out there I don't really blame them.

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  26. #26

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    There's only 3 women involved with or mentioned in the Star. The 4th is the woman from the XOJane article that got harrassed, threatened, doxxed & otherwise abused after posting her account & people figured out it was Jian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    There's only 3 women involved with or mentioned in the Star. The 4th is the woman from the XOJane article that got harrassed, threatened, doxxed & otherwise abused after posting her account & people figured out it was Jian.
    I thought the Star article mentioned three women outside of CBC and one within who had complained about harassment.

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  28. #28

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    Sounds like this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake.

    If it does turn out these relationships were non-consensual he deserves whats coming to him.
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  29. #29

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    If a person is sexually assaulted they should go to the police. Not the media or internet chat lines or twitter etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Interesting that none of these women took their concerns to the police and yet approached a newspaper. If they felt like they had been assaulted you would have thought that at least one of them would have reported it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini
    ^Accusing a celebrity would also garner way more publicity than accusing an average Joe. It almost seems that the four of them approaching this newspaper is a safety in number approach. I'm not lying as there is three more women out there that are saying the same thing deal. If they feel they have been assaulted then go to the police, going to a newspaper is not going to solve things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini
    If a person is sexually assaulted they should go to the police. Not the media or internet chat lines or twitter etc.
    The Star approached them, not the other way around. And again, if they report it to the police their names become public. The Star agreed to keep them anonymous. And as I outlined, another journalist who posted about a bad date with an anonymous radio personality was absolutely pilloried and harassed online when his fans surmised it was about him.

    Not reporting sexual abuse is a very, very common problem for many obvious reasons. But please, continue shaming the victims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Sounds like this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake.

    If it does turn out these relationships were non-consensual he deserves whats coming to him.
    aren't those two sentences diametrically opposed to each other?

    as for the first one, sook-yin lee didn't get thrown under the bus by the world or by cbc for behavior a lot more public than one's own choices in one's own bedroom.

    the question here isn't one's own choice but whether that choice included or excluded another's choice. far from the same thing.
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  32. #32

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    Hey, I have no intentions of shaming victims. If they had of went to the police the police would have handled it differently. These women chose to talk to a newspaper (whose purpose is to sell as many papers as possible). I know a lot of sexual assaults are not reported. The newspaper, twitter or the internet does not solve crimes but the police do. If they do not agree with Jian that these encounters were consensual and they were violated they should report it. The police would have kept their confidentiality.
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    The police would have kept their confidentiality.
    Hahaha, thanks Gemini. I needed a good laugh this morning.
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  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    The police would have kept their confidentiality.
    Hahaha, thanks Gemini. I needed a good laugh this morning.
    What makes you think they would not have. If it went to court it would be a different matter. How long do you think their names are going to be kept under wraps now it is front page news?.
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  35. #35

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    The fact that we are even discussing this tells me the Cbc were right to dismiss. I would never go public with an employment related issue (why? if you have an issue, that's what courts are for, not public opinion).

  36. #36

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    "Prominent host" fired.

    Wanting 50M?

    I guess its odd I've never heard of or seen this guy before today.

    For sure not my genre, or demographic but would anybody on CBC (radio?) be legitimately asking for that kind of dough?
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Fair comment but he has been pretty clear in his own letter that it was all consensual. Apparently the girl who started all this is starting to back down on her version of what happened. Maybe the CBC should look into it further before they dismiss him out of hand. He seems to be getting judged by the CBC before they may even know the facts. I think his $50 million lawsuit is out of hand but hopefully if the CBC is wrong he will get something from them.
    This has already been covered in the thread but random hookups with people you hardly know as seems to be the case here is not a proper consensual domain for high risk activity like face punching and asphyxiation.

    Any of which could so easily be pursued as grievous sexual and physical assault.

    This is extremely poor judgement by anybody to engage in such high risk activity.

    I thank CBC for not being so *enlightened* that activities that are so obviously abusive in nature are not considered appropriate.

    For anybody to argue this as freedom of "sexual choice" activity as the ex-host is apparently doing is misguided.
    Last edited by Replacement; 27-10-2014 at 12:43 PM.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Sounds like this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake.

    If it does turn out these relationships were non-consensual he deserves whats coming to him.
    aren't those two sentences diametrically opposed to each other?

    as for the first one, sook-yin lee didn't get thrown under the bus by the world or by cbc for behavior a lot more public than one's own choices in one's own bedroom.

    the question here isn't one's own choice but whether that choice included or excluded another's choice. far from the same thing.
    Well yes they are opposite. If this guys turns out to be guilty - that these relationships were much more than a BDSM relationship; rather unwanted advanceds, groping, touching, then he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

    If he is just some closeted kinkster being roasted by a few bitter ex-girl friends then hes hooped.

    From what Ive been reading about this case it seems like he is on the defense super quick. His defense is polished and it seems like he is trying to use the 'woe is me I am a kinkster behind clothes doors and now the world knows im different - ps im innocent'

    Its hard to say one way or the other until all the facts come to light. But I usually tend to believe a lady over a guy in a position of power. Maybe that's a bias I have.

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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Fair comment but he has been pretty clear in his own letter that it was all consensual. Apparently the girl who started all this is starting to back down on her version of what happened. Maybe the CBC should look into it further before they dismiss him out of hand. He seems to be getting judged by the CBC before they may even know the facts. I think his $50 million lawsuit is out of hand but hopefully if the CBC is wrong he will get something from them.
    This has already been covered in the thread but random hookups with people you hardly know as seems to be the case here is not a proper consensual domain for high risk activity like face punching and asphyxiation.

    Any of which could so easily be pursued as grievous sexual and physical assault.

    This is extremely poor judgement by anybody to engage in such high risk activity.

    I thank CBC for not being so *enlightened* that activities that are so obviously abusive in nature are not considered appropriate.

    For anybody to argue this as freedom of "sexual choice" activity as the ex-host is apparently doing is misguided.
    Well, the guys/gals do have freedom of 'sexual choice' if it is consensual. If Jian did anything that was not consensual why are these girls telling the media and not the police.
    Not sure how these SM types hook up but I agree if you are going to engage in that kind of behavior you would have to trust who you are with. If punching each other in the face and strangling each other is what floats these SM fans boats there is not much anyone can do about it. IF this were a court case one of the first questions to be asked is why did you go to the media first and not the police.
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  40. #40

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    From Dan Savage's blog on the issue

    The ability to produce emails or texts showing that a person consented to kinks A, B, and C is not proof that person consented to kinks D, E, and F; those same emails and texts also don't prove that a person who has previously consented to kinks A, B, and C didn't withdraw their consent during sex that included kinks A, B, and C.
    Consent isn't just a green light to go & in the BDSM community you've admitted to having no idea about it's a very complex & nuanced thing.

    Full blog entry is here:

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/arc...nsual-bdsm-sex
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  41. #41

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    Yeah, a) you can punch me in the face b) tie me up c) hurt me, but d) no slapping, e) no blowing in my ear & f) no smoking after.

    Complicated, you betcha. Makes me wonder why they bother.
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  42. #42

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    ^blame that mommy porn shades of grey thing.

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    Gemini, you are aware that there are many women whose ordeal only gets worse if they report to police. Aren't you? The women get put through the wringer and the guys (especially if they're important guys like this case) get off scot free. So it's not worth the hassle. I don't know how the reporter tracked down the three women in his article, but the bar for anonymously talking about their experience is lower than a full police report.

    I came of age in the 70's where "she liked it rough" was a surefire way for rapists to be exonerated.

    In this case, I could care less what he does in his free time. Lots of people are jerks in their free time but adequate workers on the job. Where the misbehavior starts getting into criminal territory, you're right it's up to the authorities. But when that happens, I don't know about your workplace, but mine does a criminal check for employment.

    But it seems that part of his modus operandi was to use his job perks, i.e., concerts he attends as part of his CBC job, as a lure which he followed up with a weird kind of stalking and perhaps the assaults. The on-the-job harassment, while not apparently taken seriously by the employer, is the other thing I would agree he needs to be accountable for in an employment sense.

    The BDSM is nobody's business, but as one of the blogs referred to indicates, choking and blows to the head are more than 50 Shades stuff.

    Eve

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Yeah, a) you can punch me in the face b) tie me up c) hurt me, but d) no slapping, e) no blowing in my ear & f) no smoking after.

    Complicated, you betcha. Makes me wonder why they bother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Yeah, a) you can punch me in the face b) tie me up c) hurt me, but d) no slapping, e) no blowing in my ear & f) no smoking after.

    Complicated, you betcha. Makes me wonder why they bother.
    Sex should only be missionary, in the dark, and solely for the purpose of procreation!
    i know you were being sarcastic but sex should only be completely and continuously consensual between equals. after that it's noone's business except the consenting individuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Yeah, a) you can punch me in the face b) tie me up c) hurt me, but d) no slapping, e) no blowing in my ear & f) no smoking after.

    Complicated, you betcha. Makes me wonder why they bother.
    Sex should only be missionary, in the dark, and solely for the purpose of procreation!
    i know you were being sarcastic but sex should only be completely and continuously consensual between equals. after that it's noone's business except the consenting individuals.
    And therein lies the problem as human relations are not cut and dried like that so the issues of consent get complex. It's why there is a kink community where the people work hard to make sure everything is consensual all the time.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  47. #47

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    After some rough experiences in my past & the past of those very dear to me I take consent extremely seriously Ken, I was more just mocking the "eeewwwwwwww. kink! dirty!" tone that Gem's been putting out.
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  48. #48

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    ^Wow, I don't care what other people do that's consensual. Whatever blows their socks off and they are adults has nothing to do with me. Just because I don't think getting punched in the face and strangled is a term of endearment it does not say it's not for others. My point is, if the ladies in question did not consent to any of whatever it was they were up to they should report it to the police and not the newspaper.
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    And as we keep repeating, reporting to police is often a non-starter and they didn't report it to the newspaper. The newspaper contacted them. They're under no obligation to lie to the reporter.

    Eve

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Gemini, you are aware that there are many women whose ordeal only gets worse if they report to police. Aren't you? The women get put through the wringer and the guys (especially if they're important guys like this case) get off scot free. So it's not worth the hassle. I don't know how the reporter tracked down the three women in his article, but the bar for anonymously talking about their experience is lower than a full police report.

    I came of age in the 70's where "she liked it rough" was a surefire way for rapists to be exonerated.

    In this case, I could care less what he does in his free time. Lots of people are jerks in their free time but adequate workers on the job. Where the misbehavior starts getting into criminal territory, you're right it's up to the authorities. But when that happens, I don't know about your workplace, but mine does a criminal check for employment.

    But it seems that part of his modus operandi was to use his job perks, i.e., concerts he attends as part of his CBC job, as a lure which he followed up with a weird kind of stalking and perhaps the assaults. The on-the-job harassment, while not apparently taken seriously by the employer, is the other thing I would agree he needs to be accountable for in an employment sense.

    The BDSM is nobody's business, but as one of the blogs referred to indicates, choking and blows to the head are more than 50 Shades stuff.

    Eve
    While I agree that to many women do not go to the police in cases like this I also wonder why they would talk to a freelance journalist who is more than likely trying to make a name for themselves. It's yet to be proven if anyone of these allegations are true or trumped. If they had of went to the police it may have been handled in a more discrete manner. Now the armchair critics (us) are speculating on what when and how. Jian apparently hired the PR group Navigator to pen his letter to the public. I am also sure the BDSM community do not like the attention this has generated, especially it being mostly negative. Like I said, what they get up to is their business but don't go crying foul to the press if you have been assaulted.
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    OK, it's clear that you don't want women who have been assaulted to talk to the media. Is it OK by you if they talk to their friends? Or post on Facebook? Or blogs?

    Eve

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    What are the media going to do about an assault except put it in print for the public to read. I guess if you don't want the person who assaulted you charged you could just tell it to whomever you want. Fly it on the back of a plane on a streamer. By that reasoning anyone who gets robbed, ripped off, assaulted should just tell the media. Why bother with the police, they read the papers, they can find out that way. Then again, they cannot do anything until a formal complaint is made.
    Now, I can see if you are into SM you may not want people to know you got assaulted during one of these sessions. To vent it's always good to have a friend to talk to. On the other hand, if a journalist asks for your story you are under no obligation to tell it. The women who are making these allegations will not stay faceless for long. Apparently one of them is already recanting her story. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.
    Last edited by Gemini; 27-10-2014 at 04:17 PM.
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    OK, you're never going to get it.

    Eve

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    ^ Yep
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    Canadian law, consent, and BDSM:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/

    tldr: In Canada you can not consent to bodily harm. If it leaves a mark, it's illegal. Also consent can be revoked at any time.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Not the way you guys are explaining yourselves.
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  57. #57

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    Gem: She should have gone to the cops, not the newspaper.

    Us: Well, a lot of sexual assaults go unreported due to the act of reporting it being mired in institutionalized sexism, plus the feelings of guilt, shame & self-loathing & ptsd. And that's not even dealing with the touchy subject of kink & consent. Oh, and the newspaper found them, not the other way around.

    Gem: She should have gone to the cops not the newspaper. And I think it's dumb they like that stuff, perverts.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.
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    ^That's what I have been saying all along, go to the cops not the newspapers. I can grasp the feelings of guilt, shame, did I ask for this etc. Trust me, I can sympathize with these women. What I don't understand is that a journalist approaches them for their stories. Did they think the journalist was doing this out of the goodness of his/her heart?. Journalist are usually not social workers. They are out to get stories that they then get paid for by newspapers. What we have now is one big 'he said, he did', she said, she did' free for all.
    Last edited by Gemini; 27-10-2014 at 04:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    After some rough experiences in my past & the past of those very dear to me I take consent extremely seriously Ken, I was more just mocking the "eeewwwwwwww. kink! dirty!" tone that Gem's been putting out.
    i wasn't suggesting anything otherwise and i appreciate your willingness to add a personal perspective i cannot other than a belief that whatever transpires between individuals sexual or not requires complete and continuous consent between equals.

    and one of the things that seems to missing from this discussion is the "between equals" qualifier. as paul noted earlier, human relations are not cut and dried so the issues of consent get complex. one of the things that is almost always cut and dried however is equality, particularly when it is absent.

    as such, it is something that cannot - or should not - be ignored either at the time or subsequently. and one of the difficulties when equality is absent is that it remains absent after the fact as well as at the time. which means that if that lack of equality is abused at the time, it is surely going to be used and abused after the fact.

    i think that's why things don't get reported to the police whether in instances like this or in cases of spousal abuse etc.. there is almost no way the police can proceed with a full investigation and keep it confidential, not if they are affording the protection given to any accused to know at some point what they are being accused of and when and by whom.

    are journalists - or the media they represent - in matters like this entirely altruistic? probably not. but they may be capable of exercising greater degrees of confidentiality or non-disclosure (provided they are prepared to exercise it) than the police and they may be more capable of discovering corroborative evidence or behavior. and when the parties involved are not equals, that may be particularly attractive, particularly when the discussion is initiated by a journalist and not the police. in saying that i wonder if that difference would be minimized if, through the results of an investigation, the victim was approached by the police instead of having to report to the police (although that would take at least one victim being prepared to ignore the inequality and start the investigation in the first place).

    sorry for rambling so long in response to a short post.
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    Here's an article from the Financial Post why his $50 million lawsuit is going to go absolutely nowhere, even if he's telling the truth.

    http://business.financialpost.com/20...ing-the-truth/

    edit: And FWIW, I never heard of him either until a couple days ago. Then again, I gave up listening to the radio back in 2001.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Fair comment but he has been pretty clear in his own letter that it was all consensual. Apparently the girl who started all this is starting to back down on her version of what happened. Maybe the CBC should look into it further before they dismiss him out of hand. He seems to be getting judged by the CBC before they may even know the facts. I think his $50 million lawsuit is out of hand but hopefully if the CBC is wrong he will get something from them.
    This has already been covered in the thread but random hookups with people you hardly know as seems to be the case here is not a proper consensual domain for high risk activity like face punching and asphyxiation.

    Any of which could so easily be pursued as grievous sexual and physical assault.

    This is extremely poor judgement by anybody to engage in such high risk activity.

    I thank CBC for not being so *enlightened* that activities that are so obviously abusive in nature are not considered appropriate.

    For anybody to argue this as freedom of "sexual choice" activity as the ex-host is apparently doing is misguided.
    Well, the guys/gals do have freedom of 'sexual choice' if it is consensual. If Jian did anything that was not consensual why are these girls telling the media and not the police.
    Not sure how these SM types hook up but I agree if you are going to engage in that kind of behavior you would have to trust who you are with. If punching each other in the face and strangling each other is what floats these SM fans boats there is not much anyone can do about it. IF this were a court case one of the first questions to be asked is why did you go to the media first and not the police.
    You seem to have no idea what actual consent for sexual activity is in present day. Consent needs to be informed, continual, reciprocal, balanced(equal), and for both parties to be able to formulate and agree to said consent at all times.

    It strikes as a no brainer that in the action of punching somebody in the head or asphyxiating them first and foremost this can interfere with what consent is and how that consent is being obtained or the potential that the consenter is no longer able to give informed consent or that they become confused.

    Do you think for even one moment somebody with a previous experience of abuse may freeze in such a situation and not be able to effectively say no, or effect a way to stop the activity, or think that they can?

    A person would have to be completely idiotic on this entire issue to engage in this nature of activity without knowing much about the partners. People can have all kinds of other prior experiences that would impact how they think about this or respond to it.

    This leads to another point that a person in a position of influence and power i.e. fame can be culpable of inducing cooperation for this nature of activity that the person may or may not want to do but are led to .

    For a person in a position of public trust to be engaging in such activities knowingly and convincing themselves that its all OK to do this and theres no ramifications is frankly incredible. I don't know how a normal thinking individual could even think this was going to be sensible or appropriate conduct.
    Last edited by Replacement; 27-10-2014 at 06:03 PM.
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  62. #62

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    Excuse me. I did read this what another poster has provided.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/


    Unlike you I am not quoting it now, even though it does a very good job in explaining the nuance of 'consent' as far as BDSM is concerned. I am fully aware you have to keep reassuring someone in these BDSM relationships that it is O.K. for them to punch you in the face and try to strangle you just don't mess up my hair. Fully aware a person would have to know what they are doing and when to stop. Weather you (as you state) don't know how a normal thinking individual could even think this was going to be sensible or appropriate conduct, is not the point in this case. It's the very, very thin line of at what point in all this bondage, sadism does one cross the line. I'm not into this stuff so for me the first clues would be getting punched in the face.
    Last edited by Gemini; 27-10-2014 at 06:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Excuse me. I did read this what another poster has provided.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/


    Unlike you I am not quoting it now, even though it does a very good job in explaining the nuance of 'consent' as far as BDSM is concerned. I am fully aware you have to keep reassuring someone in these BDSM relationships that it is O.K. for them to punch you in the face and try to strangle you just don't mess up my hair. Fully aware a person would have to know what they are doing and when to stop. Weather you (as you state) don't know how a normal thinking individual could even think this was going to be sensible or appropriate conduct, is not the point in this case. It's the very, very thin line of at what point in all this bondage, sadism does one cross the line. I'm not into this stuff so for me the first clues would be getting punched in the face.

    Sorry that I missed the link. Its a good link. Also I would say a good law. The idea of consent to physical harm is a dubious notion in anycase. For some of the reasons I mentioned and others. Eve touched on it earlier.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    I told him in FB , I do not know full story , I do not know what he was thinking or what is he is up to ?? it is between him and CBC that's it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Canadian law, consent, and BDSM:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/

    tldr: In Canada you can not consent to bodily harm. If it leaves a mark, it's illegal. Also consent can be revoked at any time.
    Boxing, MMA, Hockey….

  66. #66

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    Been thinking a lot about this. And beyond whether Ghomeshi is innocent or guilty. The cornerstone of our justice system is "innocent until proven guilty." The burden of proof is to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, it appears we have not progressed as much as we have thought beyond the "Mad Men" era. That's because in situations like this, the burden of proof seems to be as intense on the victim's side in terms of proving their innocence and establishing they had no other motive in talking about this beyond seeking justice. This is particularly true when it involves seemingly powerful males and women who are at different stages of their lives. I think there may be some reasons why they did not come forward offically. And bear in mind, the former CBC employee did come forward - and was rebuffed by one of her managers like it was 1965.

    BTW, several people have said it was the Sun who brought this forward but it was the Toronto Star. With the Globe one of Canada's two great newspapers. It's hardly a tabloid rag. Also, none of the women knew each other. Hardly a plot at work here. They did not come forward. They were sought out by blogger, Jesse Brown who brought the story to the Star several months ago because he did not have libel insurance.

    Nonetheless, there's a lot more to come. If these women come forward officially and on the record, it appears - quite sadly - that they will be in for a very rough ride.

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    Weirdo. Requires a severe *** kicking. Imagine if it was your daughter or sister that he dated. I always thought the guy was an a hole. Now it's public information.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 28-10-2014 at 04:40 AM.

  68. #68

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    "innocent until proven guilty" is all well and good... in a court of law... but this is a contract between Jian and the CBC. If his contract has a clause speaking to personal conduct that may impact the CBC's reputation (I'd be shocked if it didn't), then perception becomes reality. May not be fair, but an organization's brand is typically jealously guarded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Canadian law, consent, and BDSM:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/

    tldr: In Canada you can not consent to bodily harm. If it leaves a mark, it's illegal. Also consent can be revoked at any time.
    Boxing, MMA, Hockey….
    Someone would have to lay charges and I believe with hockey this has happened in Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Canadian law, consent, and BDSM:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/

    tldr: In Canada you can not consent to bodily harm. If it leaves a mark, it's illegal. Also consent can be revoked at any time.
    Boxing, MMA, Hockey….
    Someone would have to lay charges and I believe with hockey this has happened in Canada.
    that "someone" is usually the crown, sometimes instigated by a complaint but not always, particularly when the incident is "public". personally i find it ironic that the crown and its agencies can devote considerable effort to eliminate dog and **** fighting but turn the other way in regard to mma etc. and i wonder if that's just another example of misplaced or poorly focused priorities.
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    It's a gray area in the sense that while it is technically assault the participants are choosing to participate. Animal abuse, on the other hand, is definitively illegal.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    It's a gray area in the sense that while it is technically assault the participants are choosing to participate. Animal abuse, on the other hand, is definitively illegal.
    it's gray but i'm not sure it's the participants' choice that makes it gray or the audience and the venue. the same behaviour in a different venue - a pub, a street, a backyard - would be assault, choice notwithstanding. as for bdsm which takes place in the privacy of a home, that's where black and white probably moves to gray. and that's probably where ongoing and informed consent between equals needs to come in to play with the emphasis regardless of the chosen roles has to be placed on being and remaining equals at all time. and i don't believe there is room for gray in that regardless of the form of behaviour chosen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Animal abuse, on the other hand, is definitively illegal.
    Hmmm, even that is grey I think, I mean, is killing an animal for food animal abuse? Arguably it is, but we accept it.

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    ^ The treatment of animals before they become food is even worse (especially for intelligent, social creatures like pigs). And we have very little problem with that.

    Eve

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    Maybe Jian can start a pig farm now. He could beat them suckers senseless.

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    The legal issues with animals seems like a tangent for another thread.

    The issue at hand is consent between people regarding bodily harm and the issue is murky: Canadian law imposes some limits on freedom to consent to violent sexual activity


    The case law to date basically tries to ride the boundary of what society finds acceptable. So brawls are out but contact sports are acceptable:

    Canadian courts recognize that violence alone won’t wipe out consent. Some degree of non-trivial harm is allowed. For example, when you play contact sports, such as hockey, football or rugby, your willing participation in the game is evidence of your consent to get roughed up.
    With sex it seems the current situation is one where the law does intrude into the bedroom:

    “when the activity in question involves pursuing sexual gratification by deliberately inflicting pain upon another that gives rise to bodily harm, then the personal interest of the individuals involved must yield to the more compelling societal interests which are challenged by such behaviour.”
    Personally I think this goes too far but it is, nonetheless, the current state of the law in Canada.

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    I can't help but wonder what this conversation would be like if it was Sun TV's Ezra Levant in this as opposed to a progressive idol like Ghomeshi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Canadian law, consent, and BDSM:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle21315629/

    tldr: In Canada you can not consent to bodily harm. If it leaves a mark, it's illegal. Also consent can be revoked at any time.
    Boxing, MMA, Hockey….
    Someone would have to lay charges and I believe with hockey this has happened in Canada.
    that "someone" is usually the crown, sometimes instigated by a complaint but not always, particularly when the incident is "public". personally i find it ironic that the crown and its agencies can devote considerable effort to eliminate dog and **** fighting but turn the other way in regard to mma etc. and i wonder if that's just another example of misplaced or poorly focused priorities.
    In another venue with someone who is more familiar with the detail of the law this was raised. It seems, and I need to double check this my friends who actually are lawyers, that the only time the Crown can lay assault charges without a complaint is with domestic violence and that only applies for a spouse not a date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    I can't help but wonder what this conversation would be like if it was Sun TV's Ezra Levant in this as opposed to a progressive idol like Ghomeshi.
    interesting question but i would hope that the conversation would be the same in that it's about power and lack of equality which is something that has nothing to do with politics (or shouldn't have anything to do with politics). it doesn't - or shouldn't - have anything to do with gender either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Sounds like this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake.

    If it does turn out these relationships were non-consensual he deserves whats coming to him.
    aren't those two sentences diametrically opposed to each other?

    as for the first one, sook-yin lee didn't get thrown under the bus by the world or by cbc for behavior a lot more public than one's own choices in one's own bedroom.

    the question here isn't one's own choice but whether that choice included or excluded another's choice. far from the same thing.
    She wasn't thrown under the (short) bus by the CBC but they were looking up the route map until there was a public outcry.

    Sook-Yin Lee was almost fired by CBC when it was announced she was taking the role. "There was confusion and fear on the part of my bosses," she says now, adding that she was fascinated how they all supported the idea of the film, but they all said that the boss above them didn't want her to do it. The threat of firing was dropped in the face of a public protest supporting her decision.

    http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...1-ab780e7cfd4d

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    Interesting angle from an employment lawyer:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...969/story.html

    Essentially he argues that Ghomeshi's suit will be dismissed however since all claims within the suit are protected, it gives him a forum to make whatever claims he wants without fear of litigation since anything in the claim is protected.

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    The only difference would be if the conservative figure had a history of publicly condemning the behaviour of which he was accused.

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    I find some of the purpoted reports of treatment of women by this indiviudal disturbing. I don't know if true or not, but I can understand the CBC on this. If he has an issue, its for the Courts, the fact that he spoke up tells me he doesn't think he has a very good case.

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/na...275/story.html
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-10-2014 at 05:55 PM.

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    According to what I have heard is that a person belonging to a union cannot sue their employer. By belonging to a union you forfeit your right to take them to court. If this is true one would think that the law company that took this case would tell him so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I find some of the purpoted reports of treatment of women by this indiviudal disturbing. I don't know if true or not, but I can understand the CBC on this. If he has an issue, its for the Courts, the fact that he spoke up tells me he doesn't think he has a very good case.

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/na...275/story.html
    There are women lining up with their accounts of his actions. He is toast IMHO.
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  87. #87

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    ^not anonymous anymore:

    http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...-his-apartment

    I hope this scumbag gets put away. The sad thing is for every guy like this who gets found out there are dozens who get away with such behaviour
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-10-2014 at 08:57 PM.

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    Wow this is to much!! This is not fantasy play or bdsm this is outright assault. I hope now that everything is come forward everything can be brought to light and he can get the help he needs. And positive comes out of this rotton situation how many women endured and haunted with too many feeling to list

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    The help he needs, as in jail time with daily arse kickings. Stand by, I believe there's more to come.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 30-10-2014 at 01:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    According to what I have heard is that a person belonging to a union cannot sue their employer. By belonging to a union you forfeit your right to take them to court. If this is true one would think that the law company that took this case would tell him so.
    If the lawyer I linked to is accurate it's a PR move rather than a legal move. It allows him to make any claim he wants without legal repercussions.

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    Yup as more details come to light sounds like this guy is just a sick SOB with anger issues and zero respect for women.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Gemini, you are aware that there are many women whose ordeal only gets worse if they report to police. Aren't you? The women get put through the wringer and the guys (especially if they're important guys like this case) get off scot free. So it's not worth the hassle. I don't know how the reporter tracked down the three women in his article, but the bar for anonymously talking about their experience is lower than a full police report.

    I came of age in the 70's where "she liked it rough" was a surefire way for rapists to be exonerated.

    In this case, I could care less what he does in his free time. Lots of people are jerks in their free time but adequate workers on the job. Where the misbehavior starts getting into criminal territory, you're right it's up to the authorities. But when that happens, I don't know about your workplace, but mine does a criminal check for employment.

    But it seems that part of his modus operandi was to use his job perks, i.e., concerts he attends as part of his CBC job, as a lure which he followed up with a weird kind of stalking and perhaps the assaults. The on-the-job harassment, while not apparently taken seriously by the employer, is the other thing I would agree he needs to be accountable for in an employment sense.

    The BDSM is nobody's business, but as one of the blogs referred to indicates, choking and blows to the head are more than 50 Shades stuff.

    Eve

    So far, I've deliberately avoided reading anything but the initial article on this*, so now that we are a few days into it all, are there any decent half-factual articles on-line about this? Could I get a link?

    * most 'celebrity' stuff seems personal to me and too much like voyerism and boring anyway, but I often enjoyed his interviews and thought he was a quite good interviewer. (Some of the above comments make me wonder if I wasn't discriminating enough.)

  93. #93

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    The BDSM crowd will no doubt be distancing themselves from this guy. The more you hear about him the more obvious it seems he does not practice BDSM. What he practices is his own form of sick physical and mental torture where he has no boundaries and his victims have no control over any of it. The guy definitely needs help. Seems like he's just one or two notches away from Paul Bernardo or Luka Magnotta.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  94. #94
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    No problem Jian. I heard there's lots of oilfield and construction jobs out in Alberta.

  95. #95

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    ^What makes you think that they would want to work along side him. The guy is toxic.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  96. #96
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    Just noting that he will now be jobless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    * most 'celebrity' stuff seems personal to me and too much like voyerism and boring anyway, but I often enjoyed his interviews and thought he was a quite good interviewer. (Some of the above comments make me wonder if I wasn't discriminating enough.)
    This is where I have my problem. Now, I wasn't a fan of this guy but I do enjoy another character on my soaps that has had difficult real-world problems. I don't follow personal lives if I can avoid it because it makes me feel squicky as someone who preserves her own privacy. I think it's OK to enjoy the interviews and for me to enjoy my soap without worrying about this.

    There is a trend that I deplore that says if a person is in a "celebrity" occupation that they owe their fans a share of their personal lives. I don't think it's that straightforward.

    On the other hand, CBC has a difficult problem as an employer. Apparently, it's been known for a while that his activities during employer sponsored events is questionable. In circles I ran in when I was younger and more social in the activist community, I knew about bad actors who did repeatedly did stuff that while not strictly reportable made me reluctant to know them in a social way. I suspect we're dealing with a situation like that here (though pounding someone's head with your fists even if she agreed to kiss you is criminal though hard to prove and prosecute). Clearly CBC was faced with a recent situation that was impossible to ignore or he was getting too brazen.

    It's the employment issue that I'm following because my life is different is a totally boring way than what is encouraged in my work culture. I avoid social events that would highlight this. Not always successfully.

    Eve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Yup as more details come to light sounds like this guy is just a sick SOB with anger issues and zero respect for women.
    but i thought "this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake."

    be offended! figure out why later...

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Yup as more details come to light sounds like this guy is just a sick SOB with anger issues and zero respect for women.
    but i thought "this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake."

    Shove the wink up your *** buddy. Dont take my a section of my post out of context.

    My full post was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Sounds like this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake.

    If it does turn out these relationships were non-consensual he deserves whats coming to him.
    Which is exactly what this turned out to be. A violent psycho who hits women. He used BDSM as an excuse. What he did wasnt close to BDSM. There was no prior consultation with these women. No consent. He beat the women. Period.
    youtube.com/BrothersGrim
    facebook.com/BrothersGrimMusic

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Yup as more details come to light sounds like this guy is just a sick SOB with anger issues and zero respect for women.
    but i thought "this guy is going to get thrown under the bus. The world doesn't understand BDSM. He will be painted a perv and burnt at the stake."

    At this point nothing described was BDSM and in fact members of the BDSM community have been speaking out saying just that. It's also telling that not one consensual partner has appeared to defend him.

    What has been described now from multiple independent sources is a pattern of using his position a celebrity to abuse his dates and get away with it.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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