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Thread: Downtown Office Tower Vacancies

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    ^The city should exert more restraint with schools and transit.

    Stop building sprawl schools (emptying out inner city schools). Stop extending transit service and improve core routes. They can even reduce the snow plow SLA for sprawl neighborhoods until they are fully built out. Then tell people that if they want a raise their family in a big house on the edge of the city, be prepared to spend their time, money and patience driving their kids around everywhere.

    Residents will have to make the decision between square footage or quality of life. Right now, most people just consider square footage and feel entitled to QoL improvements.
    The province builds schools, not the city. The city does exercise some control by zoning for a school in new neighbourhoods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    ^ That's always been the biggest disappointment for me with all these new office tower developments, that they have only resulted in lateral movement among existing downtown tenants instead of attracting more head offices from outside downtown and from other cities. True, some companies are now moving from the suburbs, but we've lost so many HOs to other cities over the past few decades and it's high time this trend was reversed. Though with the economy being what it is in this province, I'm not so hopeful that will happen.
    Cannot agree with you more about attraction of Head Offices. This is a major bone of contention with me. There's only so many small and medium-sized suburban businesses that will (or are able to) relocate their main offices downtown. Our sights as a city (and definitely EEDC) are much, MUCH too low. We may be the most passive city on the continent, hence why we are STILL being outcompeted by other markets on a horrendous level. Until excuses are no longer our "thing," we will always fail to retain (most) of our homegrown success stories, continue to lose the few remaining Head Offices we have left, and continue to NOT attract any Head Offices to our city (let alone downtown). Does common sense really need endless studies and half-assed excuses?

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    Head offices do not regularly move, if at all. The resources trying to land one are MUCH better spent supporting small and midsize firms to Edmonton and downtown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Head offices do not regularly move, if at all. The resources trying to land one are MUCH better spent supporting small and midsize firms to Edmonton and downtown.
    How successful has this approach been for Edmonton thus far? In the public realm, it doesn't appear to be doing much other than spotty successes here and there.
    Last edited by Think BIGGER; 05-09-2016 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #105
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    Cause it's easy? We have many local success stories, but certainly need to continue the push.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Head offices do not regularly move, if at all.
    And yet HOs have left Edmonton
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    The sun also rose this morning.
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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Downtown has to have an influx of more high-paying jobs if it wants to continue to grow its population (oh wait, downtown population declined?). Why would people want to live downtown if they can't work there? Who is going to fill up all the highrise condo farms and shop at downtown stores? Can't keep relying on your fellow urbanistas when they eventually bolt for the burbs to fill up their nests.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  10. #110
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    ^employment growth is critical, but not as much as growing our urban lifestyle offerings in general and we have been an excellent job of late, but much still to do. Institutional growth has been amazing and hopefully a sign of more to come. We do need to ensure that Downtown is as inviting as possible and must continue to work on safe, clean, interesting.
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    Why would a head office move here?
    There is no real reason.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Downtown has to have an influx of more high-paying jobs if it wants to continue to grow its population (oh wait, downtown population declined?). Why would people want to live downtown if they can't work there? Who is going to fill up all the highrise condo farms and shop at downtown stores? Can't keep relying on your fellow urbanistas when they eventually bolt for the burbs to fill up their nests.
    Why can't the downtown people work in those downtown stores, and if more of them are allowed, nightclubs and bars? Downtown can be the entertainment district for the whole city, it has an appeal then even to some people who don't work there, but also more employment opportunities because of those entertainment businesses.

    Dreaming about some major HQ moving to Edmonton, is just that, dreaming. But other cities would kill to have the type of highly profitable (until recently) mid size companies Edmonton does, that's where the money and opportunity lies, encouraging some of them into say, the B space downtown, would do, IMO, wonders for the core.
    Last edited by moahunter; 05-09-2016 at 05:39 PM.

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    Give financial incentives to companies to move here and they'll move here. Make downtown prestigious and they'll be more inclined to do so.

  14. #114

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    First we focus on retention, then we focus on growth.

    Retention means making the individuals themselves within companies want to stay here, it means amenities and safety, it means excitement. The arena is a great step in the right direction, and if we do it right, Northlands could be another one, and the old RAM and Rossdale Powerplant represent great strategic possibilities as well.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Give financial incentives to companies to move here and they'll move here. Make downtown prestigious and they'll be more inclined to do so.
    there are no financial incentives that will do that... rent is not a large enough component given the overall costs of operating a business to influence the decision. if it was you would see them lined up for all the effectively free class a space currently available in calgary.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  16. #116
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    ^bingo.

    We need to improve our attractive by having more direct flights, improve the quality of our 'lifestyle', ensure a quality and robust cultural scene and a high quality of life for families. That said, we also need to be cognizant that we are always going to be facing an uphill battle given our location and climate.
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    Here is a very abbreviated list of companies in the city. 65 of them. Any one of these could grow. That is what is needed, not futile attempts at bringing head offices that are already established elsewhere.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...ed_in_Edmonton

    see also

    http://www.profitguide.com/manage-gr...ompanies-89999

    http://www.profitguide.com/manage-gr...ompanies-68765

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^bingo.

    We need to improve our attractive by having more direct flights, improve the quality of our 'lifestyle', ensure a quality and robust cultural scene and a high quality of life for families. That said, we also need to be cognizant that we are always going to be facing an uphill battle given our location and climate.
    we also need to quite thinking that we face an uphill battle given our location and climate.

    revisit the weather reports all weekend for the eastern seaboard (and cancun!) as they move in to hurricane season.

    revisit the weather reports for the midwest during tornado season.

    try living through the water shortages in california during fire season.

    our ever apologetic approach to our weather is the biggest hurdle we face when it comes to our weather.

    when was the last time you heard austin say they're always going to be facing an uphill battle given their location or climate? and, for the record, their summers are probably more unbearable than our winters.

    when was the last time you heard any of the scandanavian countries apologise for their weather?

    as you noted, we need to improve what we can in terms of air direct flights and support things like the arena district and closing the muni and building the quarters and providing river valley access and adding the galleria to the arts district etc.

    we also need to support those industry sectors that are already here and that are as good as anywhere else in the world including construction and engineering and education and health care and banking and insurance and governance and charitable foundations... and, for all it's woes, the oil industry and everything that supports it is still far from a local business and the same could be said for mining and forestry. we should be world leaders in all of these areas as well as in agriculture where we need to expand our manufacturing, not just continuing to farm and ranch for others.

    if we really want to move to the next level, it will be because we're finally prepared to say "f*&^ the weather, it's actually pretty good here", not apologise for the weather.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Here is a very abbreviated list of companies in the city. 65 of them. Any one of these could grow. That is what is needed, not futile attempts at bringing head offices that are already established elsewhere.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...ed_in_Edmonton

    see also

    http://www.profitguide.com/manage-gr...ompanies-89999

    http://www.profitguide.com/manage-gr...ompanies-68765
    Many on the list of the fastest growing companies would never move downtown but I agree with the sentiment.

  20. #120

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    ^Totally agree Ken. I know many other people in London or Amsterdam, for example, that say Edmontonians go outside more than they do when the weather isn't perfect. We're not so different. We just historically have ignored our city in the winter, made it look doubty by not cleaning up garbage for 6 months of the year or ensuring our walkable streets are attractive year-round. These things go a long way to negating the impact of poor weather, which is quite infrequent some years. Other years, ya it's a challenge. But not so much more than many other cities.
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  21. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Here is a very abbreviated list of companies in the city. 65 of them. Any one of these could grow. That is what is needed, not futile attempts at bringing head offices that are already established elsewhere.
    There are a lot of companies you will never see on these lists as well. Either privately owned, or directly owned out of the US, which keep a very low profile, but make a lot of money. Edmonton is remarkably strong in mid-size companies, much stronger than Calgary, or probably anywhere else in Canada, with the possible exception of GTA. The thing is, these companies typically aren't interested in fancy offices - if anything, it often works against the image they have, and many even own their premises, or cheap long term lease, so no incentive to move.

    A classic example, of an Edmonton company which is a lot larger, but of similar ilk, would be Nilsson Bros, which operates out of a crappy strip mall.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 11:59 AM.

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^bingo.

    We need to improve our attractive by having more direct flights, improve the quality of our 'lifestyle', ensure a quality and robust cultural scene and a high quality of life for families. That said, we also need to be cognizant that we are always going to be facing an uphill battle given our location and climate.
    we also need to quite thinking that we face an uphill battle given our location and climate.

    revisit the weather reports all weekend for the eastern seaboard (and cancun!) as they move in to hurricane season.

    revisit the weather reports for the midwest during tornado season.

    try living through the water shortages in california during fire season.

    our ever apologetic approach to our weather is the biggest hurdle we face when it comes to our weather.

    when was the last time you heard austin say they're always going to be facing an uphill battle given their location or climate? and, for the record, their summers are probably more unbearable than our winters.

    when was the last time you heard any of the scandanavian countries apologise for their weather?

    as you noted, we need to improve what we can in terms of air direct flights and support things like the arena district and closing the muni and building the quarters and providing river valley access and adding the galleria to the arts district etc.

    we also need to support those industry sectors that are already here and that are as good as anywhere else in the world including construction and engineering and education and health care and banking and insurance and governance and charitable foundations... and, for all it's woes, the oil industry and everything that supports it is still far from a local business and the same could be said for mining and forestry. we should be world leaders in all of these areas as well as in agriculture where we need to expand our manufacturing, not just continuing to farm and ranch for others.

    if we really want to move to the next level, it will be because we're finally prepared to say "f*&^ the weather, it's actually pretty good here", not apologise for the weather.
    Strong agree Ken.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Concur Ken, but lifestyle and desirability is a MASSIVE amount of the decision as to why companies relocate, Edmonton has a very hard time competing on both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (...)
    if we really want to move to the next level, it will be because we're finally prepared to say "f*&^ the weather, it's actually pretty good here", not apologise for the weather.
    To quote a dear friend...let's take this one step further...

    It is not about apologizing for the weather, but it's more about designing for the weather we have. One thing that's always annoyed me about this area is that it constantly waxes for and designs for areas that are more San Diego than Sturgeon County.

    Winter happens. Embrace it. Our summers can be spectacular with the long days. Everyone I brought up during the summer thoroughly enjoys the long days. We need to design our commuting schedules, our road design, our buildings, and even our vacation scheduling around the reality that is our geographic location and climate. The truth is, you can survive winter better than you can survive a blistering Houston summer. We've just, for reasons that are easily explained, thrown everything at our summer and then vilified our winters.

    Our bigger issue is proximity to resources, flights, and major markets where the venture capital actually resides rather than our actual weather…that is just a lazy excuse. It's our own internal refusal to take a look at our inability to just celebrate who we really are and where we really live…confidence is sexy...
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  25. #125

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    Any comparisons to Austin or Houston should be tempered with the fact that Texas has no state tax and has been a significant migration target because of that.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Concur Ken, but lifestyle and desirability is a MASSIVE amount of the decision as to why companies relocate, Edmonton has a very hard time competing on both.
    maybe so IanO but lifestyle and desirability has f-all to do with weather.

    we need to learn how to compete - and with what - when it domes to lifestyle and desirability instead of using "we are always going to be facing an uphill battle given our location and climate" as an easy excuse for failure because it's the one thing we don't control.

    we might not control the weather but certainly control how we respond to it. we can use it an excuse for our failures or we can say "wait a minute, how many places in the world have more golf courses to cross country ski on in the winter or more outdoor skating rinks to enjoy?" What about ice fishing for those who can't afford bass boats or charters? What about cold weather testing for everything from tires to tents to outdoor gear?

    how would you like to try and host a birkebeiner or sell warming huts in san diego or orlando? we need to stop thinking about the deep freeze and silver skate festivals etc. as something we manage to do here in spite of the weather and start selling them as something only possible here because of the weather.
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    'maybe so IanO but lifestyle and desirability has f-all to do with weather.'

    Incorrect, VERY incorrect. The vast majority of people I know would not move to Edmonton for a job specifically due to our climate, ie. long, isolated, cold winter. The reality is that most people don't care about skating or skiing when they have to deal with 6months of ice, snow, darkness.

    We have done a much better job in using winter to our advantage, but to say that our climate/weather has no impact is the biggest lie that we can tell ourselves.

    We have to work with what we have, but also need to recognize and acknowledge that there are some rather harsh realities inherent with our location.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Any comparisons to Austin or Houston should be tempered with the fact that Texas has no state tax and has been a significant migration target because of that.
    apples and oranges...

    if you want to compare like that, you need to add the 2% in local jurisdiction sales taxes, you need to add the highest property taxes in the united states, you need to add the differential in the cost of securing health care and education... you also need to adjust for the capital gains taxes on housing appreciation along with the american deductability of mortgage interest.

    and while it's true that texas has no personal or corporate income tax, the state does assess the equivalent of a franchise tax on corporations that would also have to part of any overall analysis.
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  29. #129

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    If we make a city for the climate, climate will become a manageable minor concern.

    Copenhagen, Berlin, Montréal, Québec, Beijing, Seoul.

    Not the first thing people whine about.

    We need to stop copying LA design in things like Louise McKinney Park, and again, more ICE District/Rogers Place.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Here is a very abbreviated list of companies in the city. 65 of them. Any one of these could grow. That is what is needed, not futile attempts at bringing head offices that are already established elsewhere.
    There are a lot of companies you will never see on these lists as well. Either privately owned, or directly owned out of the US, which keep a very low profile, but make a lot of money. Edmonton is remarkably strong in mid-size companies, much stronger than Calgary, or probably anywhere else in Canada, with the possible exception of GTA. The thing is, these companies typically aren't interested in fancy offices - if anything, it often works against the image they have, and many even own their premises, or cheap long term lease, so no incentive to move.

    A classic example, of an Edmonton company which is a lot larger, but of similar ilk, would be Nilsson Bros, which operates out of a crappy strip mall.
    Agree 100%. There are lots of these types of companies in Edmonton who try to maintain a very low profile but are known within the industries that they operate in. They will not be the ones moving into the fancy digs downtown.

  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (...)
    if we really want to move to the next level, it will be because we're finally prepared to say "f*&^ the weather, it's actually pretty good here", not apologise for the weather.
    To quote a dear friend...let's take this one step further...

    It is not about apologizing for the weather, but it's more about designing for the weather we have. One thing that's always annoyed me about this area is that it constantly waxes for and designs for areas that are more San Diego than Sturgeon County
    I don't know if its by fluke or necessity that cities like Copenhagen, winter cities, built up dense. I think its more necessity, they needed shared heating systems, so they developed with buildings close together. Edmonton though, developed like you say, more like San Diego, north American suburban visions, and now pays the prices of being unfriendly climatically, because you can't just take a very short bike ride to work, its a long one. The city has to build inwards not outwards if it wants to face up to making more desirable the climate it exists in.

  32. #132

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    Indeed. I think Edmonton's biggest problem is the abundance of undeveloped and underdeveloped space. This city has practically everything, but so much of it is so far apart that it works against itself, and it doesn't need to be. It makes public transit harder to use, and the worst thing about winter is the poor roads and driving conditions - why are we insistent on building a city where we are forced to drive more and more? San Diego has all kinds of layered freeways (and summer pretty much year-round), so driving there is less of a chore. That city design makes bad sense for Edmonton.

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    Cause freeways solves our problem... let's continue to build out and freeway! Or, maybe, build within and make transit for efficient and effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Cause freeways solves our problem... let's continue to build out and freeway! Or, maybe, build within and make transit for efficient and effective.
    perhaps you missed the "That city design makes bad sense for Edmonton" conclusion to the post you're taking offense to?
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    It was not taking offence, it was reinforcing a better way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Any comparisons to Austin or Houston should be tempered with the fact that Texas has no state tax and has been a significant migration target because of that.
    So, coming from someone who lived in both...


    Don't let the "no income tax" fool you. They get their $$$, just like the no sales tax bit in Alberta doesn't necessarily mean there are not other ways to get the revenue.

    How about a 1-2% drive thru tax? Tax jurisdiction changes based on types of tires? Big utility bills. Service fees. ...

    While living in Houston was cheaper than some other cities...there was no shortage of ways that municipal and state government programs clawed back revenue from not having an actual income tax...
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  37. #137

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    ^property tax is they way they make their money, from 3 to 4% in most counties. So, on a typical Canadian 400k home, that would be in many counties $16,000 a year or $1,333 per month. Ouch. The good thing about property taxes from governments perspective, is they are unavoidable, own a nice home, you will pay more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Head offices do not regularly move, if at all. The resources trying to land one are MUCH better spent supporting small and midsize firms to Edmonton and downtown.
    I'll just touch on this one last time. Yes, this will certainly require a larger long-term investment-no arguments from me. What I am saying is that these Head Office jobs are typically high-paying, educated positions. Decision-making power is made where Head Offices are. As long as those decisions are made in another city (hence our competition), THEIR best interests are put first, not Edmonton's. Eventually most support services shift, and are hired out to companies local to those Head Offices(this is certainly happening now). These Head Offices are also very supportive of community groups and causes, which is huge for the community as a whole. What I'm trying to say is that some investments are worth the additional funding. Cheaper, faster, and/or easier is not always the best option. We need to be a proud city again, but we can't do it until we stop thinking about the now and start thinking about the upcoming generations of our city. I do certainly agree that we need to put much more energy into improving quality of life here with better EIA routes, Edmonton branding (NOT Capital Region crapola) and marketing, etc. Clearly this fires me up, but we can also agree to disagree.

  39. #139
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    Support and grow local firms.
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    Lots of good points. Sometimes I wonder if we have the right decision makers on council or city administration.
    i really hope we can overcome our low density and sprawl. We definitely have some opportunities with Blatchford and now Northlands, both with LRT access already or about to be built in. I still can't believe our population has dropped both downtown and Oliver in the past two years. I really want to see more density.

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    Put your money where your mouth is things only change if we make change.
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  42. #142

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    We can support homegrown, but homegrown has also left us for greener pastures. The ptoblem i find with our city is that there is not much cooperation and synergy amongst the business community; and, we lack infrastructures for businesses to thrive- air travel has been our biggest set back. How many corporates left our city because it was too difficult to travel where they need to be without time or monetary lost. It's nice to say we need corporates to move here, but what are we offering them- aside from monetary incentives-which we can only offer so much. This is where Calgary topped us. Their business community are united; they sponsor their local government to become our provincial leaders; their (our) provincial leaders in turn supports that city behind close doors- you could call it backroom dealing. The important question is, what are our leaders strategy to counter that? So far, i have not really seen much up until 10 years ago where Katz and the business community got together to strategized how downtown could be improved; the result is quite evident right now with the arena and ancillary developments. It is a great first step, but what are these leaders' long term plan? How are they mentoring future business leaders to continue the momentum?

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    I hear that Austin is one of the fast growing cities in America because of no state tax as well and downtown growth is looking good down there
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  44. #144
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    "The Texas state sales and use tax rate is 6.25%, but local taxing jurisdictions (cities, counties, special purpose districts, and transit authorities) may also impose sales and use tax up to 2% for a total maximum combined rate of 8.25%. "

    http://comptroller.texas.gov/taxinfo/local/

    "Texas has no state-level income taxes, although the Federal income tax still applies to income earned by Texas residents. There are only seven states nationwide that din't collect a state income tax - however, when a state has no income tax, it generally makes up for lost tax revenue with higher sales or property taxes."

    https://www.tax-brackets.org/texastaxtable

    Texas is 47/51 ranked in Property Taxes, has a a ton of cheap homes - those with real expensive property pay a LOT more

    https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...y-taxes/11585/

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/0...Property-Taxes


    There is zero safety net for citizens or concern for public healthcare and public education. So no need to tax more - its survival of the fittest = those with the biggest cheque book.

  45. #145

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    ^Texas has a brutal corporate tax system as well, franchise tax. It applies formulas at a gross level, which means that even companies in loss positions often face a large tax bill.

    They can attract the office towers though, because there is lots of population, there is direct pipeline access to the entire eastern seaboard for products, and from cushing for crude, some of the largest tank farm and refining capacity in the world, deep water port / tanker access to the world, and they have massive oil reserves on shore and offshore. Apache has just announced a huge find:

    http://www.usnews.com/news/business/...-in-west-texas


    DALLAS (AP) — A Houston driller is boasting of a big new oil and gas discovery in West Texas.


    Apache Corp. believes there could be 3 billion barrels of oil and 75 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in an area it calls Alpine High.


    The company announced its discovery Wednesday after two years of drilling in the largely undeveloped region.


    Apache shares gained nearly 7 percent.



    Apache said it's accumulated more than 300,000 acres and drilled 19 wells in Alpine High, a small part of the sweeping and energy-rich Permian Basin of Texas.


    CEO John Christmann says others have mistakenly overlooked the area.


    "It is a world-class resource play," Christmann said at a Barclays investor conference in New York. "This really is a giant onion that is going to take us years and years to peel back and uncover."
    Last edited by moahunter; 07-09-2016 at 05:07 PM.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Don't let the "no income tax" fool you. They get their $$$, just like the no sales tax bit in Alberta doesn't necessarily mean there are not other ways to get the revenue.

    How about a 1-2% drive thru tax? Tax jurisdiction changes based on types of tires? Big utility bills. Service fees. ...

    While living in Houston was cheaper than some other cities...there was no shortage of ways that municipal and state government programs clawed back revenue from not having an actual income tax...
    Exactly. This is a big difference between cities in Canada and the USA. The Municipalities Act in Alberta limits the taxation powers of a city, whereas in something like LA, all there needs to be is a ballot and boom, we've got the Measure R half-cent tax to fund LA Metro projects.

    The 'in your face' taxes may be less, but there can be all kinds of local taxes that you never know about and that can change from one jurisdiction (ie. LA County to Santa Monica to Culver City). There's also overall cost of living considerations as well. You probably don't want to know what my half of the rent in West LA is :P


    As far as weather goes, it *is* a factor, but I agree with Ken et al. that it comes down to not being apologetic about it, embracing it, and designing for it. One thing I desperately miss at the UofA is all the wonderful interior spaces to work and study. There's nothing like SUB and it's new renos at UCLA because you just go outside, but outside isn't necessarily the best place to study and work all the time.

    I for one am also kind of bored of the lack of any seasons in LA, and the ongoing dichotomy in indoor/outdoor temperatures. If it's 33 out, pack a sweater, because that coffee shop will be 18 inside. Anyways, random quick thought from northern Greece.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Don't let the "no income tax" fool you. They get their $$$, just like the no sales tax bit in Alberta doesn't necessarily mean there are not other ways to get the revenue.

    How about a 1-2% drive thru tax? Tax jurisdiction changes based on types of tires? Big utility bills. Service fees. ...

    While living in Houston was cheaper than some other cities...there was no shortage of ways that municipal and state government programs clawed back revenue from not having an actual income tax...
    Exactly. This is a big difference between cities in Canada and the USA. The Municipalities Act in Alberta limits the taxation powers of a city, whereas in something like LA, all there needs to be is a ballot and boom, we've got the Measure R half-cent tax to fund LA Metro projects.

    The 'in your face' taxes may be less, but there can be all kinds of local taxes that you never know about and that can change from one jurisdiction (ie. LA County to Santa Monica to Culver City). There's also overall cost of living considerations as well. You probably don't want to know what my half of the rent in West LA is :P


    As far as weather goes, it *is* a factor, but I agree with Ken et al. that it comes down to not being apologetic about it, embracing it, and designing for it. One thing I desperately miss at the UofA is all the wonderful interior spaces to work and study. There's nothing like SUB and it's new renos at UCLA because you just go outside, but outside isn't necessarily the best place to study and work all the time.

    I for one am also kind of bored of the lack of any seasons in LA, and the ongoing dichotomy in indoor/outdoor temperatures. If it's 33 out, pack a sweater, because that coffee shop will be 18 inside. Anyways, random quick thought from northern Greece.
    im going to guess 2000.00
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  48. #148

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    Paula Simons: Can downtown's 'magnet effect' fix an office glut?

    PAULA SIMONS, EDMONTON JOURNAL
    More from Paula Simons, Edmonton Journal
    Published on: October 3, 2016 | Last Updated: October 3, 2016 7:35 PM MDT

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    Downtown Edmonton Office Vacancy
    Edmonton Journal columnist Paula Simons comments on the downtown office vacancy in Edmonton
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    “We’re in for an interesting ride in the office market here.”

    That’s the assessment of David Young, executive vice-president and Edmonton managing director with CRBE Ltd.

    Assessment? More like an ironic understatement.

    Edmonton is about to see two big new downtown office complexes open: the Kelly Ramsey project in Rice Howard Way and the Edmonton Tower in Ice District. They’re the first two new towers in the downtown proper in decades.

    A third skyscraper, the Stantec Tower, is under construction.

    But they were all planned when things were booming. Now, with oil prices in the cellar, there are plenty of people worried about the possibility of an office glut.

    Certainly, the news from Calgary’s office canyons is enough to give one the heebie-jeebies.

    As the Financial Post reported Monday, office vacancy rates in Calgary’s downtown are above 22 per cent, with a projected rate of 26.4 per cent by 2018. Analysts are calling these the highest vacancy rates Calgary’s yet seen, worse even than in the wake of the National Energy Program, a glut that may take years to absorb.

    ...

    The upshot is that some of Calgary’s best new office blocks have large vacancies. In contrast, he foresees that most vacancies here will be in those older B and C class buildings.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...an-office-glut
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  49. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Paula Simons: Can downtown's 'magnet effect' fix an office glut?

    PAULA SIMONS, EDMONTON JOURNAL
    More from Paula Simons, Edmonton Journal
    Published on: October 3, 2016 | Last Updated: October 3, 2016 7:35 PM MDT

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    Downtown Edmonton Office Vacancy
    Edmonton Journal columnist Paula Simons comments on the downtown office vacancy in Edmonton
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    “We’re in for an interesting ride in the office market here.”

    That’s the assessment of David Young, executive vice-president and Edmonton managing director with CRBE Ltd.

    Assessment? More like an ironic understatement.

    Edmonton is about to see two big new downtown office complexes open: the Kelly Ramsey project in Rice Howard Way and the Edmonton Tower in Ice District. They’re the first two new towers in the downtown proper in decades.

    A third skyscraper, the Stantec Tower, is under construction.

    But they were all planned when things were booming. Now, with oil prices in the cellar, there are plenty of people worried about the possibility of an office glut.

    Certainly, the news from Calgary’s office canyons is enough to give one the heebie-jeebies.

    As the Financial Post reported Monday, office vacancy rates in Calgary’s downtown are above 22 per cent, with a projected rate of 26.4 per cent by 2018. Analysts are calling these the highest vacancy rates Calgary’s yet seen, worse even than in the wake of the National Energy Program, a glut that may take years to absorb.

    ...

    The upshot is that some of Calgary’s best new office blocks have large vacancies. In contrast, he foresees that most vacancies here will be in those older B and C class buildings.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...an-office-glut
    I suppose there is an argument to be made that the new buildings downtown will draw some tenants from suburban locations. We haven't had very many new buildings downtown over the years. In any event, yes things could be worse ... we could be Calgary.

  50. #150
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    per the following response, i had expected better of paula:

    So "Edmonton is about to see two big new downtown office complexes open: the Kelly Ramsey project in Rice Howard Way and the Edmonton Tower in Ice District. They’re the first two new towers in the downtown proper in decades."

    Decades? The last new office tower in downtown was completed less than five years ago in the fall/winter of 2011.

    The 625,000 sf EPCOR Tower at Station Lands is larger than the Kelly Ramsey Tower and the tallest building in Edmonton’s downtown core. While the Stantec Tower will eventually be taller, it’s office component will be quite a bit smaller than both the EPCOR Tower and the Kelly Ramsey Tower.

    EPCOR Tower is also home to Bear With Salmon, one of the largest and one of the most expensive privately commissioned stainless steel sculptures in North America, and the building’s public spaces and amenities – from a day care to an Oscar Peterson Limited Edition grand piano to curated sculpture and painting exhibitions and intimate interior and exterior seating and gathering spaces and water features – are truly open to the public, not just to tenants.

    Both the Kelly Ramsey Tower and the Stantec Tower will be welcome additions to the downtown core - as will the soon to be completed City of Edmonton Tower - and they are both truly exceptional buildings but they are not the pioneers in our market they were portrayed as.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  51. #151

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    Yeah that was quite the undeserved oversight. Buuuuut, that seems to be the editorial quality of our papers these days, unfortunately.

    Edit: She does say "downtown proper" which probably means does not include Epcor north of 104 Ave, but I feel like that's splitting hairs.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 04-10-2016 at 05:48 PM.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  52. #152

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    our news organizations are a joke. They fail to do any basic research for their articles... quality control is lacking big time.

    They report more non sense articles then they do of actual news. I couldnt imagine being a journalist when that consists of writing up the kardashians or finding stories to write about from reddit.

    They try and create viral stories that arent while trying to create fake out rage where there is none.

  53. #153
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    Agreed. So many social feel-good stories or not so feel good stories (guilt trip time!). I mean, how about some real f*cking news instead of the daily "we're gonna make you feel like sh1t because you have a healthy daughter" thing. I don't mind these stories once in a while but it seems a certain local newscast has upped the anti with this recently.

    I'm having a harder and harder time watching Global news.

  54. #154
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    It is obvious she meant to exclude EPCOR tower so she could say the first new towers built in decades. That is why she said downtown proper even though EPCOR is just across the avenue.

  55. #155

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    so your saying she purposely left it out so she could decieve her readers who dont know better?

    Wtf is downtown proper to the average person?

    I sounds like a lack of due diligence on her story..

  56. #156
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    That is what I am saying.

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Yeah that was quite the undeserved oversight. Buuuuut, that seems to be the editorial quality of our papers these days, unfortunately.

    Edit: She does say "downtown proper" which probably means does not include Epcor north of 104 Ave, but I feel like that's splitting hairs.
    She's not splitting hairs, she's quoting marketing brochures.

    If you want to look at arbitrary demarcation lines, the historical centre of downtown was always centred on the main CN Station which was north of 104th Avenue. That was reinforced when the CN Tower was built on the station’s original footprint and became both Edmonton’s first downtown highrise and western Canada’s tallest building.

    As well as EPCOR Tower, currently situated on the north side of 104th Avenue you will find Grant MacEwan University, Rogers Place Arena, Edmonton’s downtown Community Rink, the Katz Group head offices and the new casino, the Royal Alberta Museum, the Brownlee Building and of course the CN Tower as well as the proposed Galleria Project, all of which are directly across the street from the Law Courts and from City Hall and the Ice District and the warehouse district...

    Edmonton's downtown plan extends north to 105th Avenue - and has for decades - and I don't think there's any plans to change those boundaries anytime soon regardless of what Paula writes in her column.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  58. #158

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    It's definitely a questionable post by Paula to skim over the EPCOR Tower based on what side of the street it falls on.

    Not the least reason being that EPCOR Tower's cascade effect on the market:

    • EPCOR moves from First and Jasper
    • Intuit moves from suburbs
    • Jacobs moves from suburbs to First and Jasper
    • Williams moves from their stump to First and Jasper
    • Williams' stump gets repurposed


    is obviously the best predictor of the effect the two 2016ers will have.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  59. #159

    Default Downtown Office Tower Vacancies

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It's definitely a questionable post by Paula to skim over the EPCOR Tower based on what side of the street it falls on.

    Not the least reason being that EPCOR Tower's cascade effect on the market:

    • EPCOR moves from First and Jasper
    • Intuit moves from suburbs
    • Jacobs moves from suburbs to First and Jasper
    • Williams moves from their stump to First and Jasper
    • Williams' stump gets repurposed


    is obviously the best predictor of the effect the two 2016ers will have.
    I agree with the cascade comment in general, but Jacobs had a number of floors in Highfield Place on 106 St and 100 Ave which I think they vacated. Perhaps they also had suburban space too, but I don't think the move was from only suburban space.

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    I sympathize with journalists these days considering the extreme workload they're given in the unacceptable amount of time to complete their stories. I think this was just a mistake of grabbing (as Ken said) some promotional brochures and bypassing common knowledge of downtown projects. Epcor was huge; I remember how pumped people were and there was; at the time, concern that the market couldn't support such a large project as Stationlands - but our vacancy rates aren't too bad. I expect this will further encourage B and C class buildings to upgrade and make themselves more attractive to potential suburbian clients. Also; as mass transit becomes an equitable solution to more areas of the city (particularly the Westside) it'll incentivize to centralize.

    I probably just spouted off rhetoric having not read the entire thread except the last couple comments - but such is how I see it. I don't really expect the looming glut that people are speaking of.

  61. #161

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    ^ I don't mean ill of Paula, but she can have that angle for a future piece if she wants. Same thing with the 'ATB cascade'. It really is happening.

    ^^ yes, from Highfield as well. Highfield has yet to recover, but to me that's one area crying out for residential if Highfield doesn't recover. Just a personal Edmontopia thing. That area is a dead zone after hours.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  62. #162

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    The only factual discrepancy in the article is Cantor's with the building of the EPCOR tower in 2011. And even then, what's the public art in EPCOR got to do with office vacancy rates downtown? The rest of you are just piling on.

    Trust me JB, Paula is not looking to you for column "angles".

    The cheerleading here is just so friggin' tiresome.

  63. #163

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    http://www.enbridgecentre.ca

    For fun, check out the first line in the body. "The Kelly Ramsey Tower is downtown Edmonton’s first new Financial District Tower in 25 years. To grow your business and attract the best of the best, this is the place to be."

    Fun fact, this particular building leased more space in the past six months than Epcor Tower did in the past six years, without a bear, a salmon or a piano. Based on a certain someone's numerous online postings in the past 24 hours, perhaps a teeny tiny violin would have been more appropriate.

  64. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    The only factual discrepancy in the article is Cantor's with the building of the EPCOR tower in 2011. And even then, what's the public art in EPCOR got to do with office vacancy rates downtown? The rest of you are just piling on.

    Trust me JB, Paula is not looking to you for column "angles".

    The cheerleading here is just so friggin' tiresome.
    ???
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  65. #165

  66. #166
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    That is so cheap and ridiculous.

  67. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    I sympathize with journalists these days considering the extreme workload they're given in the unacceptable amount of time to complete their stories. I think this was just a mistake of grabbing (as Ken said) some promotional brochures and bypassing common knowledge of downtown projects. Epcor was huge; I remember how pumped people were and there was; at the time, concern that the market couldn't support such a large project as Stationlands - but our vacancy rates aren't too bad. I expect this will further encourage B and C class buildings to upgrade and make themselves more attractive to potential suburbian clients. Also; as mass transit becomes an equitable solution to more areas of the city (particularly the Westside) it'll incentivize to centralize.

    I probably just spouted off rhetoric having not read the entire thread except the last couple comments - but such is how I see it. I don't really expect the looming glut that people are speaking of.
    It's a Paula "pile on" Maybe she revised the article, but in the version I read it was totally clear what area of downtown she was referring to and that it did not include EPCOR, so it seemed she put out all the facts even if some might dispute her criteria. I can understand why EPCOR might be excluded as there was not (and is still not) a lot of office space development north of 104 Ave, but I didn't feel she meant to diminish it or ignore it. I can understand psychologically the current developments of the Kelly Ramsey, the old Staples site/parking lot and ICE district seem important because they were empty or underused spaces closer to the heart of downtown.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    I sympathize with journalists these days considering the extreme workload they're given in the unacceptable amount of time to complete their stories. I think this was just a mistake of grabbing (as Ken said) some promotional brochures and bypassing common knowledge of downtown projects. Epcor was huge; I remember how pumped people were and there was; at the time, concern that the market couldn't support such a large project as Stationlands - but our vacancy rates aren't too bad. I expect this will further encourage B and C class buildings to upgrade and make themselves more attractive to potential suburbian clients. Also; as mass transit becomes an equitable solution to more areas of the city (particularly the Westside) it'll incentivize to centralize.

    I probably just spouted off rhetoric having not read the entire thread except the last couple comments - but such is how I see it. I don't really expect the looming glut that people are speaking of.
    It's a Paula "pile on" Maybe she revised the article, but in the version I read it was totally clear what area of downtown she was referring to and that it did not include EPCOR, so it seemed she put out all the facts even if some might dispute her criteria. I can understand why EPCOR might be excluded as there was not (and is still not) a lot of office space development north of 104 Ave, but I didn't feel she meant to diminish it or ignore it. I can understand psychologically the current developments of the Kelly Ramsey, the old Staples site/parking lot and ICE district seem important because they were empty or underused spaces closer to the heart of downtown.
    total inventory in the financial district is about 11.5 million sf and approximately 1 million sf of that is north of 104 avenue so you're right, she certainly did use "her criteria". that doesn't make her criteria or her conclusions either objective or accurate.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  69. #169

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    I simply can't see the point of omitting it, although I give her the benefit of the doubt for the lack of support and deadlines. Not criticising her.

    You can't see the office market without it. It's close to 30% of our AA market by itself, and the best completed tower we have in nearly every regard I can think. It raised the standards by a quantum leap at a crucial moment, and arguably set the course for ICE District and Kelly Ramsey. It helped people believe in the market and the City.

    (And, its opening and effects are the ideal model for "what happens when you open a new top-end tower in Edmonton?")
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  70. #170
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    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...m-the-downtown
    The provincial government will be moving 450 of its employees from their current offices on newly refurbished Capital Boulevard — and at least half of those employees will be relocated outside of downtown.

    The decision, which will result in 130,000 square feet being added to Edmonton’s growing downtown vacancy problem, is frustrating some commercial landlords.

    “We’ve just got some vibrancy here,” said Percy Woods, president of the Edmonton Building Owners and Managers Association, referring to the new uptick in downtown’s vibe.

    “We’re just getting things going and the government says we’re gone,” he said, noting a vibrant downtown benefits all parts of a city and boosts its global image. “Government should be downtown to support the vibrancy of downtown.”

    The vacancy rate in Edmonton’s office towers is now at 13 per cent and is expected to climb as new towers are completed in the midst of the struggling economy.

    Infrastructure Minister Brian Mason said the decision to pull out of the Centre West building is part of a long-term effort to rationalize the use of office space by consolidating staff into other leased and owned spaces as each lease comes up for renewal.

    Half of the 450 employees will move to the Neil Crawford Centre, located near 113 Street and Belgravia Road. The other half will move to buildings near the legislature downtown, he said.

    Mason said his first order of business is not downtown vibrancy, but ensuring that provincial employees are in good work spaces, and managing lease costs. “There’s no attempt to abandon the downtown of Edmonton.”
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Gotta fight that deficit.

  72. #172

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    Epic awful.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  73. #173

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    Mason said his first order of business is not downtown vibrancy, but ensuring that provincial employees are in good work spaces, and managing lease costs.
    Amen.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    If there is vacant space in the Crawford center to house 225 workers then it should be used. Too bad for downtown. It doesn't make sense to pay for vacant space. Long term though, if the space in the Crawford is suitable for the U of A then it should be switched.

  75. #175

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    To save money, they should consolidate, not fragment further. (like the City, like Enbridge, like ATB, like Stantec.)

    To save money, they should build when prices are low. (Like The Winspear, like EIA, like The Pearl.)

    To save money, they should create a nicer environment (City) where they can get top talent without having to overpay. (Like the arena, like the Citadel, like the Calgary LRT, like ICE District. )

    To make money, they should make an attractive environment for people to pay taxes. (Unlike everything Ralph Klein did to Edmonton.)

    Clearly.

    People who think one single move ahead in chess are the easiest to slaughter. Because they're stupid. Not the people we should want 'advising' governments.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  76. #176
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    That article is junk. Why didn't they reference how much square feet of office space the Province currently occupies downtown? The reality is that the province has to do whats right for its staff and departments.

  77. #177

    Default Downtown Office Tower Vacancies

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    That article is junk. Why didn't they reference how much square feet of office space the Province currently occupies downtown? The reality is that the province has to do whats right for its staff and departments.
    I don't see a problem with questioning the Provincial governments actions given that there is a lot of office space available in downtown Edmonton and soon there will be more. I don't think just calling an article "junk" is a very strong argument. By the way how many square feet of office space does the Province currently occupy downtown?

    Yes, you may get some cost savings from cheaper office space in less central locations, but that may also require more travel time and other costs involving coordinating people in different locations. We have had a Provincial government that has tried to operate on the cheap when it comes to Edmonton for years - sadly I think that mentality may still be entrenched in some in the bureaucracy.

    Sometimes the cheapest option can be more costly in the long run - as the old saying goes "penny wise, pound foolish".

  78. #178
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    I agree, the article is junk.

    Centre West (CW) is a dump, yet the Province leased almost the entire building, if not the entire building. Probably the worst office building I've been in, in downtown Edmonton. There was always at least one elevator down, if not two, whenever I went there for a meeting. I'm not surprised the Province isn't renewing the lease there. A lot of IT infrastructure is located down in Neil Crawford (NC) and I suspect that most of the IT staff from CW will be moving down to NC. It makes sense from an HR perspective. The other half of the staff (a lot of HR) will be moving to space closer to the legislature, which probably means the Federal Building/Park Plaza, etc, as they have slowly began to utilize that space more and more. Communications/PAB moved into the Fed Building last year and that would mean that there is more space in Park Plaza.

    Human Services has been and is going through a massive reorganization, so I suspect there will be further consolidation since that ministry has been spread out for years since it was made a 'super ministry' by the PC's. Accommodations/Infrastructure never caught up and is only beginning to now.

    I'm not sure where the notion of the Government operating on the cheap in Edmonton came from. If anything, the Government has become more frugal in the past 5 years. The external hiring freeze has been ongoing for about 3 years now and is widely known, and most positions that become vacant these days are not filled from what I've heard. There is definitely a push for attrition, no more discretionary spending on conferences and crap like that, and the revised contract rules have been in place for a while now of no sole sourcing anything over $10,000. Mind you, I'm speaking more toward the public service here than what the sitting Government chooses to spend money on.

    A lot of office space is occupied by the Province downtown west of 106th Street and south of Jasper Ave to 109th Street. Labour and Municipal Affairs lease a bunch in Commerce Place, Health is largely in Telus/ATB. The Province is still probably one of, if not the largest leaseholders of office space in downtown Edmonton, and I don't think letting the lease run out on one building downtown is going to change that, when you are retaining half the staff downtown in another building, and reallocating staff elsewhere for efficiency. The media does love to sensationalize things, though.
    Last edited by Moodib; 17-10-2016 at 12:08 PM.

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    ^

    we will have to agree to disagree on whether the article is "junk" or not but some of the assumptions in your quote are in error and shouldn't stand.

    all of the elevators have been completely replaced - cabs, cable, controllers - in the past year on a programmed schedule which is why you would have found them out of service, not down.

    the building has had it's chiller, it's boiler, it's roof and numerous other capital upgrades completed by the current owner.

    as for the tenant spaces (which includes the lobbies and corridors and washrooms in a single tenant building), if it looks like a dump perhaps that's because the tenant has consistently elected to take it's cash tenant improvement allowances from the landlord in the form of free rent instead of having it spent as intended.

    and yes, there may well be some infrastructure at neil crawford centre that is underutilized, but it's still infrastructure that should never have been built in the first place and that is still better off being given to the u of a than being rationalized.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  80. #180

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    ^ 100% agree. Give Neil Crawford to advanced education. Consolidate the Government Downtown.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    we will have to agree to disagree on whether the article is "junk" or not but some of the assumptions in your quote are in error and shouldn't stand.

    all of the elevators have been completely replaced - cabs, cable, controllers - in the past year on a programmed schedule which is why you would have found them out of service, not down.

    the building has had it's chiller, it's boiler, it's roof and numerous other capital upgrades completed by the current owner.

    as for the tenant spaces (which includes the lobbies and corridors and washrooms in a single tenant building), if it looks like a dump perhaps that's because the tenant has consistently elected to take it's cash tenant improvement allowances from the landlord in the form of free rent instead of having it spent as intended.

    and yes, there may well be some infrastructure at neil crawford centre that is underutilized, but it's still infrastructure that should never have been built in the first place and that is still better off being given to the u of a than being rationalized.
    Ken - you're also making assumptions. The elevators being down were prior to the renovations, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

    The IT infrastructure at Neil Crawford/JG has been there for years. It isn't new. I'm talking IT backbone for the entire GoA, not a couple of network switches. This isn't stuff that can simply be moved and handed over to Advanced Ed. I don't mean staff space, I mean capital IT equipment. We're speaking to different types of infrastructure in our posts and you misunderstood the point I was making.

    Your comments are also in error, but only due to lack of context on my part.
    Last edited by Moodib; 17-10-2016 at 01:41 PM. Reason: clarification

  82. #182

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    I think if the elevators were failing before they were fixed should hardly be material to what actions are taken after they're fixed.

    But don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to advocate the Government remain in antiquated building elevators, nor much less in antiquated building configurations.

    The time is perfect for them to move out of such...

    ... into an uncompromisingly efficient new configuration.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    we will have to agree to disagree on whether the article is "junk" or not but some of the assumptions in your quote are in error and shouldn't stand.

    all of the elevators have been completely replaced - cabs, cable, controllers - in the past year on a programmed schedule which is why you would have found them out of service, not down.

    the building has had it's chiller, it's boiler, it's roof and numerous other capital upgrades completed by the current owner.

    as for the tenant spaces (which includes the lobbies and corridors and washrooms in a single tenant building), if it looks like a dump perhaps that's because the tenant has consistently elected to take it's cash tenant improvement allowances from the landlord in the form of free rent instead of having it spent as intended.

    and yes, there may well be some infrastructure at neil crawford centre that is underutilized, but it's still infrastructure that should never have been built in the first place and that is still better off being given to the u of a than being rationalized.
    Ken - you're also making assumptions. The elevators being down were prior to the renovations, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

    The IT infrastructure at Neil Crawford/JG has been there for years. It isn't new. I'm talking IT backbone for the entire GoA, not a couple of network switches. This isn't stuff that can simply be moved and handed over to Advanced Ed. I don't mean staff space, I mean capital IT equipment. We're speaking to different types of infrastructure in our posts and you misunderstood the point I was making.

    Your comments are also in error, but only due to lack of context on my part.
    emphasis added...

    for additional clarity and context from my perspective ( ):

    a. the elevators (including controllers and cables and software etc., not just the cabs) weren't replaced because the old ones were working really well.

    b. the timing on things like elevator replacements is pretty much set by the tenant, not the landlord, under an ai lease.

    as for infrastructure at neil crawford centre, i'm well aware that infrastructure refers to more than just occupied spaces. as for it infrastructure, i'm also pretty sure that virtually none of the it infrastructure in place 10 years ago exists there today and i'm pretty sure that virtually none of the it infrastructure in place today will be there 10 years from now. as to where the inevitable replacements and upgrades for that it infrastructure are located, i'm also pretty sure they need to be in secure premises with supernet access, they don't necessarily have to be at neil crawford centre.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  84. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Moodib View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    we will have to agree to disagree on whether the article is "junk" or not but some of the assumptions in your quote are in error and shouldn't stand.

    all of the elevators have been completely replaced - cabs, cable, controllers - in the past year on a programmed schedule which is why you would have found them out of service, not down.

    the building has had it's chiller, it's boiler, it's roof and numerous other capital upgrades completed by the current owner.

    as for the tenant spaces (which includes the lobbies and corridors and washrooms in a single tenant building), if it looks like a dump perhaps that's because the tenant has consistently elected to take it's cash tenant improvement allowances from the landlord in the form of free rent instead of having it spent as intended.

    and yes, there may well be some infrastructure at neil crawford centre that is underutilized, but it's still infrastructure that should never have been built in the first place and that is still better off being given to the u of a than being rationalized.
    Ken - you're also making assumptions. The elevators being down were prior to the renovations, but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

    The IT infrastructure at Neil Crawford/JG has been there for years. It isn't new. I'm talking IT backbone for the entire GoA, not a couple of network switches. This isn't stuff that can simply be moved and handed over to Advanced Ed. I don't mean staff space, I mean capital IT equipment. We're speaking to different types of infrastructure in our posts and you misunderstood the point I was making.

    Your comments are also in error, but only due to lack of context on my part.
    emphasis added...

    for additional clarity and context from my perspective ( ):

    a. the elevators (including controllers and cables and software etc., not just the cabs) weren't replaced because the old ones were working really well.

    b. the timing on things like elevator replacements is pretty much set by the tenant, not the landlord, under an ai lease.

    as for infrastructure at neil crawford centre, i'm well aware that infrastructure refers to more than just occupied spaces. as for it infrastructure, i'm also pretty sure that virtually none of the it infrastructure in place 10 years ago exists there today and i'm pretty sure that virtually none of the it infrastructure in place today will be there 10 years from now. as to where the inevitable replacements and upgrades for that it infrastructure are located, i'm also pretty sure they need to be in secure premises with supernet access, they don't necessarily have to be at neil crawford centre.
    While it is an older building that could use some visual improvements, I didn't get the sense from the article that the building was run down or the landlord was not being good/flexible. I am not saying the government doesn't have good reasons to move, but there remains a bit of a mystery here.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^
    and yes, there may well be some infrastructure at neil crawford centre that is underutilized, but it's still infrastructure that should never have been built in the first place and that is still better off being given to the u of a than being rationalized.
    Would the university even be interested in the Neil Crawford Centre were the province to offer them the building?

    The J.G. O'Donoghue and Neil Crawford buildings have been in their current location for 30 years. The OS Longman building even longer. From a client service standpoint, these buildings are occupied by ministries (Agriculture and Infrastructure) that are best located outside the Downtown.

  86. #186

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    Does the Neil Crawford Centre still have that lovely atrium with the sloped planting wall that was popular for wedding photos?

    Waaaaay back I put a PC in the parking garage to handle swipe-in/outs.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    the buildings are a lot newer than much of the university's current inventory...

    pretty sure not everyone would agree with your assessment that agriculture and - even more particularly - alberta infrastructure are best located outside the downtown. the legislature is downtown. mla's offices are downtown. the largest part of ai's portfolio - owned and non-owned - in the region is probably downtown (particularly if you exclude neil crawford centre itself) and most of the largest users of our infrastructure throughout the province (i.e. alberta health) are downtown.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Does the Neil Crawford Centre still have that lovely atrium with the sloped planting wall that was popular for wedding photos?

    Waaaaay back I put a PC in the parking garage to handle swipe-in/outs.
    it's still there along with the recently refurbished koi pond. the subsidized cafeteria is still there as well as there's nothing else remotely walkable in the area.

    i'm not sure with current sign-in security requirements if it's still as accessible/popular for wedding photos.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    I worked for a farm organization way back when Agriculture was based out of the Annex downtown. There was much rejoicing in the farming community when the department relocated to the J.G. O'Donoghue building.

    Municipalities (especially the smaller ones that lack in-house expertise) are major clients of the Infrastructure department. I'm sure they appreciate the free onsite parking as well.

    These buildings have the best of both worlds as they are located near the South Campus LRT station, and so are also convenient for staff and visitors who take public transit.

    The assumption that most staff would prefer to be downtown is just that, an assumption. Personally, I love that our office is downtown as I live centrally, but many of our staff and volunteers think differently. A number of non-profits are moving out of Downtown at least partly because of the escalating cost of parking for their staff, clients, volunteers and visitors. The 124 Street or 111 Avenue areas (which are still fairly central) seem to be popular relocation alternatives.
    Last edited by East McCauley; 17-10-2016 at 07:15 PM.

  90. #190
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    Vegreville case processing centre moving to Edmonton
    http://globalnews.ca/news/3030312/ve...impacted-town/

    About time - opening this office in Vegreville instead of a large city (which will always have a bigger influx of immigrants) has always reeked of Mulroney-era PC pork barrelling to me.

    I'm guessing they are moving to Canada Place?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  91. #191

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    ^ I don't know, I think Canada Place is jammed. Downtown isn't though, they'll find something, and no matter how fragmented it could be, it would be nothing compared to leaving it in Vegreville.

    Wish the Government of Alberta could see this.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Looking forward to the round-table discussion and working group later this week to address this issue and come up with some creative solutions.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee
    ^ I don't know, I think Canada Place is jammed. Downtown isn't though, they'll find something, and no matter how fragmented it could be, it would be nothing compared to leaving it in Vegreville.


    I saw mention elsewhere that Canada Place's ownership will be putting a couple 100k ft "renovations" out for pricing in the next short while, with one of them being related to the Vegreville relocation.

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    Interesting morning session held by EEDC/COE hosted by Qualico/Epcor Tower in their impressive conference centre I must say, on how to combat rising office vacancies and looking for creative or innovative strategies.


    https://twitter.com/IanOyeg
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    Lots of interesting discussion and happenings behind the scenes. Curious to see what shakes out.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Lots of interesting discussion and happenings behind the scenes. Curious to see what shakes out.

    From this ?

    Precious little, Top_Dawg can tell you.

    Those who can, do.
    Those who can't, discuss.


  97. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Lots of interesting discussion and happenings behind the scenes. Curious to see what shakes out.
    New towers? Companies moving?

    Details Ian, DETAILS!

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    Sorry guys, gotta respect privacy and information.
    www.decl.org

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    Nobody will ever know you told us on here.

  100. #200

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    Quite a few opportunities for renewal out there. Especially interested what happens to Chancery Hall and the CN Tower.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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