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Thread: Alberta Election - reaction from the right to NDP win

  1. #201

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    "In 2013, miners pulled a 35.8-carat gem from the open pit Victor mine. As a rough uncut diamond it was about the size of a nickel. Once cut and polished, it turned into a dazzling multi-million dollar 12.08 carat jewel. (De Beers)"
    CBC

    De Beers got the multi-million dollar diamond. Ontario got the nickel.
    De Beers has the mine and Ontario got the shaft?

    In Alberta the oil companies get the profits. We get toxic tailings.
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    Ontario also received income tax from the workers, corporate taxes would depend on the amortization of the mine. It would take a few years to pay off the initial construction costs.

  3. #203

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    ^Bingo, its the same with oil sands. You can't realistically expect royalties, before the thing is making any money. If you demand that, it just doesn't get built. Look for example at the huge struggles BC is having right now with their LNG terminal proposals, which are competiting with proposals in Oregon, and Texas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    And Ontario for example is still $260B in debt and rising.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12...n_6296980.html

    Thanks to Dalton and his crew at Queens Park.
    Yes. Dalton and Wynne has been screwing with their oil and gas royalty structure for years after they took over from Mike Harris who expertly managed their economy and produced massive surpluses....


    Oh wait...
    Maybe not oil and gas, but they have diamonds, which brought in $226 (not 226k, or $226M) of royalties recently.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/diam...ario-1.3062006
    Sounds like one of those setups where they get a complete tax rebate until they've paid off in the initial investment. Interesting they chose to keep everything secret though.

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  5. #205

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    ^I agree, its probably fair, they still get all the tax on the salaries of the workers and similar, just like our government has all those 100k earning truck drivers in the oil sands. But the secrecy in Ontario is ridiculous.

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    It may not be the Ontario government's choice, De Beers is one of the most secretive companies because of some (hopefully past) activities such as price fixing.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers#Legal_issues

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ I don't mind a pst as long as anyone making $50K or more pay it. The rest of us should get a 100% rebate.
    Socialism!
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    Bill Gates just launched a devastating attack on the right-wing idea that corporation taxes kill innovation
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idealistic Pragmatist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ I don't mind a pst as long as anyone making $50K or more pay it. The rest of us should get a 100% rebate.
    Socialism!
    The Alberta NDP's should feel right at home with Socialism.
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  10. #210
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    I'm no expert but, when you get a 250% R&D tax relief who needs venture capital.
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  11. #211

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    Ideally, you want to start getting the royalties when the extraction begins, not years or decades later or not at all. If you sold your car you'd expect to get paid right away and not when the buyer finishes his garage or starts working or some other twist. However, mixing up the accounting to get a project going, a deal done, may make sense but whenever a seller does such things he/she is likely assuming new risks to get the deal done and so should build in a higher final return for taking on those risks. That often means the buyer is working him or isn't on the soundest financial footing in the frist place. (No different than people selling their homes and taking payment on non-standard terms.) Whenever it's not cash up front then you need to look for some synergies or greater gains to offset the risk of a clean arms-length deal.

    Governments should regularly act more like they did in the 2009 crisis, demanding direct common equity plus cumulative preferred equity in return for loans, subsidies, etc. Now if you're government is in a weak position maybe it will take a substandard return but you really have to wonder why any government with intergenerational responsibilities would be so desperate to develop a resource that would likely only have ever higher future values.
    Last edited by KC; 18-05-2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    Opinion: Sky’s not falling after all
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/opini...180/story.html

    As Alberta’s government changes hands for the first time in almost 44 years, some commentators are provoking “the anticipation of regret,” with suggestions that the new government caucus doesn’t have what it takes to provide good government. As someone who was an insider on both sides of the last changeover, I suggest that Albertans patiently wait for real outcomes instead of adopting (or promoting) fearful anticipation.

    My perspective is the result of personal experience. I was Peter Lougheed’s research assistant while he led the Opposition. I ran, and was elected, when the Progressive Conservative Party first formed the government in 1971. I was there to work with the first PC cabinet, in the first PC government caucus.

    I remember very clearly some commentators suggesting the post-’71 PC caucus didn’t have the makings of a competent cabinet, and was not up to providing effective government. I can remember the caucus being disparaged because of the vocations represented in it.
    There are at least three things wrong with this kind of criticism. First, it is essentially undemocratic. Democracy is not government by philosopher-kings, or technocratic elites, or monetizing self-selected elites. Democracy is government by a representative cross-section of the entire community, and I argue that the current NDP caucus is more representative of the community as a whole than was the recent PC slate
    Second, the call for “expertise” and “experience” clearly misunderstands (or misrepresents) the role of the government caucus, and the cabinet. Ministers shouldn’t be running departments — a professional and non-partisan public service should be doing that. The politician’s role, sitting alone in the minister’s office, or sitting around the cabinet or caucus table, is to build and manage relationships, see possibilities and recognize dead ends, establish public policy priorities, play a role in allocating resources, always with a view to doing well for all the people of the province.
    Third, in turbulent and uncertain times, it is impossible to know what expertise and capability will serve Alberta well for the next four years. The people who are putting a premium on “expertise” are the people who believe that the future is going to be “more of the same.” It won’t be.
    David King is a former Alberta MLA (1971-86) and a former minister of education and minister of technology, research and telecommunications.
    Really good perspective
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  13. #213

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    Some negative media spin fitting their dogma.

    Note how he headline states the position as fact ("she’s making it worse") the author immediately hedges in discussion ("The risk is...").



    Alberta premier Rachel Notley didn’t start the oil shock crisis, but she’s making it worse

    Claudia Cattaneo | June 16, 2015


    http://business.financialpost.com/ne..._lsa=b861-0eef

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    Notley as of yet hasn't decided what to do with a oil royalty review, making the oil patch nervous.
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  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Notley as of yet hasn't decided what to do with a oil royalty review, making the oil patch nervous.
    It's emotional hype.

    It's one cost of many costs that businesses face, so anyone freaking out by this should not be managing a business. Though the "freaking out" does sometimes effectively manage to spread panic and fear.


    As I've said:

    Look at the movement of oil prices over the past 10-15 years.

    Look at the changes in corporate tax rates over the past 10-15 years.

    Look at the changes in labour costs over the past 10-15 years.

    Look at the changes in the value of the dollar over the past 10-15 years.

    Look at the changes in transportation, pipeline access, etc. and other issues over the past 10-15 years ...



    ~
    Last edited by KC; 16-06-2015 at 02:52 PM.

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    ^ All on solid foundation but gone are the days $100 oil. Imo, oil producers are reacting more to that then Notley's proposed review.

    Is Notley in favour of the Northern Gateway pipeline? I can't remember what her stance is on that. It's probably in their pre election platform somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ All on solid foundation but gone are the days $100 oil. Imo, oil producers are reacting more to that then Notley's proposed review.

    Is Notley in favour of the Northern Gateway pipeline? I can't remember what her stance is on that. It's probably in their pre election platform somewhere.
    Notley is not in favour of Northern Gateway on the basis there is too much opposition for it to go ahead. I their statement was they support pipelines where there is a realistic chance of them being built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ All on solid foundation but gone are the days $100 oil. Imo, oil producers are reacting more to that then Notley's proposed review.

    Is Notley in favour of the Northern Gateway pipeline? I can't remember what her stance is on that. It's probably in their pre election platform somewhere.
    Her position was that she's doubtful it will ever happen because of the resistance by various First Nations bands along it's route, as well as the BC government and people, and that Alberta would be better served directing it's efforts elsewhere. I don't think she ever said she was opposed to it in principle, but the practical realities of it make it very difficult to ever see it happening.

    I think that's a pretty realistic assessment.

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    ^ These FN bands have been bought off by foreign special interest groups. Its been happening for years:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-canadian-oil

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...light-on-facts
    Last edited by envaneo; 16-06-2015 at 04:26 PM.
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  20. #220

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    The only foreign special interest group in all this is the oil industry cabal.

  21. #221

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    Yeah, let's complain about foreign special interest groups when China owns Nexen?

  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ All on solid foundation but gone are the days $100 oil. Imo, oil producers are reacting more to that then Notley's proposed review.

    Is Notley in favour of the Northern Gateway pipeline? I can't remember what her stance is on that. It's probably in their pre election platform somewhere.
    Her position was that she's doubtful it will ever happen because of the resistance by various First Nations bands along it's route, as well as the BC government and people, and that Alberta would be better served directing it's efforts elsewhere. I don't think she ever said she was opposed to it in principle, but the practical realities of it make it very difficult to ever see it happening.

    I think that's a pretty realistic assessment.
    That's not what she just said re Keystone, which implies its as much philisophical issue:

    “I want to make two things perfectly clear,” the new premier told Wildrose energy critic Leela Aheer, one of 70 rookies in the new legislature.

    “First of all, our position on the Keystone (pipeline) was that if we ship unprocessed bitumen to Texas, according to this government and to the American government, we will give tens of thousands of Alberta jobs to Texas — not to Albertans — and that’s not what Albertans want to see.”
    http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...uestion-period

    So, will she now be spending billions to subsidize refineries (which will massivley raise, not lower, our greenhouse gas emissions, making Alberta look worse not better), and then billions more to build refined oil pipelines (as there isn't sufficient market in Western Canada if we were to refine the production), so that we can "do it all"?
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-06-2015 at 08:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    That's not what she just said re Keystone, which implies its as much philisophical issue:
    Well then, it's a good thing we weren't talking about Keystone.

    For what it's worth, I don't agree with the NDP or Notley that the government of Alberta should be getting in to the refinery business, or subsidizing oil companies to encourage them to build one. But we were specifically talking about Northern Gateway, and on that particular item I think that they're just being realistic, which just happens to coincide with the NDP's general opposition to pipelines and the oil and gas industry in general.

  24. #224

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    ^she seems to be sucking and blowing a little bit, on the one hand Gateway is bad because its a greenfield route (I agree this is the most challenging one because of that, but it has the beauty of a deep water port), and Keystone is bad, because it creates US jobs (not what Obama said though, he said it would be exported raw so few US jobs). But TM is ok, because its an existing route (even though it will create jobs in other countries where it will be refined, or even US as much of it will go to California), and Energy East is OK (which will also be jobs out of Alberta, even outside Canada, as I expect much of it will export as well). It plays to the base I guess, who don't seem to see the contradictions. In reality, all of them are probably needed, either that, or rail will just keep growing more and more, even with the low prices right now.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-06-2015 at 08:26 AM.

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    ^ Prince Rupert is also a deep water port as it would make more sense to route the NG pipeline in that direction. As an aside the NDP has or wants to scrap the carbon capture program. The good news is that the NDP will not impose a pst but for those making $100K or more will have to pay more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ Prince Rupert is also a deep water port as it would make more sense to route the NG pipeline in that direction. As an aside the NDP has or wants to scrap the carbon capture program. The good news is that the NDP will not impose a pst but for those making $100K or more will have to pay more.
    The threshold for the new tax rate is supposedly 125k, although details are yet to be released.

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    ^ I've never been a NDP supporter but so far I like what Notley is doing. She just needs to keep her hands off big oil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ These FN bands have been bought off by foreign special interest groups. Its been happening for years:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-canadian-oil

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...light-on-facts
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that at least some of those FN bands have the legal right to stop the pipeline from going over their territory.

    Complaining about "foreign special interests" is a little like saying "Well, the only reason Obama is against Keystone is because of all the money he gets from those Hollywood liberal tree-huggers". Maybe that's true, but in the final analysis, Obama is still the POTUS, and thus has a lot more say over what does an does not get built, than does anyone in the Canadian oil patch or government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ These FN bands have been bought off by foreign special interest groups. Its been happening for years:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-canadian-oil

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...light-on-facts
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that at least some of those FN bands have the legal right to stop the pipeline from going over their territory.

    Complaining about "foreign special interests" is a little like saying "Well, the only reason Obama is against Keystone is because of all the money he gets from those Hollywood liberal tree-huggers". Maybe that's true, but in the final analysis, Obama is still the POTUS, and thus has a lot more say over what does an does not get built, than does anyone in the Canadian oil patch or government.
    "Bought off," isn't really accurate either. Those bands stand to make a lot of money if they allow the pipeline through. They are working with various lobby groups, including U.S. ones, to block the pipeline but if this was about money the pipeline would already be under construction.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ These FN bands have been bought off by foreign special interest groups. Its been happening for years:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-canadian-oil

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...light-on-facts
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that at least some of those FN bands have the legal right to stop the pipeline from going over their territory.

    Complaining about "foreign special interests" is a little like saying "Well, the only reason Obama is against Keystone is because of all the money he gets from those Hollywood liberal tree-huggers". Maybe that's true, but in the final analysis, Obama is still the POTUS, and thus has a lot more say over what does an does not get built, than does anyone in the Canadian oil patch or government.
    You are trying to downplay the effect of foreign interference.

    It's like foreign terrorists trying to influence Canadian Muslim youth. We shouldn't ban the youth from forming their own perspective. But that foreign influence needs to be dealt with more force.

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    ^ ^ The Canadian lobby groups are affiliates of the American groups. It's all about lowering Canadian stock while raising their own. One just has to follow the money.

    In the news recently these special interest groups are protesting that the Harper Govt is putting pressure on them, like Greenpeace Canada. When in reality it was Jean Chrétien that said "Greenpeace serves no public good," and pulled Greenpeace charitable tax status, which is why anyone making a donation to Greenpeace Canada wont get a tax receipt.
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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...tors-1.3106957

    Defeated PC MLA David Xiao sues CBC and two of its reporters, the Wildrose Party, Danielle Smith, Kerry Towle, and two bloggers, for "damage to his reputation and feelings."

  33. #233

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    ^the poor baby, who would have guessed people say nasty things in politics?

  34. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by eons View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ These FN bands have been bought off by foreign special interest groups. Its been happening for years:

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...n-canadian-oil

    http://business.financialpost.com/fp...light-on-facts
    Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that at least some of those FN bands have the legal right to stop the pipeline from going over their territory.

    Complaining about "foreign special interests" is a little like saying "Well, the only reason Obama is against Keystone is because of all the money he gets from those Hollywood liberal tree-huggers". Maybe that's true, but in the final analysis, Obama is still the POTUS, and thus has a lot more say over what does an does not get built, than does anyone in the Canadian oil patch or government.
    You are trying to downplay the effect of foreign interference.

    It's like foreign terrorists trying to influence Canadian Muslim youth. We shouldn't ban the youth from forming their own perspective. But that foreign influence needs to be dealt with more force.

    Should the Pope get banned from entering Canada?... and like I've said - maybe we need a "Made in Canada" Pope.

    Pope Francis urges 'decisive' climate change action
    Francis wants to influence this year's key U.N. climate summit in Paris


    "Francis called for policies to "drastically" reduce polluting gases, saying technology based on fossil fuels "needs to be progressively replaced without delay" and sources of renewable energy developed."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/po...tion-1.3118149
    Last edited by KC; 18-06-2015 at 10:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...tors-1.3106957

    Defeated PC MLA David Xiao sues CBC and two of its reporters, the Wildrose Party, Danielle Smith, Kerry Towle, and two bloggers, for "damage to his reputation and feelings."
    He knows he gets a nice MLA pension when he retires doesn't he?
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    ^^ We do kind of, its called a Cardinal.
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  37. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^^ We do kind of, its called a Cardinal.
    Like the Queen vs the Governor General.

    I actually don't have a problem with any of it, but the queen always gets called a foreigner and if she ever even spoke a controversial thought, a lot of Canadians would be jumping up and down saying that we should dump the queen... as if any of it really matters.


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    When I think of the Queen, I think of the Sex Pistols song "God save the Queen." The song was not meant to diss the Queen btw.
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  39. #239

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    One to read...

    Thomson: Amnesia strikes the NDP’s conservative critics | Calgary Herald

    But to simply get angry over the results because your favourite party didn’t win — and to virulently decry pretty much everything from then on as unfair and undemocratic — isn’t just sour grapes, it’s unbalanced and, to be honest, a bit unhinged.

    And in a democratic system, which depends on reasonable and thoughtful debate, it’s just plain unhelpful.


    http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/col...vative-critics

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    When I think of the Queen, I think of the Sex Pistols song "God save the Queen." The song was not meant to diss the Queen btw.
    Well, "God save the Queen, and her fascist regime" certainly doesn't sound like a compliment.

    But yeah, it likely wasn't meant as a serious political critique, just offhand insults for sh*t and giggles.

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    Before Notley's 1st term is up I'd say a good portion of this board will end up hating her. It might not be enough to oust "her Government," but by next term she might just have a minority Government. Right now the Alberta Provincial deficit is at $6.1B and that's only going to get worse if commodity prices like oil don't change. Another credit rating downgrade will be this Government's downfall. Shades of Dalton McGuinty.
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  42. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Before Notley's 1st term is up I'd say a good portion of this board will end up hating her. It might not be enough to oust "her Government," but by next term she might just have a minority Government. Right now the Alberta Provincial deficit is at $6.1B and that's only going to get worse if commodity prices like oil don't change. Another credit rating downgrade will be this Government's downfall. Shades of Dalton McGuinty.
    Given the path of global pricing and the lack of market access for Alberta's oil, credit downgrades were on their way anyway. Still, people need someone to blame for past wrongs, and that's often the one in the position today. No matter what - you get look like an all-star if you spend, spend, spend and don't save for a rainy day. But have the misfortune of having to pick up the pieces and people will hate you. So, yes if tough times continue, people will hate Notley. We saw it with Jan Reimer. Check out her policies of the day...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Reimer

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    ^ Oh yeah, I've lived under anti business Jan. Another NDP bi...er woman. Don't get me started on her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ Oh yeah, I've lived under anti business Jan. Another NDP bi...er woman. Don't get me started on her.
    Can you specify what awful anti-business things took place under Reimer's watch?

    The one I've heard brought up on here is that some bigshot firm relocated, and when asked what the city should do to prevent further departures, the CEO replied "Quit having two airports". But using this as an anti-Reimer anedcote completely overlooks the fact that Reimer supported closing the Muni.

    And didn't Reimer eliminate, or at least significantly reduce, Edmonton's deficit?

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    Mike Nickle was a founding member of the Edmonton Stickmen and they were critical of Jan Reimer's anti business policies. Many businesses left Edmonton for Calgary under her administration and the phrase "Redmonton" basically came from her administration. She wasn't interested in developing business in the city during the recession in her term. We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story. JR was anti business and at the time everyone knew this.
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    I will always be impressed with her foresight in setting up Edmonton's waste management. A real step ahead of any other city.

  47. #247

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    A Jan Reimer thread for further discussion (below). But I'll throw out my two cents anyway... I think she was way ahead of her time in many ways. Wasn't she involved with safer cities and safer communities initiatives, debt pay down, recycling, MV assessment, even some work for welfare plan I believe.

    Interesting comments here though:

    A Jan Reimer thread:
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ad.php?t=16135

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    ^The Alberta Job Corp was founded during her administration
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story.
    According to a Hicks article quoted on the above-linked Reimer thread...

    "But he pulled up stakes for Calgary 15 years ago out of frustration: Disagreements with the city on cable right-of-ways, frustration with a perceived anti-business bias from then-Mayor Jan Reimer and her administration and logistical frustrations with the then-confusing scheduled-airline service at two airports."

    Like I said above, the two-airport issue can't in any way be blamed on Reimer, who supported closure. And while positions on the issue do cross ideological boundaries, with left-wingers and right-wingers on both sides, it remains the case that it was the conservative, "free-enterprise" Wildrose Party who were the biggest backers of keeping the Muni.

    As for the Oilers, well, what non-interventionist, free-market, fiscally conservative solution should Reimer have pursued to keep them here?
    Last edited by overoceans; 24-12-2015 at 12:59 PM. Reason: punctuation

  50. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    I will always be impressed with her foresight in setting up Edmonton's waste management. A real step ahead of any other city.
    She did I think do some good things I think, like save McKinnon Ravine from being a highway.
    Last edited by moahunter; 24-12-2015 at 08:52 AM.

  51. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    I will always be impressed with her foresight in setting up Edmonton's waste management. A real step ahead of any other city.
    She did I think do some good things I think, like save McKinnon Ravine from being a highway.
    That road would have been so nice for commuters heading downtown.


    Excepting the political influence of the surrounding communities, there's no way a business minded mayor would have passed on the chance for an expressway right into the heart of downtown just to save some more nature in the river valley.

    I.e. The airport lands could have been naturalized into a wonderful park to improve the future downtown of a growing city, but I'm sure that option never received a minute's consideration.
    Last edited by KC; 24-12-2015 at 02:16 PM.

  52. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story.
    According to a Hicks article quoted on the above-linked Reimer thread...

    "But he pulled up stakes for Calgary 15 years ago out of frustration: Disagreements with the city on cable right-of-ways, frustration with a perceived anti-business bias from then-Mayor Jan Reimer and her administration and logistical frustrations with the then-confusing scheduled-airline service at two airports."

    Like I said above, the two-airport issue can't in any way be blamed on Reimer, who supported closure. And while positions on the issue do cross ideological boundaries, with left-wingers and right-wingers on both sides, it remains the case that it was the conservative, "free-enterprise" Wildrose Party who were the biggest backers of keeping the Muni.

    As for the Oilers, well, what non-interventionist, free-market, fiscally conservative solution should Reimer have pursued to keep them here?
    There was no "perceived" anti business bias on Jan Reimer. It was obvious to anyone who lived here during those years. That's why JR lasted only one term.

    Jan Reimer's apathetic attitude over the Oilers even gave Sather pause. Reimer never did support the Oilers. If she were mayor today instead of Iveson none of what we have downtown would have occurred.
    Wasn't the city was being asked to subsidize the oilers? Is giving some businesses subsidies and not others being pro-business or anti-business?

    Also, why does Iveson get credit for today's downtown developments? I'd give it to Mandel.

    I'd be suspicious of the potential for 'circles of influence' that include certain businesses and exclude a whole lot of other businesses. Thus people aren't "pro-business" the are pro-power and influence as represented by certain business interests, and you get noticed for your astuteness, if not rewarded, if you are pro-those interests vs other less influential but more widespread business interests.

    Similarly on the left, providing greater benefits for the average worker might be great if not very honourable, but I'd bet tying in lesser but targeted or biased support for organized labour would result in far greater political benefits.
    Last edited by KC; 24-12-2015 at 02:34 PM.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    That's why JR lasted only one term.
    I think you might need to check your history books here.

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    Oops, I meant to delete the last sentence of my first paragraph. Didn't catch it in time, my bad.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story.
    According to a Hicks article quoted on the above-linked Reimer thread...

    "But he pulled up stakes for Calgary 15 years ago out of frustration: Disagreements with the city on cable right-of-ways, frustration with a perceived anti-business bias from then-Mayor Jan Reimer and her administration and logistical frustrations with the then-confusing scheduled-airline service at two airports."

    Like I said above, the two-airport issue can't in any way be blamed on Reimer, who supported closure. And while positions on the issue do cross ideological boundaries, with left-wingers and right-wingers on both sides, it remains the case that it was the conservative, "free-enterprise" Wildrose Party who were the biggest backers of keeping the Muni.

    As for the Oilers, well, what non-interventionist, free-market, fiscally conservative solution should Reimer have pursued to keep them here?
    There was no "perceived" anti business bias on Jan Reimer. It was obvious to anyone who lived here during those years.

    Jan Reimer's apathetic attitude over the Oilers even gave Sather pause. Reimer never did support the Oilers. If she were mayor today instead of Iveson none of what we have downtown would have occurred.
    Wasn't the city was being asked to subsidize the oilers? Is giving some businesses subsidies and not others being pro-business or anti-business?
    I seem to recall something like that but that had nothing to do with her anti business position, which was well established before that.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  56. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story.
    According to a Hicks article quoted on the above-linked Reimer thread...

    "But he pulled up stakes for Calgary 15 years ago out of frustration: Disagreements with the city on cable right-of-ways, frustration with a perceived anti-business bias from then-Mayor Jan Reimer and her administration and logistical frustrations with the then-confusing scheduled-airline service at two airports."

    Like I said above, the two-airport issue can't in any way be blamed on Reimer, who supported closure. And while positions on the issue do cross ideological boundaries, with left-wingers and right-wingers on both sides, it remains the case that it was the conservative, "free-enterprise" Wildrose Party who were the biggest backers of keeping the Muni.

    As for the Oilers, well, what non-interventionist, free-market, fiscally conservative solution should Reimer have pursued to keep them here?
    There was no "perceived" anti business bias on Jan Reimer. It was obvious to anyone who lived here during those years.

    Jan Reimer's apathetic attitude over the Oilers even gave Sather pause. Reimer never did support the Oilers. If she were mayor today instead of Iveson none of what we have downtown would have occurred.
    Wasn't the city was being asked to subsidize the oilers? Is giving some businesses subsidies and not others being pro-business or anti-business?
    I seem to recall something like that but that had nothing to do with her anti business position, which was well established before that.
    One more thought. In a democracy people have a vote, businesses and unions don't - or should I say the individuals acting as business execs and union leaders don't have separate preferential votes. So doesn't it seem like a poisoning of the system is occuring after elections, when organized labour and business interests thus receive incredibly preferential access and treatment among elected officials while the actual voters are demoted to the sidelines?

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    We almost lost the Oilers under her watch and she even suggested that Rexall Place could be turned into a giant homeless shelter. Then there was the Shaw cable fiasco but that's another story.
    According to a Hicks article quoted on the above-linked Reimer thread...

    "But he pulled up stakes for Calgary 15 years ago out of frustration: Disagreements with the city on cable right-of-ways, frustration with a perceived anti-business bias from then-Mayor Jan Reimer and her administration and logistical frustrations with the then-confusing scheduled-airline service at two airports."

    Like I said above, the two-airport issue can't in any way be blamed on Reimer, who supported closure. And while positions on the issue do cross ideological boundaries, with left-wingers and right-wingers on both sides, it remains the case that it was the conservative, "free-enterprise" Wildrose Party who were the biggest backers of keeping the Muni.

    As for the Oilers, well, what non-interventionist, free-market, fiscally conservative solution should Reimer have pursued to keep them here?
    There was no "perceived" anti business bias on Jan Reimer. It was obvious to anyone who lived here during those years.

    Jan Reimer's apathetic attitude over the Oilers even gave Sather pause. Reimer never did support the Oilers. If she were mayor today instead of Iveson none of what we have downtown would have occurred.
    Wasn't the city was being asked to subsidize the oilers? Is giving some businesses subsidies and not others being pro-business or anti-business?
    I seem to recall something like that but that had nothing to do with her anti business position, which was well established before that.
    Well, for the record, you're the one who brought up the near-loss of the Oilers under Reimer.

    And I think KC's point is that Reimer's critics were demanding that she be MORE interventionist, not less, on the Oilers issue. Which is kind of contradictory if the same people criticize her for otherwise being too keen on government involvement in the marketplace.

    A subsidy for the Oilers is, in effect, money taken from prosperous businesses and funnelled to a failing one. Basically, the same sort of thing that socialists are usually condemned for doing.

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