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Thread: The Fall of the Alberta P.C's...........

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    And of course the feminists turned a tasteless comment into a sexist issue. My god, I think my head is going to explode.
    No need whatsoever to turn it into a sexist issue. Rob Ford got his fair share of barbs about his weight. I also don't like the term 'body shaming'. Are we getting so politically correct that we cannot say 'overweight' or 'obese' anymore. Having said that, Ms. Hoffman's weight should not have any bearing on how she handles her portfolio.
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  2. #102
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    I wouldn't necessarily consider a sexism issue although women get called on their appearance in public life far more than men. That said Quebec's Minister of Health had the same problem last year but on a much larger scale from the looks of it.

    http://picardonhealth.tumblr.com/pos...verweight-does

    Personally, I think Lien's comments were offensive and another nail in the coffin of the party.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    The Journal's article on this moronic episode pointed out that Dave Hancock was 100 pounds overweight when he was health minister, and no one said a peep.

  4. #104

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    Here is the BMI calculator link to see what your BMI number is.

    http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educ...MI/bmicalc.htm

    Like it or not Obese is a medical term.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Global Edmonton ‏@GlobalEdmonton
    PC’s Jordan Lien apologizes after calling NDP minister ‘morbidly obese': http://glbn.ca/NL672
    Well, she is obese. Can't really dispute that.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Global Edmonton ‏@GlobalEdmonton
    PC’s Jordan Lien apologizes after calling NDP minister ‘morbidly obese': http://glbn.ca/NL672
    Well, she is obese. Can't really dispute that.
    So? What does that have to do with her ability to perform her job? Why is it relevant to bring up?

  7. #107

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    It has nothing to do with ability to perform that particular job.

    It's obvious she's obese whether someone says it or not, though.

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    Jesus.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    The Journal's article on this moronic episode pointed out that Dave Hancock was 100 pounds overweight when he was health minister, and no one said a peep.
    Probably had more to do with him being so insignificant, he wasn't really on any ones radar.
    On another note, Rob Ford had lots of barbs about his weight. Some people just like to go for cheap shots.
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  10. #110

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    ^at least they don't have girly hair like Trudeau Harpers getting a big fat (whoops, I mean, Obese) over time though.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily consider a sexism issue although women get called on their appearance in public life far more than men. That said Quebec's Minister of Health had the same problem last year but on a much larger scale from the looks of it.

    http://picardonhealth.tumblr.com/pos...verweight-does

    Personally, I think Lien's comments were offensive and another nail in the coffin of the party.
    Interesting comment in that article asking if Health Ministers should be role models. Well, firstly I think they should be human with human frailties and capable of doing the job. If some people want physical role models maybe put Fabio in the job.
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  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^at least they don't have girly hair like Trudeau Harpers getting a big fat (whoops, I mean, Obese) over time though.
    Well, if Harper was thin I bet you would never say he had a skinny azz.
    It seems people with stick figures fly under the radar but anyone in the public eye who has any kind of curves gets ridiculed. If they do something some people don't like the first line of bitching is about their weight. It seems some people are immune to other feelings.
    Last edited by Gemini; 02-06-2015 at 04:44 PM.
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  13. #113

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    ^to be honest, I think if you go into politics, you would have to roll with this sort of stuff. A bit offensive if it comes from another politician though, so I can understand why the upset here. It should be about your views, not the way you look, unfortunatley, that is not the case, looks do matter (otherwise, for example, pretty boy Trudeau wouldn't be leader of the Liberals, as we all know there is a vacume up top).

  14. #114

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    Joking about overweight people is a passive form of bullying. It's o k if a person is laughing with you but not so nice when they are laughing at you. If Hoffman is content with herself that's all that should matter.
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  15. #115

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    Ex MLA and former temporary Premier of Alberta who walked away with a golden handshake of approx. $800,000 of taxpayers money and a platinum pension funded by same said taxpayers has landed a job with TEC Edmonton.
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...438/story.html

    Wow, must be nice. As a politician he was about much use a plastic barbeque grille.
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  16. #116
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    Some folks were born to suck up money like an old hoover vacuum cleaner sucks up crap.

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    Prentice isn't far behind once he needs to validate himself.

  18. #118
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    The PCs just had an absolutely dismal fundraising quarter, bringing in just $15K -- half of what the third-place Liberals raised:

    With a campaign debt of roughly $1.5 million, new fundriaising numbers show the "collapse" of Alberta's long-governing Progressive Conservatives, say political analysts.

    Financial disclosures released Thursday evening by Elections Alberta show the Wildrose Party smoked the Alberta NDP in post-election fundraising, taking in $263,675 between July 1 and Sept. 30, while the PCs fell to fourth place.

    The Alberta NDP raised $82,745, followed by the Liberal Party with $29,285 and the PCs with just $15,575. [...]

    Interim PC Leader Ric McIver said he was aware fundraising was "nonexistent" following the May 5 election defeat but said the party was hampered by a post-election slump, federal campaign fundraising as well as new legislation banning corporate and union donations.

    "This is not a good report for us, we're aware of that," he said.

    "I guess congratulations to the NDP on being successful in their partisan legislation to make it harder for us to raise money so it is what it is and we're going to have to regroup, raise money differently than we have in the past, and soldier on."
    Ric McIver's cry-baby quote is absolutely hilarious. I suppose he forgot that the "partisan legislation" he is whining about, Bill 1, received all-party support, with votes from the entire PC caucus, including himself!

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    Seem pretty clear now where all their money was coming from.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Yup.

  21. #121

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    Cue the outrage from the Conservatives.

  22. #122
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    No, even they're not that stupid.

  23. #123

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    I have more faith in them than you do. I believe that they can be even more stupid than that.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    No, even they're not that stupid.
    McIver is and did complain about the NDP's "partisan" campaign finance bill that all the parties voted in favour of.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    ^He was literally against it, in favor of it, and now against it again. This is not a bright man.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Cue the outrage from the Conservatives.
    what outrage? They have all joined the wildrose as per fundraising numbers...

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    RIP Manmeet Bhullar -- pretty shocking: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rash-1.3331978

  28. #128

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    Alberta ex-premier Redford to attend her portrait unveiling, likely in spring.

    The image of former premier Alison Redford is expected to be immortalized on the walls of the Alberta legislature this spring — and Redford will be on hand for the unveiling.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...556/story.html

    Alberta's very own Mona Lisa.
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  29. #129

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    ^perhaps a picture from the sky palace? I wonder if her daughter will be included?

  30. #130

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    http://www.pri.org/stories/2012-08-2...s-fresco-spain

    Remember that woman who took the painting of Jesus home to restore it. I'm thinking Alison's picture should look something like that. It will be interesting to see her sachaying around again like she owns the joint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    RIP Manmeet Bhullar -- pretty shocking: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rash-1.3331978
    I wonder why an RCMP tactical squad was sent out to recover Bhullar's personal effects, and close part of the QEII in doing so? Seems strange.

    http://globalnews.ca/news/2588248/tr...hullars-death/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  32. #132

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    If it had been a regular Martha & Henry Albertan the RCMP would not even entertain the idea of you asking them to look for sentimental items of a loved one killed in the same manner. I should also hazard a guess it's not part of the RCMP's mandate either. I see no mention of anything of a sensitive nature in regards to government work being mentioned, just sentimental pieces.
    Just watched this on CFRN 6 o'clock news. There were at least 10 officers working on this.
    Last edited by Gemini; 19-03-2016 at 06:05 PM.
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  33. #133
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    They must be digging up confidential state secrets or something. A squadron of special ops out there just to recover personal items on taxpayers' dime just smells fishy.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  34. #134

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    I'm not thinking there is any conspiracy theory whatsoever. As nice as the guy was that was a complete waste of RCMP resources. 10-15 officers with several vehicles looking for things of sentimental value. Not to mention holding traffic up for however long it took. It would be very interesting to know who gave this project the O.K. Thy should be reprimanded.
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    My guess is either the tactical team is the most available to do the work or they are already the best cross-trained to do the work. A lot of the members have multiple roles within the RCMP and tactical response is only a part of their job.

    As for 10 people, you really need to have people walking almost shoulder to shoulder to comb the area for the smallest of items, even then they mentioned some personal affects are still missing.

  36. #136

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    I don't ever recall a time where the RCMP (or any other police service) has shut down lanes on a highway for four hours to look for someone's personal belongings four months after an accident. Who O.K'd. this?. Is this going to be something all the public can rely on when there loved one is in an accident. We are all supposed to be equal under the law. Can we call in and get RCMP officers to shut down a highway to find watches, cufflinks, earrings, glasses, trinkets etc when we have a loved one involved in an accident. As awful as someone's death is this is not how the RCMP should be utilizing their time.
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  37. #137
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    I have to agree. It reeks of some serious nepotism & cronyism, dressed up as a good deed.

  38. #138
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    Calgary Greenway byelection is today to replace Manmeet Bhular. I'm hoping Wildrose will win the byelection it would almost put a stop to the PC party and force a change where if they want to be in power they would need to adopt the Wildrose's more conservative policies.

    But it is a close race according to polls so it could go any way.
    http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/poll-indic...tion-1.2816005

  39. #139
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    The WR and PC will split the vote

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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    If you consider that Ralph Klein considered himself a Liberal prior to entry into provincial politics. There are quite a few other examples of various party switching with all the parties. In truth the differences between the provincial Liberals and PCs aren't that huge. Even the provincial NDP is far more conservative in Alberta than the national NDP or in other provinces.

    Perhaps Prab Gill is a bit more left leaning than Harper or had an axe to grind. Harper didn't make himself easy to like in the last few years of his tenure. Or perhaps Prab just wants to smoke a blunt or liked Justin's hair. Inquiring minds want to know.

  42. #142

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    ^Its fitting, I think the Redford version of PC's was almost identical to Trudeau's Liberals. Spend massively, scared to say no / not give anyone in government what they ask for, fancy overseas trips with the kids, etc.

  43. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^Its fitting, I think the Redford version of PC's was almost identical to Trudeau's Liberals. Spend massively, scared to say no / not give anyone in government what they ask for, fancy overseas trips with the kids, etc.
    But with a diversified national economy and control over exchange rates. (Debt priced in Can dollars gets paid back in cdn dollars.) ...and taking power at a lucky, opportunistic time in terms of borrowing massively and cheaply.

    Lacking those luxuries, Alberta has to be more fiscally conservative. We're lucky that the BodC allowed the dollar to tumble and hand Alberta a ton of pricing relief.
    Last edited by KC; 23-03-2016 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default ex-Environment Minister PC may face conflict of interest charges

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...522472?cmp=rss

    Robin Campbell, ex-Minister of the Environment may face conflict of interest charges for becoming a lobbyist on behalf of the coal industry within a year of leaving office.

    Under the Conflict of Interest Act, there is supposed to be a year cooling-off period.

    Troubling, but perhaps more troubling is that an ex-environment minister parachuted into a highly paid position for the coal industry. Classic PCs...

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    Sort of weird that the reverse isn't illegal, for example the former AUPE negotiator appointed to be the government negotiator. This seems very political and unfair that you can literally become a government appointee in a day or 2 but have to wait a year to become a lobbyist. I think there should be a year waiting period for both.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...contract-talks

  46. #146
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    I agree it does seem weird. However the intent of the Act is to prevent people from making government decisions that will personally benefit them when they leave office. e.g. passing a law beneficial to industry "x", being rewarded with a job in industry "x". That happens a lot in the states.

    Also, the negotiator will now be under the same conflict of interest provisions as anyone else. They cannot show favoritism to one side.

    I also don't think it is nearly as egregious to hire a trained negotiator, than it is for an environment minister to become a coal lobbyist.

  47. #147

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    Seems a bit suspicious to me that past P.C's indiscretions are back in the news just as the P.C's and Wildrosies are now seriously flirting with the idea of merging. Redford's tobacco gate has surfaced again, AHS Kaminski's shady resignation, Campbell's folly. It seems someone/entity is afraid the right will unite and maybe be a threat to them so they are raking up instances of just how bad the P.C's were. More to come no doubt.
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  48. #148
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    I'm not sure why the Wildrose would remotely consider it, what advantages are there to be associated with a inflexible, possibly corrupt party.

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    Also from what I've heard the PCs aren't interested in a merger either.

    There is Dave Rutherford's Alberta Prosperity Fund committee which is trying to convince them to but I'm not sure they're getting a lot of interest from the parties themselves.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  50. #150

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    I was reading an article the other day were Brian Jean said if ('if' being the operative word) the Wildrose & P.C's merge it would be on the understanding the P.C's would be coming into their fold not the other way around. Jean would be in charge, no shared power etc. I would not write a merger off completely. They are just waiting for the right time.
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  51. #151
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    I suspect both parties have the same attitude of it only happens if the other guy joins them. Pretty much the equivalent of no interest in a real merger.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  52. #152
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    We're a much healthier democracy without a merger. I can't think of anything worse for Alberta than creating a new party designed to be the natural governing party for another 40 year dynasty.

    If Dave were really so sure that most Albertans are conservative he wouldn't be so paranoid about being stuck with an NDP government. Maybe he thinks the NDP are actually doing a good enough job that there's a very real chance they'll be reelected?

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    It'd be nice to have regular changes of government rather than successive dynasties.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  54. #154

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    Dynasties are O.K. if they are doing all the right things, but unfortunately absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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  55. #155
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    Disagree, dynasties inevitably end in bad government and a long time of it. In Canada the experience of the last forty years is after ten years governments are already problematic in their behaviour. After forty they're downright disastrous.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  56. #156

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    ^Please re-read my one line post again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Please re-read my one line post again.
    The first part says dynasties are OK. Presumably you mean there are conditions where dynasties can function well. I disagree with that.

    The second part is a meaningless/not applicable aphorism so I disregarded it.

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  58. #158

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    Dynasties are O.K. if they are doing all the right things,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Dynasties are O.K. if they are doing all the right things,
    Which is the point I disagree with as it never happens. It's kind of like saying taking heroin every day is awesome as long as you don't get addicted.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  60. #160

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    Anyone know when they are supposed to be hanging Redford's portrait in the ledge. I thought is was going to be the end of May but have not seen anything about it in the news. Unless the quietly hung it while the Ft. Mac crisis was going on. Anyway, would like to see how the portrait turned out. If it managed to capture her true essence, so to speak. He He.
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    No, that would have to include a broom and pointed hat. Not gonna happen.

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    I get that Jason Kenney is the big story of the day, but this raised my eyebrows a bit:

    Edmonton Coun. Michael Oshry says he’s weighing a bid for the Progressive Conservative leadership.

    But it won’t be aimed at uniting the right, he said: “What Alberta needs is a party that’s down the middle.”

    Former federal Conservative cabinet minister Jason Kenney is expected to launch his leadership bid Wednesday. He’ll be the first candidate to declare ahead of the March 2017 party vote.

    Oshry said he’s not making up his mind until after the party’s November policy convention. There, delegates from all 87 constituency associations will start work on a new policy manual for the party, which hasn’t had one for years. ...

    Oshry said he will decide if he’s running for a council seat again after he decides on the PC leadership bid. He said he will not run for mayor.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ive-leadership

    I guess I'm not entirely shocked to see one of my least favorite city councilors identifying with my least favorite provincial political party, but I am surprised he'd want to waste his time with this sort of dalliance.

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    He'd definitely be a clear contrast to Kenney who is explicitly running to merge the Wildrose and the PCs. Implicitly Kenney wants to do that to bolster his federal leadership bid with big success in Alberta, otherwise known as the Prentice Maneuver. That would be another thing in Oshry, or any other candidates favour.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Against: Lack of stature, gravitas, province-wide name recognition, and possibly too mushy of an ideology for whatever's left of the PCs' base. (Although that last one is definitely merely a guess -- I have no idea who exactly considers themselves card-carrying PCs anymore.)

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    I thought Kenney did pretty well, the NDP should be worried

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I get that Jason Kenney is the big story of the day, but this raised my eyebrows a bit:

    Edmonton Coun. Michael Oshry says he’s weighing a bid for the Progressive Conservative leadership.

    But it won’t be aimed at uniting the right, he said: “What Alberta needs is a party that’s down the middle.”

    Former federal Conservative cabinet minister Jason Kenney is expected to launch his leadership bid Wednesday. He’ll be the first candidate to declare ahead of the March 2017 party vote.

    Oshry said he’s not making up his mind until after the party’s November policy convention. There, delegates from all 87 constituency associations will start work on a new policy manual for the party, which hasn’t had one for years. ...

    Oshry said he will decide if he’s running for a council seat again after he decides on the PC leadership bid. He said he will not run for mayor.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ive-leadership

    I guess I'm not entirely shocked to see one of my least favorite city councilors identifying with my least favorite provincial political party, but I am surprised he'd want to waste his time with this sort of dalliance.
    Just curious - what is it about Oshry that you dislike?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    His voting record, namely. I hated his vote against additional funding for the AGA, for instance. I've noticed he's on the wrong side of a lot of votes versus my beliefs, and he had some pretty wankery (and hypocritical) comments about partisan politics and municipal elections. He's not as bad as, say, Kerry Diotte was, but I've grown to dislike him.

  68. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought Kenney did pretty well, the NDP should be worried
    Nothing to worry about. Alberta has finally gotten out of the early 20th Century and won't be regressing with Kenney and his ilk.
    Last edited by The Man From YEG; 06-07-2016 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought Kenney did pretty well, the NDP should be worried
    Nothing to worry about. Alberta has finally gotten out of the early 20th Century and won't be regressing with Kenney and his ilk.
    You realize, don't you, that 52 percent of Albertans voted for conservative parties last election? And that was in an election the PCs probably ran the worst campaign ever. As of latest polls, 56 percent support Conservative parties:

    http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/alberta.html

    If Kenney can unite the right, the united party will win a landslide even if there is a significant drop off in support. I think the PCs need merger to survive, if they go into next election with that poll support, it won't be pretty, and a late merger at the last minute, ala Prentice / Smith, is political suicide.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-07-2016 at 11:36 PM.

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    I think his odds of winning the leadership aren't great and if he does, the odds of merging the parties pretty slim too. Well technically he can't merge them as that's not possible under Alberta election law. One of the parties would have to close down and relinquish it's funds to Alberta Elections. That he's running for the PCs suggests he expects the Wildrose to be that party. I really doubt he can convince the Wildrose MLA's to cross the floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought Kenney did pretty well, the NDP should be worried
    Nothing to worry about. Alberta has finally gotten out of the early 20th Century and won't be regressing with Kenney and his ilk.
    You realize, don't you, that 52 percent of Albertans voted for conservative parties last election? And that was in an election the PCs probably ran the worst campaign ever. As of latest polls, 56 percent support Conservative parties:

    http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/alberta.html

    If Kenney can unite the right, the united party will win a landslide even if there is a significant drop off in support. I think the PCs need merger to survive, if they go into next election with that poll support, it won't be pretty, and a late merger at the last minute, ala Prentice / Smith, is political suicide.

    Lots of time before the next election, with Notleys polling numbers, she's going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat PDQ. Her taxes are killing small businesses..

  72. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    You realize, don't you, that 52 percent of Albertans voted for conservative parties last election? And that was in an election the PCs probably ran the worst campaign ever. As of latest polls, 56 percent support Conservative parties:
    Don't abuse the moniker "Conservative". Kenney is a CON or, as more polite society including Sandra Jansen and Richard Starke term it, a "social conservative". The legacy of the true Conservative parties of the past should not be dragged into the darkness that is represented by CONs like Kenney and his ilk.

    A snake in a sheep's mask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    His voting record, namely. I hated his vote against additional funding for the AGA, for instance. I've noticed he's on the wrong side of a lot of votes versus my beliefs, and he had some pretty wankery (and hypocritical) comments about partisan politics and municipal elections. He's not as bad as, say, Kerry Diotte was, but I've grown to dislike him.



    Suggests to Top_Dawg that you simply harbour wrong beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post

    You realize, don't you, that 52 percent of Albertans voted for conservative parties last election? And that was in an election the PCs probably ran the worst campaign ever. As of latest polls, 56 percent support Conservative parties:
    Don't abuse the moniker "Conservative". Kenney is a CON or, as more polite society including Sandra Jansen and Richard Starke term it, a "social conservative". The legacy of the true Conservative parties of the past should not be dragged into the darkness that is represented by CONs like Kenney and his ilk.

    A snake in a sheep's mask.

    There is already a name for Kenney and the rest of the Harper cadre's ideology. It's "neoliberal".

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    No, neoliberalism does not include the government invasiveness into private life that comes with Kenney's social conservatism. Proper neoliberalism is verging on Libertarian.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    His voting record, namely. I hated his vote against additional funding for the AGA, for instance. I've noticed he's on the wrong side of a lot of votes versus my beliefs, and he had some pretty wankery (and hypocritical) comments about partisan politics and municipal elections. He's not as bad as, say, Kerry Diotte was, but I've grown to dislike him.



    Suggests to Top_Dawg that you simply harbour wrong beliefs.

    Agreed!

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    The social conservatism of the Harper cadre is of minuscule influence on their policy making compared to their distinctly neoliberal bent on the economy. Also note that neoliberal politicians have historically turned to social conservatism through brokerage politics in order to gain support - see Reagan, Thatcher. Others have combined extreme social conservatism with neoliberalism from the beginning of their own volition - see Pinochet.

    If you were going to point out any failure in the definition it should be their increasingly crony capitalist decision making. I don't want to get into libertarianism, but suffice to say it is not an internally consistent ideology worthy of comparison to schools of thought that actually influence policy.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 07-07-2016 at 10:36 AM.

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If you were going to point out any failure in the definition it should be their increasingly crony capitalist decision making. I don't want to get into libertarianism, but suffice to say it is not an internally consistent ideology worthy of comparison to schools of thought that actually influence policy.
    Living within your means, small government, letting people spend their own money rather than having elites spend it for them, all policies that generate real growth, and more money for everyone including government in the long term. But it does result in some people benefiting more than others, because like it or not, some people work harder or smarter than others. Tough concepts to comprehend, I'm glad I live in a province though where most Albertan's get it, and will happily return to it, once this NDP experiment is over, and we get back to a real conservative government, not the hijacked left wing one that Stelmac and Redford implemented (which is what the split the right, starting with Stelmacs land appropriation rules, which is what created the WR).
    Last edited by moahunter; 07-07-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If you were going to point out any failure in the definition it should be their increasingly crony capitalist decision making. I don't want to get into libertarianism, but suffice to say it is not an internally consistent ideology worthy of comparison to schools of thought that actually influence policy.
    Living within your means, small government, letting people spend their own money rather than having elites spend it for them, all policies that generate real growth, and more money for everyone including government in the long term. But it does result in some people benefiting more than others, because like it or not, some people work harder or smarter than others. Tough concepts to comprehend, I'm glad I live in a province though where most Albertan's get it, and will happily return to it, once this NDP experiment is over, and we get back to a real conservative government, not the hijacked left wing one that Stelmac and Redford implemented (which is what the split the right, starting with Stelmacs land appropriation rules, which is what created the WR).
    Let's do a report card then.

    Did they:

    1) Live within their means? No.

    2) Have "small government"? No.

    3) Generate "real growth"? No, arguing that "real" growth is that which is sustainable.

    4) Establish policies that lead to everyone, including the government, having more money in the long term? No.

    Looks like your ideology fails at every single goal you stated. It isn't rocket science to look at the track record of neoliberal states. Great GDP growth in the short term, but long term instability, wealth inequality, and eventual stagnation. In every single example.

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    It now appears Kenney's plan, if he can convince he membership of both parties, is to shutter both and create the Conservative Party of Alberta.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...of-alberta-pcs

    If it's going to happen this would be the way. I still doubt he can the Wildrose onside as they're sitting in a fairly strong position right now. Kenney may be counting on members moving the PCs if he gets the leadership. One thing for the members of both parties to think about, though, is whether they should donate to either party while this is up in the air. Kenney's plan would have the bank accounts of both parties going to Alberta Elections.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  81. #181

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    I don't want another Calgarian running the show in Alberta. I am sick and tired of the Calgary dynasty always giving Edmontonians a raw deal. Conservative party supporters living in the Edmonton region should vote for Michael Oshry.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  82. #182

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    Voting for someone based upon where their from versus their platform, views & record seems a little naďve & potentially counterproductive.

    "He may be a goofball but he's OUR goofball" doesn't seem like a solid endorsement to me. But then again, I've never bought into the vast anti-Edmonton conspiracy that so many seem to promote. Occam's Razor & all that.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    ^^ Unfortunately Calgarians don't like it much either when it's a non-Calgarian that's running the show. I recall a lot of complaining from down south when Ed Stelmach was premier.

  84. #184

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    If Ed Stelmach wasn't in power, the new Royal Alberta Museum would have never happened.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Voting for someone based upon where their from versus their platform, views & record seems a little naďve & potentially counterproductive.

    "He may be a goofball but he's OUR goofball" doesn't seem like a solid endorsement to me. But then again, I've never bought into the vast anti-Edmonton conspiracy that so many seem to promote. Occam's Razor & all that.



    Top_Dawg's gotta give you a high five for that one noodle.

    Classic.

    Especially when viewed in context of Kenney and Oshry.

  86. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    If you were going to point out any failure in the definition it should be their increasingly crony capitalist decision making. I don't want to get into libertarianism, but suffice to say it is not an internally consistent ideology worthy of comparison to schools of thought that actually influence policy.
    Living within your means, small government, letting people spend their own money rather than having elites spend it for them, all policies that generate real growth, and more money for everyone including government in the long term. But it does result in some people benefiting more than others, because like it or not, some people work harder or smarter than others. Tough concepts to comprehend, I'm glad I live in a province though where most Albertan's get it, and will happily return to it, once this NDP experiment is over, and we get back to a real conservative government, not the hijacked left wing one that Stelmac and Redford implemented (which is what the split the right, starting with Stelmacs land appropriation rules, which is what created the WR).
    Let's do a report card then.

    Did they:

    1) Live within their means? No.

    2) Have "small government"? No.

    3) Generate "real growth"? No, arguing that "real" growth is that which is sustainable.

    4) Establish policies that lead to everyone, including the government, having more money in the long term? No.

    Looks like your ideology fails at every single goal you stated. It isn't rocket science to look at the track record of neoliberal states. Great GDP growth in the short term, but long term instability, wealth inequality, and eventual stagnation. In every single example.
    Did you read what I wrote? The PCs did all of that, under Klein. Then they lost their way, decided to go on a power hungry spending spree, instead of responsibly restricting government spending to what we can actually afford. The rest, re the mess we are in, is history. I am hopeful we will get a real Conservative party again, which restores the Alberta advantage. Without that advantage, of lower taxes than the rest of Canada, things are just going to get worse no matter how much of future generations money our governments waste on squat, like they are right now, we are getting nothing to show for the huge deficits we have now (and had under Redford before that).
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 11:47 AM.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Did you read what I wrote? The PCs did all of that, under Klein. Then they lost their way, decided to go on a power hungry spending spree. The rest, re the mess we are in, is history. I am hopeful we will get a real Conservative party again, which restores the Alberta advantage. Without that advantage, of lower taxes than the rest of Canada, things are just going to get worse no matter how much of future generations money our governments waste.

    I'm fully aware of your conveniently selective version of Alberta's political history. Unfortunately for you, the facts don't support the fantasy. Ralph Klein slashed budgets, but he did so without a plan. He orchestrated the foundation of our current unstable economy by cracking all the eggs that weren't in his feeble basket propped up by oil.

    If you want a truly fiscal conservative government instead of an unpredictable ****-show led by a drunk loose cannon, look back a few decades before Klein.

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    Apparently he has some memory issues:

    Kenney said he could not remember who he voted for in the 2015 provincial election
    http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...-still-welcome

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  89. #189

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    ^^when I came to Alberta, we were in a surplus, yet oil was about $20 per barrel. Sure, government burecrats weren't marking what they do now, government services were leaner, health wait times no better, but we had low taxes and private sector investment even without high oil prices. It could just as easily be achieved today, but you need a leader who isn't afraid to cut fat, who can say no to unions. We haven't had one of those since Klein. As to the personal habits he had, I couldn't care less, he liked to drink, at least he drank with anyone at local bars, he didnt need penthouses, elites, and champagne like Redford did, and our NDP former Ontario burecrats do.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 12:03 PM.

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    March is a way off in terms of politics, what they say now, maybe taken back later. I just don't see the NDP experiment working again,and if she gets in again, it will be a minority, as it should have been this time

    ABNDP..

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    but we had low taxes
    Corporate taxes during Klein were higher than they are now.
    http://www.finance.alberta.ca/public...tes/hist1.html

    Unless you're making over 200K a year, personal taxes are also lower.

  92. #192

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    Nothing quite like facts to get in the way of PC rhetoric!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  93. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    March is a way off in terms of politics, what they say now, maybe taken back later. I just don't see the NDP experiment working again,and if she gets in again, it will be a minority, as it should have been this time

    ABNDP..
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    but we had low taxes
    Corporate taxes during Klein were higher than they are now.
    http://www.finance.alberta.ca/public...tes/hist1.html

    Unless you're making over 200K a year, personal taxes are also lower.
    Lower than other provinces is the key, if we want business to invest here. Right now nobody will start a small business only to be taxed at 48 percent, in Alberta, when you can invest in a much bigger market like Ontario or BC and basically be taxed much the same, and likely face lower labor costs to boot. Without an Alberta advantage for small business to offset our geographical isolation and high salary / wages, we aren't going to see any significant improvement in employment rates, or government revenues anytime soon. With current deficits, people are scared to invest because they know taxes are just going to keep going up eventually, to pay for our current lavish largess.

    When the right gets back in power, cuts the top personal tax rate, removes the stupid carbon/sales tax, and slashes government spending, this province will roar back into life. Most Albertans want this, as the polls show.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Right now nobody will start a small business only to be taxed at 48 percent, in Alberta, when you can invest in a much bigger market like Ontario or BC and basically be taxed much the same, and likely face lower labor costs to boot.
    Small business tax rate in AB is 3%. Not 48%.
    http://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/...rates-2015.htm

    Maybe you're talking about income? Not sure why a business owner would take income rather than dividends, but whatever, you don't have to be bright to be good at business.

    http://www.taxtips.ca/calculators/ba...calculator.htm
    The only way I can get close to an average tax rate of 48% is if one makes 5mil in income. Obviously, no one would be that daft. Oddly enough, even if you did claim 5mil in income, the average tax rate of 47.4% would be second lowest in the country, with BC at 47.1%.
    Last edited by nobleea; 08-07-2016 at 12:53 PM.

  95. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Right now nobody will start a small business only to be taxed at 48 percent, in Alberta, when you can invest in a much bigger market like Ontario or BC and basically be taxed much the same, and likely face lower labor costs to boot.
    Small business tax rate in AB is 3%. Not 48%.
    http://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/...rates-2015.htm
    Small business, if it incorporates, distributes income to owners (nobody invests to leave the money they make sitting idle in a company forever). If you want small business investment, which is key to lower unemployment rates, the only rate that matters is the top personal rate.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 12:56 PM.

  96. #196

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    Lowering the corporate tax too much leads to its own problems. If it was as simple as "Yeah! Let's make it lower than everybody else and attract all the corporations to this province and everybody lives happily ever after" then there wouldn't be much debate, would there.

  97. #197

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    ^i didn't say anything about lowering the corporate tax rate, it is the personal tax rate which is resulting in people choosing not to take a chance on setting up a business in Alberta, versus other provinces which have equivalent rates but lower labor costs and bigger market. It has also destroyed the Alberta trust industry which used to bring a ton of tax money into the province (at the expense mostly of Quebec). For example, why would you take a chance on setting up a restaurant, or t-shirt store, or juice bar, or plumbing business, or whatever, when you know minimum wage is going to rise (forcing you to do much of the work yourself, or price yourself out), and even if you make a profit after all that risk, half of it ends up with the government once you try to take it out. The answer is, you don't, or if you do, you at least go somewhere where labor costs less, and there are more people to sell to.
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 01:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Right now nobody will start a small business only to be taxed at 48 percent, in Alberta, when you can invest in a much bigger market like Ontario or BC and basically be taxed much the same, and likely face lower labor costs to boot.
    Small business tax rate in AB is 3%. Not 48%.
    http://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/...rates-2015.htm
    Small business, if it incorporates, distributes income to owners (nobody invests to leave the money they make sitting idle in a company forever). If you want small business investment, which is key to lower unemployment rates, the only rate that matters is the top personal rate.
    No. Most small business corporations will distribute a mix of salary and dividends to the owners (who are also the shareholders). An accountant can tell them what the breakdown should be between income/dividends in order to minimize taxes while still getting their desired RRSP contribution limits, CPP contributions, etc. Most small business corp owners I know take a very small salary, if any at all (a 40K ish) and take the rest as dividends, which are taxed more favourably. It's about 16% less than income tax rates. Also very competitive in AB and I don't believe the govt has changed that rate.

  99. #199

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    ^you generally don't save any tax setting up corporation versus investing personally, if you distribute all the income out. That's how integration works (although it isn't perfect), whether it be dividend or salary. It's the personal tax rate that matters for most small businesses, unless they have enough profit to reinvest / leave in the company(in which case a corp can have some value). The main value of a Corp though is liability protection not tax. Even Mulcair understood this, his platform last election was corporate tax increases, but no increase to top personal rate because of the small business impact:

    https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...-tax-rate.html
    Last edited by moahunter; 08-07-2016 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^you generally don't save any tax setting up corporation versus investing personally, if you distribute all the income out. That's how integration works (although it isn't perfect), whether it be dividend or salary. It's the personal tax rate that matters for most small businesses, unless they have enough profit to reinvest / leave in the company(in which case a corp can have some value). The main value of a Corp though is liability protection not tax.
    oi.
    http://www.taxtips.ca/calculators/ba...calculator.htm

    Go through and and figure out the tax payable (combined fed/AB) for total values of 100K, 300, 600K, any value you want. Break it down as 100% income, 100% dividends, or any combination thereof. Corporations only pay 3% on the first 500K of profit. The tax savings are substantial. And if you are daft enough to take it all as salary, AB's average tax rate is within a hair of being the lowest in the country.

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