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Thread: Edmonton Police officers shot

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    Default Edmonton Police officers shot


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    Horrible
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    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Just terrible.

    Janice Johnston ‏@cbcjanjohnston
    "It has been 25 yrs since @edmontonpolice officer has died in line of duty. RIP Ezio Faraone June 25/90. Another death tonight. #yeg #CBC"
    https://twitter.com/cbcjanjohnston/s...19832270249984
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    Nothing confirmed yet. Sounds like the fire is under control and there will be a news conference at 11:30. It's still considered an active scene.

    I suspect they believe the shooter was in the fire but until they can confirm that they can not rule out that he is still at large.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Yeah the fire looks under control, I was able to see the smoke from my window, but there is nothing now.

    Truly sad day. News conference moved up to midnight.

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    Yes, the shooting is horrible and terrible.

    I wish the same horrible-terribles were heard as loudly in the equally horrible and equally terrible cases when the police shoot someone.

    A human life is a human life.

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    Bryan Passifiume ‏@SUNBryanpass
    Sources within EPS confirmed the man targeted by undercover officers was Norman Raddatz, thought to be associated w/ Freemen of the Land
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^ "freeman on the land"....oh boy...

    I'm roughly 10 blocks away from the incident. Could see the smoke from the burning house and the chopper was buzzing overhead non-stop for around 2 hours. Sirens were everywhere starting 8:30 or so.




    Extremely unfortunate what transpired. My condolences to the fallen's family. Hope the second injured officer will recover in no time.

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    Freemen on the Land wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

    Looks like libertarianism to the extreme.
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    @LukaszukMLA: Please turn on your porch light tonight in honour of our fallen & injured heroes in blue. We owe them & their families highest gratitude.

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    CBC News Now with Ian Hanomansing has live coverage right now. EPS press conference around midnight.

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    If it indeed is a freemen on the land I almost wonder if it's not a case of the guy renting a house, not paying rent and changing all the locks. Which escalated to killing an officer and burning the place down...maybe the press conference will shed some insight.

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    I wish the chief hurries up with that news conference. Poor Quinn Ohler has been repeating and repeating the story for the past 10 minutes.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Constable Daniel Whitall died of his injuries.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    My guess is the suspect is dead inside the burnt house.

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    Dave Mowat ‏@dmowat_atb 2h2 hours ago
    Our Blue Line. June 8, 2015, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

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    Thoughts and condolences with the families of both officers.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Was this exact neighbourhood not the scene of another high profile crime a year or two ago?

    I can't place the event, but I recognised the neighbourhood instantly. Something or other concerning an SUV driven on the multi-use path.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    We live just off of 153 street and 107 avenue, around 8 pm I was out front of our house having a ciggie and saw about half a dozen EPS vehicles zipping west on 107th like a bat outta hell...now I know why.

    First EPS officer killed in the line of the duty since 1990, and I'm sure we all remember that one.

    Incidents like this make me wish Canada had never abolished Capital Punishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Was this exact neighbourhood not the scene of another high profile crime a year or two ago?

    I can't place the event, but I recognised the neighbourhood instantly. Something or other concerning an SUV driven on the multi-use path.
    Yeah, just a few weeks ago, there was a guy shot (who lived I believe) just in a parking lot of a church right at the intersection. The incident last night was about 1 block west of that.

    In addition, I remember there was a guy wanted on a Canada wide warrant holed ended up in an apartment building just half a block north of Callingwood Rd on 184st. Was this maybe what you were thinking about?

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    New conference at 8:30.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Freemen on the Land wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

    Looks like libertarianism to the extreme.
    If you're looking for a bit of comic relief, type Freeman On The Land into YouTube. You'll find some hilarious videos of "free and sovereign citizens" trying to assert their rights under maritime law to be immune from all statute law.

    My favorite is the guy giving an introdcutory lecture, who says that because he's a freeman on the land the cops can't stop him from drinking beer in public.

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    From the news conference, they were serving a criminal harassment warrant and were authorized to enter the house to arrest the suspect. They knocked, asked for entry, and when denied entry brought in a battering ram to take down the door. At that point the suspect shot through the door hitting two officers. One in the back on his body armour and the other missing the body armour and causing a catastrophic wound. It is believed the rifle was very high power as 53 shots hit the house across the street with some passing all the way through the house.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Dan Rose ‏@The_Rosbif 9h9 hours ago
    Two candles lit in Ezio Faraone Park in #yegdt tonight. #yeg #EPSstrong

    https://twitter.com/The_Rosbif/statu...70524397600768
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    The wife of Cst. Whitall:

    Claire ‏@NumberGenie 2h2 hours ago
    Your generous outpouring of love for myself and my boys fills my heart.. He is my hero,our boys'hero &Edmonton's newest hero. #EPSstrong

    https://twitter.com/NumberGenie/stat...74918237741056
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  26. #26

    Default Iveson apologises

    Silly stuff by Don, no amount of registries are going to prove that someone does or doesn't have a gun:

    http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/1.3106157

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    ^Have to agree. Let's just say they still had the registries and that address was looked up and it stated that there were no guns registered there. The police are still trained to expect the unexpected. Just because a gun is not registered does not mean there are no guns there. The police know this. Seems like the cops were ambushed by a very powerful gun. Seems like they did not stand a chance as the guy shot through a door. I got the impression that the officer that got killed was wearing a bullet proof vest and was shot several times. If the bullet proof vest is supposed to cover vital organs he must have got some pretty bad wounds to his lower extremities. Very sad in deed.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Possibly not the best time to bring it up, but he wasn't wrong in what he said.

    "I think every opportunity our police have to have knowledge of firearms in this city would be to their advantage," Iveson added during a news conference.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lobbdogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Was this exact neighbourhood not the scene of another high profile crime a year or two ago?

    I can't place the event, but I recognised the neighbourhood instantly. Something or other concerning an SUV driven on the multi-use path.
    Yeah, just a few weeks ago, there was a guy shot (who lived I believe) just in a parking lot of a church right at the intersection. The incident last night was about 1 block west of that.

    In addition, I remember there was a guy wanted on a Canada wide warrant holed ended up in an apartment building just half a block north of Callingwood Rd on 184st. Was this maybe what you were thinking about?
    Wow, but no. It was something else much earlier than that. Last summer perhaps? Summer before?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini
    Seems like the cops were ambushed by a very powerful gun.
    Ugh, this is a big pet peeve. It seems that in journalism school, everyone is taught that every time you write "rifle", you have to put "high powered" as a preface. The fact is, virtually all rifles are high powered. That's because they're rifles. By definition, nearly all rifles are "high powered" because they are designed to give the bullets high muzzle velocities, hence the long barrel. Even if the bullet is a small .22, it will pack a hell of a punch. It's completely superfluous to say that a rifle is "high powered", but it sure makes it sound scarier.

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    ^more than 50 bullets, so I'm guessing this guy was armed to the teeth.

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    That was over a period of 5 to 10 minutes, apparently, that he had the EPS officers pinned down. You could do that with a bolt action rifle. However there were also reports of ammunition cooking off during the fire, so yeah, it's probably fair to say he had himself a bit of a stockpile. But that doesn't mean he had an AK-47 or an AR-15 semi or fully auto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini
    Seems like the cops were ambushed by a very powerful gun.
    Ugh, this is a big pet peeve. It seems that in journalism school, everyone is taught that every time you write "rifle", you have to put "high powered" as a preface. The fact is, virtually all rifles are high powered. That's because they're rifles. By definition, nearly all rifles are "high powered" because they are designed to give the bullets high muzzle velocities, hence the long barrel. Even if the bullet is a small .22, it will pack a hell of a punch. It's completely superfluous to say that a rifle is "high powered", but it sure makes it sound scarier.
    I think the high powered came from the fact the bullets went through the door, across the street and through the house across the street. The police statement was that a "large bore rifle was used" and the penetration of the house across the street "speaks to the power of the weapon used."

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I think the high powered came from the fact the bullets went through the door, across the street and through the house across the street. The police statement was that a "large bore rifle was used" and the penetration of the house across the street "speaks to the power of the weapon used."
    Penetration of a wooden door and some drywall isn't indicative of much. A .22 round will penetrate quite well, even from a fairly small rifle. However, in reading a story on CBC, a neighbor said that the shots seemed to happen in 10-15 seconds: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ting-1.3106912

    So perhaps he did have an automatic rifle of some sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I think the high powered came from the fact the bullets went through the door, across the street and through the house across the street. The police statement was that a "large bore rifle was used" and the penetration of the house across the street "speaks to the power of the weapon used."
    Penetration of a wooden door and some drywall isn't indicative of much. A .22 round will penetrate quite well, even from a fairly small rifle. However, in reading a story on CBC, a neighbor said that the shots seemed to happen in 10-15 seconds: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ting-1.3106912

    So perhaps he did have an automatic rifle of some sort.
    My only point is the media were reporting what they were told by the police.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Lets turn those lights on folks, my neighbourhood is pitch black except my place....I have family in the force and my heart goes out to Constable Woodall, his wife and two young boys... its the least we can do, i even put some blue lights in my porch...
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    ^ My balcony lights are on.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    He had time for online and neighbourhood harassing but not doing the basic home responsibilities.


    Suspect in Edmonton police shooting identified as man wanted for hate crimes
    TU THANH HA AND SUNNY DHILLON
    Toronto and Edmonton — The Globe and Mail, June 9, 2015

    "Those who lived near Mr. Raddatz, 42, spoke of him as the neighbour everyone dreaded. Ryan Colton said Mr. Raddatz’s home, with its deteriorating exterior and frequently unmowed and garbage-ridden lawn, was “an eyesore.” Mr. Colton, who called city officials to complain about his neighbour, added that Mr. Raddatz was also “very aggressive” in situations that did not call for it and began leaving feces on Mr. Colton’s fence. When asked why, Mr. Colton said, “Because he’s an *****.”

    ...

    "Mr. Colton saw Mr. Raddatz’s ex-girlfriend, who had come to the murder scene. He said the ex-girlfriend told him Mr. Raddatz had recently become involved with the Freemen on the land movement and “kind of went off the deep end.” Police have said they are not aware of any link to the group that calls itself “sovereign citizens” and anti-government."


    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle24873176/

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    I've tied blue ribbons on to my car door handles as a small gesture of support to EPS and to Constable Daniel Woodall's family.
    Fly Edmonton first. Support EIA

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    ^^ Still no word on who he was harassing or why it warranted a hate crime investigation?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    ^^ Still no word on who he was harassing or why it warranted a hate crime investigation?
    With his death that investigation is over so we won't hear any details about it. I would think the harassed family will prefer to stay out of the media in any case.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    ^^ Still no word on who he was harassing or why it warranted a hate crime investigation?
    With his death that investigation is over so we won't hear any details about it. I would think the harassed family will prefer to stay out of the media in any case.
    Reports are: an anti-semitic criminal harassment of a family...

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    Ellerslie Road (I was along the stretch west of Hwy. 2 today) is festooned with blue ribbons. They're on trees, street furniture, lamp posts, etc. Even saw some election-style signs plus some blue signs cut out in a heart shape with #EPSstrong on them. Great display of recognition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Yes, the shooting is horrible and terrible.

    I wish the same horrible-terribles were heard as loudly in the equally horrible and equally terrible cases when the police shoot someone.

    A human life is a human life.
    Except typically when police shoot somebody it is in defence of their lives or somebody else's life. Police don't ambush people. There is a difference between justifiable homicide and murder.

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    Police shooter espoused extremist Freemen-on-the-Land ideology on Facebook page

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...580/story.html

    EDMONTON - On his Facebook page, police killer Norman Walter Raddatz posted about bylaw tickets he considered “constant harassment” by “taxation pirates,” railed against the courts and government, called homosexuals “sodomites,” and police “pigs.”

    He maintained that the capitalized spelling of a person’s name on government and bank documents was part of a pervasive corporate conspiracy.

    “They will have to drag me to court by force. I will not voluntarily enter a corrupt admiralty court,” Raddatz, 42, wrote on the social media site after receiving a bylaw ticket last summer.
    Edmonton Police Service spokesman Scott Pattison said Wednesday the criminal harassment file being investigated by Woodall and the hate crimes unit involved anti-Semitic harassment over more than a year. Pattison described it as a “lengthy campaign of anti-Semitic hatred and violence” against a man and his family. He said the harassment appeared to escalate at times. The man filed a police complaint a few months ago. Woodall was the primary investigator.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Simons: Police constable fought to protect Edmonton from hate. Sadly, hate killed him

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...592/story.html

    EDMONTON - Norman Walter Raddatz was an alcoholic battling depression, a man who had lost his marriage, his business, his motor home, and finally, his house.

    He was squatting in his foreclosed bungalow, where the power had been cut off for a month. He was a man defeated, with nothing to lose.
    Raddatz, 42, was also filled with rage and hate.

    He was an anti-Semite, who harassed a local Jewish family for a year and a half, bombarding them with hateful messages, and escalating threats and violence, a man who engaged in Facebook conversations with friends about what they called “f-bomb Jews,” conversations that blamed “Jews” for everything from poor city snow removal to bad television programs.

    He was a homophobe, his Facebook pages filled with slurs about “sodomites” and crude jokes about the film Brokeback Mountain.

    And he was a man who despised police, whom he saw as “pigs” and agents of an illegitimate government.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Sad all around. Condolences to everyone effected by this madness.
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    Public funeral of Const. Woodall to be held June 17th. Service to take place at the Shaw Conference Centre.


    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...524/story.html
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    So proud of our city and everyone today.
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    Live feed from CBC - http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nton-1.3116847

    Such a great show of support.
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    With sadness and respect and gratitude to Constable Woodall of the Edmonton Police Service and to his comrades across all services and borders... without security of person there is no freedom and with our freedom we salute you.

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    056 by cdnklc, on Flickr
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    I am so proud to live in Edmonton, I truly am. I am so sad that Const. Woodall had to die. The tribute to him has been wonderful.

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    Last edited by 24karat; 17-06-2015 at 02:06 PM.
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    I'll unleash my cold hearted interior and ask why a cop deserves so much more recognition compared to anyone else who dies tragically?

    This is overblown. A couple weeks ago a young lady was killed in a motorcycle accident when some fool made an improper left turn in front of the bike she was a passenger on. Her name wasn't even released. This guy gets a parade. I don't see either being more or less tragic than the other.
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    ^I have full respect for this officer and his family, bit I've been thinking the same thing. People die tragically young all the time. People die doing dangerous jobs all the time. People die trying to help others far too often, but they don't get the same pomp and ceremony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll unleash my cold hearted interior and ask why a cop deserves so much more recognition compared to anyone else who dies tragically?

    This is overblown. A couple weeks ago a young lady was killed in a motorcycle accident when some fool made an improper left turn in front of the bike she was a passenger on. Her name wasn't even released. This guy gets a parade. I don't see either being more or less tragic than the other.
    do you really not understand?

    yes, death is tragic.

    and accidental death is more tragic.

    and willingly and knowingly exposing yourself to unnecessary death that is not accidental on behalf of others is both more tragic and more heroic.

    and recognizing and honouring that does nothing to diminish the tragedy of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll unleash my cold hearted interior and ask why a cop deserves so much more recognition compared to anyone else who dies tragically?
    If you have to ask the question then chances are you already know the answer. The earthly recognition is nothing to compare to what is in store in heaven for each and everyone of those who have given their lives in service for others but who may not have received any public recognition for it in this life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post

    The earthly recognition is nothing to compare to what is in store in heaven for each and everyone of those who have given their lives in service for others but who may not have received any public recognition for it in this life.
    Could you flesh this theory out a little for those of us unfamiliar with this particular phenomenon?...
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post

    The earthly recognition is nothing to compare to what is in store in heaven for each and everyone of those who have given their lives in service for others but who may not have received any public recognition for it in this life.
    Could you flesh this theory out a little for those of us unfamiliar with this particular phenomenon?...
    Jesus' words as recorded in the the book of John, chapter 15 (read the whole chapter for the context)...
    "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command."

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    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll unleash my cold hearted interior and ask why a cop deserves so much more recognition compared to anyone else who dies tragically?
    If you have to ask the question then chances are you already know the answer. The earthly recognition is nothing to compare to what is in store in heaven for each and everyone of those who have given their lives in service for others but who may not have received any public recognition for it in this life.
    No, I ask the question because I don't understand.

    He put his life on the line and died needlessly and absolutely deserves our respect. This however was a spectacle of absurd proportions for a person who while dying tragically on the job, did not die any more tragically than anyone else doing their job. I would argue that he chose this profession knowing the risks, while, for example, my friend who was crushed on a jobsite when a 797B made a blind right turn and turned the pickup truck he was driving along with him into a pancake, did not.

    One person chose a life with expected risks and died, and we give him a parade and call him a hero with a parade and a week's worth of front-page news coverage. Another died doing a job that had a complete expectation of safety and he was a footnote at the back of the paper.

    When I argue that this trivializes the deaths of others that die doing their jobs, I'm not denouncing Const. Woodall or suggesting he isn't worthy of our praise, but that everyone that dies in the line of work, or not, should be recognized.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  67. #67

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    “Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.”
    John Donne, Meditation XVII - Meditation 17

    Some of us hear what you are saying but it just does not seem to be the time to voice those views - or - maybe it is the right time to voice those views.
    On another note, thank you all who posted pictures. Upon looking at them I see very little diversity in the officers that were marching. Maybe subject for another thread, another time.

    Condolences to the Woodall family and all families that have lost a loved one in the work place.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Chmilz - it's propaganda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roquentin View Post
    Chmilz - it's propaganda
    Yes - for the other police officers. Think about it, if you develop a culture of apathy when an officer dies in a very intentional and deliberate way, what are they going to be thinking when they respond to potentially dangerous situations, which is all the time? Nobody cares about them or their safety.

    A ceremony like this is affirming it's neither normal nor acceptable for a police officer to be murdered doing their job.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 17-06-2015 at 05:30 PM.

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    Remember the memorial for the first 4 Canadian Casualties of the war in Afghanistan? Of course you do, packed Rexall place with the PM leading all the dignitaries in attendance.

    Remember the service for the 15th, 67th, 145th casualties? Neither do I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by edTel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'll unleash my cold hearted interior and ask why a cop deserves so much more recognition compared to anyone else who dies tragically?
    If you have to ask the question then chances are you already know the answer. The earthly recognition is nothing to compare to what is in store in heaven for each and everyone of those who have given their lives in service for others but who may not have received any public recognition for it in this life.
    No, I ask the question because I don't understand.

    He put his life on the line and died needlessly and absolutely deserves our respect. This however was a spectacle of absurd proportions for a person who while dying tragically on the job, did not die any more tragically than anyone else doing their job. I would argue that he chose this profession knowing the risks, while, for example, my friend who was crushed on a jobsite when a 797B made a blind right turn and turned the pickup truck he was driving along with him into a pancake, did not.

    One person chose a life with expected risks and died, and we give him a parade and call him a hero with a parade and a week's worth of front-page news coverage. Another died doing a job that had a complete expectation of safety and he was a footnote at the back of the paper.

    When I argue that this trivializes the deaths of others that die doing their jobs, I'm not denouncing Const. Woodall or suggesting he isn't worthy of our praise, but that everyone that dies in the line of work, or not, should be recognized.
    your friends death was tragic.

    but his job choice was to serve himself and arguably his family. and his death was an accident.

    constable woodall's death was tragic.

    and his job choice was for you and me and our families as well as for him and his family. and his death was not an accident.

    your friend died accidentally in his line of work.

    constable woodall was intentionally murdered in his line of work.

    and recognizing that difference does not trivialize the deaths of others that die doing their jobs.

    and neither does recognizing that today was more than just a tribute to constable woodall. it was also a tribute to others who have died in the service of others as well as themselves - did you not notice some of the "empty spaces" in some of those formations? - and a tribute to those who are still prepared to die in the service of others as well as themselves.
    Last edited by kcantor; 17-06-2015 at 07:04 PM. Reason: typo
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    He did not get a parade. That was a procession of police heading to his funeral. Your motorcycle-riding friend could have had a funeral procession as well. Who stopped you and your motorcycle buddies from organizing a procession? No one. You just didn't organize one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Remember the memorial for the first 4 Canadian Casualties of the war in Afghanistan? Of course you do, packed Rexall place with the PM leading all the dignitaries in attendance.

    Remember the service for the 15th, 67th, 145th casualties? Neither do I.
    yes, i remember the memorial for the first four.

    but you are mistaken if you think it was just for the first four. it was also symbolic for those who were casualties previously and for those who would be casualties subsequently.

    as for the 15th, 65th, 145th casualties? i remember ramp ceremonies in two countries and i remember highways and streets of heroes demonstrations across the country.

    and i remember ceremonies for all of them and more, named and unnamed, every november 11. every year.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  74. #74

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    I often wonder how the families of these fallen officers are compensated for their loss.
    Are police officers and responders required to carry extra life insurance. Const. Goodall being fairly young would not have accumulated much of a pension. I'm sure there will be standard life insurance but that will not last forever.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Remember the memorial for the first 4 Canadian Casualties of the war in Afghanistan? Of course you do, packed Rexall place with the PM leading all the dignitaries in attendance.

    Remember the service for the 15th, 67th, 145th casualties? Neither do I.
    yes, i remember the memorial for the first four.

    but you are mistaken if you think it was just for the first four. it was also symbolic for those who were casualties previously and for those who would be casualties subsequently.

    as for the 15th, 65th, 145th casualties? i remember ramp ceremonies in two countries and i remember highways and streets of heroes demonstrations across the country.

    and i remember ceremonies for all of them and more, named and unnamed, every november 11. every year.

    ...bold, underlined, and italicized for emphasis.

    I get workplace accidents, and even death. I too have seen my share. Yes, workplace deaths are not to be trivialized...

    In fact, isn't there a yearly day of mourning for workplace deaths?

    yes...an actual Federal Government sanctioned and supported ANNUAL EVENT...April 28...complete with city, town, hamlet, and other areas having orientations, parades, commemorative events...etc. I've attended a few.

    The key difference between this, and other occupations, is that the workplace deaths I've seen are more accidents, careless mistakes, and unfortunate incidents. I have yet to see where a co-worker, or contractor, or union, deliberately places another in their sites and murders them...and then people calling it a workplace accident. No, that is murder. Deliberate, deadly malfeasance by the hands of a co-worker, employer, or fellow human is MURDER...not a workplace accident.

    These murders often result in huge outcries, public memorials, demands for change, public processions, rallies at the Legislature/City Hall/Police HQ, etc. Even murders that are not on the workplace generate these same outpouring of emotions...

    Const. Woodall was deliberately sited...targeted...and gunned down. Murder. This is not an accident where he slipped and fell, or had a car accident. Combine that with the extremely infrequent (and thankfully so) occurrence of these incidents in our city, and of course this is shocking. It also drives home to the members of the force that they are vulnerable. You may think it is a "parade", and that is your choice. For them, it is healing and camaraderie.

    Sometimes, I have to shake my head at the logical leaps on this forum.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    I don't think that having a large celebration of life belittles other tragic deaths in any way. Many of the officers attending the procession did so on their own time, meaning they were not being paid. If one did not want to attend the funeral they were in no way obligated to. Arguing that this procession and celebration of life, which thousands of Edmontonians supported, might be "over doing it" is not a valid argument. Anybody can have a large funeral it's just up to you to organize it. It's your prerogative not to be there if you didn't want to but somehow insinuating that everybody should not have been so supportive of their police service is ludicrous.

    I'm so proud of the support that our city has given its police service. It is a stark contrast from something you'd see in the USA where police killings have become normalized. In a world where society is becoming increasingly unfavourable (or at least hesitant) towards police it is nice to have at least one day where we support the officers who protect us. We should be proud of our citizens for rallying together to support each other. It strengthens the notion that murdering police officers should never become common place and that we should never be de-sensitized to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    The key difference between this, and other occupations, is that the workplace deaths I've seen are more accidents, careless mistakes, and unfortunate incidents. I have yet to see where a co-worker, or contractor, or union, deliberately places another in their sites and murders them...and then people calling it a workplace accident. No, that is murder. Deliberate, deadly malfeasance by the hands of a co-worker, employer, or fellow human is MURDER...not a workplace accident.
    Unless of course you're some po' cheechako working at a Loblaw's warehouse.

    Yeah, Top_Dawg forgot their names.

    But he's certain you didn't.

    Nor the parade procession the city put on for them.

    Nor the wheelbarrows of money they threw at their funerals.

    Nor the parks, roads, memorials, and whatever else that were and will continue to be named in their honour.

    And the continuing support their families are getting from the city community.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    Etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Sometimes, I have to shake my head at the logical leaps on this forum.
    Yeah, so does Top_Dawg.

    The cornholio crew on here is always so correct, so regal, so noble, so thoroughbred, so beyond reproach...

    Even when they talk outta deir azz they're spewing sunshine.
    Last edited by Top_Dawg; 18-06-2015 at 08:56 AM.

  78. #78
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    As much as I believe that this is a discussion that is absolutely worth having if only as an academic exercise in psychology/sociology, it is in poor taste to do so in this thread.

    A discussion of the value and/or hypocrisy of public mourning for private citizens doesn't belong in a thread about one specific death, loss, and memorial.

    Admin, could we split this off?

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    I don't think that having a large celebration of life belittles other tragic deaths in any way. Many of the officers attending the procession did so on their own time, meaning they were not being paid. If one did not want to attend the funeral they were in no way obligated to. Arguing that this procession and celebration of life, which thousands of Edmontonians supported, might be "over doing it" is not a valid argument. Anybody can have a large funeral it's just up to you to organize it. It's your prerogative not to be there if you didn't want to but somehow insinuating that everybody should not have been so supportive of their police service is ludicrous.

    I'm so proud of the support that our city has given its police service. It is a stark contrast from something you'd see in the USA where police killings have become normalized. In a world where society is becoming increasingly unfavourable (or at least hesitant) towards police it is nice to have at least one day where we support the officers who protect us. We should be proud of our citizens for rallying together to support each other. It strengthens the notion that murdering police officers should never become common place and that we should never be de-sensitized to it.
    Don't make it sound so noble that the officers that took time out of their own day to go to Const. Woodall's funeral are any different from the rest of the public. I should imagine we have all taken time out of our day to go to funerals of work mates. And don't think for one moment that if an off duty officer did not go that the brass would not notice and that it would be filed away in the corners of some supervisors mind. There would be no 'I just want to veg out on my day off, in my sweats, instead of going to the funeral'.
    As for the rest of us not organizing big funerals. Well, it's a bit different when you have to pay for the funeral yourself rather than the taxpayers.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  80. #80

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    ‘She was blue’: Young woman found dead, bound in a shopping cart in an Edmonton alley
    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...edmonton-alley


    Equally tragic, yet it doesn't even appear on the Journal cop parade website anymore. Where's her week of coverage? Oh, right, she's probably just some expendable street trash, right? Nobody will miss her. The public knew as much about the cop as it did this person - sweet f--k all. Why does one get more public recognition than the other?

    The parade for the cop is nothing but propaganda by the force and unions to help wank off a bit of the scrutiny falling on police forces for being bullies and abusing power.

    Last year over a hundred workers died on jobsites, and thousands die tragically in other circumstances. Hell, four people died at Suncor's site in 2014, as did four working at a Loblaw's warehouse. EPS had what, two fatalities in as many decades? What's tragic is that in a career with expected risks, less people die than in careers where you have a full expectation of living and should not be fearing death at all.

    How about an awareness parade for that?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    ^ Wow, most of your posts are borderline trash but this one takes the cake. You have somehow outdone yourself, slow clap clap clap.

    I wish there was a no thanks button.

  82. #82

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    ^What about it was trash? If we're going to debate it, at least offer a counterpoint.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    ^^Then again, I have to wonder just how high the horses are that some posters on here ride.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    The key difference between this, and other occupations, is that the workplace deaths I've seen are more accidents, careless mistakes, and unfortunate incidents. I have yet to see where a co-worker, or contractor, or union, deliberately places another in their sites and murders them...and then people calling it a workplace accident. No, that is murder. Deliberate, deadly malfeasance by the hands of a co-worker, employer, or fellow human is MURDER...not a workplace accident.
    Unless of course you're some po' cheechako working at a Loblaw's warehouse.

    Yeah, Top_Dawg forgot their names.

    But he's certain you didn't.

    Nor the parade procession the city put on for them.

    Nor the wheelbarrows of money they threw at their funerals.

    Nor the parks, roads, memorials, and whatever else that were and will continue to be named in their honour.

    And the continuing support their families are getting from the city community.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    Etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Sometimes, I have to shake my head at the logical leaps on this forum.
    Yeah, so does Top_Dawg.

    The cornholio crew on here is always so correct, so regal, so noble, so thoroughbred, so beyond reproach...

    Even when they talk outta deir azz they're spewing sunshine.
    their names were fitzroy harris and thierno bah.

    there was financial support from their employer and the public ( http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/03/0...stabbing-spree ).

    there were public services ( http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/03/0...tabbing-victim ).

    and despite your insinuation, they were not forgotten either ( http://globalnews.ca/news/1856645/lo...y-in-edmonton/ ) except perhaps by you.

    what happened to these men was tragic but you seem to miss the same point as Chmilz. when something like this does happens to you or your family or your coworkers or your friends, do you expect them to call you or your friendly neighborhood grocer or the edmonton police service?

    and i agree with highlander - half of the discussion in this thread doesn't belong in this thread. particularly if it is a discussion about courtesy and respect - both of which are far too lacking sometimes.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The parade for the cop is nothing but propaganda by the force and unions to help wank off a bit of the scrutiny falling on police forces for being bullies and abusing power.
    So you use this event to make a point about your dislike for unions by arguing they are using a funeral for someone who took on a profession to keep your @ss safe and using it as a union propaganda?

    My opinion is that all those officers marched to mourn their fellow member of police force and to support his wife and two sons.

    You are the only donkey's exit who is making it about the unions.

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    ^^



    Uh...yeah.

    So you have third world immigrants.

    Language barrier...cultural barrier...financially burdened.

    Work their balls off in lower income jobs.

    Only to get murdered.

    And their employer throws a few bucks at the families and sets up a trust fund which can realistically be expected to yield enough money for them to order pizza.

    And tip the driver.

    Oh yeah and: ' The family has a Pay Pal account set up on a memorial website at www.rememberingfitzroyharris.com. '

    Presumably to help with funeral costs.

    On the other hand.

    You have a police constable.

    With all the advantages.

    Income puts him on the sunshine list.

    Working a job where ( if he's like most cops ) in a typical twelve hour shift he would routinely do a whopping one hour and fifteen minutes of what could be considered work.

    Gets murdered.

    And the city shovels wheelbarrows of public money for a very public funeral to honor him and comfort his family.

    Somehow Top_Dawg doubts they will be setting up a PayPal account.


    Because it is the self-anointed elites who decide which lives are more equal than others.

    But Top_Dawg is missing the point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    ...

    But Top_Dawg is missing the point.

    ...
    well at least you got that right.

    you certainly are.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Now that the theatrical dog and pony show is over and done with, will there be any public inquiry into how this incident was allowed to escalate to the degree it did?.. A perpetrator with multiple known mental health and anti social issues, armed to the teeth, holed up in a residential area...What could possibly go wrong right?...

    The only conclusion one can draw from what appears to have transpired, is that it was a miracle there were only two fatalities.
    Last edited by expat; 18-06-2015 at 04:30 PM.
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    ^Good point.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    ...

    But Top_Dawg is missing the point.

    ...
    well at least you got that right.

    you certainly are.
    Well, some people take the head in the clouds, high and mighty rod up arse politically correct route. Other more timid folk take the middle ground. Then some just call it like they see it.
    Are we all right or all wrong, or does it fall somewhere in between.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  91. #91

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    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.

  92. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    I can name lots of jobs that are dangerous. For instance, a cab driver has a bigger chance of getting killed on the job than a cop. I don't think even cops go to work thinking that might be their last day. If everyone though that it was going to be their last day on the job the world would be stuck in inertia. Police officers know the risks of that particular job (including murder) just like any other person who does high risk work. Let's hope EPS's learns from this and maybe they will do these types of arrests differently. Although I do recognize that every eventuality cannot be foreseen.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    My wife... That's why I'm more concerned with the causes and prevention of this kind of incident than I am with patronizing, after the event, sentimental drivel.

    Just to add, your, "every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last" line is pure hyperbole you've picked up from the movies. But yes, there is an element of calculated risk associated with certain professions.
    Last edited by expat; 18-06-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    In 25 years only two EPS's members have been killed. Since 1918 four EPS members have been gunned down in the line of duty. Four EPS officers in 97 years. How are the stats looking now.

    http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/06/0...e-line-of-duty

    P.S. Please provide the source of your statistics. Just a one page web-site and not a thesis.
    Last edited by Gemini; 18-06-2015 at 05:53 PM.
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    It was amazing to watch all those guys march past Tim Hortons without so much as a flinch. Courage.

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Just to add, your, "every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last" line is pure hyperbole you've picked up from the movies. But yes, there is an element of calculated risk associated with certain professions.
    Fine, instead of every day, every time you've been spit on, kicked, punched, threatened, cursed at...

    Of course there should and will be a full review of the protocols and how incidents like it can be prevented in the future. That has nothing to do with the ceremony.

    And honouring police officers brutally murdered in the line of duty is not arguing to trivialize the deaths of other workers. I would argue it's you guys who are doing the opposite. You are perceiving the deaths of others as trivialized, to suggest the death of the police officer should not be honoured.

    Anyways, this is a ridiculous conversation. If you don't like the funeral procession, don't go. It's obviously important to the people who showed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    Suncor employs a few thousand workers at it's Ft McMurray sites and FOUR people died there in 2014 alone.

    We don't even know how many deaths while on the job occurred in those hundreds of thousands of jobs you quoted. Why is that? That's my point. One cop dies and we go ballistic, when hundreds of workers die on the job every year in other industries and it's mentioned barely as a statistic. They were living, breathing people with families too. It's not like they didn't touch the lives of many people, and I would argue a lot of them probably did more for more people than a cop did. I have more way more interactions with strangers in a meaningful way in my career than a cop does. When I kick it will I get a parade because of my ultra mega contributions? Sure won't. I don't want one. I just want everyone to get equal recognition. No cop is worth more than anyone else. We don't live in a class based society.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    Oh yes, even with the made up statistic it would be totally the same thing, because every time a cop gets hurt OH&S shuts down their worksite. A cop was brutally murdered last week, so no patrols for the next couple weeks.

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