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Thread: Edmonton Police officers shot

  1. #101

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    Wow, don't let that get out that there are no patrols for the next couple of weeks. The crooks will have a field day.
    Anyway, who believes 'made up statistics'. We like to see the source of the statistics people quote.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Wow, don't let that get out that there are no patrols for the next couple of weeks. The crooks will have a field day.
    Anyway, who believes 'made up statistics'. We like to see the source of the statistics people quote.
    I was responding in a snarky sarcastic way to the claim that working in the oilfields in Fort Mac is hundreds of times more dangerous than policing. Obviously policing had to go on the next day as if nothing happened the day before. OH&S will shut down a work place if it's not safe to work, they will not shut down policing because it's not safe to perform.

    Workplace accidents are tragic. Workers lives are no less important than police officers lives, which are no less important than street workers lives, or anyone else's lives. I don't want to trivialize any of them. To lose your life, no matter what the circumstances, is to lose everything.

    If the statistic is as bad as claimed, then maybe the unions should be doing more to raise awareness. Maybe they should be having a funeral procession every time a worker is killed on the job. Maybe OH&S should automatically be shutting down worksites every time a worker is killed until a full investigation is completed.

    But we all know it's not as simple as that, and the majority of accidents no matter how tragic, were also preventable , which makes them even more tragic, but certainly not comparable to being intentionally murdered on the job for just doing it.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 18-06-2015 at 08:26 PM.

  3. #103

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    So what? They do shut it down, and yet people still die. At a disgustingly higher rate than police - or any other first responders for that matter. I'm not getting your point.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    So what? They do shut it down, and yet people still die. At a disgustingly higher rate than police - or any other first responders for that matter. I'm not getting your point.
    What is your point? People wanted to support the police so they went out. Those who didn't want to go didn't... Just because you don't want to support the police and you want others to think like you doesn't mean it's going to happen. Or am I missing what you're trying to get at?

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    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Last edited by 24karat; 19-06-2015 at 10:21 AM.
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    This thread... Wtf am I even reading?
    be offended! figure out why later...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    This thread... Wtf am I even reading?
    sad only scratches the surface.

    it almost cries for the now gone "city of champions" signs to be replaced with "city of jerks".

    one can only hope that the support and gratitude represented by the blue ribbons and by those that attended the memorial wednesday - whether in person or in thought - is a more accurate representation of our city than too much of this thread does.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    It doess me as well, the outpouring of grief I saw on TV makes up for these lame remarks
    Last edited by H.L.; 19-06-2015 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #109

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    A letter written by -

    Darryl T. Davies, Criminologist, Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Carleton University, Ottawa
    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/lette..._funerals.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Why?.. The fact that varying positions are being voiced is something to celebrate. It demonstrates we are lucky enough to live in a society that allows and, to an extent encourages the free flow of differing opinions. Which in reality, is a far greater tribute to officer Woodall and his colleagues than any parade could ever be.

    Healthy debate provides checks and balances, without which, the sight of armed, uniformed men marching down main street could one day represent something you may not endorse quite so enthusiastically.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  11. #111

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    There was nothing good about Woodall's death.

    But the fact that people are aggressively celebrating grief at his death makes me queasy.

    Please find something positive and light to celebrate.

  12. #112

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    The problem I have is that the person being arrested was assumed to be a member of a 'cult' given what he had posted on Facebook. In other words, being accused of a 'thought crime'. What would have happened to the person being investigated if he co-oprerated with the police and had no firearms in his house? What was the charge, and what was the punishment?

    It is very unfortunate in how things ended up, and I give condolences to the friends and family of the police officer that was killed.

    Having said that, those are the risks police face when doing their job and they are fully aware of that. The funeral that was given was a funeral that would be given to someone who, invented something, was famous, or made society better for us all. It is not the kind of funeral you would give to an ordinary police officer.

    To me, it looks like this funeral was planned in advance, waiting for the next casualty to go in effect. There were video screens set up in 3 locations in the city, obviously someone thought thousands would show up. It makes me wonder if there is a hidden motive to use the funeral to glamorize the police fighting thought crime.

    They should have had a normal funeral. A funeral that has attendance filling the building, spilling onto the streets is just as good, and probably better than a massive parade going down the street with video screens set up everywhere.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  13. #113

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    The problem I have is that the person being arrested was assumed to be a member of a 'cult' given what he had posted on Facebook. In other words, being accused of a 'thought crime'.
    I recall that the police went to arrest the guy for harrassment - online harrassment of an individual and his family, also I recall there was mention of physical violence against the person(s) being harrassed.

    That could be considered as somewhat more than "thought crime"....

  14. #114

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    I should imagine that the Canadian system for police funerals is very like the American system.

    http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/m...issue_id=52006
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  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Unless of course you're some po' cheechako working at a Loblaw's warehouse.

    Yeah, Top_Dawg forgot their names.

    But he's certain you didn't.

    Nor the parade procession the city put on for them.

    Nor the wheelbarrows of money they threw at their funerals.

    Nor the parks, roads, memorials, and whatever else that were and will continue to be named in their honour.

    And the continuing support their families are getting from the city community.

    Etc.

    Etc.

    Etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Sometimes, I have to shake my head at the logical leaps on this forum.
    Yeah, so does Top_Dawg.

    The cornholio crew on here is always so correct, so regal, so noble, so thoroughbred, so beyond reproach...

    Even when they talk outta deir azz they're spewing sunshine.
    The loblaws instance was horrid and you are correct that this tragic instance wasn't dealt with in the same manner nor were there similar gestures made to the survivors and children and families surviving the tragedy. Dying at work for low wages, limited benefits and the same warehouse, same employer, are advertising for employees in any publication, any method, and wondering why people don't want to work there.

    A worse one imo was the G4S shooting at Hubmall with armored staff being gunned down by their own armed coworker through improper screening by a multinational associated with endless controversy all over the globe.
    This despicable firm which shouldn't even be allowed to operate in the civilized world is rejecting the lawsuit and any claims of culpability.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Armou...144/story.html


    G4S also claims that, technically, it was not the employer of either Baumgartner or Ilesic because the company was amalgamated into security firm GardaWorld in a 2014 acquisition.
    The company is no longer “G4S Cash Solutions” and is now “G4S Secure Solutions,” and did not have any role in the employment, training or supervision of Baumgartner, the document states.
    What a despicable statement of defense. Change name, evade responsibility, carry on as the very same corporate operation but only with ongoing limited responsibility.

    Was there outrage expressed over this. Sympathy for those suffering who are now being raked over the coals by a multibillion buck globalnational?

    That should elicit absolute disgust. its barely getting print.

    Not even going into detail on what ethical outrage their should be in such global security/policing firms being allowed to do business here in the first place.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-06-2015 at 03:58 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  16. #116

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    Another anomaly, your more likely to die being a Ward of the Alberta Government than a police officer. That's a sad fact to put forward.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Alber...988/story.html

    Of the 145 children who died in the care of the Alberta government between 1999 and 2013, 53 cases merited a public fatality inquiry or a documented in-depth internal review. When those reviews issued recommendations to prevent future deaths, there was no system in place to track them, or to ensure they were implemented.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    This thread... Wtf am I even reading?
    sad only scratches the surface.

    it almost cries for the now gone "city of champions" signs to be replaced with "city of jerks".

    one can only hope that the support and gratitude represented by the blue ribbons and by those that attended the memorial wednesday - whether in person or in thought - is a more accurate representation of our city than too much of this thread does.
    'city of jerks'

    This comment, out of all the comments on this thread, really bothered me. There was no one on this thread who disrespected the death of Const. Goodall. There were people who stated that a police job is no more dangerous than any other job, the stats back that up and it's not a lie. And, unfortunately there are others that get murdered on the job, that's were the term "going postal" came from.We know police potentially face danger on the job but that's not to say it's on every call they go to. Same as any first responder. They also know those risks when they apply for the job. Same as military, deep sea divers, pilots, construction workers, health workers and a whole slew of other occupations. Unfortunately weather you get killed accidently or murdered your still dead at the end of the day. As for the actual funeral itself. The service at the Conference Centre was a fine tribute. I suppose it's nothing less than we would want for ourselves or are family members. The police procession (parade) did not invoke propaganda, power etc. for me. What I did notice was that the police forces that attended had very little diversity in them. A handful of women and maybe 2 minority faces. I don't make the rules up but what I think would have been nice instead of a pomp and ceremony parade is that each and every officer who attended the funeral had of lined up on the sidewalk with the general public. When they hearst drove by the officers and public followed it to the conference centre. The overflow from the centre could have watched the ceremony together on the big screen TV's. Now, I think a picture like that with the police and public together would have had a far more powerful impact than a parade. Everyone has seen parades, even Macy's have them. As for Mrs. Woodall, their two boys and his mother, father (he was their only child). I hope that Mrs. Woodall is compensated enough that she does not have to work (if she does not want to) while her boys are growing. She has no immediate family living in Edmonton. She will have to be a father and a mother to her children and I hope she can be there for them when they come home from school, kick their first soccer ball of the season, scrap their knees and need comfort from their loss. I would wish that on any mother who has lost her husband or any father who has lost a wife.

    Instead of taking the high road and spouting 'city of jerks' maybe take time out and actually listen to others opinions. Blue ribbons are not really a very good representation of how people mourn. Realize that they are not disrespecting Const. Woodall's death. There trying to say all of us are equal. One human life taken or lost is not any less than the other. One human gets a ceremony and a parade and the rest get a generic day of mourning. What's wrong with questioning or discussing that.
    Last edited by Gemini; 20-06-2015 at 02:20 PM.
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    I would say that is your best post ever Gemini.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    Suncor employs a few thousand workers at it's Ft McMurray sites and FOUR people died there in 2014 alone.

    We don't even know how many deaths while on the job occurred in those hundreds of thousands of jobs you quoted. Why is that? That's my point. One cop dies and we go ballistic, when hundreds of workers die on the job every year in other industries and it's mentioned barely as a statistic. They were living, breathing people with families too. It's not like they didn't touch the lives of many people, and I would argue a lot of them probably did more for more people than a cop did. I have more way more interactions with strangers in a meaningful way in my career than a cop does. When I kick it will I get a parade because of my ultra mega contributions? Sure won't. I don't want one. I just want everyone to get equal recognition. No cop is worth more than anyone else. We don't live in a class based society.
    this has nothing to do with class - although some might say this thread lacks more than its share.

    it has nothing to do with work place accidents either.

    it is about being murdered at work not because of how your job or someone else's job was done but because of what the job is.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    This thread... Wtf am I even reading?
    sad only scratches the surface.

    it almost cries for the now gone "city of champions" signs to be replaced with "city of jerks".

    one can only hope that the support and gratitude represented by the blue ribbons and by those that attended the memorial wednesday - whether in person or in thought - is a more accurate representation of our city than too much of this thread does.
    'city of jerks'

    This comment, out of all the comments on this thread, really bothered me. There was no one on this thread who disrespected the death of Const. Goodall. There were people who stated that a police job is no more dangerous than any other job, the stats back that up and it's not a lie. And, unfortunately there are others that get murdered on the job, that's were the term "going postal" came from.We know police potentially face danger on the job but that's not to say it's on every call they go to. Same as any first responder. They also know those risks when they apply for the job. Same as military, deep sea divers, pilots, construction workers, health workers and a whole slew of other occupations. Unfortunately weather you get killed accidently or murdered your still dead at the end of the day. As for the actual funeral itself. The service at the Conference Centre was a fine tribute. I suppose it's nothing less than we would want for ourselves or are family members. The police procession (parade) did not invoke propaganda, power etc. for me. What I did notice was that the police forces that attended had very little diversity in them. A handful of women and maybe 2 minority faces. I don't make the rules up but what I think would have been nice instead of a pomp and ceremony parade is that each and every officer who attended the funeral had of lined up on the sidewalk with the general public. When they hearst drove by the officers and public followed it to the conference centre. The overflow from the centre could have watched the ceremony together on the big screen TV's. Now, I think a picture like that with the police and public together would have had a far more powerful impact than a parade. Everyone has seen parades, even Macy's have them. As for Mrs. Woodall, their two boys and his mother, father (he was their only child). I hope that Mrs. Woodall is compensated enough that she does not have to work (if she does not want to) while her boys are growing. She has no immediate family living in Edmonton. She will have to be a father and a mother to her children and I hope she can be there for them when they come home from school, kick their first soccer ball of the season, scrap their knees and need comfort from their loss. I would wish that on any mother who has lost her husband or any father who has lost a wife.

    Instead of taking the high road and spouting 'city of jerks' maybe take time out and actually listen to others opinions. Blue ribbons are not really a very good representation of how people mourn. Realize that they are not disrespecting Const. Woodall's death. There trying to say all of us are equal. One human life taken or lost is not any less than the other. One human gets a ceremony and a parade and the rest get a generic day of mourning. What's wrong with questioning or discussing that.
    there is nothing wrong with questioning or discussing that. start a thread for that if that's the discussion you want. This thread was about the officers who were shot.
    Last edited by kcantor; 21-06-2015 at 08:23 AM. Reason: incomplete duplicate
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 24karat View Post
    The direction this thread has gone makes me sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by richardW View Post
    This thread... Wtf am I even reading?
    sad only scratches the surface.

    it almost cries for the now gone "city of champions" signs to be replaced with "city of jerks".

    one can only hope that the support and gratitude represented by the blue ribbons and by those that attended the memorial wednesday - whether in person or in thought - is a more accurate representation of our city than too much of this thread does.
    'city of jerks'

    This comment, out of all the comments on this thread, really bothered me. There was no one on this thread who disrespected the death of Const. Goodall. There were people who stated that a police job is no more dangerous than any other job, the stats back that up and it's not a lie. And, unfortunately there are others that get murdered on the job, that's were the term "going postal" came from.We know police potentially face danger on the job but that's not to say it's on every call they go to. Same as any first responder. They also know those risks when they apply for the job. Same as military, deep sea divers, pilots, construction workers, health workers and a whole slew of other occupations. Unfortunately weather you get killed accidently or murdered your still dead at the end of the day. As for the actual funeral itself. The service at the Conference Centre was a fine tribute. I suppose it's nothing less than we would want for ourselves or are family members. The police procession (parade) did not invoke propaganda, power etc. for me. What I did notice was that the police forces that attended had very little diversity in them. A handful of women and maybe 2 minority faces. I don't make the rules up but what I think would have been nice instead of a pomp and ceremony parade is that each and every officer who attended the funeral had of lined up on the sidewalk with the general public. When they hearst drove by the officers and public followed it to the conference centre. The overflow from the centre could have watched the ceremony together on the big screen TV's. Now, I think a picture like that with the police and public together would have had a far more powerful impact than a parade. Everyone has seen parades, even Macy's have them. As for Mrs. Woodall, their two boys and his mother, father (he was their only child). I hope that Mrs. Woodall is compensated enough that she does not have to work (if she does not want to) while her boys are growing. She has no immediate family living in Edmonton. She will have to be a father and a mother to her children and I hope she can be there for them when they come home from school, kick their first soccer ball of the season, scrap their knees and need comfort from their loss. I would wish that on any mother who has lost her husband or any father who has lost a wife.

    Instead of taking the high road and spouting 'city of jerks' maybe take time out and actually listen to others opinions. Blue ribbons are not really a very good representation of how people mourn. Realize that they are not disrespecting Const. Woodall's death. There trying to say all of us are equal. One human life taken or lost is not any less than the other. One human gets a ceremony and a parade and the rest get a generic day of mourning. What's wrong with questioning or discussing that.
    there is nothing wrong with questioning or discussing that. start a thread for that if that's the discussion you want. this thread was about the officers who were shot. it deteriorated into accusations not that some should be shown more respect but that some should be shown less. a very different path to equality as the end result is not equal respect but none at all.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    Suncor employs a few thousand workers at it's Ft McMurray sites and FOUR people died there in 2014 alone.

    We don't even know how many deaths while on the job occurred in those hundreds of thousands of jobs you quoted. Why is that? That's my point. One cop dies and we go ballistic, when hundreds of workers die on the job every year in other industries and it's mentioned barely as a statistic. They were living, breathing people with families too. It's not like they didn't touch the lives of many people, and I would argue a lot of them probably did more for more people than a cop did. I have more way more interactions with strangers in a meaningful way in my career than a cop does. When I kick it will I get a parade because of my ultra mega contributions? Sure won't. I don't want one. I just want everyone to get equal recognition. No cop is worth more than anyone else. We don't live in a class based society.
    this has nothing to do with class - although some might say this thread lacks more than its share.

    it has nothing to do with work place accidents either.

    it is about being murdered at work not because of how your job or someone else's job was done but because of what the job is.
    There is a difference as Ken had pointed out. Not one other line of work, except the army and correctional officers, I can think of puts workers in a situation where every day they are required to interact with other people that will purposefully cause them harm and may take their lives so the rest of us don't have to have those interactions.
    That's the sacrifice on behalf of others and that's the difference. I don't see why you can't understand that.

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    Suncor employs a few thousand workers at it's Ft McMurray sites and FOUR people died there in 2014 alone.

    We don't even know how many deaths while on the job occurred in those hundreds of thousands of jobs you quoted. Why is that? That's my point. One cop dies and we go ballistic, when hundreds of workers die on the job every year in other industries and it's mentioned barely as a statistic. They were living, breathing people with families too. It's not like they didn't touch the lives of many people, and I would argue a lot of them probably did more for more people than a cop did. I have more way more interactions with strangers in a meaningful way in my career than a cop does. When I kick it will I get a parade because of my ultra mega contributions? Sure won't. I don't want one. I just want everyone to get equal recognition. No cop is worth more than anyone else. We don't live in a class based society.
    this has nothing to do with class - although some might say this thread lacks more than its share.

    it has nothing to do with work place accidents either.

    it is about being murdered at work not because of how your job or someone else's job was done but because of what the job is.
    There is a difference as Ken had pointed out. Not one other line of work, except the army and correctional officers, I can think of puts workers in a situation where every day they are required to interact with other people that will purposefully cause them harm and may take their lives so the rest of us don't have to have those interactions.
    That's the sacrifice on behalf of others and that's the difference. I don't see why you can't understand that.
    Probably the same reason you can't see that policing is incredibly safer than a significant number of other occupations. Police aren't sacrificing anything. The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  24. #124

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    It's a forum, how many threads have been posted deviated from the original premise. Hundreds I should imagine. As for the thread deteriorating into accusations, maybe look in the mirror.I never once got the impression on this thread there was no respect for Const. Woodall's death, not once did anyone pit his death against another. Millions upon millions of people are put on this earth and most of them are valuable, contributing members of society. Their contribution is no less or no greater than anyone else. Police work has the 'potential' of danger but that danger is not present on every call. Every cop that takes the job is aware of that 'potential' of danger. They must look at the odds, decide the 'potential' of danger is worth the risk then apply. They are not forced into the profession. They are paid very well for the job they do. The fact that the EPS has had four members killed in 97 years speaks volumes of how well they have policed and protected their members. Maybe they should hold a parade for that.
    Last edited by Gemini; 20-06-2015 at 05:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Not one other line of work, except the army and correctional officers, I can think of puts workers in a situation where every day they are required to interact with other people that will purposefully cause them harm and may take their lives so the rest of us don't have to have those interactions.
    That's the sacrifice on behalf of others and that's the difference. I don't see why you can't understand that.
    These are calculated risks, just as other careers have associated risk factors. No one joins up not knowing there is a possibility of confrontation with "people that will purposefully cause them harm".

    This is not conscription, it's a choice, and if at any point an officer decides it's not for them, they are free to resign and work in a florists.

    It's a job, plain and simple, and it would be really helpful if some people here took the time to question their rather fixed Pavlovian, uniform = hero auto-response.
    Last edited by expat; 21-06-2015 at 12:42 AM.
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    Yes, you're right, it is a choice. That's why I think we should celebrate the fact that we have men and women brave enough to choose to be cops. I don't know why anyone would want to be a cop. It may not be "the most dangerous" but it is dangerous enough. It is one of the only jobs where it is generally acceptable for the public to antagonize, provoke, and resist you. People who join law enforcement typically do so because they want to serve others. Cst. Woodall deserved a proper send off and he got one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    I'm curious, how many of you work in jobs where every day you go to work you have it in the back of your head it might be your last? Or if you are a family member of someone who does? Not because of a tragic accident, but because of deliberate violence and murder because of what your profession stands for.
    Oilsands workers are hundreds times more likely to die at work than cops, based on the actual numbers of people dying. That fact alone makes your typical oilfield worker more courageous than a cop.
    are you serious???

    there are 64,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to manufacturing, utilities.

    there are 134,000 plus albertans working in jobs unique to primary industries.

    there are 415,000 plus albertans working in jobs in trades, transport and equipment operator and related jobs.

    that's a total of more than 613,000 workers.

    and that's by occupation, not by industry so there are no sales or service or professional or management jobs in that total.

    there are approximately 5,250 police officers in the entire province of alberta.

    that's quite the comparable employment pool you're putting forward to judge relative risk based on the tasks being undertaken. i think perchance you're doing nothing more than posting your own prejudices rather than any providing any meaningful odds or statistics.
    Suncor employs a few thousand workers at it's Ft McMurray sites and FOUR people died there in 2014 alone.

    We don't even know how many deaths while on the job occurred in those hundreds of thousands of jobs you quoted. Why is that? That's my point. One cop dies and we go ballistic, when hundreds of workers die on the job every year in other industries and it's mentioned barely as a statistic. They were living, breathing people with families too. It's not like they didn't touch the lives of many people, and I would argue a lot of them probably did more for more people than a cop did. I have more way more interactions with strangers in a meaningful way in my career than a cop does. When I kick it will I get a parade because of my ultra mega contributions? Sure won't. I don't want one. I just want everyone to get equal recognition. No cop is worth more than anyone else. We don't live in a class based society.
    this has nothing to do with class - although some might say this thread lacks more than its share.

    it has nothing to do with work place accidents either.

    it is about being murdered at work not because of how your job or someone else's job was done but because of what the job is.
    There is a difference as Ken had pointed out. Not one other line of work, except the army and correctional officers, I can think of puts workers in a situation where every day they are required to interact with other people that will purposefully cause them harm and may take their lives so the rest of us don't have to have those interactions.
    That's the sacrifice on behalf of others and that's the difference. I don't see why you can't understand that.
    Probably the same reason you can't see that policing is incredibly safer than a significant number of other occupations. Police aren't sacrificing anything. The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    firstly you equated accidents with murder.

    now you're equating harm to death. harm would include being run over, stabbed, fought, spat on, yelled at, ostracized... all of which are probably expected if not experienced pretty much daily. all of which lead to [deleted], ptsd and suicide. yeah, that's all incredibly safe with no harm at all.
    Last edited by kcantor; 21-06-2015 at 10:55 PM. Reason: deleted reference to divorce rates for lack of definitive statistical data
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    I see someone had removed a lot of blue ribbons from streetlight poles on 23rd Ave and just left them on the ground.
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  29. #129

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    ^^Amazingly, though, when the data was actually compiled and analyzed, researchers discovered that the opposite is true. Police officers actually have a divorce rate that is lower than the national average and, in fact, are closer to the bottom of the list when it comes to the correlation between occupations and divorce.
    http://criminologycareers.about.com/...To-Divorce.htm

    Again we are getting statements by posters written with no facts to back them. What this does is just spread the same miss information and myths about the true statistics. Please, if you are hell bent on not proving yourself wrong supply the data to back up your rhetoric.
    Last edited by Gemini; 21-06-2015 at 11:19 AM.
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  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Yes, you're right, it is a choice. That's why I think we should celebrate the fact that we have men and women brave enough to choose to be cops. I don't know why anyone would want to be a cop. It may not be "the most dangerous" but it is dangerous enough. It is one of the only jobs where it is generally acceptable for the public to antagonize, provoke, and resist you. People who join law enforcement typically do so because they want to serve others. Cst. Woodall deserved a proper send off and he got one.
    While I accept all this and an on different occasions would be the one saying it something different in these events is starting to occur. Something that has some unpleasant and somewhat disturbing undertones. Its that the degree and fervor of these "celebrations" of life and death become overblown displays bordering on militaristic regalia and parades of thousands in uniforms almost as if a show of force. We had hundreds, maybe thousands of cops, law enforcement personnel from all over the continent and other parts of the world here participating.

    Its fine for the police to consider themselves a fraternity, a brotherhood, a society, but the combination of role of authority and the show of power in these events is a little offputting and disconcerting,( in several comments in papers people are even using the term ostentatious) . In the degree of support for a comrade (I'll use that term because it fits) it evokes some one upmanship and degree of connection that wouldn't exist in any other profession but which also arguably connotes to a feeling and degree of "us and them" visualization or mindset that increasingly takes place in such communities. I dare say policing would be better if the degree of the latter thought, and which evokes the attendance of thousands to funerals, wasn't so salient and powerful. Theres a degree to which it is that suggests a chasm between members and greater society. With a watchful eye being cast on the latter, maybe even on posts like this. Its easily argued that a fraternity that gather around the world each time a brother falls must start thinking that brothers are falling all over the place and would have a very distorted sense of the dangers of the profession and which in turn impacts how police forces interact with the society they serve.

    Really there were even several disturbing comments from police officers attending this from outside this jurisdiction about how often they are "having to come here" for these police funerals. As if suggesting something untoward about out City. Or about its population and predisposition.

    Anybody can flame away if you must.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-06-2015 at 11:46 AM.
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  31. #131

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    Seems to me like 'an iron fist in a velvet glove' approach. I disliked the EPStrong slogan. If the public played such a big part in all this the slogan should have been EdmontonStrong or RIP. As for the public, of those who did want to pay their respects with blue ribbons, teddy bears, attend the parade, baked goods to police stations, donations etc. If it makes them feel a part of the process and helps them in their grief it's a not a bad thing. The media are bad for hyping things like 'we all love Const. Woodall and his family' etc. Love is a personal thing, I did not know them personally. That's not to say I would not have liked them if I met them but to say 'love them' when one knows them on a superficial level is just OTT.
    Let's hope we do not have to go through this again.
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    ^I'm okay with that, seems reasonable.

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    ^Holy Sh*t, I think I'm gonna pass out.
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  34. #134

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    One of the odd things in this whole episode is the degree of angry investment and fervor in all of this.

    Actually had a neighbor ask me why I didn't have a blue ribbon on my front lawn. Surreal moment.

    Being that its a neighbor that is always in other peoples business I stated flatly, well, possibly because I don't have a light standard or traffic signpost on my front lawn then walked away. Reality is I wouldn't have one anyway and thought it a silly and unnecessary gesture. Kind of like with a your with us or against us narrative. Next thing I know people will want me to be a star bellied sneetch...(some older people might get that)

    But that people would actually ask a question like 'why don't you have the blue ribbon" suggests some people taking this stuff way more seriously than maybe they should. An EPS constable gets shot here every 25yrs. Not like its something neighbors need to be drawing lines on.

    Theres a certain self righteousness about this whole saga, and as exhibited even in this thread that has been an off the hook angry kind of response.

    Time to settle it down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    Yes, you're right, it is a choice. That's why I think we should celebrate the fact that we have men and women brave enough to choose to be cops. I don't know why anyone would want to be a cop. It may not be "the most dangerous" but it is dangerous enough. It is one of the only jobs where it is generally acceptable for the public to antagonize, provoke, and resist you. People who join law enforcement typically do so because they want to serve others. Cst. Woodall deserved a proper send off and he got one.
    The naivety and sentimentality of that statement is breathtaking.
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  36. #136

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    ^The 'city of jerks' response came from those that thought certain posters were not mourning or showing respect the way they wanted people to. If we didn't mourn or show respect the same way they did our opinions did not count. Lawd forbid you cross the line and question the way things are done. It's the same as your neighbor, if the ultimate sign of respect and mourning was a 2 inch blue ribbon for her then let her own it, but she has no right telling other people what to do. I should imagine you are now off her Xmas card list.
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  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^The 'city of jerks' response came from those that thought certain posters were not mourning or showing respect the way they wanted people to. If we didn't mourn or show respect the same way they did our opinions did not count. Lawd forbid you cross the line and question the way things are done. It's the same as your neighbor, if the ultimate sign of respect and mourning was a 2 inch blue ribbon for her then let her own it, but she has no right telling other people what to do. I should imagine you are now off her Xmas card list.
    As you can surely imagine I was never on it.

    jk aside people deal with grief in so many ways. including what things they choose to grieve over and even regarding things that have absolutely nothing to do with them. Its as if theres a want to grieve something in this society. Reminds me of that movie where the people just went to funerals to feel included in something...forget the name.

    just my take, and no biggy, but something seems wrong with all this. Almost sad that people need to experience these moments as if its something intimately involved to them.

    Its like the whole world has become a soap story water cooler office keeping excel lists on who wears poppys, yellow ribbons, blue ribbons, or are half mast at the appropriate times..

    My own take is its that kind of keeping tabs on anything that prevent people from getting along. Again as thread demonstrates.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-06-2015 at 10:09 PM.
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  38. #138

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    Well, the wheels fell off on this thread when someone asked why some people get a big send off and others don't. Perfectly good question, food for thought. Others thought it was not the time to be asking on such a solemn day. The thread is about an officer getting shot. These same people have probably deviated themselves from threads but today they were having none of it. The Thought Police were on patrol, don't ask, don't tell. Do we have to start making appointments to make comments on threads?. Would July 23rd. at 3:20 p.m. be O.K. to ask that question?. Is that sufficient enough time for them to give approval or turn it down. I don't mind spirited debates but I don't like being told how I should grieve and I imagine neither does anyone else.
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  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Well, the wheels fell off on this thread when someone asked why some people get a big send off and others don't. Perfectly good question, food for thought. Others thought it was not the time to be asking on such a solemn day. The thread is about an officer getting shot. These same people have probably deviated themselves from threads but today they were having none of it. The Thought Police were on patrol, don't ask, don't tell. Do we have to start making appointments to make comments on threads?. Would July 23rd. at 3:20 p.m. be O.K. to ask that question?. Is that sufficient enough time for them to give approval or turn it down. I don't mind spirited debates but I don't like being told how I should grieve and I imagine neither does anyone else.
    Similarly, following mass murders we've had our MPs suggest that then wasn't the time to discuss gun control. Because of the passions and emotions involved and the lack of objectivity. (Personally, I think it's a delay tactic that likely reflects a double standard.) So here too, I guess is not the time to discuss hate or hate crimes or anything else as we are unlikely to be cold and calculating and totally objective.

    The thing is, it's those passions and emotions that make people human and bring about changes and are often only those that get worked up over issues drive change.

    The fact that this man was a local though means that family and friends may read these discussions and it may hurt them in some way and absolutely no one wants that. When it's something happening in a distant city, its much less likely that our forum discussions would be taken to heart. So some circumspection is naturally required.

  40. #140

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    We are posters on a forum. No one has said they knew Const. Goodall personally so we can safely say we can speak about this with some clarity. We are not personally involved in spite of the media hype with their talk of love and flowery phrases.
    Unfortunately (or fortunately) the internet is like time, it waits for no man. Opinions, good or bad, are going to be posted. Nobody is spewing hate, just opinions. Nobody wants to see anyone get killed on the job. If there is going to be a discussion, why put off until tomorrow what can be done today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^^Amazingly, though, when the data was actually compiled and analyzed, researchers discovered that the opposite is true. Police officers actually have a divorce rate that is lower than the national average and, in fact, are closer to the bottom of the list when it comes to the correlation between occupations and divorce.
    http://criminologycareers.about.com/...To-Divorce.htm

    Again we are getting statements by posters written with no facts to back them. What this does is just spread the same miss information and myths about the true statistics. Please, if you are hell bent on not proving yourself wrong supply the data to back up your rhetoric.
    i deleted the reference in my original post - you are correct in stating current studies do not demonstrate what has been off repeated for a long time and i apologize for perpetuating it. i do however stand by the others.

    having said that, the above are almost side issues to my real concerns with much of this thread. one i have specifically commented on already - i don't believe there can be too much respect in this world. and while I acknowledge there may well not be enough in too many circumstances, the answer to that is increase the respect given where it is insufficient, not to decrease it.

    the other is the fragmentation that this thread seems to identified and in some respects i was responding viscerally to that. this was not a police event only for police any more than a royal wedding is only for the monarchy or a state funeral is only for politicians or remembrance day only for veterans or labour day only for union members. there may be better examples so please don't jump in these per se but what i'm getting at is we are all in this - and everything else - together.

    at the risk of sounding preachy, it's not "us versus them" whether them is the police or politicians or professionals or union members or aboriginals or immigrants or jews or muslims or lbgt or [insert whatever you want]... we need to stop feeling threatened by those we don't understand and respect them and their choices - as long as they don't infringe on ours - equally.
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  42. #142

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    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    Last edited by Gemini; 21-06-2015 at 11:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    i think there is a place for grand gestures and i'm not sure we don't need more of them, not less. not more of the same but more...

    we need grand gestures for missing aboriginal women as we used to have them for segregation and the vietnam war and votes for women.

    we need to stop turning grand gestures like labour day and remembrance day and canada day into long weekends at the lake or trips to the mall.

    we need to stop treating grand gestures as if they are not of and for us all as a society. thinking they are for a narrow segment of society to which only a few belong or benefit or even for a single individual - even if that individual is a real and deserving touchstone - misses the point of grand gestures. grand gestures are both from and to all of us.
    Last edited by kcantor; 22-06-2015 at 08:32 AM. Reason: typo and clarification of last paragraph.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ...
    Probably the same reason you can't see that policing is incredibly safer than a significant number of other occupations. Police aren't sacrificing anything. The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    no murder no harm?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...tack-1.3122432

    such an incredibly safe profession...
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  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    i think there is a place for grand gestures and i'm not sure we don't need more of them, not less. not more of the same but more...

    we need grand gestures for missing aboriginal women as we used to have them for segregation and the vietnam war and votes for women.

    we need to stop turning grand gestures like labour day and remembrance day and canada day into long weekends at the lake or trips to the mall.

    we need to stop treating grand gestures as if they are not of and for us all as a society. thinking they are for a narrow segment of society to which only a few belong or benefit or even for a single individual - even if that individual is a real and deserving touchstone - misses the point of grand gestures. grand gestures are both from and to all of us.
    Depends what your definition of a grand gesture is. For me it could be an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a Remembrance Day poppy or the sullen teenager buying flowers for an old lady. For some I guess grand gestures have to be bigger and better than that. When does a grand gesture go to far as to become overworked, overdone, over thought over spent. Is a head bowed in respect any less than thousands of people on parade. Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    i think there is a place for grand gestures and i'm not sure we don't need more of them, not less. not more of the same but more...

    we need grand gestures for missing aboriginal women as we used to have them for segregation and the vietnam war and votes for women.

    we need to stop turning grand gestures like labour day and remembrance day and canada day into long weekends at the lake or trips to the mall.

    we need to stop treating grand gestures as if they are not of and for us all as a society. thinking they are for a narrow segment of society to which only a few belong or benefit or even for a single individual - even if that individual is a real and deserving touchstone - misses the point of grand gestures. grand gestures are both from and to all of us.
    Depends what your definition of a grand gesture is. For me it could be an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a Remembrance Day poppy or the sullen teenager buying flowers for an old lady. For some I guess grand gestures have to be bigger and better than that. When does a grand gesture go to far as to become overworked, overdone, over thought over spent. Is a head bowed in respect any less than thousands of people on parade. Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    i'm not sure we are as far apart as you represent - or as we both represent i suppose.

    yes, an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a remembrance day poppy might be a grand gesture under the circumstances.

    but when he's eighteen, he may well prefer to attend a ceremony in the butterdome or at the edmonton cenotaph.

    and when he's twenty-eight he may want to attend a ceremony in our nation's capital.

    and when he's thirty-eight, he may want to attend a ceremony at the groesbeek canadian war memorial or holocaust memorials in amsterdam.

    when does it become overworked or overdone? maybe when there is a family wish for a private funeral. or maybe when that eight year old used his allowance to buy a poppy because his parents insisted on it, not because he wanted to? but if it is the family's wish and the child's wish, than the definitions of what is grand will differ although the emotion is the same. and neither should preclude the other - both should embrace the other.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    This is brilliantly put. Thank you.

  48. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    One of the odd things in this whole episode is the degree of angry investment and fervor in all of this.

    Actually had a neighbor ask me why I didn't have a blue ribbon on my front lawn. Surreal moment.

    Being that its a neighbor that is always in other peoples business I stated flatly, well, possibly because I don't have a light standard or traffic signpost on my front lawn then walked away. Reality is I wouldn't have one anyway and thought it a silly and unnecessary gesture. Kind of like with a your with us or against us narrative. Next thing I know people will want me to be a star bellied sneetch...(some older people might get that)

    But that people would actually ask a question like 'why don't you have the blue ribbon" suggests some people taking this stuff way more seriously than maybe they should. An EPS constable gets shot here every 25yrs. Not like its something neighbors need to be drawing lines on.

    Theres a certain self righteousness about this whole saga, and as exhibited even in this thread that has been an off the hook angry kind of response.

    Time to settle it down.
    Last week those ribbons were a sign of solemn respect. This week they're garbage stuck in trees. Not surprised that the same effort to put them up was not put into taking them down and recycling them appropriately.

    We used recyclable ribbons for this endeavor, right?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  49. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    i think there is a place for grand gestures and i'm not sure we don't need more of them, not less. not more of the same but more...

    we need grand gestures for missing aboriginal women as we used to have them for segregation and the vietnam war and votes for women.

    we need to stop turning grand gestures like labour day and remembrance day and canada day into long weekends at the lake or trips to the mall.

    we need to stop treating grand gestures as if they are not of and for us all as a society. thinking they are for a narrow segment of society to which only a few belong or benefit or even for a single individual - even if that individual is a real and deserving touchstone - misses the point of grand gestures. grand gestures are both from and to all of us.
    Depends what your definition of a grand gesture is. For me it could be an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a Remembrance Day poppy or the sullen teenager buying flowers for an old lady. For some I guess grand gestures have to be bigger and better than that. When does a grand gesture go to far as to become overworked, overdone, over thought over spent. Is a head bowed in respect any less than thousands of people on parade. Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    i'm not sure we are as far apart as you represent - or as we both represent i suppose.

    yes, an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a remembrance day poppy might be a grand gesture under the circumstances.

    but when he's eighteen, he may well prefer to attend a ceremony in the butterdome or at the edmonton cenotaph.

    and when he's twenty-eight he may want to attend a ceremony in our nation's capital.

    and when he's thirty-eight, he may want to attend a ceremony at the groesbeek canadian war memorial or holocaust memorials in amsterdam.

    when does it become overworked or overdone? maybe when there is a family wish for a private funeral. or maybe when that eight year old used his allowance to buy a poppy because his parents insisted on it, not because he wanted to? but if it is the family's wish and the child's wish, than the definitions of what is grand will differ although the emotion is the same. and neither should preclude the other - both should embrace the other.
    Not sure we are singing from the same hymn book on this particular thread topic. Even if we are your a bit off key. Or maybe you're a bag pipe player, sucking and blowing at the same time.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    This is brilliantly put. Thank you.
    Well it sure gets tiring when certain organizations and customs are questioned we have to listen to the howling some people raise. Just because one aspect of an organization is questioned does not mean your pulling the whole organization down.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    There can never be too much respect in this world,that's true, but any one person cannot say how that respect should be or is given. And, if you remember, respect has to be earned.
    Telling people they did not respect Const. Woodall because they were asking questions about his funeral is like saying you did not like the meal because you were asking about the steak. Asking questions is not a sign of disrespect. We all knew it was not just a police event, you just had to read the newspapers and turn on the T.V. to see the public was behind this. A person would have to be made of stone to not feel for his wife, his kids, his parents and the rest of his family. Those feelings don't take away the fact that these funerals are grand gestures and could maybe be scaled back. Instead of officers coming from all over why not set aside a time on the day of the funeral and ask all officers to take a break and stop what they are doing and bow their heads. If the hearst drives along Jasper the public can stand for it's passing. It's not the a grand regimental funeral but it's still showing respect.
    i think there is a place for grand gestures and i'm not sure we don't need more of them, not less. not more of the same but more...

    we need grand gestures for missing aboriginal women as we used to have them for segregation and the vietnam war and votes for women.

    we need to stop turning grand gestures like labour day and remembrance day and canada day into long weekends at the lake or trips to the mall.

    we need to stop treating grand gestures as if they are not of and for us all as a society. thinking they are for a narrow segment of society to which only a few belong or benefit or even for a single individual - even if that individual is a real and deserving touchstone - misses the point of grand gestures. grand gestures are both from and to all of us.
    Depends what your definition of a grand gesture is. For me it could be an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a Remembrance Day poppy or the sullen teenager buying flowers for an old lady. For some I guess grand gestures have to be bigger and better than that. When does a grand gesture go to far as to become overworked, overdone, over thought over spent. Is a head bowed in respect any less than thousands of people on parade. Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    i'm not sure we are as far apart as you represent - or as we both represent i suppose.

    yes, an eight year old kid spending all of his weekly allowance on a remembrance day poppy might be a grand gesture under the circumstances.

    but when he's eighteen, he may well prefer to attend a ceremony in the butterdome or at the edmonton cenotaph.

    and when he's twenty-eight he may want to attend a ceremony in our nation's capital.

    and when he's thirty-eight, he may want to attend a ceremony at the groesbeek canadian war memorial or holocaust memorials in amsterdam.

    when does it become overworked or overdone? maybe when there is a family wish for a private funeral. or maybe when that eight year old used his allowance to buy a poppy because his parents insisted on it, not because he wanted to? but if it is the family's wish and the child's wish, than the definitions of what is grand will differ although the emotion is the same. and neither should preclude the other - both should embrace the other.
    Not sure we are singing from the same hymn book on this particular thread topic. Even if we are your a bit off key. Or maybe you're a bag pipe player, sucking and blowing at the same time.
    ???

    i've tried to respect your opinion on what may be appropriate for you, corrected an assumption i passed on that you noted was in error and even acknowledged that some of the examples you provided may be grand gestures in their own right. but that doesn't mean i agree that your underlying assumption that your opinions on what is or isn't appropriate should dictate or preclude the gestures of others simply because you perceive them to be overworked or overdone. sorry that you think that is sucking and blowing at the same time.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    This is brilliantly put. Thank you.
    Well it sure gets tiring when certain organizations and customs are questioned we have to listen to the howling some people raise. Just because one aspect of an organization is questioned does not mean your pulling the whole organization down.
    by the same token, just because others do not agree with your particular criticism of certain organizations and customs, it does not mean that those others are not also capable of criticizing those same organizations and other customs and activities they carry out or don't carry out. disagreeing with your choice of what - and how or where - you choose to criticize is not howling.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  53. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ...
    Probably the same reason you can't see that policing is incredibly safer than a significant number of other occupations. Police aren't sacrificing anything. The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    no murder no harm?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...tack-1.3122432

    such an incredibly safe profession...
    Not to minimize the sacrifice of our police, fire fighters, military, etc. but as far as danger goes, they're not even in the top 10,

    And the top 10 most dangerous jobs are Ö

    1. Loggers: falling trees, cutting equipment.

    2. Fisheries workers: drowning, heavy equipment.

    3. Pilots and flight engineers: air disturbances, high altitudes, takeoffs and landings.

    4. Roofers: falling from heights, heat stroke in summer.

    5. Structural iron and steel workers: falling from heights, heavy materials, welding.

    6. Garbage and recyclables collectors: hazardous materials, heavy equipment, road accidents.

    7. Electrical power line installers and repairers: electricity, falling from heights.

    8. Truck drivers and mobile sales workers: road accidents, exhaustion.

    9. Farmers, ranchers, agricultural managers: heavy equipment, large animals.

    10. Construction workers: dangerous equipment and large animals.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle16352517/
    The deliberateness of this attack certain;y puts a different feel on it as opposed to an accident, however, as far as safety goes, it's relatively safe.

    You may asks "where would we be without the police: but you could ask the same of everyone on the above list and more. I'm surprised that cab driver isn't on it, for example. And bringing up assault, being spat on and the rest of the abuse people face, what about the medical profession, particularly in the emergency wards?

  54. #154

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    ^ Most lists do have cab driving as one of the most dangerous occupations.

    They're up there. Whenever a cab driver is killed here, and it happens 10 times more than EPS police getting killed you barely hear anything about it.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-1...ca-2010-3?op=1

    Yet on this board whenever Cab drivers complain about their occupation or try to support their occupational safety they're considered lazy, useless, not doing their job, etc. With the comments about cab drivers on this board routinely offensive.

    Yet all these drivers have been killed in the line of duty. Nothing gets said, nothing gets done, no support is received.

    http://www.taxi-library.org/canada/cant1b1.htm

    All they get for this is spit on, sworn at, physically abused, stiffed, etc. not to mention the countless instances on this board where cab drivers are referred to as "human scum".

    Holy double standards batman.

    Yeah, lets have some of that respectful society..
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-06-2015 at 10:39 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Respect does not come in degrees either. You either respect a person or you don't. You could disrespect a lawyer, a doctor, a police officer but still respect their profession. One person in any one profession does not define the whole profession.
    If a family of an officer killed in the line of duty wanted a private family funeral would we respect and mourn that officer any less?. I would like to think not. And that should go for anyone killed on the job.
    This is brilliantly put. Thank you.
    Well it sure gets tiring when certain organizations and customs are questioned we have to listen to the howling some people raise. Just because one aspect of an organization is questioned does not mean your pulling the whole organization down.
    by the same token, just because others do not agree with your particular criticism of certain organizations and customs, it does not mean that those others are not also capable of criticizing those same organizations and other customs and activities they carry out or don't carry out. disagreeing with your choice of what - and how or where - you choose to criticize is not howling.
    I wasn't criticizing, I was questioning. Big difference. And by the same token, not all criticism is negative but that seems to escape some people.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  56. #156
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    10. Construction workers: dangerous equipment and large animals.



    Classic.

    That would be all the dumb slobs walking around in white hats not doing anything.

  57. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by bpeters; 23-06-2015 at 03:45 PM.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    Not that you meant to, but you do raise an interesting point. By again pointing out how relatively safe a job in the police service is, and highlighting the significance (to some) of the parade in galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain institutions and professions.

    It could be argued that if city centres were routinely closed down and the streets lined with crowds every time someone was killed at work, we as a society may be inclined towards higher standards of safety and regulation across all professions. Whether it highlighted the inherent danger of some jobs over others or just pi$$ed people off due to the constant gridlock that would close down main street on a regular basis, it would eventually lead to the raising of safety standards across the board.

    Let the parades begin!
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  59. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    This is the type of knee jerk reaction that gets spewed when any one questions or comments on authority. You hate cops, you should do the job yourself, you should yadda yadda yadda. Comments are not always criticism and criticism is not always negative. If someone comments on an officers conduct they are usually aware that one officer does not represent the whole service. Every time there is a police tragedy (either an officer killed or a civilian killed by an officer) I'm sure the 'debate' after such incidents has yielded changes for better outcomes.
    Nobody denied Const. Woodall a respectable funeral. The service inside the Shaw was a fine tribute by his closest friends, the flag being passed to his wife along with his cap and belt was a touching gesture.
    One could say a construction hat and a hammer could be passed for construction worker. What some people are commenting on is the parade before the service. I know his fellow officers have to mourn and reflect on his death, but what happens when an immediate relative of an officer dies. They have to mourn them without the 5,000 strong parade.
    Your rant for someone to call their 'oilfield buddies' is a rather a childish defence. Does an officer call a plumber when he needs his hair cut.
    By the way, it was me who pointed out that 2 EPS officers had been killed in the last 25 years and four in 97 years. That's o k, I realize your probably wild eyed and swinging your machete around at the moment. Take a pill or cold shower, have a beer. Come back and talk it over rationally.
    Last edited by Gemini; 23-06-2015 at 03:47 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  60. #160

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    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  61. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    This is the type of knee jerk reaction that gets spewed when any one questions or comments on authority. You hate cops, you should do the job yourself, you should yadda yadda yadda. Comments are not always criticism and criticism is not always negative. Every time there is a police tragedy (either an officer killed or a civilian killed by an officer) I'm sure the 'debate' after such incidents has yielded changes for better outcomes.
    Your rant for someone to call their 'oilfield buddies' is a rather a childish defence. Does an officer call a plumber when he needs his hair cut.
    By the way, it was me who pointed out that 2 officers had been killed in the last 25 years and four since 97 years. That's o k I realize your probably wild eyed and swinging your machete around at the moment. Take a pill or cold shower, have a beer. Come back and talk it over rationally.
    Yep, that's me, all wild eyed and swinging.
    A pill? a cold shower? How about both. I'm not the one going off as it relates to a funeral procession. I'm going off on the callous comments that are attempting to divert the aspect of a certain profession's way of honoring their 'family' as some vain attempt at garnering sympathy. Do you cut off a hearse in traffic?
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  62. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Every time there is a police tragedy (either an officer killed or a civilian killed by an officer) I'm sure the 'debate' after such incidents has yielded changes for better outcomes.
    On this we agree, but the 'change' being sought in this thread and the aggression seems to be no more police funeral processions because they're just people.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  63. #163

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    A pill, cold shower. Yeah, do both if you want.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  64. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Every time there is a police tragedy (either an officer killed or a civilian killed by an officer) I'm sure the 'debate' after such incidents has yielded changes for better outcomes.
    On this we agree, but the 'change' being sought in this thread and the aggression seems to be no more police funeral processions because they're just people.
    Well, they are 'just people' they would be the first to admit that. There's nothing mystical about them. They work for a living, they eat, they sleep, they have emotions, they have kids, bills, hopes, dreams, big cars, small cars, put their trousers on one leg at a time. When out in public wearing civilian clothes I would venture a guess they blend in perfectly.
    What's your point with this comment?.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  65. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    This is the type of knee jerk reaction that gets spewed when any one questions or comments on authority. You hate cops, you should do the job yourself, you should yadda yadda yadda. Comments are not always criticism and criticism is not always negative. Every time there is a police tragedy (either an officer killed or a civilian killed by an officer) I'm sure the 'debate' after such incidents has yielded changes for better outcomes.
    Your rant for someone to call their 'oilfield buddies' is a rather a childish defence. Does an officer call a plumber when he needs his hair cut.
    By the way, it was me who pointed out that 2 officers had been killed in the last 25 years and four since 97 years. That's o k I realize your probably wild eyed and swinging your machete around at the moment. Take a pill or cold shower, have a beer. Come back and talk it over rationally.
    Yep, that's me, all wild eyed and swinging.
    A pill? a cold shower? How about both. I'm not the one going off as it relates to a funeral procession. I'm going off on the callous comments that are attempting to divert the aspect of a certain profession's way of honoring their 'family' as some vain attempt at garnering sympathy. Do you cut off a hearse in traffic?
    Police officers killed in the line of duty have taxpayer paid funerals. For the amount of money this has cost each Edmontonian I have absolutely no objection whatsoever of this happening. Have a service in as big a venue as possible, invite the public. What some are saying is 'why the parade' when other civil servants killed while working don't get one.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  66. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  67. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Police officers killed in the line of duty have taxpayer paid funerals. For the amount of money this has cost each Edmontonian...
    Again, 2 in 25 years. I'm good with it. You're not. That's ok.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  68. #168

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    ^No, I'm not 'good with it'. It's two police deaths too many.
    And again, if you are going to quote someone use the whole quote or at least the rest of the sentence of the part you are quoting. If you had of read the rest of the quote and not cherry picked it I also said I had absolutely no problem with the paying of the service. Same as your post before, attributing posts to people who did not even say such things.
    Last edited by Gemini; 23-06-2015 at 04:54 PM.
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  69. #169
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    If this gigantic funeral causes as much of a stir in the general public as it does in this forum perhaps it is time to tone down some. Something a bit more modest wouldn't hurt.

  70. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    What some are saying is 'why the parade' when other civil servants killed while working don't get one.
    But its not a parade, its a procession, a funeral procession. Big difference. And its not semantics. Firefighters receive similar ritual I believe. I don't know why the tax assessor doesn't. Take up that torch if its about equality for the civil servants killed on the job. But railing against a time honored tradition that is universally accepted by most people as an act of recognition (not so much as support and sympathy) seems a bit flamboyant.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  71. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    That was in response to expat (post #88 ) and I did not use the quote feature. In the time it took to write my post your response popped up. Oops.
    Last edited by bpeters; 23-06-2015 at 05:03 PM.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  72. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The expectation of harm is basically zero based on facts and proof.
    Please call your oilfield buddies should you have a B&E or traffic accident or a theft of household items or a family member is suspected of gone missing. Please.

    Rant on: Chilmz, you come off as an effin' cop hating baby in this thread. As you do in the other threads that relate to EPS on this forum. What's the matter? You applied and got rejected? By your own calculation, there have been four police deaths in 97 years, 2 in recent memory. Do TWO funeral processions bother you that much? TWO? Does this 'fallen officer' procession act disturb you and your pathetic principles and ideals that much? But hey as its been pointed out, its a forum and 'debate is good', 'checks and balances' BS. Take it to your councillor, your MLA, your MP if you feel so strong about it. Rally your pitchfork and torch toting supporters and have your own protest parade. Do it. You coward. Rant off.
    Have a nice day.
    Deal.

    Go dig up your own oil and process it before you put it into your hand-made car made with steel you mined and smelted yourself. How many oilfield and mining deaths were there so you could have your car? Well, lots here in Canada, and untold worldwide.

    Go make your own t-shirt in a Bangladesh sweatshop. Hey look, over 1000 people died in a single collapse so you can have cheap socks.

    The electronics you're using to rant? Yup. You guessed it. Built by impoverished Chinese working in such horrid conditions they're driven to suicide.

    By contrast, police here have it cushy bud. I WILL call them when I need their services, just like you drive your car, wear that t-shirt, and use that smartphone. It's a job, that they choose to do, and the risks they face are no different than any of the ones above. Anyone that gets injured at their job so others can have what they have, whether that's a shiny new widget or someone who shows up when you've been in a fender bender, should be treated equally.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 23-06-2015 at 05:10 PM.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  73. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Deal.

    Go dig up your own oil and process it before you put it into your hand-made car made with steel you mined and smelted yourself. How many oilfield and mining deaths were there so you could have your car? Well, lots here in Canada, and untold worldwide.

    Go make your own t-shirt in a Bangladesh sweatshop. Hey look, over 1000 people died in a single collapse so you can have cheap socks.

    The electronics you're using to rant? Yup. You guessed it. Built by impoverished Chinese working in such horrid conditions they're driven to suicide.

    By contrast, police here have it cushy bud. I WILL call them when I need their services, just like you drive your car, wear that t-shirt, and use that smartphone. It's a job, that they choose to do, and the risks they face are no different than any of the ones above. Anyone that gets injured at their job so others can have what they have, whether that's a shiny new widget or someone who shows up when you've been in a fender bender, should be treated equally.
    So go take up the cause with the GOC. Go visit Xi Jinping. That's what this is all about to you? You want to be the poster child of human equality? Give me a break. Instead of typing about all these atrocities, go do something about them.
    You nay-sayers as it relates to the police funeral procession can't even agree what the hell it is you don't like about it. Don't attend it. Don't support it. Don't donate to the family fund. But don't spin this that its about equality.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  74. #174
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    Ve vill do az ve vant, und u vill like it !!

  75. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Deal.

    Go dig up your own oil and process it before you put it into your hand-made car made with steel you mined and smelted yourself. How many oilfield and mining deaths were there so you could have your car? Well, lots here in Canada, and untold worldwide.

    Go make your own t-shirt in a Bangladesh sweatshop. Hey look, over 1000 people died in a single collapse so you can have cheap socks.

    The electronics you're using to rant? Yup. You guessed it. Built by impoverished Chinese working in such horrid conditions they're driven to suicide.

    By contrast, police here have it cushy bud. I WILL call them when I need their services, just like you drive your car, wear that t-shirt, and use that smartphone. It's a job, that they choose to do, and the risks they face are no different than any of the ones above. Anyone that gets injured at their job so others can have what they have, whether that's a shiny new widget or someone who shows up when you've been in a fender bender, should be treated equally.
    So go take up the cause with the GOC. Go visit Xi Jinping. That's what this is all about to you? You want to be the poster child of human equality? Give me a break. Instead of typing about all these atrocities, go do something about them.
    You nay-sayers as it relates to the police funeral procession can't even agree what the hell it is you don't like about it. Don't attend it. Don't support it. Don't donate to the family fund. But don't spin this that its about equality.
    Tell you what. Why don't you take up the cause with him. I'm sure you are all for fair treatment for all human kind. Or, why don't we all take it up.
    If you have not come to the conclusion as why some don't like the procession you have not read the whole thread or your having a hard time comprehending things. I figured that when you misquote or only attribute half of what people say in your quotes to make it look like some of us are ogres.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  76. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    What some are saying is 'why the parade' when other civil servants killed while working don't get one.
    But its not a parade, its a procession, a funeral procession. Big difference. And its not semantics. Firefighters receive similar ritual I believe. I don't know why the tax assessor doesn't. Take up that torch if its about equality for the civil servants killed on the job. But railing against a time honored tradition that is universally accepted by most people as an act of recognition (not so much as support and sympathy) seems a bit flamboyant.
    Sure, slavery used to be universally accepted at one time until some people railed against it. A taxpayers funded funeral prossession for a tax assessor. I think even a tax assessor will say it's a wee bit too much.
    Last edited by Gemini; 23-06-2015 at 06:17 PM.
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  77. #177
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    Okay come on, slavery vs funeral processions for police officers!?

  78. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    That was in response to expat (post #88 ) and I did not use the quote feature. In the time it took to write my post your response popped up. Oops.
    Even expat did not say 'why did this senseless murder happen' in post #88.
    Cripes sake, if your going to quote someone do it right. It's as bad as people repeating so called facts and not supply the source.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    That was in response to expat (post #88 ) and I did not use the quote feature. In the time it took to write my post your response popped up. Oops.
    Even expat did not say 'why did this senseless murder happen' in post #88.
    Cripes sake, if your going to quote someone do it right. It's as bad as people repeating so called facts and not supply the source.
    Unfortunately dear old bpeters is indulging in a spot of confirmation bias, he's fixating on certain words and phrases and adapting them to suit his already fixed world view... These sort of emotive subjects do tend to bring that out in people.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  80. #180

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    Yeah, I had to go and check on your #88 post as 'why did this senseless murder happen' did not seem like a phrase you would use. Sounds like something from a Harlequin Romance book or a bad crime novel.
    Seems like bp bolted after I asked him to join chmilz and maybe the rest of us to make a better world. I guess it's a bridge to far for him.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  81. #181
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    I can't understand why all this angst over a public display of grief and respect for this fallen officer who literally laid down his life in the fight against hate. Are others just as deserving, no doubt, and as the parade passed next to Grierson Centre there was a big blue bow attached to the tree planted several years ago in commemoration of Louise Pargeter who was a parole officer killed in the line of duty in Yellowknife, I was remembering her as were a number of others.

  82. #182

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    Well, the angst comes when people ask that very same question. 'Are others just as deserving......'.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Well, the angst comes when people ask that very same question. 'Are others just as deserving......'.
    Well if your hypothesis is that "life is not fair" you certainly won't get an argument from me. Its just that I choose to celebrate the times that recognition is duly applied, rather than dwell on the times that recognition is wrongly applied or not applied when it should be. Dwelling on the latter, from my own personal experience, leads only to bitterness and resentment. In saying that, however, I don't want to diminish the importance of speaking up for those whose efforts do go unrecognized, that is something that we should do even if we may not often see the tangible results of that in this life.

  84. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    [ I'm going off on the callous comments that are attempting to divert the aspect of a certain profession's way of honoring their 'family' as some vain attempt at garnering sympathy. Do you cut off a hearse in traffic?
    You inadvertently touched on something here so I'll go with it.

    How many funeral processions involve hundreds of vehicles and cut off traffic for miles? How many observances result in a parade of thousands in what is a semi militaristic display on mainstreet deigned as much to offer support or offer a narrative about all these fallen brothers (except that they're aren't many) Yeah, if theres 300 vehicles lined up in a funeral procession I'll cut in. They don't own the road. Its indeed the sheer numbers, thousands of constables participating in this that have caused people to ponder some of the grandiose display here. Indeed the word I've seen expressed a lot in regards to the display was that it was ostentatious.

    Interestingly enough one of the things that used to be common in Biker Gangs would be a show of visiting force each time a member was killed in action. The idea being that a display of a thousand biker badges parading on Harleys down main street would show anybody, anytown, who is boss and not to mess with any brothers. Ironically enough such habits by biker gangs were responded to by mortal recoil by municipalities, states, calling in the Police, Army, National Guard, RCMP to deal with such gatherings. To outlaw them. To force such assemblage out of town. Out of state.


    Now I'm not equating these events but I do find it interesting that the behavior is the same. A brother has fallen in Missouri, in Delaware, London, in Manchester, in Paris, In Quebec, in Alberta etc. lets go show our stripes internationally and march/ride our hogs down main street in support of fallen brothers or comrades. Again theres that word comrade. Brothers in arms. Like it or not one doesn't have to dwell too deep on that to see the somewhat unsettling imagery and militaristic zeal.

    No other profession gathers nationally, or internationally, in numbers in show of force in this way. If a Union did this the billy clubs, tazers , rubber bullets, tear gas would come out. if students gather like this with any militancy we have a good idea of what happens. If cab drivers gathered this way and had huge numbers and a parade there would be an equal line of people complaining about them, calling them scum (like so often gets stated on this board) spitting at them, and telling them to go get a real job because everybody would prefer uber anyway..

    The ultimate irony being is that if any other profession had international legions visiting in shows of force and activity around town shutting down roads, streets, the first people dealing with them and telling them not to, and that they can't would be police forces...Including first and foremost police/RCMP interventions shutting down peaceful protests involving first nations peoples who granted us this land in the first place..Perhaps the greatest irony of all.


    Yeah theres double standards at work here. You just have to dig a little.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-06-2015 at 10:55 PM.
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  85. #185

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    I'm only a little shamed to admit that last year I turned north onto 97 St from Yellowhead and gunned it to make to the far left lane... right in front of a procession, only to sit on the green at 127 Ave while waiting to make a left turn. Held them up for a good minute or so. See, I turn left at 127 Ave to get home, and had I waited for them to pass, I would have waited for a good 10 minutes, and since they were in the left lane I would have held them up wherever it was I tried to overtake them. I had crap to do and they weren't in a rush so I made the call. I expect the same when I'm in a procession. It's not my place to inconvenience strangers so I can tailgate my way to a known destination. They'll start when we're all there.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  86. #186

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    Now some people aren't going to like this, and it won't be a popular take and several people will shreik OT, not in this thread but I'll put this in this thread because nobody would have much discourse about it in another thread.

    We're talking about the lead up to to the police officer "Hate crimes"unit officer being shot by Raddatz.

    Now Raddatz had exhibited some symptoms of mental illness, depression, and a confused thought process.
    Raddatz had previously had 8 bylaw infractions and for such things as innocuous as parking his RV outside.

    One of Raddatz's thoughts at the time being;

    “Edmonton bylaw is an extortion racket paid for by our tax dollars to go about robbing us of more dollars,” Raddatz added.
    hmmm, so he didn't pay, didn't believe he needed to, and didn't subscribe to thinking that bylaw had such valid authority.

    Bylaws continue to escalate. Mixed in with this is Raddatz being accused of online hate crime.

    Now this gets interesting. A sad man who reportedly rarely left his house, was rarely seen by neighbors, and rarely talked in person to anybody, and who from description was even exhibiting onset of agoraphobia or social fears has 8 police officers showing up at his door armed and with a battering ram and with intent to arrest him.

    "Last year, Raddatz allegedly mounted an online campaign of extreme bullying against another Edmonton man.
    The harassment was specifically anti-Semitic, according to police, and the target and his family became so concerned for their safety they filed a complaint a few months ago.
    On Monday evening, police went to Raddatz’s home to serve him with documents ordering him to appear in court on a charge of criminal harassment. They also had an arrest warrant stemming from a bylaw offence.
    When Raddatz wouldn’t come out, police left to get a Feeney warrant. When they returned they brought a battering ram to break in. That’s when bullets started flying through the front door."

    http://globalnews.ca/news/2048798/so...-of-authority/

    Now a couple of observations here. The genesis of the "Feeney Warrant' is to deal with people that are clearly a danger and menace to the public and who are holed up inside. The Feeney Warrant overrides precedents where there have been difficulties in arresting a person at home who is refusing to come out of their home, which can be considered private sanctuary. I may not have this perfect but its the just of it from what I can gather.

    Now we have here a sick individual, probably in need of help, who is holed up, increasingly paranoid, and thinking bylaws and police are out to get him. Not a completely deluded thought considering the 8 prior bylaw infractions and 8 police showing up at this door to arrest him for an "outstanding bylaw offense" Repeat after me, an arrest warrant, including Feeney warrant, and full battering ram, for a bylaw offense. Pause a little bit and consider that. I negate the other reason they were there because lacking other substantiation I'm similarly troubled about how quickly the determination of Raddatz being a hate crime risk to others escalated. Again this is somebody who reportedly engaged in some hate crime targeting towards a family ONLINE. there is no mention, none, of any other involvement with the family, any other targeting, and Raddatz had no criminal priors. None. But a man predisposed to not even leaving home was depicted as a grave danger requiring forcible arrest through Feeney warrant and battering ram due to the complainants concern that "the target and his family became so concerned for their safety they filed a complaint a few months ago." Now safety is specifically mentioned here. I emphasize this. How did Raddatz in fact jeopardize their safety. I suspect we'll never know.

    But pay attention to the narrative again "Last year, Raddatz allegedly mounted an online campaign of extreme bullying against another Edmonton man."
    Now it strikes me that classifying something online as extreme bullying that involves adult targeting (typically less vulnerable, more resilent population to bullying) that can simply choose not to go online or evade the online bullying which was not by reports occurring in person, or by any other means.


    Just strikes me that there was a lot of escalation here in this instance and that didn't help the situation either. Also that 8 bylaw infractions within a year also start to resemble a harassment campaign of its own for a person that's already lost his home (bank forclosed, lost his job, marriage, and was quite likely in need of mental health intervention. This is somebody who's world was crumbling in and was likely suicidal. But did this degree of intervention make the situation worse?

    Instead a person not able to cope anymore that would probably benefit from a mobile mental health team or cart team (at least earlier on as an intervention) got 8 armed constables at the doorstep with a feeney warrant and battering ram. For to purpose of "Breaking in"

    That's some kind of escalation considering the known statement of facts, priors, and risks leading up to this.

    Strikes me as well that the presence of a specific "hate crimes unit" probably did lead to some targeting of Raddatz that we're unlikely to hear about.

    Now let the accusation begin.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-06-2015 at 12:34 AM.
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  87. #187
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    Interesting Replacement, Top_Dawg was wondering if anybody was going to bring up the Feeney Warrant, something the media has not questioned.

    Executing a Feeney Warrant is among the most dangerous things police do.

    Although an officer has the discretion to act upon the warrant himself, Feeney Warrants are routinely executed by specialized units who possess the required equipment to minimize injury.

    Which is what should have happened in this case ( given the individual ) for all the reasons Replacement mentions above.

    So one of either two things happened.

    A ranking supervisor told these hate crime officers to execute the Feeney Warrant.

    Or, they themselves, emboldened by their numbers, and hopped up on bravado and adrenalin, decided to play SWAT team.

    With tragic results.

    In short, just the fact that a Feeney Warrant was necessary inherently indicates that there was no crime in progress, nor that there was any imminent peril or threat of danger to anybody.

    Had some sober thought went into arresting this perpetrator then the absolute worst thing that could have happened was the death of the perpetrator himself.

    The murder of Constable Woodall was entirely preventable.

  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Interesting Replacement, Top_Dawg was wondering if anybody was going to bring up the Feeney Warrant, something the media has not questioned.

    Executing a Feeney Warrant is among the most dangerous things police do.

    Although an officer has the discretion to act upon the warrant himself, Feeney Warrants are routinely executed by specialized units who possess the required equipment to minimize injury.

    Which is what should have happened in this case ( given the individual ) for all the reasons Replacement mentions above.

    So one of either two things happened.

    A ranking supervisor told these hate crime officers to execute the Feeney Warrant.

    Or, they themselves, emboldened by their numbers, and hopped up on bravado and adrenalin, decided to play SWAT team.

    With tragic results.

    In short, just the fact that a Feeney Warrant was necessary inherently indicates that there was no crime in progress, nor that there was any imminent peril or threat of danger to anybody.

    Had some sober thought went into arresting this perpetrator then the absolute worst thing that could have happened was the death of the perpetrator himself.

    The murder of Constable Woodall was entirely preventable.
    with the benefit of hindsight, ALL murders are entirely preventable.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  89. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Interesting Replacement, Top_Dawg was wondering if anybody was going to bring up the Feeney Warrant, something the media has not questioned.

    Executing a Feeney Warrant is among the most dangerous things police do.

    Although an officer has the discretion to act upon the warrant himself, Feeney Warrants are routinely executed by specialized units who possess the required equipment to minimize injury.

    Which is what should have happened in this case ( given the individual ) for all the reasons Replacement mentions above.

    So one of either two things happened.

    A ranking supervisor told these hate crime officers to execute the Feeney Warrant.

    Or, they themselves, emboldened by their numbers, and hopped up on bravado and adrenalin, decided to play SWAT team.

    With tragic results.

    In short, just the fact that a Feeney Warrant was necessary inherently indicates that there was no crime in progress, nor that there was any imminent peril or threat of danger to anybody.

    Had some sober thought went into arresting this perpetrator then the absolute worst thing that could have happened was the death of the perpetrator himself.

    The murder of Constable Woodall was entirely preventable.
    I'm of course guilty of speculation but we all have different reactions to these things. Mine is similar to yours in thinking how things could've been dealt with differently and analyzing the details as presented.

    Some things struck me as odd. 8police officers, bullet proof vests, Feeney warrant. We also have reports that Const Woodall had been asking neighbors whether Raddatz was a hunter and whether he would be considered armed and dangerous.. That blew my mind. What kind of intel is that? If you have enough concern to be asking those questions than by all means do put in a swat team.
    Clearly the Police were worried enough to have 8 constables involved. (albeit this also limits chances the suspect evades arrest.) but again was this escalation, and this means completely necessary. Was there a better way to approach this situation? Would a more proactive remedy when this had started to escalate and calling in mobile mental health for assistance have been a different and better option? This is not just backseat hindsight either. I'm a first crisis responder too. I deal with individuals like this. I've worked with individuals in probably worse states of mental health. But I don't come to the door armed and in masse which for many individuals with paranoid thought process escalates them to siege level mentality and resistance. That key concept is not being well understood in this discussion but its well understood as eliciting/triggering action in the literature.

    The dynamic occurred here occurs time and time across jurisdictions. Force a desperate man to the cliff edge and actions become much more unpredictable. But the actioned response, i.e. the escalation, plays a part of it and this is well known in policing. Bringing 8 guys and a battering ram, telling him they are breaking in and then doing so is very escalated. Note that the shots started firing at the 3rd assault on door with the battering ram. This was likely to elicit foremost siege mentality in such a holed up individual. Understand as well that Feeney warrants are used in the case of individuals that are known to be holed up and evading and refusing to leave residence. But how dangerous, really, is an individual that is refusing to leave his residence?


    But I agree. Don't play around with it. Either give the guy some space, proper resources that may actually help him, or bring in the appropriate team to deal with it if the situation is inferred to be grave enough to require 8 constables, body armor, and intel with neighbors.

    Police jurisdictions have been up in arms about the Feeney Warrant since it was legislated. Complaining about it vociferously. Except that the spirit of it is meant to protect both individuals, police, and liberty from spurious forcible entry executed without proper reason. But theres some thoughts now that the courts are pressured to rubber stamp more Feeney warrants. Again we'll never know many of the background factors here.

    But what we do know is that a battering ram, breaking in, a Feeney Warrant was authorized in this. We do know that he was being arrested for warrant pertaining to prior bylaw offense(s) (as stated from several sources) which makes no sense to me.

    My argument is not just in relation to this case. I find it scary, and quite unsettling that a forcible entry "break in" can be executed and authorized for such things as bylaw offense warrants. I find the warrants executed in this bylaw sense troubling in themselves. Excessive? I worry about where we are headed.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-06-2015 at 11:10 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post


    Some things struck me as odd. 8police officers, bullet proof vests, Feeney warrant. We also have reports that Const Woodall had been asking neighbors whether Raddatz was a hunter and whether he would be considered armed and dangerous.. That blew my mind. What kind of intel is that?
    That, as the Mayor intimated at just after the killings, is the kind of "intel" you have to resort to when there is no idea of who's hording an arsenal of "long guns" and amo.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    That was in response to expat (post #88 ) and I did not use the quote feature. In the time it took to write my post your response popped up. Oops.
    Even expat did not say 'why did this senseless murder happen' in post #88.
    Cripes sake, if your going to quote someone do it right. It's as bad as people repeating so called facts and not supply the source.
    if your refering to me, i thought i had done so at the same time i deleted the apocryphal reference to divorce...

    total police force members are here:

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...gal05a-eng.htm

    there was a further breakdown of force members by location that included a breakdown of this number that included reserve police that i did not include in the total in my post.

    alberta employment by industry is available here:

    http://albertacanada.com/business/ov...mployment.aspx

    if i have not provided source or links to anything else - assuming it was me you were referring to - let me know...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  92. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Seems like bp bolted after I asked him to join chmilz and maybe the rest of us to make a better world. I guess it's a bridge to far for him.

    Bridge to far? Not likely. You lost me and any credibility you thought you had when you implied (yes, implied) protesting and railing against a funeral procession of a police officer makes a better world. Keep your world. I'm good.

    For clarity not just any civil servant but the one's who put their lives at risk daily for the public; re: you, despite your facts and figures to try to say otherwise. Peace out.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  93. #193

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    ^Once again, I have to ask you, please find the post where I implied that protesting and railing against a funeral procession of a police officer makes a better world. Where did I ever mention on this thread that I thought it would be a good idea to protest a police funeral, or even imply it. I'm going to take it that you are posting in good faith so I look forward to any or all posts you find where this implication of me protesting has been made. If you cannot find it (you won't as it's not there) I'll just conclude you are again dreaming in techno-color.
    Last edited by Gemini; 24-06-2015 at 07:26 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  94. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    And shockingly the point you fail to grasp is that its TWO processions in recent memory. A total of 90 minutes down Jasper Ave. Oh the humanity. You must have had a complete meltdown at the images of Const. Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone's funeral procession from London England(you remember London don't you?) in 2012.
    And this BS of 'galvanizing public support and sympathy for certain professions'. Do you honestly believe the purpose of these processions (wherever they take place) are to draw attention to the police force? You think the police want your sympathy? Do you think they like coming to a funeral procession? Then you're just dense.
    Most, I think tend to look a little deeper than the so-called 'pomp and pageantry' you and others tend to focus on. You yourself questioned the 'why?'. Why did this senseless murder happen? Maybe get past the visual aspect of honoring a fallen comrade and find out what you can do to stop the Norman Raddatz's of the world from doing what they do because I'm pretty sure the police forces are trying to do just that.
    Highlighted by me.

    That 'why did this senseless murder happen?' remark. Does not sound like something I wrote, sounds like something a bible thumper might say.
    Please find the post where I said that. If you do, I'll apologize. If you don't please watch who you attribute quotes to.
    That was in response to expat (post #88 ) and I did not use the quote feature. In the time it took to write my post your response popped up. Oops.
    Even expat did not say 'why did this senseless murder happen' in post #88.
    Cripes sake, if your going to quote someone do it right. It's as bad as people repeating so called facts and not supply the source.
    if your refering to me, i thought i had done so at the same time i deleted the apocryphal reference to divorce...

    total police force members are here:

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...gal05a-eng.htm

    there was a further breakdown of force members by location that included a breakdown of this number that included reserve police that i did not include in the total in my post.

    alberta employment by industry is available here:

    http://albertacanada.com/business/ov...mployment.aspx

    if i have not provided source or links to anything else - assuming it was me you were referring to - let me know...
    No, I was not referring to you at this time. I know you withdrew/changed your post on the divorce statistics and offered an explanation. I'm fine with that.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    If this gigantic funeral causes as much of a stir in the general public as it does in this forum perhaps it is time to tone down some. Something a bit more modest wouldn't hurt.
    Judging by the outpouring, the many strangers that felt the need to show up. I would say there wasn't a stir like there is in here, in fact I haven't seen it on any other forums.

  96. #196
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    Posted without comment.
    Edmonton police to commemorate 25th anniversary of officer’s death

    EDMONTON - Members of Ezio Faraone’s family and the Edmonton Police Service will hold a remembrance on Thursday in the park named in his honour, near the High Level Bridge...

    The park gathering is intended to focus on memories of Faraone’s life, rather than the circumstances of his death. Mayor Don Iveson is scheduled to attend, but the event is meant for police officers and Faraone’s friends and family, and not the general public.
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...204/story.html
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  97. #197
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    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...398/story.html

    Parade and funeral at Shaw Conference TBA.


  98. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...398/story.html

    Parade and funeral at Shaw Conference TBA.

    can we presume you're organizing it?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  99. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...398/story.html

    Parade and funeral at Shaw Conference TBA.

    can we presume you're organizing it?
    The same publicly funded organization that organized the other one will suffice. They did an outstanding job.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  100. #200

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    Slain Edmonton police officer Daniel Woodall's family moving back to England.

    The widow of an Edmonton police officer killed on the job last year says she’s moving back to England with her children.
    Claire Woodall says it’s been hard raising her two young boys on her own and she wants to be closer to family.
    She says she’s received much love from people in Edmonton, but it’s time to return to Manchester.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crim...ack-to-england

    I can imagine after all the trauma of losing a husband and father you need family to help raise your children. Hope life is good for them back in Manchester.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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