Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 116

Thread: Farbrother let go as City Manager

  1. #1
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    31,300

    Default Farbrother let go as City Manager

    Simon Farbrother, Edmonton's city manager, has been let go.

    Mayor Don Iveson made the announcement on Thursday afternoon, calling it a "difficult decision."

    "A decision of this magnitude was not made without careful deliberation and discussion among council members but, in the end, we determined that change was necessary — and that it must happen now," said Iveson, adding the challenges the city faces demand a "fresh perspective."

    Iveson said the decision to terminate Farbrother's contract is not based on any specific project.
    more:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.3223482
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  2. #2

    Default

    Something had to give.
    www.decl.org

  3. #3

    Default

    I do not know the specifics but poor communication, accountability and resistance to fixing systemic problems all come to mind.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  4. #4

    Default

    I need to get one of these jobs one day, if I get fired I think I only get about 3 weeks for each year of employment:

    Farbrother will receive $800,000 in severance, an amount that's based on two years worth of salary plus benefits. Farbrother earned about $400,000 a year including benefits.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.3223482

    Where's the incentive not to screw up?

  5. #5
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    many wants him fired as I saw lots of comments about him in Edmonton journal facebook page in the last few weeks.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  6. #6
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,327

    Default

    THe city, province, etc should put a clause in contracts stating that if you're being let go because you failed to meet XYZ, then you don't get your severance, etc. it's not okay that he is walking away with nearly $1M when he outright failed on everything expected of someone in that level of position. Everything that separated Farbrother from those who worked under him was abandoned. The City Manager role should have been left empty altogether and the tasks completed by those working under the CM. the end results would have been identical.

  7. #7

    Default

    ^Agreed, I'd happily take responsiblity for the metro delays, and pretty anything else as well, if it bagged me 800k.

  8. #8
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,327

    Default

    ^no doubt. There is no incentive to do your job well, but nearly 1,000,000 reasons to not do it at all.

  9. #9
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    even he is terminated, he is entitled to severance pay due to contract he made with the city, so there is nothing that we can do about it. but if he doesn't get then he can sue the city very easily.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  10. #10

    Default

    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.

  11. #11
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,327

    Default

    Sorry, in this case, the guy was negligent, which is why he was let go. He wasn't let go for thing out of his control, he was let go because he didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions on the most obvious problems on the project. Had he lifted his finger to do even part of his job, we would have had more information to make decisions off of such as pressuring contractors, knowing who to ask questions and demand answers from 2 years ago instead of only beginning the process now. When negligent, certain thing should no longer apply.

    Yes, he gets it cause it was in his contract... But he outright didn't even attempt to do his job, in which case the contract should be void.
    Last edited by etownboarder; 10-09-2015 at 06:11 PM.

  12. #12

    Default

    ^

    No, he was not negligent. He was incompetent in the context of keeping his organization in check. It's completely different.

  13. #13
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^

    No, he was not negligent. He was incompetent in the context of keeping his organization in check. It's completely different.
    Are you sure? I would say negligent in that he didn't bother to pick up a phone, or when not provided with anything in writing, taking the word of someone who is clearly biased in the information provided. The project was 18 months late, and that didn't ring the obvious? I know nothing about being a city manager, but even I would have asked some of the questions that would have led to other questions etc. doesn't take a genius to get some answers. He didn't even try, just accepted the excuses and moved on to other business. I call that negligence, not incompetence.

  14. #14

    Default

    Peter Priciple
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^

    No, he was not negligent. He was incompetent in the context of keeping his organization in check. It's completely different.
    Are you sure? I would say negligent in that he didn't bother to pick up a phone, or when not provided with anything in writing, taking the word of someone who is clearly biased in the information provided. I know nothing about being a city manager, but even I would have asked some of the questions that would have led to other questions etc. doesn't take a genius to get some answers. He didn't even try, just accepted the excuses and moved on to other business. I call that negligence, not incompetence.
    Neither of us have any idea of the conversations that happened. I'm sure there were many. His failure was inability to deliver what was promised in a reasonable time frame, that is completely different from being negligent.

    Negligence is failing to do your homework because you decided to go golfing instead.
    Incompetence is failing to do your homework because you were in over your head and didn't now how to do it.

  16. #16
    Plug C2E into my veins!!!
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta, Westwood
    Posts
    16,327

    Default

    The way various council members talked about his performance, I get the impression it came down to outright failing to do the obvious. Did the city really hire someone that incompetent? Or did Farbrother pad his resume? I recall Farbrother being yet another "awesome" candidate and Edmonton was "lucky to have him" when first hired, being worth "every penny." That was certainly the case with the former Manager of Transportation Bob Boutillier from the TTC.
    Last edited by etownboarder; 10-09-2015 at 06:37 PM.

  17. #17
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Westmount
    Posts
    3,292

    Default

    Is Farbrother even back in town after his trip to NZ yet?
    The same day that city council learned about potential 16-minute traffic snarls due to its disastrous Metro LRT Line, city manager Simon Farbrother brought glad tidings from Auckland, New Zealand.

    Due to a financial fallout in the Caribbean, Edmonton could host the 2017 Commonwealth Youth Games. The festivities would cost less than $4 million and would be “an excellent opportunity to keep Edmonton at the forefront of the Commonwealth Games movement.”

    Perhaps. But the timing couldn’t have been worse. Edmontonians were still busy getting their heads around the Metro LRT, our slow train to perdition.
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/thurs...083/story.html

  18. #18
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Westmount
    Posts
    3,292

    Default

    How much of the City's recent high-profile failures were really on Farbrother, I can't say. But council had to act or potentially risk a populist revolt at the ballot box in 2017.

  19. #19
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    31,300

    Default

    Farbrother was the chief negotiator of the arena deal. Not to make excuses for him but I have to wonder how much of the arena deal occupied his time over the day-to-day management of the city.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  20. #20
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Westmount
    Posts
    3,292

    Default

    Council wants a micro-manager:

    Caterina said that council hired Farbrother in early 2010 when it was looking for someone to empower staff and change the culture in the corporation. The culture has improved, Caterina said, “but we need a balance. In other circumstances, the person in change needs to be the person in charge.”

    Coun. Bryan Anderson also identified Farbother’s “hands-off” leadership style as the issue. There have been problems with the Metro Line signalling contract and the Walterdale and 102nd Avenue bridge projects. Further back, there was the $47-million photo radar cost overrun when city staff took over the program, he said.

    “There’s a number of issues,” Anderson said. “Our population and city council believed hands-off wasn’t the way to go. He should have had his nose in their business earlier than he did.”
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...302/story.html

  21. #21

    Default

    I'll give Farbrother that he had a mixed record during the most dynamic civic period of my lifetime. He handled some files well, but I think he just gave Transportation too long a leash without ensuring they knew what to do with it.

    Not to say Transportation is the only department running rampant and unaccountable, but obviously the worst.

    Hope we can entice someone with a stronger resume to come here this time.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I'll give Farbrother that he had a mixed record during the most dynamic civic period of my lifetime. He handled some files well, but I think he just gave Transportation too long a leash without ensuring they knew what to do with it.

    Not to say Transportation is the only department running rampant and unaccountable, but obviously the worst.

    Hope we can entice someone with a stronger resume to come here this time.
    That's exactly it. He ought to have known that Transportation was the timebomb needing to be defused, and he blew it.

    There has to be city managers that have worked in bigger, better cities that are looking for a great canvas with which to work, and Edmonton is a prime canvas indeed. I imagine we're competing against rich middle eastern and Asian cities for for premium city manager/planner talent, however we surely have to be able to pique some interest.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  23. #23

    Default

    Rob Ford could be tweeking his resume as we speak
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Rob Ford could be tweeking his resume as we speak
    Good God no!
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  25. #25
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I need to get one of these jobs one day, if I get fired I think I only get about 3 weeks for each year of employment:

    Farbrother will receive $800,000 in severance, an amount that's based on two years worth of salary plus benefits. Farbrother earned about $400,000 a year including benefits.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.3223482

    Where's the incentive not to screw up?
    Alberta Employment Standards don't really apply to executives/management. It's mostly based on previous court precedents, and of course whatever contract he had with the city. However, it would seem that often different government departments and agencies simply hand over the maximum expected severance, instead of attempting to negotiate. A private company would likely not do so in this situation, where there has been an absolutely atrocious level of performance for a sustained period. But how much they could actually prove is difficult to say, and once something like that makes it's way to the courts, the costs can quickly pile up.

    It definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth that he's walking away with 800k minus taxes in his jeans after running the city in to the ground in his tenure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes
    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.
    Give me a break. He's got two years to find a job, given his severance. And should he have any difficulty in doing so, it's because of his absolutely atrocious performance in the job. That should be on him, not the taxpayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes
    Negligence is failing to do your homework because you decided to go golfing instead.
    Incompetence is failing to do your homework because you were in over your head and didn't now how to do it.
    Where I come from, if you're incompetent, you get fired and you don't get two years severance. You get walked out the door with a box of your personal effects and not much else. Why should the taxpayers of Edmonton be footing the bill for his incompetence? He's walking away from his job with somewhere around 3-4 million dollars in salary over the course of his employment, and apparently all he managed to do was run the city in to the ground for it. And we're supposed to feel bad for him?

  26. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why should the taxpayers of Edmonton be footing the bill for his incompetence? He's walking away from his job with somewhere around 3-4 million dollars in salary over the course of his employment, and apparently all he managed to do was run the city in to the ground for it. And we're supposed to feel bad for him?
    I never said feel bad for him, I certainly don't. I think it's reasonable that in a high risk management position, you get a severance when you're fired. Two years may seem a little rich, but how long was his contract?


    Where I come from, if you're incompetent, you get fired and you don't get two years severance. You get walked out the door with a box of your personal effects and not much else
    Is that really true? It's certainly not true if you're not management. For example, they would need to document they gave you chances to improve.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 10-09-2015 at 10:33 PM.

  27. #27
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,927

    Default

    I wonder how the city administration respected Farbrother.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  28. #28
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Where ever the pilot takes me
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Council wants a micro-manager:
    Pendulum, a good manager empowers his people but demands accountability and is willing to ask the hard questions, demand answers when appropriate and step in when necessary as a last resort.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  29. #29
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Westmount
    Posts
    3,292

    Default

    “For us, we were walking into these meetings and being totally surprised by some significant issues,” Coun. Michael Oshry said.

    “There were lots of these things that were not going well, and we were not getting straight answers from the administration on some of them, or we were getting answers kind of late, or when I think administration had no other choice but to finally spill the beans, and that’s not the best way to run a business, and it’s not the best way to run a non-profit, and it’s not the best way to run the city.”
    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...576/story.html

  30. #30

    Default

    Wonder if he get's to keep his 'Store It Don't Pour It' can lids.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  31. #31

    Default

    Reached Thursday night, Farbrother said he respects the council decision. “That’s their prerogative.”


    “I really enjoyed my time at the city,” he said, declining to comment on remarks about his leadership style.

    He said he’s proud of the accomplishments he had at the city, including securing the downtown arena deal, the Blatchford redevelopment that’s moving ahead on the former City Centre Airport lands, improving organizational performance and saving taxpayers millions through the budgeting process.


    According to his biography on the city website, Farbrother has served in municipalities for 20 years, including as city manager for Spruce Grove and Waterloo, Ont. He recently completed a three-year term as international vice-president of the International City/County Managers Association.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...302/story.html
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  32. #32
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    390

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^

    No, he was not negligent. He was incompetent in the context of keeping his organization in check. It's completely different.
    Oh yeah....completely different!
    Yup...its the same thingy

  33. #33

    Default

    I was a little surprised that they went with a manager of considerably smaller cities, especially when Edmonton was going through such a growth phrase. As others have stated there has to be some candidates from larger cities who wanted to make their own imprint on a place. I guess it would be akin to a hockey team going through a significant rebuild, and hiring someone who's never coached above minor leagues in any capacity.

    As for why he was let go I think it's obvious someone had to go. The previous transportation head has since retired. Farbrother and others in city admin were far too occupied with the arena deal and perhaps blatchford to keep an eye on the lrt. It's a mistake made by many in various capacities and jobs, just in this case it cost hundreds of millions of dollars, 1.5 year delay, and *gasp* has put the mayor and councils political re-electability in question.

    I also know farbrother didn't endear himself to the city managers organization CEMA when it came to wage increase bargaining. Right or not, you're going to run out of friends real quick, which isn't a good thing when you need someone take a few bullets for you.

    My experience with Simon was constantly (and I mean constantly) seeing updates of him touring faculties, watching what people did, and then getting his picture taken with said people. You never heard from him unless it was to show him in the monthly newsletter with a hard hat and vest watching other people do stuff. Literally every other page or so was this.

    Every month. For years. "Hands off" indeed.

  34. #34
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    His hands off approach as a city manager is what cause him to be terminated by the city. If he doesn't do that, I'm sure he will be very fantastic city manger in a long time.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  35. #35
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,393

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Rob Ford could be tweeking his resume as we speak
    Rob Ford has a job though, he is now a Toronto city councilor and will be until 2018.

    I just hope the house cleaning will extend into the top 2 levels of the Transportation Department.

  36. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.
    Boo hoo. Half Million buck salary, works out to at least 2.5M pay he's *earned* thus far. Gets 800K severance and a 250K pension.

    Who would care aftar all that getting fired? The guy is made.

    Give me 3.3M in 5 years employment and a pension and I don't need to find another job. Ever.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  37. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Why should the taxpayers of Edmonton be footing the bill for his incompetence? He's walking away from his job with somewhere around 3-4 million dollars in salary over the course of his employment, and apparently all he managed to do was run the city in to the ground for it. And we're supposed to feel bad for him?
    I never said feel bad for him, I certainly don't. I think it's reasonable that in a high risk management position, you get a severance when you're fired. Two years may seem a little rich, but how long was his contract?


    Where I come from, if you're incompetent, you get fired and you don't get two years severance. You get walked out the door with a box of your personal effects and not much else
    Is that really true? It's certainly not true if you're not management. For example, they would need to document they gave you chances to improve.
    The city has I would think demonstrable just cause in the firing of the Senior manager who watched over multiple files that have screwed up majorly during his tenure. In most employment not fulfilling your contract adequately can result in termination of the contract and dismissal of the employee.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  38. #38
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton (Norwood)
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.
    Boo hoo. Half Million buck salary, works out to at least 2.5M pay he's *earned* thus far. Gets 800K severance and a 250K pension.

    Who would care aftar all that getting fired? The guy is made.

    Give me 3.3M in 5 years employment and a pension and I don't need to find another job. Ever.
    No kidding. This guy made a lot more money than his bosses on council do.

  39. #39
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,393

    Default

    I thought the purpose of paying a lot of money is so that you get competent, world class people for the job... I guess we were lied to yet again.

  40. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.
    Boo hoo. Half Million buck salary, works out to at least 2.5M pay he's *earned* thus far. Gets 800K severance and a 250K pension.

    Who would care aftar all that getting fired? The guy is made.

    Give me 3.3M in 5 years employment and a pension and I don't need to find another job. Ever.
    No kidding. This guy made a lot more money than his bosses on council do.
    guy also has a lot more responsibilities than those on council. In short, it's not a job that you can just walk in off the street and do.

  41. #41

    Default

    Wait until he resrufcaes in the Katz empire!

  42. #42
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    4,043

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Sorry, in this case, the guy was negligent, which is why he was let go. He wasn't let go for thing out of his control, he was let go because he didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions on the most obvious problems on the project. Had he lifted his finger to do even part of his job, we would have had more information to make decisions off of such as pressuring contractors, knowing who to ask questions and demand answers from 2 years ago instead of only beginning the process now.
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Are you sure? I would say negligent in that he didn't bother to pick up a phone, or when not provided with anything in writing, taking the word of someone who is clearly biased in the information provided. The project was 18 months late, and that didn't ring the obvious? I know nothing about being a city manager, but even I would have asked some of the questions that would have led to other questions etc. doesn't take a genius to get some answers. He didn't even try, just accepted the excuses and moved on to other business. I call that negligence, not incompetence.
    Top_Dawg does not disagree with what you say etown.

    However what Top_Dawg finds hilarious is that the city has a Transportation Committee.

    Made up of councilors.

    Presumably to stay abreast of transportation projects in this city.

    Did they not also fail to ask even the most basic questions ?

    And two of the abortionists that sit on this committee are quoted making disparaging comments about Farbrother in newspaper articles linked to in this thread.



    Top_Dawg loves the hypocricy.
    Last edited by Top_Dawg; 11-09-2015 at 12:34 PM.

  43. #43
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,927

    Default

    I hope we don't go back to the regressive planning approaches the city used to embrace.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  44. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Sorry, in this case, the guy was negligent, which is why he was let go. He wasn't let go for thing out of his control, he was let go because he didn't even bother to ask the simplest of questions on the most obvious problems on the project. Had he lifted his finger to do even part of his job, we would have had more information to make decisions off of such as pressuring contractors, knowing who to ask questions and demand answers from 2 years ago instead of only beginning the process now.
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Are you sure? I would say negligent in that he didn't bother to pick up a phone, or when not provided with anything in writing, taking the word of someone who is clearly biased in the information provided. The project was 18 months late, and that didn't ring the obvious? I know nothing about being a city manager, but even I would have asked some of the questions that would have led to other questions etc. doesn't take a genius to get some answers. He didn't even try, just accepted the excuses and moved on to other business. I call that negligence, not incompetence.
    Top_Dawg does not disagree with what you say etown.

    However what Top_Dawg finds hilarious is that the city has a Transportation Committee.

    Made up of councilors.

    Presumably to stay abreast of transportation projects in this city.

    Did they not also fail to ask even the most basic questions ?

    And two of the abortionists that sit on this committee are quoted making disparaging comments about Farbrother in newspaper articles linked to in this thread.



    Top_Dawg loves the hypocricy.
    Are you suggesting that he was a fallbrother? Sorry, fallguy.

  45. #45
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    4,043

    Default

    Top_Dawg figgers that to a great extent, yeah he was.

    Despite all the bull$hit about ' moving to the next step '.... ' wanting a new direction '....' fresh perspective '....' challenges that lie ahead '....' doing what's right for Edmonton '.... the real motivating fear is

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    How much of the City's recent high-profile failures were really on Farbrother, I can't say. But council had to act or potentially risk a populist revolt at the ballot box in 2017.

  46. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    You guys have no idea of the pressures of a senior manager. The reason they get a large severance is precisely because they can be fired on the drop of a hat for things not always under their control, and it's a long hard process for them to find another position of equal responsibility and severance.
    If he is that good that he is able to get the salary he got, why did he need severence at all? Wouldn't other cities and companies be lining up to hire him? I never understood why someone making a high salary, deserves more severance as a proportion of salary, than someone struggling to get buy on a lower income. Next time the City sends out its package to entice someone, how bout they "run like heck" if the guy/girl demands a big payout clause in case he/she is fired? Because someone with the talent to do the job well who has highly marketable skills, isn't going to be concerned about that outcome.

  47. #47

    Default

    I do think it's fair to frame the discussion as 'free-agent overpay', and again underlines that we need to focus on the City's livability and attractiveness.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  48. #48

    Default

    $800,000? Please hire me as a replacement!

    I promise to screw things up for only $100,000.

  49. #49
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    46,996

    Default

    So who is going to take over?

    Rosen?
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  50. #50
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,713

    Default

    ^ I will do it for half..





    But seriously hopefully someone with experience from a city bigger than Leduc...
    be offended! figure out why later...

  51. #51

    Default

    How far do you think the C of E will cast the net for a new city manager?. Local, provincial, national, inter-national?.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  52. #52
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    31,300

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    So who is going to take over?

    Rosen?
    Rosen is now with the province.
    They should just hire a manager from Vancouver or Toronto or even Calgary.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  53. #53
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Westmount
    Posts
    3,292

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Top_Dawg figgers that to a great extent, yeah he was.

    Despite all the bull$hit about ' moving to the next step '.... ' wanting a new direction '....' fresh perspective '....' challenges that lie ahead '....' doing what's right for Edmonton '.... the real motivating fear is

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    How much of the City's recent high-profile failures were really on Farbrother, I can't say. But council had to act or potentially risk a populist revolt at the ballot box in 2017.
    Iveson was probably alarmed by Mike Nickel's grandstanding and wanted to head him off at the pass before the issue snowballed.

  54. #54
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    I never understood why someone making a high salary, deserves more severance as a proportion of salary, than someone struggling to get buy on a lower income.
    Because those people generally can afford to hire a lawyer, and will if the offer isn't sweet enough.

  55. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Because those people generally can afford to hire a lawyer, and will if the offer isn't sweet enough.
    WTF, you are saying, the COE is "obligated by lawyers" to offer massive severance in contracts for senior people? Its very rare for the courts to enforce more than about 3 weeks per year worked, not two years. If someone, or their lawyer, is so pathetic regarding their expectation of success to demand that in their contract, IMO they aren't worthy of the job. Smarten up city, offer contracts that reward success not failure, and maybe that's what the result will be?
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-09-2015 at 02:56 PM.

  56. #56
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Ozerna, North Edmonton
    Posts
    8,962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    So who is going to take over?

    Rosen?
    From my years on C2E, the City would be crazy not to hire Edmonton PRT as he clearly knows everything

  57. #57
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    4,043

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Because those people generally can afford to hire a lawyer, and will if the offer isn't sweet enough.
    WTF, you are saying, the COE is "obligated by lawyers" to offer massive severance in contracts for senior people? Its very rare for the courts to enforce more than about 3 weeks per year worked, not two years. If someone, or their lawyer, is so pathetic regarding their expectation of success to demand that in their contract, IMO they aren't worthy of the job. Smarten up city, offer contracts that reward success not failure, and maybe that's what the result will be?
    Can't look at it in the same frame as joey butt *** jabroni.

    Senior executive positions are high profile and very public.

    And senior executive careers can be very short.

    Often for political reasons beyond that person's control.

    By virtue of the fact that the positions are very public, when a senior executive gets his azz canned, it inherently is in a very public way.

    This can unduly impact that person's ability to get another senior executive position.

    For that reason they negotiate a generous severance - which really is a transitional allowance - because in the event of their dismissal they may be unemployed for a long period of time.

    Possibly forever.

    So it's not like when Top_Dawg gets his sorry azz turfed from one rock quarry and walks over to the next rock quarry with his trusty pick and shovel to get another job.

  58. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    This can unduly impact that person's ability to get another senior executive position.
    Poor babies, if they fail, they might have to do a regular job for a bit... I have no qualms the city paying for top talent, but I don't at all believe that necesitates golden parachute type contracts.

  59. #59
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Because those people generally can afford to hire a lawyer, and will if the offer isn't sweet enough.
    WTF, you are saying, the COE is "obligated by lawyers" to offer massive severance in contracts for senior people? Its very rare for the courts to enforce more than about 3 weeks per year worked, not two years. If someone, or their lawyer, is so pathetic regarding their expectation of success to demand that in their contract, IMO they aren't worthy of the job. Smarten up city, offer contracts that reward success not failure, and maybe that's what the result will be?
    As I said previously, Alberta Employment Standards don't really apply to senior executives and management, because of established court precedents from past litigation. I went through an ugly termination at my business several years ago and got to learn all about it. In our case we ended up negotiating the settlement and were advised on the strategy of doing so by our lawyer. In the end the terminated employee walked away with roughly a quarter of the term that Farbrother got, and this was a case of actual workplace harassment and near-violence. That's why it's so important to document everything, and to have clear terms in contracts.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 11-09-2015 at 03:25 PM.

  60. #60
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Downtown
    Posts
    4,043

    Default

    ^^
    Yes, maybe they can.

    Or maybe not.

    If they apply for a middle management job, they are often deemed to be overqualified.

    Also, if they have been a senior executive, and they are seeking a more junior position - how amenable do you think any potential new manager might be, knowing that should they hire this person they will always be looking over their shoulder ?

    So it's not really that easy.

  61. #61

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    $800,000? Please hire me as a replacement!

    I promise to screw things up for only $100,000.
    When I told a manager (higher up than me) that I was going to quit my job, he jokingly said I should just stop working so they'd fire me.

  62. #62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    As I said previously, Alberta Employment Standards don't really apply to senior executives and management, because of established court precedents from past litigation. I went through an ugly termination at my business several years ago and got to learn all about it. In our case we ended up negotiating the settlement and were advised on the strategy of doing so by our lawyer. In the end the terminated employee walked away with roughly a quarter of the term that Farbrother got, and this was a case of actual workplace harassment and near-violence. That's why it's so important to document everything, and to have clear terms in contracts.
    Fair enough, I guess we agree that the key is to document everything, and probably most importantly, think carefully about what is being offered at the outset.

  63. #63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    ^^
    Yes, maybe they can.

    Or maybe not.

    If they apply for a middle management job, they are often deemed to be overqualified.

    Also, if they have been a senior executive, and they are seeking a more junior position - how amenable do you think any potential new manager might be, knowing that should they hire this person they will always be looking over their shoulder ?

    So it's not really that easy.
    I really don't buy that Dawg, I don't like it when people think they are not "worthy" of certain jobs. If I was laid off tomorrow and was no longer eligible for my profession, I'd go work at McD's, or the Bay, or whatever. Maybe I wouldn't live the same lifestyle, but I could still live a decent one. All you need is cheap wine and a three day growth.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUGlWCCVA4M

    One of the lines in that could ring true here re a big severance: "I don't mind taking charity, from those that I despise".
    Last edited by moahunter; 11-09-2015 at 03:41 PM.

  64. #64
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    I prefer no contract because it would save city a lot of money once the city fired someone like farbrother.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  65. #65

    Default

    Hard to find suitable candidates when you don't have bait to hook them. Top level managers usually have lawyers and contracts. Anyone who does not is suspect.

    I don't like it but that is just the way it is.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  66. #66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Hard to find suitable candidates when you don't have bait to hook them. Top level managers usually have lawyers and contracts. Anyone who does not is suspect.

    I don't like it but that is just the way it is.
    Apparently it was hard to find a suitable candidate with bait to hook them. So why not take the same risk and same a fortune.

    Moreover, since this system feeds on itself via compensation committees, lawyers, etc, maybe it's time to implement some countervailing forces. i.e. It does appear to have been a very costly mistake on the part of those who did the deal.

  67. #67

    Default

    Depends how far the C of E wants to search for a candidate.
    It could get head hunters onto it. It's a big world out there. Could end up being someone from outside of Canada.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  68. #68
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    candidates is very smart because once a person hired for city manager, would want a contract with the city because in case if got fired, they can get nice fat severance pay with no worries if they don't find another new job in a few months.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  69. #69

    Default

    And you cannot offer lower salary since the managers below the GM also have large compensation packages.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  70. #70

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    candidates is very smart because once a person hired for city manager, would want a contract with the city because in case if got fired, they can get nice fat severance pay with no worries if they don't find another new job in a few months.
    Same in the corporate world. CEO'S used to build empires and strengthen the company for long term growth. Now they are more interested in padding their stock option portfolio. Slash costs, cut staff and focus on short term profits to appease shareholders who are also in it for a fast buck. When the company begins to falter, the CEO and the shareholders get out quick leaving a big mess for those remaining. In the public realm, one close example is the Klein revolution that failed in the long term.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  71. #71
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    City should offer packages to anyone who get the job as city manager but no contract period.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  72. #72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    And you cannot offer lower salary since the managers below the GM also have large compensation packages.
    Of course the salary and bonus have to be competitive. My point is, if I was offered two different packages, one with a higher bonus for performance, and the other with a lower bonus but a big severance, I'd take the former not the later. And I'm willing to bet the sort of motivated person the city needs would too. At the end of the day people look at total compensation, and talented people don't even contemplate failure. If the city needs to pay more, to enable it to have contracts with lower severance, fine, do that, because it incentivises performance.

  73. #73

    Default

    ^
    In a top executive position there is a very high risk you're going to be held accountable for things out of your control. For example, he was at least two levels of management removed from the metro LRT fiasco, so there was a long line of communication breakdown there.

    Show me an organization with the assets and revenue the size of CoE who has a CEO making less than 400K/yr and attractive severance package. It doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 12-09-2015 at 09:53 AM.

  74. #74

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    ^
    In a top executive position there is a very high risk you're going to be held accountable for things out of your control. For example, he was at least two levels of management removed from the metro LRT fiasco, so there was a long line of communication breakdown there.

    Show me an organization with the assets and revenue the size of CoE who has a CEO making less than 400K/yr and attractive severance package. It doesn't exist.
    huh?

    Farbrother was paid as well here as some top US city managers make.


    http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/a...ountry-7147137

    Note that's the "Highest paid City manager in the Country" at that time just over a year ago. Farbrother got his contract in 2010. Theres been inflation in pay since then. While you're looking at that article note the entirely vacant, I mean just clueless justification used for paying Gonzales so much. "We're paying for a NY Yankee" Oh my, that's about the depth of thought that goes into these overpaid contract awards.

    You keep talking about the accountability relating it to the stress and uncertainty incumbent in Farbrothers position. He's walking away with 2.5M salary, 800K severance (2yrs pay) and a pension. That not being a altogether difficult position to find oneself in.

    ps heres a citation that shows what pay was for City Managers doing exactly the same jobs as little as 10yrs ago.

    http://work.chron.com/average-salari...gers-1436.html

    The only thing that's changes is this King CEO notion the world has adopted since then that everybody has to have a Rockstar CEO and pay anything for it.


    In the end a City manager is a communicator. He's not a jack of all trades. He's there to defer, to gather information, to receive reports and make decisions. The trouble with overpaying somebody like this is its money just ****** away. Farbrother is not an expert on LRT singling and was likely in the dark as anybody about what the problems with this system were. He's just as likely to be confused by all this as somebody making half the money. All that we had with Farbrother is a guy who managed Spruce Grove, Waterloo Ontario, and was in over his head with the demands of this position, for which for some reason he was paid as I he was an elite star recruit.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-09-2015 at 10:11 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  75. #75

    Default

    Sorry, I was referring to the corporate world. I don't know the context of his salary compared to other city managers.

    He may also never work again, or have to leave the country to work.

  76. #76

    Default

    These salaries were always public knowledge, and since you are all the experts on what a public figure should earn, what do we need to pay?

    If we want top talent, what do city managers make in Vancouver and Toronto and how much extra would we have to pay to recruit them to Edmonton? Or are they just going to come here because they heard theres a nice river valley and a big mall with plenty of shopping and other amenities?

  77. #77

    Default

    Think of the arena deal alone. What is 400K in comparison to the half billion there. Clearly an experienced negotiator would make a very big difference.

  78. #78
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    his firings made public makes it harder to find other high paying jobs. that's the real reason he need contract , just in case whatever happen to him , he gets big severance pay which can last many months to spend on.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  79. #79

    Default

    Replacement, in one breath you say city managers are "just" communicators and decision makers, they don't deserve high salaries. The next you say he was only a city manager of smaller cities and was in over his head. Do you not see a contradiction there? You want big city manager material, you have to pay big city prices plus an Alberta premium.

  80. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Replacement, in one breath you say city managers are "just" communicators and decision makers, they don't deserve high salaries. The next you say he was only a city manager of smaller cities and was in over his head. Do you not see a contradiction there? You want big city manager material, you have to pay big city prices plus an Alberta premium.
    I could see it being taken as contradiction. Let me explain. Somebody overseeing countless projects in the capacity of a Civic manager should be possessed of good intelligence, have fluid minds that can understand concepts quickly at least at a working level where they can communicate effectively within the various projects that are in their purview.

    A large part of "communication" is discerning what is amiss, detecting, picking up on problems, helping to solve human problems, helping to get people on board or working together. Establsing productive work environments where open dialog occurs.

    Instead, and I've read indepth on the matter is with the LRT specifically any questioning, any concerns tended to be ignored. In short if one inspector found one problem in tests and another didn't Farbrother, and colleagues for some reason believed the successful test. (this actually occurred and was seen to systematic) That isn't open communication or understanding its believing and wanting only positive information to be forthcoming.
    Farbrother has even denoted some of his incompetence in stating that his approach works well when a project is being run well by subordinates. Well what if it isn't? That, I figure is where a high paid manager starts earning his pay. Farbrother didn't in that regard.

    Farbrothers biggest failure in communication is he failed to suffiently inform council, and or the mayor of significant issues that its publicly known he was aware of. That really is why he was fired, for that lack of communication. In Mike Nickels words "How many times are we as council going to be caught with our pants down due to this lack of being informed" (disclaimer not exact quote but from memory)
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-09-2015 at 01:03 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  81. #81

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Sorry, I was referring to the corporate world. I don't know the context of his salary compared to other city managers.

    He may also never work again, or have to leave the country to work.
    You were clearly wrong, and emphatically, stating such a thing doesn't exist. I showed you it does exist, linked direct comparable pay, and you say you're referring to the corporate world in the context of speaking specifically about Farbrother, a city manager.

    How about simply admitting you were completely wrong.

    in anycase most CEO's land somewhere. Even ones that have had portfolio disasters with companies end up landing somewhere. There is one thing that most CEO types communicate well. Using Hubris to stuff their own partridge, which sometimes ends up subsequently looking like a turkey. I don't think I'd be wrong in stating that traits like narcissism, grandiose self conceit, overstating ability are well represented in the CEO sphere. Some of these individuals are also good at suspending disbelief. Most of these individuals interview well. So did Farbrother. So did Dallas Eakins.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-09-2015 at 01:10 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  82. #82

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    I could see it being taken as contradiction. Let me explain. Somebody overseeing countless projects in the capacity of a Civic manager should be possessed of good intelligence, have fluid minds that can understand concepts quickly at least at a working level where they can communicate effectively within the various projects that are in their purview.

    A large part of "communication" is discerning what is amiss, detecting, picking up on problems, helping to solve human problems, helping to get people on board or working together. Establising productive work environments where open dialog occurs.
    I agree that on the surface, it appears his management style was not working, at least when it came to the transportation department, and city council was well within their rights to fire him and go in a different direction, and with the Metro LRT going off the rails, it was all but certain. He got paid the big bucks simply so we had the ability to fire him. I'm sure Dallas Eakins too either got paid out the remainder of his contract or received a nice severance.

    Maybe I'm overestimating the role of a city manager, but I think you are underestimating it. They oversee five departments, with I don't know how many staff, but presumably in the hundreds. They make key staffing decisions, play pivotal roles in negotiations with unions, contractors, and stakeholders that have implications that last for years, and oversee an operating budget of $2.3 billion dollars. 0.5% of that is 29 times their salary. I think it's very reasonable that the competency of a city manager could affect the operations by 0.5%.

    You were clearly wrong, and emphatically, stating such a thing doesn't exist. I showed you it does exist, linked direct comparable pay, and you say you're referring to the corporate world in the context of speaking specifically about Farbrother, a city manager.

    How about simply admitting you were completely wrong.
    Ok, I'll concede that I'm wrong, and that there are city managers that make less than 400K. You posted an American example, and I have no idea how comparable that is to Canadian examples. A quick search of Ottawa and Calgary's city managers show them making a comparable amount of money.

  83. #83
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    11,764

    Default

    the problem with much of this discussion is that everyone is underpaid when everything is going well and everyone is overpaid when they're not...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  84. #84

    Default

    I don't even understand why this is a salary discussion. We all want to get paid as much as possible, regardless of how good we are at what we do.

    Making this a discussion about salary is pointless. He didn't choose his pay. All that matter is performance. We could hire someone for a $1 and probably get a solid $1 worth of talent. That wouldn't be very smart though.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  85. #85

    Default

    ^agreed but it's not a very smartly designed contract that pays someone more for failure (severance) than success (salary - bonus). We shouldn't be surprised when such a contract results in failure.

  86. #86

    Default

    ^Yes, but even the bonus aspect can be abused. How many times did Alberta Health Services give bonuses for absolutely not changes in the status-quo of their operations Bonuses where someone screws up royally but it does not reach the press. The bonus is for containing the mess.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  87. #87

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Farbrothers biggest failure in communication is he failed to suffiently inform council, and or the mayor of significant issues that its publicly known he was aware of. That really is why he was fired, for that lack of communication. In Mike Nickels words "How many times are we as council going to be caught with our pants down due to this lack of being informed" (disclaimer not exact quote but from memory)
    Council had many issues with communications and trying to get straight answers from the administration. Often they were being "sold" on a project and we're only told about a portion of the costs. Once the project was started and past the point of no return, then the administration would come back to Council asking for more money to complete the project. This was happening continously and the spin doctoring and bait and switch tactics was a constant irritant. Council often knew they were being lied to but had little recourse to find the true facts. I had suggested that the role of the Office of the City Auditor needed to be expanded beyond investigating post mortem. They needed an investigative arm that could fact check and also look at alternatives beyond those presented by the administration.

    I still believe that a stronger Auditor would be a great benefit to Council.

    On another point. The internal politics often have vested interests and entrenched positions. No matter what the Council or the GM want to do,if for example; the huge transit union is against a project or policy change, they threaten to strike over the issue and paralyze Council from making changes.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  88. #88
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton area.
    Posts
    7,091

    Default

    Having to pay all that severance and pension money the city could only have wished he'd been run over by a truck.

  89. #89

    Default

    In the big picture, it is only costing each Edmontonian a dollar to get rid of him. Personally I would have paid $20 to get rid of him years ago...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  90. #90
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton (belevedre)
    Posts
    6,502

    Default

    why does City manager gets paid much more than Mayor ?? why does city manager need $ 400,000 a year ??
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  91. #91
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    As I said previously, Alberta Employment Standards don't really apply to senior executives and management, because of established court precedents from past litigation. I went through an ugly termination at my business several years ago and got to learn all about it. In our case we ended up negotiating the settlement and were advised on the strategy of doing so by our lawyer. In the end the terminated employee walked away with roughly a quarter of the term that Farbrother got, and this was a case of actual workplace harassment and near-violence. That's why it's so important to document everything, and to have clear terms in contracts.
    Fair enough, I guess we agree that the key is to document everything, and probably most importantly, think carefully about what is being offered at the outset.
    Bottom line is that Farbrother had an employment contract with City Council. We don't know the terms but it surely had termination clauses. Like it or not, Council is obligated to abide by them.

  92. #92

    Default

    ^i never said otherwise, I said be smarter with the termination clause in the next contract even if it means having to give more salary or bonus.

  93. #93
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    why does City manager gets paid much more than Mayor ?? why does city manager need $ 400,000 a year ??
    Any uneducated schmuck can get elected. Sr. Adminisrators are usually professionals with lots of years experience.

  94. #94
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by knowitall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    As I said previously, Alberta Employment Standards don't really apply to senior executives and management, because of established court precedents from past litigation. I went through an ugly termination at my business several years ago and got to learn all about it. In our case we ended up negotiating the settlement and were advised on the strategy of doing so by our lawyer. In the end the terminated employee walked away with roughly a quarter of the term that Farbrother got, and this was a case of actual workplace harassment and near-violence. That's why it's so important to document everything, and to have clear terms in contracts.
    Fair enough, I guess we agree that the key is to document everything, and probably most importantly, think carefully about what is being offered at the outset.
    Bottom line is that Farbrother had an employment contract with City Council. We don't know the terms but it surely had termination clauses. Like it or not, Council is obligated to abide by them.
    Contracts can be litigated and negotiated, even after they are signed. I'm not saying that would have been a good move in this case, that would be for a lawyer to advise. But it's never so simple as "well, that's what the contract says, let's just move along."

  95. #95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    why does City manager gets paid much more than Mayor ?? why does city manager need $ 400,000 a year ??
    The mayor is higher profile publicly, but the city manager is expected to bring a lot more technical and specific knowledge, experience, and stability to the organization.

    City council represents the interests of the stakeholders, which are municipal voters and tax payers. They set priorities and direct city admin to carry them out. However, it's left to the city to implement them. In short, city council can tell city admin what to do, but they won't tell them how to do it. For example, they will not just tell city admin to restore Mill Creek for $50 million. However they can ask city admin to do a feasibility study of what it would cost to restore Mill Creek, and then when city admin returns with that information, authorize or deny them, or ask for other options.
    Last edited by Snake Eyes; 13-09-2015 at 10:01 AM.

  96. #96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    why does City manager gets paid much more than Mayor ?? why does city manager need $ 400,000 a year ??
    The mayor is higher profile publicly, but the city manager is expected to bring a lot more technical and specific knowledge, experience, and stability to the organization.

    City council represents the interests of the stakeholders, which are municipal voters and tax payers. They set priorities and direct city admin to carry them out. However, it's left to the city to implement them. In short, city council can tell city admin what to do, but they won't tell them how to do it. For example, they will not just tell city admin to restore Mill Creek for $50 million. However they can ask city admin to do a feasibility study of what it would cost to restore Mill Creek, and then when city admin returns with that information, authorize or deny them, or ask for other options.
    Actually again this isn't necessarily the case. Farbrother does not have any extensive technical skills or background and was hired for his management style. It was felt after Maurer that the city needed somebody that would work nice with others, defer when possible and empower a different management style that was more cooperative. However its well noted that Farbrother incorporated a management style where quick verbal reports became more in vogue than written reports or summaries. Note that this would involve far less expectation of feedback of detailed and specific information.

    One wonders if this civic administration was far from becoming a verbal rubber stamp org under Farbrother and a see no evil one at that. I mentioned before that regarding the LRT what was happening was positive tests would be believed and tests revealing difficulties with the system tended to be ignored.
    I think one of the problems is Farbrother lacked the technical expertise, and access to independent consultant to comprehend some of the issues, specifically with the LRT, and that therefore led to so much deference and so little management of a project that was troubled. Farbrother seemingly lacked the expertise to comprehend at all where the problems might lie. I actually wonder if the Arena portfolio gave Farbrother an opportunity to pay less attention to an LRT portfolio that was likely challenging and headache inducing.
    Last edited by Replacement; 13-09-2015 at 10:29 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  97. #97

    Default

    I meant technical knowledge in that the city manager needs to know their industry, which is running a city, not that they know the ins and outs of details on every project and portfolio. Nobody knows everything, and putting the right people in the right jobs is critical for a managers success.

  98. #98

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Eyes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    why does City manager gets paid much more than Mayor ?? why does city manager need $ 400,000 a year ??
    The mayor is higher profile publicly, but the city manager is expected to bring a lot more technical and specific knowledge, experience, and stability to the organization.

    City council represents the interests of the stakeholders, which are municipal voters and tax payers. They set priorities and direct city admin to carry them out. However, it's left to the city to implement them. In short, city council can tell city admin what to do, but they won't tell them how to do it. For example, they will not just tell city admin to restore Mill Creek for $50 million. However they can ask city admin to do a feasibility study of what it would cost to restore Mill Creek, and then when city admin returns with that information, authorize or deny them, or ask for other options.
    Actually again this isn't necessarily the case. Farbrother does not have any extensive technical skills or background and was hired for his management style. It was felt after Maurer that the city needed somebody that would work nice with others, defer when possible and empower a different management style that was more cooperative. However its well noted that Farbrother incorporated a management style where quick verbal reports became more in vogue than written reports or summaries. Note that this would involve far less expectation of feedback of detailed and specific information.

    One wonders if this civic administration was far from becoming a verbal rubber stamp org under Farbrother and a see no evil one at that. I mentioned before that regarding the LRT what was happening was positive tests would be believed and tests revealing difficulties with the system tended to be ignored.
    I think one of the problems is Farbrother lacked the technical expertise, and access to independent consultant to comprehend some of the issues, specifically with the LRT, and that therefore led to so much deference and so little management of a project that was troubled. Farbrother seemingly lacked the expertise to comprehend at all where the problems might lie. I actually wonder if the Arena portfolio gave Farbrother an opportunity to pay less attention to an LRT portfolio that was likely challenging and headache inducing.
    We have to consider that the environment was one of a multitude of major projects that most city managers would never have had to face. Except those in much larger cities. Few have had to deal with both back logged project expenditures as well as growth related expenditures. Screwups should have been expected, and so, anticipated by City Council.

    If people recall, the late 70s and early 80s were full of boondoggles, massive cost overruns, unfinished and abandoned projects. (And back then, didn't we still have the City Commissoners?)
    Last edited by KC; 13-09-2015 at 10:55 AM.

  99. #99

    Default

    Who will temporarily become the C of E manager until they hire a new manager?.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  100. #100
    Addicted to C2E
    Mr. Reality Check

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    11,764

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Who will temporarily become the C of E manager until they hire a new manager?.
    linda cochrane, general manager of community services...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •