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Thread: The Future of Federal Conservative Party

  1. #1
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    Default The Future of Federal Conservative Party

    Time to talk about this too...

    I hope they go for someone like Raitt over someone like Kenney. Would actually be a credible party with wider appeal.

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    Ben Mulroney , lol

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    Harper has left them in a good state, after a long period in government.

    They still have a lot of ridings (not like the colapse Trudeau faced, when the Liberals dropped to third). They also control the senate - at least, until Trudeau's "advisors" recommend a lot of "neutral" (ahem, Liberal) senators, which we can expect ASAP.

    It will be interesting to see who the interim selection of leader is.

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    I hope a PC takes back the reins from the crazies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Harper has left them in a good state, after a long period in government.
    Has he? By all accounts, he's ruled the party with somewhat of an iron fist and thus there are few, if any, successors in the wings. Kenny is bilingual and spends a lot of time in front of the camera. Is that important? Raitt would pretty much be a no go for any union and has seemed to bumble many issues.

    There's really no one. Someone mentioned Jean Charest, which would definitely be on the Progressive side, probably way too much for the ex reformers, and probably on the same scale as the federal liberals.
    The worst thing the PCs ever did was when the PC's picked Campbell over Charest for their leader.

    Honestly, the best thing for the conservatives to do would be to get rid of the reformers and bring in someone like Danny Williams. He's extremely popular in the east, and an honest, say what you mean kind of guy that would be well respected in the west. Unfortunately, he's 66 now, which means he'd be pretty old when the next election came around.

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    ^ It's funny, Danny Williams is already 20 years older than Harper was when he first took PM office, and slightly more than 20 years older than Trudeau is now, so we (likely rightfully) dismiss his chances of becoming leader of a national party and heading into an election in 4 years.
    If we look south, however, Williams would be right at home at the age of 66 in the current presidential race. Among the front runners are Hilary Clinton (67), Bernie Sanders (74)(!), Joe Biden (72), Donald Trump (69) and Jeb Bush, who is a relative spring chicken at (62). More than likely the next President will be taking office for their first term in their late 60-s or 70's.
    Not totally relevant, but just interesting how different the age dynamic is between the two countries when it comes to party leaders and presidential/PM hopefuls.

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    ^ I think Williams would play the role of elder statesman quite well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    ^ I think Williams would play the role of elder statesman quite well.
    Then put him in the senate.

    With pum'kin head.


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    The party will need to make a decision on what direction they want to go. They could move back towards what the old PCs were or double down on the rightward swing of the last 20 years. They might want to keep in mind that the PCs in the 80s got large majorities and arguably it was the rise of the Reform Party that decimated their ability to win after that. While the CPC managed to hold government for a decade they did it with a bare minimum of popular support and with very clever parliamentary work. They never managed to grow their overall support into strong majority territory.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  10. #10

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    ^I think they will just build off what Harper did, populist centre right mainstream policies, i.e.:

    - tough on law and order
    - strong on defense (at least, stronger than liberals)
    - low taxes
    - no deficits in normal years (i.e. not global meltdown)
    - limited federal government
    - strong provincial independence (i.e. let them "choose" what to do with the money rather than negotiated national plans - e.g. health care)
    - social issues status quo (i.e. whereever Trudeau leaves these issues, will stay same, which is what Harper did).

    People will get tired of the "ottawa knows best" Trudeau tax and spend policies soon enough, we are going to see a ton of burecratic waste, so it won't take much of a swing back to win.
    Last edited by moahunter; 20-10-2015 at 10:51 AM.

  11. #11

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    The hardcore Conservative base would vote for Rob or Doug Ford in a heartbeat.

    Rob Ford says Doug Ford may run for Tory leadership if Stephen Harper steps down

    Doug Ford might be considering a run for the Tory leadership, according to his brother.

    "Doug said if it's a minority government, Harper's going to step down. He wants to run for leadership," Toronto Coun. Rob Ford told Bloomberg. "If it's one member, one vote, he said, you know, he's as popular as anyone else across Canada."

    Doug Ford was more reserved than his brother, reinforcing his continued support for Harper, but didn't dismiss the idea either.

    "I don't think I'll have to because hopefully he'll be prime minister for the next 20 years," he told Bloomberg. "I never say never in politics. But as of right now I am supporting the prime minister 100 per cent."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/doug...ster-1.3199767
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 20-10-2015 at 11:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I think they will just build off what Harper did, populist centre right mainstream policies, i.e.:

    - tough on law and order
    - strong on defense (at least, stronger than liberals)
    - low taxes
    - no deficits in normal years (i.e. not global meltdown)
    - limited federal government
    - strong provincial independence (i.e. let them "choose" what to do with the money rather than negotiated national plans - e.g. health care)
    - social issues status quo (i.e. whereever Trudeau leaves these issues, will stay same, which is what Harper did).

    People will get tired of the "ottawa knows best" Trudeau tax and spend policies soon enough, we are going to see a ton of burecratic waste, so it won't take much of a swing back to win.
    I think your interpretation of Harper's "populism" is vastly different than what the majority of Canadians see.

    - "Tough on law and order" = throw people in jail for victimless crimes, expand ineffective surveillance of everybody you can.

    - "Strong on defense" = spew a lot of pro-military rhetoric and send our soldiers to die everywhere the Americans glance, but massively cut spending to veterans and fail to properly equip our troops.

    - "Low taxes" = tax breaks for the people who need it least, but high burden for the poor, students, and young families trying to start their lives.

    - "No deficits in normal years" = No deficits when he had an inherited surplus, then a fake surplus made with voodoo finance.

    - "Limited federal government" = hugely expanded, big-government policies designed to slant the economy to specific industries/companies, and huge government intervention in the daily lives of Canadians in an attempt to dictate behaviour and cultural practice. This is the one I disagree with you most on, because harper was a massive in-your-face government type of guy.

    - "strong provincial independence" = download responsibilities onto provinces without any funding, and refuse to talk to provinces in sometimes very rude ways.

    - "social issues status quo" = huge increase in income disparity, loss of social mobility, large increase in divides based on religion and ethnicity.


    This is coming from a traditional PC. Harper is not a conservative. He ruined the conservative brand in Canada with his ***-backwards tea party garbage. Conservatives make rational decisions based on evidence for the good of the nation. Harper made irrational decisions based on his ideology, religion, and financial backing for the good of a very small segment of the nation.

    So for the future of the CPC: I sincerely hope they eradicate the reform plague that poisoned the brand, and return to rational governance platforms for the good of Canada.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 20-10-2015 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    Time to talk about this too...

    I hope they go for someone like Raitt over someone like Kenney. Would actually be a credible party with wider appeal.
    Lisa Raitt is hardly a barn burner. Ho Hum at best.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  14. #14

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    Unless Trudeau flames out I think it's going to take the Conservatives at least 7-8 years to come back on the federal stage.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The hardcore Conservative base would vote for Rob or Doug Ford in a heartbeat.

    Rob Ford says Doug Ford may run for Tory leadership if Stephen Harper steps down

    Doug Ford might be considering a run for the Tory leadership, according to his brother.

    "Doug said if it's a minority government, Harper's going to step down. He wants to run for leadership," Toronto Coun. Rob Ford told Bloomberg. "If it's one member, one vote, he said, you know, he's as popular as anyone else across Canada."

    Doug Ford was more reserved than his brother, reinforcing his continued support for Harper, but didn't dismiss the idea either.

    "I don't think I'll have to because hopefully he'll be prime minister for the next 20 years," he told Bloomberg. "I never say never in politics. But as of right now I am supporting the prime minister 100 per cent."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/doug...ster-1.3199767
    I hope Doug does run. That'll be hilarious. Everyone will dig deep in to his past and come up with a wonderful variety of things, like his alleged drug dealing, connections to organized crime and so on.

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    he's as popular as anyone else across Canada.
    Thanks! I just snort coffee up my nose.

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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I think they will just build off what Harper did, populist centre right mainstream policies, i.e.:

    - tough on law and order
    - strong on defense (at least, stronger than liberals)
    - low taxes
    - no deficits in normal years (i.e. not global meltdown)
    - limited federal government
    - strong provincial independence (i.e. let them "choose" what to do with the money rather than negotiated national plans - e.g. health care)
    - social issues status quo (i.e. whereever Trudeau leaves these issues, will stay same, which is what Harper did).

    People will get tired of the "ottawa knows best" Trudeau tax and spend policies soon enough, we are going to see a ton of burecratic waste, so it won't take much of a swing back to win.
    I think your interpretation of Harper's "populism" is vastly different than what the majority of Canadians see.
    How do you know what Canadians see? The Conservatives still won many votes / seats, this was a loss, but it wasn't a decimation. I think Canadians just wanted a change. As to the, "Harper didin't do this", "Harper didn't do that", peppered with elitist jargon of what's right and wrong, you are welcome to think / spin that, but its not what I think having memories back to previous Liberal governments. IMO this is the Conservative brand per above that has worked for a decade (until the government got stale, like all governments do with time), and I expect it will do fine in the future, especially once people start to see the Liberals on their "spend in Ontario / out East" spree. The elites are back in power, time will tell what it means for the rest of us, especially out West:

    The fact is, Harper is an outsider who rejected what Ibbitson calls the Laurentian elites, that small permanent governing class made up of professional politicians, bureaucrats, academics and journalists from the same central Canadian cities near or by the St. Lawrence River, who share the same values, and, worse, in my view, the sure conviction that they’re the only values worth holding.

    (As Ibbitson wrote in another section of the book, “truth be told, the Toronto Star does detest this government stem to stern, and the CBC’s Laurentian world view is so deeply entrenched that those who work there don’t even know it exists.”)

    Harper probably could have belonged to the club, but from the moment he walked away from Trinity College at the University of Toronto, he rejected those people, and they rejected him right back.
    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...tical-outsider
    Last edited by moahunter; 20-10-2015 at 01:34 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Possible leaders

    Plenty of choices here:

    - Brad Wall
    - Jean Charest
    - Jason Kenney
    - Peter McKay
    - Lisa Raitt
    - Doug Ford

    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-conservatives

    And some others:

    Ottawa Conservative Pierre Poilievre, employment minster until the election

    Ontario Tory Tony Clement, president of the Treasury Board prior to the election

    Quebec Tory Maxime Bernier, minister of small business prior to the election

    B.C. Tory James Moore, minister of industry prior to the election

    Former New Brunswick premier Bernard Lord

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Ben Mulroney , lol
    He's a liberal
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    The Conservative brand of the last decade managed exactly one majority government and it looks a lot like that was based more on a weak Liberal Party than on CPC strength. Right now the CPC needs a strong leader and for JT to fumble the ball if they're going to get out of the opposition seats next time around.

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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    The Conservative brand of the last decade managed exactly one majority government and it looks a lot like that was based more on a weak Liberal Party than on CPC strength.
    You could write that statement about every Canadian government ever, there is always one stronger party, and one weaker party (otherwise, they would both win, which can't happen). Every so often a government is in power for too long and there is a change (and yes, the Conservatives were in power for a decade- even in minority you control the government / cabinet ministers, etc.) . Either that, or they do poorly and lose power very quickly (what is going to happen to the NDP in Alberta). We don't know yet which it will be for Trudeau.
    Last edited by moahunter; 20-10-2015 at 02:34 PM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    The Conservative brand of the last decade managed exactly one majority government and it looks a lot like that was based more on a weak Liberal Party than on CPC strength. Right now the CPC needs a strong leader and for JT to fumble the ball if they're going to get out of the opposition seats next time around.


    Harper also managed to hold onto 2 minority governments longer then any other in Canadian history. He porouged government only once a far cry from Creitians multiple times he suspended government to his favor. Also he guided us though the worst global recession since the dirty thirties managing the BEST out of the G8

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    managing the BEST out of the G8
    Don't believe everything you see in political ads. This was a straight up lie.

    “I was a little bit surprised to see the PM mention that,” said Mike Moffatt, an economist with the Ivey School of Business and the Mowat Centre. "We're in the middle of the pack, at best."
    http://globalnews.ca/news/2144115/re...est-in-the-g7/

    Count in that the growth was driven almost entirely by the non-renewable resource sector, and it looks even more dismal.

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    ^^^ Post-Paul Martin the Liberal party wasn't just weak, it was in total disarray. The party was in as bad or worse position than it was in 1984 post-Trudeau Sr. when Mulroney's conservatives took over 200 of 282 seats. Harper won substantially less than that in a bigger parliament, with the NDP being the primary beneficiary of the Liberal collapse.

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    Actually Swill, Harper prorogued twice. Once on December 4 2008 and again on December 30 2009. According to the same Wiki article, Chretien prorogued only once. I double checked other sources on the internet and alas, it looks like Chretien did in fact just do it once in 2003.

    But hey - why let facts get in the way of quality Conservative propaganda & lies?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prorogation_in_Canada

  26. #26

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    A new leader that can break the 30-32% popular vote is the real hero for the CPC. They cannot rely on a great proportion of Centre-ledt vote splitting to gain seats in the future.
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  27. #27

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    ^seriously? The Liberals having just won a majority after 10 years out of power, you are predicting the Conservatives, who had a majority only 4 years ago, will never get one again?????????? OK - whatever...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    A new leader that can break the 30-32% popular vote is the real hero for the CPC. They cannot rely on a great proportion of Centre-ledt vote splitting to gain seats in the future.
    I'm curious why you would think that the Conservatives would struggle to exceed the 32% vote share they just received, considering they were at 36% or higher in the 3 elections before this one. They got 32% despite running quite a poor campaign (imo), with a fairly unlikable leader trying for his fourth mandate. Especially if the Liberals have any hiccups over their first term, I'm not sure why they would need a 'hero' to rebound, just start with someone competent, who can keep the party united, and go from there.

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    Kerry Diotte.

    Jk. It's bad enough having him as a new MP.
    $2.00 $2.25 $2.50 $2.75 $2.85 $3.00 $3.20 $3.25

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I think they will just build off what Harper did, populist centre right mainstream policies, i.e.:

    - tough on law and order
    - strong on defense (at least, stronger than liberals)
    - low taxes
    - no deficits in normal years (i.e. not global meltdown)
    - limited federal government
    - strong provincial independence (i.e. let them "choose" what to do with the money rather than negotiated national plans - e.g. health care)
    - social issues status quo (i.e. whereever Trudeau leaves these issues, will stay same, which is what Harper did).

    People will get tired of the "ottawa knows best" Trudeau tax and spend policies soon enough, we are going to see a ton of burecratic waste, so it won't take much of a swing back to win.
    Trudeau will just hit the reset button on deficit spending and for the first time in a couple generations (that lived with both liberal and conservative government deceptions), Trudeau may actually be borrowing at a smart, opportunistic time and being honest about it. It's rather refreshing compared to the baby boomers who have forever said one thing, only to serially do another (borrow madly), thus all along "imprinting" their personal attitudes and situations on their governed bodies. Boomers are old now and finally personally debt free and suddenly government needs to - seriously - balance the books. This after having borrowed to the hilt at unimaginably high real rates in the past, they now see the light at multi-generationally low interest rates. It makes one sick at the past opportunity lost and the potentially compounding of that error by finally implementing a plan long after its time has passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Kerry Diotte.

    Jk. It's bad enough having him as a new MP.
    He might try for it though.

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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    A new leader that can break the 30-32% popular vote is the real hero for the CPC. They cannot rely on a great proportion of Centre-ledt vote splitting to gain seats in the future.
    I'm curious why you would think that the Conservatives would struggle to exceed the 32% vote share they just received, considering they were at 36% or higher in the 3 elections before this one. They got 32% despite running quite a poor campaign (imo), with a fairly unlikable leader trying for his fourth mandate. Especially if the Liberals have any hiccups over their first term, I'm not sure why they would need a 'hero' to rebound, just start with someone competent, who can keep the party united, and go from there.
    Merely saying that a next (new) leader that does a good job as Harper did for the post-cobsolidated Conservative brand in federal Canadian politics. Conservatives ran 10 ish years on a new party against Paul Martin and tge following weakness of the Liberal Party on the federal scene. To keep a solid centre-right Conservative party at that 36-38% popular vote to win, a leader as good as Harper and his team is I believe needed. In the face they lost to Trudeau, who I had no idea would win a majority, meaning both centre and left votes came to him.
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    Unlike the LPC and NDP, the CPC is a far less cohesive being. It is still a mix of PCs, Reformers and a few bigots (Okay, social/moral conservatives) held together by the lure of power and S. Harper's personality.
    Once the big man is gone, it might split into a 'normal' centre-right party (which could form a coalition with either LPc or NDP) and more extreme one (anti-abortion, anti-LGBT, anti-everything) one.
    The disconnect between teh 2 wings will only grow under leaders like Raitt, MacKay or Kenney (Brad Wall might be an exception, but don't see why he would want to herd cats).

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    The hardcore Conservative base would vote for Rob or Doug Ford in a heartbeat.

    Rob Ford says Doug Ford may run for Tory leadership if Stephen Harper steps down

    Doug Ford might be considering a run for the Tory leadership, according to his brother.

    "Doug said if it's a minority government, Harper's going to step down. He wants to run for leadership," Toronto Coun. Rob Ford told Bloomberg. "If it's one member, one vote, he said, you know, he's as popular as anyone else across Canada."

    Doug Ford was more reserved than his brother, reinforcing his continued support for Harper, but didn't dismiss the idea either.

    "I don't think I'll have to because hopefully he'll be prime minister for the next 20 years," he told Bloomberg. "I never say never in politics. But as of right now I am supporting the prime minister 100 per cent."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/doug...ster-1.3199767
    I hope Doug does run. That'll be hilarious. Everyone will dig deep in to his past and come up with a wonderful variety of things, like his alleged drug dealing, connections to organized crime and so on.
    All that stuff has already come up and he still got elected as a Councillor and came in second in the Mayoral race. Just like Rob, there's a small but solid group of people that would support him regardless of his past. Moa would probably be beside himself with glee at the prospect of the Ford brothers being picked to run the CPC. It would pretty much guarantee the Conservatives becoming the Canadian Tea Party.

  35. #35

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    Drug Doug Ford as head of the PCP PC Party. A real "Law and Order" platform.

    http://www.telesurtv.net/english/new...1018-0029.html

    Now that would would be a election winner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    All that stuff has already come up and he still got elected as a Councillor and came in second in the Mayoral race. Just like Rob, there's a small but solid group of people that would support him regardless of his past. Moa would probably be beside himself with glee at the prospect of the Ford brothers being picked to run the CPC. It would pretty much guarantee the Conservatives becoming the Canadian Tea Party.
    The scrutiny will be that much greater if he made a run. There's no guarantee that more skeletons won't come marching out of the closet, and it may even be likely.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    It's rather refreshing compared to the baby boomers who have forever said one thing, only to serially do another (borrow madly), thus all along "imprinting" their personal attitudes and situations on their governed bodies.
    I'm not a baby boomer, but I know what its like to be in debt, and I know that it sucks to have debt passed on to you from a prior generation (or in my case, family). I don't think its fair to our kids to go out on a spending spree buying up gold plated roads and rail and cbc growth, and similar, because when its their turn, they are also going to need roads and rail and similar, but they will also have a big wad of interest to pay. Ontario is in that position now, and it sucks big time for them, what do they have to show for all their debt? Infrastructure, like your house, is important, but managing your costs and living within your means, is also very important, and like it or not, we can't always have as nice a house as we would like. Budgets don't just balance themselves, and politicians, whose job it is to "spend money", get very addicted to that power/feeling very quickly if it isn't managed well.
    Last edited by moahunter; 21-10-2015 at 08:38 AM.

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    I agree with moahunter and others that these results aren't as bad for the Conservatives as some are making out. A few points...

    - Despite the supposed antipathy of Quebec to Harperism, the Conservatives went from 5 to 12 seats in that province. Granted, this might have had something to do with the niqab, but still, seats won by exploiting a particular issue are as valid as any other. And there will almost certainly be other such wedges in the future.

    - Check out an electoral map of southern Ontario. As per John Ibbitson's predictions, it would seem that this region(minus the larger urban areas) is for the foreseeable future a solid Conservative bastion.

    - They managed to maintain a significant presence in western Canada, with a geographically unbroken chain of Conservative ridings stretching from the BC interior to eastern Manitoba.

    - 99 seats is nothing to sneeze at. They are a more than respectable opposition.

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    ^^

    Infrastructure deficit is a load of bunk thrown around by municipalities to extract more money from higher levels of government.

    If they were competent at managing what they collect through property tax, they would have enough to provide all the infrastructure they need and in most cases show a surplus.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Kerry Diotte.

    Jk. It's bad enough having him as a new MP.
    He might try for it though.
    What could he campaign on? There are very few potholes on roads under federal control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    ^^

    Infrastructure deficit is a load of bunk thrown around by municipalities to extract more money from higher levels of government.

    If they were competent at managing what they collect through property tax, they would have enough to provide all the infrastructure they need and in most cases show a surplus.


    What a load a BS.

    1) Infrastructure deficits are the calculation of the total maintenance and new capital investment needed to support the population. They are based on documents written by engineers citing the structural integrity and load of current infrastructure. They are NOT make-believe numbers. They are very real, objectively created calculations.

    2) Municipalities are by FAR and away the most fiscally responsible level of government. How fiscally responsible you ask? They are not even legally allowed to run deficits. Running a deficit isn't even a question, and that is while the province and fed are constantly downloading their responsibilities without any associated funding.

    All municipal financial data is publicly available on the municipal affairs website. I suggest you take a look, because what you seem to believe is patently false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Drug Doug Ford as head of the PCP PC Party. A real "Law and Order" platform.

    http://www.telesurtv.net/english/new...1018-0029.html

    Now that would would be a election winner.

    You know this is one picture that says legalize marijuana. Ford and his family look happy and normal. Harper's family look like they would rather be smoking a blunt with Doug.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    All that stuff has already come up and he still got elected as a Councillor and came in second in the Mayoral race. Just like Rob, there's a small but solid group of people that would support him regardless of his past. Moa would probably be beside himself with glee at the prospect of the Ford brothers being picked to run the CPC. It would pretty much guarantee the Conservatives becoming the Canadian Tea Party.
    The scrutiny will be that much greater if he made a run. There's no guarantee that more skeletons won't come marching out of the closet, and it may even be likely.
    Unless they find evidence of his actually murdering a bus load of nuns, personally witnessed by everyone that would vote for him, I doubt there's much more that could come out that would stop them from supporting him.

    Look how much evidence came out against Rob Ford and he got elected to council again. If crack & heroin and pot and booze and violence and offering your wife up for sex with strangers wouldn't dissuade their supporters, I can't imagine what could. Expand that support across the rest of the country and he'd have a fairly solid base for a CPC leadership run. You just need to make sure that your supporters are picked as delegates. The bar for winning a party leadership race is much lower than it is for a federal election win.

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    Jim is probably kicking himself right now. if he hadn't made the ill-fated jump to the Alberta PCs he would be a leading candidate for leadership.

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    Liepert paints woeful picture of campaign quarrels, lack of respect
    http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...ack-of-respect

    Very interesting read. No matter what anyone thinks of Liepert, you gotta appreciate his bluntness.
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  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Actually Swill, Harper prorogued twice. Once on December 4 2008 and again on December 30 2009. According to the same Wiki article, Chretien prorogued only once. I double checked other sources on the internet and alas, it looks like Chretien did in fact just do it once in 2003.

    But hey - why let facts get in the way of quality Conservative propaganda & lies?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prorogation_in_Canada
    Unfortunately in the Wiki age what really is a fact? Other sources at times (not saying this one) quote or reference or use information from wiki as if its fact. just saying.

    In anycase I'm not a conservative, and I'm not a Harper fan but I will say that Harper conducted himself and his party better through two minority governments than the Scandal plagued Chretien administrations not even mentioning Chretiens own reprehensible actions.

    An assertion was made before that Harper actually functioned, and kept himself and party in check more during the minority terms and that they lost that grounding as a majority government.

    I also think Harper is burned out and that the Conservatives own scandals and damage control did a number on him.

    He's certainly aged appreciably over the last decade. Joe Clark looks younger...
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Technically every legislative session ends in prorogation. What we're talking about here could be called strategic prorogation where the governing party requests the Governor General to prorogue Parliament for political reasons. As far as I know this has only happened four times in Canadian history. The first by Sir John A. Macdonald, but, notably, the GG took measures that ultimately forced Macdonald to resign for his abuse of power. There wasn't a strategic use of prorogation again until 2002 when Chretien used it to try and shut down the investigations into the sponsorship scandal. That also failed as when Parliament reconvened the investigation continued and Chretien ultimately resigned.

    The next two uses were by Harper, first in 2008 to avoid a non-confidence vote, and the second during the Olympic Games in 2010. The former is considered to be the most egregious abuse of prorogation in Canadian history. The latter, while ostensibly for the games, appears to have been more about shutting down the investigation into the treatment of Afghan detainees.

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  48. #48

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    Andrew Coyne with a thundering indictment of the Conservative party and it's hollow core. Those who truly subscribe to politically conservative principles (and not empty partisanship) can do nothing but nod their heads in agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Andrew Coyne with a thundering indictment of the Conservative party and it's hollow core. Those who truly subscribe to politically conservative principles (and not empty partisanship) can do nothing but nod their heads in agreement.
    A very good piece. This in particular:

    Only four years ago, indeed, it appeared the country was on the verge of a realignment; the new Conservative coalition, of the West and Ontario, seemed built to last. That the Tories should have thrown it all away since then is a remarkable testament to what arrogance, paranoia and an obsession with control can do. There have been worse defeats, it is true: the party has a base to rebuild on. But unless the culture changes, it should not count on being returned to power any time soon.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  50. #50

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    ^someone's been spending too much time drinking with the CBC elites...

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Plenty of choices here:

    - Brad Wall
    - Jean Charest
    - Jason Kenney
    - Peter McKay
    - Lisa Raitt
    - Doug Ford

    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...-conservatives

    And some others:

    Ottawa Conservative Pierre Poilievre, employment minster until the election

    Ontario Tory Tony Clement, president of the Treasury Board prior to the election

    Quebec Tory Maxime Bernier, minister of small business prior to the election

    B.C. Tory James Moore, minister of industry prior to the election

    Former New Brunswick premier Bernard Lord
    Nobody has mentioned Jim Prentice? He's not up to much right now...


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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^someone's been spending too much time drinking with the CBC elites...
    Nah, I can't afford to drink with them.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  53. #53

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    ^lol, I'm sure Andrew got his share of expensed perks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^someone's been spending too much time drinking with the CBC elites...
    Do you have any somewhat intelligent comments or criticisms on the piece? Or just typical ad hominem garbage?

  55. #55

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    The Conservatives in 2015 are like the Liberals in 2006 a party in denial.

    The Liberals had 30.2% of the popular vote in 2006, the Conservatives 31.9% in 2015.

    Both totals were big enough to produce a 100 seat caucus and to keep the stalwarts on artificial inspiration.

    But in truth the Liberals in 2006 were a party with a dead legacy of having been the Party in Power, and their support was extremely soft.

    It is true that the Conservatives in 2015 are a party with a dead legacy of vile racism, utter disrespect for non-Conservatives, and total corruption of every principle, whether political, social, moral, or merely human. In that sense their support is likely harder.

    But for the same reason that non-Liberals for ten years had nothing to attract them to the Liberal Party until Trudeau came along and formulated a clear platform and a clearer style, non-Conservatives today have nothing to attract them to the Conservative party until the rotten core of divisiveness, hatred, and self-love is replaced with something else.

    This will be more difficult for the Conservatives than it was for the Liberals for a very simple reason.

    The Liberals have never been and are not today a national movement. They are a political party, for better or worse. The failings of Liberal politicians are not the failings of Liberal voters, and Liberal voters need only switch their vote to correct any errors made by the Liberal party.

    The Conservatives, on the other hand, have been since their abortable formation in 2003 a national movement first and foremost. Racism, divisiveness, hatred, disrespect, and self-love are a feature of the Conservative voter before they are a feature of the politicians they vote for.

    Non-Conservatives in Canada will not forget ten years of gloating "libtard", "lefturd", etc. insult, all the nancy-boy crap, all the overheated near-sexual craze that drove the attitudes of Conservatives in power and Conservatives in the voting booth and in the public discussions. They will not forget this until Conservatives -- not just the party but the voters -- rip out this vile streak in their core and replace it with respect.

    The Conservatives are of course welcome to replace Harper with someone else who will tweak the platform in whatever way. Until they do something with their attitude, however -- and this applies not the party but to the 30% of the population that support it -- they will convert no one at all to their cause.

    Learn respect, and then we can talk about power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Andrew Coyne with a thundering indictment of the Conservative party and it's hollow core. Those who truly subscribe to politically conservative principles (and not empty partisanship) can do nothing but nod their heads in agreement.

    Great article. Expresses problems with reformacon party perfectly. I especially like the "toxic tories" comment. Just like the republicans in the states, our conservative party has been plagued with people who will stand behind anything, no matter how ridiculous or repulsive, in order to gain a vote (until it backfires). Things like racism, religion, abuse of power, and suppression of facts have no place in a conservative party.

    The only party faction that was really served was the yahoo faction, the “toxic Tories” as a friend calls them, to whom this government truckled and whose loyalty was rewarded in turn. MPs who were willing to say the opposite of what they believed, or believe the opposite of the facts, were promoted; those who were not found themselves out of cabinet, or indeed out of the party.

    Conservatives need to rediscover what it is they stand for, and having done so, stand for it. At the same time, they need to sever themselves from the bullying, sneering culture of the Harperites, of the low brow and the lower blow.
    The conservatism I know is respectful, rational, objective, and calm. It is not a party that caters to the worst element of our society: the racists, the paranoid, and the hateful.

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    ^ one of her tweets from the rant:

    She must have had a glass of wine. She couldn't possibly be saying these things out of sound sober thought. I mean, really.
    Funny, that is exactly what I thought. A leader does not gain support by saying "But but but but she's so YOUNG and ONLY FOUR YEARS and SO BOSSY" or "Even though you were born Michelle Marie Godin in French Manitoba, your French is slightly ******."

    Completely immature display, unbecoming of an MP.

  59. #59

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    This tweet (taken from the CBC story) in reply to Rempel sums up the point I was making above:

    @MichelleRempel helped with one of the most racist, sexist campaigns in Cdn history. Never forget that fact. I won't. #cdnpoli #Elxn42 /10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ one of her tweets from the rant:

    She must have had a glass of wine. She couldn't possibly be saying these things out of sound sober thought. I mean, really.
    Funny, that is exactly what I thought. A leader does not gain support by saying "But but but but she's so YOUNG and ONLY FOUR YEARS and SO BOSSY" or "Even though you were born Michelle Marie Godin in French Manitoba, your French is slightly ******."

    Completely immature display, unbecoming of an MP.
    I don't think so at all. She's sarcastically outlining some pretty widespread issues that women face in when trying to advance in politics and business. Men are assertive and commanding. Women are b i t c h y, and so on. Look at a lot of the commentary around Hillary Clinton, for example.

  61. #61

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    Rempel Rants - Sounds like one tequila two tequila three tequila floor.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  62. #62

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    ^^ it is a wider issue in politics (and society in general) not specific to liberals or conservatives, women are perceived as being a b$%$ if they are assesrtive, whereas men are just seen as being comanding.

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    I don't think so at all. She's outlining some pretty widespread issues that women face in politics and business. Men are assertive and commanding. Women are b i t c h y, and so on. Look at a lot of the commentary around Hillary Clinton, for example.
    Her language is absolutely immature. If she wants to address those important issues, the right way to do it is through a serious discussion, not a profanity-laden twitter rant devoid of substance. She is a member of parliament, not a student activist. Time to act like it.

    ^ This is not "assertive". This is immature ranting.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 22-10-2015 at 11:00 AM.

  64. #64

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    Yeah, twitter is not exactly the forum for deep discussion. She sounds strung out.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't think so at all. She's outlining some pretty widespread issues that women face in politics and business. Men are assertive and commanding. Women are b i t c h y, and so on. Look at a lot of the commentary around Hillary Clinton, for example.
    Her language is absolutely immature.
    I don't think so, I read through the tweets, they are fine. Certainly not as immature as "whipping out" some CF18's.

  66. #66

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    I'd love to see the CPC go even further to the right and go whole Tea Party. Embrace their Reform roots as opposed to their Progressive Conservatives ones. Find a Donald Trump or Sarah Palin type and just embrace them. "The problem was that we moved too close to the middle. Time to get back to demonizing not just Muslims but gays and immigrants and anyone else that isn't sufficiently WASPish. Time to take our foreign policy from the US military. Time to continue to insist that trickle down is good economics."

    Harper was running about 5-6 years behind the Republican party. Why change course?

  67. #67

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    ^^She sounds like she's talking to herself. Her rattling on about women being perceived as b*tchy when guys are perceived as assertive etc. Now, we (not me) have just voted in Justin Trudeau as prime minister of Canada. I can guarantee that his looks are going to be brought into the conversation. In fact, they already have been, numerous times. Look at what people say about Putin if he's photographed bare chested. People say he's over compensating as he must have a small ****. It's not just women that get sexist remarks made about them, men can be included in that club as well.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^ In fact, they already have been, numerous times. Look at what people say about Putin if he's photographed bare chested. People say he's over compensating as he must have a small ****.
    I thought the only thing that compensated for that was a pickup truck...

  69. #69

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    ^With Putin it's weapons of mass destruction and a pick up truck.
    Last edited by Gemini; 22-10-2015 at 10:13 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I'd love to see the CPC go even further to the right and go whole Tea Party. Embrace their Reform roots as opposed to their Progressive Conservatives ones. Find a Donald Trump or Sarah Palin type and just embrace them. "The problem was that we moved too close to the middle. Time to get back to demonizing not just Muslims but gays and immigrants and anyone else that isn't sufficiently WASPish. Time to take our foreign policy from the US military. Time to continue to insist that trickle down is good economics."

    Harper was running about 5-6 years behind the Republican party. Why change course?
    Who are you quoting here?

  71. #71

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    Not an actual quote. That would be done
    like this
    . Just what I imagine the Rob & Doug Ford wing of the CPC are thinking.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Not an actual quote. That would be done
    like this
    . Just what I imagine the Rob & Doug Ford wing of the CPC are thinking.
    I don't think he meant 'are you quoting another poster' I think he's asking if it's a quote from an article or are they your own words.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  73. #73

    Default Who's too bossy?

    Some in the party will almost certainly mutter it’s precisely this kind of behaviour that should disqualify Rempel from a serious shot at leadership. That a Twitter rant of any kind is unbecoming, immature, or indicative of a lack of discretion and impulse control.

    Maybe.

    Or maybe she’s rather brilliantly inoculated herself against charges she’s too young, inexperienced or, well, bossy.

    ...

    Women are winners. Which is why understanding Rempel’s Twitter rant becomes so important.

    Numerous studies have shown people perceive the same personality traits differently, depending on whether they of those of a woman or a man.

    Mark is assertive, Michelle is aggressive.

    Rempel’s tweets are judged according to this phenomenon: “You rub some of our caucus the wrong way,” she tweeted.
    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...-bossy-to-lead

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    ^ I find it completely absurd that she is using her gender to excuse bad behaviour. Criticism of her profane, immature rant has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with her action. If a man did this, he would be criticized in the same way.

    FYI - Rempel has done this before. She was caught sleeping/playing games on her phone / making dramatic bored faces during discussion in the house of commons, and pictures went about online of it. She dispelled it by claiming that people only cared because she was a woman. Ironically, Rob Anders got the same kind of heat for falling asleep, disproving her argument completely.

    MP Rempel: criticisms of you have nothing to do with your gender, and everything to do with your immature behaviour as an individual. Turning it into a gender discussion devalues that important issue for those truly facing discrimination, which you are markedly not.

  75. #75

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    So Here's Doug Ford's take on it. Basically, if you like Trump, you'll love his version of the CPC/

    ‘Donald Trump is borrowing from us’: Doug Ford on how to fix the Conservative party

    Donald Trump is borrowing from us. Rob blazed a new trail for politicians like that. People are tired in North America of the BS-ing politician. You tell it the way it is, you hold back nothing and the vast majority of the conservative-minded people are sharing the same ideas. Politicians are just too scared to say what we say.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/news/do...ervative-party

  76. #76

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    I like Trump because of the comedic value. As a politician he would be as much use as a plastic barbeque grill.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  77. #77

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    Welcome to the future of the Conservatives.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Welcome to the future of the Conservatives.
    What do you mean "future?"

  79. #79

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    They've got even further to the right to go. All the way to the edge, and beyond....

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    Kerry Diotte.

    Jk. It's bad enough having him as a new MP.
    He might try for it though.
    Kerry Diotte is kinda like Big Head on Silicon Valley. Does nothing, is utterly useless, a total puppet, yet keeps getting propelled up the ladder, usually as a pawn in a sinister plan to make him a scapegoat that backfires, leaving him in continually increasing positions of power with no clue how he got there, no idea what to do, so he hangs out and buys stuff with his money.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    ^Love that analogy. Now I wish it was April and there were new episodes.

    Back on topic: I'm now wondering, with his recent comments, whether Peter MacKay will make a run for it.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  82. #82

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    I can't imagine the Reformer wing of the CPC accepting MacKay. He's too much connected with the Progressive wing of the party and the Refomers are now the base of the party.

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    A good read in the Globe & Mail on how Harper's Conservatives became unravelled during the election campaign. Love it when Harperites pull out the knives and back stab their own.

    How Harper's Conservative reign came to an end

    The campaign director, accused by others at her party’s highest level of being unprepared and lacking personal discipline, had been marginalized. The communications director was being all but physically barred from the leader he was supposed to be serving, because of suspicions he didn’t have that leader’s best interests in mind. People with limited campaign experience were lashing out because they had been set up to fail in senior roles for which they were unprepared. Nobody was firmly in charge.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle26963900/
    p.s...Kory Teneycke, Harper's communications director and former Sun Media executive got his just rewards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ^Love that analogy. Now I wish it was April and there were new episodes.

    Back on topic: I'm now wondering, with his recent comments, whether Peter MacKay will make a run for it.
    He certainly did not perform well in his various cabinet positions, but it's entirely possible that had as much to do with Harper's iron grip on controlling everything as it did with MacKay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    ^Love that analogy. Now I wish it was April and there were new episodes.

    Back on topic: I'm now wondering, with his recent comments, whether Peter MacKay will make a run for it.
    He certainly did not perform well in his various cabinet positions, but it's entirely possible that had as much to do with Harper's iron grip on controlling everything as it did with MacKay.
    He also conveniently bailed before the election so he's not tarnished by the loss.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  86. #86

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    U'm hearing that he's considering running for the leadership of the provincial Cons in NS. Lets him stay closer to home and not have to deal with the national scene.

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    Closer to home and miss world wife and kid

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    U'm hearing that he's considering running for the leadership of the provincial Cons in NS. Lets him stay closer to home and not have to deal with the national scene.
    He might want to consult with Prentice on that plan.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  89. #89

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    Nova Scotia isn't Alberta. They actually change parties on a fairly regular basis, not every 40 years or so. No time to get fat and sassy.

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    Ex-foreign affairs minister John Baird considering bid for Tory leadership

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ick=sf_globefb
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  91. #91

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    ^That would be interesting. Baird gives me the impression of someone who's a legend in his own mind.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    In the interim leader race we have Diane Finley, Erin O'Toole and Rob Nicholson. Plus some drama over the first caucus meeting post-election with a move to exclude defeated MPs from attending. Traditionally that meeting includes outgoing and incoming MPs but it sounds like Harper's people don't want to give the defeated a chance to vent on him.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin...ives-1.3288843

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  93. #93

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    Longtime Ottawa MP and former senior cabinet minister John Baird will not seek the Conservative party leadership, he announced Monday morning.
    A newspaper report on Monday said Baird was seriously considering a run at the leadership to replace Stephen Harper, who resigned the post following the Oct. 19 election defeat.
    But Baird issued a news release announcing he is not interested in the Conservative leadership and remains happy with his life in the private sector.


    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...401/story.html

    Seems he's not interested in running.
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    Baird left to have a private life,I believed him when he said he wanted that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    In the interim leader race we have Diane Finley, Erin O'Toole and Rob Nicholson. Plus some drama over the first caucus meeting post-election with a move to exclude defeated MPs from attending. Traditionally that meeting includes outgoing and incoming MPs but it sounds like Harper's people don't want to give the defeated a chance to vent on him.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin...ives-1.3288843
    Ever controlling and paranoid, even in defeat.

  96. #96

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    So are they just going to install another alpha dog who has ultimate control over everything they say and do? Arf Arf!

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    They are going to install an interim leader that will hold things together as they search for a replacement to restart the party. Just like Bob Rae held together the scraps of the liberals as they searched for Trudeau.

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    In the interim leader race we have Diane Finley, Erin O'Toole and Rob Nicholson. Plus some drama over the first caucus meeting post-election with a move to exclude defeated MPs from attending. Traditionally that meeting includes outgoing and incoming MPs but it sounds like Harper's people don't want to give the defeated a chance to vent on him.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin...ives-1.3288843
    Ever controlling and paranoid, even in defeat.
    Maybe just ridding themselves of the deadwood as fast as possible.

  99. #99
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    In the interim leader race we have Diane Finley, Erin O'Toole and Rob Nicholson. Plus some drama over the first caucus meeting post-election with a move to exclude defeated MPs from attending. Traditionally that meeting includes outgoing and incoming MPs but it sounds like Harper's people don't want to give the defeated a chance to vent on him.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin...ives-1.3288843
    Ever controlling and paranoid, even in defeat.
    Maybe just ridding themselves of the deadwood as fast as possible.
    Harper's still there.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  100. #100
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    Zing!

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