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Thread: Undoing a Klein Disaster: Poverty in the Core, what to do?

  1. #1

    Default Undoing a Klein Disaster: Poverty in the Core, what to do?

    So, like, I'm not a moderator and can't move other posts, but there's been this discussion shooting off the side of the ICE District thread that started something like:

    1."ICE District is bad because it is moving into another group's 'hood."
    Directly counter to this has been an argument something like:

    2."'hood's change all the time."
    Thus falling the question something like:

    3."Where will the more recent residents go?"
    Having been countered basically with:

    4."We need a comprehensive vision from the Provincial Government(s) of how to meld Klein-Era-Disaster-Recovery with "modern practice".
    Which, while unanswered specifically, deserves its own thread.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ I do hear that, I do see that, but Komrade, a little longer memory please. Do you remember who was displaced from the exact same place a generation earlier, by the people you're now seeing displaced in-turn?
    To be fair, I am a young buck of just 26. Please enlighten me or point me towards resources? Is what we are seeing now similar to another time in DTs history where residents in poverty were displaced?
    No, more the opposite, where a more middling income group was "displaced" by poverty, crime and stigma.

    The neighbourhood wasn't rich as far back as I knew, but working class, and a lot of kids' first apartments after leaving their suburban middle income families.

    Three big steps down:

    1. CN closed their Downtown yards in around 1987, and all the warehouses lining the tracks emptied, and jobs moved to the Yellowhead yards.
    2. Ralph Klein halved not only Alberta Hospital funding around 1994, but also most other forms of social support (social workers, ADACC, etc.), not only releasing a large number of vulnerable people, but birthing a cottage industry of well meaning NPOs trying to take care of them.
    3. The NPOs then snapped up the empty warehouses; the empty apartments lowered their rents; suddenly people less financially and mentally stable became magnetised to the area North of the tracks; crime flourished as it often does in poverty; the remaining financially and mentally enabled people were thus further encouraged to leave, reinforcing the original trend.


    You should have seen 107 Avenue in 1985. Sharp looking buildings, well kept and busy, no streetfronting parking lots. It felt like Whyte Ave does today, but without the brawling frat boys or, ironically, the panhandlers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Not trying to be ignorant, rather seek knowledge
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  3. #3
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    The gentrification issue is a very difficult one. Is it fair to have people pushed out of their area by costs? Is it fair to expect the majority of citizens in a city to keep their core poverty stricken, dangerous, and low value?

    Neither is fair. Unfortunately it is only in the city's power and budget to fix one of these issues. The answer to me is pretty clear: the city should focus on revitalizing downtown, and the province should do their constitutional job and provide mental health services and affordable housing.

    The problem here is not that the city is developing, it is that the province hasn't being doing their job. I think it is deeper than a "Klein issue" as well. We have never done a good job of this as a province in our entire history.

    Specific actions include:

    1) Allow municipalities to utilize inclusionary zoning to ensure citizens have access to affordable housing without putting financial burden on ratepayers.

    2) Reorient primary health care around provincially-run, team based community health centres that include dedicated mental health practitioners.

    3) Improve access to secondary health care for addictions and other mental health issues.

    4) Strengthen regulation around poverty-causing businesses such as payday lending operations.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 10-12-2015 at 06:30 AM.

  4. #4

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    Why does the thread blame poverty in the core on Klein? Very brave to lay all the blame for a societal issue on one politician who has passed away. Specifically:

    1. Was there no poverty in the core before Klein? I don't think that's the case, there are various stories on Edmonton going back to near the beginning with issues of poverty (often among marginalized and poll taxed Chinese immigrants).
    2. Do other cities in Canada have no poverty in their core? Where is this utopia that has none? Plenty of cities who had more left wing premiers have more poverty in their cores, not less. Take for example, Vancouver east (oh, but I guess Kleins to blame for that too...)
    3. I guess if poverty increases over the next few years, that will be blamed on Klein too, not Notley or Iveson, or Trudeau? Just throwing money at problems doesn't solve them, anymore than taking money away causes them.

    My personal view is that I don't like gentrification - it just pushes people to other parts of the city, or hides them from view (put them in housing and the problems will magically go away). I think we should design cities in ways that can accommodate all types of people, whether they choose, or through fate, to be material / career focused, or not. Ideally first nations groups and immigrant communities should be part of that design process, with reach out leadership programs and similar, to help people refind their culture. Also need to spread social services throughout the city, especially low income housing, instead of always putting it in the cheapest locations, which just concentrates poverty. The city has to stand up to NIMBY communities, and to require as part of the process to approve land for greenfield, that social housing be included. Until there is a mayor who has the courage and personality to lead a council to do that, not much will change, the lack of conviction and courage of todays leaders is not Kleins fault.
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-12-2015 at 08:12 AM.

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    It was an issue before Klein. Klein however made it several times worse, and crippled our ability to effectively address the problem for almost 20 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Why does the thread blame poverty in the core on Klein? Very brave to lay all the blame for a societal issue on one politician who has passed away. Specifically:

    1. Was there no poverty in the core before Klein? I don't think that's the case, there are various stories on Edmonton going back to near the beginning with issues of poverty (often among marginalized and poll taxed Chinese immigrants).
    I worked for an inner-city NPO on and off from 1990 until about 1997, and yes, I can assure you that the place was mired in poverty and its attendant social dysfunctions, well before Klein came along.

    Which is not to say that he didn't make things worse by clearing the asylums, he very well may have. I didn't really notice anything, but these things are kinda hard to quantify at the ground level.

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    We are way beyond stopping gentrification in the core - not to say that there aren't big issues remaining - but it is happening...a stunning statistic would be Alberta Ave as an example - from 2001 to 2010, showed a large reduction of households making $49,999 or less, and a large increase in households making $100,000 or more.

    This was inevitable - the core couldn't stay "poor" and "underprivileged" forever just because it has been that way for as long back as we can remember.

    Times are changing, with all the investment in the core, new carbon taxes, Edmonton traffic becoming a big issue, some surburban neighborhoods loosing their bus service.

    Then there's what the late Millennials and the early Gen Z's are interested in since some of them are entering the housing market now - they are less likely to get driver's licenses and are more urban minded...very much drawn to the city and transit nodes...they have also seen their parents go through 2 serious recessions now. I've read a few papers now that notice they are more apt to purchase centralized properties to use as a "launch pad" for activities and socialization - they're not really into huge yards, large houses, big commutes...they want to maximize their time socializing or on activities.

    Our core is about 15 years behind the rest of North America with it's urbanist movement, but we can't stop it even if we wanted to at this point.

    The only solution to this issue is forcing new developments to have poverty services zoned into them. Affordable housing? Soup Kitchens? Drop in centres? Zoned in from the beginning and non negotiable. Taking a hard line on the Terwillegar Towne minded people are taking them to court to enforce existing zoning uses instead of bending to the social networking "outrage" and the tiresome petitions nobody cares about.

    This is ALL Edmontonians fixing an Edmontonian problem...not the core neighborhoods shouldering Edmontonian problems.

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    This!

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    This is ALL Edmontonians fixing an Edmontonian problem...not the core neighborhoods shouldering Edmontonian problems.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  9. #9

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    Gentrification=wait for the $25 bowl of artisanal cereal. And we wonder why the poor folk leave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    We are way beyond stopping gentrification in the core - not to say that there aren't big issues remaining - but it is happening...a stunning statistic would be Alberta Ave as an example - from 2001 to 2010, showed a large reduction of households making $49,999 or less, and a large increase in households making $100,000 or more.

    This was inevitable - the core couldn't stay "poor" and "underprivileged" forever just because it has been that way for as long back as we can remember.

    Times are changing, with all the investment in the core, new carbon taxes, Edmonton traffic becoming a big issue, some surburban neighborhoods loosing their bus service.

    Then there's what the late Millennials and the early Gen Z's are interested in since some of them are entering the housing market now - they are less likely to get driver's licenses and are more urban minded...very much drawn to the city and transit nodes...they have also seen their parents go through 2 serious recessions now. I've read a few papers now that notice they are more apt to purchase centralized properties to use as a "launch pad" for activities and socialization - they're not really into huge yards, large houses, big commutes...they want to maximize their time socializing or on activities.

    Our core is about 15 years behind the rest of North America with it's urbanist movement, but we can't stop it even if we wanted to at this point.

    The only solution to this issue is forcing new developments to have poverty services zoned into them. Affordable housing? Soup Kitchens? Drop in centres? Zoned in from the beginning and non negotiable. Taking a hard line on the Terwillegar Towne minded people are taking them to court to enforce existing zoning uses instead of bending to the social networking "outrage" and the tiresome petitions nobody cares about.

    This is ALL Edmontonians fixing an Edmontonian problem...not the core neighborhoods shouldering Edmontonian problems.
    Bravo. Spoken like a true property speculator.
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    haha what's happened expat? You've softened up the past 3 years - back then, you would have said something that would have gotten under the skin.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Why does the thread blame poverty in the core on Klein? Very brave to lay all the blame for a societal issue on one politician who has passed away. Specifically:

    1. Was there no poverty in the core before Klein? I don't think that's the case, there are various stories on Edmonton going back to near the beginning with issues of poverty (often among marginalized and poll taxed Chinese immigrants).
    I worked for an inner-city NPO on and off from 1990 until about 1997, and yes, I can assure you that the place was mired in poverty and its attendant social dysfunctions, well before Klein came along.

    Which is not to say that he didn't make things worse by clearing the asylums, he very well may have. I didn't really notice anything, but these things are kinda hard to quantify at the ground level.
    Yes, poverty always existed, and may always exist, but what moahunter is moronically arguing is that that makes there no difference between "bad" and "worse" and "much worse" and especially idiotically "unneccesarily damagingly much much worse."

    Homelessness is one fair measure of poverty (of course not the only one) and this is what things looked like under that genius Klein:



    Note Klein is finally forced out by 2007.

    Note also that the timescale is not linear, the first four data points are at 6 month intervals, while subsequent data points are at intervals of two years.

    Note also of course that the graph starts around 6 years after Klein was first given responsibility of physical and mental health in the Province. As I've previously estimated, I guess there were less than 50 "unsheltered" when he started. It was the alarming apparent ten-fold rise that caused Homeward Trust to attempt counting in the first place.

    Source
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    This!

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    This is ALL Edmontonians fixing an Edmontonian problem...not the core neighborhoods shouldering Edmontonian problems.
    Agree with the direction, but not the limit: this problem is bigger than Edmonton, and legally the responsibility of the Province.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  14. #14

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    ^While I do get your point about Klein not helping the homeless in any meaningful way a lot of homelessness could be in part due to an influx of workers that flooded the province for work. A lot of those would have been guys that fell through the cracks at one point or other due to drugs/alcohol/gambling and found themselves homeless. There could be a spike in homelessness that correlates with the spike of people coming into the province. That wave of people probably happened while Klein was in power.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^While I do get your point about Klein not helping the homeless in any meaningful way a lot of homelessness could be in part due to an influx of workers that flooded the province for work. A lot of those would have been guys that fell through the cracks at one point or other due to drugs/alcohol/gambling and found themselves homeless. There could be a spike in homelessness that correlates with the spike of people coming into the province. That wave of people probably happened while Klein was in power.
    (emphasis mine)

    Kindof, but I suppose I should have mentioned Klein's decentralising alcohol retailing and introduction and flooding of VLTs. This only underlines the point, really. He was an unmitigated disaster for the vulnerable, and it's costing us as a city I bet something over double the policing costs, and needlessly straining/draining the Province's own healthcare system.

    Unlike what moahunter tries to say, we save no money by ignoring homelessness.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post


    I really do feel your pain.

    It's such a shame they can't all be "Tame" and entertaining isn't it. Edmonton's vagrants really do need to up their game, if they are to have any hope of achieving the outstanding, or dare I say world class quality of their Vancouver counterparts.


    This might sound odd, but is this sarcasm? Seriously. I haven't been to Vancouver since Expo 86. (Except changing planes at YVR.)
    What kind of answer is that? Vancouver's issues are superficially well known, but in which way are their "vagrants" different? I can tell you Tokyo's "vagrants" are extraordinarily polite, and maybe never panhandle.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Who the **** refers to other human beings as "tame" and insists they behave like performing monkeys just to make him feel more comfortable?.. Of course I was being sarcastic, the poster was being a patronising twat.

    Are street folks more aggressive in Edmonton than elsewhere?..Not that I've ever noticed.
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  18. #18

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    ^ Oh. Okay.

    I don't find on balance our street folk aggressive, except there are a significant number of obvious cases of untreated mental conditions (including, but by no means limited to addictions) out there, that I wish were treated at very least.

    As mentioned though, the Tokyo street folk etiquette would put several of our privileged classes to shame.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  19. #19

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    Just so that it doesn't look like I discriminate between stupid Calgarian conservative premiers, look at that massive crater in the data during so-called "social liberal" Alison Redford's time in office (sandwiched between Stelmach and Hancock.)



    https://twitter.com/doniveson/status...487936/photo/1



    Gee, I wonder what it would look like with K----y?

    But the alternative leaving them to sleep rough in the river valley or on the streets is less compassionate and more expensive, said Iveson. We are spending ourselves into a huge hole chasing homeless people between the justice system and the health-care system.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...d-homelessness
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  20. #20

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    ^ In fairness a few things. Spending on same had been quite high in the preceding years and with a lot of non market housing being built, funded, slotted to fill need.

    Homeless counts in Edmonton and other cities were fraught with problems, underestimated the numbers of homeless, and perhaps adding to the thought that the prior housing starts would address the needs that were there.

    Finally, funding can often be a shell game that takes a while for the stats to catch up. Funding streams are often switched up so that funding comes in a different way, tagged as a different thing. It makes stat keeping so difficult as provinces find different ways to fund similar needs. Maybe different initiatives were put in place to service some of the needs.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  21. #21

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    ^ that would be what I call an extreme reach.

    Clearly Redford's cabal was of the belief that we should pay over a factor of 10 higher for chaufferring the homeless with police officers and accommodating them in hospitals and remand centres (not only the most expensive "apartments" in the Province, but the most expensive buildings period.) instead of bachelor suites and bus tickets.

    Same as Klein, same as moahunter, same as Kenney. Just try to appear "tough on spending against people who make their own mistakes" and completely ignore the full accounting picture (and the full and diverse reasons people end up on the streets in the first place.)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  22. #22

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    Just playing devils advocate on that one. I'm disgusted with the Cons as anyone. Not making excuses for either Redford, or Klein, just that stats alone don't always tell a story.

    That's not at all where I'm at on the politico spectrum Jaybee.

    More the case, if you recall I'm advocating the city spending money to also address homelessness instead of you know, largesse of financing billionaire pro sports arenas..
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  23. #23

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    ^ which ardent homeless advocates have now actually endorsed as having had a very positive impact on the homeless nearby for shining the police spotlight on drugs and gangs in the area?

    And let me remind you that while Redford spent zilch on homelessness, she also spent zilch on the arena. Absolutely no chance that one was taking funds from the other, because in Edmonton, why pay for anything?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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