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Thread: New transit boss says time is right for changes to Edmonton transit strategy

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    Default New transit boss says time is right for changes to Edmonton transit strategy

    New transit boss says time is right for changes to Edmonton transit strategy
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ansit-strategy

    The stars have aligned for major change in Edmonton’s bus and light rail network strategy, says Edmonton’s new transit boss, now three weeks into the job.

    “That doesn’t happen really often,” said Eddie Robar, formerly director of transit in Halifax. “That takes a lot. That takes a council ready for it. It takes a city management and staff that’s prepared to undergo that work, and it takes a public that hungry for that change as well.”

    Robar said he spent his first weeks on the job meeting internally with staff. What he saw convinced him a large re-alignment is doable. “Are people ready for it? I think so,” he said.

    In an interview Monday, Robar said the biggest weakness of Edmonton’s current transit system comes from competing philosophies. It hasn’t seen large-scale change since 1990. It was designed as a hub-and-spoke network, with buses and trains meeting at transit centres to accommodate transfers. Then it gradually shifted to a direct service model, where buses go to destinations with as few transfers as possible. It’s shifting back again, but these incremental changes can leave the system confusing and inefficient.

    “That philosophy piece has been disjointed over years,” Robar said. “At some point, you have to retool that.”

    Edmonton is in the middle of a $1.4-million public engagement effort to design a new transit strategy. Officials have finished asking “blue sky” questions on what people think of the current system, said Sarah Feldman, project manager for the strategy. They’ve also finished narrowing the conversation down to key themes and plan to release those in a report early February.

    The next steps are to calculate specifically what trade-offs are involved for different options, such as more frequent bus service. They’ll start consultations on that this spring. Residents can follow the process at edmonton.ca/whatmovesyou.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    If the Liberals follow through on their campaign promises, we could be soon seeing the most rapid expansion of transit infrastructure in Canada's history across the entire country. Hundreds of billions in funding, and access to huge amounts of extremely low interest credit through the new "Canada Infrastructure Bank".

    I hope our transit strategy is prepared to take full advantage of this.

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    Please oh please a central circulator - Jasper-109st-Whyte-Scona Rd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Please oh please a central circulator - Jasper-109st-Whyte-Scona Rd.
    or even just a 'downtown' circulator...

    Jasper, 124st, 104th ave, 97/95 st.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Please oh please a central circulator - Jasper-109st-Whyte-Scona Rd.
    or even just a 'downtown' circulator...

    Jasper, 124st, 104th ave, 97/95 st.
    Those are served reasonably well, getting to central whyte is a pain.
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    I think something like 109 Street-Saskatchewan Drive-Whyte Avenue-99 Street-McDougall Hill-100 Street-103 Avenue would work great.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Gondola from downtown to rossdale then up across river to Whyte would fundamentally change the way we use the city. Imagine Edmonton where downtown and Whyte are part of the same walkable area. That is my number 1 on the wish list. Magnitudes cheaper to build and operate than rail, and just as effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Gondola from downtown to rossdale then up across river to Whyte would fundamentally change the way we use the city. Imagine Edmonton where downtown and Whyte are part of the same walkable area. That is my number 1 on the wish list. Magnitudes cheaper to build and operate than rail, and just as effective.
    Have you been eavesdropping on my urban design project at NAIT? That's all i've been talking about for the last week!

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    I think you should source me in your citations, because I've been ranting about this for years to anyone dull enough to start a conversation about transit in Edmonton with me.

    Is there a new program at NAIT for planning? I hadn't heard of one, but we do need more in Alberta so it would be a good thing.

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    You're taking claim for that idea that was proposed years ago on this forum?

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    I don't know about a gondola, but better Whyte-DT connections are long overdue. An efficient and frequent route would be well-used, I think.

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    And here i was thinking i was so original.

    It's just an elective for my architectural technology program, i wish there was a program for planning

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    I do hope they can move away from meandering residential busses to a quicker more direct service. Yes I know some people will have to walk further to a stop.

    I'm not sure how much power he has over the design of the Mill Woods or Lewis Estates lines, hopefully he has some ideas to make them better than the Dublin streetcar design that Transportation is lusting after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    You're taking claim for that idea that was proposed years ago on this forum?

    Yes, I'm clearly stating in a non-comedic way that I, and I alone, deserve full credit for that idea.


    It's just an elective for my architectural technology program, i wish there was a program for planning
    If you're interested, the University of Alberta has an extension certificate program in applied land use planning. I've taken some courses in it to stay up to date. Very common for municipalities to send planners/development officers there to learn the Alberta context if they are from out of province. It offers a good (but basic) introduction to planning theory, and a very good practical understanding of the legislation here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I don't know about a gondola, but better Whyte-DT connections are long overdue. An efficient and frequent route would be well-used, I think.
    I take the #7 and it works pretty well for me.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    The high level street car could be upgraded/expanded for this whyte-dt connector?

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    I thought about that one as well. The reason I picked gondola is the expectation that the city will somehow spend 500 million dollars upgrading those tracks. We just can't do affordable streetcars here. With the gondola, just hire a company to come and do it. Hire the company that build one with helicopters in whistler for $50m, I'm sure they could do our relatively flat land over half the distance for far cheaper.

    If they could do the streetcar for the same price, it would be something to look at. I just don't believe they can.

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    ^the tracks are already there, the society running it in summer send an old original LRT prototype down it.

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    Only one track though, correct? So you couldn't have trains going two ways - just one train. That service frequency wouldn't be anywhere near enough. Unless I'm wrong about that - I don't remember seeing two tracks.

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    Sounds like we're getting our high frequency, straight line bus system.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Please oh please a central circulator - Jasper-109st-Whyte-Scona Rd.
    This was my biggest wish when I sent feedback last fall.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Sounds like we're getting our high frequency, straight line bus system.
    This was my biggest thing when I did the survey. That, and fewer stops. I've noticed some buses making one stop per block which is ridiculous.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    This was my biggest thing when I did the survey. That, and fewer stops. I've noticed some buses making one stop per block which is ridiculous.
    That's always infuriated me, especially when hitting downtown, it used to take longer for me to traverse downtown in the bus with all the stops, than it did the commute in. Taking it further, I've always like the idea some cities do of just having bus transit stations in downtown, with no other stops in downtown. Two could easily cover Edmonton, say one near 109 street, and one near Churchil Square. Anywhere from there is an easy walk or LRT. Even one would perhaps be sufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    This was my biggest thing when I did the survey. That, and fewer stops. I've noticed some buses making one stop per block which is ridiculous.
    That's always infuriated me, especially when hitting downtown, it used to take longer for me to traverse downtown in the bus with all the stops, than it did the commute in. Taking it further, I've always like the idea some cities do of just having bus transit stations in downtown, with no other stops in downtown. Two could easily cover Edmonton, say one near 109 street, and one near Churchil Square. Anywhere from there is an easy walk or LRT. Even one would perhaps be sufficient.
    Less is more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Only one track though, correct? So you couldn't have trains going two ways - just one train. That service frequency wouldn't be anywhere near enough. Unless I'm wrong about that - I don't remember seeing two tracks.
    The top of the bridge used to have triple tracks. Double tracks would not be an issue and the two alternating trains could pass each other.

    We just need a signaling contractor that can install a CBTWXYZ SNFU system.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    This was my biggest thing when I did the survey. That, and fewer stops. I've noticed some buses making one stop per block which is ridiculous.
    A longer walk to a bus stop is fine for the able-bodied. Not so much for those who are elderly or disabled.

    There are very few buses that stop every block even Downtown. In my experience, it's not the stops every few blocks that slow buses down. Rather, it is buses getting caught in the congestion between stops.
    Last edited by East McCauley; 19-01-2016 at 09:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I don't know about a gondola, but better Whyte-DT connections are long overdue. An efficient and frequent route would be well-used, I think.
    I take the #7 and it works pretty well for me.
    I like the 7 as well, we live in the West End (off of 107 Avenue) and can hop on the 7 and be downtown in about twenty minutes, half an hour to Whyte. That's on a Saturday midday, mind ya- I'd reckon that travel time lengthens considerably during rush hour

    As for the actual topic at hand, though, Edmonton has needed changes to its transit strategy for at least twenty years, and probably more...

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    This was my biggest thing when I did the survey. That, and fewer stops. I've noticed some buses making one stop per block which is ridiculous.
    A longer walk to a bus stop is fine for the able-bodied. Not so much for those who are elderly or disabled.

    There are very few buses that stop every block even Downtown. In my experience, it's not the stops every few blocks that slow buses down. Rather, it is buses getting caught in the congestion between stops.
    There are a lot of bus routes downtown and even in residential routes where stops on the same side of the street are only 150 to 200 meters apart. With a bus being 12.2 m long, that is only 10-15 bus lengths between stops. IMHO, 25% of bus stops could be eliminated with proper planning.
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    I think it would be interesting to see Edmonton consider BRT. On the other hand, I really think the City should reconsider TOD around LRT seriously since there isn't a single successful local example outside of downtown. For that matter, they should look into the raison d'etre of LRT - Calgary builds gigantic park and ride lots in the suburban LRT stations to try and reduce downtown congestion and it seems to work (that and free downtown rides).

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    ^ In the last 2 decades, Stadium Station has generated nine new medium density infill developments, a central grocery store, a hospital, a community centre, and a recreation centre before any real TOD planning.

    Granted it's not complete, but far more is coming from the Brookfield development, and in fact the biggest remaining impediment to further progress is a "free" parking lot in the cold clutches of ETS.

    The "free" parking along the line is also the biggest impediment to Northlands' on-going viability (as a paid parking operator).
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Clareview has generated a some residential too

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    Oh lordy, that's depressing. We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if those are successes.

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    Century Park!!!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_Park,_Edmonton

    IMHO, Clareview, Old Fort Road, Century Park, Coliseum, Stadium and several others are LRT stations surrounded by surface parking lots, big box stores, industrial buildings, city services, major roads or ROW and vacant lots with a smattering of high density residential.

    Hardly what I call a TOD or a success compared to other cities such as Vancouver or Toronto.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 21-01-2016 at 06:56 PM.
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    A modified straight line system of express buses connecting transit centres would work wonders. Imagine Abbotsfield, Clareview, Londonderry (not a transit centre but a major transfer point), Eaux Claires, Northgate as an example. 5 stops. Run it on a 10 or 15 minute frequency.

    Or Abbotsford, Coliseum, 97 st (see Londonderry), NAIT, Wstmount, Jasper Place, Meadowlark, WEM. 8 stops cross town.

    Local routes should serve specific areas or connect a maximum of two transit centres.

    Think of it as airlines. Fast connections between major centres with smaller flights connecting from surrounding areas.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 21-01-2016 at 07:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolworm View Post
    Oh lordy, that's depressing. We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel if those are successes.
    What, besides the City owned parking lot would you say is wrong with Stadium?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    I'd really like to see some intersections get priority signals for buses.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    What besides the City owned parking lot would you say is wrong with Stadium?
    Have you seen the original plans for the Stadium area redevelopments? Those plans were three decades old AND less ambitious than the current TOD proposal, yet the reality on the ground falls a long way short. Insisting that it's been a succes only shows how low your standards are. If all you do is list metrics, then Clareview, Century Park, Mill Woods TC, Beldevere or Southgate were all successful TOD developments as well.

    Anyway, I think TOD is a separate topic. Bring on BRT and revamp the bus routes; here is a proposal from Planner_Hammish on r/Edmonton that I could get behind.
    Last edited by Foolworm; 22-01-2016 at 03:46 AM.

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    Less routes to the suburbs. More frequency on used routes!
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    Dude! You're a guy about town. You've seen the 8, 15, et al. right?

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    I think it would be great to connect some of these LRT lines with bus service
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Less routes to the suburbs. More frequency on used routes!
    Some of the routes in the suburbs are heavily used. But go on... Im sure you have a point?

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolworm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    What besides the City owned parking lot would you say is wrong with Stadium?
    Have you seen the original plans for the Stadium area redevelopments? Those plans were three decades old AND less ambitious than the current TOD proposal, yet the reality on the ground falls a long way short. Insisting that it's been a succes only shows how low your standards are. If all you do is list metrics, then Clareview, Century Park, Mill Woods TC, Beldevere or Southgate were all successful TOD developments as well.
    No, I haven't seen those plans. Do share.

    Clareview: denisty forced back from the station by City owned surface parking, retail not station oriented, community clinic and police station cutoff by 170 metre wide superhighway, post office not within 2 kilometres = failure, but salvageable by replacing the park'n'rides with tolerable bus service and developing something truly transit oriented. Of course there's that sacred parking cow staring at them if they do.

    Century Park: humungous stallage, caused by momentum shifting Downtown and certain issues I couldn't confirm = stalled. Route to success exists, but I'd say they should start building at the station, not opposite as they have been doing. Sacred cow? Or success.

    Millwoods TC? We are discussing "transit oriented development", right?

    Belvedere: seriously?

    Southgate: I suppose the mall expansion could be counted as a transit oriented success, but nothing else has really changed there with the LRT, and I think the mall expansion itself could have been done far better = neutral.

    -
    So, no, Stadium with organic medium density infill springing up to the Northwest in Parkdale, a far more pedestrian friendly retail experience than Clareview, plus higher density and better-yet-designed retail in Edgewater would be ahead, I'd say. (Note to strawmaniacs: didn't say "success" here either.)

    Depending on Brookfield making any progress, I'd say that's where it gets over the hump and we might finally call it success. Again I'd suggest developing nearest the station first. Thank cripes they're not allowed to allow parking - once it gets its foot in the door...
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    No, I haven't seen those plans. Do share.
    http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...t-library.aspx

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    ^ Thanks, but they exist, do they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ Thanks, but they exist, do they?
    Of course. Look for the Stadium Station Area Redevelopment Report (1981). There was a major revision circa 1995.

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    If Century Park is actually built out as suggested, it will be a good TOD. Stadium has potential for a good TOD, but still not there, same thing with Belvedere station. Belvedere could become a good TOD if anything actually get's built there. Southgate will never be a TOD unless a number of houses to the west of the station get levelled to be replaced with mixed use towers and also if Southgate actually get's their head out of their..... and lets the city build that pedway link from the LRT station into the mall itself. Mill Woods TC could become a good TOD, but a whole ton of new residential development and mixed use need to be built.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    I sometimes if the Transit-Oriented Developments would be better off with commercial development. Stadium and Clareview have housing, but mostly a few blocks away.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    The technology is already there to make ETS a much more efficient and a better experience for its users. ETS’s new strategy should implement things like real time bus information on all the routes in Edmonton on a more user friendly app. Free Wi-fi on the LRT would also be a nice feature.

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    ^Agree. Especially about expanding real time bus (ETS Live) information to more routes, including routes with less service frequency.

    Also ETS needs to better integrate ETS Live with the trip planner on its website. When you load the map for routes selected through trip planner, you should be able to see where the buses are along those routes.

    The ability to check where a bus is in real time (late, early or on time) before your leave your home or office will be a real game changer. No more waiting around at bus stops clueless as to when your bus will actually arrive, or arriving just after a bus that is early has already departed.
    Last edited by East McCauley; 28-01-2016 at 04:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Excellent. Just what we have been clamouring for here on bus service.

    And I note, LRT for trunks.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Looking at Houston's map, there seem to be a lot of north-south and east-west routes.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Some interesting stuff in here. One thing that gets me is that buses are supposed to be between 5 minutes early and 1 minute late. That's a rule that was clearly written by someone who doesn't ride the bus. It sounds nice in terms of getting the bus to it's destination on time, until you realize that it means being on time for your bus means that there's a good chance you'll miss it.

    http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...y-issues-.html

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    I often wonder how many people who make decisions in the Transit department ride the bus regularly -- both for commute and for living their off-work life.

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    How about the busses arrive on time and if they're early they wait at the stop until it is time.

    Of course that's last decades solution. This decade is to equip the busses with GPS that feed their current location to a server that can be queried by transit apps.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    GPS is really the best of all possible worlds. I don't even use schedules any more. Eventually it will be universal (or bus stop signs will be customized).

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Some interesting stuff in here. One thing that gets me is that buses are supposed to be between 5 minutes early and 1 minute late. That's a rule that was clearly written by someone who doesn't ride the bus. It sounds nice in terms of getting the bus to it's destination on time, until you realize that it means being on time for your bus means that there's a good chance you'll miss it.

    http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...y-issues-.html

    If that truly is the policy, it's really not intuitive and they should adjust it so the arrival window starts from the scheduled time until 5 minutes past. It's ludicrous to make your window start before the scheduled time. People are more concerned about not missing the bus than having the bus be "on time"

    But I think the auditor is just blowing smoke. I can't imagine a functional bus system where buses are aiming to arrive early.

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    Edmonton transit ready for bus route overhaul, suggests report http://ow.ly/ALLq306JsZb
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^ from the linked article:

    In the outer suburbs, express buses would focus on getting people directly to a destination quickly during peak hours.
    Please let "a destination" include LRT stations!

    But strongly looks like we're getting an ETS than goes for market share, and that's a very good thing for taxpayers, riders, and drivers alike.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    New ETS boss have left Halifax in a mess with the routes a year ago and now Halifax was forced to fix the mess.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...bate-1.3531617


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ties-1.3861242
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    ^that's not clear from your news articles at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    ^that's not clear from your news articles at all.

    I have a friend living in Halifax and she heard many people were complaining about bus routes in the area. most jobs refuse to hire anyone who use city bus.
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    As a daily transit rider, I do get a bit apprehensive about some of the strategic directions. Especially, when only 27% of those completing the survey even use transit as their primary way to get and from work, while 61% drive (page 11 of Attachment 3).

    The number 1 proposed strategic direction is to have more frequent service, even if longer walks are required. I don't know of any regular transit user who walks to a bus stop with no idea of when the next bus is scheduled to arrive. Now with real-time mapping tools like the Transit App or the ETS Real Time Map, a transit rider can time their arrival at a stop even closer to when they know their bus will arrive.

  64. #64
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    What's the problem with drivers responding to a transit survey? I know quite a few drivers who would opt for transit if it adequately met their needs.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  65. #65
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    Nothing wrong with drivers responding to the survey. Pointing out that drivers may not be as aware as regular riders of how to properly access the system, and especially of the new real-time mapping tools. Whether increased frequency is worthwhile will depend upon the trade-offs involved.

  66. #66

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    Will it involve changes?
    Yes.

    Will it be worse for some people?
    More than likely.

    Will it be better for a larger number of people? (Measured by how many use the service?)
    Yes, in every city the concept has been deployed, with every reason to believe it will here too.


    We went through this type of change with Horizon 2000. We'll get through this one, and I'm very optimistic that we start seeing market share improvement within five years.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  67. #67

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    'It's a dramatic shift': Edmonton releases complete rethink of its transit network

    The City of Edmonton released a draft plan for the largest reworking of its bus network in decades, promising to focus on service that is “safe, fast, convenient and reliable.”

    The new approach to transit will have a network of high-frequency routes in the core of the city with new crosstown routes and rapid-bus commuter routes for the suburbs.

    The plan calls for a high-frequency routes running every 15 minutes or better straight along major avenues: 118, 111, Stony Plain Road, 82, 51 and others. North-south connections run on the main streets: 50, 97, 124, 156 and others.

    The plan calls for about a dozen express routes running between the suburbs and downtown, for example, in the north along the streets 127, 97, 66 and Manning Drive.
    There’s a new cross-town service proposed to run every 20 to 30 minutes in a big loop around the inner ring road — 137 Avenue, 170 Street, Whitemud Drive and 50 Street, hitting the major transit centres. An extra section also cuts down to run across 23 Avenue.

    The routes still leave most homes within 400 metres of a stop, says the report. But it will involve more walking for many. In the northeast, for example, the community buses run in a straight grid to the LRT or transit centres, with an additional community bus running straight up and down 66 and 82 streets.


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...eased-thursday

  68. #68

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    'It's a dramatic shift': Edmonton releases complete rethink of its transit network

    The City of Edmonton released a draft plan for the largest reworking of its bus network in decades, promising to focus on service that is “safe, fast, convenient and reliable.”

    The new approach to transit will have a network of high-frequency routes in the core of the city with new crosstown routes and rapid-bus commuter routes for the suburbs.

    The plan calls for a high-frequency routes running every 15 minutes or better straight along major avenues: 118, 111, Stony Plain Road, 82, 51 and others. North-south connections run on the main streets: 50, 97, 124, 156 and others.

    The plan calls for about a dozen express routes running between the suburbs and downtown, for example, in the north along the streets 127, 97, 66 and Manning Drive.
    There’s a new cross-town service proposed to run every 20 to 30 minutes in a big loop around the inner ring road — 137 Avenue, 170 Street, Whitemud Drive and 50 Street, hitting the major transit centres. An extra section also cuts down to run across 23 Avenue.

    The routes still leave most homes within 400 metres of a stop, says the report. But it will involve more walking for many. In the northeast, for example, the community buses run in a straight grid to the LRT or transit centres, with an additional community bus running straight up and down 66 and 82 streets.


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...eased-thursday


    full report: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...itStrategy.pdf

  69. #69
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    I like the grid style of the routes, rather than the circles that many of the transit routes take.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  70. #70

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    North - South, with the existing LRT lines is a workable plan. BUT, any plan that does not have a express route from Abbottsfield Mall T/C to 178th street via Yellowhead, doe not follow the major north side East-West transportation route. On the South side there are two down 23rd ave and one incomplete, direct route on Whitemud. East-West needs a few extra straight express routes.

    IMHO, This is not even an effective grid without the missing elements
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 23-06-2017 at 06:41 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  71. #71

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    I'm confused as to whether Millwoods residents need to wait years until LRT operation to get a somewhat direct line to Bonnie Doon, DT etc.

    On the other hand somehow the city thinks a bus running down 50th street to Coliseum, Belvedere, and Beverly would be a big draw.. This being the same City that for some reason has the #8 milk run that went from Millwoods to DT then to Abbotsfield of all places.

    its kind of hard to get the logic of these routes. Its like random thought routes. Why on Earth would I want a bus route running down 50th street?

    The only time that would have much of any draw is K Days. lol that they do this route AFTER the Coliseum ceases to be a destination location.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  72. #72

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    It looks like a good plan. My biggest frustration taking the bus in Edmonton was having to stop at so many bus stops, often within easy walking distance of each other. If people have to walk or roll an extra 5 minutes to the bus stop, but get to their destination in half the time, I think that's a very good improvement.

  73. #73

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    Its improvement, and of some obvious things. For instance stop running dam milk run routes all over the city. Theres a bus from MWTC that has "Century Park'' on it yet this bus takes 45minutes to reach CP. For real. You can't make this **** up. As a Millwoods resident I'm expected to go all through Ellerslie, Summerside, and then through South Common before reaching CP. The route seems interminable and in rush hour takes longer. I think the route contains a dozen left hand turns. In a word its INSANE. An even bigger laugh. The correct bus to take, that gets you direct from MWTC to CP is actually labeled WEM...that's the one anybody should take to avoid being taken on a long detour. This is bus logic ETS style. Route headings should contain more than start stop if they are circle routes. They should have for instance Ellerslie/CP demarking them. Or exiting CP should say Ellerslie/MWTC. That at least gives immediate information and differentiates it as a milk run.

    For sloped foreheads to realize this kind of route doesn't make sense is not praise worthy. Its something a preschooler would immediate recognize and with "are we there yet"

    ftr I could walk from MWTC to CP in around 50mins. I would arrive around 5mins after the circuitous bus.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-06-2017 at 08:24 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  74. #74
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    Lots of verbiage to plow through before getting to the actual proposed network changes in the attachment at the end of the report.

    My confidence in the competence of those in charge of this exercise is shaken when there are obvious errors on the current network map on page 78. Hint to Administration: the venerable #5 has been running on 95 Street north of Jasper Avenue for as long as I've been alive, even though you failed to show it on the map.

    On the proposed network concept map on page 79, the #2 and #120 that currently run straight down Jasper Avenue are shown as having to jog up 95 Street to 102A Avenue instead for reasons unknown and not explained.

    The proposed network concept map for northeast Edmonton on page 81 shows all bus service eliminated from 132 Avenue between 66 and 97 Streets despite two big high schools (Queen Elizabeth and O'Leary) being located on this avenue. 132 Avenue is also a safer more transit friendly street than 137 Avenue which is proposed to be upgraded to a crosstown route.

  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Its improvement, and of some obvious things. For instance stop running dam milk run routes all over the city. Theres a bus from MWTC that has "Century Park'' on it yet this bus takes 45minutes to reach CP. For real. You can't make this **** up. As a Millwoods resident I'm expected to go all through Ellerslie, Summerside, and then through South Common before reaching CP. The route seems interminable and in rush hour takes longer. I think the route contains a dozen left hand turns. In a word its INSANE. An even bigger laugh. The correct bus to take, that gets you direct from MWTC to CP is actually labeled WEM...that's the one anybody should take to avoid being taken on a long detour. This is bus logic ETS style. Route headings should contain more than start stop if they are circle routes. They should have for instance Ellerslie/CP demarking them. Or exiting CP should say Ellerslie/MWTC. That at least gives immediate information and differentiates it as a milk run.

    For sloped foreheads to realize this kind of route doesn't make sense is not praise worthy. Its something a preschooler would immediate recognize and with "are we there yet"

    ftr I could walk from MWTC to CP in around 50mins. I would arrive around 5mins after the circuitous bus.
    I think your idea about the route headings is a good point. I don't know what the best descriptions would be, but perhaps something like "direct" or "via neighbourhood route" might also help people understand which routes are faster.

    I think the big problem they are going to have with the new system is that some people who use transit have mobility issues, like some seniors. Walking a few extra blocks to a main road is not a problem for some, but for others it is. I think there will be a big negative reaction to the reduction in neighbourhood routes.

    I live close to a main road, so I think these changes will not affect me. My biggest beef is when two or three buses go in a "convoy". If you miss one you often miss them all and buses two or three are often fairly empty. It would be better to space them out a bit more (like say by 5 min). It would increase the frequency of service without adding any buses.

    I think the current system is predicated too much on having a common arrival time at the transit centre for transfers, but often that does not work well anyways if anything is delayed (ex. due to weather conditions, road construction or accidents).

  76. #76
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    Ellerslie road doesn't qualify for a cross-town route in this master map.

    I better get into the report and hope Ellerslie Road gets something.

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    I hope that the Transit Union doesn't fight this.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I hope that the Transit Union doesn't fight this.
    Given that there's multiple references to the privatization of parts of the public transit system I can state with almost complete certainty they'll not be overly fond of the proposal.

    http://www.progressalberta.ca/keep_p...transit_public

    What’s on the table here is a second, privatized transit system for low ridership areas. This system would do an end-run around the public nature of our public transit system. What's being proposed here is an existential danger to public transit as a concept across North America. Public taxpayer money, to private transportation companies, for privatized transit services.
    Uber and other ridesharing companies have made these sorts of arrangements in small towns and cities like Innisfil, Ontario and Altamonte Springs, Florida but this would be the first time anything like this has come to city as big as Edmonton.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  80. #80

  81. #81
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    The crosstown route will allow me to get to work in the west end without any transfers, it's going to have at least 15 minute service, and presumably run into later hours of the evening too (unlike the current 137). Definitely a route that will get this Edmontonian out of his car.

    The links posted earlier to the Transit Strategy document are now dead, anyone know where I can read it?

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