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Thread: NDP Adopt LEAP Manifesto

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    Default NDP Adopt LEAP Manifesto


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    "...she [Notley]also pleaded with NDPers outside of Alberta to understand that thousands of families in her province depend on natural resources for their living, and need a pipeline and support for the oil and gas sector to maintain their quality of life ó even while working to improve the environment."

    so, if those things were said by notley in good conscience, would that not now require her to resign from a clearly diametrically opposed federal party?

    or is she prepared to simply surrender alberta to the tyranny of a majority of a minority? which would raise calls for a different, although i am sure nonforthcoming, resignation.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    All Alberta delegates should have walked out immediately. The Alberta NDP needs to formally sever ties with the federal party over this. Anything less is a complete betrayal of the province that elected them.

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    Members of the NDP have voted 52 per cent in favour of a federal leadership review, meaning Tom Mulcair doesn’t have the support to remain at the helm of the party.
    Delegates at the party’s convention in Edmonton cast their ballots today as a festering dispute over the NDP’s future direction in the wake of last year’s devastating election loss finally came to a head.
    Delegates were voting on whether or not to hold a leadership review; party president Rebecca Blaikie had already established 70 per cent support as an arbitrary — and non-binding — threshold.
    The vote comes less than six months after the party was badly outflanked by the Liberals in last October’s federal election and reduced to third-place status in the House of Commons.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ing-in-balance

    Looks like Mulcair is a few pipes short of a pipeline in his speech this afternoon. Instead of rallying his dippers it looks like they are going to have another leadership review. HaHa.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Re-arrange the deck chairs.

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    The Federal NDP would appear to be eager to return to the electoral backwoods. Unfortunate, but that's their call I guess.

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    Nit: They did not adopt the LEAP Manifesto. They passed a resolution to include it in future discussions about the direction of the party. So it is not part of party policy...yet.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    /\ Fair enough, they call it "a high-level statement of principles that speaks to the aspirations, history and values of the party."
    This leaves them the opening to BS about what they mean.

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    I liked Jeans Twitter "Notley fails to get social license for pipelines from her own party".

    I hate that term social license, because it seems to really mean, veto power for any left wing group that doesn't like something.

    In fairness, this isn't Notleys fault. It's really Trudeaus, he ran on a big government left wing big spending platform. Mulcair misjudged and ran on a more centrist one, and it failed. This takes the Federal NDP back to its looney left roots.
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-04-2016 at 06:14 PM.

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    I will never vote for the NDP if they pass this leap manifesto or anything similar to it.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    LEAP.....leap off a cliff I'd say

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    ^oh, but Leap is a jobs plan. There will be new jobs in health, education, daycare, social work, arts and public interest media... All paid for by reducing our defense spending (which is already pitiful), and raising corporate taxes.

    I'm not making this up, wonder if this guy, Avi Lewis, will be the new NDP leader?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/04...n_9637944.html

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    Will they be legislating oil and coal to stay in the ground, then import for our needs?

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    ^i think the idea is we will all use public transit and bicycles.

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    Maybe go back to ox cart for freight

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    Default Wave them goodbye Rachel

    NDP doesn't stand for economic and social justice anymore:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...on-as-possible

    Rather, they stand for shutting down much of Canada's economy, from oil sands, to mining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^oh, but Leap is a jobs plan. There will be new jobs in health, education, daycare, social work, arts and public interest media... All paid for by reducing our defense spending (which is already pitiful), and raising corporate taxes.

    I'm not making this up, wonder if this guy, Avi Lewis, will be the new NDP leader?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/04...n_9637944.html
    he is stephen lewis's son... so from that perspective he would only be following rachel's example. and justin's. and bill bennett's. and george bush's. to name only a few from what is a very long list.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    NDP doesn't stand for economic and social justice anymore:

    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...on-as-possible

    Rather, they stand for shutting down much of Canada's economy, from oil sands, to mining.
    Ding! Nailed it!

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    Notley's powerful speech from the day before:

    https://youtu.be/F8m1U3Y8Jog

    Guess even that wouldn't convince some of the delegates.

    The ndp seems to be splitting into two camps. The radical anti capitalists who value ideological purity and the prairie pragmatists who want to govern. There are some interesting parallels between this and the PC/ wild Rose split. Or before that the PC - Canadian Alliance split.

    I think for a number of years we haven't had much of a strong political voice on the left in Canada. Certainly not what we have had on the right. But Canada has always had a left leaning element. With the Liberals now positioning themselves as quite progressive, the NDP members will naturally want to go further. Even LEAP, for some of them, doesn't go nearly far enough.

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    They are placing their faith in renewable resources without any environmental qualifier. Renewable-resources can be extremely destructive to the environment. ( eg. Hydro via standard dams totally destroys environment above the dam and dramatically alters it for hundreds of km below the dam. ). As such, I don't think they are really that concerned about the whole environment. More that they are on the anti-global warming bandwagon.


    What is in the Leap Manifesto? - Macleans.ca


    Here’s what the manifesto calls for:...

    http://www.macleans.ca/politics/otta...eap-manifesto/


    The good thing about this is that Alberta should be able to demand that we will be the renewable energy producer for much of Canada and all the transition investment should flow into Alberta. We'll build huge transmission lines to Ontario, etc. to power those provinces.




    Not good for other minerals and resources like potash, lithium, etc :




    No new infrastructure projects aimed at increasing extraction of non-renewable resources, including pipelines.



    Last edited by KC; 11-04-2016 at 08:22 AM.

  21. #21

    Default NDP Adopt LEAP Manifesto

    The Federal NDP is getting themselves into very dangerous waters here. It is a leap of faith, but it may also be a leap off a cliff for them and a further retreat into third party irrelevance.

    I don't know if they realize it yet, but the NDP is putting much of their support in the west at serious risk if they go further in this direction. This will not go over well in Alberta or Saskatchewan and in the last provincial election the NDP lost in BC because voters sensed the party would put environmental concerns ahead of the economy.

    I suspect some other parties are watching this with glee.

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    ^I think so as well, but there is a market for that sort of stuff. There's a large segment of population today who have never lived in a poor economy, and don't know where the things we all rely on come from day to day. Leap reads like a joke, I mean, how are jobs that we have to subsidize pay for (like health, social work, arts), going to grow, without new sources of revenue to pay for them? How will people like it when we pull out of trade deals, and can't afford to buy televisions and cell phones anymore? But they don't think like that, its all dreaming that we can all be driving Tesla tomorrow, that there is a grand conspiracy keeping this cool "clean" stuff from us, even though something like Tesla is totally capitalist / not communist in how it has been developed.

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    What a classic NDP abortion.

    At first it was like watching a highly trained police negotiator urging a suicidal shithead to put down the gun.

    And Top_Dawg was hoping for the best.

    But after a while Top_Dawg was shouting ' just pull the ****** trigger and blow your ****** brains out you bunch of drama queens ' .



    What a pathetic collection of brain dead morons.

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    I get where this manifesto comes from: it is both an ethical and practical imperative to transition off of fossil-fuel reliance as quickly as possible for the ongoing survival of the human species.

    However, it shows an astounding lack of foresight in itself. As others have said, this will not in any way transition us off of fossil fuels, it will simply mean that we import the resources from elsewhere.

    If the NDP want to adopt a radical strategy to "green" Canada, they should call for a massive re-construction of our urban environments into dense and sustainable built form, and direct investments that help to reduce the demand for fossil fuels rather than the supply. They wouldn't even have to focus such a strategy on fossil fuels. They could just label it the "rebuilding Canada plan" or some other political buzzword, and claim it is designed to transition our economy into the 21st century and beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^oh, but Leap is a jobs plan. There will be new jobs in health, education, daycare, social work, arts and public interest media... All paid for by reducing our defense spending (which is already pitiful), and raising corporate taxes.

    I'm not making this up, wonder if this guy, Avi Lewis, will be the new NDP leader?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/04...n_9637944.html
    he is stephen lewis's son... so from that perspective he would only be following rachel's example. and justin's. and bill bennett's. and george bush's. to name only a few from what is a very long list.
    His grandfather, David Lewis, was also the federal leader of the NDP in the 70s.

    If the federal NDP are going to swing to the hard left youth and adopt the LEAP Manifesto then it's very possible Avi Lewis, co-author of the manifesto, could become leader.

    Interesting times for the NDP to say the least.

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    That was no vote, it was an anno(y)inting. Nobody bothered to count the show of hands. It's the second time I observe such a thing with NDP.
    I am becoming convinced that it is nigh impossible to have social-democracy among the proverbial 'drawers of water and hewers of wood'.
    Last edited by Safir; 11-04-2016 at 11:21 AM.

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    I agree with those putting part of the blame on how Liberals occupied the left of political center, and given a lack of vision, Mulcair has shifted to territory previously owned by the Rhino party and so on. They really need to get their acts together with a vision and fight back for center not far left to be relevant.

    On the Leap Manifesto, I have yet to read it and my understanding is based on media coverage. But I have read the book "This Changes Everyhting", by Namoi Klien, which according to Leap Manifesto website is amongst the "Initiating Signatories" alongside Avi Lewis. I can see the thesis of this book (that capitalism inherently conflicts with environment) has had a strong influence on the manifesto. While some of the documented criticism in that book is justified (it was a NYT bestseller for a few months), it lacks what several posters above point out. They know what they dislike, but have no practical plan to achieve what they like.

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    The UK has Corbyn, the US has Sanders, we'll get our equivalent it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I agree with those putting part of the blame on how Liberals occupied the left of political center, and given a lack of vision, Mulcair has shifted to territory previously owned by the Rhino party and so on. They really need to get their acts together with a vision and fight back for center not far left to be relevant.

    On the Leap Manifesto, I have yet to read it and my understanding is based on media coverage. But I have read the book "This Changes Everyhting", by Namoi Klien, which according to Leap Manifesto website is amongst the "Initiating Signatories" alongside Avi Lewis. I can see the thesis of this book (that capitalism inherently conflicts with environment) has had a strong influence on the manifesto. While some of the documented criticism in that book is justified (it was a NYT bestseller for a few months), it lacks what several posters above point out. They know what they dislike, but have no practical plan to achieve what they like.
    it's not surprising naomi and avi stand alongside each other, they're married to each other.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    That was no vote, it was an anno(y)inting. Nobody bothered to count the show of hands. It's the second time I observe such a thing with NDP.
    I am becoming convinced that it is nigh impossible to have social-democracy among the proverbial 'drawers of water and hewers of wood'.
    At large conventions like these a visible majority is enough to pass a resolution. If the vote is close then a standing count can be done.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    ^^

    Match made in eco-nut heaven.

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    I don't know if you could call Naomi Klein an "eco-nut", Dawg. Her work is very well thought out. Listening to a few lectures she held gave a really good insight into why climate-change denialism is so rampant among otherwise intelligent people in business/politics. Very interesting theory on the politics behind it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    I agree with those putting part of the blame on how Liberals occupied the left of political center, and given a lack of vision, Mulcair has shifted to territory previously owned by the Rhino party and so on. They really need to get their acts together with a vision and fight back for center not far left to be relevant.

    On the Leap Manifesto, I have yet to read it and my understanding is based on media coverage. But I have read the book "This Changes Everyhting", by Namoi Klien, which according to Leap Manifesto website is amongst the "Initiating Signatories" alongside Avi Lewis. I can see the thesis of this book (that capitalism inherently conflicts with environment) has had a strong influence on the manifesto. While some of the documented criticism in that book is justified (it was a NYT bestseller for a few months), it lacks what several posters above point out. They know what they dislike, but have no practical plan to achieve what they like.
    it's not surprising naomi and avi stand alongside each other, they're married to each other.
    Didn't know that. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    ^^

    Match made in eco-nut heaven.
    You have that right, what planet do they live on.It's not going to happen, even the provincial NDP think so..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    The Federal NDP is getting themselves into very dangerous waters here. It is a leap of faith, but it may also be a leap off a cliff for them and a further retreat into third party irrelevance.

    I don't know if they realize it yet, but the NDP is putting much of their support in the west at serious risk if they go further in this direction. This will not go over well in Alberta or Saskatchewan and in the last provincial election the NDP lost in BC because voters sensed the party would put environmental concerns ahead of the economy.

    I suspect some other parties are watching this with glee.
    You bet they are watching with glee.

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    Graham Thomson argues that the federal party has harmed the Alberta NDP's political prospects by adopting the LEAP manifesto.

    Thing is, if Notley wanted to throw party solidarity to the wind, she could probably re-assure Alberta voters, quite truthfully, that the federal NDP doesn't have a hope in hell of ever coming to power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Graham Thomson argues that the federal party has harmed the Alberta NDP's political prospects by adopting the LEAP manifesto.

    Thing is, if Notley wanted to throw party solidarity to the wind, she could probably re-assure Alberta voters, quite truthfully, that the federal NDP doesn't have a hope in hell of ever coming to power.
    except it's deeper than that unless the provincial party and the provincial party members including the premier are prepared to divorce themselves form the federal party.

    even if they are never going to come to power federally, they will still be committed to something that is detrimental to the long-term best interests - including environmentally - of alberta and of canada.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Graham Thomson argues that the federal party has harmed the Alberta NDP's political prospects by adopting the LEAP manifesto.

    Thing is, if Notley wanted to throw party solidarity to the wind, she could probably re-assure Alberta voters, quite truthfully, that the federal NDP doesn't have a hope in hell of ever coming to power.
    except it's deeper than that unless the provincial party and the provincial party members including the premier are prepared to divorce themselves form the federal party.

    even if they are never going to come to power federally, they will still be committed to something that is detrimental to the long-term best interests - including environmentally - of alberta and of canada.
    Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm not actually advocating that Rachel Notley openly mock the prospects of the federal NDP.

    I'm just kinda pointing out that the question of whether or not the LEAP Manifesto will damage the Alberta economy is entirely academic, since it will never come anywhere near to being implemented.

  39. #39

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    The NDP's strength has always been at its provincial levels, not federal. They have never held power federally, but NDP provincial governments are elected with regularity across the country. The national NDP needs the Alberta NDP more than the reverse. Notley and co. should just ditch them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I don't know if you could call Naomi Klein an "eco-nut", Dawg. Her work is very well thought out. Listening to a few lectures she held gave a really good insight into why climate-change denialism is so rampant among otherwise intelligent people in business/politics. Very interesting theory on the politics behind it all.
    What is being denied is that 'progress' can be made in fixing the climate. Progressives love their pies in the sky "science fixes everything", "we will build the unsinkable ship" etc etc.

    The truth is somewhat different.

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    ^ I'm not entirely sure what to make of your link. A bizarre rant about a grand conspiracy to ruin our lives with... science measuring obesity harm? Very strange selection, Safir. Along with denying that abatement is possible, and pretending that adaptation isn't necessary? Very out of character.


    Back to the topic at hand, Notley has made a response:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nger-1.3529980

    Leap Manifesto: Alberta NDP 'had nothing to do with this nonsense'

    'These downtown Toronto political dilettantes come to Alberta and track their garbage across our front lawn'

    "They didn't give any thought to the political problems they're creating for NDP in Alberta," he said. "They didn't give any credit for the work the Alberta government been doing on climate change … the best climate change policies in the country, bar none."

    ...

    After the motion, some Alberta NDP delegates were so upset that they began to openly discuss splitting from the federal party, McGowan said.

    "Members started coming to me to say, 'We have to write a resolution to our provincial convention to split from the federal party.'

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    The point was half the science produced these days is most likely bunk. If that's Naomi's starting point and her hubby takes over a federal party via the nincompoops of the Kiehlburger "generation We" it would be a disaster for social democracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by River Valley Green View Post
    The NDP's strength has always been at its provincial levels, not federal. They have never held power federally, but NDP provincial governments are elected with regularity across the country. The national NDP needs the Alberta NDP more than the reverse. Notley and co. should just ditch them.
    Well, the NDP holds a grand total of 9 seats across the 4 Atlantic Provinces, they don't exist in Quebec, they're the third party in Ontario, they were just soundly defeated in Saskatchewan for the third straight election (including the leader failing to win his seat) and are facing all but certain defeat in Manitoba next week. If their strength is at the provincial level, then it's really not looking good.

    I think Premier Notley should run for the federal leadership and save these people from themselves. Maybe teach them a thing or two about winning.

  44. #44

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    ^That's not Notley, but it makes a lot of sense. I don't support the left, but at least McGowan cares about our province and its workers (I think Notley does as well):

    "It breaks my heart," McGowan said. "We finally elect a progressive government in Alberta and these people are not giving them room to govern."

    But it was on a personal level he felt most betrayed, he said.

    As a labour leader, the manifesto's disregard for working people annoyed McGowan the most.

    "It makes them feel good to say that we have to deal with climate change and shut down the fossil fuel industry, but they ignore what they say has real implications for real people."
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nger-1.3529980

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^That's not Notley, but it makes a lot of sense. I don't support the left, but at least McGowan cares about our province and its workers (I think Notley does as well):

    "It breaks my heart," McGowan said. "We finally elect a progressive government in Alberta and these people are not giving them room to govern."

    But it was on a personal level he felt most betrayed, he said.

    As a labour leader, the manifesto's disregard for working people annoyed McGowan the most.

    "It makes them feel good to say that we have to deal with climate change and shut down the fossil fuel industry, but they ignore what they say has real implications for real people."
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...nger-1.3529980
    Notleys had to take a giant leap against this, it would be political suicide if she didn't. Not that I think she will be voted in again..

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    The same group that voted Mulcair out, have voted the Manifesto in. So I don't think anyone can bridge that gap in federal NDP, between pragmatism (Alberta NDP's pitch at the convention or Mulcair's trying to move to center-left politically during election) vs. idealism (the Leap). IMO they will remain gridlocked until they break up. And that's a pity, as Safir pointed out, a good democracy benefits from diversity of constructive opinion.

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    Thought I'd share this:

    Premier Notley Must Go

    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Thought I'd share this:

    Premier Notley Must Go

    Every country has carbon sinks. Without carbon sinks we'd be fried by now. Just a reminder that people are concerned about output of emissions here, and that is the same for all countries.

    As an aside let's try to keep this thread on topic: it is not the general provincial politics thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    The point was half the science produced these days is most likely bunk.
    Source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The same group that voted Mulcair out, have voted the Manifesto in. So I don't think anyone can bridge that gap in federal NDP, between pragmatism (Alberta NDP's pitch at the convention or Mulcair's trying to move to center-left politically during election) vs. idealism (the Leap). IMO they will remain gridlocked until they break up. And that's a pity, as Safir pointed out, a good democracy benefits from diversity of constructive opinion.
    It's very odd nobody wants to even put their name forward to lead this party. Very little interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    The point was half the science produced these days is most likely bunk.
    Source?
    You're better off listening to gramps
    With psychology papers replicating less than 40%, dietary advice reversing after 30y of fatphobia, macroeconomic analysis working worse than astrology, microeconomic papers wrong 40% of the time, the appointment of Bernanke who was less than clueless of the risks, and pharmaceutical trials replicating only 1/5th of the time, people are perfectly entitled to rely on their own ancestral instinct and listen to their grandmothers with a better track record than these policymaking goons.

    Taleb-he of the Black Swan fame

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    So you highlighted two areas (psychology and economics) which are notoriously "soft" sciences and always have been. The comment about "fatphobia" has zero context and can be ignored. What about the rest of science research?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The same group that voted Mulcair out, have voted the Manifesto in. So I don't think anyone can bridge that gap in federal NDP, between pragmatism (Alberta NDP's pitch at the convention or Mulcair's trying to move to center-left politically during election) vs. idealism (the Leap). IMO they will remain gridlocked until they break up. And that's a pity, as Safir pointed out, a good democracy benefits from diversity of constructive opinion.
    It's very odd nobody wants to even put their name forward to lead this party. Very little interest.
    Yup. And that's why they extended the leadership transition to two years. Normally, a no-confidence vote means you have to resign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    So you highlighted two areas (psychology and economics) which are notoriously "soft" sciences and always have been. The comment about "fatphobia" has zero context and can be ignored. What about the rest of science research?
    The entire thing should be ignored. The "fact" was fabricated out of thin air, and his source is some bizarre conspiracy nut ranting.

    Somehow even worse than the absurdly simplistic understanding of carbon sinks vs. emissions floating around here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    What about the rest of science research?
    Best left to the specialists. However I am confident what we have these days is a deluge of data rather than information. The Klein/Lewis duo preys on folks confusing these two, and frankly their ultimate goal is not 'science based policy', but to kill our current method of organizing production. This is fine by me but no bogey man please. Nobody has ever developed that 'global consciousness' sitting on an Island like ours.

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    Have you read any of Klein's work? What "confusion" between data and information are you specifically referring to? Klein writes on political economy issues. Which of those issues are you targeting here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Thought I'd share this:

    ...
    The math doesn't include all the natural sources of carbon emissions in Canada. Vegetation consumed by animals and bacteria (rotting) release about as much carbon as growing vegetation consumes. Natural carbon sinks predate the industrial age are part of the natural carbon cycle that maintained carbon levels at fairly stable levels. Human emissions are on top of that.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    The same group that voted Mulcair out, have voted the Manifesto in. So I don't think anyone can bridge that gap in federal NDP, between pragmatism (Alberta NDP's pitch at the convention or Mulcair's trying to move to center-left politically during election) vs. idealism (the Leap). IMO they will remain gridlocked until they break up. And that's a pity, as Safir pointed out, a good democracy benefits from diversity of constructive opinion.
    It's very odd nobody wants to even put their name forward to lead this party. Very little interest.
    Yup. And that's why they extended the leadership transition to two years. Normally, a no-confidence vote means you have to resign.
    I didn't know that. I just have a feeling, this party is so divided that it's going to take a different sort of person to lead this party. At least TM knew the leap manifesto was way out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    At least TM knew the leap manifesto was way out there.
    Bizarrely though, he said he would implement it if he retained leadership. I think he lost credibility with all wings of the NDP party when he said that, because we all saw last election he took the NDP more central, not more left.

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    ^ So to sum it up, what NDP achieved last weekend in Edmonton was to leap, so to speak, but not landing on the other side. They are not here, nor there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    What "confusion" between data and information are you specifically referring to?
    The one implied in the position paper below. Note that they focus on risk rather than accuracy of the present models (which I maintain are still most likely bunk). These models are completely irrelevant.

    So, while Klein's work centers around the risks, her acolytes present it as fact because to this demographics feelings are facts too.

    There's just data at this point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir
    her acolytes present it as fact because to this demographics feelings are facts too
    This quote is exceedingly ironic coming from someone who claimed that "half the science produced these days is most likely bunk" with absolutely zero basis or citation.

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    Then, what percent of science isn't bunk? Seems that we need some scientific data.



    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ology-researcH
    Last edited by KC; 11-04-2016 at 05:58 PM.

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    It will be interesting how this will play out. The NDP Constitution states: " Each province of Canada shall have a fully autonomous provincial Party, provided its constitution and principles are not in conflict with those of the Federal Party." Article xii 1. http://xfer.ndp.ca/2013/constitution...TITUTION_E.pdf
    The convention resolution called the manifesto "a high-level statement of principles..."
    http://edmontonjournal.com/.../federal-ndp-vote-to...
    So according to the NDP, the provinces have to accept the principles of the party and according to the resolution, the manifesto is a high level priciple.

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    While I don't personally believe the LEAP Manifesto is the correct course, I'm happy we have enough depth within our political spectrum to allow for it to be included in the conversation. There's no such thing as healthy debate when everyone is saying the same thing.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Speed kills.

    "Despite promises not to do so, the government insists on going faster than other countries in emissions reduction."

    Not only do the plants move, but resources are used up in China in just building the new capacity that was lost somewhere else.





    COSTS ARE KILLING HEAVY INDUSTRY IN BRITAIN
    Home >Blog > Green policies and the steel industry
    Published on: Monday, 04 April, 2016


    Unilateral policies export jobs and emissions
    My Times column on the role of UK emissions policies in driving aluminium, steel and other industries abroad:



    Before Redcar and Port Talbot, remember Lynemouth, where Britain’s last large aluminium smelter closed in 2012. In aluminium, as in steel, China is now by far the largest producer, smelting five times as much as any other continent, let alone country. The chief reason aluminium left (though a small plant survives at Lochaber) was the sky-high electricity prices paid in Britain: electrolysis is how you make aluminium. For extra-large industrial users, British electricity prices are the highest in Europe, twice the average, and far higher than in Asia and America.

    Britain has the highest electricity prices because it has the most draconian climate policies. Despite promises not to do so, the government insists on going faster than other countries in emissions reduction. As Lord Deben, chairman of the Committee on Climate Change, put it recently, apparently without intended irony, the British approach to climate legislation is the envy of most countries in the world. At green conferences maybe.


    ..."

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog...teel-industry/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    What "confusion" between data and information are you specifically referring to?
    The one implied in the position paper below. Note that they focus on risk rather than accuracy of the present models (which I maintain are still most likely bunk). These models are completely irrelevant.

    So, while Klein's work centers around the risks, her acolytes present it as fact because to this demographics feelings are facts too.

    There's just data at this point.

    1) That article does not counter Klein's arguments, it simply takes a different approach to arguing for the exact same action she advocates. Klein argues using models (because she utilizes a political strategy to counter denialists who claim the science does not support anthropogenic climate change). The article you linked cites a different model based around pragmatic risk avoidance in situations of uncertainty. They are arguing to a completely different audience. Go read some scientific papers that you claim have "irrelevant" findings, and tell me what kind of language you find in them.

    2) The models are not bunk. That is a lie.

    3) The risk model of thinking relies on data to make an argument.

    Your argument here makes absolutely no sense. I am really struggling to understand how you came about such a disjointed opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post

    1) Klein argues using models ...The article you linked cites a different model based around pragmatic risk avoidance in situations of uncertainty.

    2) The models are not bunk. That is a lie.

    3) The risk model of thinking relies on data to make an argument.

    Your argument here makes absolutely no sense. I am really struggling to understand how you came about such a disjointed opinion.
    1)Klein argues using models? Which models she be using?

    2) I didn't say 'models are bunk'. I said considering half of what passes for science produced these days is bunk, them models have a high probability of being bunk. Note these 'mathheads' are not touching the subject with a 10 ft pole.

    3) The 'risk model of thinking' relies on ZERO DATA. It was clear from the position paper that they are trying to answer "What's the correct policy in the absence of models".
    Last edited by Safir; 12-04-2016 at 12:51 PM.

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    I think this will spur on the PM. He will have to go full speed ahead now on energy east!.

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    Who in the world with a clear mind would refer to something as a "Manifesto"...??? Maybe I'm unique, but all I hear is "All for Mother Russia!!". The NDP comrades really are something else. Since when have the days passed where it was an embarrassment to be labelled as 'Communist'?

    The model doesn't work... is this something that we really need to re-hash? Like, really??
    EDACC-EAD-YEGDT FTW!

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    Well, the first thing I think of is manifest destiny, which was imperialistic, not communistic.

    Also, it's not in the list here, so I guess it's not notable yet.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Thought I'd share this:

    ...
    The math doesn't include all the natural sources of carbon emissions in Canada. Vegetation consumed by animals and bacteria (rotting) release about as much carbon as growing vegetation consumes. Natural carbon sinks predate the industrial age are part of the natural carbon cycle that maintained carbon levels at fairly stable levels. Human emissions are on top of that.
    But Canada and lands of the the former Soviet Union do as well.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    man∑i∑fes∑to
    ˌmanəˈfestō/
    noun
    noun: manifesto; plural noun: manifestos

    1. a public declaration of policy and aims, especially one issued before an election by a political party or candidate. synonyms: policy statement, (little) red book, "a party manifesto that would change the course of world politics" https://www.google.ca/search?sourcei...ifesto+meaning The federal NDP want to change the course of world politics. Geez, they can't even organize a one man parade.
    Last edited by Gemini; 13-04-2016 at 10:49 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    When I hear the words "Leap Manifesto", I feel like breaking into a Spanish classical dance. I don't know why?
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingCalvin View Post
    Who in the world with a clear mind would refer to something as a "Manifesto"...??? Maybe I'm unique, but all I hear is "All for Mother Russia!!". The NDP comrades really are something else. Since when have the days passed where it was an embarrassment to be labelled as 'Communist'?

    The model doesn't work... is this something that we really need to re-hash? Like, really??
    No kidding. When I heard about it I immediately wondered who the Brainiac was that thought it was a good idea for the NDP to adopt any kind of "Manifesto". I don't even have to go past the name to know it's a stupid idea.

    Are they trying to gain ground by stealing it away from the Communist Party?

    There aren't many words more loaded, for the NDP, than "Manifesto". Really dumb, and the significance seems lost on so many in that party. Self inflicted mortal wound.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Now that the NDP are more Left of TM Centre, words like Manifesto fit right into their vocabulary.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Credit rating is down again. Sigh.

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    ^ AA isn't too bad. RN said this is typical from almost every oil producer nation in the world. It is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Credit rating is down again. Sigh.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that another credit rating has been downgraded.

    In December, Standard and Poor's lowered their rating for Alberta from AAA to AA+.

    In April, DBRS lowered their rating for Alberta from AAA to AA.

    I'm not sure if DBRS' AA is regarded as lower than S & P's AA+.
    Last edited by overoceans; 16-04-2016 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ AA isn't too bad. RN said this is typical from almost every oil producer nation in the world. It is?
    For some of them, anyway...

    Rising concerns over the fiscal and economic health of petrostates has led Standard & Poorís to slash the credit ratings of a slew of oil exporting countries, including a two-point drop for Saudi Arabia.

    The credit rating agency also pushed down Bahrainís credit level citing the slide in oil prices, now into its 20 month, and further lowered the ratings for Brazil, Kazakhstan and Oman.
    link

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    In the Metro there was an article saying a good % of Albertan's blame the NDP for the state of the economy. Did anyone else read it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by overoceans View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Credit rating is down again. Sigh.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that another credit rating has been downgraded.

    In December, Standard and Poor's lowered their rating for Alberta from AAA to AA+.

    In April, DBRS lowered their rating for Alberta from AAA to AA.

    I'm not sure if DBRS' AA is regarded as lower than S & P's AA+.
    All I know its lowered and she doesn't seem to care. Roll on 2019

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    A lot of damage can be done in the meantime
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Cheap petrochemical feedstocks...


    Federal NDP Radicals’ Leap into Irrelevance Masks Alberta Government’s Latest Petchem Success

    Alberta Oil Magazine

    The Leap Manifesto, which proposes Canada immediately start abandoning fossil fuels and stop building new pipelines, is unlikely to have any major impact on the oil industry’s relationship with the provincial government of Rachel Notley. It is only a discussion document, which she immediately denounced as “naive,” “ill-informed” and “tone-deaf.”

    Of far greater relevance is that during the brouhaha, Pembina Pipeline announced it is partnering with Kuwait Petroleum in a feasibility study to build petrochemical and plastics plants in Alberta’s Industrial Heartland, northeast of Edmonton. They are looking at a site near Pembina’s natural gas liquids fractionation plant.

    The proposed propane cracker would take 35,000 barrels per day of propane from Alberta’s glutted market, and remove its hydrogen to process it into 800,000 tons per year of polypropylene to make plastic pellets for export to the U.S. and Eastern Canada. Currently such plastic is imported from the U.S. by Ontario and Quebec manufacturers.
    ...

    The announcement follows hard on the heels of Chinese interest in petrochemical investment, whetted..



    http://www.albertaoilmagazine.com/20...tchem-success/


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    I'm thinking this leap manifesto is just another way get the environmentalist vote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm thinking this leap manifesto is just another way get the environmentalist vote.
    Which I think is pretty close to non-existent, apart from the odd bit of NIMBYism here and there.

    Contrary to the image of him as a wild-eyed left-wing eco-freak, Justin Trudeau campaigned on a PRO-PIPELINE platform in 2015. Didn't seem to do him any harm in the election.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    A lot of damage can be done in the meantime
    Yes, it can...

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    All we know is what the headline says. I think we're jumping the gun a bit too soon. The only thing I could see right now is a potential shift of wind in the Canadian politics similar to the former twin Tories. Judging by Notley's facial reaction this morning on the "West Bloc" program this morning, she wants nothing to do with the manifest. Who says all delegates from the NDP party is in favor of this anyways? It would be interesting and plausible that NDP west may split from the east faction. Notley wouldn't be stupid enough to go along with this.

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    West NDP wouldn't but most of the NDP "fan base" is East. I get the feeling that West NDP is just slightly left of Centre. I'm not a fan of Notley or the NDP and this Manifesto gimmick is just that, a gimmick. During TM leadership bid when proponents of Leap, handed out flyers, some delegates thought it was crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I think so as well, but there is a market for that sort of stuff. There's a large segment of population today who have never lived in a poor economy, and don't know where the things we all rely on come from day to day. Leap reads like a joke, I mean, how are jobs that we have to subsidize pay for (like health, social work, arts), going to grow, without new sources of revenue to pay for them? How will people like it when we pull out of trade deals, and can't afford to buy televisions and cell phones anymore? But they don't think like that, its all dreaming that we can all be driving Tesla tomorrow, that there is a grand conspiracy keeping this cool "clean" stuff from us, even though something like Tesla is totally capitalist / not communist in how it has been developed.
    Moahunter, somehow I think you'll agree with this Stats Canada guy.

    Ontario economy too dependent on housing ‘bubble,’ new study warns | Financial Post

    The report’s author, Philip Cross, who worked 36 years at Statistics Canada, warned that, ...could collapse, leading to serious economic disruption that would ripple across Ontario.

    “Our society loves bubbles, because most people make a lot of money on it,” Cross said..."

    "... But that is not what happened. Instead, Ontario’s high electricity prices, increases in regulation, high personal tax rate and hikes in the minimum wage have all conspired to depress Ontario’s manufacturing sector, which shriveled from 21 per cent of the Ontario economy in 2002 to 12 per cent in 2015, the report said. “Ontario’s electricity costs are the highest in North America for most businesses,” it notes. The last auto plant, Toyota, opened in Ontario in 2009, and since then carmakers have tended to shed workers, the report says.

    “You can see the Bank of Canada pulling its hair out for the last couple of years going, ‘Why didn’t the manufacturing sector respond?’ ” Cross said. “It’s the high cost of doing business in Ontario.”...

    "We in Ontario always look down our nose at oil and gas, that it’s clearly cyclical,” he said. “But there is nothing more cyclical than the Ontario manufacturing industry. And the Ontario housing industry is clearly more cyclical more cyclical than Alberta’s oil and gas industry. There is no reason to be smug.”"


    http://business.financialpost.com/ne...2-bc6b4be7169d



    Last edited by KC; 05-07-2017 at 08:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    West NDP wouldn't but most of the NDP "fan base" is East. I get the feeling that West NDP is just slightly left of Centre. I'm not a fan of Notley or the NDP and this Manifesto gimmick is just that, a gimmick. During TM leadership bid when proponents of Leap, handed out flyers, some delegates thought it was crazy.

    It is crazy, wacko I saw Avi on CBC, he's nuts! !

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