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Thread: Premier Notley's First Year

  1. #1
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    Default Premier Notley's First Year

    Discuss

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle29904241/

    "...disdainful, almost patronizing tone emitted from the province's conservative old guard...."

    Must have looked at this board!
    Last edited by The Man From YEG; 06-05-2016 at 10:08 AM.

  2. #2

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    Good article. However, he generally seems to agree with the policies so of course he'd praise the government and their resolve. As for the opposition's comments, it's their appointed role. For decades we had to listen to the Liberals and the NDP whine about the PCs. Try to think of a time that any opposition party gave credit where credit was due. Don't expect a modicum of integrity and honour from any of these ideologically based, power hungry groups of people.
    Last edited by KC; 06-05-2016 at 10:31 AM.

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    That's the way to start off a discussion.

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    Default Premier Notley's First Year

    I always find it interesting to read what the Globe and Mail has to say about Alberta politics.

    On one hand they can have a better perspective on things due to distance and being less emotionally invested in what is going on here. They also tend to focus more on the big things and less all the little day to day stuff in politics that sometimes gets people worked up, but will really mean little or nothing in the long term. This article is consistent with that.

    However, they can also miss things or underestimate things that are more noticeable here but do not seem as apparent or as important in Toronto. I also see some of that in the article. In particular, I would suggest that it has been (and is continuing to be) more of an adjustment for Albertans used to having the same party and ideology running things than the Globe and Mail realizes. We can argue the merits of the changes over the last year, but change in itself is disorienting for many people and there is a lot of change going on in Alberta, both with the economy and politically.

  5. #5

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    ^I don't think there has been that much change in many respects, aside from the tax increase (personal, corporate and carbon) and a bigger deficit. Royalties were kept the same. Civil service has continued the trend of the PC's post Klein and got bigger even though the economy is in free-fall. Debt is going up rapidly, we are living a lifestyle we can't afford anymore, the private sector has realized it, NDP hasn't clued in yet. We continue to have a spending problem not a revenue problem, sad thing is, this government is just accelerating the spending / head in sand.

  6. #6

    Default Premier Notley's First Year

    Perhaps on the surface it may may appear there has not been a lot of change - such as with the overall level of government spending and fiscal management. However, there has been hundreds of policy and management changes which might not affect you personally greatly, but do affect many other Albertans. Here is my very short of the top of my head list.

    1. Elimination of flat 10% personal tax
    2. Increase in corporate tax rates
    3. Increase in minimum wages
    4. Change in approach to labour and worker safety issues, including farm worker safety
    5. Change in environmental policy including processes for reviewing monitoring and approving resource development projects
    6. Carbon tax
    7. Changes to streamline and eliminate various government boards and agencies
    8. Changes to revenue sharing between urban and rural municipalities

    Each of these changes would probably be considered to be major on their own if undertaken by any new government, but because they all happened together so quickly and around the same time may be difficult to see the forest for the trees or as I said before, disorienting.

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    ^Number 8 is in the works. We don't know what will happen yet.

    Also, no changes to health which is frankly the only thing that actually matters in our budget in terms of expenditures. Streamlining ABCs is small change compared to AHS bloat. We need to gut AHS and reform health from the ground up.

    I have an overall pessimistic view of Notley's first year for this failure, and for inclusion of oil prices in future projects to return to a balanced budget. We should be doing the opposite - moving away from oil as a funding source for operational spending. In that way Prentice's budget was better (but a lot worse in other ways). I am less concerned about the current deficit, which is fine for our economic state. The lack of real plan for long term reform is the worrying part.

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    The elimination of the 10% tax rate was in the Prentice budget though, Notley just left it alone. Similar other legislation was banning flavored cigarettes and higher distracted driving fines (the NDP did add demerits though).

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    The Premier and a good portion of cabinet were celebrating 1 yr last night at Red Star.
    www.decl.org

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    ^appropriate.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The Premier and a good portion of cabinet were celebrating 1 yr last night at Red Star.
    I'm sorry....what?

    Is this true?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    It's on their twitter @RedStarPub
    https://twitter.com/RedStarPub

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The Premier and a good portion of cabinet were celebrating 1 yr last night at Red Star.
    I'm sorry....what?

    Is this true?
    I saw it first hand, kinda neat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^appropriate.

    I lived in Poland in the 80's. The NDP is definitely not that. But I would still take that than the far reich right.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I don't think there has been that much change in many respects, aside from the tax increase (personal, corporate and carbon) and a bigger deficit. Royalties were kept the same. Civil service has continued the trend of the PC's post Klein and got bigger even though the economy is in free-fall. Debt is going up rapidly, we are living a lifestyle we can't afford anymore, the private sector has realized it, NDP hasn't clued in yet. We continue to have a spending problem not a revenue problem, sad thing is, this government is just accelerating the spending / head in sand.
    The private sectors fiduciary responsibility is to its shareholders. Governments is to its citizens. I'm sure the NDP has clued in, but their job is far more complex and holistic than the relatively simplistic environment and decisions businesses are involved in.

    BTW most businesses also have a spending problem. Revenues are rarely fully in the hands of any business.



    Icahn: Republicans don’t understand economics and it’s killing the country

    CNBC By Everett Rosenfeld
    April 28, 2016


    Additionally, worrying about a deficit when there is no significant inflation and the dollar remains the global reserve currency is not a smart way to govern, Icahn said, adding that "a country is not a company."

    While a company would go bankrupt if it owed too much money, the same could not be said of the United States anytime soon, Icahn explained, reiterating that he can't "understand this obsession" that many Republican politicians have with the deficit.

    "They keep saying we owe all this money to China , but we're really not going to pay it back ever in a normal way," Icahn said. "So China decides 'I want my money back.' OK, well how do you want it back? You want dollar bills, you want Treasurys, what do you want?"

    That said, Icahn cautioned that he was not advocating for the government to "go crazy and borrow money and have money floating around and have rampant inflation."

    "Everything has equilibrium, everything has a middle ground, and we are so obsessed with that deficit," Icahn said. "And I never thought I'd agree completely with guys like (economist Paul) Krugman, but in this sense he's sort of right: I mean, you absolutely need fiscal stimulus in this economy."

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/icahn-...193518356.html

    For those who don't know who Icahn is:


    Icahn endorsed Donald Trump for the 2016 US presidential election. He also announced the formation of a super PAC pledging $150 million to push for corporate tax reform. Icahn will target inversions, which occur when corporations leave the U.S. to take advantage of lower tax rates elsewhere.[67]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Icahn
    Last edited by KC; 06-05-2016 at 04:43 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Premier Notley's First Year

    I think they probably considered what they could more easily change and decided that their first year was not the time to change AHS. It had been restructured so many times already, I think most staff were confused and tired from all the past changes and they needed some time just to focus on service delivery. AHS is also quite complex and I think they also wanted to get a better handle on it before making any major changes.

    I don't think my list of 8 is exhaustive, some one could probably come up with a longer list, nor does it preclude other changes in the future or further work in the areas listed. However, I do think it was quite ambitious for one year.

    We talk a lot about sustainable operational spending in Alberta, but the truth is we haven't had this for the last 30 years. We have relied on resource revenues to cover operating expenses. The low price of oil makes the problem more painfully evident now. I don't expect that a difficult 30 year problem will be easily fixed in one year. I suspect that one will take longer.

    Regarding a long term plan, perhaps the NDP will do what the PC's did and hope for oil prices to go up again. It seemed to work for them politically for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^Number 8 is in the works. We don't know what will happen yet.

    Also, no changes to health which is frankly the only thing that actually matters in our budget in terms of expenditures. Streamlining ABCs is small change compared to AHS bloat. We need to gut AHS and reform health from the ground up.

    I have an overall pessimistic view of Notley's first year for this failure, and for inclusion of oil prices in future projects to return to a balanced budget. We should be doing the opposite - moving away from oil as a funding source for operational spending. In that way Prentice's budget was better (but a lot worse in other ways). I am less concerned about the current deficit, which is fine for our economic state. The lack of real plan for long term reform is the worrying part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DTrobotnik View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^appropriate.

    I lived in Poland in the 80's. The NDP is definitely not that. But I would still take that than the far reich right.
    Fair enough, but conservatives don't generally go hang out in a bar called the red swastika

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    ^ only you would know
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    I would give a solid B+
    Would have been an A- but for the dearth of skills/experience in her team (can't really blame them; NDPers were expecting 10-15 seats, not 50+ but such is life.......)
    I am not a dipper (more of a small-l, and federally big-L Liberal), but the premier (plus Ganley, Sabir and Phillips) have consistently impressed me.
    Not sure what the long term implications of some policies would be, but really happy to see the raising of the min.wage. This alone would float a lot of boats and bring change the rest of the country should emulate.
    My advice would be : don't get too comfortable, listen to people (supporters and fence-sitters alike) and keep a good working relationship with Feds.
    Good luck!

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    Not necessarily in order but, Bill 6, Minimum wage increase, no balanced budget, reduced credit rating on her watch, carbon tax, elimination of the carbon capture program, eliminating coal plants, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but I'd give her a C minus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Not necessarily in order but, Bill 6, Minimum wage increase, no balanced budget, reduced credit rating on her watch, carbon tax, elimination of the carbon capture program, eliminating coal plants, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but I'd give her a C minus.
    Bill 6...the biggest piece of non regulation passed so far, to date the only action is requiring farmers to have WCB instead of private insurance...no actual regulation to date.

    But wait there's more...
    I do not blame the Government in power for the drop in oil prices,but I blame them for:
    - Zero actual action on job creation,lots of talk, created a ministry but no action.
    - Lots of talk again on diversification...no action
    - Lots of talk on infrastructure, there is already more than enough information, studies, priorities etc...but nothing implemented.

    Those items alone put the current Government in power at a "D".

    This is not a time for ideology...it is a time for practical action.
    People who are working,people who feel secure are more prone to accept new ideas, change and new directions than those that are out of work, worried about feeding their families and paying their bills.

    They have been doing it backwards and I am very disappointed, I had hoped for better and that's not counting all of their PR and HR disasters.

    In my highly biased personal opinion

    T

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    ^ That "D" rating is a bit harsh, ouch.

    I haven't heard a peep from RC's Government about adding to the Heritage Trust fund. In total agreement with you about practical action.

    Good call on the doing it backwards part.

    As for infrastructure didn't this Government provide some funding for the Valley line?
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Not necessarily in order but, Bill 6, Minimum wage increase, no balanced budget, reduced credit rating on her watch, carbon tax, elimination of the carbon capture program, eliminating coal plants, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but I'd give her a C minus.
    Workplace safety:

    I don't see anything wrong with Bill 6. Its equalizing rules for all employers with some variation for circumstances.


    Finance and fiscal conditons:

    The minimum wage increase may be a bit misguided but something needs to be done for those that don't have the necessary skills or wealth to sustain themselves. We pay one way or another.

    No balanced budget and downgrade - give us an ideological break please - that blame falls on the PCs who should have had the institutional memory to recall what happened in the 1980s. We needed a soft landing one way or the other.


    Environment:

    Carbon tax - I'm neutral on that. It seems inevitable and hopefully it gives Alberta more so called 'moral' leverage to see our resources. It's a sin tax in a sense that will pay for things that would otherwise be subsidized via income taxes.

    Elimination of carbon caputure us extremely bad policy because the technology is now becoming very price competitive (especially with a carbon tax) and cost effective carbon capture could give up us a huge competive advantage. (It's on par with cancelling solar developments just before solar technology became cost competive.)

    Eliminating coal plants falls out of the carbon capture issue. Going slow could turn it around for coal via carbon capture and particularly so in light of the new natural gas equivalent CO2 emitting coal units coming on steam now. The negative health issues (extrapolated data) didn't make sense considering the prevailing winds and small downwind populations. Edmonton, Calgary, Red Deer citizens are mostly breathing airborne toxins of a very local nature and not from the coal plants.
    Last edited by KC; 08-05-2016 at 01:31 PM.

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    ^ Ask the agricultural community about Bill 6.

    I read (can't find the article) that the elimination of the CC program will result in $250M loss over the next 4 years.

    By eliminating coal plants would add about an extra $600/year on to the typical home owner.

    There's no action on job creation.
    Last edited by envaneo; 08-05-2016 at 02:10 PM.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Not necessarily in order but, Bill 6, Minimum wage increase, no balanced budget, reduced credit rating on her watch, carbon tax, elimination of the carbon capture program, eliminating coal plants, I'm sure I'm missing a lot more but I'd give her a C minus.
    Workplace safety:

    I don't see anything wrong with Bill 6. Its equalizing rules for all employers with some variation for circumstances.
    But that is not what the Bill has done...

    Go back to the Bill 6 thread and read the links Paul Turnbull provided.

    At the time it was passed the only functional portion, as I recall and I have not seen any changes released, was the requirement to go to WCB even if the farm was covering with superior private insurance.

    No other regulation at the time it was passed, all TBA. I have been following this on and off and have seen no change to the bill at this point.

    It was a shell and I believe done to prove they could do it.

    IMO

    T

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    Bill 6 was an example of Govt meddling. Any Govt can't be all things to all people, most of us get that. Workplace safety is one thing, Govt meddling is another.
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Bill 6 was an example of Govt meddling. Any Govt can't be all things to all people, most of us get that. Workplace safety is one thing, Govt meddling is another.
    That sounds more like ideological dogma that reasoned argument. Some workers weren't protected by legislation and the issue has arisen at least one time in the past and the PCs themselves had pursued it until they got a lot of pushback. So was the pushback reasonable, accepting of a potentially reasonable compromise or was it purely self serving?

    Since the government backed off on it in the past did the farm group (or individual interests) then step up to offer a better solution to solve the problem and better serve their own interests or just chalk it up as a win, and then sit back and wait for another government to raise the issue again?

  28. #28

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    Probably about an A-

    Mostly I'm not sure if their implementation of a carbon tax is correct. I'm for a carbon tax, I'm not totally sold that their solution is the right one. Feels a bit more like wealth transfer where we should be strictly promoting environmental stewardship.

    Pretty much everything else they have or have not done sits well. I'll bump that up to an A or A+ if they successfully negotiate a haircut to public salaries across the board. Teachers and nurses can threaten all they want, but when we're billions short of paying the bills and their salaries are 80% of the bills, something's gotta give.

    I'm in the camp that governments have limited powers to effectively create jobs unless they simply spend money on infrastructure projects or long term education to create new industries, and I feel they're pulling those levers effectively at the moment.
    Last edited by Chmilz; 08-05-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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    ^ What about supporting small business? Quebec does this better then any Provincial Govt.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ What about supporting small business? Quebec does this better then any Provincial Govt.
    That's rather vague. What kind of support do you feel they could be offering, specifically? Keep in mind that they included a tax reduction for small businesses which starts Jan 1 2017, from 3% to 2%.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  31. #31

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    KC
    Since the government backed off on it in the past did the farm group (or individual interests) then step up to offer a better solution to solve the problem
    Most did, they implemented private insurance that is actually superior to WCB. If that was all they were trying to do then Bill 6 could have simply been legislation requiring all farms/ranches to have WCB or Private Insurance...but thats not what they did.

    What they did was pass a Bill giving sweeping powers of change with no back up regulation or legislation, done with no real consultation. Part of that change will eventually be OHS, which in itself is fine...but try taking a look at the sweeping powers of access that gives to OHS in being able to access private homes and personal property...give it a google.

    Bill 6 was poor legislation, rammed through without the full regulation being part, but with it in place the government in power has basically a blank sheet of paper to do what they wish...its passed.

    I wonder if you would be so accepting of such a Bill if it affected your rights.

    Chmilz
    I'm in the camp that governments have limited powers to effectively create jobs unless they simply spend money on infrastructure projects or long term education to create new industries, and I feel they're pulling those levers effectively at the moment.
    I'm surprised at your position considering the stand you take in most posting and comments.

    They have made promises, not delivered. They set up a ministry based on a badly flawed jobs plan never implemented. Based on many of your past comments I would expect you to be somewhat, shall we say disappointed.

    If they had actually started implementing promised infrastructure projects...I might agree.

    If they had pushed Tourism, Agriculture, Forestry to the forefront and made serious efforts in promoting these strong secondary industries...I might agree.

    If they had set up reduced rate small business loans, grants etc. ...I might agree

    Or any number of practical options...but they haven't IMO.

    They have been making the same errors on this front as the PCs as I see it.

    IMO

    T
    Last edited by Thomas Hinderks; 08-05-2016 at 09:06 PM.

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    ^Good points. It's easy to forget things that simply vanish.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^Good points. It's easy to forget things that simply vanish.
    Agree. The problem with the system seemed to be a lack of anyone in the labourers' court. The private insurance option seems to be a great alternative. However, maybe some sort of pooled legal defence fund would also be needed since insurers aren't on the side of the labourer either. No one wants to pay for injuries, neither the farmer nor the insurer.*

    * Note: I'd never consider private insurers to be on the side of the policy holders or victims. They are only on the side of the management and the shareholders.
    Last edited by KC; 10-05-2016 at 08:39 PM.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    ^Good points. It's easy to forget things that simply vanish.
    Agree. The problem with the system seemed to be a lack of anyone in the labourers' court. The private insurance option seems to be a great alternative. However, maybe some sort of pooled legal defence fund would also be needed since insurers aren't on the side of the labourer either. No one wants to pay for injuries, neither the farmer nor the insurer.*

    * Note: I'd never consider private insurers to be on the side of the policy holders or victims. They are only on the side of the management and the shareholders.
    So based on your thoughts and WCB's history...who's side are they on? Are they an improvement?

    T

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    New rules re: payday loan operators expected soon. Stay tuned, will be an important change for the province.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    New rules re: payday loan operators expected soon. Stay tuned, will be an important change for the province.
    Interestingly, Google announced today they will no longer allow ads for payday loans on any of their networks/platforms. Huge move. Google is doing what governments have been slow to do. This will hurt the predatory lending industry, and no one with any ethics will shed any tears.
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    I don't have a problem with payday loans per se` its just the number of them. They are popping up like liquor stores, shoppers drug marts and 7-11's. I work off of 107th Ave and 124th street and there are 3 of these pay day loan companies within a block of each other. I live across the street from a shoppers drug mart and there's 4 pharmacy's within a mile of us. There are 2 7-11's within a block of the RBC building downtown. Yeesh already.
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  38. #38

    Default Premier Notley's First Year

    One of the reason we have so many social problems these days is that so many governments seemed to have washed their hands of doing anything to protect people from those like payday loan companies that prey on the vulnerable.

    I am glad both the Alberta government and Google see these predators for the blight they really are on society, charging such interest rates used to be a CRIMINAL offense.

    As for 7-11's, I tend to avoid them because of the gauntlet of panhandlers often in front of them. Fortunately, they don't hang out as much in front of Shoppers which I consider to be just a bigger and prettier version of a convenience store with a beauty department and pharmacy.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    As for 7-11's, I tend to avoid them because of the gauntlet of panhandlers often in front of them. Fortunately, they don't hang out as much in front of Shoppers which I consider to be just a bigger and prettier version of a convenience store with a beauty department and pharmacy.
    I never really understood why that is, I'm guessing they have better security at Shoppers / box stores, whereas the local corner grocery / Mac / 7/11 can't do much.

  40. #40

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    Ezra Levant vs. Red Star, ie. misplaced outrage about nothing:

    https://twitter.com/ezralevant/statu...52154847219712

    LOLZ
    www.decl.org

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    How dare she not spend every waking hour on something that she really has no control over at this point. Seriously, do people expect her to go up there and fight the fire herself?

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    Ezra Levant vs. Red Star, ie. misplaced outrage about nothing:

    https://twitter.com/ezralevant/statu...52154847219712

    LOLZ
    Someone come get me when Ezra does absolutely anything of value. I expect I'll be kept waiting.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    As for 7-11's, I tend to avoid them because of the gauntlet of panhandlers often in front of them. Fortunately, they don't hang out as much in front of Shoppers which I consider to be just a bigger and prettier version of a convenience store with a beauty department and pharmacy.
    I never really understood why that is, I'm guessing they have better security at Shoppers / box stores, whereas the local corner grocery / Mac / 7/11 can't do much.
    There's always a security guard at Shoppers Drug Mart in Clareview. Maybe because the 7-11's, Mac's are franchised?
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  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    New rules re: payday loan operators expected soon. Stay tuned, will be an important change for the province.
    No it's not IMO.

    A real job creation program, as was promised and a ministry was set up to implement, would be an important change.

    Real infrastructure announcements with start dates and approved budgets would be a real change.

    New rules for payday loans is tinkering, may well be well intentioned, but it's tinkering. The people using this service are adults, they must read and sign various documents and legal agreements...in short they know what they are getting into.

    If they do not read, understand or ask questions so they so understand then it is a version of buyer beware.

    I've seen on this forum the normal reaction to someone signing a sales agreement or making a purchase without thinking it through...and it is usually not sympathetic or pretty.

    Why is this different?

    The number of them and presence is a municiple zoning issue as I see it.

    IMO

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    I'm surprised they didn't color the Alberta chart orange instead of red - 4% recession (more like depression), quite a year for Notley to be proud of:

    The Statistics Canada report on gross domestic product across the provinces showed Alberta’s economy contracting by a greater-than-expected 4 per cent last year amid the collapse in oil prices.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29989500/

    So much for all that "infrastructure" spending boosting growth...
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-05-2016 at 03:39 PM.

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    The payday loans legislation has been introduced:

    The proposed legislation includes changes that:
    • Reduce borrowing fees from $23 to $15 per $100 borrowed, making it the lowest rate in Canada;
    • Allow borrowers to repay loans in instalments, rather than all at once;
    • Require lenders to refer borrowers to financial literacy resources;
    • Prohibit lenders from directly soliciting potential customers;
    • Include all fees in calculating cost of borrowing
    • Prohibit lenders from charging a fee to cash a cheque for a payday loan;
    • Prohibit lenders from soliciting, negotiating or concluding an agreement for another form of credit with a borrower while a payday loan is outstanding.
    http://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xI...1F47E398B7F6C4

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    It appears as though cheque cashing (i.e. cashing a check made out to the customer) has also been banned. Along with the use of seedy collection and advertisement methods.

    Prohibited practices
    124.2(1) A payday lender shall not engage in any of the following practices:

    (a) discounting the principal amount of a payday loan;

    (b) collecting or receiving any fees or charges before the first payday loan instalment payment is due;

    (c) granting a rollover loan;

    (d) accepting a cheque from a borrower that is not payable to the payday lender;

    (e) subject to the regulations, requiring a payday loan instalment payment to be due on a day before the day on which a borrower will receive his or her pay or other income for the pay period to which that instalment payment relates;

    (f) requiring, requesting or accepting information or consent that would give the payday lender or a third party direct access to a borrower’s bank account, other than information required for pre-authorization for repayment of a specific payday loan;

    (g) attempting to process a payday loan instalment payment before the day on which it is due;

    (h) making withdrawals from a borrower’s account without the express consent of the borrower;

    (i) charging any amount to a borrower to whom the payday lender provides a payday loan in addition to the fees provided for in the agreement with that borrower in relation to the payday loan;

    (j) charging a fee for converting a payday loan cheque issued by the payday lender to cash;

    k) failing to include the name of the payday lender as shown on the payday lender’s licence in all contact and correspondence with the borrower;

    (l) making any call in person or by telephone for the purpose of collecting or attempting to collect an outstanding payday loan payment except between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m. in Alberta;

    (m) directly or indirectly threatening or stating an intention to proceed with any action for which there is no lawful authority;

    (n) contacting an individual other than the borrower for the purposes of collecting or attempting to collect an outstanding payday loan payment;

    (o) contacting or attempting to contact any individual in respect of an outstanding payday loan payment by any means in such a manner as to constitute harassment, including but not limited to
    (i) the use of threatening, profane, intimidating orcoercive language,
    (ii) the use of undue, excessive or unreasonable pressure, or
    (iii) the use of telephone, e-mail, a call in person or other methods of contact, other than traditional mail, to call or send messages excessively;

    (p) giving any person, directly or indirectly, by implication or otherwise, any false or misleading information, including but not limited to references to the police, a law firm, prison, credit history, court proceedings or a lien or garnishment;

    (q) contacting a borrower’s spouse or adult interdependent partner, relative, neighbour, friend or acquaintance unless the contact is limited to the purpose of obtaining the borrower’s residential address, personal telephone number or employment telephone number;

    (r) contacting a borrower’s employer for any purpose other than to confirm the borrower’s employment status and business title, the business address of the borrower’s place of employment or the date of the borrower’s next payday;

    (s) contacting a borrower at the borrower’s place of employment for the purposes of collecting or attempting to collect an outstanding payday loan payment;

    (t) contacting a borrower at the borrower’s place of employment, for any reason other than collecting or attempting to collect an outstanding payday loan payment, if the borrower
    (i) requests the payday lender not to contact the borrower there,
    (ii) makes reasonable arrangements to discuss the payday loan with the payday lender, and
    (iii) discusses the payday loan with the payday lender in accordance with the arrangements;

    (u) communicating information about a payday loan or the existence of a payday loan to any person without the express consent of the borrower;

    (v) entering into or arranging wage assignments with a borrower or the employer of a borrower;

    (w) publishing or threatening to publish a notice of a borrower’s failure to pay;

    (x) giving false, misleading or deceptive information in advertisements, solicitations or negotiations with respect to a payday loan;

    (y) soliciting, negotiating or entering into an agreement with a borrower respecting another form of credit at a time when a payday loan entered into by the borrower is outstanding;

    (z) actively soliciting individuals through direct contact by mail, phone, fax, e-mail or a social media website.
    http://www.assembly.ab.ca/ISYS/LADDA...8_bill-015.pdf
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 12-05-2016 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I'm surprised they didn't color the Alberta chart orange instead of red - 4% recession (more like depression), quite a year for Notley to be proud of:

    The Statistics Canada report on gross domestic product across the provinces showed Alberta’s economy contracting by a greater-than-expected 4 per cent last year amid the collapse in oil prices.
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle29989500/

    So much for all that "infrastructure" spending boosting growth...
    Not a depression yet. Even the most slack definitions say real GDP has to drop more than 10 per cent or a recession has to last more than two years. The fire might push us into that definition although I doubt we'll see unemployment in the ranges of the real depressions.

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    ^ Paradoxically, the fire will likely increase GDP in the short term. This is one of the failures of GDP as a measure. The GDP does not measure the loss of assets, it measures production. Expenditures on repairing the damage are included in that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ Paradoxically, the fire will likely increase GDP in the short term. This is one of the failures of GDP as a measure. The GDP does not measure the loss of assets, it measures production. Expenditures on repairing the damage are included in that.
    Medium term. In the short term the loss of production from the oil sands is a big hit. Big enough the economists are already revising their growth forecasts for this year down.

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    Natural gas is now at the lowest price on record, ever & they're running outta room to store the surplus so they're gonna hafta cut back on production in the next little while.

    http://business.financialpost.com/ne..._lsa=c537-6ee8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    ^ Paradoxically, the fire will likely increase GDP in the short term. This is one of the failures of GDP as a measure. The GDP does not measure the loss of assets, it measures production. Expenditures on repairing the damage are included in that.
    Medium term. In the short term the loss of production from the oil sands is a big hit. Big enough the economists are already revising their growth forecasts for this year down.
    I was at a small "fireside chat" with RBC's Chief Economist yesterday, and his summation was that the fires will essentially just shift some GDP around. It'll slow things down in the short term, but it will come back stronger next year.

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    I'm surprised they didn't color the Alberta chart orange instead of red - 4% recession (more like depression), quite a year for Notley to be proud of:
    You're adorable. Notley was sworn in when the year was nearly half over. Governments and their policies don't work as fast as you'd like to think. It takes months for policy changes and new programs to take effect. You can blame 90% of what happened in 2015 on the PC government and the massive decline in energy prices.

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    ^That's why I was saying slow down in the short term and growth in the medium term. Of course growth in the medium term is expected even without the fire.

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    Just a couple of things here; As a Conservative, I've got to give it up to RC. I like how she's sticking up for Edmonton in this ei business and promoting pipelines. I also like how she's making the carbon tax revenue neutral for low income. I'm of the opinion (and science backs this up) that global warming or climate change, or whatever the F you want to call it (depending on who you talk to) is cyclic in nature. Granted yes we have way too many people on the planet contributing (anthropogenic) to "global warming." Eight Billion people on planet earth is not sustainable imo, yet somehow we're making this work. Other then the drop in our credit rating and nothing about growing our Heritage trust fund she hasn't F'd up too badly. I'm revising her 1st year to a C+
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    But how much should having a huge deficit and have no plan whatsoever to reduce it factor into the grade? To me this reduces her grade to barely above passing, D-

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    I don't mind a deficit for awhile. Oil prices will recover eventually. Alberta is still poised to be in a good position over the next few years. She's got another 3 more years, lets see how she handles the $35B job creation plan or whatever its called. C+ is as neutral as I'm willing to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    But how much should having a huge deficit and have no plan whatsoever to reduce it factor into the grade? To me this reduces her grade to barely above passing, D-
    That's about where I am as well. I was talking to a transaction specialist recently, told me normally when there is a situation like this, the investors start piling in to buy up companies cheap / pump money in to create an economic rebound, but that they all afraid to right now because of the massive government deficits - they know that sooner or later with left wing policies of endlessly expanding Government, taxes are going to have to ramp up to pay for it, which will kill their returns. Until we get a government that faces up to reality that we can no longer afford the richest per capita government sector in Canada, things are just going to get worse before they get better. Notley also destroyed small business investment, there used to be a personal tax advantage to invest in a business here versus somewhere else in Canada, that has gone, and he investment went with it, right when we need it most.
    Last edited by moahunter; 13-05-2016 at 03:16 PM.

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    I understand running a deficit, it's pretty hard to avoid with this sudden of a drop in oil price. But bond rating agencies take a very negative view when the finance minister admits publicly they don't have a timeline to balance the budget.

    If you were a bank or lender would you lend money to someone that will not tell you when they'll pay you back?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    they know that sooner or later with left wing policies of endlessly expanding Government
    I'll remind you once again that it was a supposedly right wing government that endlessly expanded the government over the past 10-15 years. I'll also remind you that the deficit is not a result of expanded government by the NDP. Under them spending has hardly gone up. 90-95% of the deficit is the result of the collapse in energy royalties. If it's so easy to restrain government spending, why did your beloved PC's seem unable to since the Klein 90's? The NDP are supposed to clean up 15 years of PC mismanagement in 12 months?

    That being said, I do find it concerning that their projections don't seem to have any "path to zero" for the deficit, and largely depends on energy royalties increasing again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    But bond rating agencies take a very negative view....
    The same agencies were complicit in the 2007-2008 meltdown and I'm surprised that anyone pays them any attention whatsoever.

    Many of their executives should have been jailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    But how much should having a huge deficit and have no plan whatsoever to reduce it factor into the grade? To me this reduces her grade to barely above passing, D-
    Come up with a good way to get teachers, nurses, and basic civil servants to eat a major wage rollback without grinding the province to a halt.

    The vast majority of spending is on their salaries, and they basically have any government by the balls. Just because there's no corporate tax money flowing in doesn't mean those public salaries disappear. Not filling potholes on the QE2 won't free up $8 billion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    The vast majority of spending is on their salaries, and they basically have any government by the balls.
    Citation please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    But how much should having a huge deficit and have no plan whatsoever to reduce it factor into the grade? To me this reduces her grade to barely above passing, D-
    Come up with a good way to get teachers, nurses, and basic civil servants to eat a major wage rollback without grinding the province to a halt.

    The vast majority of spending is on their salaries, and they basically have any government by the balls. Just because there's no corporate tax money flowing in doesn't mean those public salaries disappear. Not filling potholes on the QE2 won't free up $8 billion.
    Yes, all 100,000 public sector workers in Alberta fill potholes for a living.
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    Most of Alberta's budget is going to healthcare then education. Now Notley will not do much significantly to cut their salaries as this is her prime voter base. She might try to surplus middle management positions and perhaps streamline some administration, delay some capital projects, but that will pretty much be at the most the NDP will do.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...budget-tuesday

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    ^I have a pal whose wife is an anesthesiologist making 600k a year. That's where the money is going, they live a pretty good lifestyle, no worries of a layoff, paycut, or similar.

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    I am sure that a cost-conscious person like you will ask for a lead bullet to clench between your teeth for any surgery in order to save costs....

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    ^I'd be fine if they brought in someone from New Zealand and paid them 300k to do it. I'm encouraging my kids to consider becoming doctors though, neither of them seem that emotional (so won't get upset the odd stuff up that kills someone), and it is certainly a money trough with job security, once you get over the hard slog of the first decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I'd be fine if they brought in someone from New Zealand and paid them 300k to do it. I'm encouraging my kids to consider becoming doctors though, neither of them seem that emotional (so won't get upset the odd stuff up that kills someone), and it is certainly a money trough with job security.
    I dare you to go up to your pal's wife at the next social function you see them at and tell her your thoughts about importing foreign 'workers' to replace her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I'd be fine if they brought in someone from New Zealand and paid them 300k to do it. I'm encouraging my kids to consider becoming doctors though, neither of them seem that emotional (so won't get upset the odd stuff up that kills someone), and it is certainly a money trough with job security, once you get over the hard slog of the first decade.
    The first step would be switching from fee for service to salary then.

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    How about unlocking control of the medical schools and getting more people trained as doctors?

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    ^its a classic case of a profession forcing their value up by limiting supply / admissions. Then they get all upset / try to restrict when foreign doctors, many of them from countries with superior health care system than Canada (e.g. Japan), try to come to Canada. We should, IMO, automatically accept the qualifications of those doctors and nurses who come from top ranking health care systems.

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    Teacher and physician salaries are not the problem (though I agree specialist physician salaries are way overinflated here). I disagree that education spending is actually out of line for our population growth. The main problem with education is how we have neglected to integrate education services with municipal growth planning leading to very wasteful infrastructure requirements.

    Physician salaries comprise $3.8 billion under health and $955 million under AHS of the total $20.3 billion in health spending. Administration is $2.4 billion, diagnostics is $2.1 billion under AHS and $301 million under health, $5.4 billion(!) is for facility based services under AHS (operation of AHS facilities). As a percentage of the total health system physicians account for under 25% of total spending, which is downright shameful.

    The key is the bloated behemoth that is Alberta Health Services. We need to scrap the fractured system of health services and replace it with a coherent system of centrally administered team-based care clinics and amalgamated secondary/tertiary care hospitals. This would cut down the administration, avoid duplication of facility expenditures, and deliver superior patient outcomes. It would also assist in bringing down physician compensation costs as they could be salaried to prevent abuse (*cough* medicentre/other walk-in patient mills) and more effectively utilized in a team-based setting.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 17-05-2016 at 11:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its a classic case of a profession forcing their value up by limiting supply / admissions. Then they get all upset / try to restrict when foreign doctors, many of them from countries with superior health care system than Canada (e.g. Japan), try to come to Canada. We should, IMO, automatically accept the qualifications of those doctors and nurses who come from top ranking health care systems.
    The fields of medicine, dentistry, and pharmacy in Canada have very powerful lobbying capabilities.

    For example, I have a friend who has been a pharmacist since 1987. Suffice to say that he is a multi-millionaire from owning two rural pharmacies, plus land and buildings, and leases out space to some tenants.

    This pharmacist makes more than any anesthesiologist.

    Who would want to disrupt this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    The fields of medicine, dentistry, and pharmacy in Canada have very powerful lobbying capabilities.
    Indeed. Especially for doctors - wow. They can get away with anything they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    The fields of medicine, dentistry, and pharmacy in Canada have very powerful lobbying capabilities.
    Indeed. Especially for doctors - wow. They can get away with anything they want.
    Especially in Alberta. See: slowing EHR creation, stonewalling team-based clinics, blocking reform to primary care billing (i.e. ending patient mills), refusing to adopt new EMR tech (e-prescribe)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Most of Alberta's budget is going to healthcare then education. Now Notley will not do much significantly to cut their salaries as this is her prime voter base. She might try to surplus middle management positions and perhaps streamline some administration, delay some capital projects, but that will pretty much be at the most the NDP will do.
    On the other hand, sometimes it is the base that is the easiest to go after. What are they going to do, vote for the Wildrose?
    A plan that cuts salaries in a way that reduces wage disparities and avoids layoffs or increasing workloads may well be supported. There is justification in the form of a huge deficit and the highest salaries in the country. Pair that with a scheme that ensures the 600 k anesthesiologist takes a 10% cut while the 150 k general practitioner takes a 7% cut and the 100 k nurse takes a 5% cut and it just might work.

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    ^ Will be tremendously difficult to keep qualified professionals here.

    Easier options:
    - Wage freeze for 3-5 years (equals ~ 5% cut)
    - Every second Friday off, unpaid

    These options were used by Gary Filmon, former Premier of Manitoba, in the 1990s. He used this method to win a couple of times, and yet kept both public sector and private sector sides reasonably happy. I recall the demand for cottages grew in Manitoba in the 1990's, as many people took off to the lake every second Friday.
    Last edited by Bill; 17-05-2016 at 02:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Most of Alberta's budget is going to healthcare then education. Now Notley will not do much significantly to cut their salaries as this is her prime voter base. She might try to surplus middle management positions and perhaps streamline some administration, delay some capital projects, but that will pretty much be at the most the NDP will do.
    On the other hand, sometimes it is the base that is the easiest to go after. What are they going to do, vote for the Wildrose?
    A plan that cuts salaries in a way that reduces wage disparities and avoids layoffs or increasing workloads may well be supported. There is justification in the form of a huge deficit and the highest salaries in the country. Pair that with a scheme that ensures the 600 k anesthesiologist takes a 10% cut while the 150 k general practitioner takes a 7% cut and the 100 k nurse takes a 5% cut and it just might work.
    If one thing is absolutely the wrong option, it is cutting GP earnings. We already struggle to attract and retain enough family physicians because they don't make nearly as much as specialists. Even though the GP is the cornerstone of the entire medical system.

    If anything we need to raise primary care remuneration. Funny enough this can lead to savings in the long run due to better chronic disease management.

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    We can still provide enough care to people if we cut GP wages, and fill needed spots with nurse practitioners. NPs make a fraction of a GP's salary. Yet NPs do about 95% the same job as a family doctors, go to school for the same length of time, and in many cases their experiences giving IVs, physically administering meds, and doing more hands-on care than a family doctor does give them an advantage in patient care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    ^ Will be tremendously difficult to keep qualified professionals here.

    Easier options:
    - Wage freeze for 3-5 years (equals ~ 5% cut)
    - Every second Friday off, unpaid

    These options were used by Gary Filmon, former Premier of Manitoba, in the 1990s. He used this method to win a couple of times, and yet kept both public sector and private sector sides reasonably happy. I recall the demand for cottages grew in Manitoba in the 1990's, as many people took off to the lake every second Friday.
    Its frustrating something like this isn't being talked about. Its certainly whats happening in the private sector. I have heard stories of contractors taking a 45% roll back in fees, but people are just accepting it, because that's the times we live in now. Various companies have introduced unpaid leave on Fridays, and many have rolled back salaries 10%. We aren't the Alberta of post Klein years anymore, we couldn''t afford this in the boom years, and we can't afford it now. Prentice worded it wrong by laying blame on Albertan's, but in concept he was right re needing to change. Even with these types of measures, our public sector is doing well versus the rest of North America.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-05-2016 at 04:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    We can still provide enough care to people if we cut GP wages, and fill needed spots with nurse practitioners. NPs make a fraction of a GP's salary. Yet NPs do about 95% the same job as a family doctors, go to school for the same length of time, and in many cases their experiences giving IVs, physically administering meds, and doing more hands-on care than a family doctor does give them an advantage in patient care.
    You are missing how GPs are paid, and you clearly have no idea what a GP does. GPs operate their own clinics and receive their money by billing per patient. Out of the money they receive, they pay for the cost of operating their clinic. This operational cost includes nurses.

    Where exactly are these NPs working in your plan? It certainly isn't in GP offices. NPs make a lot of money. Their take-home would be a third of what many GPs bring in for the entire year before clinic operational costs.

    Also, NPs are not educated enough to act as a GP. They can assume many roles, especially with regard to chronic disease management, but they are not a replacement for a GP who can diagnose based on a medical degree and help their patient navigate the medical system.

    I agree with you that NPs need to take a much higher role in our system. We should have team-based clinics where GPs, NPs, specialists, and mental health practitioners are salaried and work collectively. However, we still need GPs.

    When I say "GPs are the cornerstone of the medical system", I'm not putting it lightly. Everything falls apart without that effective, accessible first line of medical care. You need someone very effective at diagnosing, managing chronic conditions, and acting as a patient advocate through the remainder of the system. Increased investments in this field actually yield savings in the long run because chronic conditions are properly managed and ailments are caught early.

    So no, cutting GP wages is absolutely the last thing we need to think of. They are largely (with patient mills the exception) grossly underpaid for the role they play in the greater medical system.

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    While this is tangential to the thread topic, I am having a hard time understanding the argument we have to pay a lot to keep medical staff in Alberta. I like specific examples, so when in above posts the example of anesthesiologist making 600K was mentioned, I did a quick search. Here is an interesting file from Canada Medical Association: https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-lib...esiology-e.pdf

    The average salary of an anesthesiologist was over 361K. Are we paying around twice the national average to keep people around? Doesn't make sense to me. Now, I know with certain experience levels higher pays is normal, but it looks like the doctors here have created a cartel model and rentiering Alberta.

    Anecdotally, my first shock when moving to Edmonton from Vancouver was the difficulty of finding a family physician who accepts new patients. After 1.5 years of trying out a few, we settled on a younger Doctor near our home. I was surprised that she only visit patients 9 am to 3 pm, and no weekends either. In contrast our family physician in Vancouver accommodated outside work hours and Saturdays. She would take the initiative follow up, for example, with upcoming vaccinations date for my daughter, or next check up time, calling us to book an appointment. Of course she would be paid by the system for the extra service. Here doctors make so much, with less work hours and the related stress and pressure, that they won't bother with extra work, it seems to me. The system certainly need some shaking up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    While this is tangential to the thread topic, I am having a hard time understanding the argument we have to pay a lot to keep medical staff in Alberta. I like specific examples, so when in above posts the example of anesthesiologist making 600K was mentioned, I did a quick search. Here is an interesting file from Canada Medical Association: https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-lib...esiology-e.pdf

    The average salary of an anesthesiologist was over 361K. Are we paying around twice the national average to keep people around? Doesn't make sense to me. Now, I know with certain experience levels higher pays is normal, but it looks like the doctors here have created a cartel model and rentiering Alberta.

    Anecdotally, my first shock when moving to Edmonton from Vancouver was the difficulty of finding a family physician who accepts new patients. After 1.5 years of trying out a few, we settled on a younger Doctor near our home. I was surprised that she only visit patients 9 am to 3 pm, and no weekends either. In contrast our family physician in Vancouver accommodated outside work hours and Saturdays. She would take the initiative follow up, for example, with upcoming vaccinations date for my daughter, or next check up time, calling us to book an appointment. Of course she would be paid by the system for the extra service. Here doctors make so much, with less work hours and the related stress and pressure, that they won't bother with extra work, it seems to me. The system certainly need some shaking up.

    Some specialists are indeed overpaid.

    GPs/family physicians are not. The shortage of GPs is largely due to a severe lack of people entering the market, not short work days. People just don't want to become a GP any more. The pay is extremely low compared to specialists, higher personal risk (you are investing in your own clinic as a business - not raking in money working out of an AHS facility), there is no glamour to it etc.

    Simply put we have a very hard time attracting and retaining GPs in this province for a reason.

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    Family Doctors do make up a high (close to 50%) of recent graduating classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    You are missing how GPs are paid, and you clearly have no idea what a GP does.
    You clearly have no idea that I work in the health care system, closely with family doctors, with nurse practitioners, and with their unions, in family care, emergent care, and urgent care. And have been doing this for a very long time now.

    You are a twit and need to learn to keep your boneheaded "armchair expert" ideas to yourself before you try and lecture someone who clearly knows more about a topic and industry than yourself.

    I hope that helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    You are missing how GPs are paid, and you clearly have no idea what a GP does.
    You clearly have no idea that I work in the health care system, closely with family doctors, with nurse practitioners, and with their unions, in family care, emergent care, and urgent care. And have been doing this for a very long time now.

    You are a twit and need to learn to keep your boneheaded "armchair expert" ideas to yourself before you try and lecture someone who clearly knows more about a topic and industry than yourself.

    I hope that helps.
    Maybe you can demystify this for me. I think it was post RN election where it was in her Caucus that Doctors in the AHS system, would have their pay reset every year. Has this gone through yet?

    Thanks.
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    Any experts out there who can tell me how much we could save by cutting the amount we pay to health care administrators by 2/3 or more?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Any experts out there who can tell me how much we could save by cutting the amount we pay to health care administrators by 2/3 or more?
    My bet is if you take away the only aspect of the health care system that tries to control costs, it will end up costing more not less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From YEG View Post
    Any experts out there who can tell me how much we could save by cutting the amount we pay to health care administrators by 2/3 or more?
    My bet is if you take away the only aspect of the health care system that tries to control costs, it will end up costing more not less.
    They did such a stellar job in the past few years I guess especially with expense accounts....

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    ^I didn't say the bureaucracy is great or good value or couldn't be improved, although I note, that issue was identified and ultimately dealt with. If you want to make it a spend free for all, take away all the controls and let doctors and unions decide to spend whatever they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    You are missing how GPs are paid, and you clearly have no idea what a GP does.
    You clearly have no idea that I work in the health care system, closely with family doctors, with nurse practitioners, and with their unions, in family care, emergent care, and urgent care. And have been doing this for a very long time now.

    You are a twit and need to learn to keep your boneheaded "armchair expert" ideas to yourself before you try and lecture someone who clearly knows more about a topic and industry than yourself.

    I hope that helps.

    Anger management problems got you down?

    You're the one suggesting that a GPs role could be replaced by an NP, and that slicing and dicing GP wages would fly over fine despite our pre-existent shortage. Seems odd that someone who works in health care would hold those views, because they are wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I have a pal whose wife is an anesthesiologist making 600k a year. That's where the money is going, they live a pretty good lifestyle, no worries of a layoff, paycut, or similar.
    What we pay our doctors is directly related to what they are paid in the US. If we don't come close, we lose them. I recall last year while skiing in Montana having a conversation with a medical group that was there for a retreat. The sales manager was telling me he was trying to poach doctors from a specific place in Calgary and was offering salaries of $600-800k, with signing bonuses that would make first year income over a million... and they had to relocate all expenses paid to Miami into company-paid executive housing.

    Our options are to try and compete, or get bottom-rung doctors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Our options are to try and compete, or get bottom-rung doctors.
    Or to explore using them more efficiently, using less specialists (a trend that has resulted in a massive cost increase, GP's are doing less and less), using more nurse practitioners, easing professional restrictions on immigration from countries where the medical system is as good as ours, etc. And I disagree all our doctors will take up and leave or would strike if they were asked to share in the same types of cuts the rest of us are facing in Alberta, some might go, but that happens no matter what the pay, there will always be somewhere that pays more. Raising the top tax rate likely hurt them more than any pay / bonus freeze.
    Last edited by moahunter; 19-05-2016 at 10:04 AM.

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    ^ Team-based clinics are the solution you're after.

    Instead of thousands of singular physician offices running under professional corporations with independent billing, we should establish community care clinics that have salaried GPs, NPs, specialist consultants, mental health practitioners etc.

    This system is so far more efficient that you can cut down the number of docs by a large proportion, and it also increases patient outcomes. The double benefit is that there is no need to worry about competing with the states under salary cuts. With a more efficient system you can afford to compete while also saving money.

    There is a reason that the best, most efficiently run private systems in the world use team-based clinics. They are cheaper and more effective.

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    We need more family Doctors here, then specialists imo.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Not every doctor is going to pick up lock stock and barrel, and head to the US - regardless what the pay is.

    There are also many foreign medical graduates in Canada that are more than happy to pick up the slack, in order to practice medicine in Canada rather than drive a cab or wait tables.

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    The thing that sticks in my craw is that the cost of medical training in Canada is so much lower than the U.S. and then doctors and nurses go there in chase of the almight buck.

    I am in favour of keeping tuition where it is but based on students signing an agreement that they will practice here for "X" number of years but should they choose to go elsewhere they are indebted to the University or College for the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars of educational subsidy they have enjoyed.

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    I really don't like the idea of turning post-secondary & beyond students into indentured servants. It seems very un-Canadian & counter to the spirit of affordable education.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I really don't like the idea of turning post-secondary & beyond students into indentured servants. It seems very un-Canadian & counter to the spirit of affordable education.
    Education is still affordable by keeping tuition the same but locking them in to practising here.

    My late mother was the beneficiary of a rural school board paying her tuition and room and board for what was known as a Temporary E Teaching Certificate (one year of training with about a dozen courses!) that saw her obliged to work in that school district for a minimum of 3 years I believe. Years later she eventually got her PhD and taught at the U of A.

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    Would your indentured servitude scheme apply to just doctors? How about engineers? Lawyers? Pharmacists? What about international students who pay far higher tuition & receive less subsidies? What about liberal arts degrees? What about people who decide the field isn't for them after graduation? What about those doctors interested in research & not practicing medicine with patients directly?

    I certainly understand your goal of keeping "invested" educational dollars in Canada, I just don't think chaining people to Canada is really the way to do it.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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