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Thread: Edmonton is best place for Millennials to get ahead

  1. #1

    Default Edmonton is best place for Millennials to get ahead

    Excuse the negative to positive flip on an article about how hard it is to get ahead in Vancouver, but I thought this was pretty cool (emphasis added):

    http://business.financialpost.com/pe...ving-aint-easy

    When it comes to discretionary income, millennials living in Vancouver fare far worse than their counterparts across the country.

    In fact, according to a new report by Vancity, a typical millennial couple ó those between the ages of 25 and 34 ó buying a home at an average price in Vancouver will have no discretionary income and will rack up debt of $2,745 per year after paying for essential expenses including taxes, health care, food, utilities, transit costs, clothing and housing.

    By comparison, Edmonton has the highest discretionary income in Canada for a typical millennial couple: $47,356.

  2. #2

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    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.
    Great advice to invest in a never ending property bubble that for sure will never level off. You got lucky and hit the timing right in Vancouver, maybe you were even smart and knew it would creep up, but let's not pretend you expected to double your money in a short term property investment.
    If you want to build a life that isn't based on getting lucky in the property market, and live a good balance between cost of living and opportunity I would say Edmonton remains near the top of the list though this latest downturn has normalized things quite a bit...ie endless promotions, unbridled growth and actually having to have reasonable and related experience have come back into play.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.
    Great advice to invest in a never ending property bubble that for sure will never level off. You got lucky and hit the timing right in Vancouver, maybe you were even smart and knew it would creep up, but let's not pretend you expected to double your money in a short term property investment.
    If you want to build a life that isn't based on getting lucky in the property market, and live a good balance between cost of living and opportunity I would say Edmonton remains near the top of the list though this latest downturn has normalized things quite a bit...ie endless promotions, unbridled growth and actually having to have reasonable and related experience have come back into play.
    I wasn't smart. I actually lost most of the upswing and insanity over the past couple of years, but there's no reason to assume things will cool down any time soon. I also didn't assume it would go up, it always goes up in Van. I bought in Nov. of 2015 and look how high it was already:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChEluzQWUAAyhdx.jpg:large

    All I'm saying is that if the blame for a lack of cash flow in Vancouver is high mortgage costs, then the opposite side of the coin should be looked at as well. Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.
    Great advice to invest in a never ending property bubble that for sure will never level off. You got lucky and hit the timing right in Vancouver, maybe you were even smart and knew it would creep up, but let's not pretend you expected to double your money in a short term property investment.
    If you want to build a life that isn't based on getting lucky in the property market, and live a good balance between cost of living and opportunity I would say Edmonton remains near the top of the list though this latest downturn has normalized things quite a bit...ie endless promotions, unbridled growth and actually having to have reasonable and related experience have come back into play.
    I wasn't smart. I actually lost most of the upswing and insanity over the past couple of years, but there's no reason to assume things will cool down any time soon. I also didn't assume it would go up, it always goes up in Van. I bought in Nov. of 2015 and look how high it was already:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChEluzQWUAAyhdx.jpg:large

    All I'm saying is that if the blame for a lack of cash flow in Vancouver is high mortgage costs, then the opposite side of the coin should be looked at as well. Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.
    Right and average house prices in Vancouver have no limit. The absurd escalation in housing costs this past year make it a great time to buy it, how could it stop?!
    None of what you bring up is fundamentally sound and there is potentially alot of risk for a young person or millennial trying to play that game.
    That's the whole point.

  6. #6

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    Isn't the BC government looking to find ways to cool prices off by limiting flipping and other measures because housing has become largely unaffordable to most in Vancouver?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Isn't the BC government looking to find ways to cool prices off by limiting flipping and other measures because housing has become largely unaffordable to most in Vancouver?
    Its pretty meaningless unless the rules are changed to prevent non-citizens / non-permanent residents, from purchasing real estate. I also think the BC government makes too much money off the transfer taxes to ever seriously try and cool it down now. Its tough for Millennials, the theory that buying a house and it will go up, might work, but a lot of people can't even buy a very basic property there now. Well, not all Millennials, they are the boomer generations children after all, so many in Vancouver will inherit a multi-million dollar home that their parents got for peanuts.
    Last edited by moahunter; 12-05-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.
    Nice, but you haven't actually made any money until you've sold your condo and paid off your debts. If your debt is in the form of a mortgage then there's usually a penalty for paying it off early. Also subtract from your "profit" any closing costs and capital gains tax. A small market correction could quickly make your return far less than you hope it to be.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Nice, but you haven't actually made any money until you've sold your condo and paid off your debts. If your debt is in the form of a mortgage then there's usually a penalty for paying it off early. Also subtract from your "profit" any closing costs and capital gains tax. A small market correction could quickly make your return far less than you hope it to be.
    All of this also applies to Alberta, except there's next to no chance of appreciation for the next decade or so & a large chance of there being a market correction that puts many underwater.
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    I find it interesting that the initial article focuses on discretionary income when millenials buy a home. What we are seeing at increasing rates, especially in cities like Vancouver, is that millenials are less and less interested in home ownership.

    They are foregoing the idea of buying a house in exchange for more freedom to move, and to live in areas that offer the amenities they want. Many millenials would rather live in a rented apartment right downtown in vancouver and have the option of packing everything up and leaving in a year if greener pastures arise elsewhere.

    Of course this changes when people have children, but the other trend is that millenials are less and less interested in that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.
    This is assuming the Edmontonian's discretionary income is spent frivolously and isn't invested in other investment vehicles. Investing that amount without dealing with compounding interest of an astronomical mortgage - you will still be further ahead in Edmonton. So in the same 3-5 year the range you stated just by just stuffing that discretionary income under the mattress is $142,666-$237,780.

    You're also forgetting the demographic of millennial that lives in Edmonton, has enough discretionary income to buy an investment property in other places as well, including in Vancouver. As an example you see tonnes of Alberta plates in Phoenix. Yet I think in 4 years of home ownership and spending time down there, I've seen only a handful of BC plates.

    The luxury to be able to choose to invest/save it or blow further solidifies my opinion that Vancouver is just a pretty prison with weather that is marginal at best.

  12. #12

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milenials to get ahead

    That bubble will pop and the more insane it gets at the end, the worse the crash will be. When it does we will probably hear the cries of anguish all the way across the Rockies. Yes, Virginia house prices can go down just as quickly as they go up - especially if they are seriously over inflated.

    They used to always call Vancouver la la land and now I understand why. People there are going la la la to drown out sound of the coming crash.

    If you look at the last 25 years, housing prices have actually increased considerably in Edmonton and in most other places in Canada too. However, not the quick money speculative type of increase like in Vancouver and more recently Toronto.

    Perhaps some will say this time will be different, that is also what they tend to say just before the crash, but I doubt it. History shows time and time again that things that go up too much will correct. Those that do not learn from or ignore history, will learn the hard way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.

  13. #13

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    Interesting and humorous discussion. Is this on simply buying property?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    That's true, but it's possible to get ahead in Vancouver through property ownership. I lived in Edmonton for 2 years and off and on in Fort Mac for another year. Made good money, tons of savings etc... Moved back to Vancouver at the end of last year and threw it all on a down payment for a condo. In half a year I've double the money I invested in appreciation alone. Plus, the condo is rented out for over 2 grand a month and I'm making cash on that as well.

    A young couple will never make any money in appreciation in Edmonton. So yes, disposable income is nill in Vancouver and the culprit is obvious. But even though real estate is eating people's savings, in the medium and long-term people can cash out and be far better off. That's how I'm gonna play this. I'll probably move back to Alberta in 5 years. Or sell the condo downtown and buy something in Burnaby.

    But yes, disposable income is high in Edmonton and I enjoyed the carefree attitude I had when it came to spending money up there.
    Nice, but you haven't actually made any money until you've sold your condo and paid off your debts. If your debt is in the form of a mortgage then there's usually a penalty for paying it off early. Also subtract from your "profit" any closing costs and capital gains tax. A small market correction could quickly make your return far less than you hope it to be.
    There's no reason to pay it off early and pay a penalty. Closing costs are negligible and capital gains tax will not be paid because it will be my principal residence before I sell it. I don't know why you assumed any of these things

    And why is real estate always going up in Vancouver? These are the reasons:

    1) Lack of available land
    2) Low interest rates
    3) Steady population increase
    4) A richer immigrant population compared to the rest of Canada, except Ontario (most of Vancouver's Asian immigrants are from China, Korea and Iran and they almost purely invest excess funds in real estate instead of the financial markets)
    5) Lowest unemployment rate in Canada
    6) Interest from foreign investors

    Out of all these, nothing will change in the foreseeable future. Canada's economy isn't too hot, so interest rates will stay put. Vancouver is blocked on 3 sides. The economy will keep on improving as Vancouver continues to strengthen its tech and finance industry (construction will always be big). Migrants will keep flowing in. Investors will keep investing.

    And say things slow down a little, so what? Last year detached homes went up 30+ percent!!! Anything from 5 to 30+ is the norm.

    And let's look at downtown condos:

    Last edited by Abii; 13-05-2016 at 12:01 AM.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.
    This is assuming the Edmontonian's discretionary income is spent frivolously and isn't invested in other investment vehicles. Investing that amount without dealing with compounding interest of an astronomical mortgage - you will still be further ahead in Edmonton. So in the same 3-5 year the range you stated just by just stuffing that discretionary income under the mattress is $142,666-$237,780.
    You're not making sense. What other investment vehicles? Mutual funds? Savings accounts giving 1% returns? A stock market that tanks every half an hour and grows a measly a few percentage points per year at best? A business that requires far more money than what the average person has?

    Let's break this down. I had 45k and I spent it on a condo that pays for itself (2k+ rent). There's no compound interest coming out of my pocket. Someone else is paying all that (the tenant). In fact, only half of the monthly mortgage payment is going towards rent, the other half is going in my pocket in the form of equity. Now let's get to appreciation. Look at the chart in the above post. In half a year my 45k has more than doubled in appreciation alone. If it goes up 10% a year (conservative estimate), by the time I sell it in 5 years... well you do the math. As for capital gains taxes, they won't be paid. Primary residence will be that condo in the last year of ownership.

    No other investment vehicle IN THIS COUNTRY will turn 45,000 into 250-350K in 5 years or less. And this is off of a condo! If I had 100k to invest, I would have bought a house and we'd be talking 700k+ in appreciation in the same time period (conservative est. btw).

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    You live with your renters? It looks like you are planning on evading taxes.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    You live with your renters? It looks like you are planning on evading taxes.
    It looks like you have comprehension issues. How the **** am I evading taxes?

    I'm going to university right now and b/c I have no other income except the rent I get from my tenants, I essentially pay very little at the end of the year or nothing. In the last year of ownership I will kick my tenants and go live in the condo for a year and that will cover the capital gains aspect of it. If you spend 5 minutes and read about capital gains tax on real estate, you'll see that you don't have to have lived in it for the entire duration for it to have been a primary residence.

    Even if I don't end up living in it and end up selling it as an investor. Capital gains tax is charged on half the gains and at the personal tax rate. Big whoop. Compared to the equity build up in the form of appreciation and rent income, it's still a massive win. No matter how you guys spin it, real estate ownership in Vancouver is one of the best ways to make money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.
    This is assuming the Edmontonian's discretionary income is spent frivolously and isn't invested in other investment vehicles. Investing that amount without dealing with compounding interest of an astronomical mortgage - you will still be further ahead in Edmonton. So in the same 3-5 year the range you stated just by just stuffing that discretionary income under the mattress is $142,666-$237,780.
    You're not making sense. What other investment vehicles? Mutual funds? Savings accounts giving 1% returns? A stock market that tanks every half an hour and grows a measly a few percentage points per year at best? A business that requires far more money than what the average person has?

    Let's break this down. I had 45k and I spent it on a condo that pays for itself (2k+ rent). There's no compound interest coming out of my pocket. Someone else is paying all that (the tenant). In fact, only half of the monthly mortgage payment is going towards rent, the other half is going in my pocket in the form of equity. Now let's get to appreciation. Look at the chart in the above post. In half a year my 45k has more than doubled in appreciation alone. If it goes up 10% a year (conservative estimate), by the time I sell it in 5 years... well you do the math. As for capital gains taxes, they won't be paid. Primary residence will be that condo in the last year of ownership.

    No other investment vehicle IN THIS COUNTRY will turn 45,000 into 250-350K in 5 years or less. And this is off of a condo! If I had 100k to invest, I would have bought a house and we'd be talking 700k+ in appreciation in the same time period (conservative est. btw).
    You said you won't be paying capital gains on your rental property. Four of the five years of appreciation should be taxable.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Yes, Edmonton living will provide a better cash flow, but the same condo that's eating up a person's monthly savings in Vancouver will be sold for a 200K profit in a 3-5 year period. It's not an ideal situation, but, again, the argument can't be made without looking at the other side of the coin.
    This is assuming the Edmontonian's discretionary income is spent frivolously and isn't invested in other investment vehicles. Investing that amount without dealing with compounding interest of an astronomical mortgage - you will still be further ahead in Edmonton. So in the same 3-5 year the range you stated just by just stuffing that discretionary income under the mattress is $142,666-$237,780.
    You're not making sense. What other investment vehicles? Mutual funds? Savings accounts giving 1% returns? A stock market that tanks every half an hour and grows a measly a few percentage points per year at best? A business that requires far more money than what the average person has?

    Let's break this down. I had 45k and I spent it on a condo that pays for itself (2k+ rent). There's no compound interest coming out of my pocket. Someone else is paying all that (the tenant). In fact, only half of the monthly mortgage payment is going towards rent, the other half is going in my pocket in the form of equity. Now let's get to appreciation. Look at the chart in the above post. In half a year my 45k has more than doubled in appreciation alone. If it goes up 10% a year (conservative estimate), by the time I sell it in 5 years... well you do the math. As for capital gains taxes, they won't be paid. Primary residence will be that condo in the last year of ownership.

    No other investment vehicle IN THIS COUNTRY will turn 45,000 into 250-350K in 5 years or less. And this is off of a condo! If I had 100k to invest, I would have bought a house and we'd be talking 700k+ in appreciation in the same time period (conservative est. btw).
    You said you won't be paying capital gains on your rental property. Four of the five years of appreciation should be taxable.
    Debateable. Say you only have one property and it's been partially rented throughout the term of ownership. There's no reason to pay capital gains tax on a property that's my principal residence by the time it's sold. How would they even calculate it? How can they divide the appreciation?

    But worst case scenario, say I have to pay capital gains on 4 years worth of appreciation. Here's how they calculate it: they take the entire capital gains amount, divide it by half and tax it at the individual's personal tax rate!! As a student, my tax rate would be very low and even the worst case scenario would be a great situation to be in.

    Real estate investment is the only way to make money in Canada for the average person and the best markets for it are Vancouver and Toronto. Financial markets are a joke unless you have 200K sitting around and you can throw it on safe investments like Microsoft and banking stocks.
    Last edited by Abii; 13-05-2016 at 12:58 AM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    You live with your renters? It looks like you are planning on evading taxes.
    It looks like you have comprehension issues. How the **** am I evading taxes?

    I'm going to university right now and b/c I have no other income except the rent I get from my tenants, I essentially pay very little at the end of the year or nothing. In the last year of ownership I will kick my tenants and go live in the condo for a year and that will cover the capital gains aspect of it. If you spend 5 minutes and read about capital gains tax on real estate, you'll see that you don't have to have lived in it for the entire duration for it to have been a primary residence.

    Even if I don't end up living in it and end up selling it as an investor. Capital gains tax is charged on half the gains and at the personal tax rate. Big whoop. Compared to the equity build up in the form of appreciation and rent income, it's still a massive win. No matter how you guys spin it, real estate ownership in Vancouver is one of the best ways to make money.
    Don't take your current gains for granted.

    The current housing bubble has been fueled by shadow flipping and assignment clauses by non-licensed "realtors" (or predatory licensed realtors). The process is designed to mislead home sellers and evade property transfer taxes. On May 16th, the province will close the loophole which will lead to paradigm shift in Vancouver real estate. Whether this impacts the real estate boom remains to be seen of course.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...ping-1.3575906
    Last edited by bolo; 13-05-2016 at 01:11 AM.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    You live with your renters? It looks like you are planning on evading taxes.
    It looks like you have comprehension issues. How the **** am I evading taxes?

    I'm going to university right now and b/c I have no other income except the rent I get from my tenants, I essentially pay very little at the end of the year or nothing. In the last year of ownership I will kick my tenants and go live in the condo for a year and that will cover the capital gains aspect of it. If you spend 5 minutes and read about capital gains tax on real estate, you'll see that you don't have to have lived in it for the entire duration for it to have been a primary residence.

    Even if I don't end up living in it and end up selling it as an investor. Capital gains tax is charged on half the gains and at the personal tax rate. Big whoop. Compared to the equity build up in the form of appreciation and rent income, it's still a massive win. No matter how you guys spin it, real estate ownership in Vancouver is one of the best ways to make money.
    Don't take your current gains for granted.

    The current housing bubble has been fueled by shadow flipping and assignment clauses by non-licensed "realtors" (or predatory licensed realtors). The process is designed to mislead home sellers and evade property transfer taxes. On May 16th, the province will close the loophole which will lead to paradigm shift in Vancouver real estate. Whether this impacts the real estate boom remains to be seen of course.

    [URL="http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/real-estate-shadow-flipping-1.3575906/[/URL]
    I do pay taxes for the rental income (although I use my student credits to bring it down to nil). As for the capital gains tax, again, the language is vague. It can go both ways. Even if it goes against me, on a 300K gain, they would only look at 260K (4 years) and then divide it in half (the tax is only calculated on 50% of the gain). On a 160K gain they'd have to calculate the tax on my personal tax rate, which will be extremely low as I'll be in law school during that time. Worst case scenario I'll pay 30k on a 300K appreciation. And we're not even calculating the equity gain provided by my tenants That means I'll get back the 30k and more.

    300K on a 42K investment. Two of my other friends, who are even younger than I am, are getting ahead the same way.

    There's no way this money can be made in the financial markets. No chance in hell.

  22. #22
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    That it was a good investment 5 years ago does not mean that it's a good investment now, and the article was about now. A condo that's doubled in value has much less potential upside, and is much harder to afford. Someone buying now would have significantly more mortgage so worse cash flow, and would see significantly smaller gains.

  23. #23

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    "Who'd want to invest in Vancouver & pay all those taxes on the profits from increased valuation? I'd much rather not invest that money & instead blow it on a big truck or a giant house on the wrong side of the Henday or overpriced hockey tickets to our joke of a team. That's the Alberta Advantage!"

    This thread is full of more sour grapes than a failed vineyard.
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    And why is real estate always going up in Vancouver? These are the reasons:

    ( ... multitudes of youthful exuberance deleted ...)
    Whenever there's a bubble people always come up with a list of reasons why it will never end. They were saying the same kind of things in Florida in 2006. Here's what happened:



    They also said the same thing in Toronto in 1988 and in Vancouver in 1980. They also said the same things about oil in Alberta in 2014. The truth is though it never lasts. Only a fool would look at a trend like this and decide it's a good time to buy in Vancouver.

  25. #25

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milennials to get ahead

    There is the old investment saying "buy low, sell high". Those promoting buying property in Vancouver now would seem to be advising exactly the opposite.

    It seems so common sense to buy low and sell high, but seems easier to persuade people to buy when prices are rising quickly and greed motivates. When prices have declined, people are fearful they will fall further and be most reluctant to buy. The people who could do the best in Vancouver real estate boom are those that bought right after it crashed in the early 1980's. Those that could get burned the worst when it declines again are those that have come late to this party.

    The pretty chart of Vancouver housing prices increasing exponentially reminds me of some stock investments like Bre-X or Nortel that people thought were "sure things" and would keep going up forever - until they crashed. Some of the best growth was right at the end, but if you couldn't see the end coming and many didn't because they were overcome with greed, then the huge gains quickly turned to losses.

    Normally housing prices are more stable, but when speculation and greed takes over then housing prices can behave like a speculative stock.

    In the end, the supply of land, the climate and other unique factors of the Vancouver area ("ie. the this is different argument) do not totally control the price of housing. If it becomes too unaffordable then the pool of buyers will eventually diminish, regardless how beautiful the location is. The laws of demand and supply may take some time to reassert themselves, but they eventually will. The more out of line prices become with affordability, the closer that is to happening.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Excuse the negative to positive flip on an article about how hard it is to get ahead in Vancouver, but I thought this was pretty cool (emphasis added):

    http://business.financialpost.com/pe...ving-aint-easy

    When it comes to discretionary income, millennials living in Vancouver fare far worse than their counterparts across the country.

    In fact, according to a new report by Vancity, a typical millennial couple ó those between the ages of 25 and 34 ó buying a home at an average price in Vancouver will have no discretionary income and will rack up debt of $2,745 per year after paying for essential expenses including taxes, health care, food, utilities, transit costs, clothing and housing.

    By comparison, Edmonton has the highest discretionary income in Canada for a typical millennial couple: $47,356.
    So a different reading of this article could be that Vancouver attracts the exceptional rather than the typical? Whereas Edmonton remains a magnet for the also-rans and good enoughs.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  27. #27

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milennials to get ahead

    I don't think Vancity actually said anything about the buyers in Vancouver being exceptional or the buyers in Edmonton being also rans, so those would soley be your words or interpretation of it.

    I suppose if you equate having more money with being exceptional then you could make that argument. However I don't think you need to have money to be exceptional or that having less money means you are a lesser person.

    There is a saying about fools and their money being easily parted and not everyone who is financially successful early in life makes good choices and some may regret some of their choices later in life when they end up not so well off. Buying ones home is a one of the biggest investments anyone can make, so I would advise to be very careful with that choice in particular.

    A 1,300 square foot two bedroom home is much the same where ever it is in Canada. I realize there is a lot of ego tied up in home value, but I don't think paying $1 million for that home and being able to carry a large mortgage on it is very wise - perhaps exceptional, but not necessarily in a good way.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I don't think Vancity actually said anything about the buyers in Vancouver being exceptional or the buyers in Edmonton being also rans, so those would soley be your words or interpretation of it.

    I suppose if you equate having more money with being exceptional then you could make that argument. However I don't think you need to have money to be exceptional or that having less money means you are a lesser person.

    There is a saying about fools and their money being easily parted and not everyone who is financially successful early in life makes good choices and some may regret some of their choices later in life when they end up not so well off. Buying ones home is a one of the biggest investments anyone can make, so I would advise to be very careful with that choice in particular.

    A 1,300 square foot two bedroom home is much the same where ever it is in Canada. I realize there is a lot of ego tied up in home value, but I don't think paying $1 million for that home and being able to carry a large mortgage on it is very wise - perhaps exceptional, but not necessarily in a good way.
    Structurally speaking you are absolutely correct. But as you and I both know, the three golden rules of property ownership are: Location, location, location.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    And why is real estate always going up in Vancouver? These are the reasons:

    ( ... multitudes of youthful exuberance deleted ...)
    Whenever there's a bubble people always come up with a list of reasons why it will never end. They were saying the same kind of things in Florida in 2006. Here's what happened:



    They also said the same thing in Toronto in 1988 and in Vancouver in 1980. They also said the same things about oil in Alberta in 2014. The truth is though it never lasts. Only a fool would look at a trend like this and decide it's a good time to buy in Vancouver.
    Your evidence doesn't match the argument you're putting forward. You're calling it a bubble and you're using the American subprime mortgage fiasco as evidence! That Miami crash in 2006 was a national crash. Why did you pick Miami out of the lot? How does it relate to Vancouver?

    Also, "they said the same thing about Toronto" is not evidence for "there's a bubble in Vancouver and it's about to burst." What does "they said the same thing about Toronto" even mean?

    You used an American subprime mortgage fiasco that led to The Great Recession to explain why housing prices in Vancouver will fall!!!!!!!!!

    Vancouver won't grow at this rate all the time. What happened in 2015-16 is a once in a decade thing (30+ % growth for detached), even in Vancouver. The rate of growth will obviously decline, but it will never be below inflation. If it goes up by double digit percentage points 6/10 years and only manages to grow at the rate of inflation for the other 4 years, it's still an amazing rate of growth. Financial markets would do great if they would meet inflation.

    It's very simple, people have to live somewhere. If Vancouver has ran out of land on 3 sides and the population is going to grow by 900K people, by 2030, it's only natural that house prices are going to increase. Add to that the low borrowing costs, the lowest unemployment rate in the country (for now), the strongest economy in the country (for now) and an immigrant population that's richer than the average immigrant in the rest of the country (who are also culturally more inclined to choose real estate over financial investments) and you have Vancouver.

    The cost of real estate and high rents (btw, right now the 4 lowest vacancy rates in the country are in Vancouver and BC) is causing discretionary income to be in the toilet. The best way to deal with this in the long-term (as an individual) is to invest in the market and build equity and get solid education in finance, a STEM field or law/med. I'd love to see Vancouver become a highly competitive city like New York one day. This is how you get there.
    Last edited by Abii; 13-05-2016 at 07:16 PM.

  30. #30

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milennials to get ahead

    Location, location, location is perhaps that is what some in Miami thought would insulate them too. I think they have a fairly nice location also, but evidently prices got too far ahead of reality there, eventually dropped a lot and have not fully recovered yet . However, I do agree all real estate markets are local, so location is an important factor. There are many other nice locations in the world, so of course Vancouver does not have a monopoly on this.

    One of the problems with real estate being a local market is I think sometimes a group think can easily set in. The supposed superiority of the location can become a rationalization for prices that are not rational. It is easier for outsiders to see the irrationality that those living there. However, the bubble usually doesn't burst until the people living there have their own Wile E Coyote moment and look down and see there is nothing supporting it any more.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Location, location, location is perhaps that is what some in Miami thought would insulate them too.
    Again, the crash happened as a result of the American subprime mortgage crisis. That crash happened in every other American city.

    You're ignoring the fact that the crash was as a result of a uniquely American problem: the subprime mortgage crisis. You're ignoring the fact that the crash wasn't unique to Miami and that it happened IN EVERY OTHER American city. You're using the subprime mortgage crisis to claim that Miami had a bubble and that because Miami had a bubble and the bubble burst, then so will Vancouver's supposed bubble (which you give no evidence for) and you use an American subprime crisis that happened a decade ago as the catalyst for this future crash!!

    Holy **** guys. logic eh?

  32. #32

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milenials to get ahead

    I disagree. First, actually there wasn't a crash in housing prices in all cities in the US. In general the markets that had bubbles or large increases declined the most. Those markets that did not have big increases in the years before, generally had much more modest declines and recovered better and faster.

    Second, the crash was not unique to the US. Housing prices in many other countries in the world declined in around 2008. The UK any many other countries had big declines then also. Fortunately, Canada did not experience the severity of this. Unfortunately that has led to an overconfidence here in Canada that housing prices can never go down in value significantly.

    Third, in history there have been many bubbles with inflated property values that have burst before and it does not always take a general financial crash like 2008 to precipitate this. Sometimes, nothing seemingly significant leads to the bubble bursting - the market just has a Wile E Coyote moment.

    The Miami chart is just an example of what can happen, to prove to those who say "housing prices never can decline" that yes they can go down just as dramatically as they go up too. We can debate the future, but I would avoid words like never.

  33. #33

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    I think expat is spot on, Vancouver attracts exceptional investors thinking about rocation, rocation, rocation.

  34. #34

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    Dave, nothing you're saying has any application to Vancouver's current situation. You're making VAST generalizations about cities from around the world without touching on Vancouver itself and then you say a crash can happen for no reason. You say that "sometimes, nothing seemingly significant leads to the bubble bursting." What a laughable sentence. If it causes a crash, then it is significant. Now here's my question to you, what will be that significant event for Vancouver? Of course there is going to be one in the future, but not in the short-term or even the medium-term. Interest rates won't go up in the immediate future. New land won't be created out of thin air. Rich immigrants from the Middle East and East Asia won't all of a sudden pick Winnipeg and Moncton as new destinations. The 900,000 people that are going to come here in the next 14 years won't suddenly all decide not to buy homes.

    Eventually there will be another downturn because of a global recession. The Great Recession only halted the growth of home prices in Vancouver for a year! I have the assessment figures for my parent's house in front of me. I specifically went and checked the assessment papers to see what happened during the recession. A global financial meltdown caused by an American subprime mortgage crisis (the same country that is our biggest trading partner on the planet) resulted in a measly 12 month halt to the growth!!!

    I watched the debate between the BC Minister of Finance (liberal) and some NDP guy (forgot who he was) and the Minister of Finance said they're trying to bring prices under control by drastically increasing supply. He said it's a supply issue and the liberal party WILL NOT halt the demand. They will try to lower the growth and that's indeed what's going to happen.

    To claim that Vancouver will crash, because Miami and X and Y all crashed is a ridiculous argument without any substance. There has to be a catalyst or a driver for the crash. It won't crash for no reason. Some of the same drivers that are pushing prices up have to be knocked out or new drivers that push prices down have to be introduced. Something has to happen. But yes, the rate of growth will of course slow down.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Dave, nothing you're saying has any application to Vancouver's current situation. You're making VAST generalizations about cities from around the world without touching on Vancouver itself and then you say a crash can happen for no reason. You say that "sometimes, nothing seemingly significant leads to the bubble bursting." What a laughable sentence. If it causes a crash, then it is significant. Now here's my question to you, what will be that significant event for Vancouver? Of course there is going to be one in the future, but not in the short-term or even the medium-term. Interest rates won't go up in the immediate future. New land won't be created out of thin air. Rich immigrants from the Middle East and East Asia won't all of a sudden pick Winnipeg and Moncton as new destinations. The 900,000 people that are going to come here in the next 14 years won't suddenly all decide not to buy homes.

    Eventually there will be another downturn because of a global recession. The Great Recession only halted the growth of home prices in Vancouver for a year! I have the assessment figures for my parent's house in front of me. I specifically went and checked the assessment papers to see what happened during the recession. A global financial meltdown caused by an American subprime mortgage crisis (the same country that is our biggest trading partner on the planet) resulted in a measly 12 month halt to the growth!!!

    I watched the debate between the BC Minister of Finance (liberal) and some NDP guy (forgot who he was) and the Minister of Finance said they're trying to bring prices under control by drastically increasing supply. He said it's a supply issue and the liberal party WILL NOT halt the demand. They will try to lower the growth and that's indeed what's going to happen.

    To claim that Vancouver will crash, because Miami and X and Y all crashed is a ridiculous argument without any substance. There has to be a catalyst or a driver for the crash. It won't crash for no reason. Some of the same drivers that are pushing prices up have to be knocked out or new drivers that push prices down have to be introduced. Something has to happen. But yes, the rate of growth will of course slow down.
    For someone with evidently so much personal investment in real estate you seem perilously ill-informed about market dynamics. For example, you are conflating the causes of the US housing market crash with the subsequent liquidity crisis. This has led you to the erroneous conclusion that a crash requires a singularly large event to act as a nidus for its inception. History proves this to be false: most crashes are not associated with a single event but rather a multitude of smaller things. Indeed, in some cases, a single seemingly trivial event is sufficient.

    The common thread with each previous correction--be they in real estate or equity markets or commodities or whatever--has been a disconnect between prices and true valuation. Such a disconnect is generated by euphoric speculation of the type you have exemplified so perfectly. Such a disconnect is clearly evident in the Vancouver housing market today. The fundamentals that you hint at--population growth, employment growth, etc--are not the current market drivers. In other words, the climb in prices is not being caused by a flood of immigrants rushing to revel in Vancouver's lovely winter weather.

    Sooner or later investors will realize they can get better value for money elsewhere. At that point any number of smaller events could align to cause a correction: a rising Canadian dollar, rising interest rates, government regulation, diminishing rental yields, a slowing Chinese economy, etc, etc. The magnitude of the correction and the ripple effects it will have across the broader economy depend upon the synergy those disparate events generate. Regardless, to believe that Vancouver is immune from such realities because of what happened to Mom's house in 2007 is indeed a very brave strategy to pursue.
    Last edited by OffWhyte; 13-05-2016 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Fixed typo

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Also, "they said the same thing about Toronto" is not evidence for "there's a bubble in Vancouver and it's about to burst." What does "they said the same thing about Toronto" even mean?
    You said (multiple times) that real estate will always go up in Vancouver (or some permutation thereof). That is exactly what was said in Toronto. Alas, it was not to be. Google Bay-Adelaide Centre if you wish.

  37. #37
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    Getting back to the original post, this is good advertising for Edmonton.
    And yes, Edmonton is a great city to move ahead in life.
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Again, the crash happened as a result of the American subprime mortgage crisis.
    Once more, for added emphasis, you have completely reversed cause and effect here. Viz., this Wikipedia article and references therein.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Location, location, location is perhaps that is what some in Miami thought would insulate them too. I think they have a fairly nice location also, but evidently prices got too far ahead of reality there, eventually dropped a lot and have not fully recovered yet . However, I do agree all real estate markets are local, so location is an important factor. There are many other nice locations in the world, so of course Vancouver does not have a monopoly on this.

    One of the problems with real estate being a local market
    is I think sometimes a group think can easily set in. The supposed superiority of the location can become a rationalization for prices that are not rational. It is easier for outsiders to see the irrationality that those living there. However, the bubble usually doesn't burst until the people living there have their own Wile E Coyote moment and look down and see there is nothing supporting it any more.
    Two points:

    1. Of course Vancouver doesn't have a monopoly, but it has joined that choice group of international locations that command a premium price, and are therefore somewhat removed from their national real estate markets. (So has Toronto to a certain degree.)

    2. Real estate is not a local market.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  40. #40

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    I don't know if we've passed Vancouver in everything millennials would be looking for, but I sure like being in the conversation. (imagine this conversation 20 years ago...)

    We have our advantages, and we're making up for lost time in most other regards, but lots of work to do. Retail and hospitality, plus sustainability still stand out, for example.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I find it interesting that the initial article focuses on discretionary income when millenials buy a home. What we are seeing at increasing rates, especially in cities like Vancouver, is that millenials are less and less interested in home ownership.

    They are foregoing the idea of buying a house in exchange for more freedom to move, and to live in areas that offer the amenities they want. Many millenials would rather live in a rented apartment right downtown in vancouver and have the option of packing everything up and leaving in a year if greener pastures arise elsewhere.

    Of course this changes when people have children, but the other trend is that millenials are less and less interested in that as well.
    I think some of this analysis of Milennials describes any generation of youth demographic more than it captures Milennials. Indeed such demographic characterizations can often be distortions.

    That said the reluctance to make major purchases such as Vehicles earlier in life does seem to set Milennials apart somewhat. Although I wonder as well whether addiction to tech gadgets takes any disposable income away thereby pre-empting ownership of vehicles. Used to be that a teens first interest was in purchasing a car. Now its purchasing every tech gadget ever invented.
    Last edited by Replacement; 14-05-2016 at 11:56 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  42. #42

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    Very relevant video to the conversation we were having earlier. The stats in the video can be used for both sides of the argument. You can use the stats to back up the bubble argument, but I see it as a demand driven market. The most insane stat IMO was the sales-to-active listings ratio for April, which was 63.3 per cent!! It needs to fall to 12% in order for prices to start falling.


  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Again, the crash happened as a result of the American subprime mortgage crisis.
    Once more, for added emphasis, you have completely reversed cause and effect here. Viz., this Wikipedia article and references therein.
    I haven't reversed anything. Those mortgages were given to people that would not get loans in Canada. They weren't credit worthy and they were given credit. These mortgages were extremely risky investments and once interest rates went up, people started defaulting. The subprime mortgage crisis was the cause of the crash.

    However, once interest rates began to rise and housing prices started to drop moderately in 2006Ė2007 in many parts of the U.S., borrowers were unable to refinance. Defaults and foreclosure activity increased dramatically as easy initial terms expired, home prices fell, and adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) interest rates reset higher.
    House prices only dropped MODERATELY at the start. The same thing happened in Canada. But because Canadians didn't start defaulting on mass, and because the subprime mortgage fiasco was unique to the US, the housing market didn't crash. If those mortgages had not been handed out, the crash would have never happened. The banks were also trading these risky mortgages, some of which were acquired with 0% down, between each other and this made it even worse.

    The subprime mortgage crisis WAS THE #1 cause of the crash. Those mortgages caused a slight slump, the same slump that happened in Canada, to turn into a massive crash of epic proportions.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Again, the crash happened as a result of the American subprime mortgage crisis.
    Once more, for added emphasis, you have completely reversed cause and effect here. Viz., this Wikipedia article and references therein.
    I haven't reversed anything. Those mortgages were given to people that would not get loans in Canada. They weren't credit worthy and they were given credit. These mortgages were extremely risky investments and once interest rates went up, people started defaulting. The subprime mortgage crisis was the cause of the crash.

    However, once interest rates began to rise and housing prices started to drop moderately in 2006Ė2007 in many parts of the U.S., borrowers were unable to refinance. Defaults and foreclosure activity increased dramatically as easy initial terms expired, home prices fell, and adjustable-rate mortgage (ARM) interest rates reset higher.
    House prices only dropped MODERATELY at the start. The same thing happened in Canada. But because Canadians didn't start defaulting on mass, and because the subprime mortgage fiasco was unique to the US, the housing market didn't crash. If those mortgages had not been handed out, the crash would have never happened. The banks were also trading these risky mortgages, some of which were acquired with 0% down, between each other and this made it even worse.

    The subprime mortgage crisis WAS THE #1 cause of the crash. Those mortgages caused a slight slump, the same slump that happened in Canada, to turn into a massive crash of epic proportions.
    Whilst I do not agree in general, I can agree that certainly the financial crisis made the housing crash deeper and more prolonged than it otherwise would have been. Have a nice night!

  45. #45

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    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    That said the reluctance to make major purchases such as Vehicles earlier in life does seem to set Milennials apart somewhat. Although I wonder as well whether addiction to tech gadgets takes any disposable income away thereby pre-empting ownership of vehicles. Used to be that a teens first interest was in purchasing a car. Now its purchasing every tech gadget ever invented.
    Great article from a few years ago in Macleans about this. The tech gadget has replaced the car and the "getting together". As long as there's the internet, they're all connected. And then, as needed, they get a ride to wherever from whoever.

    The last 10 years has seen a big change in youth 16 - 24 not acquiring drivers licenses. Also probably because the heli-parents continue to drive them around well into their 20's.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    Read this argument and tell me why it doesn't make sense: one of the advantages of being young is mobility. You're not stuck in one place because of long-term commitments. With that in mind, a young person can collect cash and "get ahead" in a place like Edmonton and then use that money for an investment in a place like Vancouver or Toronto. The two latter markets don't provide the same opportunities for collecting huge sums of cash. The former market doesn't provide the return on investment that Vancouver and Toronto provide.

    That's what I've been trying to say this whole thread. What's the reason that people are generally more broke in Vancouver? Real estate. But that same real estate purchase is providing crazy ROI. Other members believe this is a bubble and it's bound to burst, but I think it's going to cool down and that'll be that.

    So yes, for now, Edmonton has been the reason why I'm slightly ahead of my peers in university (financially). But in 5 years, Vancouver will be the reason why I'll be ahead of my Edmonton friends (financially) who decided to keep grinding it out on the oil patch. Both have their own advantage and a mobile millennial has the ability to take advantage of both these cities.
    Last edited by Abii; 15-05-2016 at 12:26 AM.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    That said the reluctance to make major purchases such as Vehicles earlier in life does seem to set Milennials apart somewhat. Although I wonder as well whether addiction to tech gadgets takes any disposable income away thereby pre-empting ownership of vehicles. Used to be that a teens first interest was in purchasing a car. Now its purchasing every tech gadget ever invented.
    Great article from a few years ago in Macleans about this. The tech gadget has replaced the car and the "getting together". As long as there's the internet, they're all connected. And then, as needed, they get a ride to wherever from whoever.

    The last 10 years has seen a big change in youth 16 - 24 not acquiring drivers licenses. Also probably because the heli-parents continue to drive them around well into their 20's.
    lol I only got my driver's license after I quit university in Vancouver and decided to fly to Alberta for an oil patch related career. I'd love to own a nice car one day, but I can't justify the cost of ownership in a place where I have great access to transportation (metro, skytrain, seabus etc...). It's not just the cost btw. Today I drove my mom to the airport and it took 1+ hour with average traffic. When I take the skytrain to the airport (from downtown) it takes 20 minutes.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    Read this argument and tell me why it doesn't make sense: one of the advantages of being young is mobility. You're not stuck in one place because of long-term commitments. With that in mind, a young person can collect cash and "get ahead" in a place like Edmonton and then use that money for an investment in a place like Vancouver or Toronto. The two latter markets don't provide the same opportunities for collecting huge sums of cash. The former market doesn't provide the return on investment that Vancouver and Toronto provide.

    That's what I've been trying to say this whole thread. What's the reason that people are generally more broke in Vancouver? Real estate. But that same real estate purchase is providing crazy ROI. Other members believe this is a bubble and it's bound to burst, but I think it's going to cool down and that'll be that.

    So yes, for now, Edmonton has been the reason why I'm slightly ahead of my peers in university (financially). But in 5 years, Vancouver will be the reason why I'll be ahead of my Edmonton friends (financially) who decided to keep grinding it out on the oil patch. Both have their own advantage and a mobile millennial has the ability to take advantage of both these cities.
    Your Edmonton friends work(ed) in the oilpatch?

    What are they, welders?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    Read this argument and tell me why it doesn't make sense: one of the advantages of being young is mobility. You're not stuck in one place because of long-term commitments. With that in mind, a young person can collect cash and "get ahead" in a place like Edmonton and then use that money for an investment in a place like Vancouver or Toronto. The two latter markets don't provide the same opportunities for collecting huge sums of cash. The former market doesn't provide the return on investment that Vancouver and Toronto provide.

    That's what I've been trying to say this whole thread. What's the reason that people are generally more broke in Vancouver? Real estate. But that same real estate purchase is providing crazy ROI. Other members believe this is a bubble and it's bound to burst, but I think it's going to cool down and that'll be that.

    So yes, for now, Edmonton has been the reason why I'm slightly ahead of my peers in university (financially). But in 5 years, Vancouver will be the reason why I'll be ahead of my Edmonton friends (financially) who decided to keep grinding it out on the oil patch. Both have their own advantage and a mobile millennial has the ability to take advantage of both these cities.
    Your Edmonton friends work(ed) in the oilpatch?

    What are they, welders?
    Oil patch related. We were all in inspection related trades and mostly worked in fab shops around the city (Sherwood Park, Fort Sask, Nisku) and a little up North (Fort Mac).

    Most of them still have work, but they're not as busy as before.

  51. #51

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    So, not technically in Edmonton.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    So, not technically in Edmonton.
    I was renting an apartment on Whyte for 2 years (99th street and 81st). One of those crummy looking rentals lol

    Our shop was in Sherwood Park (short drive). From there we'd drive to fab shops around the city. We got our hourly rate for driving so we didn't care. But yes, I was in Edmonton. My last 6 months in Alberta was in Fort Mac though.

  53. #53

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    ^ It seems you're comparing real estate in Vancouver to oilpatch in North America.

    Good luck with the real estate in Van, you're welcome for your step ahead, but it's a mostly invalid comparison.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    What's interesting is why didn't he stay...
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  55. #55

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    ^ or why I returned?

    Arbitrary. Personal. Anecdotal.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  56. #56

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    Each individual has a different situation, so no one size fit all solution. But what the OP got right, is that for those in early stages of their career, where one has a lower income and more costs (first car, home, first kids etc) Edmonton is a fantastic place to be. Better salaries, lower taxes,etc. If you are a wealthy individual, like this student, you might be willing to take the risk of investing in Vancouver real estate now. Otherwise, you need to think of your costs carefully. If you are not living in your property there (in which case you are paying mortgage) you will be paying rent to someone else, even though your property is generating a slight income at the moment. Your price appreciation is paper profit, until you sell no realized gain. At selling time, there is all sorts of taxes and costs, like realtor fees etc, that will eat into your profit. As soon as you sell, you need to consider living cost, are you going to pay rent? Are you going to buy again? If latter, you would find out buyer bidding is so tough (as not very many willing to sell, so within a day or two of listing a listed property is gone), you will end up buying something not much better than what you originally sold and in the process lock up your money in the new property too. BTW, there was a funny comment in the thread too, something like oh who wants to buy a house, vs a condo, given house needs maintenance. Well, sorry to wake you up, but your condo is the same. You just pay it to an outside corporation to do the maintenance. It is called condo fee. As others have pointed out, eventually ANY market will see a correction. So while your capital is at risk (the mantra of investing is return correspond risk, if a market is offering 20% annual return, it is because it has a much higher risk than another that offers 5%), you don't have any discretionary income to actually enjoy life. Anyways, that was a long winded way of saying, we all make choices and will face consequences of our choices. Make sure you understand your choices.

  57. #57

    Default Edmonton best place for Milennials to get ahead

    I agree everyone's circumstances are different. I think it makes perfect sense for someone who was from Vancouver and was happy there, but came to Alberta to take advantage of better job opportunities at the time, to go back there when they either had accumulated some financial resources or the economy here started to slow down. Not everyone who comes here for work will end up staying here, for a variety of reasons, which may includes that is where most of their family and friends are.

    I think we in Edmonton can learn much from Vancouver in making city that more friendly to people that don't want to drive every where. I think we are making progress, but much needs to be done. However, I think there are three main factors in much lower car use/ownership in Vancouver - accessibility, affordability and congestion. Only one of them - accessibility I see as a positive one. People drive more here in part because more people can afford vehicles and there is less congestion.

    As someone who lives in the Whyte Ave area, I take notice of the comment about the crummy looking rentals. It is an area with a lot of students and seniors, so there are a lot of rentals that fairly basic. However, there have also been several very nice condo buildings added to the area in recent years with some great new projects proposed, probably much nicer than one could get in Vancouver for the same price. I am sure that Vancouver has some areas too that are not as glamorous and fancy as the some of the areas downtown.

    I agree completely that where one chooses to live is often based on individual situations and no one size fits all. However, on the issue real estate prices and whether it is a good investment in certain cities now, I may have differing opinions that some.

  58. #58

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    Its somewhat ironic that a noted Vancouverite, living in the the land of 1M buck Crack Houses, East Vancouver, and such places as Surrey would come here to speak about "crummy looking rentals" near Whyte avenue.

    Can't be any agenda there at all..

    Lets just remember the Lower Mainland isn't just gleaming Coal harbor. It includes some of the worst, and hopeless, postal codes in all of Canada.


    Vancouver, a nice place to visit, but due to housing prices and job prospects I sure wouldn't want to live there.

    Oh, lets mention one of the largest amounts of homeless found anywhere in Canada.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Oh, lets mention one of the largest amounts of homeless found anywhere in Canada.
    Apologies that the data isn't more recent & isn't metro, but there's roughly just as many homeless people per capita in Edmonton as there is in Vancouver.

    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  60. #60

    Default Edmonton best place for Milennials to get ahead

    Neither Edmonton or Vancouver appear to be great places in dealing with homelessness. I suspect with the economic slow down here, one benefit is the tight supply of lower cost rental accommodation has eased somewhat. Hopefully the situation has improved here since that data.

    Interesting that Toronto has a much lower rate. Calgary and Red Deer seem to be doing poorly.

    The problem is likely much more noticeable in Vancouver as it is more concentrated in a smaller area. Everyone I know that I have visited in Vancouver has advised to avoid driving through that are, even though it is the most direct route to their downtown. I suspect this is in part due to concerns about safety, but probably also because it does not present the picture perfect image of Vancouver the people who live there seem so eager to convey.

  61. #61

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    ^they move them to East Village in Vancouver. Find a homeless person in Stanley Park, they put in the paddy wagon to make the area pretty again, them drop them off in the ghetto. Edmonton once tried that to move from Whyte Ave, and it didn't turn out too well, with every do-gooder group claiming police harassment. So instead, COE has been working hard to ghettoize by making certain locations more attractive for homeless (by putting all the social services there).

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Oh, lets mention one of the largest amounts of homeless found anywhere in Canada.
    Apologies that the data isn't more recent & isn't metro, but there's roughly just as many homeless people per capita in Edmonton as there is in Vancouver.

    With all due respect homeless counts are a product of the methodology in which they are counted and with this not being standardized across regions or even within region. From that table it indicates Vancouver has 300 unsheltered homeless. I must have met them all frequently. Do I believe that figure, no, not at all. There were several hundred uprooted from a camp city not all too long ago. Homeless counts are largely a product of how many people are involved doing the counting on the count night. With more people you get a higher count and more areas looked at.

    I think in any 1week visit to Vancouver you'll find far more people camped out on the street with sleeping bag at night then you'll find sleeping the streets of downtown Edmonton. Anecdotal, yes, but the difference is so immediately striking.

    Yet the information cited above would have us believe that Edmonton has 3X the amount of unsheltered homeless.

    There must be another category in Vancouver called can't afford housing. That number would be in the thousands. Those that go to temp abodes anywhere they can find it.

    btw A decade ago before the Olympics and the clean up attempts there were estimates of 8K homeless people in Vancouver.
    Last edited by Replacement; 16-05-2016 at 03:25 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I think in any 1week visit to Vancouver you'll find far more people camped out on the street with sleeping bag at night then you'll find sleeping the streets of downtown Edmonton. Anecdotal, yes, but the difference is so immediately striking.

    Yet the information cited above would have us believe that Edmonton has 3X the amount of unsheltered homeless.
    Have you seen the camps in the river valley? There's a reason they're not on the streets where they can get hassled by cops, passers by & their fellow downtrodden.

    (Gotta love how you provide a BS anecdotal claim & when presented with evidence to the contrary you double down on the anecdotes.)
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  64. #64

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    Just to turn this back on the topic, Edmonton is not the land of milk & honey for those just starting out.

    70% of renters in this income class in Edmonton pay more than 50% of
    their income on housing costs (including essential housing expenses such as rent and heating costs); other
    high ratios are 63% in Calgary, 59% in Vancouver and 56% in both Toronto and Halifax.



    I apologize for the poor quality of the text on the graph. It's taken from

    http://www.homelesshub.ca/sites/defa...s/SOHC2014.pdf
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  65. #65

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    Hey, Vancouver recently had a 10K fine for sleeping on public streets. You think that influences the official counts at all? They probably get moving at the slightest sign of authority. Ask yourself as well why that reactionary fine was put into place.

    Its absolutely ridiculous to posit that theres less homeless in Vancouver than Edmonton and if you wanna believe that go ahead.

    Vancouver more recently has largely been interested in desensitizing the alarming rep they had with homeless populations (again with estimates of 8K as little as a decade ago) and have no interest in real numbers getting out.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle18433137/

    "There are estimates that 8k people could be on the streets"
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  66. #66

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    That's an awesome 13 year old article you posted there Replacement. That's breaking news!

    The fact you present anecdotes as data points & refute actual data posted in the thread while simultaneously pulling up a decade-old+ article certainly doesn't make me want to continue this discussion. You've got your notions & will happily ignore anything that doesn't match your gut feelings.
    Last edited by noodle; 16-05-2016 at 03:37 PM.
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  67. #67

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    I don't really accept that measures of homelessness in March are equivalent to measures in October. It's a well known phenomenon that numerous homeless people "sell themselves for shelter" in the Winter, and come back out in Summer.

    They say "if you want to hide homelessness, count in March."

    Exactly the reason Homeward Trust refused to count this March for the Federal Government.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    That's an awesome 13 year old article you posted there Replacement. That's breaking news!

    The fact you present anecdotes as data points & refute actual data posted in the thread while simultaneously pulling up a decade-old+ article certainly doesn't make me want to continue this discussion. You've got your notions & will happily ignore anything that doesn't match your gut feelings.
    What exactly do you disagree with as far as what I have stated?

    Any homeless count, and those conducting them, will tell you that the exercise is fraught with methodological problems, implementation problems, and that the count is impacted by the number of people recruited to do the count and from a standardized point of view what they are actually counting. i.e. historically some counts count all homeless on the street. Some include all that are housed in homeless shelters, some include those housed in temp accommodation, transition housing, etc. Of course the count will also be dependent on total area covered. For instance you're citing River Valley in Edmonton. Try doing a count in Stanley Park at night in the absolute darkness there.

    In anycase stats that are so obviously unintuitive can be questioned. You may not agree, but I'm far from the first person who has questioned the Vancouver official homeless stats. This being one of the highest living cost cities in Canada and with meager job prospects and insane housing prices to match. Intuitively homelessness would be more of a problem there just based on those factors. Without getting into many other demographic factors.

    Next, I referenced the 8K figure from a decade ago because those people went somewhere. That stat brought about widespread initiatives on low cost housing, homeless housing etc and with some of that longterm, and with some of that no longer being counted in the homeless count. Any municipality can play with the numbers by instituting a specific social housing type, for instance semi-permanent (even fully subsidized) that doesn't end up getting counted.

    Also, heres a more recent citation on homelessness doubling in Vancouver. Which still vastly underestimates the extent of the homeless problem as youth homeless tend not to access services and shelters as much and are under represented in the counts, while making up a considerable amount of the typically homeless in Canada.

    http://www.metronews.ca/news/vancouv...s-in-2014.html
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-05-2016 at 09:34 AM.
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  69. #69
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    The graph in post 64 suggests to me that the residential rental pricing in Vancouver is completely misaligned with the residential purchasing costs.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I don't really accept that measures of homelessness in March are equivalent to measures in October. It's a well known phenomenon that numerous homeless people "sell themselves for shelter" in the Winter, and come back out in Summer.

    They say "if you want to hide homelessness, count in March."

    Exactly the reason Homeward Trust refused to count this March for the Federal Government.
    Keeping in mind that Vancouver NEVER experiences the climate extremes that result in people in the streets HAVING to seek shelter at any time of the year. For instance -30C conditions where sleeping outside is not even an option. Due to climate its far easier for denizens in Vancouver to escape detection and to not be known or counted. Shelter totals in Edmonton in mid winter give another picture of those that have been living on the streets and that don't have other options.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    The graph in post 64 suggests to me that the residential rental pricing in Vancouver is completely misaligned with the residential purchasing costs.
    If vacant units in Vancouver were pushed onto the market through a "vacancy tax", Vancouver would be a rather affordable place to live. Much more so than Edmonton. There are huge numbers of units sitting empty.

    More evidence that the populist anti-foreign buyer phenomenon is hopelessly misguided. In a global market like Vancouver people are best off transitioning to a lifestyle where you live in smaller units and rent them. The solution to affordability there is to make the sea of vacant residential square footage available to live in.

    Instead people seem to feel like they have the right to outright own a slice of land with a house on it. They are willing to risk capsizing their local economy in order to get it, too.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I don't really accept that measures of homelessness in March are equivalent to measures in October. It's a well known phenomenon that numerous homeless people "sell themselves for shelter" in the Winter, and come back out in Summer.

    They say "if you want to hide homelessness, count in March."

    Exactly the reason Homeward Trust refused to count this March for the Federal Government.
    Keeping in mind that Vancouver NEVER experiences the climate extremes that result in people in the streets HAVING to seek shelter at any time of the year. For instance -30C conditions where sleeping outside is not even an option. Due to climate its far easier for denizens in Vancouver to escape detection and to not be known or counted. Shelter totals in Edmonton in mid winter give another picture of those that have been living on the streets and that don't have other options.
    I would imagine constant rain for months on end is a heavy deterent to sleeping outside too.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  73. #73

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    ^ No end of dry places and vast majority of buildings in Van have front canopys, sheltered entranceways etc. Not to mention redwoods being a damn fine canopy if anybody needs to sleep in Stanley Park. Many more parkades as well in Vancouver.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  74. #74

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    What a load of bs about the homeless situation in Vancouver. The entire homeless population of Greater Van. is centered on a few blocks of East Hastings. Basically 99% of the city looks spotless. In Edmonton I had homeless people scavenging in my garbage every single day of the week (whyte Ave.). I witnessed multiple homeless vs cop fights in the downtown LIBRARY. Anybody that's been to the downtown library can testify to the fact that it's essentially a glorified homeless shelter. At any given time you have 10 people dozing off on the second floor, high as a kite. The entire downtown area is filled with homeless people. The River banks are full of homeless people. Chinatown is crawling with homeless people.

    Essentially from 50th street upwards you have homeless people everywhere. And Replacement is comparing that to a few blocks of East Hastings. Yes, those few blocks look like a war zone, but I'll rather have them concentrated in those few blocks. Vancouver is also famous for getting the homeless population of the rest of Canada. In the winter all the homeless people from the Prairies pack up and come here. They can get shelter here and even if they can't, it barely goes below zero. Look at the sheltered to unsheltered pop'n btw.


  75. #75

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    U mad bro?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  76. #76

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    You guys are funny.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    What a load of bs about the homeless situation in Vancouver. The entire homeless population of Greater Van. is centered on a few blocks of East Hastings. Basically 99% of the city looks spotless. In Edmonton I had homeless people scavenging in my garbage every single day of the week (whyte Ave.). I witnessed multiple homeless vs cop fights in the downtown LIBRARY. Anybody that's been to the downtown library can testify to the fact that it's essentially a glorified homeless shelter. At any given time you have 10 people dozing off on the second floor, high as a kite. The entire downtown area is filled with homeless people. The River banks are full of homeless people. Chinatown is crawling with homeless people.

    Essentially from 50th street upwards you have homeless people everywhere. And Replacement is comparing that to a few blocks of East Hastings. Yes, those few blocks look like a war zone, but I'll rather have them concentrated in those few blocks. Vancouver is also famous for getting the homeless population of the rest of Canada. In the winter all the homeless people from the Prairies pack up and come here. They can get shelter here and even if they can't, it barely goes below zero. Look at the sheltered to unsheltered pop'n btw.
    Yeah, but our arena is newer than yours.

  78. #78

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    Possibly a better source of homelessness statistics.

    http://homelesshub.ca/resource/which...capita-and-why

    On property price bubbles. We'll only really know in hindsight. However the fact that CMHC insures a huge dollar amount of Canadian mortgages, Canadians should be very concerned about what a property price collapse could do to them. Whether banks and other lenders under the current accepted and proven sustainable system (proven in more typical markets) are offloading onto taxpayers unacceptable risks is another issue.

  79. #79
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    No doubt the banks are encouraging CMHC insured mortgages.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abii View Post
    What a load of bs about the homeless situation in Vancouver. The entire homeless population of Greater Van. is centered on a few blocks of East Hastings. Basically 99% of the city looks spotless. In Edmonton I had homeless people scavenging in my garbage every single day of the week (whyte Ave.). I witnessed multiple homeless vs cop fights in the downtown LIBRARY. Anybody that's been to the downtown library can testify to the fact that it's essentially a glorified homeless shelter. At any given time you have 10 people dozing off on the second floor, high as a kite. The entire downtown area is filled with homeless people. The River banks are full of homeless people. Chinatown is crawling with homeless people.

    Essentially from 50th street upwards you have homeless people everywhere. And Replacement is comparing that to a few blocks of East Hastings. Yes, those few blocks look like a war zone, but I'll rather have them concentrated in those few blocks. Vancouver is also famous for getting the homeless population of the rest of Canada.
    With the bolded above I'll let the readers conclude what you're doing here.

    Btw Vancouver Chinatown has a homeless problem. Not to mention a pretty good segment of people roaming around there with obvious psychiatric difficulty.

    lol at your comment as well that Vancouvers ENTIRE homeless population is in East Hastings. What an absolutely ridiculous comment. I guess you never been to Granville Street at all. Or Vancouvers Chinatown. Or any of Gastown which ends up being over run as well with wanderers. Vancouvers improved somewhat but still lots of areas of the downtown where you have to jump a gauntlet of sidewalk denizens to get to your hotel.
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-05-2016 at 11:35 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  81. #81

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    Citations of homeless people victimized in beatings occurring in Vancouver areas where Abii maintains homeless populations don't exist. More shame for Vancouver;

    http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/02/10...handler-Abuse/

    Lets see, Granville Street, Stanley Park, West end.

    This one in Gastown.

    http://globalnews.ca/news/1665787/wa...-hair-on-fire/

    I only report these disturbing incidents as its one of the few bits of information that details WHERE the homeless are found in Vancouver albeit anybody that's spent even a week in Vancouver knows you can run into them all over. Only incidents seem to give specific locations. The surveys do not provide much in the way of geographical data other than where people are from, not in what location they were found.

    So in anycase not only do homeless people populate these areas, they are even targeted for abuse in these areas. By miscreants that typically go to these areas so that they can abuse homeless. For sure none of these pathetic perpetrators would be bringing this sordid abuse to the East Hastings area. probably be a fair fight there...

    Another article citing places where Abii maintains homeless are not found and "Vancouver is 99% spotless"

    http://www.straight.com/blogra/37259...messy-business
    Last edited by Replacement; 17-05-2016 at 11:59 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Just another lotusland fanboi with the classic "head up the arse", ala lower mainland style.

    This isn't supposed to be a pissing contest but ...

  83. #83

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    So unless one happens to be a homeless millenial and wants to discuss noodle's 4 years old and older statistics to death, I think this discussion ended pretty much here:

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    i.e., we all agree that Edmonton actually is the best place for millenials to get ahead.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    i.e., we all agree that Edmonton actually is the best place for millenials to get ahead.
    We all agree Edmonton (Alberta generally) has generally been easy pickens for any demographic wishing to build up a nest ege before buggering off to somewhere they actually want to be.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  85. #85

    Default Poor public transit and expensive housing hurts Vancouver


  86. #86

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milennials to get ahead

    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    i.e., we all agree that Edmonton actually is the best place for millenials to get ahead.
    We all agree Edmonton (Alberta generally) has generally been easy pickens for any demographic wishing to build up a nest ege before buggering off to somewhere they actually want to be.
    You know, the glass is not half empty. Actually a lot of the people that come here like it and stay too.

    I get a sense from the postings on this thread that the crankier ones go - maybe that's a good thing.

  87. #87

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    ^ Agreed, especially looking at it from a provincial POV I find quite a lot in Alberta, BC, that is interesting to explore and close enough to do that and get out on weekends etc. Not to mention Edmonton having a gorgeously preserved river valley/ravine system.

    If you like the 4 seasons here and the outdoors its a pretty good place.

    My perspective is I live here and visit other places.

    Finally, millennials as mentioned in the thread are more electronically connected anyway. One of the demographic dynamics is they interact less with the environment and physical world and more with tech and people. So place would seemingly matter less to them as long as its an urban place. Rural tends to be non starter for a lot of millennials. So as long as its a city it doesn't really matter which one, just that professionals, interesting others, eclectic range is found in a given urban environment. We're a strong post secondary city so that helps out as well. Edmonton doesn't really have a lot of a problem with professional drift/out migration either from what I sense more recently. I think Edmonton is retaining better.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    i.e., we all agree that Edmonton actually is the best place for millenials to get ahead.
    We all agree Edmonton (Alberta generally) has generally been easy pickens for any demographic wishing to build up a nest ege before buggering off to somewhere they actually want to be.
    Or staying where we want to be?

    Trying hard to understand your distinction between "build up a nest ege (sic)" and "get ahead", by the way.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    It is interesting that the most pro-Vancouver millenial in this discussion has said he spent time in Edmonton to get ahead.
    i.e., we all agree that Edmonton actually is the best place for millenials to get ahead.
    We all agree Edmonton (Alberta generally) has generally been easy pickens for any demographic wishing to build up a nest ege before buggering off to somewhere they actually want to be.
    You know, the glass is not half empty. Actually a lot of the people that come here like it and stay too.

    I get a sense from the postings on this thread that the crankier ones go - maybe that's a good thing.
    Crankier you say? Others may say discerning, ambitious, percipient accomplished... Potato, potahto, tomayto, tomahto.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  90. #90

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    I actually lived in Metro Vancouver for a couple years. Great shopping (my favourite in Canada), good restaurants (nowhere close to Toronto, but better than the Alberta cities), but a cultural wasteland. Was at the time only one professional theatre company, and since then has unbelievably gotten worse. I heard the Vancouver Radio Orchestra collapsed as well.

    Good place for the right people.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    I actually lived in Metro Vancouver for a couple years. Great shopping (my favourite in Canada), good restaurants (nowhere close to Toronto, but better than the Alberta cities), but a cultural wasteland. Was at the time only one professional theatre company, and since then has unbelievably gotten worse. I heard the Vancouver Radio Orchestra collapsed as well.

    Good place for the right people.
    Seeing this thread is about Millennials, the cultural landscape in Van in terms of a relevant young scene is up there with Toronto and Montreal. Fresh breaking music, and not a reliance on the Dad Rock and old faithfuls that predominate in Alberta.

    But as you say, each to their own.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  92. #92

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    ^ Fresh breaking music? What is that, code for "stuff going nowhere because nobody else wants it?" Vancouver, with two arenas, has half the arena concert ticket sales that Rexall Place has.

    Sorry, but Vancouver has nothing on Edmonton in any corner of the performance cube. But I'll be charitable and suggest that's because the kids can't afford to pay their rent, let alone have a good time out.

    I could suggest it's because they're as lifeless as their elders.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ Fresh breaking music? What is that, code for "stuff going nowhere because nobody else wants it?" Vancouver, with two arenas, has half the arena concert ticket sales that Rexall Place has.

    Sorry, but Vancouver has nothing on Edmonton in any corner of the performance cube. But I'll be charitable and suggest that's because the kids can't afford to pay their rent, let alone have a good time out.

    I could suggest it's because they're as lifeless as their elders.
    New, innovative, interesting, relevant... But I appreciate that means nothing to a guy who uses arena filling capacity as his benchmark for culture and creativity.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  94. #94

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    Ha.

    Name one of these "new innovative interesting relevant" acts in Vancouver that doesn't also tour Edmonton.

    (I'll help you answer because I know you can't: there isn't one.)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Ha.

    Name one of these "new innovative interesting relevant" acts in Vancouver that doesn't also tour Edmonton.

    (I'll help you answer because I know you can't: there isn't one.)
    Off the top of my head. I saw Olafur Arnalds at the Biltmore Cabaret last year, and I don`t believe he played Edmonton.

    But really I`m to old to count. Young people I work with wouldn`t move to Alberta for it`s cultural scene or generally any other reason for that matter. Different priorities I guess.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  96. #96

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    ^ how incredibly condescending of young people and telling of yourself.

    Vancouver has its advantages, but arts and entertainment are neither of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Young people I work with wouldn`t move to Alberta for it`s cultural scene
    People who know nothing of culture generally don't.

    The ones who did are already here (or in Toronto/New York/Montreal, etc...)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    ^ how incredibly condescending of young people and telling of yourself.

    Vancouver has its advantages, but arts and entertainment are neither of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Young people I work with wouldn`t move to Alberta for it`s cultural scene
    People who know nothing of culture generally don't.

    The ones who did are already here (or in Toronto/New York/Montreal, etc...)
    The or in that sentence is fairly crucial.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, itís not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  98. #98

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    ^ Not really. I think most cities would be proud to be in that group rather than with sources of artistic refugees like Vancouver or Calgary any day.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    But really I`m to old to count. Young people I work with wouldn`t move to Alberta for it`s cultural scene or generally any other reason for that matter. Different priorities I guess.
    In fairness, Edmonton has some decent clubs and dance hall parties, which will appeal to some, its a different scene though. Its like comparing LA to Houston, they both have great clubs, but the clubs are very different and appeal to different cultural groups.

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    But really I`m to old to count. Young people I work with wouldn`t move to Alberta for it`s cultural scene or generally any other reason for that matter. Different priorities I guess.
    In fairness, Edmonton has some decent clubs and dance hall parties, which will appeal to some, its a different scene though. Its like comparing LA to Houston, they both have great clubs, but the clubs are very different and appeal to different cultural groups.
    As an aside, when I was heavily immersed in the club scene in Edmonton it was well known that touring DJs & music acts would often charge +50% for an Edmonton show vs Calgary, primarily based on how terrible the audience/experience is in town. Otherwise it wasn't worth the time & effort to schlep up to Edmonton.

    This was almost 10 years ago now, but I can't see much having changed between now & then, but I'm also out of the loop more now.
    Giving less of a damn than everÖ Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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