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Thread: Article: Photo radar shadowing campaign. Cash Cow Extravaganza

  1. #1
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    Default Article: Photo radar shadowing campaign. Cash Cow Extravaganza

    Onward and upward

  2. #2

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    I can get behind the idea, at least for locations where the is a drop in the speed limit and the photo buggy sets up right there. If there's speeding in those locations then there needs to be better signage, including those radar signs (I love those).

    In general, though I protest the cash cow by driving close enough to the speed limit so I don't get a ticket. maybe a good complimentary/counterprotest would be to get people to slow down in other locations by holding up a "photo radar ahead" sign in a location where there is no photo radar.

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    Recently I was on a road trip on BC's coast and Vancouver Island, and I was shocked how much higher speed limits were there, both on rural highways and urban roads. For example, there are numerous roads right in Nanaimo that are little different from 170th street, with 80 km/h speed limits. In my opinion, most of the photo radar enforcement in Edmonton is not targeted at locations where there are high accident rates. They are targeted at areas where they will generate the most revenue.

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    I think another way to protest should be considered. I think it might be an offense.. to advertise that a photo radar is up ahead. Might be mischief or stunting .

  5. #5

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    I'd rather they start at the most lucrative spots so they can maximize economies of scale, maintaining profitability to reinvest into the expansion of the system. I'd rather a system that pays its way (and more) even if it's not maximally effective rather than a system that's incrementally more effective that requires top-ups or doesn't provide additional revenue for projects like the current system does. Now that costs are stabilizing, perhaps a better split can be found, but I can't fault them for striving for self-sufficiency,

    I'd also like them to increase the fines, especially for repeat offenders. Ratcheting rates based on time since your last infraction. There's a loud contingent of people who've got some sort of sick pride about not changing how they drive in the face of multiple infractions & I figure a harsher punishment might make them change their tune.

    (FWIW, I just got my first photo radar ticket in more than a decade. $109 for 11 over. It's not a large amount, a mild inconvenience in the grand scheme of things but I can think of an infinite amount of better ways to spend a Borden than giving it to the City of Edmonton.)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by piglet View Post
    I think another way to protest should be considered. I think it might be an offense.. to advertise that a photo radar is up ahead. Might be mischief or stunting .
    One of those two... other people have been charged in the past for similar actions.

    Spray-paint would take a lot less time.
    I feel in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Also to discuss such things be a primer to incite? Which can get ya in trouble as well :0
    Last edited by piglet; 16-08-2016 at 06:16 PM.

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    They've always got photo radar set up one way or the other on 112 ave at Borden park, despite traffic speeds that have fallen significantly. I typically drive very close to the limit there and i'm only occasionally passed, but they must be still making money...

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    ^ That is kind of my concern as well. I see them a lot as I come into Edmonton on overpasses on the Henday and that is definitely not a high collision zone. People do recognize that they are there and have slowed down, but they're always there every day. That must mean they are making significant money from the spots they choose. There is no real safety issues compared to areas like 91st Street which are now the zero pedestrian accident zones. So yes, I do find the administration and execution of the project very suspect when it comes to the stated goals of safety and reducing speed.

    One way to see just how much revenue they expect and are becoming dependent on is to simply look at how to restrict and/or eliminate photo radar. Where the howling commences is the real areas that are getting used to this drug.
    Onward and upward

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    I've never understood why automated enforcement being revenue positive is such a bad thing to so many people?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  11. #11

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    Is it really that hard to figure out why speeders dont like enforcement of any sort? Most if not all their arguments have flaws, and really just boil down to "I want to speed and not have to pay if I get caught".

    if speed limits are too low, their efforts would be better spent working to have those changed.

  12. #12

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    It would be great politics for one of our city councilors to start a process to raise some speed limits, publicly recognizing that some of our speed limits were based on a 10km/hr buffer that doesn't exist anymore. You could probably find 40-50km of roads where the limit could easily be raised without negative impacts.

    That sort of process might speed up the social acceptance of photo radar and low buffers over the speed limit, and lower speeds in neighbourhoods.

  13. #13

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    I drove to Vegas a month or so ago where speed limits are 140km an hour. I saw 2 accidents in both trips there and back. People know how to drive in the states.

    One thing I remember were the signs along Deerfoot in Calgary that tell slow drivers to stay right.... For some reason in Edmonton we can't have these signs along the henday or white mud.

    Our policies as well as our speed limits are a joke. Our city cpuncil and transportation department think you need slower speeds and more photo radar when in reality other cities and counties have zero issues with higher speeds.

    One thing I did notice in America were very heavy police presence on the main highways. Certain areas had lots of police pulling people over.

    I guess they havent figured out that photo radar makes our roads safer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I've never understood why automated enforcement being revenue positive is such a bad thing to so many people?

    I don't think it is that simple my friend. It is not that automated enforcement being cash flow positive is a bad thing, but it is disingenuous to use arguments on social good when the true rationale is revenue generation. Speed limits in Edmonton are artificially low on many roadways, and it is not surprising that that's where you see the majority of automated enforcement. To the Edmonton Police Service's credit, they do have staffed speed traps on areas where I do see a safety concern. For example, Groat Road often has staffed enforcement blitzes. However, as I said earlier, parked on top of the Henday is not something that is truly used for enforcement. The speed limit there has no absolute reason to drop to 100 km/h from a 110 km/h zone. The only reason is done so is to entrap users. Surprise surprise, photo radar trucks are there like flies to excrement.

    The Whitemud is another classic example of what you see on the Henday.

    You also see automated enforcement on 109th Street adjacent to St. Joseph's. While yes, you should not be speeding near a school, that should be staffed enforcement if safety is the goal. Entrapping people in a spot without immediate feedback is disingenuous.

    For those who say that people should lobby for higher speed limits, all you have to do is take a look at Scona Road - artificially reduced to 50 km/h after significant infrastructure was put in to isolate pedestrians and vehicles. Given the current bend of our Administration and Council, one pedestrian lobby group took designs that would allow faster speeds and had that scrapped. Surprise surprise, frequent automated enforcement. There are times where I do see staffed enforcement on the road, but the vast majority is a photo radar truck in the same spot.

    In short, if the city was open and honest about its intentions with photo radar, it could alleviate some of the concern. Just flat out say keep the speed limits low, and you're going to enforce them, and you okay that the revenue cow exists, then your golden. But hiding behind social good and safety when it is readily apparent that automated photo enforcement is being used to entrap drivers... Well that's not going to win you friends or public acceptance.

    The masses may be asses.... But sometimes the masses are right...
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    I drove to Vegas a month or so ago where speed limits are 140km an hour. I saw 2 accidents in both trips there and back. People know how to drive in the states.

    One thing I remember were the signs along Deerfoot in Calgary that tell slow drivers to stay right.... For some reason in Edmonton we can't have these signs along the henday or white mud.

    Our policies as well as our speed limits are a joke. Our city cpuncil and transportation department think you need slower speeds and more photo radar when in reality other cities and counties have zero issues with higher speeds.

    One thing I did notice in America were very heavy police presence on the main highways. Certain areas had lots of police pulling people over.

    I guess they havent figured out that photo radar makes our roads safer.
    When I lived back in the states I noticed the same thing. People can drive a lot better. Driving the New Jersey Turnpike, the Long Island Expressway, or many interstates I really did not see the same troubles that I see on the Henday. The incredible amount of staffed versus automated enforcement definitely was a clue. The Sheriff's and other local law enforcement agencies were out in droves.

    Another thing that came to mind is that if safety and driver education is really the key, the city of Edmonton and should take some of these incredibly insane ads on "store it, don't pour it" and go put that money from photo radar into PSA's on how to drive better. But then we all know automated enforcement is not about safety...
    Onward and upward

  16. #16

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    The money goes to the expansion of the system though. It's not a general revenue cash cow. Milking every drop out of people who flaunt or break traffic regulations is perfectly fine by me.

    Revenue generated by photo enforcement does NOT go into general revenue. Revenue from photo radar can only be spent on traffic safety programs, not on general City expenses.
    Revenue covers operating costs of automated enforcement including a base allocation to Edmonton Police Service. In 2015, Edmonton Police Service received $18 million from automated enforcement.

    • 15% of the total fine is given to Victims Services
    • 16.67% goes to the Alberta Government
    • The remaining fine balance goes to the Reserve Fund and is used to fund safety and community projects at Council’s direction
    • Any late payment penalty attached to the fine goes to the province (amount of $20 or 20%, whichever is greater)
    • Speed infractions follow the specified penalties as listed in the Alberta Traffic Safety Act
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  17. #17

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    It's simple. We have a civic body that if they cannot tax something they will ticket it.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  18. #18

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    ^^Henday is provincial, is it not? I'm pretty sure that you can't blame the city for that one, although it is one that should have the limit raised.

    I don't think any PSAs have significant impact. We do need much stricter licensing, though. There are lots of people who are driving but shouldn't be.

    ^^Scona road is a counter-example too. The redesign may have made it an easier place to accidentally speed, but it actually removed some separation between cars and pedestrians. There are good reasons not to have a higher speed limit there, especially at the top. Mostly it's a failure of design, not of speed limits. I understand that the speed limit wasn't lowered, it just wasn't raised.

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    However noodle, that logic does not address speed limits that are both prudent and are not ones intentionally designed to entrap users.

    I'd like to see what this "reserve fund" is actually funding. It seems pretty all encompassing and vague, especially when only 15% goes to Victims Services. Notice how they don't elaborate on that percentage number, even though it is easily figured out? Because putting that in writing would draw attention to the ~2/3rds of the revenue that is "community projects as Council's direction".
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    ^^Henday is provincial, is it not? I'm pretty sure that you can't blame the city for that one, although it is one that should have the limit raised.
    AHD is administered and policed by the CoE. The speed limit changes at the border of Edmonton. So..yes...yes I can...


    If it was provincial, automated enforcement would not be allowed.


    Note they never have the vans/trucks taking pictures of vehicles leaving Edmonton?
    Onward and upward

  21. #21

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    ^ I don't use henday too often, but was ticketed once by a sherrif based on Strathcona county for speeding (120, the speed of traffic) westbound within Edmonton. Now I'm even more confused.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    However noodle, that logic does not address speed limits that are both prudent and are not ones intentionally designed to entrap users.
    As soon as you start calling limits you don't agree with "entrapment" I lose any desire to continue the discussion, as you're ascribing coordinated nefarious intent by multiple departments/agents without any evidence. You've clearly got an emotional attachment to your side of the argument & are letting it fill in the gaps in knowledge or understanding. If you've got some smoking gun evidence of collusion between the numerous parties that would be required to entrap speeders I'd love to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I'd like to see what this "reserve fund" is actually funding. It seems pretty all encompassing and vague, especially when only 15% goes to Victims Services. Notice how they don't elaborate on that percentage number, even though it is easily figured out? Because putting that in writing would draw attention to the ~2/3rds of the revenue that is "community projects as Council's direction".
    Here you go:

    Some engineering improvements to traffic safety include installation of:

    • Protected-only left turn phases at the signalized intersection to reduce left-turn-across-path type collisions
    • Pedestrian signals and pedestrian amber flashers at pedestrian crossings to improve pedestrian safety
    • Driver-feedback signs to let drivers know if they are speeding
    • Retro-reflective tapes and additional traffic-signal fixtures to improve the signal-head visibility at signalized intersections

    Photo-enforcement revenue is also used for:

    • Redesigning of right-turn cut-offs at major intersections to reduce followed-too-close type crashes
    • Implementation of engineering improvements at schools to increase the safety of our children
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  23. #23

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    I get that our henday is provincial matter but I'd assume calgary's ring road and their deer foot are as well.... They both have signs saying slow cars stay right.

    Our city takes an archaic approach to speed. Their arguments are always the same and they refuse to change anything to help improve safety, why else would they use less speed limit signs? Why not add slower cars stay right on major arteries? Why not increase the speed limits in areas they know it's safe to do so?

    The drive to Las Vegas was the best drive I've ever had. 140km the entire way, drivers always pulling to the slow lane when going slower and lots and lots of actual police enforcement dealing with unsafe drivers.

    Why can cities in America drive safely at faster speeds? I know I'm wasting my breathe sharing my thoughts because the city will most likely lower all speed limits because speed kills.

  24. #24

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    The US has a 75% higher per-capita death rate from traffic-related accidents than we do. 10.6 vs 6 deaths per 100k.

    Sweden which has pervasive automated enforcement has a rate of 2.8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Is it really that hard to figure out why speeders dont like enforcement of any sort? Most if not all their arguments have flaws, and really just boil down to "I want to speed and not have to pay if I get caught".

    if speed limits are too low, their efforts would be better spent working to have those changed.
    Yes, but there is a big difference between ppl who are reckless and just bad drivers and those who are just a couple of kms over the limit or haven't slowed down sufficiently after a speed limit change. I'm the latter and I don't consider myself a speeder or a bad driver.

  26. #26

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    the following image shows a comparison to Ottawa, who has a similar population size with no photo radar whatsoever

    https://fairalbertaroads.ca/img/info...s-all-sign.jpg

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    Why not add slower cars stay right on major arteries?


    That only applies to highways or properly designed freeways. The only road that would apply in Edmonton is the Henday, and for most of the Whitemud (at Terwillegar there are left-side exit/entrances). Otherwise, even slow drivers need to turn left from time to time on arterials. It would be completely unenforceable and could well result in dangerous lane changes as a slow vehicle needs to weave across three lanes of traffic at the last second to make a turn. That makes zero sense.

  28. #28

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    It makes zero sense to add "zero sense" to your statement of reasoning. May I suggest you add "to me" to that so it reads: 'That makes zero sense to me'. It may make sense to someone else with different or broader knowledge and experience with "major" arterial roads.

    Moreover in your own statements you say that would apply to the Henday. So that leaves me confused over what "major" means and your "zero" position. In the end I'm left seeing this only as an attempt to denigrate the thinking of the other poster. Unless of course, you are talking about the drivers weaving across three lanes of traffic. That's probably a topic for a basic driver training thread on not making sudden unpredictable moves.
    Last edited by KC; 18-08-2016 at 09:44 AM.

  29. #29

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    The city doesn't care about safety, they care about getting as many people as they can. Photo radar on the henday bridges or major arteries in the city are pretty much guaranteed. I live near 2 schools that I drive by often, I've only ever seen a photo radar at one of those schools ONCE. My wife is a teacher (not one of those two) and she has never seen a photo radar near her school, ever. Don't anyone be fooled, it's about money, not safety. Mayor Iveson is a liar, or greatly uninformed.
    Last edited by alkeli; 13-01-2017 at 10:25 AM. Reason: spelling

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    The city doesn't care about safety, they care about getting as many people as they can. Photo radar on the henday bridges or major arteries in the city are pretty much guaranteed. I live near 2 schools that I drive by often, I've only ever seen a photo radar at one of those schools ONCE. My wife is a teacher (not one of those two) and she has never seen a photo radar near her school, ever. Don't anyone be fooled, it's about money, not safety. Mayor Iveson is a liar, or greatly uninformed.
    Don Iveson is in for a hurricane ...This coming election ! when his cash cow become election issue

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  32. #32

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    All of that money greedily vacuumed out of the pockets of honest hardworking Edmontonians tricked into speeding then used to fund traffic safety initiatives & the EPS! Oh the humanity!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    uh huh
    your an EVIL man Medwards , you bring bad karma ....;.

  34. #34

  35. #35

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    Speeding kills your pocket book - great video from BC about how this has nothing to do with safety:

    http://jalopnik.com/this-is-the-best...opnik_facebook

    Last edited by moahunter; 19-05-2017 at 07:59 AM.

  36. #36

    Default Photo Radar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Recently I was on a road trip on BC's coast and Vancouver Island, and I was shocked how much higher speed limits were there, both on rural highways and urban roads. For example, there are numerous roads right in Nanaimo that are little different from 170th street, with 80 km/h speed limits. In my opinion, most of the photo radar enforcement in Edmonton is not targeted at locations where there are high accident rates. They are targeted at areas where they will generate the most revenue.
    My concerns are that photo radar has not gone beyond its intended role of enforcing traffic safety and not act as a cash cow for municipalities, and we all have seen income to the city increase significantly.

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