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Thread: Polls has Iveson cruising to second term

  1. #101

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    I normally don't agree with Don, but in this case I do. The two projects (bridge rebuilt, and the downtown bike grid/lanes) are two completely separate projects. What do they expect Don to do? Come down and give them a hug?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    I really want to vote for Don, but total douchebag comment (yet again) by him in response to the realities facing independent business people (who he apparently has little use for):

    "This is a short-term construction issue," Iveson says of the bike lane. "Whether it's a bike lane or something else, it will pass."

    Really? Three years and still counting fat head:
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/politics/david-staples-bridge-bike-lane-brings-construction-hell-to-glenora-businesses

    Unforgivable. Maybe your time has passed Don.



    Yeah, by now *** nuts should know better than anyone that when it comes to the city, there is no such thing as a short term construction project.

  3. #103
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    He's not very liked outside of the downtown core. He'll win, because nobody else is running. Mike Nichols should of ran. Voter turn out will be very low.
    I wouldn't have voted for him again. But I don't have to worry about that anymore, or your taxes being raised!
    Taxes on condos are so high, its ridiculous!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
    I really want to vote for Don, but total douchebag comment (yet again) by him in response to the realities facing independent business people (who he apparently has little use for):

    "This is a short-term construction issue," Iveson says of the bike lane. "Whether it's a bike lane or something else, it will pass."

    Really? Three years and still counting fat head:
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/politics/david-staples-bridge-bike-lane-brings-construction-hell-to-glenora-businesses

    Unforgivable. Maybe your time has passed Don.
    Oh, it has. I'm waiting for people to tell him, he's the mayor for everyone in Edmonton! Not a select few.

  5. #105

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    My biggest issue with Don is that he has no ability to accept criticism for CoE actions or appreciate honest feedback about things that bother big chunks of the population. He seems to have an inability to objectively look at frustrations from others' point of view. The only real saving grace is that he appears honest and ethical, so at least it doesn't seem like he ignores criticism for evil purposes, but moreso because he's just kind of a little b-tch.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  6. #106

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    My local representation consists of a councillor who blocked me (no clue why & I can't really find out) & a mayor who mocked me.

    Municipal government is a ******* joke in this town.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    My biggest issue with Don is that he has no ability to accept criticism for CoE actions or appreciate honest feedback about things that bother big chunks of the population. He seems to have an inability to objectively look at frustrations from others' point of view. The only real saving grace is that he appears honest and ethical, so at least it doesn't seem like he ignores criticism for evil purposes, but moreso because he's just kind of a little b-tch.
    Yes, he's a little b! tch.lol
    So is where's the camera McKeen!

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    My local representation consists of a councillor who blocked me (no clue why & I can't really find out) & a mayor who mocked me.

    Municipal government is a ******* joke in this town.
    I've got Bev Esslinger and when I reach out to her it takes weeks to get responses that are only a few words long. Not a big fan. Kim Krushell was leagues better. It's too bad I had (and still have) a great job when she retired, that would have been the time to run.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  9. #109

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    I've got McKeen & it looks from a cursory glance at my interactions with him on Twitter he blocked me when I disagreed with his anti-pedway crusade.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    My local representation consists of a councillor who blocked me (no clue why & I can't really find out) & a mayor who mocked me.

    Municipal government is a ******* joke in this town.
    I've got Bev Esslinger and when I reach out to her it takes weeks to get responses that are only a few words long. Not a big fan. Kim Krushell was leagues better. It's too bad I had (and still have) a great job when she retired, that would have been the time to run.
    Kim made time, I liked that about her. McKeen thinks any questions put to him are an inconvenience

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    McKeen thinks any questions put to him are an inconvenience

    He certainly seeks out every news camera like a desperate media whore.

    Only to talk down to everybody as if only he has the right take on every issue and it's everybody else that is a *** nut.

  12. #112
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    I have Ben Henderson... he shows up at every public hearing in the community that I've ever been to, and answers emails quickly, and has the appropriate person at the city respond promptly. I definitely got lucky judging by the other comments here.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  13. #113

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    Yeah, when they split our Wards up I was sad to lose Ben to the other side of the river.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post

    He certainly seeks out every news camera like a desperate media whore.
    Hilarious how that's evaluated as either good or bad depending upon one's view of the politician in question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Only to talk down to everybody as if only he has the right take on every issue and it's everybody else that is a *** nut.
    Yeah, a lot of that going around. Wait, who are we talking about again?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    McKeen thinks any questions put to him are an inconvenience

    He certainly seeks out every news camera like a desperate media whore.

    Only to talk down to everybody as if only he has the right take on every issue and it's everybody else that is a *** nut.
    Yes, he sure does that. I cannot stand this bloated individual

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    I have Ben Henderson... he shows up at every public hearing in the community that I've ever been to, and answers emails quickly, and has the appropriate person at the city respond promptly. I definitely got lucky judging by the other comments here.

    He's great!

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    My biggest issue with Don is that he has no ability to accept criticism for CoE actions or appreciate honest feedback about things that bother big chunks of the population. He seems to have an inability to objectively look at frustrations from others' point of view. The only real saving grace is that he appears honest and ethical, so at least it doesn't seem like he ignores criticism for evil purposes, but moreso because he's just kind of a little b-tch.
    I agree mostly with your comment, although I might not put it as strongly. I am not sure if he realizes (or cares) how he comes across infuriates people, I think unnecessarily so. It's too bad, because other than that I think don't think he is a bad guy, as you said honest and ethical.

    There are a lot of frustrations not being handled well by the city and I wish there were some more serious candidates that would at least give the mayor and some like minded councilors a good scare or a run for their money. It might improve their listening skills and empathy, at least temporarily.

  18. #118

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    If credible people do not start stepping up for the mayors race we will be stuck with Iveson for another four years. Four more years of him finding ways to increase revenue by fleecing the taxpayers with petty by law tickets and a host of other dubious crapanakki. Four more years of half baked pet projects etc. and mediocre leadership.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I normally don't agree with Don, but in this case I do. The two projects (bridge rebuilt, and the downtown bike grid/lanes) are two completely separate projects. What do they expect Don to do? Come down and give them a hug?
    Yes, you're (and he) are technically correct.

    But it's his tin ear. Some businesses closed because of this fiasco, meaning some people lost their investments, others lost jobs. It could well be that others who have been impacted only stayed afloat by cutting back hours or staff.

    They deserve at least a modicum of empathy, an emotion that seems a mystery to Mayor Don.

    Is that reason enough to not vote for him? Probably not, but I can hold my nose while doing it.
    ... gobsmacked

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    If credible people do not start stepping up for the mayors race we will be stuck with Iveson for another four years. Four more years of him finding ways to increase revenue by fleecing the taxpayers with petty by law tickets and a host of other dubious crapanakki. Four more years of half baked pet projects etc. and mediocre leadership.
    Remember, Don merely attempts to gain consensus. If you're unhappy with what Don pushes, better get door knocking for a councilor that you believe will hold him to task. Don can't pass votes or direct administration alone.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    If credible people do not start stepping up for the mayors race we will be stuck with Iveson for another four years. Four more years of him finding ways to increase revenue by fleecing the taxpayers with petty by law tickets and a host of other dubious crapanakki. Four more years of half baked pet projects etc. and mediocre leadership.

    I asked Mike Nichols, he said he had too many things going on in his ward, but it would be a possibility next time. Four more years of Donnie..UGH!

  22. #122

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    Polls has Iveson cruising to second term:

    I hope he's cruising for a bruising.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  23. #123
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    I thought Don Koziak might put up a bit of a fight for Iveson, but wow, come out with policy ideas like this is a sure fire way to scuttle any chance you had.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-ban-1.4311761

    I don't know anyone, even smokers, who thinks that would be a good idea.

  24. #124

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    Wow, Don Koziak REALLY misses smoking sections in restaurants!

  25. #125
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    And I bet he wonders why he can't win an election. Any election.

  26. #126
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    Koziak himself keeps acknowledging that he has little chance of winning but is only running so that he can share ideas. Unfortunately most of his ideas are hilariously outdated. In any case, maybe he should be showing up at a city hall meetings to express his ideas instead of wasting the time of more serious candidates.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  27. #127
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    What a colossal mor0n.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  28. #128

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    In 2008 the Province banned smoking in all public spaces and workplaces. So he wants to change provincial law from the mayor's chair?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  29. #129
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    I have a couple of small concerns:

    (1) That we could elect someone very anti-LRT in a couple of the vacated wards.

    (2) That voters might vote Knack or Loken out.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Well Top_Dawg sees that the over the top political correctness is now even seeping into political debate.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.4321560

    No debating. ' We discourage personal attacks in the forum,' says moderator.


    What kind of a pussy forum is this ?




  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Well Top_Dawg sees that the over the top political correctness is now even seeping into political debate.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.4321560

    No debating. ' We discourage personal attacks in the forum,' says moderator.


    What kind of a pussy forum is this ?



    Poor Don LOL! I'm betting turnout is poor!

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Well Top_Dawg sees that the over the top political correctness is now even seeping into political debate.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.4321560

    No debating. ' We discourage personal attacks in the forum,' says moderator.


    What kind of a pussy forum is this ?



    While it can all be very entertaining when it’s not in our own backyard, I think the entire world is so very tired of all the bashing and baseless promises. I want more content, less crap. So, if I’m voting for someone, I want to know what they think they can and will try to do and could care less what their opinions are of their competitors. I have my own brain and don’t need theirs to tell me what to think.

    I don’t need more and more people trying to create negative spins about others while issuing shallow useless platitudes about themselves.

  33. #133

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    "Frost threw a fair amount of colour into the discussions with comments on issues like infill housing."I call it the sardine house," she said in reference to infill housing. "I don't approve of sardines."
    The majority of candidates said they would put a moratorium on lot splitting and infill. " - CBC News


    They like to talk about tiny houses but no one wants to talk about apartments and rezoning single-family house lots. Great bunch of candidates.

    "Instead of suggesting specific policies on ways to improve the city, the candidates spent most of their brief responses complaining about past decisions. "
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  34. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Well Top_Dawg sees that the over the top political correctness is now even seeping into political debate.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...eson-1.4321560

    No debating. ' We discourage personal attacks in the forum,' says moderator.


    What kind of a pussy forum is this ?



    While it can all be very entertaining when it’s not in our own backyard, I think the entire world is so very tired of all the bashing and baseless promises. I want more content, less crap. So, if I’m voting for someone, I want to know what they think they can and will try to do and could care less what their opinions are of their competitors. I have my own brain and don’t need theirs to tell me what to think.

    I don’t need more and more people trying to create negative spins about others while issuing shallow useless platitudes about themselves.
    Of course the moderators discourage personal attacks, but politics is passionate and competitive. If a candidate thinks there is an advantage to be gained by a personal attack they will do so. Of course there is risk, sometimes they backfire too and just make the attacker look petty and mean. However, sometimes they are more entertaining than discussions about dry policy and platitudes about things like "community engagement" that sometimes seem removed from peoples lives.

    If the world was truly tired of personal attacks the "just visiting" tag line wouldn't have worked in a previous Canadian election and the US would have elected a different President. Personally I am not a fan of them and they are not pretty, but sometimes they are effective and that's why they sometimes happen despite moderators everywhere "discouraging" them.

  35. #135
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    Its not personal when they talk about something relevant to people that live in this city..good lord, snowflakes are so petty!

  36. #136
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    https://twitter.com/mastermaq/status/915413554685140992

    "We must think, plan, and build like a city of a million people," says @doniveson in his closing remarks at #MayorForum #yegvote
    That's the money quote right there, which is why Don Iveson will continue to get my vote.
    I'm finding there's many candidates who think too small and provincial.
    See my signature.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^

    Top_Dawg thinks you're exactly right SDM.

    Sadly, it's only in this city of a million people that it takes three years to build a 600 foot span bridge.

    And where newly constructed rail transit lines travel at the speed of horse and buggy.


  38. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Its not personal when they talk about something relevant to people that live in this city..good lord, snowflakes are so petty!
    I think they're more-so trying to encourage a contest of platforms, plans, and ideas... and not just "you were there and we're still having this debate now." I think many people would like to see ideas brought forward rather than saying, don't vote for Person X because they were there. From this I'm seeing many candidates with wacked-out solutions and ideas from the 20th Century.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    https://twitter.com/mastermaq/status/915413554685140992

    "We must think, plan, and build like a city of a million people," says @doniveson in his closing remarks at #MayorForum #yegvote
    That's the money quote right there, which is why Don Iveson will continue to get my vote.
    I'm finding there's many candidates who think too small and provincial.
    See my signature.
    He seems to have some good vision, but I am not so sure about implementation. I also think sometimes he needs to listen more to others and not be quite as rigid in his approach.

    He is fairly young and the last term was his first, so I am hoping he has learned a lot and will grow from the experience and form some of the feedback he will get during the campaign. If I was was giving a report card, I think the comment might be "needs to improve", but especially given the candidates running against him, I would give him a pass but not a high grade.

  40. #140

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    I think he's rather fortunate that he's not facing any serious competition. If someone had stepped forward and promised to fix the Metro Line and the inevitable screw-ups coming down the pipe on the Valley Line, and build future lines right, they would have had my vote.

  41. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Its not personal when they talk about something relevant to people that live in this city..good lord, snowflakes are so petty!
    I think they're more-so trying to encourage a contest of platforms, plans, and ideas... and not just "you were there and we're still having this debate now." I think many people would like to see ideas brought forward rather than saying, don't vote for Person X because they were there. From this I'm seeing many candidates with wacked-out solutions and ideas from the 20th Century.
    Well, if you are an incumbent you have a lot of advantages, such as experience, name recognition and good knowledge of the issues, but the downside is you have be able to defend your record too. I don't think it is a personal attack to say you supported this or that, as long as the claim is fairly accurate. Elected officials do need to be accountable for their decisions and that is why we have elections. However, I am really not a fan of rehashing old debates from elections past that most people would now consider resolved.

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    I attended the debate last night hoping to find some alternative to Mr. Iveson. Some of the candidates had the odd good idea, but overall, they were a petty and bitter bunch. Unless one of them really ups their game in the next week or two, Don Iveson will return to the mayor's chair.
    He really did seem to be the best of the candidates.
    Non semper erit aestas

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    I don't care for mudslinging in politics.
    Don't tell me what the other guy did wrong - I know what he did wrong. Tell me what you are going to do right.
    Non semper erit aestas

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    The majority of candidates said they would put a moratorium on lot splitting and infill. " "
    Again, just small platitudes that don't amount to a vision. They're just one vote on council.
    Iveson is definitely the best of the bunch. I'm tired of people acting like we're Westlock. It's a major urban area. Time to start thinking like one. The Mayor provides vision and leadership, but only has one vote out of 13. In fact, I'm going to request a lawn sign right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwalker View Post
    I attended the debate last night hoping to find some alternative to Mr. Iveson. Some of the candidates had the odd good idea, but overall, they were a petty and bitter bunch. Unless one of them really ups their game in the next week or two, Don Iveson will return to the mayor's chair.
    He really did seem to be the best of the candidates.
    He wasn't going anywhere, he knows he has a second term. A third? No, but then people will be sick of him, and his tax hikes!

    Better candidates will come forward.

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwalker View Post
    I attended the debate last night hoping to find some alternative to Mr. Iveson. Some of the candidates had the odd good idea, but overall, they were a petty and bitter bunch. Unless one of them really ups their game in the next week or two, Don Iveson will return to the mayor's chair.
    He really did seem to be the best of the candidates.
    He wasn't going anywhere, he knows he has a second term. A third? No, but then people will be sick of him, and his tax hikes!

    Better candidates will come forward.
    Yes. The mayor commands all 'tax hikes'. Every election is solely about civic taxes. Nothing else.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Yes. The mayor commands all 'tax hikes'. Every election is solely about civic taxes. Nothing else.
    I don't know if that is the case in Edmonton, as I haven't seen a poll on it, but it seems to be the key issue in Calgary (Nenshi might be in trouble because of it). Given both cities are struggling in this economy, it wouldn't surprise me if it is the top issue in the 'chuck. When you are struggling to pay the bills month to month, every little penny matters:

    Last edited by moahunter; 04-10-2017 at 02:40 PM.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    "Frost threw a fair amount of colour into the discussions with comments on issues like infill housing."I call it the sardine house," she said in reference to infill housing. "I don't approve of sardines."
    The majority of candidates said they would put a moratorium on lot splitting and infill. " - CBC News


    They like to talk about tiny houses but no one wants to talk about apartments and rezoning single-family house lots. Great bunch of candidates.

    "Instead of suggesting specific policies on ways to improve the city, the candidates spent most of their brief responses complaining about past decisions. "

    https://twitter.com/MarcoLangzi/stat...59676812197888

    marcelo figueira‏ @MarcoLangzi
    Sure you want a moratorium on all infill? What else? #yegvote #yegcc
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  49. #149

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    ^Love it.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  50. #150

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    From an efficiency standpoint, re-zoning mature neighbourhood lots close to transit, arterials, and infill in general is good for services cost efficiency, is good to keep taxes lower and revenues per acre higher, and still allows the high percentage of single-family homes to exist in Edmonton, because the % of those homes to other forms is extraordinary. You can't have single-family homes for everyone, no congestion, roads to 2-car households, low taxes, and good efficient and broad services.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  51. #151

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    I'd rather pay more taxes to live in the sort of city I want to than keep going down the path we're on.
    Last edited by noodle; 04-10-2017 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Accidentally a word.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwalker View Post
    I attended the debate last night hoping to find some alternative to Mr. Iveson. Some of the candidates had the odd good idea, but overall, they were a petty and bitter bunch. Unless one of them really ups their game in the next week or two, Don Iveson will return to the mayor's chair.
    He really did seem to be the best of the candidates.
    He wasn't going anywhere, he knows he has a second term. A third? No, but then people will be sick of him, and his tax hikes!

    Better candidates will come forward.
    Yes. The mayor commands all 'tax hikes'. Every election is solely about civic taxes. Nothing else.
    The taxes downtown Edmonton are stupidly high, its a concern for many, it goes to pay for Dons pet projects. He's a epic fail!

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Yes. The mayor commands all 'tax hikes'. Every election is solely about civic taxes. Nothing else.
    I don't know if that is the case in Edmonton, as I haven't seen a poll on it, but it seems to be the key issue in Calgary (Nenshi might be in trouble because of it). Given both cities are struggling in this economy, it wouldn't surprise me if it is the top issue in the 'chuck. When you are struggling to pay the bills month to month, every little penny matters:


    Exactly! Nenshi didnt raise taxes this past year.. Iverson did, he does every year. I'm betting Nenshi won't get in again, hoorah for someone new!

  54. #154

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    A good leader doesn't just do what the electorate's emotions tell them to do. They respond in a well thought out manner that either explains why taxes are going up, offers new solutions, or takes the heat and does that their principles tell them to act. Taxes are going up because of the size of the City and the expanse of all the services, alongside the province's out-of-touch and 20th Century model of how our cities can impose taxes. The current mayor has been working on a City Charter to combat out rising taxes, and has been promoting transit, density, and higher costs to suburban developers for improvements later on. Keys to taxes or not just the level they are at, but all the other tools people refuse to see or talk about.

    Stuck in traffic and want lower taxes for your bungalow and an easier commute? We have a solution for that!
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Stuck in traffic and want lower taxes for your bungalow and an easier commute? We have a solution for that!
    Only 8% of people are worried about the commute per that poll.

    Maybe Iveson is safer because he hasn't done hardly anything since he has been Mayor - city is still developing the same way, sprawling out endlessly. He is just a yes man. Nenshi by contrast has upset a lot of people by restricting suburban growth (e.g. the Shane Homes battle), building all the bike lanes, some pretty terrible ART in the suburbs (even worse than TALUS balls), getting east village built (whereas quarters and Blatchford are still mostly empty in Edmonton), etc.
    Last edited by moahunter; 04-10-2017 at 04:05 PM.

  56. #156
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    If there's an anti-Iveson vote it's going to be split among 11 or 12 candidates.

    (I say "11 or 12" due to the uncertainty of the existence of Henry Mak)
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  57. #157

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    Does anyone really think property taxes will never go up? Or if they're "frozen" for 1 term, then what? Even if we up-zoned major areas in future TOD areas, for 4-storey apartments or townhomes/rowhomes, or mixed-use areas along major arterials... got steady investments on a percentage from the province for transit expansion, and even got a City Charter and got mew taxing powers of many kinds on underutilized or poorly maintain lots... will taxes on single-family homes stay low? Is that the goal? To what end? What candidate thinks we can maintain low property taxes and maintain/build all our roads and/or reduce infill?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  58. #158
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    If there's an anti-Iveson vote it's going to be split among 11 or 12 candidates.

    (I say "11 or 12" due to the uncertainty of the existence of Henry Mak)
    I still think voter turnout will be very low.

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