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Thread: 2017 Off Season Thread | Oilers

  1. #201

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    In retrospect the Oilers going on a bit of a run was critical regarding the McDAvid contract. If the team continued to suck here you would have to wonder about the want to remain here factor. McDavid, and family were initially seemingly not thrilled at the prospect. So its hard to measure if the home town discount will be huge.

    Next, the NHL wouldn't want the Oilers to have McDavid longterm anymore than they would want the Oilers to have Gretzky forever. This is a small market NHL city. Mcdavid is marketable product #2 in the NHL just short of Crosby and might pass him. If McDavid is the face of the NHL Edmonton is a sleepy backwater in which to have him. The NHL preference is McDavid plays in, or close to a huge market.

    I wonder whether its something more like 5yrs and then McDavid is gone to bigger pastures. History in effect repeating itself.
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  2. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    In retrospect the Oilers going on a bit of a run was critical regarding the McDAvid contract. If the team continued to suck here you would have to wonder about the want to remain here factor. McDavid, and family were initially seemingly not thrilled at the prospect. So its hard to measure if the home town discount will be huge.

    Next, the NHL wouldn't want the Oilers to have McDavid longterm anymore than they would want the Oilers to have Gretzky forever. This is a small market NHL city. Mcdavid is marketable product #2 in the NHL just short of Crosby and might pass him. If McDavid is the face of the NHL Edmonton is a sleepy backwater in which to have him. The NHL preference is McDavid plays in, or close to a huge market.

    I wonder whether its something more like 5yrs and then McDavid is gone to bigger pastures. History in effect repeating itself.
    No player in their right mind , being second in the world would want stay in Edmonton. Not when they could be playing somewhere world class , and not have to suffer these winters.

  3. #203

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    ^how is the winter, suffering? Plenty of sunshine, you are travelling half the time anyway. Its walking from one of Katz condos indoors to the arena, or driving in your suv from a heated park in your house to a heated park at the game. I think living in Vancouver or Toronto under constant cloud, would be way worse, or stuck inside in the summer because the humidity makes it unbearable outside like in Florida. No where is perfect, but a location where the fans are behind the team, the facilities are world class, and the team can create a dynasty - that's a pretty good place to be, maybe the best place to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    and not have to suffer these winters.
    Not everyone is as frail as you are. What is stopping you from picking up your purse, and leaving?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Unless there is another defence in the works, I'd give Russel two years at $4m. I wouldn't go longer than 2 years though, unless its a very cheap contract.
    Word is 4yrs at 4M per for Russell

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Unless there is another defence in the works, I'd give Russel two years at $4m. I wouldn't go longer than 2 years though, unless its a very cheap contract.
    Word is 4yrs at 4M per for Russell
    I sometimes think, that might be intentional messaging. It will probably be 4 years at 3, and then they can go, "at least it wasn't 4 years at 4...". Not sure - the worry is you end up with another Ference / Fayne type contract. On the other hand, unlike Ference and Fayne, he has proven himself as part of our D corps, another free agent could cost a lot more, and perform a lot worse.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-06-2017 at 11:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Ok I get the Eberle salary dump etc bla bla bla. I know its just business but I have some pause about this I just can't put my finger on.

    Has there ever been a player that has (WG?) won 3 trophy's in one night like last night?
    Carey Price won 4 a couple seasons ago - The Hart, Vezina, Ted Lindsay, and shared the Jennings with Crawford.

    And Guy Lafleur won 4 - the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe in 1977.
    Thanks, for that but nothing on McDavid's scale in 1977. Wow.

    Slightly off topic but I'm not getting any c2e subscriptions returned in my email, did I turn something off by accident?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Maybe you're confusing Ryan Strome with Dylan Strome, who played with McD in Erie (I think it's his brother). I did the same thing earlier.

    Ryan Strome is listed as a RW, though he can play some C.
    No, I knew who I was talking about. While he's played mostly RW on the Island, they're a team loaded with centers and he was a C in junior. Having a second right hand center is a big deal for important faceoffs etc. I don't know if the Oilers intend on using him on the wing or center, though.

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Ok I get the Eberle salary dump etc bla bla bla. I know its just business but I have some pause about this I just can't put my finger on.

    Has there ever been a player that has (WG?) won 3 trophy's in one night like last night?
    Carey Price won 4 a couple seasons ago - The Hart, Vezina, Ted Lindsay, and shared the Jennings with Crawford.

    And Guy Lafleur won 4 - the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe in 1977.
    Thanks, for that but nothing on McDavid's scale in 1977. Wow.
    Connor McDavid 2017



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    Sidney Crosby 2014



    Evgeni Malkin 2012

    Last edited by sonicboom; 23-06-2017 at 01:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Unless there is another defence in the works, I'd give Russel two years at $4m. I wouldn't go longer than 2 years though, unless its a very cheap contract.
    Word is 4yrs at 4M per for Russell
    I sometimes think, that might be intentional messaging. It will probably be 4 years at 3, and then they can go, "at least it wasn't 4 years at 4...". Not sure - the worry is you end up with another Ference / Fayne type contract. On the other hand, unlike Ference and Fayne, he has proven himself as part of our D corps, another free agent could cost a lot more, and perform a lot worse.
    4 years at 4M it is...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonicboom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Ok I get the Eberle salary dump etc bla bla bla. I know its just business but I have some pause about this I just can't put my finger on.

    Has there ever been a player that has (WG?) won 3 trophy's in one night like last night?
    Carey Price won 4 a couple seasons ago - The Hart, Vezina, Ted Lindsay, and shared the Jennings with Crawford.

    And Guy Lafleur won 4 - the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe in 1977.
    Thanks, for that but nothing on McDavid's scale in 1977. Wow.
    Connor McDavid 2017



    Patrick Kane 2016



    Sidney Crosby 2014



    Evgeni Malkin 2012

    Seems maybe not so rare

    Last edited by Jimbo; 23-06-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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    http://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/oilers-si...deal-1.3473646


    The Edmonton Oilers and defenceman Kris Russell agreed on a four-year, $16 million deal Friday.

    According to TSN’s Ryan Rishaug, Russell will make $5 million in the first year of the deal, $4.5 million in the second year, $4 million in the third year and $2.5 million in the final year. The deal includes a $2 million signing bonus in Year 1 and $1 million in Year 4.

    Rishaug also reported the defenceman has a modified no-trade clause in the last two years of the deal.
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    Seems there's been some "chatter" about offer sheeting Draisaitl. If I'm a rival GM, I might just offer Leon the moon so Chiarelli has to match.
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    Not sure how bringing back the same forward group minus Eberle, and the same d-corp minus Sekera is a receipe for progression or improvement next season. We will have to see if there are any shoes left to drop, with the Russell signing there is not much left to spend, particularly on the back end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Not sure how bringing back the same forward group minus Eberle, and the same d-corp minus Sekera is a receipe for progression or improvement next season. We will have to see if there are any shoes left to drop, with the Russell signing there is not much left to spend, particularly on the back end.
    Maybe Puljujaarvi steps up the NHL level and maybe Spencer Foo signs an entry level deal. Who knows about Strome? - he sure showed promise a few years ago, but fell out of favour.

    Hope Nurse continues to improve. He has the tools to be a #1 D in this league, but he has a way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Not sure how bringing back the same forward group minus Eberle, and the same d-corp minus Sekera is a receipe for progression or improvement next season. We will have to see if there are any shoes left to drop, with the Russell signing there is not much left to spend, particularly on the back end.
    The Oilers don't really have the cap space to be big game hunting in free agency or in the trade market, not with the Draisatl and McDavid extensions kicking in this year and next. And I would suspect Chiarelli wants to keep his powder dry in case they need to either make a move to shore up the D even further partway through the season (whether because guys can't step up to fill in for Sekera or because his return is delayed) and/or load up at the deadline if the team looks like it could go on a run again. Otherwise, yeah, it's mostly going to have to be internal development this year moving the team forward.

  17. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Seems there's been some "chatter" about offer sheeting Draisaitl. If I'm a rival GM, I might just offer Leon the moon so Chiarelli has to match.
    There is a risk though - the compensation gets quite horrific as the offer sheets go up. Nobody wants to give up first round picks anymore, definitely not four of them.

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    Unless Pete has another trade up his sleeve, I don't think the Oilers will be doing any mega-signings during Free Agent Frenzy. They may get some depth forwards to replace departing UFAs Hendricks and Desharnais, maybe another rightie D if Gryba doesn't come back, and replenish the farm team. They are in the running to sign Spencer Foo. A buyout of Pouliot or Fayne is always possible.
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  19. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Unless there is another defence in the works, I'd give Russel two years at $4m. I wouldn't go longer than 2 years though, unless its a very cheap contract.
    Word is 4yrs at 4M per for Russell
    I sometimes think, that might be intentional messaging. It will probably be 4 years at 3, and then they can go, "at least it wasn't 4 years at 4...". Not sure - the worry is you end up with another Ference / Fayne type contract. On the other hand, unlike Ference and Fayne, he has proven himself as part of our D corps, another free agent could cost a lot more, and perform a lot worse.
    I take it back - you were right Nobleea. I think its ok, but I expect a lots of "why the contract is bad", "why Russell sucks", articles from the analytics crowd now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Seems there's been some "chatter" about offer sheeting Draisaitl. If I'm a rival GM, I might just offer Leon the moon so Chiarelli has to match.
    There is a risk though - the compensation gets quite horrific as the offer sheets go up. Nobody wants to give up first round picks anymore, definitely not four of them.
    The compensation is pretty steep, but a team like Vegas, who already have lots of picks compiled, could easily survive and might have their #1C.

    The reason I suggested someone might want to submit a sheet would be to drive the price up when Chia has to pay him.

    It's happened before. But I don't think McPhee is a jerk, and I don't think anyone has it in for Chiarelli (unlike, say, Lowe).
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  21. #221

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    Glad Eberle is gone. He was invisible this post-season. We will never win with wimpy floaters collecting a completely unearned bloated salary like him in the line up. Strome has better playoff stats and doesn't shy away from physical play or standing up for his teammates.

  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Glad Eberle is gone. He was invisible this post-season. We will never win with wimpy floaters collecting a completely unearned bloated salary like him in the line up. Strome has better playoff stats and doesn't shy away from physical play or standing up for his teammates.
    Yeah, I got a lot of flak for my take on Eberle at hf but my chief problem with him is he doesn't accept the basic tenet of hockey, or pro hockey, that it is a physical contact sport. This is the most lilly livered player I've ever seen in an Oilers jersey and to the degree that it was hard to watch. Which was only emphasized as the team around him grew bigger. Most players at least grow some balls or act bigger when they now they have backup through the lineup. Even Nuge responded positively to that and upped his ugly at times. he at least got into some scrums, gave lumber for lumber and made sure to react and give, as well as get out there. That was encouraging.

    Eberle is just a figure skater playing pro hockey. Touch him, punch, him, flatten him, he won't do a thing, he won't ever do a thing. Definition of soft.

    Its going to be interesting to see how Eberle is pushed in a new environment as his commitment to hockey is unacceptable. Only the draft teams have this much patience. Pull the same half *** crap Eberle has been doing for years and he's going to be gone from the NHL. Could be a Europe player.
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    I haven't been the one dumping on Eberle. I have an Eberle jersey . The "book" on Eberle was that he was a guy who would come through in the clutch in big games. Even Snow commented that he was a big game scorer (to which everybody in Edmonton went "huh?"). Scoring that one huge goal with 5 seconds left at the World Juniors has carried a huge effect on his clutch reputation.

    It was a lot easier to be a "star player" on a team in near total disarray, where he'd never really have to play a single meaningful game in half a decade, and where he could concentrate mostly on padding his stats and filling his wallet.

    I'm not suggesting he's a lousy player, but I think the unspoken belief was that he was going to really shine if we could ever get into the playoffs. That's what he was being paid for.

    Anybody can have a bad playoff run, especially their first experience. But when you're being paid like a star who is expected to score in big games, to come up flat is beyond disappointing, especially when teammates are selling out on every shift, and you're gliding around the perimeter.

    We all thought he'd have at least one other gear, like a lot of other players. Maybe he even thought so. But you can't glide around the perimeter picking your spots in the playoffs. You have to battle to get inside with a lot more hacking, whacking, clutching, and grabbing, than during the regular season. And you're going to get hit sometimes to make a play.

    It's not like he was always matched up against top players, either. McDavid and Draisaitl got all that attention.

    He lost his confidence, which may have been misplaced in the first place. Instead of finding another gear, he dropped one.

    Talented, but you can't have guys like that on your team, even if they're twice as good as Eberle.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 23-06-2017 at 04:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The compensation is pretty steep, but a team like Vegas, who already have lots of picks compiled, could easily survive and might have their #1C.

    The reason I suggested someone might want to submit a sheet would be to drive the price up when Chia has to pay him.

    It's happened before. But I don't think McPhee is a jerk, and I don't think anyone has it in for Chiarelli (unlike, say, Lowe).
    I think the picks have to be the team's actual picks, not ones acquired through trades. Since LV is probably not going to be a playoff team for a few years, those are likely to all be high picks.

    I don't think an offer sheet will ever work on key players. It'll be effective on secondary players. Chia would match anything and the extra mil that one could reasonably expect wouldn't make a huge difference in the teams' cap situation. Besides, there's only so many GM's out there. They hold grudges and all have opinions on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The compensation is pretty steep, but a team like Vegas, who already have lots of picks compiled, could easily survive and might have their #1C.

    The reason I suggested someone might want to submit a sheet would be to drive the price up when Chia has to pay him.

    It's happened before. But I don't think McPhee is a jerk, and I don't think anyone has it in for Chiarelli (unlike, say, Lowe).
    I think the picks have to be the team's actual picks, not ones acquired through trades. Since LV is probably not going to be a playoff team for a few years, those are likely to all be high picks.

    I don't think an offer sheet will ever work on key players. It'll be effective on secondary players. Chia would match anything and the extra mil that one could reasonably expect wouldn't make a huge difference in the teams' cap situation. Besides, there's only so many GM's out there. They hold grudges and all have opinions on this.
    The picks for a lot of teams would be higher ones, but a bird in the hand, etc., ...

    They do hold grudges. That's why I mentioned Lowe, who offer sheeted Dustin Penner. Some people (Burke?) were not impressed. We have a history.

    I don't think McPhee is the type. Pretty well respected around the league. But even if they had to give up their own #1, they still have a lot of picks from side deals in the entry draft.

    And, frankly, if I'm McPhee, but I'm also a jerk, I shoot for offer sheeting McDavid, who would have a huge impact there as the face of a new franchise that will have to duke it out with NFL football in a huge new stadium built with public money.

    I think we're at the point where a million $ either way could make a big difference. Like the Blackhawks (again), who just had to trade Panarin (for Saad). It makes a difference when trying to resign a Kris Russell.
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    I like McD at $97 m for 8 yrs

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    Oilers draft Kailer Yamamoto from Spokane.
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    Oil draft Yamamoto. Good pick. Hopefully similar to Gaudreau.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sonicboom View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Ok I get the Eberle salary dump etc bla bla bla. I know its just business but I have some pause about this I just can't put my finger on.

    Has there ever been a player that has (WG?) won 3 trophy's in one night like last night?
    Carey Price won 4 a couple seasons ago - The Hart, Vezina, Ted Lindsay, and shared the Jennings with Crawford.

    And Guy Lafleur won 4 - the Hart, Ted Lindsay, Art Ross, and Conn Smythe in 1977.
    Thanks, for that but nothing on McDavid's scale in 1977. Wow.
    Connor McDavid 2017



    Patrick Kane 2016



    Sidney Crosby 2014



    Evgeni Malkin 2012

    Seems maybe not so rare

    Thanks Jimbo, that's what I was looking for.
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    I wonder if Peter Chiarelli is still fishing for a solid backup goaltender? The Oilers are playing with fire if they plan to start Cam Talbot for 73 games like this past season (not including playoffs). Is Laurent Brossoit capable of starting 20 games next season?

    Regarding the defencemen, losing Griffin Reinhart in the expansion draft is not fatal. Sure the Oilers gave up a 1st and 2nd Round pick to acquire him from NYI, but he was #8 on the defensive depth chart. Every NHL team had to lose a player anyway.... bye bye Reinhart. I'll rather have Edmonton retain Pitlick and Khaira.

    Also, I believe Ethan Bear (shoots R) will be a huge contributor for the Oilers in the coming years.

    Life is good!

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    I wonder if Peter Chiarelli is still fishing for a solid backup goaltender? The Oilers are playing with fire if they plan to start Cam Talbot for 73 games like this past season (not including playoffs). Is Laurent Brossoit capable of starting 20 games next season?

    Regarding the defencemen, losing Griffin Reinhart in the expansion draft is not fatal. Sure the Oilers gave up a 1st and 2nd Round pick to acquire him from NYI, but he was #8 on the defensive depth chart. Every NHL team had to lose a player anyway.... bye bye Reinhart. I'll rather have Edmonton retain Pitlick and Khaira.

    Also, I believe Ethan Bear (shoots R) will be a huge contributor for the Oilers in the coming years.

    Life is good!
    I think LB needs to play more to give Talbot some time to heal up. But Talbot sure seems to thrive on more work.

    At least it's not like the Flames, where they think Mike Smith is the answer to their goaltending problems. He hasn't been much good for a few years now. Of course playing in Arizona, where they were ditching hard, couldn't have been a lot of fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Oil draft Yamamoto. Good pick. Hopefully similar to Gaudreau.
    Great quote when asked why the Oilers should draft him "if you don't I will come back and haunt you "
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Oil draft Yamamoto. Good pick. Hopefully similar to Gaudreau.
    Great quote when asked why the Oilers should draft him "if you don't I will come back and haunt you "
    I saw that.

    My first though was what a ballsy thing to say to the person who may prove to be the most important in your career. Not a lot of young guys have that kind of poise, confidence, and sense of humour in that kind of situation.

    I really like this guy, and think he could be a great add.
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    Oil move up a couple spots to take goalie Stuart Skinner, at pick 78.

    Then take defenceman Dmitri Samorukov at 84.

    Then take 6'5" winger Ostap Safin at 115, and Kirill Maksimov at 146.
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    Flames acquire Hamonic from Islanders. Now have Brodie, Hamonic, Giordano, and Hamilton as their big 4, which looks pretty good for them.

    Can't help but wonder if the Oilers could have gotten Hamonic instead of Strome, and whether that might have been a better pick up.
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    Just armchair-GMing of course, but the Oilers probably passed on Hamonic for several reasons:

    1. Acquiring Hamonic would have cost the Oilers a lot more than just Eberle, a price they likely weren't willing to pay. The Isles were asking for two 1st rounders at one point.
    2. Oilers draft picks will likely be less valuable than Calgary's because they're projected to be a better team.
    3. Hamonic's salary, term and cap hit is higher than Strome; the primary reason for trading Eberle was to free up cap space for McDavid, Draisaitl and Russell.
    4. Hamonic was likely only a fallback option in case Russell wasn't coming back or was signed by Vegas during the expansion draft. And they'd much rather keep a guy who clicked with the rest of the team.
    5. Hamonic's injury history and his play last year are concerns.
    6. The Oilers have defensive depth now, especially with Benning and Nurse progressing along. If they add Hamonic then who loses ice time, especially once Sekera is back?
    7. It seems to be a buyer's market for defensemen now, especially with Vegas acquiring a glut of them and quite a few hitting the UFA market. If the Oilers need to shore up the D then they have other choices.
    8. The Oilers' RW depth is weak and even weaker without Eberle hence why they acquired Strome. They'd much rather have Draisaitl centering a 2nd line than playing RW with McDavid.
    9. Strome can also play C, and IMO you can't have too many C's!
    10. Strome is an RFA next season; if he doesn't pan out then the Oilers can either re-sign him on a cheaper salary, let him walk or flip him to another team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Flames acquire Hamonic from Islanders. Now have Brodie, Hamonic, Giordano, and Hamilton as their big 4, which looks pretty good for them.

    Can't help but wonder if the Oilers could have gotten Hamonic instead of Strome, and whether that might have been a better pick up.
    To Calgary:
    Hamonic
    4th Round pick in 2019 or 2020

    To Islanders:
    1st Round pick in 2018
    2nd Round pick in 2018

    Calgary paid a huge price to get Hamonic.

    Wouldn't it be something if the Flames miss making the playoffs next season and the Islanders will get their draft lottery pick?

    It's possible because Mike Smith at 35 years is on the downswing. I could see his days in Calgary being similar to Khabibulin's stint in Edmonton. The jury is still out on Dougie Hamilton. Is Mark Giordano going to have a bounce back year or has he lost a step?

    Trading Eberle for Strome allowed the Oilers to re-sign Kris Russell. Even though Hamonic is 4 years younger and making 250k less than Russell, the Oilers have positive familiarity with Russell. They know what they have in Russell, he knows the coaching system, and he pairs well with Sekera.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Flames acquire Hamonic from Islanders. Now have Brodie, Hamonic, Giordano, and Hamilton as their big 4, which looks pretty good for them.

    Can't help but wonder if the Oilers could have gotten Hamonic instead of Strome, and whether that might have been a better pick up.
    To Calgary:
    Hamonic
    4th Round pick in 2019 or 2020

    To Islanders:
    1st Round pick in 2018
    2nd Round pick in 2018

    Calgary paid a huge price to get Hamonic.

    Wouldn't it be something if the Flames miss making the playoffs next season and the Islanders will get their draft lottery pick?

    It's possible because Mike Smith at 35 years is on the downswing. I could see his days in Calgary being similar to Khabibulin's stint in Edmonton. The jury is still out on Dougie Hamilton. Is Mark Giordano going to have a bounce back year or has he lost a step?

    Trading Eberle for Strome allowed the Oilers to re-sign Kris Russell. Even though Hamonic is 4 years younger and making 250k less than Russell, the Oilers have positive familiarity with Russell. They know what they have in Russell, he knows the coaching system, and he pairs well with Sekera.
    The reason the Oilers traded Eberle for Strome was the pending big contracts going to Draisaitl and McDavid, and their effect on the cap. The Flames have their key players signed long term to reasonably affordable contracts. And they got a TON off the books with Wideman, Smid, and Engelland leaving, without losing key players.

    Not so huge a price when they get a proven player they can use vs a maybe well down the road. We know better than anyone even first picks (as opposed to first round) don't always pan out. Hamonic is a very solid D. There was nobody seemed like that available in this draft, which is always a bit of a crapshoot after the first few players.

    The jury's not out on Hamilton anymore. He had a bit of a rough start there, but now he's playing the way they hoped he would. Gio may have lost a step, but still a great player and leader. One of the most hockey smart guys in the league. 8th in Norris voting, and Hamilton was 9th. Hard to put too much faith in those votes though, because Schultz was 10th (PK Subban zero votes - not even a 5th on the card).

    The Flames had a brutal start last year, but did well as the year went on. Goaltending (and the worst line change in playoff history) killed them in the playoffs.

    Agree re: Smith. Don't see him as an improvement on Elliott. Goal is still their biggest question mark for me. Think they should have gone after Raanta instead. Smith's best years are well behind him. He was washed up years ago, but Arizona wasn't trying to win, so it was ok.

    I think the battle of Alberta just got a lot more interesting, and won't be surprised if it's tight between the two teams this season.

    Arizona got a lot better too. Still not there. The Oilers, maybe, stay even, but it seems likely the players they have could improve, and their confidence has to be high after the playoff run. Canucks in disarray. San Jose and Anaheim aren't getting any better as I see it, and they could drop.

    LA is hard to handicap. Lost Brayden McNabb to the entry draft, and bought out injured Matt Greene. They definitely won the draft getting Gabe Vilardi at #11, but that won't have an immediate effect. Having Quick all season would help. Kopitar needs to do a lot more than he did last season.

    I won't be surprised to see the Flames and Oilers at the top of their division next year.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 24-06-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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    ^ I think it is very scary for a team to trade a 1st Round pick when they don't know where they are going to finish in the standings. Unless it is an elite team like Pittsburgh, Washington, or Chicago, giving up a 1st rounder can bite you in the butt.

    Two seasons ago, LA and Dallas looked to be contending teams for the coming years. What happened to them this past season? No playoffs!

    Calgary should be a team that is trending up but let's not forget they were a wildcard team this spring (don't bring up Nashville because they underachieved in the regular season). If Winnipeg and Dallas gets their act together Calgary could very well be out of the playoffs.

    Perhaps Brian Burke is whispering in Brad Treliving's ear. It was Burke who acquired Phil Kessel from Boston for two 1st Round picks. How did that go?

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    Nail Yakupov, 1st overall.

    How'd that work out?
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    Ya, ya ,ya. He is a bust.

    The Oilers should of traded their 1st Round pick to San Jose for Jason Demers

    Except do it in the summer prior to the 2011-2012 NHL season. Then 9 months later we find out the Oilers finished 2nd last overall, win the draft lottery to get the 1st overall pick, that gives San Jose the rights to draft Nail Yakupov at #1 in the 2012 draft.

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    You're missing the point entirely.

    It's not that the Oilers screwed up with Yakupov. He was the general consensus first pick, and most teams would have taken him.

    It's that the draft is a crapshoot, even in the first round, even with the first pick, and I'd rather have a proven guy than a maybe down the road.

    You have to give something to get something, and they got something they felt they needed, now. Still don't think Hamonic is as good as Russell, but then I've been a fan of Russell for years.
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  43. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    ^ I think it is very scary for a team to trade a 1st Round pick when they don't know where they are going to finish in the standings. Unless it is an elite team like Pittsburgh, Washington, or Chicago, giving up a 1st rounder can bite you in the butt.

    Two seasons ago, LA and Dallas looked to be contending teams for the coming years. What happened to them this past season? No playoffs!

    Calgary should be a team that is trending up but let's not forget they were a wildcard team this spring (don't bring up Nashville because they underachieved in the regular season). If Winnipeg and Dallas gets their act together Calgary could very well be out of the playoffs.

    Perhaps Brian Burke is whispering in Brad Treliving's ear. It was Burke who acquired Phil Kessel from Boston for two 1st Round picks. How did that go?
    The reality is Hamonic is a good enough player to use up a first pick.

    Winnipeg? haha, one of the worst teams in the conference and I would never bet anything on that club.

    LA? How would most clubs be without their allstar goalie almost all season? They had AHL level goaltending most of the season.

    Using Kessel is a strange example as he's turned into a pretty clutch player that has helped the Pens to two SC's. So the type of player worth going after.

    In a capped league good players are increasingly available as teams have to pare roster and meet cap. it isn't like the past where teams could just stockpile an allstar cast and hold onto them indefinitely. Theres lots of players that move, and are good additions to the lineup, that a team doesn't have to draft. Flames will do OK with a solid D, and now better goaltending. They also specifically got Smith and Hamonic due to Edmonton, and in theire market HAVING to be able to at least play in the same rink as Edmonton. Calgary is a different, and less patient City than Edmonton. You can't just suck in Calgary and accrue draft picks. You have to be able to compete every year. The market in Calgary doesn't support a loser pro club. The Flames don't have that luxury of patience from fans like the Oilers do. The Flames lost all 4 games against Edmonton. That management team knows that can't happen again.
    Last edited by Replacement; 25-06-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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  44. #244

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    Now for the next 2 years Calgary only has one 3rd round pick, and zero 1st or 2nd round picks.

    I think they gave up a lot just to get Hamonic and that 35 year old goalie (who is no better than what they had last year).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Now for the next 2 years Calgary only has one 3rd round pick, and zero 1st or 2nd round picks.

    I think they gave up a lot just to get Hamonic and that 35 year old goalie (who is no better than what they had last year).
    They did give up a lot, though less than the Islanders were reportedly asking. The Flames have a very young team, not counting the goalie. They don't really need any more prospects as much as they need players who can step in and play, especially at D, because they lost 3 guys from last year.

    Now they have a good lefty-righty set up.

    A lot can shake down over the next two years, with trade deadline deals, etc. Teams are trading picks more than ever in the past. I'd rather have a sure thing than a prospect, generally, especially when you have no idea who that prospect will be.

    A bird in the hand vs two in the bush.

    Bottom line - the Flames got better. I don't think Hamonic is the guy that will change all their fortunes (and I hope they don't), but he's a solid 2nd pairing D on a (relative) value contract, which will help them sign guys like Bennett.

    I agree about Smith. At this stage I don't think he's an improvement on Elliott. Not sure he's much better than Chad Johnson. But I'll bet he's an improvement on Elliott's play last season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...
    LA? How would most clubs be without their allstar goalie almost all season? They had AHL level goaltending most of the season.
    Without Talbot the Oilers wouldn't have made the playoffs last year either. Quick is a huge part of the team in LA, even more than Talbot in Edmonton.

    I think I read most teams average about 13 back to backs through the season. That's when you usually play your backup.

    The Oilers catch a break because they only play 11 back to backs next year (and 10 afternoon games). But that's still 22 points, and you need a decent back up goalie.
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    Oil sign Kassian to a 3 year deal for $5.85 million ($1.95 million AAV).

  48. #248
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    ^ I approve of the Zack Attack staying on
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    Yakupov play very well in junior hockey with Sarnia Sting of OHL but he couldn't do well in NHL in some way. it is the same idea with Tim Tebow, he's good in College but couldn't play good in NFL.

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  50. #250

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    Poor Yakupov, lets stop beating this horse, whe we talkin bout Yakupov?

    jk aside the Blues never even gave Yak a sniff.

    MPS is the definition of useless and a player that was shy of physical hockey and soft as butter. Blues have bent over backwards giving him chance after chance.

    Anyway I hope Yak finds a decent home and can get some NHL toi. Not sure if he's blacklisted though because of what happened in Edmonton.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-06-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  51. #251

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    ^why would he be blacklisted? That's just silly, if he was a performer, we would be picked up in an instant. The reality is, he doesn't have the hockey brain to play an even vaguely responsible NHL game, and his stats reflect that. I hope he does well in the KHL, that's likely the best place for him.

  52. #252

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    Did you see his toi and use in STL? Hows he supposed to produce playing limited minutes with plumbers. Funny thing is early in the year he had Bergeron and that was going well. But then he got HS'ed for a very extended period and then buried in the lineup.

    Yaks problem with the Blues is that team struggled somewhat out of the gate this season. They figured they would be good enough team that they could give him more action. But the season turned more into a tooth and nail affair and cost even Hitch his job.


    The Blues, having spent essentially nothing on Yak didn't really give him a lot of chances. There simply wasn't a lot of investment in the player it seems. To me its eerily reminiscent of how the Flyers treated Gagner. Yet in the right situation with a coach going to him Gagner gets 50pt rebound year in Columbus.

    Success for most players has to do with being in a good situation or not. Eberle was a good player at one point too. The Oilers have had a tendency to wreck some players careers. Or at least stymie them.


    My take is if Yak got drafted by a competent Oilers club and org the nightmare doesn't occur for him.
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    Yak is on the move again and he wasn't offered extended by Blues, he will become FA on July 1 st

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/n...ecome-fa-july/
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  54. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    My take is if Yak got drafted by a competent Oilers club and org the nightmare doesn't occur for him.
    He can be signed, not drafted - but your comment is classic you - Yak will maybe (and its a big maybe) get signed by an NHL team, and then when he fails yet again, you will write "they weren't a competent organization" - its never Yaks fault.

  55. #255
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    Yak is a nice kid and all, but there is no one else to blame but him.

    He plays a very individual type of game, and in the NHL, the competition is too good to play that way. He has never figured out how to play within the system, or utilize his linemates. And the times he does, he typically has some success, but then regresses back to playing an individual style more often than not, he is unpredictable. Coaches don't like that, and therefore he either rides the pine, or plays down in the lineup.

    I really don't think him staying in junior for 2 more years, and then say a year in the minors would have helped. The competition just isn't as good. I don't see how the Oiler's "ruined" him. He had ample opportunity to be successful, and by playing with good players, but until he changes his style of play, and commits more to the team's system, its gonna be hard to find a fit anywhere.

    I bet he goes to the KHL, I don't see any team offering him a contract unfortunately.

  56. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    My take is if Yak got drafted by a competent Oilers club and org the nightmare doesn't occur for him.
    He can be signed, not drafted - but your comment is classic you - Yak will maybe (and its a big maybe) get signed by an NHL team, and then when he fails yet again, you will write "they weren't a competent organization" - its never Yaks fault.
    You really want to debate whether the Oilers were a competent org?

    hey, its dynamic, its more than just Yak that the Oilers wrecked and nearly deep-sixed the careers of Gagner, Schultz, and certainly did with Fayne, Nick Schultz etc. Eakins was quite simply the worst coach the team as ever had. An outright imbecile. That had its impact on every player on the team but imagine being a player with only 48NHL games played and then having to endure the confusion of Eakins *direction*. Yak didn't survive that. He looked like a player, to these eyes, and any scout, before that. Eakins had an adverse impact on Yak, I think its reasonable to state that, its reasonable for you to disagree. We all have our takes. I knew the player, and the skill, and the plays he could make out on the ice before Eakins tore some of the joy of hockey out of this kid..
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  57. #257

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    ^its like saying the reason you failed in your career is you had a bad boss for one year. Whaaaaa, whaaaaa, whaaaa. Poor little Yak If he thinks that way (I hope he doesn't), the same way you do, no wonder no NHL team wants him.

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    Not sure how Yak applies to the 2017 OILERS off season... he hasn't been an Oiler for a season. Don't you guys already have a battle going on about Yak in another thread?

    Glad to see Kassian signed. He's really seized the opportunity to turn his career/life around. Now, hopefully all his goals next season will count...
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  59. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its like saying the reason you failed in your career is you had a bad boss for one year. Whaaaaa, whaaaaa, whaaaa. Poor little Yak If he thinks that way (I hope he doesn't), the same way you do, no wonder no NHL team wants him.
    Hey, I've seen colleagues suffer, and even quit a career after one unusually difficult experience in one job, for one employer, and go onto do something else. I don't agree with that, or quitting, and I've spend 35yrs in my field of work, but I realize that individuals, humans, are susceptible in first jobs and while they are young. A really bad experience effects the inexperienced, or young, more than it impacts others that are more seasoned. Add cultural, even some language differences and the impact is arguably greater.

    Anyhow this, and Yak is all kind of OT now. Doesn't have anything to do with the Oilers now. Thankfully were in different times now and the team has a different path and fortunes.
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  60. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Not sure how Yak applies to the 2017 OILERS off season... he hasn't been an Oiler for a season. Don't you guys already have a battle going on about Yak in another thread?

    Glad to see Kassian signed. He's really seized the opportunity to turn his career/life around. Now, hopefully all his goals next season will count...
    Thank you actually. I just mentioned the same, lets move forward about the present day Oilers. Still rumors out there that the Oilers will have to pay handsomely for McD and Drai. We'll see what happens. I'm happy the Oilers have signed players like Russell and Kassian and I think its interesting how applied those players were in the playoffs. Kassian particularly elevated his game and in reality was about as effective a player as Kesler. He was physical, disruptive, a pest, belting people out there and was a force to play against. What a value contract he is. He even scored key goals.
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    So, getting back to CURRENT Oilers: Bobby Mac says Eric Gryba has agreed to terms on a two-year deal with an AAV of $900K
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    Oil lose out on Spencer Foo - to the Flames

    With Puljujarvi and Yamamoto I'm not sure there was room for another young prospect on RW. Only so much ice time. We'll see how Foo performs for Calgary.

    I like Yamamoto a lot, but I sure don't see him as Gaudreau level talent. That would be a bonus, but those kinds of expectations can set a guy up for failure.

    What I like is that it not only gives the Oilers another offensive option, but it's a different kind of option.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  63. #263

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    ^I don't think Yamamoto is ready to play with the Oilers just yet. Another year in junior and then a full season with the AHL is my guess.

    Foo definitely more NHL ready at this moment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Did you see his toi and use in STL? Hows he supposed to produce playing limited minutes with plumbers. Funny thing is early in the year he had Bergeron and that was going well. But then he got HS'ed for a very extended period and then buried in the lineup.

    Yaks problem with the Blues is that team struggled somewhat out of the gate this season. They figured they would be good enough team that they could give him more action. But the season turned more into a tooth and nail affair and cost even Hitch his job.


    The Blues, having spent essentially nothing on Yak didn't really give him a lot of chances. There simply wasn't a lot of investment in the player it seems. To me its eerily reminiscent of how the Flyers treated Gagner. Yet in the right situation with a coach going to him Gagner gets 50pt rebound year in Columbus.

    Success for most players has to do with being in a good situation or not. Eberle was a good player at one point too. The Oilers have had a tendency to wreck some players careers. Or at least stymie them.


    My take is if Yak got drafted by a competent Oilers club and org the nightmare doesn't occur for him.
    I know - Yak isn't an Oiler anymore, yada yada

    But it's like a tale of two players wrapped into one. The first looked really good, with tons of enthusiasm, skill, and effort.

    Then he got ripped to shreds for an enthusiastic goal celebration, and we had a different guy. After years of stinking up the NHL, I thought the celebration was most welcome.

    Then the truly unfortunate linesman injury.

    He goes into traditional Oilers pet whipping boy territory, and now he's got a low "hockey IQ", according to a bunch of people who probably can't even skate, and some others with the organization who put together the worst run in NHL history. But he's officially "stupid", and the geniuses who failed dismally for 10 years, and drafted him, are fine.

    How would you expect a young guy to take that sort of criticism? I'd be confused too. Hardly the guy to blame for 10 years of futility.

    Replacement is right - his development could hardly have been handled worse, and it may have destroyed his career. Now he's bordering on toxic. He never fit in with St. Louis, and never really got a shot. I hope he does, somewhere. Should be a value contract at this stage.
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    Default McDavid close to signing 8 year, $13.25M per deal

    from Elliotte Friendman's twitter early this morning:

    https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/stat...55907513757696

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    ^I guessed $14m earlier in thread, it looks about right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Oil lose out on Spencer Foo - to the Flames

    With Puljujarvi and Yamamoto I'm not sure there was room for another young prospect on RW. Only so much ice time. We'll see how Foo performs for Calgary.

    I like Yamamoto a lot, but I sure don't see him as Gaudreau level talent. That would be a bonus, but those kinds of expectations can set a guy up for failure.

    What I like is that it not only gives the Oilers another offensive option, but it's a different kind of option.
    I was lukewarm on the Foo thing anyway. You're a good college player, maybe Horcoff 2.0 and you are interviewing and narrowing your list down to four teams etc etc. Please. Yamamoto will be Gaudreau with edge and some fire. Seems to have some swagger.
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  68. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Did you see his toi and use in STL? Hows he supposed to produce playing limited minutes with plumbers. Funny thing is early in the year he had Bergeron and that was going well. But then he got HS'ed for a very extended period and then buried in the lineup.

    Yaks problem with the Blues is that team struggled somewhat out of the gate this season. They figured they would be good enough team that they could give him more action. But the season turned more into a tooth and nail affair and cost even Hitch his job.


    The Blues, having spent essentially nothing on Yak didn't really give him a lot of chances. There simply wasn't a lot of investment in the player it seems. To me its eerily reminiscent of how the Flyers treated Gagner. Yet in the right situation with a coach going to him Gagner gets 50pt rebound year in Columbus.

    Success for most players has to do with being in a good situation or not. Eberle was a good player at one point too. The Oilers have had a tendency to wreck some players careers. Or at least stymie them.


    My take is if Yak got drafted by a competent Oilers club and org the nightmare doesn't occur for him.
    I know - Yak isn't an Oiler anymore, yada yada

    But it's like a tale of two players wrapped into one. The first looked really good, with tons of enthusiasm, skill, and effort.

    Then he got ripped to shreds for an enthusiastic goal celebration, and we had a different guy. After years of stinking up the NHL, I thought the celebration was most welcome.

    Then the truly unfortunate linesman injury.

    He goes into traditional Oilers pet whipping boy territory, and now he's got a low "hockey IQ", according to a bunch of people who probably can't even skate, and some others with the organization who put together the worst run in NHL history. But he's officially "stupid", and the geniuses who failed dismally for 10 years, and drafted him, are fine.

    How would you expect a young guy to take that sort of criticism? I'd be confused too. Hardly the guy to blame for 10 years of futility.

    Replacement is right - his development could hardly have been handled worse, and it may have destroyed his career. Now he's bordering on toxic. He never fit in with St. Louis, and never really got a shot. I hope he does, somewhere. Should be a value contract at this stage.
    Thanks Jimbo, as usual a fair assessment.
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  69. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    from Elliotte Friendman's twitter early this morning:

    https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/stat...55907513757696
    Happy with the term, 8yrs extended is nice to have McDavid for which if I'm not mistaken including next season would mean he's signed for 9 seasons. The money is what you will pay for a player of this caliber. Still, there was no home discount had here if this is the price. The ceiling, 20% afaik was 14M.

    So heres my synopsis on how it went down.

    Camp McDavid; Give us 14M, max, longterm

    Camp Chia: Give you 11M longterm, hey, we want to be able to build a team around you too..

    Camp McDAvid; 13.5, not a penny less.

    Chia: 13M?!

    split the diff, 13,25M


    I mean what are the Oilers going to do here? The prospect that McDavid was going to come at bargain Crosby range was hopeful thinking.


    Next, if this is the real price, Draisaitl's price goes up too and he's been qualified, but we have no numbers at this point.
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  70. #270

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    ^^I have had the good fortune to meet a few top sportspeople in a few different sports. If there is one thing the truly elite normally have, its very high intelligence. If you don't have that, then you need exceptional natural instincts / skill / physical ability (Ovechkin jumps to mind as that prototype). Yakupov seems to not have the right mix, but if he proves me wrong, good for him. If he doesn't, blaming coaches / other people, is really just the excuse of a loser - he should be better than that. Its no shame to not be able to succeed in the hardest hockey league in the world, even if you were a first overall pick, to just reach that is a fantastic achievement that most of us can only dream of.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-06-2017 at 11:04 AM.

  71. #271

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    lol at the twitter feed about all the "fans" calling McD selfish now, and this is too much, and you can't pay players this much. lmfao. We were paying Eberle and Nuge almost this much to be completely useless book ends. A point I'm sure didn't escape Camp McDavid.

    This org for years has thrown money away at players that are far less than McDavid. Why should HE be the player to say "hey' I'll leave a ton of money on the table for the team".

    This team was still paying goofs like Ference and Fayne.

    This price was going to be high. But so will the next ones.

    This team isn't a contender without ALL of McDavid, Drai, and Talbot. The latter two will cost as well and much more than the 6M buck overpaid players on this club.
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  72. #272
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    ^I think there is a worry that if you pay your top players too much you won't be able to build a cup winning team around them. Look at Chicago, they won all their cups before Kane and Toews full contracts kicked in.

  73. #273

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    ^ I know that's the expressed concern. But this is an org that has been overpaying contracts like confetti, and ironically ever since the NHL negotiated a small cap for small market clubs because such clubs couldn't compete financially. Let that sink in for a moment.

    The club has been spending like drunken sailors ever since. Damn sure its not going to stop now at the 3 most important contracts since Pronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    ^I think there is a worry that if you pay your top players too much you won't be able to build a cup winning team around them. Look at Chicago, they won all their cups before Kane and Toews full contracts kicked in.
    And Pittsburgh has won 2 Cups with over half their cap invested in 5 players (Malkin, Crosby, Kessel, Letang, Fleury), 2 of which either didn't play at all in the playoffs (Letang) or who lost their job (again) partway through (Fleury).

    I'd love to see McDavid give the team a hometown discount. But I'm not going to hold it against him if he asks for and gets market value.

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    I'm not worried about the contracts under the salary cap for now. By the time a new McDavid contract kicks in, Fayne will be off the books, Pouliot will have just one more year left, and there's a good chance of the Nuge getting traded. And who can say what the cap will be in the future, or how things will shake out in the next CBA? I think in the short term they should be able to re-sign most of their other current and future key players.
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  76. #276

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    ^I agree - the cap is going up, we have players coming off like Ference and Fayne, Eberle is gone, and Draisaitl will probably sign at about $7m. If anything, PC has some room to add some free agency assets, he isn't under much pressure to do so though, as this team is growing well together. PC has done a great job of picking up some value contracts, Benning for example is true top 4 potential.

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    If McDavid signs for 13.25 mil per season over eight seasons I'm thinking they will have to do much better than 7 for Drai or risk losing him. $106 million contract for McD means Drai should get around 90, in my opinion. More like 11.25 per season. Hey, he's the German Gretzky!

  78. #278

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    ^no, his comparable is Monahan, he is not CMD. He is a very good elite player but he is not significantly more valuable that other players making just under 7m or Tarasenko at $7.5m. If he does do amazing his next contract - then he gets the huge dollars on free agency.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-06-2017 at 01:40 PM.

  79. #279

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    No question Draisaitl is very, very good and earned himself a high-paying contract. However, he didn't score 100 points and win the league MVP award in his 2nd year.

    McDavid is the only irreplaceable player on the Oilers.

  80. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^no, his comparable is Monahan, he is not CMD. He is a very good elite player but he is not significantly more valuable that other players making just under 7m or Tarasenko at $7.5m. If he does do amazing his next contract - then he gets the huge dollars on free agency.
    lol with this ****. Draisaitl is a way better player than Monahan and way more physically dominating.

    Sometimes I think you're a flames fan. I've asked before if you are Guymez from Hf. A couple other posters are wondering as well.
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  81. #281

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    No question Draisaitl is very, very good and earned himself a high-paying contract. However, he didn't score 100 points and win the league MVP award in his 2nd year.

    McDavid is the only irreplaceable player on the Oilers.
    So the difference in points in your opinion is so great?

    Well lets look at the respective seasons and of course I'm going to look at Regular Season and playoffs combined, and why wouldn't one look at that?

    Both scored an identical 36goals in 95GP. McDavid had 74 Assists. Draisaitl had 58 assists. So Connor in the whole season, playoffs included, has 16more assists. Connor even gets more toi and more pp and first unit time.

    Thinking that Draisaitl should make half of what connor makes, and the same ballpark as Ryan Nothing Happens is odd.

    Now consider that the playoffs represent the most salient test of any players ability to come through in big games. Drai knocked the NHL playoffs right out of the ballpark and had 16 assists in 13GP. Nor was his play or point total an aberration. His plays were often spectacular including his filthy passes like the play for the OT goal by Desharnais that is all Draisaitl. That was a Malkin or Crosby level play. Drai goes into corner, protects puck, buys time, nobody knows what he's going to do except Desharnais. He possesses the puck for multiple seconds in tight and then makes a letter perfect pass that was easy for Desharnais to finish. The more brilliant play because not one opponent, including the goalie, recognized what was happening.

    Its Drai's ability to slow the game down like that, and absolutely dominate D on the forcheck, and wingers on the boards that makes him an absolute beast to deal with. Drai would be the best forward on the club in half the teams in this league. A Power forward like this typically gets big money in the NHL. The guy is unstoppable at the absolute highest level of play. The Oilers would not have got to game 7 against the Ducks without those heroic performance including a legendary 3 goals and 2 assists in game 6 and 13 pts in the 7 game series.

    Drai just absolutely owns the Ducks. Not so easy to do. The scary thing for opponents is Draisaitl was just gaining his confidence in the playoffs. He was getting better and better. Around the league there was as much buzz for what Draisaitl was doing in the playoffs (he played better) than what McDavid was doing, just saying. Drai actually finished tied for 7th in playoff points with Forsberg, whose Predators played twice as many series. Just to put it into perspective. Only one player in the entire playoffs bested Drais per game production. Ryan Getzlaf. That's it.

    McDavid of course is generational, best in the NHL, but Drai would be one of the top 10 forwards in the league already. Easy.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-06-2017 at 06:42 PM.
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  82. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^no, his comparable is Monahan, he is not CMD. He is a very good elite player but he is not significantly more valuable that other players making just under 7m or Tarasenko at $7.5m. If he does do amazing his next contract - then he gets the huge dollars on free agency.
    lol with this ****. Draisaitl is a way better player than Monahan and way more physically dominating.

    Sometimes I think you're a flames fan. I've asked before if you are Guymez from Hf. A couple other posters are wondering as well.
    I've never posted on Halfboards. I've always liked Monahan, I wished the Oilers had been one draft spot higher, so could have got him, word is the Oilers wanted to pick him. I like Draisaitil better (primarily due to his chemistry with CMD), but I think the idea that he is a superstar significantly better, based on just one season where he spent much of his time beside the best player in the world, is exactly the sort of stupidity which got us contracts like Eberle and Nuge. He should be paid like his statistical RFA first non-bridge contract peers are, not an excessive amount more than that. I'll be disappointed if he gets more than what the Oilers should bear for him (about 7m), I don't understand why you want to overpay him - it won't help the team.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-06-2017 at 06:56 PM.

  83. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^no, his comparable is Monahan, he is not CMD. He is a very good elite player but he is not significantly more valuable that other players making just under 7m or Tarasenko at $7.5m. If he does do amazing his next contract - then he gets the huge dollars on free agency.
    lol with this ****. Draisaitl is a way better player than Monahan and way more physically dominating.

    Sometimes I think you're a flames fan. I've asked before if you are Guymez from Hf. A couple other posters are wondering as well.
    I've never posted on Halfboards. I've always liked Monahan, I wished the Oilers had been one draft spot higher, so could have got him, word is the Oilers wanted to pick him. I like Draisaitil better (primarily due to his chemistry with CMD), but I think the idea that he is a superstar significantly better, based on just one season, is exactly the sort of stupidity which got us contracts like Eberle and Nuge. He should be paid like his statistical RFA first non-bridge contract peers are, not an excessive amount more than that. I'll be disappointed if he gets more than what the Oilers should bear for him (about 7m), I don't understand why you want to overpay him - it won't help the team.
    Not only is Monahan not a comparable, even Tarasenko isn't a comparable. At same age Drai puts Tarasenko to shame, is also a Center, and a much harder power forward to play against. To compare Drai to the non physical players in Eberle or RNH belies a lack of understanding, entirely, what Power Centers bring in the NHL. In LA it brought two SC's for example.

    heres an interesting recent link;


    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/s...nnor-mcdavids/

    "We’ll predict an eight-year term for Draisiatl with an AAV in the area of $9.2 million. It’s rich, but having McDavid and Draisaitl locked up throughout their prime is going to be expensive."

    Remember I was saying could be 9 or 10M

    keep in mind as well that a team could offer sheet Drai for as much 9M and only give up two firsts, a second, and third for a guy that's going to be a longterm allstar in the league.

    Everywhere I look a Draisaitl offer sheet is being talked about. Half the team boards in the league have some speculation about it. Here's TSN saying there will be a Drai offer sheet at max if McD signs at 13.25M.

    http://www.tsn.ca/video/mcguire-team...13-25m~1156535

    I called that months ago. I hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-06-2017 at 07:06 PM.
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  84. #284
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    McDavid could get the max ($15M) from Vegas, so while $13.25 sounds steep, and is the highest ever, he's actually taking less than he could get from a team with cap space looking for a franchise player.

    I think Replacement undervalues Monohan, who I've watched play a lot, but at this point Draisaitl looks like the better player. One frustrating thing for the Oilers is that the team, and especially it's two best players, finally performed to (or exceeded) expectations, just before they sign those two players to contracts.

    I wonder if there's ever a contract that is geared to a % of the cap rather than a dollar figure. That way, if the cap goes up over 8 seasons, the player isn't paid less in relative terms. It doesn't usually go down. A lot can happen in 8 years, including another CBA.

    The radio show was interesting. I agree with Gord Miller that offer sheets are in the rule book, and he doesn't understand why there's a stigma attached.

    But the money statement was that the Oilers have done it to other teams. I'm not sure that's a consideration, but I could easily see it as justification.
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  85. #285

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    As everybody knows the gambit is twofold. If you hit a divisional or conference club with an offer two sheet its a no lose proposition. In Drais case if a club does offer up to 9.814M they give up 2 firsts, a second, and a third IF they get the player. if they don't get the player they deliver a serious hurt on an opponent org and in this instance forcing the Oilers to match, at essentially 10M. Its win win for any club to do this. Albeit its a card you don't want to play often, Drai is the first name that comes to mind around the league on who will be getting an offer sheet, if anybody will. The rumors are rampant right now.

    I don't undervalue Monahan, Drai is a power forward Center that is a bull, and is impossible to stop or contain. He's stronger than almost any D in the league. He bumps off other Centers and wingers for fun. He's like an NFL player playing in the CFL right now. With all due respect you aren't seeing his total strength out there and when you look at his age he's going to be a monster dominant player in prime. He's already spent the last 2 seasons flirting with ppg for most of that duration. Nor is he dependent on Connor for production.

    moa for some reason is always quoting the 4 first picks compensation. Not sure why he's doing that. A team could as I stated could land Drai at up to 9.814M and give up essentially half the compensation value.

    Re Draisaitl, important to remember the Oilers took a gamble and missed. They could have sewn up a contract offer extension LAST season for Drai, just as they were doing for Connor now. But they waited, and basically sent Drai the message that it was a show me year. Well, Drai really showed them, he knocked it out of the ballpark. Only 7 players in the league had more pts than Draisaitl this season. Only 4 if you're counting Playoffs and Regular season. Only Sidney Crosby, Malkin, Getzlaf and Connor McDavid had more pts than Draisaitl this entire season. Think about that. Drai did this in a show me contract season. Chia gambled and lost on this one bigtime and it will cost the Oilers.

    Finally go back to Drais first year and the Oilers sent him down right before the 40 game mark which cost Drai, and his agent, of that being considered an ELC year. That could get remembered. The Oilers have waited too long on this one, now they will pay.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-06-2017 at 08:21 PM.
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  86. #286

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    Lets put this Monohan comparison to bed. Mono had a sum of 63pts in regular season and playoffs. Drai had 93. Is there really that much of a comparison? Even if one takes into account Drai played 9 more playoff games the margin is still far greater than the difference in production between Drai, and McD. That's just the starting point as well. Drai is better than Monohan offensively, better defensively, much harder to play against and is IMPROVING as big power Centers (they take a bit longer) tend to do. Drai is a punishing player to play against and wears down some of the top D in the league. Monohan isn't.

    Its quite possible that the Flames wouldn't get Draisaitl in a trade for Monohan, Gaudreau, and throwing in a 4th D or a pick. I wouldn't do it.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-06-2017 at 08:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I agree with Gord Miller that offer sheets are in the rule book, and he doesn't understand why there's a stigma attached.
    My thinking is that an RFA offer sheet is considered a hostile move, and the executives/management of each team prefer to maintain good relationships with each other so that any transactions between them are on friendlier terms (even if there's tough negotiations). I think back to the bad blood between Burke and Lowe when the Oilers signed Penner, then contrast that with the Talbot trade for draft picks where Slats mentioned doing his old team a favor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Lets put this Monohan comparison to bed. Mono had a sum of 63pts in regular season and playoffs. Drai had 93. Is there really that much of a comparison? Even if one takes into account Drai played 9 more playoff games the margin is still far greater than the difference in production between Drai, and McD. That's just the starting point as well. Drai is better than Monohan offensively, better defensively, much harder to play against and is IMPROVING as big power Centers (they take a bit longer) tend to do. Drai is a punishing player to play against and wears down some of the top D in the league. Monohan isn't.

    Its quite possible that the Flames wouldn't get Draisaitl in a trade for Monohan, Gaudreau, and throwing in a 4th D or a pick. I wouldn't do it.
    We'll have to disagree on Monohan. I've watched him a lot. I get it that you love the guy, but no way is Draisaitl worth both Gaudreau and Monohan, and no way that trade even gets a sniff if someone brought it up..

    If we're going by ppg, Scheifele and Backstrom were both higher. And Scheifele has an even harder name to spell

    Backstrom might be closer to a comparable, playing with Ovie.

    I think Kopitar is a pretty good comparable, despite his tough go last year. I don't think he was worth anywhere near $10M, but LA have overpaid a couple guys, especially Brown. I think they saw Brown as a team leader with a lot of intangibles, and more or less a prototype for the LA game.

    Last year was a "show me" year for Draisaitl. And he did well. But lots of players do better in a contract year.

    I'm thinking the Oilers use Tarasenko as a comparable. Much different style, but every bit as good as Draisaitl, if not better. Better skater, and better shooter. Not as big, but still has size, and hard to get off the puck.

    Finished 2 points back last year with 75 pts, but 10 more goals (I count goals as being more important than assists - especially secondary assists), and doesn't have arguably the best player in the league playing with him drawing the most attention from opposing teams.

    Exceeded 70 points each of the last 3 seasons. 37 goals, 40 goals, and 39 goals last 3. The guy is a really good player. 8 x $7.5. Has 22 playoff goals, and while last year was a disappointment for Blues, they played two very tight series with no 7 goal blowouts. Wild and Nashville both better than Sharks or Ducks, especially defensively. Most games 2-1, and only two games where any team got 4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I agree with Gord Miller that offer sheets are in the rule book, and he doesn't understand why there's a stigma attached.
    My thinking is that an RFA offer sheet is considered a hostile move, and the executives/management of each team prefer to maintain good relationships with each other so that any transactions between them are on friendlier terms (even if there's tough negotiations). I think back to the bad blood between Burke and Lowe when the Oilers signed Penner, then contrast that with the Talbot trade for draft picks where Slats mentioned doing his old team a favor.
    The first thing brought up on the radio show posted by Replacement was the fact the Oilers have been guilty of offer sheeting a player. It is a hostile move, and GM's have long memories. There's still some bad blood, and Lowe is still connected with the team, especially in people's minds.
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    Ultimately it looks like the Oilers will be paying close to 30% of the cap to two players. They are probably hoping the cap goes up. Either way they'll be feeling the same squeeze a lot of the other teams have been dealing with.

    Expecting McDavid and/or Draisaitl to take a discount is one thing, but a guy making a paltry couple of mil isn't going to do that.
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    Will the Oilers have to consider trading Draisitl before an offer sheet can happen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Lets put this Monohan comparison to bed. Mono had a sum of 63pts in regular season and playoffs. Drai had 93. Is there really that much of a comparison? Even if one takes into account Drai played 9 more playoff games the margin is still far greater than the difference in production between Drai, and McD. That's just the starting point as well. Drai is better than Monohan offensively, better defensively, much harder to play against and is IMPROVING as big power Centers (they take a bit longer) tend to do. Drai is a punishing player to play against and wears down some of the top D in the league. Monohan isn't.

    Its quite possible that the Flames wouldn't get Draisaitl in a trade for Monohan, Gaudreau, and throwing in a 4th D or a pick. I wouldn't do it.
    We'll have to disagree on Monohan. I've watched him a lot. I get it that you love the guy, but no way is Draisaitl worth both Gaudreau and Monohan, and no way that trade even gets a sniff if someone brought it up..

    If we're going by ppg, Scheifele and Backstrom were both higher. And Scheifele has an even harder name to spell

    Backstrom might be closer to a comparable, playing with Ovie.

    I think Kopitar is a pretty good comparable, despite his tough go last year. I don't think he was worth anywhere near $10M, but LA have overpaid a couple guys, especially Brown. I think they saw Brown as a team leader with a lot of intangibles, and more or less a prototype for the LA game.

    Last year was a "show me" year for Draisaitl. And he did well. But lots of players do better in a contract year.

    I'm thinking the Oilers use Tarasenko as a comparable. Much different style, but every bit as good as Draisaitl, if not better. Better skater, and better shooter. Not as big, but still has size, and hard to get off the puck.

    Finished 2 points back last year with 75 pts, but 10 more goals (I count goals as being more important than assists - especially secondary assists), and doesn't have arguably the best player in the league playing with him drawing the most attention from opposing teams.

    Exceeded 70 points each of the last 3 seasons. 37 goals, 40 goals, and 39 goals last 3. The guy is a really good player. 8 x $7.5. Has 22 playoff goals, and while last year was a disappointment for Blues, they played two very tight series with no 7 goal blowouts. Wild and Nashville both better than Sharks or Ducks, especially defensively. Most games 2-1, and only two games where any team got 4.
    Draisaitl and Kopitar are dominating physical Centers that are absolute wrecking balls when they are on their game. Both are difference makers at the highest level. Conversely a player like Tarasenko, completely different kind of player, and not a center, is not nearly the same impact player in the crunch. Frankly if a team has a best player in Tarasenko, they're not going anywhere. No disrespect to him its just hard for a winger to really make the same difference in hockey as a Center, a top D, or a goalie. I can't remember the last time a club won a SC and their clear best player was a Winger. This is also why franchise Centers get paid more than wingers. Especially power Centers that control the opposition. Drai would be that guy on almost any other team. He would be the franchise Center on all but say half a dozen clubs.

    Finally, and this needs to be stressed, is Tarasenko is 4years older, I don't know how you are not factoring that in. When Tarasenko was Draisaitls age he was not in any way a remarkable NHL player. At Draisaitl's age Tarasenko respectively had 19, and 43 pt seasons.

    I do get though, that there is a lot of value in Goalscoring, but Drai is no slouch at that and doesn't get nearly the toi or first unit PP time that Tarasenko gets. Frankly if the Blues and Oilers traded these players straight up the Blues would be a much harder team to contend with and Drai would easily be the best player on that club, and take them farther than Tarasenko ever will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

    ... Finally, and this needs to be stressed, is Tarasenko is 4years older, I don't know how you are not factoring that in. When Tarasenko was Draisaitls age he was not in any way a remarkable NHL player. At Draisaitl's age Tarasenko respectively had 19, and 43 pt seasons.
    ...
    Tarasenko has averaged 39 goals over the last 3 seasons (37, 40, 39).

    Let that sink in. Only Ovechkin has scored more. He's scored more than Crosby or Kane.

    22 goals in 44 playoff games. Draisaitl has 6 in 13.

    Career +54. Leon career -12.

    Rookie season 8 goals in 38 games. Draisaitl 2 goals in 37 games.

    2nd season 21 goals in 64 games. Draisaitl 19 goals in 72 games.

    3rd season 37 goals in 72 games. Draisaitl last year, his 3rd, a breakout season, 29 in 82 games.

    He's 25 years old. How do you not factor that in?

    Draisaitl had his biggest impact playing wing with McDavid, and he may spend more time on the wing than at centre, as he did in the playoffs.

    Tarasenko is a beast. One of the best in the game. If Draisaitl hits those marks, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

    There's no way the Oilers don't bring up Tarasenko's numbers. They are, undeniably, consistently, superior. He's better than Draisaitl, by any objective standards.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  94. #294

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    Draisaitl is 21.

    Draisaitl is a dominant NHL Center, at that age already one of the very best in the league at that position, Center, that is immensely more important in hockey, than that of a winger that is 4yrs older and who is producing the same even though Tarasenko is at prime hockey age and Draisaitl is not yet.

    AS far as +/- that is a team based metric. Tarasenko has spent his entire career playing on a winning club. Some of Drais stats come from the worst team in hockey. That's not on him, that's on how bad this club was.

    Finally, Draisaitl has already surpassed Tarasenko, while being 4yrs younger. Tarasenko is one of the best modern era scorers but Drai is almost there with him. But its in playmaking where Drai will blow the ordinary Tarasenko out of the water. Tarasenko just isn't that much of a playmaker, which is why Drai has already caught him in production. Nobody looks JUST at goals. Nobody would argue Tarasenko is better than Crosby, or Kane. Or Draisaitl now, who has joined the NHL elite along with McDavid.
    Last edited by Replacement; 29-06-2017 at 02:15 AM.
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  95. #295

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    Next, since you want to look at specious things like +/- and playoff goals why not explore a bigger picture?

    Tarasenko is -6 in playoff play in his career, Drai is +8. It seems you only quoted that stat where its convenient. But this is part of it right, why not look at it too? It seems the picture isn't so clear when playoffs is corrected for. That is a form of statistical correction as well as teams that both make the playoffs are more comparable than comparing the +/- of players on teams that are contenders vs those that play on worst clubs.

    Drai's playoff production is otherworldly, its off the charts. his ppg in playoffs is 1.23 Tarasenkos is way behind that at .72 not even remotely comparable. Yet you saw fit to speciously cite that Tarasenko has a fraction greater GPG than Draisaitl.

    Tarasenko has a pathetic total of 10 assists in 44GP in his career. Just an awful pedestrian total of assists. For comparison Drai has accumulated the same amount, 10 assists just in one playoff year in 13GP. Pause and consider that. Tarasenko is one dimensional, and only becomes moreso against playoff level opposition.

    Finally, of all the players that have finished in topten scoring over the last couple decades you won't fine one who has less assists than Tarasenko who never sees a shot attempt he doesn't like but is certainly not balanced in playmaking acumen. With Drai he can hurt you by scoring or making a lot of plays. With Tarasenko if you cover him tight he's not as dangerous distributing the puck His 36 assist peak is a mediocre total for a supposed all round elite "beast".
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  96. #296
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    Tarasenko is flat out better. Maybe Draisaitl continues to improve, but there's no guarantee. Some guys hit their peak in their early 20's. Is he going to be paid for producing, or for hope he will? We've been down that road before after one good season.

    Tarasenko has no McDavid to work with, and draws the other team's best players.

    Away from McDavid, when Draisaitl was centering his own line, Draisaitl's line was outshot (48% corsi), and outscored (even worse 44% of all goals), against the oppositions 2nd or 3rd line.

    Without Draisaitl, McDavid's line was still awesome, against the best opposition players . oilers nation

    McDavid is the tide that lifts all ships.

    Draisaitl is very good, but maybe not quite the dominant centre and great defensively as you seem to think. Maybe down the road, but that's a maybe. Tarasenko has proven to be as consistent as one could wish for.

    All that aside, I think Tarasenko's contract is pretty good value, and I'll be surprised if Draisaitl doesn't get significantly more. Maybe as much as $9M, but I'm guessing the number begins
    with an 8.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 29-06-2017 at 03:55 AM.
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  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...
    Tarasenko is -6 in playoff play in his career, Drai is +8. It seems you only quoted that stat where its convenient. But this is part of it right, why not look at it too? It seems the picture isn't so clear when playoffs is corrected for. That is a form of statistical correction as well as teams that both make the playoffs are more comparable than comparing the +/- of players on teams that are contenders vs those that play on worst clubs.

    Drai's playoff production is otherworldly, its off the charts. his ppg in playoffs is 1.23 Tarasenkos is way behind that at .72 not even remotely comparable. Yet you saw fit to speciously cite that Tarasenko has a fraction greater GPG than Draisaitl.

    Tarasenko has a pathetic total of 10 assists in 44GP in his career. Just an awful pedestrian total of assists. For comparison Drai has accumulated the same amount, 10 assists just in one playoff year in 13GP. Pause and consider that. Tarasenko is one dimensional, and only becomes moreso against playoff level opposition.

    Finally, of all the players that have finished in topten scoring over the last couple decades you won't fine one who has less assists than Tarasenko who never sees a shot attempt he doesn't like but is certainly not balanced in playmaking acumen. With Drai he can hurt you by scoring or making a lot of plays. With Tarasenko if you cover him tight he's not as dangerous distributing the puck His 36 assist peak is a mediocre total for a supposed all round elite "beast".
    Right. Tarasenko is "pathetic". Outscores Crosby and Kane (and everyone else not named Ovechkin) over the last 3 years. How pathetic is that?

    The salient point - Tarasenko doesn't play with McDavid.

    You accuse me of ignoring stats. I quote stat after stat after stat after stat, and you just brush them off, because you have another one. Weren't you the guy who said +/- wasn't really a good indicator? But now it's more important than being the second highest goal scorer in the entire league over the last 3 years?

    St Louis played Minnesota and Nashville in the playoffs, and there were no high scoring games. Both teams concentrated on Tarasenko the way the Ducks and Sharks concentrated on McDavid.

    If Tarasenko is one-dimensional, that one dimension is pretty good. 22 playoff goals in 44 games. 116 goals in the last 3 regular seasons.

    Away from McDavid Leon's stats are poor. There's nobody close to a McDavid on St Louis.Can you imagine a sniper like Tarasenko with McDavid? He'd get 60.

    Ironic you should bring up ppg in the playoffs. You know who had a higher ppg? Monohan.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  98. #298
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    Dave Semenko dies of cancer at age 59.
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    RIP Got to meet him more than a few times and he was always so willing to chat, grab a photo and talk about the good ol days.
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  100. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Tarasenko is flat out better. Maybe Draisaitl continues to improve, but there's no guarantee. Some guys hit their peak in their early 20's. Is he going to be paid for producing, or for hope he will? We've been down that road before after one good season.

    Tarasenko has no McDavid to work with, and draws the other team's best players.

    Away from McDavid, when Draisaitl was centering his own line, Draisaitl's line was outshot (48% corsi), and outscored (even worse 44% of all goals), against the oppositions 2nd or 3rd line.

    Without Draisaitl, McDavid's line was still awesome, against the best opposition players . oilers nation

    McDavid is the tide that lifts all ships.

    Draisaitl is very good, but maybe not quite the dominant centre and great defensively as you seem to think. Maybe down the road, but that's a maybe. Tarasenko has proven to be as consistent as one could wish for.

    All that aside, I think Tarasenko's contract is pretty good value, and I'll be surprised if Draisaitl doesn't get significantly more. Maybe as much as $9M, but I'm guessing the number begins
    with an 8.
    This discussion ends with this Jimbo post. I like Draisaitl. But everything is based on one season. A good season no doubt. But one season. Too assume he will continue to trend onwards and upwards after one break out season is speculation at best. I hope so. But extolling the virtues of a dominant playoff run, one playoff run, is to also assume going forward that any other teams will have no answer for this or be able to adjust. He played very well against the Ducks and we still lost. The Tarasenko comparable is more than fair.
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