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Thread: Deconstructing the "Alberta Advantage" - what did we actually gain?

  1. #1

    Default Deconstructing the "Alberta Advantage" - what did we actually gain?

    My question: How well did "The Alberta Advantage" actually work?

    Please don't discuss the 'means to this end'. Or whether 'the end justified the means'. The question is: did the end result actually work - in the end?

    We all know those negative impacts the Klein administration's pursuit of the "Alberta Advantage" had on Alberta. We all complain about those. Given that many people want a return to those austerity policies of government cuts, deregulation/simplification, lower corporate taxes, oil friendly development policies, etc. I think we should just look back and see what those policies actually did for us not long ago.

    Moreover the Alberta Advantage was an exceedingly rare example in the world of creating a deregulated, debt free, zero sales tax, business friendly environment plus with a kicker of a personal flat tax environment. It's amazing that it's not sufficed in depth as a guide to finding out what works and what doesn't.

    So just assuming the "means justified the end", how well did the "Alberta Advantage" perform? Please try to back out of your assessment the effect rising oil prices had. What were oil prices at the announcement of the "Alberta Advantage" and what were oil prices at the end of Klien's term in office?

    What metrics would you consider as useful in assessing the policy impact?

    One I would use is the degree of additional economic diversification a business friendly policy would create. Others? Economic resilience? Population growth? Government tax receipts?

  2. #2

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    What was the impact of policy on improved competitiveness and selling it around the world?


    The origin and real meaning of the “Alberta Advantage” | daveberta.ca - Alberta Politics
    July 7, 2016 daveberta.ca

    Excerpt:

    "August 31, 1993 marked the first time the words “Alberta Advantage” were uttered on the floor of Alberta’s Legislative Assembly.

    “Unlike some others, my government will not try to buy prosperity through higher taxes. Instead, it will build on Alberta’s existing advantage of low taxes and its free enterprise spirit to develop the most competitive economy in North America. The government will strengthen the Alberta Advantage and sell it aggressively around the globe.” – Speech from the Throne, August 31, 1993.
    http://daveberta.ca/2016/07/the-myth...rta-advantage/

    Bolding was mine
    Last edited by KC; 29-05-2017 at 09:25 AM.

  3. #3

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    ^So, you want to start a thread where you somehow claim that the Klein years were bad? All I know is we paid off the debt, even though we paid massively more federal tax via federal taxes on our economy than we received back from the Federal government (equalization) - we would have a fund every bit as big as Norway, a massive advantage, if we weren't part of Canada, if we didn't share. Those years of advantage encourage business to invest in the province and created some of the highest salaries and trade income's in the world, in both the private and public sector. Now, even though oil prices are at very good and sustainable levels, business is not choosing to invest here, and accordingly, we have an Alberta disadvantage - our wealth relative to the rest of the world is in decline. Until government policies change to make this a good place to invest again, that's going to continue. I'm looking forward to the next government, the Pee party, bringing back the Alberta advantage, so Albertan's can worry less about losing their job, and more about how they are going to meet the demands of their job, because there is again, so much investment, and work to do, so much wealth to enjoy.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-05-2017 at 09:25 AM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^So, you want to start a thread where you somehow claim that the Klein years were bad? All I know is we paid off the debt, even though we paid massively more federal tax via federal taxes on our economy than we received back from the Federal government (equalization) - we would have a fund every bit as big as Norway, a massive advantage, if we weren't part of Canada, if we didn't share. Those years of advantage encourage business to invest in the province and created some of the highest salaries and trade income's in the world, in both the private and public sector. Now, even though oil prices are at very good and sustainable levels, business is not choosing to invest here, and accordingly, we have an Alberta disadvantage - our wealth relative to the rest of the world is in decline. Until government policies change to make this a good place to invest again, that's going to continue. I'm looking forward to the next government, the Pee party, bringing back the Alberta advantage, so Albertan's can worry less about losing their job, and more about how they are going to meet the demands of their job.
    "So, you want to start a thread where you somehow claim that the Klein years were bad? "

    Wow for the life of you, you just can't be rational can you?

    ...and "paid off the debt". You immediately get in the means and not the results.

    Let talk results, no matter how the starting point was attained.
    Last edited by KC; 29-05-2017 at 09:29 AM.

  5. #5

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    ^you are the one who started another Klein thread with this false claim about negative impacts, I certainly didn't see them, this province was roaring when I arrived in Alberta for everyone except fat cat bureaucrats:

    We all know those negative impacts the Klein administration's pursuit of the "Alberta Advantage" had on Alberta.
    Now its the fat cat bureaucrat who is getting fatter while the province staggers and unemployment is at record highs.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-05-2017 at 09:32 AM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^you are the one who started another Klein thread with this false claim about negative impacts, I certainly didn't see them, this province was roaring when I arrived in Alberta for everyone except fat cat bureaucrats:

    We all know those negative impacts the Klein administration's pursuit of the "Alberta Advantage" had on Alberta.
    Now its the fat cat bureaucrat who are getting fatter while the province staggers and unemployment is at record highs.
    Then talk about that time. Those who were here saw and experienced the measures needed, or at least employed, in order to reduce the deficit, government regulations etc. (Deferred infrastructure spend, health care and other cuts, etc). The effectiveness of those policies are worthy of review as well. However, those were the means to the end - attaining "The Alberta Advantage". Let's talk Advantage and not austerity.

  7. #7

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    ^we lived within our means at that time. It was a good time, I got a cheque from the government for my family, it got invested in RESP for my kids. Subsequent governments, made up crap about an "infrastructure deficit", to justify going on a government spending spree on things we weren't able to afford. It we had stayed within our means, there would be no deficit now, tax loads would be at the right level to attract investment, and investment would be happening. Instead, we have a bunch of useless infrastructure (like the half empty brand new hospital in Southern Calgary), an out of control ridiculously expensive public service, and an ever growing debt load. Its not rocket science, if government spends no more than what it earns, we live within our means. If that "means", means its 30 kids to a classroom instead of 25 (still world class, my classrooms were 35 plus as a child), then so be it, living beyond that is just making life harder for future Albertans. That's not austerity, its being lean and successful instead of fat and useless, which is what Stelmac, Redford, and Notley have lead us to.
    Last edited by moahunter; 29-05-2017 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #8

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    Again please talk about the effectiveness of the Alberta Advantage.

  9. #9

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    I failed to see the Alberta advantage for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service. I always thought we should have built the large projects in fazes, managed growth more responsibly ...but it's, rammer together , get er done wrong . I'm actually sick of this province just waiting for kids to finish school so we can get the heck out of here

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    I failed to see the Alberta advantage for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service. I always thought we should have built the large projects in fazes, managed growth more responsibly ...but it's, rammer together , get er done wrong . I'm actually sick of this province just waiting for kids to finish school so we can get the heck out of here
    "for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service."

    That's news to me. Any examples you can share or was that just your impression?

    At the height of the boom I heard stories of how hard it was to hire and keep staff. And here on c2e there are posters talking about the poor quality of staff that were hired and then were the first to be laid off.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    I failed to see the Alberta advantage for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service. I always thought we should have built the large projects in fazes, managed growth more responsibly ...but it's, rammer together , get er done wrong . I'm actually sick of this province just waiting for kids to finish school so we can get the heck out of here
    "for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service."

    That's news to me. Any examples you can share or was that just your impression?

    At the height of the boom I heard stories of how hard it was to hire and keep staff. And here on c2e there are posters talking about the poor quality of staff that were hired and then were the first to be laid off.
    That's what I'm saying . KC. It was darn near impossible to find skilled labor.....I would never buy a house that was built during the boom and the burocracy who were responsible for the permitting , inspections...didn't do their job. I would have to say the LRT by far was the biggest disaster ever seen. Did you know the biggest problem with that project was the city's failure to have the sites surveyed? They didn't account for utility's, drainage...nothing . But , get these Don Coniversons pointing fingers at everyone else when it was his city ......Even going to a restraunt , it was always poor service . Pot hole infested roads . 5 hour wait to see a doctor.
    Last edited by champking; 29-05-2017 at 02:22 PM.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Again please talk about the effectiveness of the Alberta Advantage.
    The Alberta Advantage. Just buzz words for taking care of business. It gets boring, get over it.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Again please talk about the effectiveness of the Alberta Advantage.
    The Alberta Advantage. Just buzz words for taking care of business. It gets boring, get over it.
    I tend to agree with you. High taxes, low taxes, high government spend, low spend, high deficits, low deficits, etc. Right wing or left wing politics - all drive slogans, platitudes and meaningless forecasts but in reality it's all relative. People just like to declare that this or that policy approach will make all the difference in the future - if only we elect their favoured politician or party. Then life carries on and no one ever goes back to see if anything made any real difference or even came close to the promised effect.

    Challenge anyone to prove that this or that policy made any real difference and all you get is silence or tangential discussions.

  14. #14

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    ^That's exactly it. Find a slogan/buzz word/flavor of the month. Flog it to the public/business world. Hope it sticks even though it's all fluff.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^That's exactly it. Find a slogan/buzz word/flavor of the month. Flog it to the public/business world. Hope it sticks even though it's all fluff.
    Kinda like all this lame ' Tater tot ' ' Mr. Potato' ' sunny ways garbage . Rather than call the guy Harperman...he should have been called ' Flufferman ' and the Fluffer- party of Canada . With their Fluffer-plans and Fluffer-ganda .

  16. #16

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    ^Well Tater Tot got that handle on his trip to China. Somebody called him small potato in the Chinese language and the translation here was Tater Tot. He come by the name honestly and the Chinese obviously thought it suited him.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  17. #17

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    It wasn't meant as an insult at all, no matter how much you wanna try and twist things with your alternative facts, Gem.

    Trudeau sounds like "tudou" or potato in Mandarin. The only people calling him "tater tot" are the alt-righters & conservative goof troop who will always hate him on principle.

    E: Thanks for making it clear you're a reader/follower of The Rebel. I always suspected as much, but thanks for making it abundantly clear where you get your rhetoric from.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Well Tater Tot got that handle on his trip to China. Somebody called him small potato in the Chinese language and the translation here was Tater Tot. He come by the name honestly and the Chinese obviously thought it suited him.

    China loves him watch him give/sell canada to them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^That's exactly it. Find a slogan/buzz word/flavor of the month. Flog it to the public/business world. Hope it sticks even though it's all fluff.
    Kinda like all this lame ' Tater tot ' ' Mr. Potato' ' sunny ways garbage . Rather than call the guy Harperman...he should have been called ' Flufferman ' and the Fluffer- party of Canada . With their Fluffer-plans and Fluffer-ganda .
    you mean sort of like picking "champking" as your on-line pseudonym and then expecting to be taken seriously?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^That's exactly it. Find a slogan/buzz word/flavor of the month. Flog it to the public/business world. Hope it sticks even though it's all fluff.
    Kinda like all this lame ' Tater tot ' ' Mr. Potato' ' sunny ways garbage . Rather than call the guy Harperman...he should have been called ' Flufferman ' and the Fluffer- party of Canada . With their Fluffer-plans and Fluffer-ganda .
    you mean sort of like picking "champking" as your on-line pseudonym and then expecting to be taken seriously?
    LOL, your quick today

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^Well Tater Tot got that handle on his trip to China. Somebody called him small potato in the Chinese language and the translation here was Tater Tot. He come by the name honestly and the Chinese obviously thought it suited him.
    I know how he got the name and as a Ukrainian I have great respect for the potato . It's the primary way I feed my family for I can plant a crop and it last all year, with enough seed for next year's crop. It's cheap and healthy...with out having give the Flufferman all my money. ..

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    I failed to see the Alberta advantage for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service. I always thought we should have built the large projects in fazes, managed growth more responsibly ...but it's, rammer together , get er done wrong . I'm actually sick of this province just waiting for kids to finish school so we can get the heck out of here
    "for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service."

    That's news to me. Any examples you can share or was that just your impression?

    At the height of the boom I heard stories of how hard it was to hire and keep staff. And here on c2e there are posters talking about the poor quality of staff that were hired and then were the first to be laid off.
    That's what I'm saying . KC. It was darn near impossible to find skilled labor.....I would never buy a house that was built during the boom and the burocracy who were responsible for the permitting , inspections...didn't do their job. I would have to say the LRT by far was the biggest disaster ever seen. Did you know the biggest problem with that project was the city's failure to have the sites surveyed? They didn't account for utility's, drainage...nothing . But , get these Don Coniversons pointing fingers at everyone else when it was his city ......Even going to a restraunt , it was always poor service . Pot hole infested roads . 5 hour wait to see a doctor.
    I attribute the boom-time problems more to $140/bbl oil prices than low taxes, etc. Tough to separate the two though because we did attract hundreds of billions in oil development capital until shale proved its superior competitiveness. (Not sure how much shale development can be credited to Alberta Advantage-like conditions in states and provinces though I do know that a lot of government/taxpayer money or subsidies/tax-breaks went into developing the technology.)


    So within a decade to decade and a half (I don't have a solid starting point), did the AA create those boom time conditions? ... in our primary sector, in all sectors, in new sectors?
    Last edited by KC; 29-05-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by champking View Post
    I failed to see the Alberta advantage for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service. I always thought we should have built the large projects in fazes, managed growth more responsibly ...but it's, rammer together , get er done wrong . I'm actually sick of this province just waiting for kids to finish school so we can get the heck out of here
    "for it made business impossible . Shady construction. Poor labor performance. Bad service."

    That's news to me. Any examples you can share or was that just your impression?

    At the height of the boom I heard stories of how hard it was to hire and keep staff. And here on c2e there are posters talking about the poor quality of staff that were hired and then were the first to be laid off.
    That's what I'm saying . KC. It was darn near impossible to find skilled labor.....I would never buy a house that was built during the boom and the burocracy who were responsible for the permitting , inspections...didn't do their job. I would have to say the LRT by far was the biggest disaster ever seen. Did you know the biggest problem with that project was the city's failure to have the sites surveyed? They didn't account for utility's, drainage...nothing . But , get these Don Coniversons pointing fingers at everyone else when it was his city ......Even going to a restraunt , it was always poor service . Pot hole infested roads . 5 hour wait to see a doctor.
    I attribute the boom-time problems more to $140/bbl oil prices than low taxes, etc. Tough to separate the two though because we did attract hundreds of billions in oil development capital until shale proved its superior competitiveness. (Not sure how much shale development can be credited to Alberta Advantage-like conditions in states and provinces though I do know that a lot of government/taxpayer money or subsidies/tax-breaks went into developing the technology.)


    So within a decade to decade and a half (I don't have a solid starting point), did the AA create those boom time conditions? ... in our primary sector, in all sectors, in new sectors?
    There's really no easy answer to that but, if we look at it as a business. Sure we draw in $140 billion but we also paid out much more than that in bringing in the million more people. Twinning the highways, building the airports . Education . Healthcare...we just need look at the provinces balance sheets to see, it's left us broke busted. It's like my welding business...if I brought in say $500,000 for the year but after paying the wages, materials, equipment and it cost me $700,000 to operate. No businessman in his/her right mind would do it....but then those investmentors pull out and we're stuck holding the bag, paying for all those things. Being a born raised Albertan's I feel taken advantage of...I don't want fair weather friends like that....we would have been better off managing with what we had.

  24. #24

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    As for shale I'm deeply divided for : it's the main reason I quit the trades unions for they take our pension money , send it to the international in Washington, to invest in shale...putting us in Alberta out of work....on the other hand my family's making out like bandits. All our old wells...we're getting more money , subsidies by taxpayers to inject co2...than if we were producing oil. Brad walls a meat head but if that's what the people want...fine . We laugh for its the biggest scam going.

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    The real question is: "What would Ralph do?"
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

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    ^Yaasss
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    Its looking like BC will be going NDP/Green for their new government. Now what. More disadvantage for Alberta.

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    ^ Transmountain pipeline still moving ahead according to JT.
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    The real question is: "What would Ralph do?"
    The real question is what will JT do.
    It's about time the federal government stepped in and overrode these provinces that are opposed to these pipelines. The Oil/Gas industry brings huge wealth to all provinces of Canada. The railway going from coast to coast was a nation builder. The Oil/Gas industry should be looked at in the same way. Individual provinces should not be able to just shut it down when it has been giving the go ahead that it is safe to do so.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    The real question is: "What would Ralph do?"
    The real question is what will JT do.
    It's about time the federal government stepped in and overrode these provinces that are opposed to these pipelines. The Oil/Gas industry brings huge wealth to all provinces of Canada. The railway going from coast to coast was a nation builder. The Oil/Gas industry should be looked at in the same way. Individual provinces should not be able to just shut it down when it has been giving the go ahead that it is safe to do so.
    He would never go against Quebec.

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    I think premier Clark's decision to support the trans mountain line cost her too many votes. Anyone that thinks the pipeline will be build with the NDP/Greens in power and the Greens holding the balance of power is dreaming. Tanker cars will be in high demand by the railroads. Can they build them in Nisku?
    Last edited by Drumbones; 30-05-2017 at 04:07 PM.

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    BC is la la land, especially now

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    They just announced that they will be trying to stop the KM pipeline. CBC Andrew & John.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 30-05-2017 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    They just announced that they will be trying to stop the KM pipeline. CBC Andrew & John.
    I saw that, that's pretty much what they were voted in to do. Now let's see what Trudeau does.! Saying is one thing, doing another.

    Its only twinning another pipeline. Sigh

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    I know, so crazy. I guess it's more tankers around Vancouver and the island that really upsets them as well.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 30-05-2017 at 05:16 PM.

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    Call the armed forces
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

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    The government will now be extremely unstable, however the mayor who has a job, will be very pleased. Even though a lot of people were counting on a job for themselves..

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Its looking like BC will be going NDP/Green for their new government. Now what. More disadvantage for Alberta.
    With the new BC government not likely to approve any major resource projects (LNG, hydro electric and pipelines), I have a feeling the BC economy is headed for a big slow down soon.

    The resource economy will be in the doldrums and all they will have left is real estate and high housing prices to support economic activity. I think their Wile E Coyote moment (where he looks down after running off the cliff and sees nothing supporting him) is coming up soon.

    Alberta is forecast to have the highest growth rate of any province in the upcoming year. I think the momentum will soon shift back to Alberta from BC. Its been a few tough years, but Alberta is about to get back its mojo.

  39. #39

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    The Kinder Morgan pipeline expansion will proceed despite new political pressures from B.C., Alberta Premier Rachel Notley insisted on Tuesday.
    "Mark my words, that pipeline will be built, the decisions have been made," Notley said during a news conference in Edmonton.
    "There may be debate, but at the end of the day we're quite confident in our position."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...mier-1.4137867

    The K M pipeline was giving the green light last November by the federal government. This B C alliance of the NDP and Greens (if it gets voted for by members) is just blowing off steam. They have to say something to make themselves look relevant. K M is low picking fruit. Sure there will be Rent a Riot and all the other mouthpieces that don't have jobs out picketing. Most of them holding out for more compensation for whatever they perceive might happen. They should be removed if they stop the progress of the pipeline expansion. While they are at it get to the source of who finances these protesters then call them out on it.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think premier Clark's decision to support the trans mountain line cost her too many votes.
    I don't think so, polls show most people in BC support Trans Mountain. I think its just voter fatigue, the Liberals have been in power for a long time in BC (16 years). The campaign financing donations scandal hurt the Liberals badly as well (B.C. is well behind Alberta and other provinces in that respect). I just don't understand what they are trying to do in B.C., the NDP and greens talk about raising social living standards, but then are in the same breath trying to shut down the type of projects that are needed to maintain those living standards (let alone improve them). These big projects would inject billions into the BC economy, and hundreds of millions of dollars to indigenous communities (most of whom are directly affected - support the projects).
    Last edited by moahunter; 30-05-2017 at 05:57 PM.

  41. #41

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    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    I don't know, solar panels probably work better in sunny Alberta than in rainy BC.

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    Maybe they plan to up pot production. EIA is building the largest grow op in the world. They better get a heads up. lol

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    There is a whole lot of O&G production in NE bc too. Dawson Creek and Ft St John and that 1/4 of BC has a lot going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think premier Clark's decision to support the trans mountain line cost her too many votes.
    I don't think so, polls show most people in BC support Trans Mountain. I think its just voter fatigue, the Liberals have been in power for a long time in BC (16 years). The campaign financing donations scandal hurt the Liberals badly as well (B.C. is well behind Alberta and other provinces in that respect). I just don't understand what they are trying to do in B.C., the NDP and greens talk about raising social living standards, but then are in the same breath trying to shut down the type of projects that are needed to maintain those living standards (let alone improve them). These big projects would inject billions into the BC economy, and hundreds of millions of dollars to indigenous communities (most of whom are directly affected - support the projects).
    BC's political makeup has the majority of the power in the Lower Mainland. The interior and north BC tends to be more aligned to Albertans in many respects...but that doesn't help at the polls when the votes are cast. This is the interesting thing...pipelines, and even transmission lines...would face a lot less opposition if the builders and the governments made sure that the environment was respected, and landowners were properly compensated...or even made shareholders (gasp of gasps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    I don't know, solar panels probably work better in sunny Alberta than in rainy BC.
    ...I will see your solar in Alberta, and raise you one Fort McMurray 550kV HVDC powerline that is being built to funnel power from bitumen to the grid. I asked for solar to be put on my land so that I could at least get some better compensation for the destruction of my nature preserves by this unnecessary powerline...and was told flat out it won't happen...because it won't make money. Connecting to the world's alleged third largest supply of hydrocarbon energy simply makes power generation via solar moot.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    Its ridiculous, plain and simple.

    https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/rep...beandmail.com&

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    Its ridiculous, plain and simple.

    https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/rep...beandmail.com&
    Thank you for posting a story that's over a year old. Meanwhile global PV solar capacity continues to grow exponentially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    Its ridiculous, plain and simple.

    https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/rep...beandmail.com&
    Thank you for posting a story that's over a year old. Meanwhile global PV solar capacity continues to grow exponentially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics

    Try googling solar factories. I know its a year old( the link) do you think sales are going through the roof? Think again.
    Last edited by H.L.; 31-05-2017 at 12:03 AM.

  49. #49

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    Since everyone is older than me, or so I can perceive... I thought I might say that the "advantage" to me means (through media, personal affect, and Edmonton in general) a lack of mass transit investment, mediocre freeway/highway creation and investment, a heavy reliance on natural resource revenue compared to other provinces, and a natural instinct in politics that taxes mean an attack on jobs and business. I believe our taxes (all, some, specific ones...) are low or allocated towards the wrong places. The past few years I feel we're playing catch up as a city towards infrastructure like roads, freeways, transit, schools, health, and diversity of economy. I like low taxes - who doesn't - but I enjoy healthy cities in which I live for all. What I have seen since Klein is a transition from austerity to investment in infrastructure, due, to what I see, a hold-back on the investments to hold the black ink. Our population has and will grow, so investment is needed, and infrastructure is at that ripe old age to be replaced or renewed (City's neighbourhood renewal). The issue today is paying for it with a system of yesterday's austerity and mindset. My parents (mid' 50's) recognize we got "out of the mess" voted for early-time Ralph, hated Ralph-Bucks, but recognize too we made some mistakes and need to re-invest. Carbon Tax? I see it as a "sales tax" to transit, and other projects that offset congestion and issues of commutes that we see benefits down the line. But that's the point... dedicated taxes to dedicated investment goals. Carbon Tax for Carbon Tax sake...? No. Buses, LRT, and infrastructure...? Yes. GenY grew up in both eras. Our parents got hit in the 80's with the downturn, hit by Ralph as it delayed its effect, and are being hit my the price of oil today. Today, though, I think this generation knows smart investment means the benefit of all. I want less property tax and more consumer tax. I want more money for schools. It has to come from somewhere. I've been in enough schools and know enough teachers to see schools need more money for renovations and supplies. Anyway... One GenY member sees little benefit to the "Advantage"... my immediate kin agree, but we're urbanistas.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    I want less property tax and more consumer tax.


    I want a few things, and my property tax going up isn't one of them. They voted to raise it, and raise it they did!

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    Personally I'm not against paying additional taxes towards building infrastructure for our two major urban centres.

    After all, infrastructure is a "pay me now or pay me ten times later" beast.
    The world is full of kings and queens, who blind your eyes then steal your dreams.
    It's heaven and hell!

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    ^Agree. ^^Agree.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post

    Try googling solar factories. I know its a year old( the link) do you think sales are going through the roof? Think again.
    My god, before you tell someone to google something, please ensure you're not exactly wrong yourself.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Try googling solar factories. I know its a year old( the link) do you think sales are going through the roof? Think again.
    It would appear only one of us is actually capable of thinking. The link I provided clearly shows that installations are indeed going through the roof. Just because one company goes out of business, does not mean an entire industry is shrinking. The main concern in terms of the business of PV solar is that prices have cratered as technology has improved, which has resulted in some companies, like the one you linked, going out of business. And there's legitimate concerns about China flooding the market to drive out competition. But in terms of installed capacity, it has been increasing by 50% a year for nearly 20 years, although that pace has slowed in the last few years as the overall industry has gotten much, much larger. That trend would lead to something like 30% of the world's total power consumption being met by solar (both PV and thermal concentration) by 2050, according to the IEA: http://www.iea.org/publications/free...014edition.pdf
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 31-05-2017 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Try googling solar factories. I know its a year old( the link) do you think sales are going through the roof? Think again.
    It would appear only one of us is actually capable of thinking. The link I provided clearly shows that installations are indeed going through the roof. Just because one company goes out of business, does not mean an entire industry is shrinking. The main concern in terms of the business of PV solar is that prices have cratered as technology has improved, which has resulted in some companies, like the one you linked, going out of business. And there's legitimate concerns about China flooding the market to drive out competition. But in terms of installed capacity, it has been increasing by 50% a year for nearly 20 years, although that pace has slowed in the last few years as the overall industry has gotten much, much larger. That trend would lead to something like 30% of the world's total power consumption being met by solar (both PV and thermal concentration) by 2050, according to the IEA: http://www.iea.org/publications/free...014edition.pdf

    Where IN Edmonton is this happening, the going through the roof part?

  56. #56

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    The installation of small-scale micro generation sites in Edmonton is increasing at a near-exponential rate. It's only been in the last 12-18 months where the install of the panels doesn't require a lot of comprehensive rewiring of your panel & power metering to get them to report the consumption & generation. As the ease & cost has come down the install rate has gone up.

    Source: It's my job to track/monitor/report them.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post


    Where IN Edmonton is this happening, the going through the roof part?

    Usually ON the roof. I've noticed lots of small installations on new homes, and the install on Dubs 107st building (Edge) is bigger than anything else we've seen.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L.
    Where IN Edmonton is this happening, the going through the roof part?


    First of all, you're moving the goal posts. The discussion was about the overall solar industry, not specific to Edmonton or Alberta. Or at least, that's what I assumed considering you posted a link to a story about SunEdison, which is located in California.

    Second, as mentioned above, there has been a significant increase in solar installations recently, as can be seen in numerous places. Manasc Isaac's installation on their building, Dub's on his, or the numerous solar installations on the subsidized housing in Westmount:
    https://goo.gl/maps/pEKyJPrpUZu

    Do you ever tire of being so massively misinformed? Or is it comforting residing in your low information bubble?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L.
    Where IN Edmonton is this happening, the going through the roof part?


    First of all, you're moving the goal posts. The discussion was about the overall solar industry, not specific to Edmonton or Alberta. Or at least, that's what I assumed considering you posted a link to a story about SunEdison, which is located in California.

    Second, as mentioned above, there has been a significant increase in solar installations recently, as can be seen in numerous places. Manasc Isaac's installation on their building, Dub's on his, or the numerous solar installations on the subsidized housing in Westmount:
    https://goo.gl/maps/pEKyJPrpUZu

    Do you ever tire of being so massively misinformed? Or is it comforting residing in your low information bubble?
    I just like messing with your head, which , is very easily done...ciao! Oh, so not much in Edmonton then, LOL :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L.;83039Its Du2


    Where IN Edmonton is this happening, the going through the roof part?


    Usually ON the roof. I've noticed lots of small installations on new homes, and the install on Dubs 107st building (Edge) is bigger than anything else we've seen.
    No way, on the roof! omg..as for Dubs, of course its big, he of the big ugly art gallery

  61. #61

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    Dub didn't design the AGA, that was Randall Stout.

    Dub did City Hall & the beloved Baccarat Casino.

    (I'm sure you're gonna be "just joking" about being wrong here too.)
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Dub didn't design the AGA, that was Randall Stout.

    Dub did City Hall & the beloved Baccarat Casino.

    (I'm sure you're gonna be "just joking" about being wrong here too.)
    to be fair to gene, the beloved baccarat was supposed to be a short-term throw away building - it was never meant to still be there 30 years later (another unintended consequence of dc zoning?). as well as city hall, you would also have to note the alberta hotel, the macleod block, the new jasper place library, the initial lemarchand mansion restoration along with the adjacent tower, the carlisle, and the quarters' hyatt hotel amongst many others...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    There is a strip of grass along the east side of the Baccarat along 101 street.

    For Top_Dawg, this area is a never ending source of entertainment.

    About six weeks ago Top_Dawg was driving south along 101 street heading into the core.

    Had to be either an early Saturday or Sunday morning.

    And by the fence line where it recedes a little bit, there's these two down and out bumboolas unpacking a brand new Vespa type motor scooter right out of the box.

    Obviously stolen somewhere.

    Top_Dawg had to laugh.

    To boot, Top_Dawg saw the open box lying there by the fence for weeks.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I think premier Clark's decision to support the trans mountain line cost her too many votes.
    I don't think so, polls show most people in BC support Trans Mountain. I think its just voter fatigue, the Liberals have been in power for a long time in BC (16 years). The campaign financing donations scandal hurt the Liberals badly as well (B.C. is well behind Alberta and other provinces in that respect). I just don't understand what they are trying to do in B.C., the NDP and greens talk about raising social living standards, but then are in the same breath trying to shut down the type of projects that are needed to maintain those living standards (let alone improve them). These big projects would inject billions into the BC economy, and hundreds of millions of dollars to indigenous communities (most of whom are directly affected - support the projects).
    BC's political makeup has the majority of the power in the Lower Mainland. The interior and north BC tends to be more aligned to Albertans in many respects...but that doesn't help at the polls when the votes are cast. This is the interesting thing...pipelines, and even transmission lines...would face a lot less opposition if the builders and the governments made sure that the environment was respected, and landowners were properly compensated...or even made shareholders (gasp of gasps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^They think they are going to up the standard of living by creating 'green' jobs. Solar panels, unicorn farts and balloons and all that.
    I don't know, solar panels probably work better in sunny Alberta than in rainy BC.
    ...I will see your solar in Alberta, and raise you one Fort McMurray 550kV HVDC powerline that is being built to funnel power from bitumen to the grid. I asked for solar to be put on my land so that I could at least get some better compensation for the destruction of my nature preserves by this unnecessary powerline...and was told flat out it won't happen...because it won't make money. Connecting to the world's alleged third largest supply of hydrocarbon energy simply makes power generation via solar moot.
    I am not an expert in BC politics, but I think if we in Alberta want things to move forward we are going to have to learn the nuances of it fast. I think the lower mainland voters are somewhat swing voters - this time they voted NDP, but in the past they voted for the Liberals too. The Greens are strongest on Vancouver Island where all of their 3 seats are. They have no seats in the lower mainland. Undoubtedly having the proposed pipeline end in Burnaby has made this more of an issue in the lower mainland than it might have otherwise been. I think the opposition to it there is as much NIMBYism as environmentalism, much of their concern is around local safety, rather than wanting the world to stop burning oil.

    Building or developing anything in BC is challenging with all the various First Nations and other groups that need to agree for things to proceed. It is difficult if not impossible to please everyone - if 98 groups agree, but two are opposed the headlines will still read "Some First Nations oppose the development". It is also hard to address safety concerns as nothing is ever 100% safe. The overall economic advantages from development need to outweigh the potential risks. Of course, the perspective on that is different in some parts of BC than in Alberta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I just like messing with your head, which , is very easily done...ciao! Oh, so not much in Edmonton then, LOL :P
    The only thing you're accomplishing is embarrassing yourself and demonstrating your gleeful ignorance. Par for the course, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I just like messing with your head, which , is very easily done...ciao! Oh, so not much in Edmonton then, LOL :P
    The only thing you're accomplishing is embarrassing yourself and demonstrating your gleeful ignorance. Par for the course, I guess.

    I really don't care, coming from a blowhard know it all!( par for the course) LOL

  67. #67

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    Hmm.


    Soooo, where in all the above was the role of our policy "build on Alberta’s existing advantage of low taxes and its free enterprise spirit to develop the most competitive economy in North America" - Ralph Klein





    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post


    My question: How well did "The Alberta Advantage" actually work?

    Please don't discuss the 'means to this end'. Or whether 'the end justified the means'. The question is: did the end result actually work...?

    ...

    Moreover the Alberta Advantage was an exceedingly rare example in the world of creating a deregulated, debt free, zero sales tax, business friendly environment plus with a kicker of a personal flat tax environment. It's amazing that it's not studied* in depth as a guide to finding out what works and what doesn't.

    [b]So just assuming the "means justified the end", how well did the "Alberta Advantage" perform? ...

    What metrics would you consider as useful in assessing the policy impact?

    ...
    *corrected typo
    Last edited by KC; 31-05-2017 at 03:19 PM.

  68. #68

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    We have a house on the island where we wish to retire , so are opposed to a pipeline in fear of a spill as the economy is heavily dependent on tourism and it's buetiful environment. An oil spill would ruin that...and not worth taking chances for and...

    Before Notely talks about protecting the environment . Then how come under her leadership we had the largest pipeline spill in Alberta history ? ( Opti-nexen ) . A double wall line, the most advanced, only 2 years old , gushed for months ! with out any warning, safeguards, or monitoring . As an old pipeliner she can't fool me ! Much like her carbon tax scam...lshe just money hungry for her big bloated government.

    I also don't agree with other provinces meddling in other provincial affairs. ..she seeming more like a dictator.
    Last edited by champking; 31-05-2017 at 07:01 PM.

  69. #69

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    Very interesting as a retrospective:

    Cities Shortchanged

    Cutbacks and "downloading" forces cities into a tight spot

    BY MARK LOWEY JANUARY 1, 2002

    https://albertaviews.ca/cities-shortchanged/

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