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Thread: Canadian sniper makes worlds longest kill - 10 seconds for bullet to fly

  1. #1

    Default Canadian sniper makes worlds longest kill - 10 seconds for bullet to fly

    Wow.

    A Canadian sniper has reportedly killed an Islamic State fighter in Iraq with a bullet fired more than 3 kilometres away.

    It's a shot that has stunned the military world, and, if confirmed, would shatter the current world record for a kill shot in military combat by almost a kilometre.

    A member of Canada's Joint Task Force 2 shot the "insurgent" from a distance of 3450 metres during an operation in the past month, The Globe and Mail reports.

    The shot was fired from a McMillan TAC-50 sniper rifle from a high-rise building in the area and required the sniper to take into account not only wind and distance, but also the curvature of the Earth.

    It took just less than 10 seconds to hit its target.

    The shot, verified by video, disrupted an IS attack on Iraqi security forces and was considered appropriate given the situation, multiple sources told The Globe and Mail.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/america...ired-35km-away

  2. #2

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    I think the math is wrong. It states 35km and 10 seconds in the URL.

    The bullet takes about a second to travel 3 km.
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  3. #3

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    ^agreed - it doesn't look right.

    Canada has 3 of the top 5 kills on the list.

    WORLD'S LONGEST KILL SHOTS:
    1. Canada: 3450m, Iraq, 2017 (to be confirmed)
    2. UK: 2475m, Afghanistan, 2009
    3. Canada: 2430m, Afghanistan, 2002
    4. Canada: 2310m, Afghanistan, 2002
    5. US: 2300m, Iraq, 2004
    I wanna movie - "North American Sniper"

  4. #4
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    10 seconds would make sense, as that's just slightly faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets do not travel at Mach 10. It would initially be travelling at much faster than 340 m/s, but would slow down in flight. Maybe 10 seconds is too long, but it wouldn't be a second.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I think the math is wrong. It states 35km and 10 seconds in the URL.

    The bullet takes about a second to travel 3 km.
    Just to note it was against the wind. I'm not doing the math, heh heh.

    Also the bullet was shot from a "high rise building" and without that one wonders if this would have been a dissipated speed velocity. Air Friction as far as I faintly recall decreases bullet velocity. The sniper also compensated for the wind, curvature of the earth, distance, gravity (another vector force slowing bullet) so that he would have shot at an up trajectory.

    This is Iraq so sand, dust in the atmosphere could even be an extraneous factor impacting velocity.

    Just saying these could be factors involved impacting velocity.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  6. #6

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    Here's the Wikipedia article on Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2), as well as their official FAQ. They keep a very low profile, but are Canada's answer to Seal Team 6, Delta Force and the SAS, and are well respected amont the spec ops community. It's not often they get some limelight, but its good to see them get some credit for their professionalism, without compromising their operational security. Great job, and thank you for your service! The same, of course, to all our Canadian Forces member, thank you!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    10 seconds would make sense, as that's just slightly faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets do not travel at Mach 10. It would initially be travelling at much faster than 340 m/s, but would slow down in flight. Maybe 10 seconds is too long, but it wouldn't be a second.
    I think people are mistakenly calculating initial velocity and simply multiplying by distance. Of course initial velocity and impact velocity are never the same. Velocity decreases, and at this distance greatly. For instance had this bullet not been fired from a high rise building allowing it to travel a greater distance than its long range velocity otherwise allowed. That could be one of the keys in this being a record distance sniper kill.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  8. #8

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    Take that Donald Trump. We may not send as many, but we send the best!
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    10 seconds would make sense, as that's just slightly faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets do not travel at Mach 10. It would initially be travelling at much faster than 340 m/s, but would slow down in flight. Maybe 10 seconds is too long, but it wouldn't be a second.
    I think people are mistakenly calculating initial velocity and simply multiplying by distance. Of course initial velocity and impact velocity are never the same. Velocity decreases, and at this distance greatly. For instance had this bullet not been fired from a high rise building allowing it to travel a greater distance than its long range velocity otherwise allowed. That could be one of the keys in this being a record distance sniper kill.
    In reading the original Globe and Mail article, it's pretty apparent that they just used the speed of sound and said the bullet would have traveled the distance in less than that speed. That rifle has a muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s, or just under Mach 2.5. As far as the height of the building goes, it wouldn't have any significant impact on the time of flight. Maybe a millisecond or two.

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    That's the distance from CBD to anywhere in blatchford. Quite the feat.

  12. #12

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    My post was wrong too. I meant to say that a sniper bullet travels a km per second, not the entire distance in a second. Top end sniper bullets travel at 1000m/s and loose velocity to target. At 3.5 km, 4 to 5 seconds is the approximate time, not 10 seconds as reported.
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    10 seconds would make sense, as that's just slightly faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets do not travel at Mach 10. It would initially be travelling at much faster than 340 m/s, but would slow down in flight. Maybe 10 seconds is too long, but it wouldn't be a second.
    I think people are mistakenly calculating initial velocity and simply multiplying by distance. Of course initial velocity and impact velocity are never the same. Velocity decreases, and at this distance greatly. For instance had this bullet not been fired from a high rise building allowing it to travel a greater distance than its long range velocity otherwise allowed. That could be one of the keys in this being a record distance sniper kill.
    In reading the original Globe and Mail article, it's pretty apparent that they just used the speed of sound and said the bullet would have traveled the distance in less than that speed. That rifle has a muzzle velocity of around 800 m/s, or just under Mach 2.5. As far as the height of the building goes, it wouldn't have any significant impact on the time of flight. Maybe a millisecond or two.
    The only reason I mentioned height is that it does impact in some way. i.e. the bullet travels somewhat longer, and at lower terminal velocity, due to that added height. In effect for instance if you shoot straight, without trajectory, the bullet will travel longer if shot from 10 floors high vs ground level. Thus the bullet shot from higher elevation due to travelling longer is subject to more velocity decrease due to vector of gravity and factor or air friction resistance. I mentioned earlier even that air in Iraq containing high particulate matter, dust, possibly offers even more air friction resistance due to its composition.

    People do the math, but sometimes without fully compensating for every real world value and variable existing in the actual instance. I suspect if they said just under 10 secs that's pretty much what it was.
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    Amazing feat. Soon this may become common place rather than merely extraordinary. The prospect is rather frightening.

    Guided sniper bullet
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  15. #15

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    He had to compensate for temperature, wind, barometric pressure and even the earths rotation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    He had to compensate for temperature, wind, barometric pressure and even the earths rotation...
    Well technically the ballistic aiming calculator did the math...
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  17. #17

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    Well I certainly hope that the recipient appreciates all the effort that went into the record breaking shot.
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    He had to compensate for temperature, wind, barometric pressure and even the earths rotation...
    And then the Sheer Luck of it. Unless this guy was sitting, 5 to 10 seconds is a long time.

    Target coulda bent over to scratch a toe. Shuffled over a step. Get called away. etc

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    Its quite a feat for sure.
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  20. #20

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    Interesting articles here (below). The tactic of using snipers appears to fall into a gray zone in terms of "morality". Drones too I suppose.

    https://m.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/28/sniper_feature/


    http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/20/en...eet/index.html



    In readidjng the first article above, seems that I'll have to start paying more attention to when and how the word "cowardly" is being used by all the officials after various attacks. In sniper shooting, bombing, etc. of enemy soldiers the commonly used "cowardly attack" phraseology doesn't appear legitimate, but if civilians are attacked then it the use of cowardice does apply - I think.


    Seems to be an improper usage here:

    Afghanistan: 140 soldiers die in Mazar-i-Sharif terror attack, PM Modi decries 'cowardly' act
    http://m.indiatoday.in/story/narendr.../1/935372.html
    Last edited by KC; 23-06-2017 at 02:10 PM.

  21. #21

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    A sniper can fall into the same class as artillery that is miles away, bombers at 40,000 ft and missiles. Often the targets have no ability to retaliate.

    The shot by a Canadian sniper brings into Canada an active combat role instead of training and support
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post



    In sniper shooting, bombing, etc. of enemy soldiers the commonly used "cowardly attack" phraseology doesn't appear legitimate, but if civilians are attacked then it the use of cowardice does apply - I think.



    I agree. In deciding the morality of an act of war, the distinction between civilian deaths/soldier deaths is more important than "cowardly/not cowardly". Assuming the person you're killing deserves it, it shouldn't matter how much risk there is to you personally.

    That said, any Canadian who a) is cheering on this accomplishment but b) supports us maintaining a non-combat role only, needs to do some serious thinking about his position.

  23. #23

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    There is nothing to cheer in any of this.

    As for "deserving to die", anyone who says this while at the same time condemning others for cheering someone's death or wishing someone were dead, is completely beyond the pale.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 24-06-2017 at 06:36 PM.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    There is nothing to cheer in any of this.

    As for "deserving to die", anyone who says this while at the same time condemning others for cheering someone's death or wishing someone were dead, is completely beyond the pale.
    and you probably think hunting is wrong/cruel as well. This sniper made a world record shot deemed impossible by anyone. There is lots one could cheer for in this. One could be happy their training was successful or that other lives were saved by taking out that sniper.

    Personally it boggles my mind at how far the shot was.

  25. #25

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    The target is ISIS, I cheer, unconditionally, with not the slightest bit of moral deliberation.

    Any ISIS fighter deserves to die. Kill them all before they kill so many innocent others.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  26. #26

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    Can't wait for the vitriol when ISIS lands a wildly successful hit on Canadians. The hypocrisy will be stunning.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Can't wait for the vitriol when ISIS lands a wildly successful hit on Canadians. The hypocrisy will be stunning.
    Only if they kill Canadians who are buying and selling sex slaves, destroying religious relics, torturing people, and generally just being incredibly evil.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Can't wait for the vitriol when ISIS lands a wildly successful hit on Canadians. The hypocrisy will be stunning.
    Yeah, those poor ISIS troops - all they want to do is kidnap children, sell people on slave markets, rape women, chop people's heads off for being the "wrong" religion, and murder everyone who doesn't do everything they command. I mean, Canada is exactly as bad as that, right?

    Poor ISIS.

  29. #29

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    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    It isn't the same. Ruthlessly killing innocents, women, and children for pure murderous sensationalism vs an exacted, exact, targeted shot of an ISIS militant killer.

    Yeah, not the same, at all.

    We're not killing over ideologies, what a tawdry thing to take from this. The battle is against a ruthless killing faction that will stop at nothing to continue to kill until they are eradicated from Earth. Which I'm fine with seeing happen.

    Question. If somebody put a bullet in Charles Mansons head decades ago would they be the same as Charles Manson? That's the logical trail you're attempting to walk.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-06-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Celebrating a technical accomplishment is fine.
    Celebrating a battle win by our side over their side is fine. (As the failure to win often, if not always, means a loss by our side).
    Being honest that we can be as ruthless as an enemy is fine. (...because war is war and any signed conventions, bans on the use of certain weapons, etc. will be tossed aside to avoid loosing and dying.)

    Lastly, I suppose denegrating the soldiers and killers of the other side is fine, even though I believe there were once some conventions of war about honour, etc. but for a few hundred years now gorilla style warfare seems to increasingly ruled.

    As for killing members of ISIS, we can't say that they are all evil. Many 'soldiers' may just be trying to stay alive themselves and playing no role in the practices that we see as evil. Nonetheless, they can't act as free thinking individuals but will instead follow orders just as we would. They are just tools to be used by the leadership as the leadership sees fit. Same for our soldiers. They all know that, so they know it is simple decision of kill them before those on our side are killed. Basically, once the ball is in motion...
    Last edited by KC; 26-06-2017 at 12:54 PM.

  32. #32

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    the isis sniper was actively shooting at people. If your concerned more about the canadian sniper then the lives he saved then you're an *****.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    There is nothing to cheer in any of this.

    As for "deserving to die", anyone who says this while at the same time condemning others for cheering someone's death or wishing someone were dead, is completely beyond the pale.
    We all have different and often seemingly contradictory and hypocritical standards.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    the isis sniper was actively shooting at people. If your concerned more about the canadian sniper then the lives he saved then you're an *****.
    I don't think it's much of a matter of lives saved per se, except lives on our side, and avoiding the loss of civilian lives:

    Canadian sniper hits ISIS militant with record-setting shot | CTV News
    Excerpt:

    "Canadian snipers had spotted ISIS members preparing for an ambush against an advancing Iraqi unit. The Canadians dismissed calling in an airstrike because there were women and children in the nearby vicinity. Instead, the sniper took a long shot and one of the ISIS soldiers was hit and killed by the bullet.
    In an interview with CTV News, Canadian Special Operations Forces Commander, Maj.-Gen. Michael Rouleau explained how the shot happened.
    “In that moment, my elements made an assessment of how they could disrupt the attack before they started killing Iraqi army forces,” Rouleau said. “They [ISIS] had no idea where it [the bullet] was coming from and that’s what resulted in the attack being dispersed.”

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/...shot-1.3471687
    Last edited by KC; 26-06-2017 at 01:06 PM.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Celebrating a technical accomplishment is fine.
    Celebrating a battle win by our side over their side is fine. (As the failure to win often, if not always, means a loss by our side).
    Being honest that we can be as ruthless as an enemy is fine. (...because war is war and any signed conventions, bans on the use of certain weapons, etc. will be tossed aside to avoid loosing and dying.)

    Lastly, I suppose denegrating the soldiers and killers of the other side is fine, even though I believe there were once some conventions of war about honour, etc. but for a few hundred years now gorilla style warfare seems to increasingly ruled.

    As for killing members of ISIS, we can't say that they are all evil. Many 'soldiers' may just be trying to stay alive themselves and playing no role in the practices that we see as evil. Nonetheless, they can't act as free thinking individuals but will instead follow orders just as we would. They are just tools to be used by the leadership as the leadership sees fit. Same for our soldiers. They all know that, so they know it is simple decision of kill them before those on our side are killed. Basically, once the ball is in motion...
    I don't buy it anymore than I buy the excuse that Germans were told what to do and think and had no choice. I'm of German descent saying that. Hitler took the nation down an evil path. But a susceptibility to such evil existed in the german psyche which they have been guarded against ever since.

    Humans, and societies and cultures exist within potential polarities. If you succumb to evil, you have allowed yourself to be evil. To do evils bidding.

    How much of ISIS as well is made up of murder loving recruits from around the world (Including sadly Canada) that were drawn to this ultimate murderous, mercenary role?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    the isis sniper was actively shooting at people. If your concerned more about the canadian sniper then the lives he saved then you're an *****.
    I don't think it's much of a matter of lives saved per se, except lives on our side.
    Its more than just the lives. Its the countless lives of peoples torn from their communities, from friends, families, any living or worth that they had and fleeing for their lives. The cost of which is immeasurable. Nor do I think its quid pro. All the ISIS terrorists lives put together count for nothing. Its arguable that they all stopped actually being human years ago if they ever were.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  37. #37

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    Taken together, two interesting responses.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Clearly you are an ISIS sympathizer.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Taken together, two interesting responses.
    Feel free to elaborate. I don't mind seeing rebuttal. Not that I think I'm going to be very flexible on this one.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Clearly you are an ISIS sympathizer.
    Clearly.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Celebrating a technical accomplishment is fine.
    Celebrating a battle win by our side over their side is fine. (As the failure to win often, if not always, means a loss by our side).
    Being honest that we can be as ruthless as an enemy is fine. (...because war is war and any signed conventions, bans on the use of certain weapons, etc. will be tossed aside to avoid loosing and dying.)

    Lastly, I suppose denegrating the soldiers and killers of the other side is fine, even though I believe there were once some conventions of war about honour, etc. but for a few hundred years now gorilla style warfare seems to increasingly ruled.

    As for killing members of ISIS, we can't say that they are all evil. Many 'soldiers' may just be trying to stay alive themselves and playing no role in the practices that we see as evil. Nonetheless, they can't act as free thinking individuals but will instead follow orders just as we would. They are just tools to be used by the leadership as the leadership sees fit. Same for our soldiers. They all know that, so they know it is simple decision of kill them before those on our side are killed. Basically, once the ball is in motion...
    I don't buy it anymore than I buy the excuse that Germans were told what to do and think and had no choice. I'm of German descent saying that. Hitler took the nation down an evil path. But a susceptibility to such evil existed in the german psyche which they have been guarded against ever since.

    Humans, and societies and cultures exist within potential polarities. If you succumb to evil, you have allowed yourself to be evil. To do evils bidding.

    How much of ISIS as well is made up of murder loving recruits from around the world (Including sadly Canada) that were drawn to this ultimate murderous, mercenary role?
    The rank and file German soldiers were not privy to Hitlers inner circle. They did not make the rules they just followed them. If they did not obey rules they could be shot or flung in jail or military prison. In a sense they were no better off than any military person fighting wars. They are basically just doing their governments bidding. If they did not their fate could be dire. Now, is ISIS even classed as a recognized army. I don't think the IRA ever were. Any group can call themselves an army but weather they are officially recognized as one is another matter. I think governments recognize ISIS as a terrorist group but definitely not a bone-fide army therefore they do not fight under and Geneva Convention. ISIS probably do shot and kill their own soldiers if they don't follow orders or defect. I use the term soldier loosely as they are terrorists.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  42. #42

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    I knew some of those German soldiers. Including my dad. He started out as a Hitler youth but was loading anti aircraft cannons and put in battle positions by the time he was 14. He was highly intelligent, not easily duped, but as a poor and peasant german, basically starving in a poor family he and his brothers believed in Hitler. Not just believing in bread and work projects and sustenance either. They followed him, they would do anything for him, and, I say this very carefully, they bought the hate, hook, line, and sinker. Primarily because people repressed in brutal times want to believe there is a simple enemy, and a simple solution, and are susceptible to that type of message. Its why the between war reparations and conditions Germany was put under were dangerous.

    With a lot of these ex German soliders that survived, or Nazi's that survived, they'll say one thing publicly and quite another to family or inner circle. My dad was warped by this nature of delusion that Hitler offered till the day he died 70yrs later. He never renounced him or all his atrocity, that's the reality. I challenged him lots of times to do so. To admit the wrongs, make some sort of peace. I think in a nutshell for these hard cases to admit that Hitler was wrong is to admit that they were wrong. That they did the worst, that they killed people (my father was later a soldier but would never talk about that, but you knew, the reverence was in the eyes. He had killed in combat, I'll never know the whole of it.

    In short though my dad was not a follower. He was a fierce, stubborn force and more inclined to be challenging. (we shared at least that much) He had a temper too and I've never seen anybody get away with telling him what to do. So this wasn't pull, he was full in for the push. He believed in what he was doing, believed in the war, and was even a Holocaust denier. Not isolated either. I heard lots of old country Germans talking like that in select company of others.


    It was terrible having that growing up. I'm not a bigot, but I was certainly raised by one. I'm fascinated though in the topic and have read a lot about how later generations of the 3rd reich are impacted. For me its a life long feeling that my heritage is dirty. Which is a shame. Theres been Germans that have made good contributions to the world. Unfortunately out influenced by the worst leader ever that tarnished an entire nation forever.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-06-2017 at 05:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    He believed in what he was doing, believed in the war, and was even a Holocaust denier. Not isolated either. I heard lots of old country Germans talking like that in select company of others.
    Interesting, I know someone who was a young teen at the time of the war and was also a member of the Hitler Youth. I've had some interesting debates with him over the years and while he acknowledges that Hitler and the Nazis were scum he is often an apologist for Germany's aggression, complained about the reparations Germany had to pay and often expresses his negative impression of Israel and Jews in general. Obviously his attitudes go beyond merely his indoctrination in the Hitler Youth.
    Last edited by norwoodguy; 27-06-2017 at 12:30 AM. Reason: typo
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  44. #44

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    ^there is a longstanding jealousy in continental Europe towards the success that Jewish people had. I don't think its a German phenomenon but rather a European one, and I think it is getting weaker with the current generation (its still out there though, you see nonsense posted about Rothschilds controlling central banks and similar). Its important not to mix that up though with a dislike of what Israel has done to Palestinian people, as some people try to do. You will find racisim in almost every country - in many African countries its tribal (people are elected to government just based on what tribe they are in), in India its caste, in places like Malaysia you find backlash against Chinese in favor of indigenous Malay. Those are serious issues, but its only a few people in a few places who exploit those types of situations, like ISIS has.
    Last edited by moahunter; 27-06-2017 at 08:04 AM.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by norwoodguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    He believed in what he was doing, believed in the war, and was even a Holocaust denier. Not isolated either. I heard lots of old country Germans talking like that in select company of others.
    Interesting, I know someone who was a young teen at the time of the war and was also a member of the Hitler Youth. I've had some interesting debates with him over the years and while he acknowledges that Hitler and the Nazis were scum he is often an apologist for Germany's aggression, complained about the reparations Germany had to pay and often expresses his negative impression of Israel and Jews in general. Obviously his attitudes go beyond merely his indoctrination in the Hitler Youth.
    Thanks for reading it. But as I stated if you are in close circle, or a family member, the degree of disclosure becomes even greater. My father would hide some of his more outlandish beliefs from public, where there would be sanction for expressing the same. But he would let loose in certain company. As I mentioned the most disappointing thing is he never came to terms with this. He believed in the Nazi evil until he died. That's a sad thing, but its fairly uniform from what I've witnessed, and read.

    You are correct that the anti-semite disposition goes beyond the indoctrination. German people were preprepared for this. Theres a lot of great books out there that tackle some of this. The tragic thing is I've forgot some of the titles, alas that happens with age.

    Just as an aside one of the oddest things is how the bias and prejudice was so one sided. My father voiced anti-seminism while being very accepting of first nations peoples, black people, other minorities (except Gypsies). He would go out of his way to give a first nations person a job, or any other targeted or disadvantaged person. He would be passionate about that too and really respected first nations peoples. So he was a study in contrasts.

    One of the most fascinating things is watching a series like "All in the family" where my father got to laugh and share in the portrayal about Archie Bunkers bigotry. His responses and commentary about Archie Bunker indicated that he knew bigotry was inherently wrong, yet....
    Last edited by Replacement; 27-06-2017 at 11:12 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  46. #46

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    I thought Hitler's Youth was more or less compulsory. Kids had no choice in the matter. That it got to be a way of life. I remember once watching an interview and the interviewer said to the guy very disparagingly that the person he was interviewing was part of Hitler's Youth movement. The guy said he had no choice in the matter, every kid was expected to join.



    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...outh-movement/
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  47. #47
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    Yah 10 seconds does seem a bit long for that distance, but the reports do say less than 10 seconds. The sound would be around 10 seconds after the shot though.

    I knew sniper who was in Vietnam, he didn't tell many stories, but he once said, once he confirmed his hit, he immediately started moving his position as he had a few seconds before the enemy realized what direction the shot came from.

  48. #48

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    Going further astray here but I think indoctrination of people when they are fairly young seems to leave them with fixed beliefs that they assume as factual and even later in life refuse to question.


    A German-Canadian’s anguish over the Second World War | Vancouver Sun

    http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-b...cond-world-war


    Child soldiers taken by ISIS reveal how they were told to kill their parents | Daily Mail Online

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...n-refused.html


    ISIS child soldiers hunt down and kill terrified prisoners in sick new Call of Duty-style video - as it’s revealed terror group is now BANKRUPT

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/319569...ier-execution/
    Last edited by KC; 27-06-2017 at 02:43 PM.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Making the kill is justified. The fact that we praise our ability to kill with ruthless efficiency makes us the same as them. It's the celebration that is gross. That drags us towards their level, in that we go from doing a job to celebrating killing over ideologies.
    Clearly you are an ISIS sympathizer.
    Clearly.

    When are you going to preach to all of us how killing ISIS is a form of 'Islamophobia"?

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    the isis sniper was actively shooting at people. If your concerned more about the canadian sniper then the lives he saved then you're an *****.
    I don't think it's much of a matter of lives saved per se, except lives on our side.
    Its more than just the lives. Its the countless lives of peoples torn from their communities, from friends, families, any living or worth that they had and fleeing for their lives. The cost of which is immeasurable. Nor do I think its quid pro. All the ISIS terrorists lives put together count for nothing. Its arguable that they all stopped actually being human years ago if they ever were.
    Further to your point:

    Yazidi sex slave forced to eat her son after ISIS butchered him | New York Post

    http://nypost.com/2017/06/27/isis-tr...her-young-son/

    Subject to some common sense skepticism of course.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    the isis sniper was actively shooting at people. If your concerned more about the canadian sniper then the lives he saved then you're an *****.
    I don't think it's much of a matter of lives saved per se, except lives on our side.
    Its more than just the lives. Its the countless lives of peoples torn from their communities, from friends, families, any living or worth that they had and fleeing for their lives. The cost of which is immeasurable. Nor do I think its quid pro. All the ISIS terrorists lives put together count for nothing. Its arguable that they all stopped actually being human years ago if they ever were.
    Further to your point:

    Yazidi sex slave forced to eat her son after ISIS butchered him | New York Post

    http://nypost.com/2017/06/27/isis-tr...her-young-son/

    Subject to some common sense skepticism of course.
    Article aside I hadn't realized how entirely the NY Post had become sensationalistic trash. The online version probably worse, but man, this ain't the Times...although the NY Times probably isn't up to par either any more.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  52. #52
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    Article aside I hadn't realized how entirely the NY Post had become sensationalistic trash.
    I think it's been that way for a while now. From 1983...

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  53. #53

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    When it comes to the 10-second flight skepticism mentioned eariler, you have to remember that for this distance, you have a VERY high arc. The sniper isn't shooting AT the target, he's shooting up into the sky. This adds a lot of travel time.

  54. #54

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    Mentioned it;

    These are the factors as far as I see it

    -height of shot fired in a "highrise" possibly allowed bullet to travel a greater distance, and a greater distance with decreased velocity. So much so that a similar shot fired from same place at ground level may have already hit ground.

    -Gravity vector decrease on speed

    -Air resistance decrease in speed
    -Dust resistance decrease in speed (This is Iraq after all, the particulate matter would typically be a lot higher than here.)
    -Weight of bullet
    -Trajectory as you mention


    Theres a lot of factors operating on that bullet that alter the original escape velocity of the bullet. We don't even know if the target was on a hill.

    They say it was 10 secs I would trust their word on it.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    They say it was 10 secs I would trust their word on it.


    Again, it all goes back to the original Globe and Mail article (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle35415651/) that simply said "It took under 10 seconds to hit the target." And that estimate was almost surely based only upon the speed of sound (which is around 340 m/s, depending on altitude and other factors), given it gives the same result.

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Mentioned it;

    These are the factors as far as I see it

    -height of shot fired in a "highrise" possibly allowed bullet to travel a greater distance, and a greater distance with decreased velocity. So much so that a similar shot fired from same place at ground level may have already hit ground.

    -Gravity vector decrease on speed

    -Air resistance decrease in speed
    -Dust resistance decrease in speed (This is Iraq after all, the particulate matter would typically be a lot higher than here.)
    -Weight of bullet
    -Trajectory as you mention


    Theres a lot of factors operating on that bullet that alter the original escape velocity of the bullet. We don't even know if the target was on a hill.

    They say it was 10 secs I would trust their word on it.
    I don't know what kind of "highrise" buildings there are in Iraq, but it could very well be only 16 stories, maybe less. Either way, at that distance, it would still be a shot aimed very high.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    They say it was 10 secs I would trust their word on it.


    Again, it all goes back to the original Globe and Mail article (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle35415651/) that simply said "It took under 10 seconds to hit the target." And that estimate was almost surely based only upon the speed of sound (which is around 340 m/s, depending on altitude and other factors), given it gives the same result.
    The spotter knows the count and is the one that calculates the shot's adjustments. Even though he has a better magnification and wider field of view than the shooter, he still needs an estimate of when the round will hit in case it's way off and he doesn't see it "hit the dirt". By this time, depending on distance, the target may have heard the shot or the hit. If not, the spotter makes an adjustment and they go for another shot. So yes, the spotter would have been counting the seconds till impact. Going by speed of sound is completely inaccurate.

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by alkeli View Post
    When it comes to the 10-second flight skepticism mentioned eariler, you have to remember that for this distance, you have a VERY high arc. The sniper isn't shooting AT the target, he's shooting up into the sky. This adds a lot of travel time.
    Correct

    Gravity is a constant 9.80665 m/s2

    Based upon a 5 second time to target, he would have to aim 122 meters ABOVE his target.
    If the time was 10 seconds, he would aim 490 meters above his target. The bullet would be dropping at 350kph* just from freefall alone. * not including air resistance

    Imagine shooting over the EPCOR tower and hitting a guy on the ground a couple of kilometers down range.

    Either way. one crazy shot
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    I don't know the exact situation, perhaps he was aiming at one specific person. Lets say you're a sniper and you are aiming at a crowd of enemies, hit one person in the crowd, would the shot count?

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    I don't know the exact situation, perhaps he was aiming at one specific person. Lets say you're a sniper and you are aiming at a crowd of enemies, hit one person in the crowd, would the shot count?
    Snipers won't hit random people. They have specific targets.

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