First sessions: July 12, 20, 22, 2017
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...t-edmonton-lrt
Centre LRT | Strathcona
First sessions: July 12, 20, 22, 2017
http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...t-edmonton-lrt
"Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.
On one hand, I'm glad we're moving forward on this.
On the other hand I feel like it's extremely premature & symptomatic of Edmonton's inability to focus on one thing at a time & getting it done. We don't know how the Valley Line will work in practice yet. We've got the west half of it to fund, plus the Metro Line extension, plus the Capital Line extension. It certainly seems like we'd get funding faster with a bit of focus & pruning off of far-off plans & a reallocation of those resources into managing & completing what's on our plate now.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
So what exactly is the current proposed plan for the low floor LRTs to cross the river?
The under-construction bridge. The circulator/centre LRT was always supposed to reuse a chunk of the Valley Line's infrastructure like the Metro/Capital lines do.Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
^ I meant on the west side. The only existing options would be on top of High Level (which to my understanding is rightly reserved by the Province for potential future HSR) or the capital line bridge (which seems unlikely as that'd mean three different lines sharing a single bridge and would require a fair amount of tunneling to get to from what I see).
That's TBD, as far as I know. The circulator was always deep in TBD-land, which is why I was intrigued when I got the notice in my mailbox yesterday. There's no corridor or alignment for it like there is for other planned lines like those I mentioned. I think this is the start of figuring that out.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
seems sonic might be on to something here.
High Level Bridge initially was on the original plan for the LRT, it is unsure if it will be used if the province decides to use the top deck for high speed rail (or even commuter rail). It is possible to build a tunnel from University to Whyte and leverage the existing LRT bridge.
We need to get our existing LRT to work reliably first.
The communication system is glitching all the time. One of my kids got on a train heading on the wrong line because it had the wrong station announced on the sign (mistakingly said 'Clareview' instead of 'NAIT'). Similar things have happened to others I know. On a puny system like ours this sort of crap is unacceptable.
^The trains really have been a mess lately and need to get working properly. It feels like the trains slow to crawl in a number of areas now that they didn't use to. The system really needs to be fixed up.
That said I feel that the city can do more than one thing at once.
So, this would go along the street, with cars in front and behind it, or in a separate space for just the LRT?
They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?
I wonder if building an overhead line in the alley between Whyte and 83 Avenue would work. There would be less cost with land expropriation.
Last edited by The_Cat; 13-07-2017 at 10:40 AM.
"Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.
The option I liked was to bring the low-floor off of a Y at 102ave/107st down 107st west on 99ave to connect with the high-level on the current street-car route and down whyte to 83 and then north.
I look forward to a time when we start asking the right question. It should be: "how can we improve transit in the Whyte Ave area?"
And stop these moronic LRT plans.
There is no good reason we should be planning an LRT here.
None.
There can only be one.
Why not?
That area absolutely needs LRT... Downtown and Old Stathcona are not properly connected. Here's a amateurish conceptual map I made...
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/ed...280704033&z=14
Can't decide if 83rd ave or Whyte is better. Trying to keep costs low and use the stations as opportunities to improve their locations.
The existing Valley Line google map:
https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...ctive-map.aspx
Go down a few dark alleys.
Because we need better transit and not necessarily LRT. We don't need LRT's capacity on Whyte if the current bus can run only every 15 minutes, and there's been no effort to improve speed, so that doesn't seem to be the issue....although LRT won't help there if it's the kind of LRT we've started building lately.
So is the point of LRT to spend lots of money and have a nice transit map?
For a tiny fraction of the money we can do a modern streetcar on the existing streetcar alignment, with improved connections to LRT at Grandin, and to Jasper ave. Run it every 10 minutes at 50km per hour.
Then make Whyte Ave buses frequent all day- every 5 minutes - with slightly wider stop spacing than now- every 2 blocks? With covered curb- extension stations. So the bus isn't weaving in and out of the curb lane. Make good connections at both ends and signal priority where possible.
Presto- 95% of the advantages of LRT, 5% of the cost, and without the downside.
There can only be one.
Certainly an option.
I am working on a circulator with 2 mini-buses that go Whyte-99st/scona-jasper-109st-whyte with the idea that they hit at 15min intervals and have limited stops. They would run evenings and weekends.
it's not just an option, it's the best option.
But by making this planning process an "LRT planning" study they're eliminating the best option right off the bat.
There can only be one.
I like the idea of circular transit bus route, but any chance they can move the buses to the top of the High Level Bridge? Or at least move that High Level Bridge bus stop from the left lane to the right lane next to Ezio Farone Park? Personally I think it's goofy having buses pick up passengers in the left lane then once they enter the bridge try to swing into the right lane. Plus it's not fun for passengers getting to that stop.
“You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012
This. The city needs to run a trial service on the existing streetcar line, year round at a decent frequency, to gauge how well a circulator would work. It could be done at minimal cost, likely only requiring one streetcar, which we could loan from somewhere like Vancouver did for the Olympics, and the stops would be no more than curbs with a shelter. I count 5 stops, 104st, 107st, 90ave, Grandin Station, and 100 ave. Run that for a year or so to determine if something like this is necessary.
I attended the first open house. So I had access to some of the ideas on this line some of which is also available online. As noted a bridge crossing by this line is tentative, and possibly HLB upper deck.
Theres also been substantial confusion in the role out of this as some attendees, some press, come in thinking this has something to do with the CURRENT valley line in that they are both in the Bonnie Doon area. A lot of the layout and time spent was wasted on decreasing that confusion. Even one article I saw confused this with being a Valley Line open house.
Anyway, I don't understand why a bridge crossing is required here. This by look, feel, and layout is best represented as a spur connecting line, to connect lines that will already exist. Doing anything beyond that creates a redundancy. The primary alleged need here is connecting Bonnie Doon area and projected TOD with Old Strathcona and current station at U of A. A river crossing and bringing this line north seems unnecessary to me. It seems political rather than expedient. In other words a line traversing both South and North sides of the City just to minimize any inter ward or regional squabbling.
All that said this area is best served by a simple street car design and afairc there might have been something like that, or a trolley in that area before. Doing much the same thing that this line would..
All this needs to be is a straight line going down Whyte Avenue and then veering to say Health Sciences connection.
The worst thing I came away with from the presentation is that this is planned out as the first leg in a line jutting out to Sherwood Park. As an Edmonton taxpayer I would be against that without significant cost sharing with the County of Strathcona which I stated.
Oh, and nimby is real. Among the most common comments were such things as "I live on 90Ave, and NO, I do NOT want LRT running next to my backyard.."
"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"
Run it until it's either proved itself unnecessary, or until there's a case to upgrade to something better. Like if it can't keep up despite running 40m streetcars every 5 minutes. Then you study to decide if an LRT upgrade is necessary, or if just double-tracking the easy parts and leaving it a streetcar is good enough.This. The city needs to run a trial service on the existing streetcar line, year round at a decent frequency, to gauge how well a circulator would work. It could be done at minimal cost, likely only requiring one streetcar, which we could loan from somewhere like Vancouver did for the Olympics, and the stops would be no more than curbs with a shelter. I count 5 stops, 104st, 107st, 90ave, Grandin Station, and 100 ave. Run that for a year or so to determine if something like this is necessary.
There can only be one.
^^The current LRT master plan has this line interlining with the valley line on the premise that offering a 1-seat rider worth all the downsides, both in operations where issues on one line cascade to the other, inablilty to scale services on each route to demand, and offering effectively half the frequency to through passengers. Huge extra costs and operational challenges (ETS doesn't do well with those) just to turn two 2 minute waits into a 4 minute wait.
There can only be one.
Totally agree. I think the first not-directed-to-downtown LRT should run down 137 Ave from Victoria Road, connect at Clareview, connect at the new NW line at Griesbach, take people to work through all the industrial areas along 170, and connect at WEM. More stops along the way of course. A significant amount of north side folks live east of 127 St and do the majority of their daily shopping at Clareview, Londonderry, Northgate/Town, and Skyview, and work along that stretch or in the vast industrial parks further west.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal
^I'm not sure the capacity of LRT is necessary on 137, but I agree that it's a great location for a high-frequency rapid-er line. There's the wide median in many parts that would accommodate a separated ROW, there will be two future connections to radial LRT, and it's a straight line with several destinations including Londonderry.
That's what the $$ savings of not building a Whyte LRT could do, plus other rapid services on similar corridors - 111 west of the core, 23ave, Ellerslie road once there's LRT to connect to there.
There can only be one.
^would it have to go in both directions - or could it just go in one (which would take up less road / ROW)? I guess the risk of just one is you can't then have a cross over if an accident, I'm not sure that's a major problem though.
For any transit line to be useful you want people to be able to go both ways without going to far. Separating the directions actually reduces the area that has great transit.
single-track sections can work on LRT or streetcar lines but I don't think they would be a good idea in mixed traffic where blockages are much more common.
There can only be one.
The #137 peak hour bus at Clareview is a joke. ETS could run that bus from 7am-9pm 6 days/week and it would have more ridership then most buses running at half capacity. If anything ETS could have a low floor lrt from Victoria Trail to West Edmonton mall through the industrial park even passing the scenic earth covered waste disposal mountain on the way to connect to Wem.Totally agree. I think the first not-directed-to-downtown LRT should run down 137 Ave from Victoria Road, connect at Clareview, connect at the new NW line at Griesbach, take people to work through all the industrial areas along 170, and connect at WEM. More stops along the way of course. A significant amount of north side folks live east of 127 St and do the majority of their daily shopping at Clareview, Londonderry, Northgate/Town, and Skyview, and work along that stretch or in the vast industrial parks further west.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Looks like there's a proposal to extend the Strathcona Street Car to north of Whyte.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3602275/ap...vel-streetcar/
"Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.
^ Calgary Trail and Gateway Blvd are arguably the most busiest roads in the city.
Last edited by envaneo; 17-07-2017 at 06:05 AM.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Well, it already crosses Calgary Trail. I hope they can extend the line; it would probably become busier with a better stop at Whyte.
They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?
What does Calgary Trail have to do with that proposal? The line already crosses it, with minimal impact.
Seems like a logical thing to do, and it's pretty small dollars to significantly improve the visibility and connectivity of the line. And I don't think the frequency of it is going to have any significant impact on Gateway. There's already a ton of pedestrian crossings and lights along it in that area.
Exactly. I love this idea and hope that eventually it could even continue south deeper into Strathcona junction when/if it gets built out.
Yup. Tie it into what remains of the old engine yard south of Whyte. There's much that could be done on this.
Look at Thomas H's thread the other day:
http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ght=roundhouse
Nisi Dominus Frustra
^I would kill to be able to take the LRT to the South Edmonton Common. Such a gigantic pain to get there by bus.
^ Nice idea, too. But I don't see Canadian Pacific allowing LRT on its metals. Note how LRT is planned to head south and west from Century Park over to 127 St. and south from there, and eventually to the airport via RR252 and the projected Crossroads development.
Nisi Dominus Frustra
Crucial element that should not be missed is the development of Strathcona Junction. Old Strathcona LRT cannot/should not happen until or should happen with, consideration to develop the parking lot north of Whyte on Gateway, and the railyards south of Whyte on Gateway. The "area plan" has been taking shape, and it looks like planners/community wants the most intense development to occur just south of Whyte along Calgary Trail. Area needs better transit when looking to the area in 2040.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
I would prefer a CP-line/central route to the airport over extending the existing LRT line that far.
There's an unused bridge over argyle road and extra ROW width for most of the route.
There can only be one.
A active railway line already parallels Gateway Blvd. When I was working in the area last Spring waiting for my #6 to Southgate I often had to wait by Tony Roma's there as the bus was East of the tacks on Gateway was waiting for a train to clear. That (don't know who owns it CP or CNR) but there is impact. That train crossing 51st Ave is several times a week.What does Calgary Trail have to do with that proposal? The line already crosses it, with minimal impact.
Seems like a logical thing to do, and it's pretty small dollars to significantly improve the visibility and connectivity of the line. And I don't think the frequency of it is going to have any significant impact on Gateway. There's already a ton of pedestrian crossings and lights along it in that area.
I'm not against the project. I'd just like to see the streetcar run more often instead of just the summer.
Last edited by envaneo; 17-07-2017 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Got distracted
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
No, it crosses 51 avenue.A active railway line already crosses Gateway Blvd. When I was working in the area last Spring waiting for my #6 to Southgate I often had to wait by Tony Roma's there as the bus was East of the tacks on Gateway was waiting for a train to clear. That (don't know who owns it CP or CNR) but there is impact. That train crossing 51st Ave is several times a week.What does Calgary Trail have to do with that proposal? The line already crosses it, with minimal impact.
Seems like a logical thing to do, and it's pretty small dollars to significantly improve the visibility and connectivity of the line. And I don't think the frequency of it is going to have any significant impact on Gateway. There's already a ton of pedestrian crossings and lights along it in that area.
I'm not against the project. I'd just like to see the streetcar run more often instead of just the summer.
$2.00$2.25$2.50$2.75$2.85$3.00$3.20$3.25
^ Oops, my typo. Must have got distracted. Yes I know the rail way lines runs North/South. I said it crosses 51st ave. We were watching the Holiday train from the office building I work in this last December.
Last edited by envaneo; 17-07-2017 at 02:33 PM.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
I tried looking around but can't seem to find anything. Does anyone have a link to the current map to this Centre lrt proposal?
Thanks
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
There is no map. This is the first round of discussions, from which the first maps will be produced.
The City of Edmonton is studying possible routes for a future LRT route that would connect Strathcona, Downtown, Bonnie Doon and east Edmonton. The study would look at options that could best link riders with key destinations on both sides of the river and to ultimately determine stop locations along the way.https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...lrt-study.aspxTimeline:
Our study began in June 2017 and the recommended concept plan including route selection, stop locations and alignment (where the tracks fit within the route) will be presented to Council for approval before the end of 2018.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
^ I realize this project is only in phase 1:Strategy. I was kind of hoping to see a initial concept map. Thanks for the quotes and the link and I'm now on the email list.
Last edited by envaneo; 17-07-2017 at 03:08 PM.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
The closest is Downtown - Bonnie Doon (via Valley line) - University (via Whyte Ave) - Downtown (via 109 st ish)
twitter.com/dbayeg
So is the idea here to use the existing track that the street car is using? Or that corridor?
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
That's part of what they're looking at now. How is it going to get over there and how will it go from A to B to C
^ Are any of those maps from the open houses on display online someplace?
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
How would they go about connecting the high floor trains and the low floor trains at the stations as they do on the map?
Go down a few dark alleys.
I'm guessing the same way the Valley interacts with Metro/Capital at Churchill, where the stations & stops are stacked on top of each other (or are otherwise adjacent) & you gotta get yourself from Line A to Line B with a short walk.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
One last open house for this round.
Saturday, July 22, 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., St. Anthony District Archives and Meeting Centre, 10425 84th Ave.
I looked at the online survey, and I think one of the toughest challenges will be determining whether this line should go through the University Area. It's at least a 15 minute trip from the U of A to Strathcona, and LRT would be great.
"Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.
The walking distance from U of A to Strathcona is 15mins for me. Most people going from one to the other are much younger than I am. What problem, really, is this route solving? If anything being a sedentary student at U of A its actually nice to get out for a walk. I used to walk home to Jasper Place sometimes if it was nice out when I was a student. For sure we did the times we closed the Power Plant and the busses weren't running anymore.
In anycase the Strathcona to HLB that the streetcar takes is plenty close enough. That's like 2-3 blocks to campus. A campus wherein the walks from one main campus class to another can be as much as around 8blocks.
"if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"
^That connection and the areas and routes in that area are a very large question with few solid answers, in my opinion. It's tough... do you make the low-floor to high-floor connection at Grandin? Or do you fully connect and deal with route issues by trying to tie the Strathcona LRT with the University/Garneau area? The dual question then is if LRT does not run down Whyte Ave, then will an efficient Whyte Ave bus run down the road connecting Strathcona to Bonnie Doon and further east, and University and further west? And if it does run down Whyte, then how do you connect a collection of areas that almost demand a few zig-zags? I just simply don't see an easy answer. This will take many years before it's built, but I see a bigger question in the meantime which is can we improve Whyte Ave transit connectivity, efficiency, and service now? Then based on that service, experiment with some dedicated routes even, and do pilot traffic studies for 2-3 years.
As I wrote in the survey and to Council and City Staff... this needs to be a part of Plan Whyte, ETS, and a bigger conversation on the future use of Whyte Avenue.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
It seems to me that any route along Whyte Ave is going to impact several major intersections really slowing this line down. This Centre LRT should be abandoned and coe should just go ahead with building the bridge over the Yellowhead tracks to 27th Ave and out to Campbell road. The St Albert route serves more people and less of a logistical nightmare.
IMO
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Mind you this is like a Edmonton 2040 transportation plan. I think through this process we will see what and what is not feasible in 20 years.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
Uh-huh.
The Centre LRT line once the kinks are ironed out could be in the build phase by 2020. Centre LRT goes to council by ~ this time next year. Meanwhile St. Albert gets the short end of the stick. COE would get more bang for their LRT buck because the St.Albert line not only goes through the periphery of Blatchford to St. Albert but completes the Metro line. Both these lines though could be built way before 20 years, even within ten. In the end its about priorities, I guess.
I get what your saying though.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
I'm curious what the city gains from running LRT out to St Albert. All that does it make it easier for residents of St Albert to work in Edmonton. They don't pay taxes to the City of Edmonton, so unless St Albert is going to foot a lot of the bill, why would the City pay for a line running out there?
As for Whyte Ave - it seems as though they're really stuck running it down Whyte itself.
They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?
A line out to SA connects a lot of people in Castle downs and like I said above goes through Blatchford. SA's portion would be relatively small.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
I'd like to see the Metro line extended to Castle Downs at the least. Past there, do it once St. Albert is ready to build their line. If we build it out to Campbell road with no plan in place for SA to continue it, it'll be stuck there for a long, long time. SA will just move their transit centre to the new terminus and let it stay like that.
Metro line out to Campbell road could be the end of the line much like Valley would be out to Lewis Estates. The way things are going anything out past the Yellowhead is along, long time. Heck COE cant even decide which option they want to do with Metro at Glenrose.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
I attended the open house last Thursday at City Hall.
If the number of consultants in attendance is anything to by, it seems the City has already made the decision to waste a billion or more dollars on a street car that will provide inferior service to that which already exists.
The Capital Line already connects the Downtown to the University/Health Sciences areas. The #57 already connects in the other direction, travelling from University Station along Whyte Avenue down Scona Road back Downtown to the CN Tower loop. The #52 also circulates between Downtown and Old Strathcona using the HLB Bridge and Saskatchewan Drive then SB down 104 Street. The NB trip from Old Strathcona uses Queen Elizabeth Park Road and the Walterdale Bridge to get back Downtown.
These bus routes are both superior and more direct than the proposed Central LRT which goes farther east and then requires a transfer at Bonnie Doon to get Downtown.
^ Cant argue that logic.
Was anyone at the open house on Saturday July 22nd, anything to report?
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
^^ I feel I agree. AS per my previous comment: "in the meantime which is can we improve Whyte Ave transit connectivity, efficiency, and service now? Then based on that service, experiment with some dedicated routes even, and do pilot traffic studies for 2-3 years."
There are bus routes that already exist but are working against one another along Whyte in the busiest areas. Routes have poor frequency and the stops need more emphasis/impact/space and some great wayfinding (a separate project in the works, I know). Maybe a few dedicated bus routes through the area/to Downtown. And a real question and answer on the future of what Whyte Ave will look like with all modes of transportation and use.
If these conversations do not happen before - or even during - this exercise... then we are putting this LRT, and the routes, before any strategic and holistic thought.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
^The 57 could be run more frequently, perhaps even matching the frequency of the existing LRT line between Downtown and the University, at a tiny fraction of the cost of bringing a street car across the river and running it down Whyte Avenue.
In terms of wayfinding, no need to reinvent the wheel. Use the Transit App which can be downloaded for free from the Play Store or AppStore. The GPS instantly finds you, identifies the nearest bus stop, and then tells you in real-time which buses are coming when, their travel direction and destination.
Even if the Strathcona LRT is built, a lot of support routes will be needed. For example, along 109 Street and 99 Street.
In the meantime, bus service should be stepped up along Whyte, and transit priority signals could be added to key intersections like 99, Gateway, 104 and 109 Streets.
"Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.
I forget the documents on CP's potential leaving portions of their railyards in Irvine, but I hope this route considers the Strathcona Junction densification strategy, and the future road network of that area. High speed rail station (many many years from now) south of Whyte in the Irvine railyards is more of a urban design and transportation benefit than crossing over the High Level. Concepts I can think of for the area are akin to a mesh of the Whitecaps development near Waterfront Station and the False Creek Flats Area Plan by the Pacific Central Station both in Vancouver. Major rail connections are made through PC Station in Vancouver, though it's well outside the downtown peninsula, and is adjacent to major city transit. Major infill and densification is occurring around CP Station, with Olympic Village, or South False Creek, leading the way along Main Street.
I'd see the old rail ROW in Strathcona being used for LRT, with major stops at Grandin/Legislature, and Whyte Avenue between 103 and 102 streets. Seeing this is a very forward thinking plan by the City... the idea should present itself to allow a "transit hub", underground pedway beneath Whyte to a HSR station or bus loop, which would be north of 76 avenue. There is a bigger conversation the City is not engaging with that will lead to issues down the line. I've written and responded to the City and do not want a half-designed LRT running down Whyte when it looks like it could easily be more efficient bus, or BRT.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
Instead of building a new LRT, there should be an extension of the street car system. take you from grandin to whyte ave. This would eliminate the need for a new LRT for a long time. The issue is getting to Whyte from downtown, or from the university. The amount of busses and frequency, in my opinion, from the university, is fine how it is now. like seriously it takes 10 minutes to walk. If the street car extended all the way to Whyte ave with a little platform where the public bathrooms are... that would be amazing. Edmonton should look into more street cars instead of LRT. LRT takes way to long, and even this "urban low floor" ****... just watch, it will never work.
How about improved transit service between downtown and Whyte Ave, full stop? I checked out some bus routes from my nearest bus stop to the Fringe site, and let's just say I might as well walk.
“You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012
The #52 is a pretty good bus from downtown to Southgate. The #70 is also good from Central station right down #99.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
^
The 7 will take you from Grant MacEwan and Churchill Square to run all along Whyte Avenue, ending up at the University, and the turning around and doing it all again. It terminates at Jasper Place and the University, so its not obvious at first glance it goes down Whyte Ave, unless you know the route. ETS should consider running a stub version of the route during the Fringe and other Whyte Ave based festivals, running betweenGrant Mac and the U of A on the same route, as it would work nicely to cover transport for that occasion, filling the same gap for east downtown as the street car does for west downtown.
For those busses it's a matter of frequency and being caught in traffic and behind other buses and stuck on Whyte due to the planning and design of other routes/the road... The 52 is a fairly slow and lousy route with poor frequency but the connections are good. The #7 has not so great frequency off peak times and gets caught in with the traffic and other buses on Whyte.
Which lays the facts down. Why LRT in this area - I want to see why. As well as is the City ready to have a conversation on the future design and use of Whyte Ave?
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
^^The 57 already runs between the U of A, along Whyte Avenue and 99 Street to the CN Tower bus loop, and then returns in the opposite direction. The 57 is a very nice complement to the Capital Line and combined with it already forms a very effective central area circulator. If a person doesn't want to walk a few blocks the 7 takes you from Whyte Avenue to MacEwan down 104 Avenue. Not that there couldn't be further improvements. But there are already so many good transit options between pretty much anywhere Downtown and the Fringe site, I don't know how anyone who does a modicum of planning can claim otherwise.
Also, not sure how many have been following this and seen this preliminary plan. Set to go before council in November. So new zoning along Whyte should be in for 2018.
https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...ngagement.aspx
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
I just received this in my email moments ago:Thank you for your continued interest in the Centre LRT Study. We're writing to let you know that the timeline for the project has changed from what was previously shared.Based on stakeholder meetings and feedback received during the first phase of engagement, the project timeline has been adjusted to allow for additional engagement.The preferred LRT route will be presented for public feedback in November 2017 and to City Council in winter 2018 (originally planned to take place before the end of 2017). This will be followed by the development of Concept Plan options, including stop locations and alignment, which will be presented for public feedback in spring/summer 2018 and to City Council prior to the end of 2018. If you have any additional comments, please feel free to contact the project team by emailing [email protected] or calling 311.Best regards,Centre LRT Study Project Team
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
The main issue of traveling around Strathcona right now is the odd scheduling of buses- the 7 is perfectly fine, and a VERY quick ride between Strathcona and the middle of downtown... but it only comes every half an hour 90% of the time. Many times, it's actually faster to ride all the way to the U of A, then take the LRT.
It transit was a bit more common (and spaced out properly- see my topic about "fleets" of buses), it'd be much quicker to any LRT station, and we wouldn't even need an expensive LRT station in the area, which would ABSOLUTELY mess up traffic in an already clogged-up area. I can't think of anywhere close that wouldn't mess up the area- you'd have to just close off a side street (and there aren't many North of Whyte).
I do like the "streetcar downtown" idea, which might be even faster.
It’s going down Whyte.
“At this point in the study, Administration is confident the preferred east/west connection of the route will be located on Whyte Avenue rather than on 76 Avenue.”
https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...lrt-study.aspx
I don't think this line should be even be in the forefront of our minds. We need to get the existing line to Ellerslie and on to Heritage, and the NAIT line should be expanded into the NW if not into St. Albert - and of course the east/west low floor line should be completed and evaluated for it's effectiveness.
I don't see the point of having a train along Whyte just to connect University to Bonnie Doon. They keep wanting to use at-grade trains and using 'creative signal timing' - you can employ 'creative signal timing' with buses as well so they can preempt a signal so they can face more greens as they approach upcoming intersections. No different than a train. And it will cost <1% of the total cost of the train line. Give a bus the power to pre-empt signals and it will only take about 15 minutes to get from the Bonnie Doon LRT stop to the University stop...no quicker than a train line.
^Completely agree about Whyte Avenue.
Plus the folly of building duplicate infrastructure to connect the Downtown, Legislature and the University when the Capital Line already does this much more efficiently than a on-street alignment ever could.
Can someone on City Council please take the lead in stopping the Administration before additional billions of our federal, provincial and municipal tax dollars are wasted on this foolish scheme?
Me three. They can think about building an LRT or tram if it ever gets to the point where good, frequent (like, 2 minutes) bus service is over capacity. Until then, a bus can do everything that an LRT can do for a fraction of the cost.
There can only be one.
I'd rather we get the tax dollars up for grabs then Calgary. Sure I'm a fan boy LRT advocate. This project is worthy of our support.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
I would rather we use the money for something more worthwhile. Like doing our other lrt plans right.
There can only be one.
The city of Edmonton F--d up with the purchasing of the Thales CBTC signaling system. It wasn't designed to function that way. The CBTC system is designed to function like the Vancouver Sky Train system.
Here are some excerpts by Councilman Caterina and others:
“Going back to 2010, how would someone make that decision to use an unproven technology that wasn’t meant for this particular system?”
Councillor Mike Nickel said this in frustration: “And it’s not even designed for the crossing systems that we put in place,”
The CBTC signaling system is used in over 130 systems and Thales is responsible for about 40 of them despite the incident that happened in Singapore. Imo (and I don't claim to be an expert) the COE should just cut its losses pay Thales what they owe them and move on. That way we can focus on getting Metro fixed and get the LRT out to Saint Alberta and Centre LRT.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3901285/m...ng-big-reveal/
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Update from the City is in that they will go ahead with plans to put the LRT down Whyte Ave.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
love how we're haphazardly laying tracks almost a century later over prior streetcar routes.
Isn't the decision at this point more like any higher order transit in the area will use whyte, and not 76ave?
There can only be one.
The study, as it currently stands, is for low-floor LRT much like the Valley Line, but through the process I wouldn't be surprised if it merely turns into an express bus like the 100...
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
Are they even considering putting it under Whyte?
^That conversation will be coming up this year if a review of the at-grade low-floor concept should be taken a part in pieces or all together along Whyte.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
At what abt $200M/km? Its bad enough imo "city planners" want to run the line down Whyte Ave at all.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Whyte is where it would belong, if it were justified.
It's not.
It's being planned on the basis of "we want more LRT" as if LRT were an end in itself and not something that's supposed to serve a purpose. This is ditching the 10-speed and buying a new BMX because that's what all the cool kids are riding.
Why?
Because we want it.
I we were asking the rational, responsible questions we wouldn't be thinking of LRT on whyte for a lifetime.
If we were asking the right questions we would have articulated buses with signal priority running every 5 minutes or better and packed at rush hour before we would even think of LRT. Then, when we're trying to figure out how to increase capacity LRT might be the solution
There can only be one.
I love LRT and I'm skeptical about running it on Whyte. Whyte is still the major east-west corridor for the area. Unless another east-west route is developed, Whyte is still necessary for vehicle traffic including emergency vehicles and buses. I can see how congested it is whenever I ride the bus.
I think parking will go if 2 lanes in each direction for personal cars is to be maintained, for either dedicated bus or LRT. I've been trying to figure out the City's response on that front. It's also my understanding this isn't intended to be built for at least 2 decades for it's one of the last legs/priorities under the 2040 Transportation Plan.
Live and love... your neighbourhood.
At a couple buses every 15 minutes we're a long way from needing dedicated lanes at this point.
There can only be one.
In a shorter time, there are periodic pushes to create little "pop up" spaces in the current parking spaces. So, within the twenty years, you might wind up having to find space for traffic, the LRT and the pop up spaces. The parking can still happen in the gaps.
I think the priority should be to develop another east-west corridor for traffic before planning on yet more programming for Whyte.
Edit: Wrong thread, meant west line. Admin can delete this post.
Last edited by Ustauk; 04-01-2018 at 06:22 PM.
As much as I support LRT expansion in the city, I really don't think that LRT down Whyte ave at grade is a good idea. If they want to really improve transit service on 82nd ave they should have the #4 continue service as it is now except stop having these bus convoys of #4 hop scotching each other. Then also add a new service, I'll call it the #400. This would be either an articulated bus or a double decker bus or an articulated bus with multiple entry points. Its route would only have a limited amount of stops like an LRT. From east to west from Bonnie Doon to the U of A; Bonnie Doon, French Quarter, 99st, 104 st, 109st. Health Sciences, U of A bus terminal. This will solve the problems on Whyte and cost a whole lot less than all the LRT infrastructure needed to be built.
Man, have you been following the "Fleets" thread on this board? It's about EXACTLY THAT- they send the 4, 7/106, 94 & 57 all at the exact same time down the street, so that if you miss the bus, you miss all four buses, and then 15 people pile into the first one in the convoy at every stop, while the last one is basically empty.
I've long believed in "Express" buses being more common. Send one that stops halfway down Whyte, at the U of A, then moves right to West Edmonton Mall with maybe a handful of stops along the way in a semi-straight line (as opposed to the 30-minute crawl it takes now). Then there's multiple ways to take the same buses.
I can't even imagine how an LRT platform in that neighborhood would work. Gut the "Steel Park" area and move it along the side? Annoy every single person who paid a LOT of money for a house in a very expensive neighborhood, only to see a big LRT track shoved in front of their house or condo? It'll be a disaster.
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